Author Topic: Invite-system endangers anonymity  (Read 2197 times)

staind

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Invite-system endangers anonymity
« on: November 08, 2013, 03:37:40 am »
While i was glad that the registration has been closed, i am very displeased with this invite system.
I would like to use it but I simply can't. The whole "being held accountable thing" is fine as a spammer-protection but a disgrace anonymity wise.

There is no proper way I could invite an associate in good conscience. I wouldn't want to disclose a connection nor would i unnecessarily want to disclose my username to him. I have no guarantee such a thing would not happen.

I thought about asking someone else on this forum, but let's assume my associate becomes a vendor and get's busted and LE get's hold of the database. I don't want to endanger that random forum member either.


I know those cases are very hypothetical and i believe admins and moderators are acting in good faith, but please reconsider the invite system. I am not on facebook for the same reasons. My connections are none of silkroads business.

/rant over ::)   -   sorry

I am very interested in your opinions
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DoctorClu

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2013, 03:44:31 am »
At no point does it reveal your username to them or theirs to you. Hell if you send the key to them via anonymous channels, no identities are compromised.
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staind

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2013, 03:49:54 am »
At no point does it reveal your username to them or theirs to you. Hell if you send the key to them via anonymous channels, no identities are compromised.

But the Moderators can check the link. Who can ensure me that no moderator account will be compromised?
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DoctorClu

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2013, 04:00:48 am »
At no point does it reveal your username to them or theirs to you. Hell if you send the key to them via anonymous channels, no identities are compromised.

But the Moderators can check the link. Who can ensure me that no moderator account will be compromised?

I have no idea what the mods can see, but I get your point there. Mods?

They have access to change your password as well as a myriad of other things, but I don't see them being able to see who invited who.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2013, 04:05:23 am »
I believe the invites can be tied into your forum username as responsibility for whom you invite.

I don't see how it compromises anything unless you compromised your trust by inviting Coachella(s), Scammers, LE(O) and etc.

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Fezzik

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2013, 04:09:07 am »
I'm glad DPR posted some invite codes on twitter, took a while but I found one that worked. I didn't know anyone that was a forum member and didn't want to put myself out there asking people I don't know for one.

For the record I was a long time member before, but I didn't have contact with guys outside of the forums. Glad to finally be back, been lurking since the site went down.

staind

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2013, 04:11:52 am »
I believe the invites can be tied into your forum username as responsibility for whom you invite.

I don't see how it compromises anything unless you compromised your trust by inviting Coachella(s), Scammers, LE(O) and etc.

Honestly, I would consider such an information as compromised the second 4-5 people i don't know have free access to it. No need for an actual moderator account to be stolen or whatever. Vendors are asked to write DPR a pm via the forums, so they would need an account. There is something on the line.



Registrations are now possible, but only if the user has an invite code. Those who invite spammers or trolls who have their accounts deleted will also face repercussions so please only invite those who are customers or associates.

Yep, they can check who invites who.
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DoctorClu

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2013, 04:17:37 am »
I believe the invites can be tied into your forum username as responsibility for whom you invite.

I don't see how it compromises anything unless you compromised your trust by inviting Coachella(s), Scammers, LE(O) and etc.

Honestly, I would consider such an information as compromised the second 4-5 people i don't know have free access to it. No need for an actual moderator account to be stolen or whatever. Vendors are asked to write DPR a pm via the forums, so they would need an account. There is something on the line.



Registrations are now possible, but only if the user has an invite code. Those who invite spammers or trolls who have their accounts deleted will also face repercussions so please only invite those who are customers or associates.

Yep, they can check who invites who.

Didn't notice that. +1.

This does comprise a layer of security in the event that a mod's account is improperly accessed unless only DPR has visibility. If that account is comprised though, you have much more to worry about.

Sorry, mods. I am going to report my own post since this bloke does have a point.
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whom

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2013, 04:20:04 am »
I completely understand why they went to the invite system, but you're right about the anonymity.  If there's enough data for administration to figure out that I gave an invite to a spammer, there's enough data for whoever controls the server tomorrow to start drawing lines between names.   Guessing each user created basically has a "daddy" in the database, tracking who issued the invite that the user came from.

I've solved that problem by not giving anybody any invites.    Requiring invites seems like  a temporary rather than permanent situation, but maybe I missed something.

If it's temporary, it's probably not a huge deal, just a quick fix to an annoying problem until a better method is deployed.   But long-term, it's probably the wrong way to solve the problem.

Your other option is to give the invite to your buddy, then after you're sure he's used it, post it somewhere publicly as up-for-grabs.  Everybody will say, "Damn, somebody beat me to it!".

At the point where somebody starts SilkRoadInviteFog, I think it may have gone too far.

Sarge

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2013, 04:26:15 am »
If your so concerned about invite codes. Don't invite anybody.

Only DPR has access to see who invited who. And we wont hold you accountable to your invites unless you have invited coachello or a spammer/scammer multiple times.

If your concerned, don't invite anybody. Feel free to ask me for an invite code via PM and you can pass that on, so there is no link to your name.

I think your concern about anonymity are a little far fetched. It would involve:
* You inviting a vendor
* Vendor getting busted
* Forums being taken down by police
* police investigating all the invites and links
* police finding that you invited said vendor then deciding to follow this up
* police somehow linking your anonymous nick name to your real life nick
* police finding something to bust you on? Inviting someone is not illegal

« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 04:29:14 am by Sarge »
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DoctorClu

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2013, 04:30:06 am »
If your so concerned about invite codes. Don't invite anybody.

Only DPR has access to see who invited who. And wont wont hold you accountable to your invites unless you have invited coachello or a spammer/scammer multiple times.

If your concerned, don't invite anybody. Feel free to ask me for an invite code via PM and you can pass that on, so there is no link to your name.

Thanks, Sarge. If only DPR can see them, than as I said, we would have much more to worry about than the invite system.

Is there a data retention policy for the invites?

While far fetched, these are paranoid times we live in and while I have faith in you guys and DPR, in the end all empires fall...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 04:32:02 am by DoctorClu »
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staind

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2013, 04:49:21 am »
Your other option is to give the invite to your buddy, then after you're sure he's used it, post it somewhere publicly as up-for-grabs.  Everybody will say, "Damn, somebody beat me to it!".

;D I srsly thought about doing that. Good point


Thank you DoctorClu for your opinion.

If your so concerned about invite codes. Don't invite anybody.

Only DPR has access to see who invited who. And we wont hold you accountable to your invites unless you have invited coachello or a spammer/scammer multiple times.

If your concerned, don't invite anybody. Feel free to ask me for an invite code via PM and you can pass that on, so there is no link to your name.

I think your concern about anonymity are a little far fetched.

