The rationale on FE and why to NEVER DO it or REQUIRE it

[Psyqe1986]

Hi community,

I just wanted to briefly write a little informative piece for many of the new members of our community (vendors and buyers alike) about "Finalizing Early":

I want to first and foremost say that this is not a piece dedicated to bashing vendors although at times it may seem that I am making the vendor out to be the bad guy. I am not trying to do that, but merely trying to explain the procedure of Finalizing Early ("FE")

The whole concept of requiring FE, DESPITE the fact of all the darknet market scams, is preposterous.

Do not get me wrong, I totally understand the viewpoint of the vendors (i.e.; the volatility of these websites and of BTC) and sympathize with them. I had a vendor once tell me the reason why he requires FE; he said: "if you walk into Target, guess what, you have to PAY first to receive the product."

My response to him was that (1) I already had the product IN HAND at this point and could verify first-hand that it was the desired product I was actually paying for, (2) if in fact the product is NOT what i bargained for, I have the option of returning it to the store and (3) if in fact the store is not cooperating, I have the option to go to court (in the United States) and vindicate my rights.

So yes, while in the real world you technically "FE", these websites are not like im walking into Target at all. The escrow system is the buyer's SOLE barrier of protection - on the one side, it grants bargaining power in the case of any mixups during the buying process and protects the buyers money, while ALSO giving bargaining power to the vendor as the buyer obviously wants your product. on the other side, it gives the vendor the entirety of power in the bargaining process and leaves the vendor able to completely manipulate the entire deal or, in fact, NOT go through with the deal and take the money without any repercussions.

If you are a vendor and require FE, you obviously should not be in this game. In the real world, guess who takes the brunt of the losses when something happens in the market, the vendors (e.g., corporations) do. Courts have consistently said corporations are in a much better position to be able to take the hit than the consumers and are therefore liable for many unforeseen circumstances (i.e.; in this case, it would be the darknet market scams). Who do you think is able to bear the hurt more in these cases, a buyer, whom just put together his remaining $200 dollars to be able to purchase some good DMT, or the hundred thosand dollar (maybe million dollar) drug vendor, that is well-connected with suppliers and buyer's alike?

Now, in the real world, companies have what we like to call "insurance." I understand that there is no insurance to be had in this type of market. But if you're a vendor, you need to account for these types of unforeseen occurrences in the market. If you are too worried about losing money in escrow, the easy solution is to put only SO MANY listings up that you can afford to have in escrow and then turn on "vacation mode" until the escrow has cleared. It's very simple. Obviously your profit margins won't be as high because the turnover rate will be slower, but it is an easy tossup between safety and profit. Never get greedy in a marketplace like this. That goes for vendor's and customers alike, you will always lose money in the end.

FE used to be required for buyers whom you thought might be unreliable, however it has changed drastically to be used to counteract the market conditions. Well let me tell you, BOTH the buyers and vendors have to deal with the same market conditions, we all do. Vendor's just have a bigger stake in it. But that doesn't mean you should shove the risk onto the buyer's who are less capable of handling the risk. Vendor's have a bigger stake in losing money, but they also have a much greater stake in making a fair amount of money. Isn't it only logical then that the risk of losing a lot of money is proportional to that of making a lot of money?

While I am not a vendor and never will be, I have tried to put myself in the shoes of the vendor's and understand their plight. The solution is not as black-and-white as I make it out to be here, however the FE approach solution is not a solution that has gained much favor on the buyer's side and THAT is the side you should be catering towards if indeed, you'd like to keep your customer's coming back.

Tl;DR -
Never FE. if NO buyer's ever FE'ed the vendor would never receive any sales and would eventually have to change their practices. This is a market built on trust and trust alone and vendor's need to earn that through hard work, prompt, courteous and respecful customer service, and diligent planning based on the marketplace conditions. If a vendor has done that, he won't need to ask for FE as his buyer's will FE out of respect for a distinguished vendor.

Thank you for reading.

Some quick tips:
1. Remember, always do your homework about the vendor you are dealing with. 10 minutes of extra digging can be the difference between having your product or not.
2. Vendor feedback is there for a reason. Use it. Established vendors will have pages of feedback. The Forums. USE THEM. They are a treasure trove of information. Established vendors and serious starting vendors will have created a forum post dedicated for buyer's to leave feedback about their experiences with the vendor.
3. If a vendor claims they have been around for some time, look them up in the published (and verified) directory by PGP here - http://directory4iisquf.onion/
4. If a vendor asks you to FE, be able to afford the loss in case your product never arrives.
5. I am making vendors out to be bad guys who require FE, but they are not bad people, many have legitimate concerns about their money and are honest vendors. That being said if a vendor requires you to FE, always message them and voice your concerns and see if they are willing to work with you. A vendor can tell when a buyer is serious and reliable, and also wants to make money, so many times, even if they have a "firm" FE policy, you may be able to get around it by being honest with the vendor about how you feel.
5. Always test the waters with new vendors, buy in small quantities first and see how it goes. Ask yourself if the vendor seems professional, and committed to making you happy. Is the vendor prompt in responding to messages.
6. If the price seems too good to be true AND the vendor requires FE, stay away. In this game, there is a certain price vendors must pay to get quality items, don't be fooled into thinking you are getting a stellar deal, you aren't.
7. if at the end of the day, you FE'ed and were scammed. Let the community know. This is how we grow as a community.

Stay safe SR.

[centropen]

good info..... thanks
Never FE
+1 for ya

[thecatisback]

I like this post I think FE early is stupid and I rarely do it if you require it I'm going some where else than at least with them I have escrow protection. The vendors make plenty of money when compared to someone like me who rarely has extra from his check.

[B4B]

When you lose escrow 3 time (!!!) you change how yo do business. Keep in mind that you not only lose 100% ESCROW but you also lose the shipping cost + the actual product.

We are reluctant to fully trust any marketplace right now, which is why we’ve been dealing 100% FE direct via email since TorMarket closed.

But we realize that we need to meet our customers halfway, which is why we’ve introduced our new 50/50 FE policy. Here’s how it works:

You finalize 50% of your order before I ship, then the other 50% once your order arrives. This helps us both share the risk of a market closure, and ensures we can keep business running smooth to keep delivering the best products at the lowest prices.

So if you want to order 2oz, simply add two 1oz items to your basket, and only add shipping to one of them (you only pay shipping once no matter how many items you order). Then, you finalize the half with the shipping, we ship your product, and you finalize the other half when it arrives.

[redalloverthenet]

I have yet to make a purchase on SR2 and don't expect many of the vendors here to recall my stats which were perfect and I know many of us lost the stats which would make any vendor allow escrow.

I have gone FE a few times for trusted vendors but with so many new vendors its likely not something I'd want to do.

I always research vendors and if I buy off an unknown or one not rated, its always a small amount.

I understand why some vendors require FE because someone with 0 purchases is a risk of sorts. Not sure what the ratio is for scammer customers but I guess a few do claim no shows and get a refund or resend.