Thank you for the offer Sarge, i might put you up to it.

I think everybody who is planning to do something illegal here should feel somewhat concerned and I think vendors who want to register should put some thought into it. My concerns are far fatched, yes.

But information being unnecessarily hoarded makes me a little nervous. If we'd be assured it would be deleted after a week or so, that would already put me at ease.
I just think it is an bad development that must not continue.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 04:56:30 am by staind »
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DoctorClu

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2013, 04:56:05 am »
I agree. If it's sole purpose is to punish those who invite spammers, I don't see the value in retaining that data beyond a week or the point where the new user has the ability to generate invites themselves.
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DigitalHippie

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2013, 05:33:37 am »
Noob question, but what are the invite codes for? When I signed up, it didn't ask me for an access code and when I go to the registration form, it doesn't ask me for one.

LazyCow

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2013, 05:34:37 am »
I can view who invited me.

If you look at Profile > Summary you can see who invited you.
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lithonius

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2013, 05:37:52 am »

Only DPR has access to see who invited who. And we wont hold you accountable to your invites unless you have invited coachello or a spammer/scammer multiple times.


Curious why DPR pasted a number of invite codes on his twitter then? Opening the forums to anyone on the Clearnet that was following. I would assume Coachella/HH/etc may be amongst us already, and certainly LE, at least using any one of those many codes DPR provided to the masses?
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DoctorClu

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2013, 05:39:50 am »
I can view who invited me.

If you look at Profile > Summary you can see who invited you.

I cant see that as no one invited me, but that poses even more of a threat being a pointless and dangerous "feature".
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Sarge

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2013, 06:00:27 am »
These forums aren't exactly "Private".

I believe (although this is not confirmed) that DPR will be giving anyone who makes a purchase on the market place an auto-invite.

We just want to cut down on spammers & trolls. We will never keep LE out..  Now if we find a spammer, we can delete them, then they have to go through the rigger of finding another invite.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 06:01:21 am by Sarge »
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DoctorClu

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2013, 06:05:29 am »
Certainly not private but had this same system been in place prior to SR 1.0, I'd be scared shitless if I happened to be the bloke who invited Nod.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2013, 06:06:04 am »
I personally think its a brilliant feature for helping weed out the spam and shills.  just glad i got in when i did. :D

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Sarge

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2013, 06:10:01 am »
Certainly not private but had this same system been in place prior to SR 1.0, I'd be scared shitless if I happened to be the bloke who invited Nod.

if your the person who invited nod, all they would have is your nick name?

Dont you think police would rather go after a 1% Vendor, than some anonymous nick name who invited a 1% er?

I dont get why you think the cops would chase you down just because you invited someone to the forums.
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broken string

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2013, 06:14:29 am »
Sarge - would you be so kind as to PM me an invitation code? I plan on handing it off to a vendor on the old site that wishes to register here.
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staind

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2013, 06:16:06 am »
I can view who invited me.

If you look at Profile > Summary you can see who invited you.
Can anybody confirm that?

These forums aren't exactly "Private".

I believe (although this is not confirmed) that DPR will be giving anyone who makes a purchase on the market place an auto-invite.

We just want to cut down on spammers & trolls. We will never keep LE out..  Now if we find a spammer, we can delete them, then they have to go through the rigger of finding another invite.

The forum was never private, but anonymous.

But yes, it was terrible. Something had to be done against  the trolls. It was unbearable. I don't think this is the right approach tho.


Sarge, lets assume this is your only account and you would like to create a private one to enhance your anonymity somehow. Would you invite yourself?
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Sarge

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2013, 06:19:18 am »
get to 50 posts and invite yourself?

I dont know if the invite only system is permanent or not, TBH I haven't had a time to scratch myself, or talk to DPR about it. Ive just been verifying vendors all day every day ;)
I will discuss it with him so I can give you all some better answers.
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LazyCow

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2013, 06:21:48 am »
I can view who invited me.

If you look at Profile > Summary you can see who invited you.
Can anybody confirm that?

Just give it a test and see if it works!
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broken string

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2013, 06:22:11 am »
Well, he said registration is only closed for the time being. To be honest I would not mind keeping it closed and just allowing any user with a purchase on the market to generate an invitation key.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2013, 06:25:17 am »
I would agree that it would be beneficial to keep it invite only. It may bar some people out, but once they make a purchase that would change.
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DoctorClu

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2013, 06:25:35 am »
get to 50 posts and invite yourself?

I dont know if the invite only system is permanent or not, TBH I haven't had a time to scratch myself, or talk to DPR about it. Ive just been verifying vendors all day every day ;)
I will discuss it with him so I can give you all some better answers.

What? You just gave a key out to someone who asked for it in another topic. Did my incessant rambling cause a change of heart? :)
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broken string

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2013, 06:26:29 am »
I think he was referring to the other person's question. The bastard did not send me a key tho. So maybe.

EDIT: Oh shit. He sent me two. I'll go ahead and test that being able to tell who invited you thing and send the other one to this vendor. Thanks Sarge.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 06:29:31 am by broken string »
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staind

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2013, 06:28:08 am »
I can view who invited me.

If you look at Profile > Summary you can see who invited you.
Can anybody confirm that?

Just give it a test and see if it works!
That would be bad news indeed.
Can't create a key yet, I'll have to wait ~20 hours to be able to test that. Thank you for that information.
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Sarge

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2013, 06:29:43 am »
I was answering a question of how someone would do it.

PM this bastard and Ill give you a key!  ;)
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2013, 06:32:09 am »
This is interesting. I generated a key for myself and checked in Summary but it doesnt show DoctorClu. It shows some other random user.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2013, 06:33:18 am »
This is interesting. I generated a key for myself and checked in Summary but it doesnt show DoctorClu. It shows some other random user.

I don't know about you guys, but I like this bloke.
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Sarge

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2013, 06:35:33 am »
what user does it say? out of curiosity
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2013, 06:36:07 am »
This is interesting. I generated a key for myself and checked in Summary but it doesnt show DoctorClu. It shows some other random user.
Sarge generated the key used to register this account, and unfortunately it does tell who invited me:
http://torimagesbp2vt3u.onion/i/EUzkJ.png

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2013, 06:36:21 am »
Would you prefer I PM you the username?
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staind

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2013, 06:36:52 am »
Comfirmed, invited by Sarge.
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broken string

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2013, 06:38:19 am »
I have brought shame to my family.
"I thought all of this was absolutely hysterical at first, couldn't stop laughing, and kept thinking, 'Where is the crazy beatnik that made this terrible student art film that I'm stuck in?'"

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2013, 06:41:06 am »
:-\

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2013, 06:42:43 am »
what user does it say? out of curiosity

It is showing oldschoolau invited my other account.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2013, 06:43:52 am »
I don't know why it matters if they know who invited them.

arent the person you give your invite code too, going to know you gave them an invite?

All I can tell you is, I cant tell you who invited you.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2013, 06:46:34 am »
Mainly if we don't want the invitee to know the username of the inviter. It serves no purpose except to provide a possible security hole.
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staind

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2013, 06:49:15 am »
I would want to avoid giving that information to associates I only know in the real world. None of their business and most wouldn't even want to know.


Sarge, once again. Would you want to give an associate in your real surrounding that information, as Sarge? Dont think so ;D.




edit:
Now imagine a vendor on SR giving a key to a reallife associate without knowing that fact...Shitstorm ensured.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 06:56:18 am by staind »
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2013, 06:54:25 am »
If you have invites available to use, yet you are concerned about the potential security issues that result from using your own invites then I suggest you contact a mod or DPR himself for one of their invite codes. I'm sure if you explain your feelings and ask nicely they will consider it.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2013, 03:34:39 pm »
I think the primary question is:

Is the invitation process a long-term part of SRF/SR, or is it just a short-term solution to spamming (and possibly to help restrict growth to a managable rate)?

My primary dislike for the invitation process is that it's generating metadata and connections between individuals, and the risk to users from that metadata certainly outweighs the threat of spamming/trolling.   

My secondary dislike is that (if implemented long-term) it takes SRF from an anonymous, public forum, where anybody can participate, and moves it closer towards becoming just a SR marketplace forum, where to get an invite, you need to either already know somebody, or buy something from SR.   Sure, I have an account now,  but six months ago, I wouldn't have, and I wouldn't have known anybody to get an invite from.  And since I'm not buying anything from marketplaces, I probably wouldn't have gone to the trouble to join SRF.

I've always liked that SRF is *more* than just a SR marketplace forum. 

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2013, 03:50:26 pm »
I agree, invite system draws unnecessary correlations and keeps out people who may not have bought on SR yet but are looking to learn and participate.

how exactly are those people supposed to get invite codes if they cant msg us? fucking retarded is what DPR will be if he keeps this system. Using a shotgun to kill a gnat.

blue

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2013, 04:16:30 pm »
I do not think spam is a good enough reason for this, there is so many other ways to protect against spam. And user security should always be a higher priority.
Old silkroad did not have to do this. This is not right. It gives me honeypot vibes.

And why use invite only at the launch of the site? Many people have already turned around and left this place because of that.
Silkroad is getting a bad reputation already because of this. The first impression is very important for the future, and this is not a good start.

Using traceable invites is bad OPSEC, say what you want but it is not optimal anonymity and security. And that makes me and others feel less secure using this system.
If admins and mods do not think this is insecure, what other security and anonymity do they sacrifice in the same way that we do not know about?

These forums aren't exactly "Private".

I believe (although this is not confirmed) that DPR will be giving anyone who makes a purchase on the market place an auto-invite.

We just want to cut down on spammers & trolls. We will never keep LE out..  Now if we find a spammer, we can delete them, then they have to go through the rigger of finding another invite.
Alright, in the future forum accounts might be connected to your PURCHASE on market? Red flags popping up here!
This is a serious security issue. Even thinking about implementing a feature like this shows a insecure thinking.
If fed did not get enough last time, the will sure have this time.
A nice red thread to follow the users activity throughout the forum->market->bitcoin transfers connecting everything nicely..

Is this an anonymous market of a fucking honeypot? What do you think users will think about this place DPR? Seriously.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 04:30:08 pm by blue »

hobgoblin

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2013, 04:33:43 pm »
The real question is...

Why are the powers that be so afraid of one spammer who posts about all kinds of stupid conspiracy shit that an invite system is necessary? It makes it seem like there is something to his stupid shit afterall. What other conclusion can be drawn? that spammer guy can and does spam on other places.

Seriously makes people wonder who you are so scared of or what's going on being the scenes. 

SR is becoming more and more like the governments they are fighting against. Libertarianism ain't shit when it comes down to it. Or maybe they aren't following it. Either way... suss.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2013, 04:38:08 pm »
Got an invite from DPR - an I am proud of it^^
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hobgoblin

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2013, 04:40:53 pm »

I have no idea what the mods can see, but I get your point there. Mods?

They have access to change your password as well as a myriad of other things, but I don't see them being able to see who invited who.

when i click on my username it takes me to my profile summery. mine looks like this..


Username:
    nick Cotton
Posts:
    82 (41 per day)
Karma:
    +7/-4
Invited By:
    ***********

And there we have it.

Trust. A state of mind that wants to believe even when everything points the other fucking way.
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Hiniguel

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2013, 04:45:03 pm »
If your so concerned about invite codes. Don't invite anybody.

Only DPR has access to see who invited who. And we wont hold you accountable to your invites unless you have invited coachello or a spammer/scammer multiple times.

If your concerned, don't invite anybody. Feel free to ask me for an invite code via PM and you can pass that on, so there is no link to your name.

I think your concern about anonymity are a little far fetched. It would involve:
* You inviting a vendor
* Vendor getting busted
* Forums being taken down by police
* police investigating all the invites and links
* police finding that you invited said vendor then deciding to follow this up
* police somehow linking your anonymous nick name to your real life nick
* police finding something to bust you on? Inviting someone is not illegal


Exactly.

I mean we are greatful for the OP's thoughts and pointing it out, but it's an unneccesary worry.


That's like if I give somebody their first ever hit of Coke (even know they've asked me for it) and them becoming addicted to Coke and becoming big time dealers and getting caught and then blaming you because you gave them their first line.


If you invite me here, and I decide to vend it doesn't mean you have anything to do with my vending operation.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2013, 04:50:42 pm »
So...people actually follow this site/DPR on Twitter and are worried about anonymity?  ???

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2013, 05:13:47 pm »

I have no idea what the mods can see, but I get your point there. Mods?

They have access to change your password as well as a myriad of other things, but I don't see them being able to see who invited who.

when i click on my username it takes me to my profile summery. mine looks like this..


Username:
    nick Cotton
Posts:
    82 (41 per day)
Karma:
    +7/-4
Invited By:
    ***********

And there we have it.

Trust. A state of mind that wants to believe even when everything points the other fucking way.

Actually, as Sarge stated, mods do not have access to see who invited who. The only ones that can are you and DPR. I just don't see the reason for the user to see it.
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blue

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2013, 05:20:26 pm »
I do not think spam is a good enough reason for this, there is so many other ways to protect against spam. And user security should always be a higher priority.
Old silkroad did not have to do this. This is not right. It gives me honeypot vibes.