I will hopefully make a purchase tonight so I'm hoping its a painless escrow deal!

FE is best avoided with ANY new vendor not yet rated or with just a bit of feedback (shill accounts are used by some scammer vendors no doubt)

There are some vendors I'd trust with FE. One is actually asking for FE so I'd be happy in that instance as I'ved dealt often enough to know they are legit.

[Psyqe1986]

When you lose escrow 3 time (!!!) you change how yo do business. Keep in mind that you not only lose 100% ESCROW but you also lose the shipping cost + the actual product.

We are reluctant to fully trust any marketplace right now, which is why we’ve been dealing 100% FE direct via email since TorMarket closed.

But we realize that we need to meet our customers halfway, which is why we’ve introduced our new 50/50 FE policy. Here’s how it works:

You finalize 50% of your order before I ship, then the other 50% once your order arrives. This helps us both share the risk of a market closure, and ensures we can keep business running smooth to keep delivering the best products at the lowest prices.

So if you want to order 2oz, simply add two 1oz items to your basket, and only add shipping to one of them (you only pay shipping once no matter how many items you order). Then, you finalize the half with the shipping, we ship your product, and you finalize the other half when it arrives.

Hi B4B,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'd definitely like vendor's opinions on this sensitive subject and potential solutions.

As I stated before, I am trying to understand the plight the vendor's face, so I know i haven't gotten it all correct yet. But if i may rebut just a little bit from what you said. If you lost escrow three times, that would be a flaw in the marketplace and not a flaw in the buyer's credibility. Let me reiterate from above, this is a risk that the vendor takes when s/he conducts business on this site. This is the vendor's risk and vendor's are trying to push this off on the buyer's to mitigate their own losses. As i suggested above, who is in a better place to handle these losses? You, the vendor, are. You have the suppliers, the buyer's and a higher cash flow than the purchaser to be able to deal with these issues. That is why diligent planning must be done by the vendor to ensure that you are able to afford these losses. If you can't afford the losses, you shouldn't resort to pushing the risk on the buyer who is actually LESS capable at mitigating their losses. The solution that I had proffered was only put up as many listing as you can afford to lose in escrow, then turn on vacation mode and wait until the escrow has been released, then come back. Like i said, it is obviously slower, and your profit margins will be less, but it's the price you pay for safety.

The 50/50 solution has been around since BMR. BMR had 2 different escrows, a shipping escrow and a product escrow. What vendors would do there would be, lets say 1oz MDMA costs $1300. They would create a listing whereby the shipping costed HALF of the listing price - thus shipping would be $650 and product price would be $650. The product would be shipped once the shipping escrow was released. However, this is STILL the exact same problem as FE but now, you've muddle it. But you can see that if I purchase the listing and release the shipping escrow of $650, again that is FE'ing and we have the same problems as I have stated above. The vendor could very well just take that $650 and be on their way.

While I think this is a decent approach to alleviate some of the stress for vendor's, it definitely does not resolve the issue of FE'ing and shifting risk onto the buyer's.


**If you are now just joining the discussion, please read my lengthy post above and voice your concerns**

[AASSAaaoo11O0]

I'm gonna get some T-shirts made up that say 'FUCK F/E'

[B4B]

When you lose escrow 3 time (!!!) you change how yo do business. Keep in mind that you not only lose 100% ESCROW but you also lose the shipping cost + the actual product.

We are reluctant to fully trust any marketplace right now, which is why we’ve been dealing 100% FE direct via email since TorMarket closed.

But we realize that we need to meet our customers halfway, which is why we’ve introduced our new 50/50 FE policy. Here’s how it works:

You finalize 50% of your order before I ship, then the other 50% once your order arrives. This helps us both share the risk of a market closure, and ensures we can keep business running smooth to keep delivering the best products at the lowest prices.

So if you want to order 2oz, simply add two 1oz items to your basket, and only add shipping to one of them (you only pay shipping once no matter how many items you order). Then, you finalize the half with the shipping, we ship your product, and you finalize the other half when it arrives.

Hi B4B,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'd definitely like vendor's opinions on this sensitive subject and potential solutions.

As I stated before, I am trying to understand the plight the vendor's face, so I know i haven't gotten it all correct yet. But if i may rebut just a little bit from what you said. If you lost escrow three times, that would be a flaw in the marketplace and not a flaw in the buyer's credibility. Let me reiterate from above, this is a risk that the vendor takes when s/he conducts business on this site. This is the vendor's risk and vendor's are trying to push this off on the buyer's to mitigate their own losses. As i suggested above, who is in a better place to handle these losses? You, the vendor, are. You have the suppliers, the buyer's and a higher cash flow than the purchaser to be able to deal with these issues. That is why diligent planning must be done by the vendor to ensure that you are able to afford these losses. If you can't afford the losses, you shouldn't resort to pushing the risk on the buyer who is actually LESS capable at mitigating their losses. The solution that I had proffered was only put up as many listing as you can afford to lose in escrow, then turn on vacation mode and wait until the escrow has been released, then come back. Like i said, it is obviously slower, and your profit margins will be less, but it's the price you pay for safety.

The 50/50 solution has been around since BMR. BMR had 2 different escrows, a shipping escrow and a product escrow. What vendors would do there would be, lets say 1oz MDMA costs $1300. They would create a listing whereby the shipping costed HALF of the listing price - thus shipping would be $650 and product price would be $650. The product would be shipped once the shipping escrow was released. However, this is STILL the exact same problem as FE but now, you've muddle it. But you can see that if I purchase the listing and release the shipping escrow of $650, again that is FE'ing and we have the same problems as I have stated above. The vendor could very well just take that $650 and be on their way.

While I think this is a decent approach to alleviate some of the stress for vendor's, it definitely does not resolve the issue of FE'ing and shifting risk onto the buyer's.


**If you are now just joining the discussion, please read my lengthy post above and voice your concerns**

You need a VERY high cash flow to permits full escrow, since you have to rebuy product every time.

I would say you need at least 4x your weekly sales in cashflow, that is massive !

With the last months losses I don't think there is lots of vendors who still have this amount (maybe they HAD it back on SR1).

Myself, I like to fully trust buyers... the real problems are markets.

I know if I offered full escrow, my sales would likely double but right now I don't have the cashflow to support 4x 2xCurrent sales.

Also, keep in minds vendors supply people who resale, you can't go on vacation each week.
This is a no go from a business standpoint.

Right now, this situation is VERY tricky... vendors/buyers have to be extra cautious these days.

[thecatisback]

I'm gonna get some T-shirts made up that say 'FUCK F/E'

+1 for that one

[Smoothpuddin]

When you lose escrow 3 time (!!!) you change how yo do business. Keep in mind that you not only lose 100% ESCROW but you also lose the shipping cost + the actual product.

isnt the escrow, shipping cost and product value added together.