And why use invite only at the launch of the site? Many people have already turned around and left this place because of that.
Silkroad is getting a bad reputation already because of this. The first impression is very important for the future, and this is not a good start.

Using traceable invites is bad OPSEC, say what you want but it is not optimal anonymity and security. And that makes me and others feel less secure using this system.
If admins and mods do not think this is insecure, what other security and anonymity do they sacrifice in the same way that we do not know about?

These forums aren't exactly "Private".

I believe (although this is not confirmed) that DPR will be giving anyone who makes a purchase on the market place an auto-invite.

We just want to cut down on spammers & trolls. We will never keep LE out..  Now if we find a spammer, we can delete them, then they have to go through the rigger of finding another invite.
Alright, in the future forum accounts might be connected to your PURCHASE on market? Red flags popping up here!
This is a serious security issue. Even thinking about implementing a feature like this shows a insecure thinking.
If fed did not get enough last time, the will sure have this time.
A nice red thread to follow the users activity throughout the forum->market->bitcoin transfers connecting everything nicely..

Is this an anonymous market of a fucking honeypot? What do you think users will think about this place DPR? Seriously.

I just want to add some more to this, as i feel it is relevant.

If your so concerned about invite codes. Don't invite anybody.

Only DPR has access to see who invited who. And we wont hold you accountable to your invites unless you have invited coachello or a spammer/scammer multiple times.

If your concerned, don't invite anybody. Feel free to ask me for an invite code via PM and you can pass that on, so there is no link to your name.

"Only DPR has access to see who invited who." -Sarge
Lies.
It is in the database connected to every account, easy to follow for anyone with access.
PROOF below;

I have no idea what the mods can see, but I get your point there. Mods?

They have access to change your password as well as a myriad of other things, but I don't see them being able to see who invited who.

when i click on my username it takes me to my profile summery. mine looks like this..


Username:
    nick Cotton
Posts:
    82 (41 per day)
Karma:
    +7/-4
Invited By:
    ***********


"If your concerned, don't invite anybody. Feel free to ask me for an invite code via PM and you can pass that on, so there is no link to your name. " -Sarge
Not? There is a personal message from your account to sarge asking for the specific invite.
It is still traceable.

As i said: If LE did not get enough last time, the will sure have this time.
A nice red thread to follow the users activity throughout the forum->market->bitcoin transfers connecting everything nicely..

Forum posts is as good evidence as an actual confession, if it can be connected to the buyer account. Which Sarge hinted DPR is implementing.
No smoke without a fire.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 05:32:36 pm by blue »

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2013, 05:32:20 pm »
Blue,

Who do you think has access to the live database of the forum other than DPR? Other developers may work on the forum and marketplace but it is standard procedure even in the corporate world for clearnet sites to not work directly on a live site.

As I have stated earlier in this thread, if you are concerned with having people you want to invite tied to your username somewhere in a database then you should ask the administration kindly if they would be willing to generate you an invite using their accounts. If you are worried about the trail left by PM, send a message with no subject line and use PGP to encrypt the body which contains your request.

If you can not trust that then your trust lies elsewhere with PGP or with the actual administrators themselves. If that is the case then the invite system is not really the issue and you likely should not be using deepweb marketplaces.

Artist

EDIT: Added clarification in final paragraph
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 05:35:28 pm by Artist »

blue

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2013, 05:37:14 pm »
Blue,

Who do you think has access to the live database of the forum other than DPR? Other developers may work on the forum and marketplace but it is standard procedure even in the corporate world for clearnet sites to not work directly on a live site.

As I have stated earlier in this thread, if you are concerned with having people you want to invite tied to your username somewhere in a database then you should ask the administration kindly if they would be willing to generate you an invite using their accounts. If you are worried about the trail left by PM, send a message with no subject line and use PGP to encrypt the body which contains your request.

If you can not trust that then your trust lies elsewhere with PGP or with the actual administrators themselves. If that is the case then the invite system is not really the issue and you likely should not be using deepweb marketplaces.

Artist

EDIT: Added clarification in final paragraph

Today it might be only DPR and a few others. Tomorrow it might be LE or anyone who can exploit the forum or server.
LE will mirror the whole server as soon as they find it, they did that with silkroad and they will do it again.

Learn OPSEC. This is bad OPSEC and should not have been implemented in the first place.
Even worse is the idea of connection forum accounts to market accounts. That is so bad OPSEC i can not even find words.

I am worried about this because DPR must be more secure then this to keep this market safe. Security must be priority above everything else.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 05:45:32 pm by blue »

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2013, 05:39:08 pm »
Today it might be only DPR and a few others. Tomorrow it might be LE or anyone who can exploit the forum or server.
LE will mirror the whole server as soon as they find it, they did that with silkroad and they will do it again.

I added an additional short paragraph to the end of my post. If you would care to edit you post and reply to those points as well it would be appreciated

Artist

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2013, 05:55:33 pm »
I was invited recently. oldschoolau is also listed as the one who generated the invite code, but I know for a fact that that account was not the one who generated the keys.

I am a little concerned because I intend to establish product review threads - and would prefer not to be linked to the account holder who generated the invite keys.

I did a search for oldschoolau and it seems he first appeared when DoctorClu mentioned him in this post.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 05:57:07 pm by Cereal »

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2013, 05:57:39 pm »
I was invited recently. oldschoolau is also listed as the one who generated the invite code, but I know for a fact that that account was not the one who generated the keys.

I am a little concerned because I intend to establish product review threads - and would prefer not to be linked to the account holder who generated the invite keys.

Cereal,

Can you provide more details? In good faith of course, I would not want to ask you to divulge any information you think puts you at risk in any way/shape/form.

Artist

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2013, 06:03:10 pm »
The only other potentially useful thing I can think of is that the invite keys were generated yesterday.


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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2013, 06:06:48 pm »
Have you tried contacting the person you believe actually should have generated your key? That is if I am understanding this correctly. Otherwise, I would wait for a mod or admin to shed some light on this. If they do not, you can always try PMing a moderator for more information.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2013, 06:13:40 pm »
I'm not concerned that the user didn't actually generate them. I was just chiming in that I got the same info as DoctorClu2 when DoctorClu generated his keys. Who in fuck is oldschoolau anyway he doesn't appear to be a real user.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2013, 06:18:08 pm »
My only guess is that the invite system may have been modified in such a way that the users who meet the requirements for invites can generate them and give them out, but the backend makes sure that all the invite codes are actually generated through a dummy account so they are not traceable to the actual inviting user.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2013, 06:23:57 pm »
My only guess is that the invite system may have been modified in such a way that the users who meet the requirements for invites can generate them and give them out, but the backend makes sure that all the invite codes are actually generated through a dummy account so they are not traceable to the actual inviting user.

It'd be great if we could know for sure.

On a strange side note I've just put the same capcha in for the last 3 posts.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2013, 11:33:15 pm »
that's strange, i do not have to put in captcha's after my first couple posts
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #65 on: November 09, 2013, 12:08:06 am »
So here's my proposed solution to this problem. Invites can only be traceable to the invitee for only a short period (to prevent spam/trolls) of time (1-2 weeks) and after that this information gets deleted or filled with gibberish.

Someone in another post also said that SR Market account who purchase will automatically have a forum invite generated. This isn't really a problem as the invited by field probably won't say "Purchased on market" but rather some generic statement like "SR" etc... It's not actually linking I believe.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #66 on: November 09, 2013, 12:22:32 am »
My only guess is that the invite system may have been modified in such a way that the users who meet the requirements for invites can generate them and give them out, but the backend makes sure that all the invite codes are actually generated through a dummy account so they are not traceable to the actual inviting user.

This is something that I would still like to see a response to. Especially since I am not the only one who experienced the oldschoolau event.

Mods - If the ability to see who invited you is a feature, it's broken and honestly I want to know why said "feature" is in place. If this is not intended, please have DPR remove it.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2013, 12:24:59 am »
How do you people know who needs invites?

You Don't know PGP?         :o

Go here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=41104.0

Then go Here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=179.0

Sink your teeth into it and Learn  ;)

If you cannot take the little bit of Time to Learn & Use PGP..Do Not msg Me
 

Hugs 8)

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2013, 12:32:42 am »
It's not knowing who needs them, it's knowing who invited them.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2013, 12:37:52 am »
Well I'm not invitin anyone then  :-\
You Don't know PGP?         :o

Go here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=41104.0

Then go Here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=179.0

Sink your teeth into it and Learn  ;)

If you cannot take the little bit of Time to Learn & Use PGP..Do Not msg Me
 

Hugs 8)

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2013, 12:39:51 am »
How do you people know who needs invites?

I've been asking myself the same thing. How does one go about finding someone who needs/has invites? It sounds really complicated to me.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2013, 12:49:07 am »
How do you people know who needs invites?

I've been asking myself the same thing. How does one go about finding someone who needs/has invites? It sounds really complicated to me.

That's the security problem we are talking about. Inviting someone you know outside the forums now means that they know your username within it. The two should remain separate and be shared only if both parties want to. I cant see the usernames of those I have invited, so why should they be able to see mine?
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2013, 12:50:21 am »
Quote from: fuckthishoe
Quote from: ChemCat
How do you people know who needs invites?

I've been asking myself the same thing. How does one go about finding someone who needs/has invites? It sounds really complicated to me.

If i don't know 'em....i aint invitin them....Period      .

« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 12:51:39 am by ChemCat »
You Don't know PGP?         :o

Go here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=41104.0

Then go Here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=179.0

Sink your teeth into it and Learn  ;)

If you cannot take the little bit of Time to Learn & Use PGP..Do Not msg Me
 

Hugs 8)

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2013, 01:18:24 am »
I will ask DPR to review this thread and make comment as they see fit as this clearly is a point of concern for some people.

As others have said though of anyone is that concerned then do not invite others and ask and admin/mod to do it.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2013, 01:19:26 am »
welppp... Looks like I won't be inviting anyone either.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2013, 01:26:56 am »
I will ask DPR to review this thread and make comment as they see fit as this clearly is a point of concern for some people.

As others have said though of anyone is that concerned then do not invite others and ask and admin/mod to do it.

Synergy

Thank you for the response, Syn. Much appreciated.
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whom

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2013, 01:44:02 am »
So here's my proposed solution to this problem. Invites can only be traceable to the invitee for only a short period (to prevent spam/trolls) of time (1-2 weeks) and after that this information gets deleted or filled with gibberish.

Someone in another post also said that SR Market account who purchase will automatically have a forum invite generated. This isn't really a problem as the invited by field probably won't say "Purchased on market" but rather some generic statement like "SR" etc... It's not actually linking I believe.
The problem with trying to enforce a short shelf life on how long that mapping between Inviter->Invitee is kept is that you have to trust the server to do it.   It sorta becomes one of those "They promise they won't keep it very long" kinda scenarios.  Nobody should ever *rely* on anything they're not personally responsible for.

The core data itself is probably only useful to an adversary to perform limited exploration of social networks.   ForumMemberA invited ForumMemberB.. do they know each other outside of the forum?   ForumVendorMemberA invited MemberB.. is that a customer?

A marketplace that's generating invites based on users purchasing things.. that's a different equation. If that mapping stays around, an adversary with visibility into both systems gets a much better view.  PersonA bought ProductB from VendorC, then got an invite, which was used to create ForumMemberD.  And the adversary can then view ForumMemberD's posts as probably coming from PersonA.   If they ever get better visibility into VendorC, that helps put pieces into the puzzle.

From an anonymous server development perspective, if you can find a way to NOT have to store a bit of data, and still meet your desired outcome, that's almost always the right option.

Again, nobody's sure at this point that invites are even a long-term plan at this point.. I'm sure DPR will weigh in at some point.    But if it worries you, you should definitely not be generating invites.   PMing a moderator to make you an invite for someone adds you another layer between you and the invite, but there are scenarios where that link is still there.



ChemCat

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2013, 01:53:53 am »
Honestly...oh heck..for some reason i am torn on this invite thing....the people i would invite are already here.


:-\


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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2013, 01:57:54 am »
So No invites from me  :P















*Slaps Forehead*














:P
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2013, 02:04:47 am »
Well here's one for whoever can grab it quickly ;)

4bad141d9e401b7e44ba86a3448d860204baafc6
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JinxTheLooseCannon

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2013, 02:08:21 am »
Synergy: Thanks ^^

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2013, 02:10:48 am »
And three more for those worried about inviting others just now:

34b05ac1f3dcb87b6e9a27ab34e0d50ec04b6594

707b65c382c017366f54bf47f3f5792c5bebfd85

b645e4f55e676738766a415f2e7bddbd6c0a836a
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #82 on: November 09, 2013, 02:14:31 am »
Fuck it..here we go  :-\


796e0b03db8f7a8b82a40873694cfe6d858e956a


if i get into trouble i'm gonna tan someone hide  LOL
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 02:17:17 am by ChemCat »
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2013, 02:16:18 am »
invite your friends :)

4a72488e356399c1ba73e667f3a3efc698a0ea91
64fe46e3773556fcc1e093cd4a750eb5ebc2f41e
cff46454dea90bbc38467b3f01890c280d9bd33f
3f096abe0450dc2d4628a1778a97d47e75eb67e3
8c2932d121a3ce114a9880392c27736fcbc2396e
65dcb3b3d535c64fb61203d4448fdb668bd7124d
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #84 on: November 09, 2013, 02:20:05 am »
Fuck it..here we go  :-\


796e0b03db8f7a8b82a40873694cfe6d858e956a


if i get into trouble i'm gonna tan someone hide  LOL

LOL if coachella uses that code your gonna be the one getting the tanned hide ChemCat!