[The Jigsaw Puzzle]

Hi community,

I just wanted to briefly write a little informative piece for many of the new members of our community (vendors and buyers alike) about "Finalizing Early":

I want to first and foremost say that this is not a piece dedicated to bashing vendors although at times it may seem that I am making the vendor out to be the bad guy. I am not trying to do that, but merely trying to explain the procedure of Finalizing Early ("FE")

The whole concept of requiring FE, DESPITE the fact of all the darknet market scams, is preposterous.

Do not get me wrong, I totally understand the viewpoint of the vendors (i.e.; the volatility of these websites and of BTC) and sympathize with them. I had a vendor once tell me the reason why he requires FE; he said: "if you walk into Target, guess what, you have to PAY first to receive the product."

My response to him was that (1) I already had the product IN HAND at this point and could verify first-hand that it was the desired product I was actually paying for, (2) if in fact the product is NOT what i bargained for, I have the option of returning it to the store and (3) if in fact the store is not cooperating, I have the option to go to court (in the United States) and vindicate my rights.

So yes, while in the real world you technically "FE", these websites are not like im walking into Target at all. The escrow system is the buyer's SOLE barrier of protection - on the one side, it grants bargaining power in the case of any mixups during the buying process and protects the buyers money, while ALSO giving bargaining power to the vendor as the buyer obviously wants your product. on the other side, it gives the vendor the entirety of power in the bargaining process and leaves the vendor able to completely manipulate the entire deal or, in fact, NOT go through with the deal and take the money without any repercussions.

If you are a vendor and require FE, you obviously should not be in this game. In the real world, guess who takes the brunt of the losses when something happens in the market, the vendors (e.g., corporations) do. Courts have consistently said corporations are in a much better position to be able to take the hit than the consumers and are therefore liable for many unforeseen circumstances (i.e.; in this case, it would be the darknet market scams). Who do you think is able to bear the hurt more in these cases, a buyer, whom just put together his remaining $200 dollars to be able to purchase some good DMT, or the hundred thosand dollar (maybe million dollar) drug vendor, that is well-connected with suppliers and buyer's alike?

Now, in the real world, companies have what we like to call "insurance." I understand that there is no insurance to be had in this type of market. But if you're a vendor, you need to account for these types of unforeseen occurrences in the market. If you are too worried about losing money in escrow, the easy solution is to put only SO MANY listings up that you can afford to have in escrow and then turn on "vacation mode" until the escrow has cleared. It's very simple. Obviously your profit margins won't be as high because the turnover rate will be slower, but it is an easy tossup between safety and profit. Never get greedy in a marketplace like this. That goes for vendor's and customers alike, you will always lose money in the end.

FE used to be required for buyers whom you thought might be unreliable, however it has changed drastically to be used to counteract the market conditions. Well let me tell you, BOTH the buyers and vendors have to deal with the same market conditions, we all do. Vendor's just have a bigger stake in it. But that doesn't mean you should shove the risk onto the buyer's who are less capable of handling the risk. Vendor's have a bigger stake in losing money, but they also have a much greater stake in making a fair amount of money. Isn't it only logical then that the risk of losing a lot of money is proportional to that of making a lot of money?

While I am not a vendor and never will be, I have tried to put myself in the shoes of the vendor's and understand their plight. The solution is not as black-and-white as I make it out to be here, however the FE approach solution is not a solution that has gained much favor on the buyer's side and THAT is the side you should be catering towards if indeed, you'd like to keep your customer's coming back.

Tl;DR -
Never FE. if NO buyer's ever FE'ed the vendor would never receive any sales and would eventually have to change their practices. This is a market built on trust and trust alone and vendor's need to earn that through hard work, prompt, courteous and respecful customer service, and diligent planning based on the marketplace conditions. If a vendor has done that, he won't need to ask for FE as his buyer's will FE out of respect for a distinguished vendor.

Thank you for reading.

Some quick tips:
1. Remember, always do your homework about the vendor you are dealing with. 10 minutes of extra digging can be the difference between having your product or not.
2. Vendor feedback is there for a reason. Use it. Established vendors will have pages of feedback. The Forums. USE THEM. They are a treasure trove of information. Established vendors and serious starting vendors will have created a forum post dedicated for buyer's to leave feedback about their experiences with the vendor.
3. If a vendor claims they have been around for some time, look them up in the published (and verified) directory by PGP here - http://directory4iisquf.onion/
4. If a vendor asks you to FE, be able to afford the loss in case your product never arrives.
5. I am making vendors out to be bad guys who require FE, but they are not bad people, many have legitimate concerns about their money and are honest vendors. That being said if a vendor requires you to FE, always message them and voice your concerns and see if they are willing to work with you. A vendor can tell when a buyer is serious and reliable, and also wants to make money, so many times, even if they have a "firm" FE policy, you may be able to get around it by being honest with the vendor about how you feel.
5. Always test the waters with new vendors, buy in small quantities first and see how it goes. Ask yourself if the vendor seems professional, and committed to making you happy. Is the vendor prompt in responding to messages.
6. If the price seems too good to be true AND the vendor requires FE, stay away. In this game, there is a certain price vendors must pay to get quality items, don't be fooled into thinking you are getting a stellar deal, you aren't.
7. if at the end of the day, you FE'ed and were scammed. Let the community know. This is how we grow as a community.

Stay safe SR.

Great post Psyqe1986. I couldn't agree more with what you've written. Excellent points of concern, beautifully articulated. +1.

[hammer]

Some great points, very well made Psyqe1986. +1

[Merde222]

I like this post I think FE early is stupid and I rarely do it if you require it I'm going some where else than at least with them I have escrow protection. The vendors make plenty of money when compared to someone like me who rarely has extra from his check.

I agree with the OP and I also think that saying FE early is stupid with all due respect loool

[thecatisback]

"Just say No" to finalizing early!

[Psyqe1986]

From someone who has lost 6 figures in the past month due to the usage of escrow systems, I must say that this post is highly irrelevant and purely based on semantics.

You would have to be utterly stupid to F/E for a new vendor with no feedback, and just as utterly stupid to think that a vendor who has 100+ transactions with 100% positive feedback is going to risk his possible 7 figure salary to fuck one person.

You are not analyzing the facts from both perspectives because you've never been a vendor so you cannot.

So lets analyze:

Risk on the buyers end to F/E is based upon the actions of the vendor they are dealing with. Is the vendor honest? Does he have feedback to support his honesty? Transactional volume combined with feedback? Substantial history within the deepweb markets?

Things you cannot prevent:
Exit scams. Closing of the site due to 'hacking' or 'fbi shut down'.

Yet ironically, the ONLY reason that my customers from BMR/TM got their product was because they F/E'd. 99% of those who did not finalize early and their funds were left in limbo did not get their products from vendors all across TM/BMR.

Now, how do you think it feels as a buyer to have your money stolen? Pretty shitty right? To have your funds tied up in escrow and BAM the site goes down, or 'gets hacked' and suddenly the vendor has no chance of getting his funds so why the hell would he ship your product?

Your ignorance of the reality of the fragality of the deepweb markets astounds me. Have you been living underneath a rock? Nothing is stable, and everything is plausibly compromised or targetted to the point where a 'shut down' could occur at any moment. And YOUR funds in YOUR wallet as a buyer is just as susceptable as MY funds in MY wallet.

The escrow system is a valuable tool for resolution between buyers and sellers, but the MAIN POINT here is that regardless of the situation it is ultimately up to YOU to determine who you buy your product from. Are you going to buy it from someone who is reputable, or are you going to penny pinch and take a risk with someone who has no reputation?

Sadly, it is the ignorance of users like you that sets my business up for failure. If I do not use the escrow system, as a BULK dealer then no one wants to risk that large amount of money for F/E unless they are previous customers. This mean's that by requiring F/E I loose all potential new business and things are slow as shit.

So im forced to use the escrow system, to risk (again) 6 figures of money that could at any moment come crashing down and topple my business flat on its ass and set me back to scratch for the THIRD time since i've started vending. Imagine working for a entire year, only to get scammed, loose all your money, start over, get scammed again, loose all your money, start over and get scammed again?

Please be responsible in all of your actions. There are times to consider F/E and there are times to use the escrow system, but your lopsided viewpoint that you should 'NEVER F/E' is ignorant at best.

Green,

maybe you missunderstood my viewpoint, but for the most part we are on the same page, so you ranting about my ignorance seems misplaced.

I've already espoused that I am NOT a vendor nor will I ever be, and that I am trying to comprehend the predicament that the vendors are in, so please, don't sit on your high vendor throne and be disrespectful. I've put a lot of thought into this and have asked for solutions, not attacks about a person's thought processes.

Additionally, I'm not sure how this post is at all irrelevant, it is VERY relevant to the state of the marketplace and to doing business and as can be seen by numerous posts about people being scammed through FE, it is hitting customers (especially the newer ones) hard.

I'd like to comment on a few things that you've stated in order of their appearance from your post:

1. You state that the only reason customers had received their product over on BMR/TM was because they FE'ed as opposed to letting their funds sit in escrow. Unless I am reading that wrong, that would imply after the customer had purchased the listing (allowing them access to the escrow system), the vendor didn't ship the product. That is not a customer issue, that is the vendor being negligent in keeping up with his/her affairs in shipping. How is that at all applicable to whether or not FE is a good practice? And why would FE'ing all of the sudden make a vendor ship the product any more promptly? I am confused what you are getting at with this point.

2. You state - "how do you think it feels as a buyer to have your money stolen? Pretty shitty right? To have your funds tied up in escrow and BAM the site goes down, or 'gets hacked' and suddenly the vendor has no chance of getting his funds so why the hell would he ship your product?"

Well, it feels horrible. I know. I've been there too. Just  not on a scale of loss as high as the vendors. Again, how does this pertain to the customer being required to FE? What you say in your next sentence is the reason why and is the exact point i mentioned in my post if you were to read it instead of calling me ignorant. The "fragility" of the darknet markets. But my point I made was not that FE WASN'T a good tool to mitigate loss for the vendor (because it is in fact an excellent way), but that the risk of doing business (i.e. fragility of the website), should NOT be transferred to your buyers (through FE'ing), whom are not as well-equipped to handle loss as a vendor with a lot more suppliers and purchasers at hand.

I understand that my funds in my wallet are at risk and that so are yours. I only deposit what I need to purchase listings and I understand that you do not have the luxury that I do with money tied up in escrow for long periods  of time. But what I am saying is that requiring FE is a short-cut solution to a vendor problem that puts all the risk on the buyer's and leave the vendor in a much more authoritative position in the bargaining process - one which has left many customers scammed out of money and product, with ZERO recourse.

3. you state: "the MAIN POINT here is that regardless of the situation it is ultimately up to YOU to determine who you buy your product from."

I think everyone would agree with this. This is not in discussion. I even make reference to this exact point in my tips in the original post. I also agree that the escrow system is a valuable tool in the resolution of disputes with vendors. The problem lies in the fact that vendors are foregoing the use of the escrow system to counteract the "fragility" of these websites to protect themselves. And I go back to my point above that if you can't vend without taking into account losses, then you should not be in this game. I'm not saying losing 6 figures is FAIR by no means, but when it comes down to who can better absorb the loss, it is the vendor, not the customer. And obviously, you can absorb those losses as you are still here vending with your product. How this ties in with why we shouldn't FE is that vendors are requiring FE to mitigate the risk of doing business here by shifting it onto the buyers. This is not about using the escrow system as a good dispute resolution tool, this is about vendors making sure that everything goes smoothly for them on their end (WHICH I AGREE IS TOTALLY WARRANTED after what has happened in the recent past). My point is that we must think of another way to achieve this aside from using FE - (i.e. - for example something such as TheMarketPlace uses would counteract any shutdown). Because shifting it onto the buyers so that everything goes well for the vendor is not good business. The FE solution is not even a "meet you half way" solution. It's a solution that 100% favors the vendor and opens the buyer up to an array of risk, such as full-out scamming, or selective scamming.

4. you state: "Sadly, it is the ignorance of users like you that sets my business up for failure. If I do not use the escrow system, as a BULK dealer then no one wants to risk that large amount of money for F/E unless they are previous customers. This mean's that by requiring F/E I loose all potential new business and things are slow as shit."

I understand your frustration with the current system Green, but I fail to see how the desire to use the escrow system is the reason your business will fail. This is the system that has been in place for over 2 years that worked extremely well for SR1 and all the other darknet markets. The reason you said that it failed was not because the escrow system was flawed, but that the WEBSITES were flawed. If the websites had cold storage failsafe backups remote from the servers of SR when the websites were compromised, the coins would be released to those storages and everything would have still been just peachy. Times are changing, but don't blame your current losses on a system that has worked perfectly well. I addressed your exact problem in my post above and you yourself recognize the solution but have no patience. You realize you can't require customers to FE on large orders, so that means that you will have lots of orders in escrow. The exact solution that i wrote above (and by no means it is the proper solution) was that in this case, the vendor must only list as many auctions as he can afford to lose in escrow and then must suspend his other listings until the escrow has been released. You said it yourself, business would be "slow as shit." Well, as I said before, that is the price the vendor must pay for safety to do business on this site.

And as I also stated above, this is a market built on trust and trust alone and vendor's need to earn that through hard work, prompt, courteous and respecful customer service, and diligent planning based on the marketplace conditions. If a vendor has done that, he won't need to ask for FE as his buyer's will FE out of respect for a distinguished vendor. When you have distinguished yourself enough, through patience and good customer service, your business will grow. People will be willing to FE without you requiring it, and you will have the ability to list more postings and to grow your profit more.

I am all open for constructive criticism about my thought processes, the solutions I've proferred, differen viewpoints from the vendors and customers alike, and anything else that would be constructive to this pressing issue.