:D
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2013, 02:22:11 am »
Bahahaha!! 


**Slaps Forehead**

I better not or i'm gonna have to come live with you...and you don't want 29 goats livin in yur living room  :P

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2013, 02:24:50 am »
Haha that's an oddly specific number of goats.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2013, 02:25:45 am »
For years I was an active member of a website and forum called cannabisworld.  The community mostly discussed methods of growing marijuana.  Eventually the website was seized by the feds.  A few years later I found out that the website was revived, although they had instated an invite only member policy.  It had been so long since my original membership, and I had never really befriended anyone on the anonymous forums, so I was refused access to the new site.  I was very unhappy. 

Anyway, I think everybody should be allowed to join silkroad.  That is kind of the whole point, isnt it?

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2013, 02:25:56 am »
i had 30 but i had to slaughter one, he was old and deserved an honorable death.


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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2013, 02:27:56 am »
+ 1 Karma to you @ Marvin  :)

And Welcome to the Silk Road Forums!

:)


That was very eloquently said  :)

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #90 on: November 09, 2013, 02:32:04 am »
For years I was an active member of a website and forum called cannabisworld.  The community mostly discussed methods of growing marijuana.  Eventually the website was seized by the feds.  A few years later I found out that the website was revived, although they had instated an invite only member policy.  It had been so long since my original membership, and I had never really befriended anyone on the anonymous forums, so I was refused access to the new site.  I was very unhappy. 

Anyway, I think everybody should be allowed to join silkroad.  That is kind of the whole point, isnt it?

Unfortunately there are some people out there whose only interest is to cause harm to this wonderful community so we had to take some drastic measures to counter the threat.

I am sure the restrictions will be relaxed over time but for now it is BLOODY fantastic not having to deal with the relentless trolling.

Anyway, as ChemCat said welcome Marvin :)
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #91 on: November 09, 2013, 03:06:14 am »
I can view who invited me.

If you look at Profile > Summary you can see who invited you.

Yes, but DPR is handing out invites on Twitter, as if they are needed for signing up, which it doesn't look like it is. I'm confused.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #92 on: November 09, 2013, 03:12:24 am »
I can view who invited me.

If you look at Profile > Summary you can see who invited you.

Yes, but DPR is handing out invites on Twitter, as if they are needed for signing up, which it doesn't look like it is. I'm confused.

The keys are required to make a new account on the forums. Him handing them out on twitter does open up a potential for them to be used by spammers/trolls, but that's on him.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2013, 03:52:20 am »
In the last few weeks the staff team has been very strained and given the speed at which we have been required to move to respond to issues and also accommodate for the huge returning vendor base which requires pretty strict verification procedures, we are short enough on time and hands already. Following a burst of activity from Coachella and several other known trolls, my decision to close registration was not taken lightly but it had to be done in order to maintain a forum which was not laced with trolls, spam and misinformation whilst we dealt with accruing issues.

The invitation system was implemented by request of users - it was the user base who ultimately called for the system to allow more users to join at a controlled rate and I have done what I can to widely distribute invites and we have not yet seen the return of the residential troll so the tactic so far has been effective since it limits the potential for damage and distraction.

Some of the above is true - moderators cannot see the invitation links but users and myself can, and it is certainly true this could be used to profile users by creating a web of people. However, there is no requirement to invite people and if you are not comfortable doing so you only need to not hand out invites - the tradeoff for OPSEC versus bringing whomever to the forum is therefore passed onto the user, I am not enforcing poor decisions on you just as how a user chooses to use PGP or not as I have said repeatedly there are a lot of invite codes posted on my Twitter which you can direct people to and indeed many people have taken advantage of this already.

The invite system is a temporary measure, but it will remain in place until we are properly up and running the site so we can focus more on those developments and the moderators processing users than have to clean up after a very persistent and annoying troll. When free time becomes more readily available, we will look at what options we have, but until then our only alternative is to close registration entirely which is a situation I personally feel is not beneficial to anything whereas the invitation system is a go-between for now.

However, to address the very question in the topic thread - the invitation system does not harm anonymity in itself. The only way in which it can harm it is if you as a user fail to take proper measures to protect it, so for example you use the same forum name to order on the market in plaintext for both the inviting user and the invitee. In this environment, we are all anonymous and I cannot stop people not being responsible for themselves to stay safe and so even if this system is in place there is no reason it should compromise anonymity unless you have already done so yourself and that is the distinction I make between the potential harm versus the benefit in the circumstances we are in right now.

How we move forward is still open for debate, but this culture of criticizing the system no matter what the state has to end, we need to actually hear some plans being put forth which are not the typical followings (ie close registration, open registration) since we have tried that and have come under even more criticism than the current state. So until a better idea is put forth where we can see greater support and realistic pros and cons which are in the interest of the circumstances, we will have to stick with the invite system which remains optional should you personally wish to make that tradeoff. This is going to draw criticism yes, but I ask you to consider the alternatives and appreciate the situation we now face.
Quote 23: Criticism has plucked the imaginary flower from the chain not so that man may continue to bear the chain without consolation or fantasy but so that he may throw off the chain and cull the living flower.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2013, 04:04:01 am »
(Rolls Eyes)


7cffab403ab4426182d175c98cea4303bc3b3743
You Don't know PGP?         :o

Go here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=41104.0

Then go Here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=179.0

Sink your teeth into it and Learn  ;)

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2013, 04:06:30 am »
In the last few weeks the staff team has been very strained and given the speed at which we have been required to move to respond to issues and also accommodate for the huge returning vendor base which requires pretty strict verification procedures, we are short enough on time and hands already. Following a burst of activity from Coachella and several other known trolls, my decision to close registration was not taken lightly but it had to be done in order to maintain a forum which was not laced with trolls, spam and misinformation whilst we dealt with accruing issues.

The invitation system was implemented by request of users - it was the user base who ultimately called for the system to allow more users to join at a controlled rate and I have done what I can to widely distribute invites and we have not yet seen the return of the residential troll so the tactic so far has been effective since it limits the potential for damage and distraction.

Some of the above is true - moderators cannot see the invitation links but users and myself can, and it is certainly true this could be used to profile users by creating a web of people. However, there is no requirement to invite people and if you are not comfortable doing so you only need to not hand out invites - the tradeoff for OPSEC versus bringing whomever to the forum is therefore passed onto the user, I am not enforcing poor decisions on you just as how a user chooses to use PGP or not as I have said repeatedly there are a lot of invite codes posted on my Twitter which you can direct people to and indeed many people have taken advantage of this already.