Let's please keep it directed to the issue of requiring FE and not resort to personal attacks.

Like I have repeated a few times now, I am NOT a vendor and will never be one. I don't know the inner workings of the vendors and admit that openly. Thus I will obviously make wrong assumptions in my posts and I apologize, but these assumptions are in no way meant to be fact and are open to correction. That is why I am asking vendors to express their concerns and also discuss potential solutions

Thank you for reading.

If you are just joining the discussion, please read my initial post and comment.

[RxKing]

You know these articles pop up every week. And with out fail...the OP always got scammed.

There are plenty of reason to FE. But the main one is what if you trust the vendor more then the site?

[SmokesHisBroccoli]

I have to disagree with you Green machine when you said "You would have to be utterly stupid to F/E for a new vendor with no feedback, and just as utterly stupid to think that a vendor who has 100+ transactions with 100% positive feedback is going to risk his possible 7 figure salary to fuck one person."

The only time I've gotten scammed I FE'd early for a long standing vendor and it just so happened that vendor was deciding it was time to get out of the game.  And because he obviously lacked morals he decided it would be ok to ask for FE and not ship anything.  Anyone who ordered in the last few days of this vendor being around got scammed.  There was no way to know.  Feedback was perfect and had been vending for many months.  No scam reports on the forums.  It was a cheap lesson for me to learn.  Thankfully not an expensive one. 

[Psyqe1986]

You know these articles pop up every week. And with out fail...the OP always got scammed.

There are plenty of reason to FE. But the main one is what if you trust the vendor more then the site?

Rx,

Thank you for the response. I fortunately have not been scammed as I don't FE. But I have seen numerous posts now about people FE'ing and never receiving their product and with the growth of SR2 with many new customers, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the scam rate is going up.

As state above, FE is a manifestation from vendor mistrust of customers. It is now being implemented to shift risk onto the buyers. My topic is asking for different options to avoid the use of FE so that buyers can avoid risk.

Back to your post: I'd like to ask what are all these reasons to use FE, I'd like to hear the benefits of all of them. Once I can understand all these reasons (from a vendor's point of view) I can better articulate the position of the customers on each of those reasons and proffer a solution.

Thank you.

[Whitedreams]

When you lose escrow 3 time (!!!) you change how yo do business. Keep in mind that you not only lose 100% ESCROW but you also lose the shipping cost + the actual product.

We are reluctant to fully trust any marketplace right now, which is why we’ve been dealing 100% FE direct via email since TorMarket closed.

But we realize that we need to meet our customers halfway, which is why we’ve introduced our new 50/50 FE policy. Here’s how it works:

You finalize 50% of your order before I ship, then the other 50% once your order arrives. This helps us both share the risk of a market closure, and ensures we can keep business running smooth to keep delivering the best products at the lowest prices.

So if you want to order 2oz, simply add two 1oz items to your basket, and only add shipping to one of them (you only pay shipping once no matter how many items you order). Then, you finalize the half with the shipping, we ship your product, and you finalize the other half when it arrives.

100% true

[Jack N Hoff]

If you order something from target.com you pay them before they ship the item.  If you order anything online you pay before the item is shipped.

When you lose escrow 3 time (!!!) you change how yo do business. Keep in mind that you not only lose 100% ESCROW but you also lose the shipping cost + the actual product.

Ain't that the truth.  I used to be a "NO FE REQUIRED" vendor but after losing about three million US dollars of BTC I now require FE.

[Psyqe1986]

If you order something from target.com you pay them before they ship the item.  If you order anything online you pay before the item is shipped.

When you lose escrow 3 time (!!!) you change how yo do business. Keep in mind that you not only lose 100% ESCROW but you also lose the shipping cost + the actual product.

Ain't that the truth.  I used to be a "NO FE REQUIRED" vendor but after losing about three million US dollars of BTC I now require FE.

Jack,

Thank you for the response. I think the point is getting muddled in this post. It's not that you shouldnt adapt and change your business approach, but there must be some middle ground between No FE and FE that protects both the buyer and seller. There is another darknet marketplace that has this figured out to avoid BTC loss due to a website attack and it works extremely well.

Just to quickly comment about your Target analogy:

It is true that you "pay first" "receive second" when you order online. But my other points are still valid with respect to the fact that when you order online, you have the option to return it if it doesn't conform. This is called the implied warranty of merchantability implied in any contractual purchase (e.g., on-line purchasing) UNLESS the listing specifically says sold "as-is" (usually for cars). Thus, even though I would have to pay first to receive the item, I would always have the option of returning it if it did not conform and either receiving a replacement OR get my money back. There is NO such option here for the buyer and any further option that he has is limited SOLELY to what the vendor will allow. Again, what that means is that if you FE, all the bargaining power resides SOLELY with the vendor and is not a good distribution of power for a fair market. Additionally, in your on-line Target example, if things got particularly heated and no resolution was possible, I would have the option of using the state or federal court system to vindicate my rights (or whatever country's court system you may reside [in your case China]). Thus, as was stated earlier, even though you FE in the real world, and it makes sense (because the buyer is protected by OTHER means), for the darknet markets, it makes no sense for the buyer to do as s/he is afforded absolutely ZERO protection.

[Jack N Hoff]

I do understand.  Some vendors are not as fortunate as us and cannot afford to lose millions of dollars though.  We can't afford to lose more.  We would quit vending before losing more.  Rather than quit we just require FE.  Our customers have no problem with it.  In fact I get messages everyday saying "Hey Jack I don't trust Silk Road can I just send you my bitcoins to you directly?".  I get these messages all the time and I just have to decline.  Our customers are more than happy to FE and we don't have to lose more BTC when these marketplaces scam or get raided so in my case it is a win win situation all around.

[Psyqe1986]

I do understand.  Some vendors are not as fortunate as us and cannot afford to lose millions of dollars though.  We can't afford to lose more.  We would quit vending before losing more.  Rather than quit we just require FE.  Our customers have no problem with it.  In fact I get messages everyday saying "Hey Jack I don't trust Silk Road can I just send you my bitcoins to you directly?".  I get these messages all the time and I just have to decline.  Our customers are more than happy to FE and we don't have to lose more BTC when these marketplaces scam or get raided so in my case it is a win win situation all around.

Exactly Jack,

You've hit it on the head. The point I made at the outset of this post was that once you have established yourself to a certain point, people are WILLING to FE out of respect for the vendor. My point is that, you don't not need to mandate FE in order for people to eventually do it out of the goodness of their hearts, all you need to do is build trust over time.

As I've reiterated, this is a market built on trust and trust alone and vendor's need to earn that through hard work, prompt, courteous and respecful customer service, and diligent planning based on the marketplace conditions. If a vendor has done that, he won't need to ask for FE as his buyer's will FE out of respect for a distinguished vendor. When you have distinguished yourself enough, through patience and good customer service, your business will grow. People will be willing to FE without you requiring it, and you will have the ability to list more postings and to grow your profit more.