The invite system is a temporary measure, but it will remain in place until we are properly up and running the site so we can focus more on those developments and the moderators processing users than have to clean up after a very persistent and annoying troll. When free time becomes more readily available, we will look at what options we have, but until then our only alternative is to close registration entirely which is a situation I personally feel is not beneficial to anything whereas the invitation system is a go-between for now.

However, to address the very question in the topic thread - the invitation system does not harm anonymity in itself. The only way in which it can harm it is if you as a user fail to take proper measures to protect it, so for example you use the same forum name to order on the market in plaintext for both the inviting user and the invitee. In this environment, we are all anonymous and I cannot stop people not being responsible for themselves to stay safe and so even if this system is in place there is no reason it should compromise anonymity unless you have already done so yourself and that is the distinction I make between the potential harm versus the benefit in the circumstances we are in right now.

How we move forward is still open for debate, but this culture of criticizing the system no matter what the state has to end, we need to actually hear some plans being put forth which are not the typical followings (ie close registration, open registration) since we have tried that and have come under even more criticism than the current state. So until a better idea is put forth where we can see greater support and realistic pros and cons which are in the interest of the circumstances, we will have to stick with the invite system which remains optional should you personally wish to make that tradeoff. This is going to draw criticism yes, but I ask you to consider the alternatives and appreciate the situation we now face.

DPR, by no means am I stating that the invite system is a poor decision. As I told Synergy, it is a very effective way at deterring spammers/trolls and is a solution that is much more favorable than closing off registration completely. I am also not "criticizing the system no matter what the state". As a whole, you guys are doing an outstanding job of delivering on market features while maintaining a positive forum atmosphere.

You state yourself that the tracking of invites poses the threat of being able to form "a web of people". That is the negative part of this functionality. What I have yet to hear is what the positive side is of having a user being able to see who invited them. It is one thing for the administrator to see that information so as to further deter spamming and such, but allowing users to have that visibility to their own inviter serves no purpose that I can think of.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2013, 04:10:41 am »
I'll nawt be responsible for those which use those two Invite Codes.

However...there are three people which i would vouch for and take responsibility for.....for a short duration.


right now my back isn't letting me move, i'm laying this keyboard down for a bit....
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #97 on: November 09, 2013, 05:03:06 am »
I can't help but to jack off to this thread.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2013, 05:08:53 am »
See?

(Rolls Eyes)
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2013, 05:30:40 am »
See?

(Rolls Eyes)

I am sure that was your invite chemmy :D.

How we move forward is still open for debate, but this culture of criticizing the system no matter what the state has to end, we need to actually hear some plans being put forth which are not the typical followings (ie close registration, open registration) since we have tried that and have come under even more criticism than the current state.

I understand that you and the moderators are a little stressed out and have a lot on your plates. I appreciate your response. I feel the need to defend myself though. This was my very first created topic ever and also my first criticism. I don't want to be part of your mentioned culture, so I will see your post as a thought-provoking impulse. Maybe we can make use of this thread and actually come up with something feasible.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2013, 05:34:58 am »
Staind?  :-\


What's wrong?

My PM Box is Open  :)


Use PGP Please ......
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #101 on: November 09, 2013, 05:42:51 am »
See?

(Rolls Eyes)

I am sure that was your invite chemmy :D.

How we move forward is still open for debate, but this culture of criticizing the system no matter what the state has to end, we need to actually hear some plans being put forth which are not the typical followings (ie close registration, open registration) since we have tried that and have come under even more criticism than the current state.

I understand that you and the moderators are a little stressed out and have a lot on your plates. I appreciate your response. I feel the need to defend myself though. This was my very first created topic ever and also my first criticism. I don't want to be part of your mentioned culture, so I will see your post as a thought-provoking impulse. Maybe we can make use of this thread and actually come up with something feasible.

Agreed +1. While security of the forum should not trump security of the market, I think other solutions can easily be thought up by the userbase as suggestions for improvement as opposed to lumping them all together as a culture of criticism. This is not our intent. Pointing out what we see as a potential security flaw should be encouraged DPR.

Staind - Sorry if I hijacked your thread in any way. It was not my intent.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #102 on: November 09, 2013, 05:48:53 am »
Staind is good people  :)


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staind

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #103 on: November 09, 2013, 05:49:16 am »
Staind?  :-\

What's wrong?
It's all good chemmy, meant to quote the troll. Was just kidding ::).

Staind - Sorry if I hijacked your thread in any way. It was not my intent.
Not at all! Hearing everyone's opinion was the purpose of the thread.
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ChemCat

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2013, 05:51:14 am »
See ya in our living room @ staind   :)
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Go here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=41104.0

Then go Here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=179.0

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whom

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2013, 06:03:52 am »
I feel the need to defend myself though. This was my very first created topic ever and also my first criticism. I don't want to be part of your mentioned culture, so I will see your post as a thought-provoking impulse. Maybe we can make use of this thread and actually come up with something feasible.
I don't think you have any need to defend yourself.  It was a valid observation, and it's a valid problem with the invite system.  And probably one that will be around for quite a while, from the sounds of it. 

I've yet to see a decent way to solve the problem they're trying to solve.  Everything has a downside.  I thought the old Newbie Forum 50-post jail concept from the old forums was a decent compromise.  Open registration, but with 50 posts acting as a Proof of Work.

And long-term, something Proof of Work-centered is probably the best of many ugly answers.   Don't care if it's solving audio CAPTCHAs, posting in the Newbie forum, sorting porn images by breast size, solving puzzles, or whatever.  The point is that by artificially increasing the effort necessary to create an account, you're making people exchange their *time* for account creation.   Done right, you can ratchet up the amount of work required until you have the right balance.

staind

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #106 on: November 09, 2013, 06:17:18 am »
Okay, here are some thoughts for a different approach.

Why don't we let the community bear a part of the responsibility. I think we can effectively unburden the moderators with only minor changes.

The resent trolls aren't exactly hard to spot. They have a huge amount of negative karma after only a very short amount of time.
I could imagine the following:

Open registration.
5 posts/day limit for the first 20 posts of an account.
Users with an extreme negative karma ration within the first 20 posts should be automatically deleted.
After the 20 posts everything should remain as it is now.

I would love to see such a "self-regulating" community, i think it would fit greatly in the mindset of the silkroad.

What do you guys think? Is such a system possible?
“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or in the holy name of liberty or democracy?” ― Mahatma Gandhi

staind

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #107 on: November 09, 2013, 06:22:09 am »
See ya in our living room @ staind   :)

:) :) hope your spine feels better soon. Will send you a pm.