Jack, it seems that you have reached this stage in your vending career and have also reached the stage where you have distinguished yourself from other vendors as a reliable and trustworthy vendor. And as you stated, people are even willing to FORGO using SR entirely because they have so much faith in you. That is excellent for you and is a model for what vendor's should strive for if they are so lucky.

The sole point I am trying to reach is that there must be a way for vendors to achieve this status without requiring FE so that both parties to the transaction can feel safe and secure.

[DoctorClu]

From someone who has lost 6 figures in the past month due to the usage of escrow systems, I must say that this post is highly irrelevant and purely based on semantics.

You would have to be utterly stupid to F/E for a new vendor with no feedback, and just as utterly stupid to think that a vendor who has 100+ transactions with 100% positive feedback is going to risk his possible 7 figure salary to fuck one person.

You are not analyzing the facts from both perspectives because you've never been a vendor so you cannot.

So lets analyze:

Risk on the buyers end to F/E is based upon the actions of the vendor they are dealing with. Is the vendor honest? Does he have feedback to support his honesty? Transactional volume combined with feedback? Substantial history within the deepweb markets?

Things you cannot prevent:
Exit scams. Closing of the site due to 'hacking' or 'fbi shut down'.

Yet ironically, the ONLY reason that my customers from BMR/TM got their product was because they F/E'd. 99% of those who did not finalize early and their funds were left in limbo did not get their products from vendors all across TM/BMR.

Now, how do you think it feels as a buyer to have your money stolen? Pretty shitty right? To have your funds tied up in escrow and BAM the site goes down, or 'gets hacked' and suddenly the vendor has no chance of getting his funds so why the hell would he ship your product?

Your ignorance of the reality of the fragality of the deepweb markets astounds me. Have you been living underneath a rock? Nothing is stable, and everything is plausibly compromised or targetted to the point where a 'shut down' could occur at any moment. And YOUR funds in YOUR wallet as a buyer is just as susceptable as MY funds in MY wallet.

The escrow system is a valuable tool for resolution between buyers and sellers, but the MAIN POINT here is that regardless of the situation it is ultimately up to YOU to determine who you buy your product from. Are you going to buy it from someone who is reputable, or are you going to penny pinch and take a risk with someone who has no reputation?

Sadly, it is the ignorance of users like you that sets my business up for failure. If I do not use the escrow system, as a BULK dealer then no one wants to risk that large amount of money for F/E unless they are previous customers. This mean's that by requiring F/E I loose all potential new business and things are slow as shit.

So im forced to use the escrow system, to risk (again) 6 figures of money that could at any moment come crashing down and topple my business flat on its ass and set me back to scratch for the THIRD time since i've started vending. Imagine working for a entire year, only to get scammed, loose all your money, start over, get scammed again, loose all your money, start over and get scammed again?

Please be responsible in all of your actions. There are times to consider F/E and there are times to use the escrow system, but your lopsided viewpoint that you should 'NEVER F/E' is ignorant at best.

People do selective scam. Even well established vendors. You must understand buyer's hesitation to FE for anyone at the moment with the scams happening recently.




On a side note, I love seeing yours posts just because of your avatar. It's bloody awesome. +1

[Merde222]

So far the only money I lost was on Sheep then TM. Never by a vendor; yet I never FEd except for one and this guy is gold. Another vendor who was gold but advertised it was her "retirement" sale and requiring FE for the first time then scammed but that was a huge red flag.

I had many chances and with many buyers to ask for FE and get it. Yet I feel so bad and the guilt inside is huge to actually scam someone. It will come back to bite  you sooner or later.

[AddiesAndXans]

What, though, are vendors to do when buyers don't finalize days or even weeks after their orders are delivered?

Without auto-finalization, vendors are left at the mercy of buyers who are either too lazy, or too disrespectful, to honor their debts.  I'm currently sitting on several orders with people whose shipments have reached their destination properly, yet who aren't finalizing. 

I didn't get into this to screw anyone over, and those vendors that *do* require FE and then take advantage of customers give the rest of us a bad name. 

My reviews speak for themselves.  I take great pride in all of my positive feedback, and am generally very studious about responding to messages, honoring requests, etc.  But when people start holding my payments ransom, what other option is there besides FE?

I'd love to hear some feedback on this topic.  If anyone has solutions to this problem of non-finalizing customers while auto-finalization isn't yet in place, other than blacklisting them or publicly shaming them, please let me know.

[DoctorClu]

Auto-finalization being disabled is simply a temporary measure and puts an end to a lot of concern. I will see if i can touch base with Defcon and get an ETA for it being re-enabled.

[WickedWords]

It's good that auto-finalize is temporarily disabled... that means disputes, though delayed, will be attended to, right?

I don't have any disputes. Just curious.

[Sjkooig]

Hi community,

I just wanted to briefly write a little informative piece for many of the new members of our community (vendors and buyers alike) about "Finalizing Early":

I want to first and foremost say that this is not a piece dedicated to bashing vendors although at times it may seem that I am making the vendor out to be the bad guy. I am not trying to do that, but merely trying to explain the procedure of Finalizing Early ("FE")

The whole concept of requiring FE, DESPITE the fact of all the darknet market scams, is preposterous.

Do not get me wrong, I totally understand the viewpoint of the vendors (i.e.; the volatility of these websites and of BTC) and sympathize with them. I had a vendor once tell me the reason why he requires FE; he said: "if you walk into Target, guess what, you have to PAY first to receive the product."

My response to him was that (1) I already had the product IN HAND at this point and could verify first-hand that it was the desired product I was actually paying for, (2) if in fact the product is NOT what i bargained for, I have the option of returning it to the store and (3) if in fact the store is not cooperating, I have the option to go to court (in the United States) and vindicate my rights.

So yes, while in the real world you technically "FE", these websites are not like im walking into Target at all. The escrow system is the buyer's SOLE barrier of protection - on the one side, it grants bargaining power in the case of any mixups during the buying process and protects the buyers money, while ALSO giving bargaining power to the vendor as the buyer obviously wants your product. on the other side, it gives the vendor the entirety of power in the bargaining process and leaves the vendor able to completely manipulate the entire deal or, in fact, NOT go through with the deal and take the money without any repercussions.

If you are a vendor and require FE, you obviously should not be in this game. In the real world, guess who takes the brunt of the losses when something happens in the market, the vendors (e.g., corporations) do. Courts have consistently said corporations are in a much better position to be able to take the hit than the consumers and are therefore liable for many unforeseen circumstances (i.e.; in this case, it would be the darknet market scams). Who do you think is able to bear the hurt more in these cases, a buyer, whom just put together his remaining $200 dollars to be able to purchase some good DMT, or the hundred thosand dollar (maybe million dollar) drug vendor, that is well-connected with suppliers and buyer's alike?

Now, in the real world, companies have what we like to call "insurance." I understand that there is no insurance to be had in this type of market. But if you're a vendor, you need to account for these types of unforeseen occurrences in the market. If you are too worried about losing money in escrow, the easy solution is to put only SO MANY listings up that you can afford to have in escrow and then turn on "vacation mode" until the escrow has cleared. It's very simple. Obviously your profit margins won't be as high because the turnover rate will be slower, but it is an easy tossup between safety and profit. Never get greedy in a marketplace like this. That goes for vendor's and customers alike, you will always lose money in the end.

FE used to be required for buyers whom you thought might be unreliable, however it has changed drastically to be used to counteract the market conditions. Well let me tell you, BOTH the buyers and vendors have to deal with the same market conditions, we all do. Vendor's just have a bigger stake in it. But that doesn't mean you should shove the risk onto the buyer's who are less capable of handling the risk. Vendor's have a bigger stake in losing money, but they also have a much greater stake in making a fair amount of money. Isn't it only logical then that the risk of losing a lot of money is proportional to that of making a lot of money?

While I am not a vendor and never will be, I have tried to put myself in the shoes of the vendor's and understand their plight. The solution is not as black-and-white as I make it out to be here, however the FE approach solution is not a solution that has gained much favor on the buyer's side and THAT is the side you should be catering towards if indeed, you'd like to keep your customer's coming back.

Tl;DR -
Never FE. if NO buyer's ever FE'ed the vendor would never receive any sales and would eventually have to change their practices. This is a market built on trust and trust alone and vendor's need to earn that through hard work, prompt, courteous and respecful customer service, and diligent planning based on the marketplace conditions. If a vendor has done that, he won't need to ask for FE as his buyer's will FE out of respect for a distinguished vendor.

Thank you for reading.

Some quick tips:
1. Remember, always do your homework about the vendor you are dealing with. 10 minutes of extra digging can be the difference between having your product or not.
2. Vendor feedback is there for a reason. Use it. Established vendors will have pages of feedback. The Forums. USE THEM. They are a treasure trove of information. Established vendors and serious starting vendors will have created a forum post dedicated for buyer's to leave feedback about their experiences with the vendor.
3. If a vendor claims they have been around for some time, look them up in the published (and verified) directory by PGP here - http://directory4iisquf.onion/
4. If a vendor asks you to FE, be able to afford the loss in case your product never arrives.
5. I am making vendors out to be bad guys who require FE, but they are not bad people, many have legitimate concerns about their money and are honest vendors. That being said if a vendor requires you to FE, always message them and voice your concerns and see if they are willing to work with you. A vendor can tell when a buyer is serious and reliable, and also wants to make money, so many times, even if they have a "firm" FE policy, you may be able to get around it by being honest with the vendor about how you feel.
5. Always test the waters with new vendors, buy in small quantities first and see how it goes. Ask yourself if the vendor seems professional, and committed to making you happy. Is the vendor prompt in responding to messages.
6. If the price seems too good to be true AND the vendor requires FE, stay away. In this game, there is a certain price vendors must pay to get quality items, don't be fooled into thinking you are getting a stellar deal, you aren't.
7. if at the end of the day, you FE'ed and were scammed. Let the community know. This is how we grow as a community.

Stay safe SR.

*cough*cough*  Ya because who buys bulk through the darknet and then distributes locally for insane profit margins?  Right guys? Guys.....?

In all seriousness though I think multisig escrow in off market wallets is a good solution.

[BuprenorFiend]

If you order something from target.com you pay them before they ship the item.  If you order anything online you pay before the item is shipped.

When you lose escrow 3 time (!!!) you change how yo do business. Keep in mind that you not only lose 100% ESCROW but you also lose the shipping cost + the actual product.

Ain't that the truth.  I used to be a "NO FE REQUIRED" vendor but after losing about three million US dollars of BTC I now require FE.

It's not the buyer's fault that vendors like you put trust in markets that were new and unproven. Tormarket's security was exposed by DPR and Sheep Marketplace raised all kinds of red flags. Vendors tell buyers to research a vendor before they buy and potentially FE for them so why don't they follow their own advice when it comes to vending on new marketplaces.

[RxKing]

Rx,

Thank you for the response. I fortunately have not been scammed as I don't FE. But I have seen numerous posts now about people FE'ing and never receiving their product and with the growth of SR2 with many new customers, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the scam rate is going up.

As state above, FE is a manifestation from vendor mistrust of customers. It is now being implemented to shift risk onto the buyers. My topic is asking for different options to avoid the use of FE so that buyers can avoid risk.

Back to your post: I'd like to ask what are all these reasons to use FE, I'd like to hear the benefits of all of them. Once I can understand all these reasons (from a vendor's point of view) I can better articulate the position of the customers on each of those reasons and proffer a solution.

Thank you.

Hey..glad you were not scammed.

Anyways... there are a lot of reasons for FE. And you are trying to say there are never any. But just to give you an example of one...lets say you put an order in on Friday at 5 pm....lets say that order was for 5k....well it can not be shipped until Saturday...and you can not get it until Monday...

Well in that amount of time...the BTC could make that 5k-------3k...it could also go to 7k I get that...but the point is they FE so I have access to the funds right away..and if I chose to sell the BTC at that moment...I get the 5k..if I hold on to it....it is my choice.

I think what you are totally  missing is that when you use Silk Road and you FE ....all you are doing is giving a vendor access to the funds right away. And for every sale and for every person it is different. There is never going to be NO FE EVER. And that is what you are saying.

Also as this market go's..there have been plenty of times the market is down and buyers can not finalize. So for convenience..they do FE. Not everyone is on SR every day 7 days a week.

The point is that YOU can never say NO FE EVER. I mean YOU personally can make that choice...no problem...but when you give the argument you did in the OP it just really made no sense. I mean I get your points..but it just makes no sense.

Also at this moment...a lot of people do not trust SR. So they would rather make sure the vendor gets paid so they FE. As they know the vendor will ship the package.

It all boils down to if you trust the vendor or not. It is that simple.

Also the people in these forums need to quit trying to tell everyone one else what they should or should not do. I mean help people stay away from scammers...that's one thing...but to tell someone "never fe for no no one ever" is just a really ignorant thing to say.


For me personally. My customers trust me more then they trust SR. So they would rather me hold the money.

As for me...I like defcon and I think he is trying to do the best he can with what he has to work with. Could he be doing better? I have no idea...maybe not...but I do know 100% for sure..He could be doing a lot worse.

[AddiesAndXans]

Rx,

Thank you for the response. I fortunately have not been scammed as I don't FE. But I have seen numerous posts now about people FE'ing and never receiving their product and with the growth of SR2 with many new customers, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the scam rate is going up.

As state above, FE is a manifestation from vendor mistrust of customers. It is now being implemented to shift risk onto the buyers. My topic is asking for different options to avoid the use of FE so that buyers can avoid risk.

Back to your post: I'd like to ask what are all these reasons to use FE, I'd like to hear the benefits of all of them. Once I can understand all these reasons (from a vendor's point of view) I can better articulate the position of the customers on each of those reasons and proffer a solution.