Thanks whom. I am grateful that a lot of people contributed. Was afraid I would be left out in the rain alone :P.
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DoctorClu

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #108 on: November 09, 2013, 06:27:42 am »
I think a valid solution would be a combination of the two. Keep registration closed to invite only. As shown by the numerous keys posted in this thread alone and the ones being put on Twitter, this should allow for an exponential growth of the userbase. Also keep the delay between new account registration and the ability to generate keys.

In addition to this, bring back the 50 post quarantine from the old forum. This will stem the tide of trolls and spamming attempts while at the same time generating an atmosphere in the other forums that encourages posts of real value. I think that a daily/hourly post limit should also be implemented here to stop new users from simply spamming the quarantine forum with one-word posts so they can make it to 50 as fast as they can type.

Remove the functionality that allows for users to see who invited them. There is no purpose in this visibility and only serves to pose a potential security threat. DPR should be the only one able to view this information and a data retention policy should be put in place. The records should be purged either after X amount of days have passed or once the new user has reached 50 posts and is capable of generating keys themselves.
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #109 on: November 11, 2013, 08:00:52 pm »
I like some of the comments by staind and whom...

Personally I've never been totally comfortable with the invite system. Apart from all the negatives mentioned above, I believe it will also hinder legitimate growth of this new Silk Road.

Until just a couple of hours ago, if random person X wanted to join the forums, then unless he had some special connection to get an invite key, he's not going to get on to the forums at all. Most buyers probably prefer to be totally anonymous so getting a key is not really something doable from that perspective.

Now at least the marketplace messaging is turned on so the option exists for a buyer to message his favourite vendor and ask for a key. Which if things get busy will be a pain for the vendor - and I believe vendors only get so many keys per day.

I think the whole thing is just going to piss new people off frankly - and slow down our growth. And all of this just to slow down what seems to be one singular troll??

I think it is far better to allow anyone to join the forum without an invite key, but create some time delay + proof of work to make creating new accounts be a bit of a chore. The 50 post rule is somewhat tedious, but can still be worked through in half an hour. Probably better would be something like 10 posts but they need to be an hour apart - or something like that

The self-regulation thing proposed by staind is cool also (and will definitely make the mod's jobs easier)... If there is a certain ratio of negative karma to post count within the first 20 (or similar) posts, the account is auto-terminated. I definitely like that. The algorithm would just need to be worked out carefully so that it is not abused and is actually functional...

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OneTimeNick

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #110 on: November 11, 2013, 08:21:34 pm »
50 posts newbie forum, add a limit for posts per hour.

web of trust does not work with strangers and it certainty does not work with 3607 members. or when you hand out codes on twitter.

the problem is with people like MarvinMartian who got lost and want to reconnect.

make a sub forum for all the "lost ones", give them 10 PM inbox, maximum 2 recipients and done


eph0yze

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #111 on: November 11, 2013, 08:51:02 pm »
The 50 post rule on the old forums was a major annoyance though.

I don't think there's anything in the Newbie forum for people intelligent enough to NOT come in asking 'wat FE mean' or 'how do I buy buttcoinz'. Assume your normal user who read the guides and made a few purchases wants to just come in an leave a review. We want people to leave detailed feedback here, but they're probably not going to bother with posting in the n00b ghetto for two weeks just so they can do that.
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ChemCat

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #112 on: November 11, 2013, 09:06:37 pm »
What is this FE you speak of  :-\
You Don't know PGP?         :o

Go here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=41104.0

Then go Here: http://silkroad5v7dywlc.onion/index.php?topic=179.0

Sink your teeth into it and Learn  ;)

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pearljuice

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #113 on: November 12, 2013, 10:48:34 am »
Okay, here are some thoughts for a different approach.

Why don't we let the community bear a part of the responsibility. I think we can effectively unburden the moderators with only minor changes.

The resent trolls aren't exactly hard to spot. They have a huge amount of negative karma after only a very short amount of time.
I could imagine the following:

Open registration.
5 posts/day limit for the first 20 posts of an account.
Users with an extreme negative karma ration within the first 20 posts should be automatically deleted.
After the 20 posts everything should remain as it is now.

I would love to see such a "self-regulating" community, i think it would fit greatly in the mindset of the silkroad.

What do you guys think? Is such a system possible?

Great idea for the self regulating community! Would have the potential to be abused, it would need to be tested.

One thing I was going to suggest (you already did) was to make a 5-10 post per day limit for first 50 posts, any spammers would be greatly slowed. I have seen such a thing work quite successfully on other forums.
Of course it doesn't stop the same person making multiple accounts and doing 10 per day. Very hard to stop spammers unfortunately.

I do like the idea of invite codes being automatically given to first time buyers. However, new people really should get the chance to ask questions and such before purchasing. Would there be a way to make a newbie Q&A forum that new users could only post in until they have made a purchase? Of course the rest of the forum is visible, and they can make a thread and link to somewhere in particular if they have specific questions, but they are limited to that area until they make a purchase and get a key/code for the rest of the board.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #114 on: November 13, 2013, 03:36:29 am »
There were some people on the old forum simply posting several invitation codes at a time.  I used one and it said I was invited by someone who hadn't posted the actual code.  Sorry if this is irrelevant, but I fail to see how it endangers anonymity.
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mlg22

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #115 on: November 15, 2013, 07:15:38 am »
I'll tell you one thing...It's so nice to not have pages of spam in all the categories. Atlantis and bitcoin spams seemed to be never ending. The invite-system has knocked that crap out, so that's definitely a positive.

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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #116 on: November 15, 2013, 02:57:35 pm »
I don't think it endangers anonymity too much, I mean nothing here is linked back to you as a person, and none of the people i know in real life know any thing about me and this site and i plan on keeping it that way. if you want to help a friend out just show him/her the site and let them go from there, you don't have to be a vendor to make good use of this site (although...vending makes you gangster ;) all in all just keep your safety net up at all times! keeping your self safe helps keep the rest of the community safe as well! each time they catch one of us they take a brick out of our wall! the wall will not hold itself with 1 brick so make sure each and everyone here is doing there part to look out for one another!
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Re: Invite-system endangers anonymity
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 2013, 04:41:24 am »
This is a post of mine from a while back offering the post limit idea,
...
On the old forums i hated seeing all of the spam many users did to get to the 50/100 mark for posts. I believe it would be in the community's best interest if there was a 3posts/hr or something along those lines for users below 50 posts. And then an increase for those below 100, and so on and so forth.
...
This is a response i got,
Right now the forums are invite only.

We also have a lot more tools at our disposal to fight spam then the old Forums.

Spam should not be an issue here.

So reasons i do not know, it is not viable to have a post limit.
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