Thank you.

Hey..glad you were not scammed.

Anyways... there are a lot of reasons for FE. And you are trying to say there are never any. But just to give you an example of one...lets say you put an order in on Friday at 5 pm....lets say that order was for 5k....well it can not be shipped until Saturday...and you can not get it until Monday...

Well in that amount of time...the BTC could make that 5k-------3k...it could also go to 7k I get that...but the point is they FE so I have access to the funds right away..and if I chose to sell the BTC at that moment...I get the 5k..if I hold on to it....it is my choice.

I think what you are totally  missing is that when you use Silk Road and you FE ....all you are doing is giving a vendor access to the funds right away. And for every sale and for every person it is different. There is never going to be NO FE EVER. And that is what you are saying.

Also as this market go's..there have been plenty of times the market is down and buyers can not finalize. So for convenience..they do FE. Not everyone is on SR every day 7 days a week.

The point is that YOU can never say NO FE EVER. I mean YOU personally can make that choice...no problem...but when you give the argument you did in the OP it just really made no sense. I mean I get your points..but it just makes no sense.

Also at this moment...a lot of people do not trust SR. So they would rather make sure the vendor gets paid so they FE. As they know the vendor will ship the package.

It all boils down to if you trust the vendor or not. It is that simple.

Also the people in these forums need to quit trying to tell everyone one else what they should or should not do. I mean help people stay away from scammers...that's one thing...but to tell someone "never fe for no no one ever" is just a really ignorant thing to say.


For me personally. My customers trust me more then they trust SR. So they would rather me hold the money.

As for me...I like defcon and I think he is trying to do the best he can with what he has to work with. Could he be doing better? I have no idea...maybe not...but I do know 100% for sure..He could be doing a lot worse.

Well said.  Vendors who are do business properly can rely on their reviews to justify FE; those vendors who don't have positive reviews, well, why would anyone trust them until they've proven themselves?

[Jack N Hoff]

If you order something from target.com you pay them before they ship the item.  If you order anything online you pay before the item is shipped.

When you lose escrow 3 time (!!!) you change how yo do business. Keep in mind that you not only lose 100% ESCROW but you also lose the shipping cost + the actual product.

Ain't that the truth.  I used to be a "NO FE REQUIRED" vendor but after losing about three million US dollars of BTC I now require FE.

It's not the buyer's fault that vendors like you put trust in markets that were new and unproven. Tormarket's security was exposed by DPR and Sheep Marketplace raised all kinds of red flags. Vendors tell buyers to research a vendor before they buy and potentially FE for them so why don't they follow their own advice when it comes to vending on new marketplaces.

Silk Road is where I lost millions.  I lost a little bit on Sheep.  I didn't lose anything on TorMarket.  Thank you for your input though.

[vince]

If you order something from target.com you pay them before they ship the item.  If you order anything online you pay before the item is shipped.

When you lose escrow 3 time (!!!) you change how yo do business. Keep in mind that you not only lose 100% ESCROW but you also lose the shipping cost + the actual product.

Ain't that the truth.  I used to be a "NO FE REQUIRED" vendor but after losing about three million US dollars of BTC I now require FE.

It's not the buyer's fault that vendors like you put trust in markets that were new and unproven. Tormarket's security was exposed by DPR and Sheep Marketplace raised all kinds of red flags. Vendors tell buyers to research a vendor before they buy and potentially FE for them so why don't they follow their own advice when it comes to vending on new marketplaces.

Silk Road is where I lost millions.  I lost a little bit on Sheep.  I didn't lose anything on TorMarket.  Thank you for your input though.

  Really new vendors shouldn't be allowed to require FE..  I'd FE for you any day, but some vendors I wont even trust with escrow.

[snowwhite421]

For me personally. My customers trust me more then they trust SR. So they would rather me hold the money.

^^^^^This is why I would FE a vendor I had grown to trust.

[envious]

Not FEing doesn't make any difference to a successful vendor, it just diminishes your sources. There is plenty of people who will FE. Obviously there is always risks associated with business here but at this point centralizing everyone's coins in one spot is a disaster of a model. Any vendor who has been around a while would not even consider escrow at this point. While I agree you shouldn't FE for just anyone, vendors who have been successfully selling for years have no reason to scam you for $100... My rep is worth far more than any order I get.

[SmokesHisBroccoli]

Not FEing doesn't make any difference to a successful vendor, it just diminishes your sources. There is plenty of people who will FE. Obviously there is always risks associated with business here but at this point centralizing everyone's coins in one spot is a disaster of a model. Any vendor who has been around a while would not even consider escrow at this point. While I agree you shouldn't FE for just anyone, vendors who have been successfully selling for years have no reason to scam you for $100... My rep is worth far more than any order I get.

While I agree with most of what you said I do want to point out one thing and it comes as first hand experience the only time I got scammed.  I FE'd for someone with an outstanding rep with over 100+ transactions over months of service and a perfect feedback rating.  But guess what?  They were getting out of the game and because they lacked morals they decided to rip everyone off before they sailed off into the sunset.  Their rep meant nothing to them anymore because they were quitting.  So at any point in time a buyer is susceptible to a FE scam.  I never thought it would happen to me, but it did. 

[superfastjellyfish]

Is FE simply just way to mean to pay for the item before it is delivered?

[flux101]

From someone who has lost 6 figures in the past month due to the usage of escrow systems, I must say that this post is highly irrelevant and purely based on semantics.

You would have to be utterly stupid to F/E for a new vendor with no feedback, and just as utterly stupid to think that a vendor who has 100+ transactions with 100% positive feedback is going to risk his possible 7 figure salary to fuck one person.

You are not analyzing the facts from both perspectives because you've never been a vendor so you cannot.

So lets analyze:

Risk on the buyers end to F/E is based upon the actions of the vendor they are dealing with. Is the vendor honest? Does he have feedback to support his honesty? Transactional volume combined with feedback? Substantial history within the deepweb markets?

Things you cannot prevent:
Exit scams. Closing of the site due to 'hacking' or 'fbi shut down'.

Yet ironically, the ONLY reason that my customers from BMR/TM got their product was because they F/E'd. 99% of those who did not finalize early and their funds were left in limbo did not get their products from vendors all across TM/BMR.

Now, how do you think it feels as a buyer to have your money stolen? Pretty shitty right? To have your funds tied up in escrow and BAM the site goes down, or 'gets hacked' and suddenly the vendor has no chance of getting his funds so why the hell would he ship your product?

Your ignorance of the reality of the fragality of the deepweb markets astounds me. Have you been living underneath a rock? Nothing is stable, and everything is plausibly compromised or targetted to the point where a 'shut down' could occur at any moment. And YOUR funds in YOUR wallet as a buyer is just as susceptable as MY funds in MY wallet.

The escrow system is a valuable tool for resolution between buyers and sellers, but the MAIN POINT here is that regardless of the situation it is ultimately up to YOU to determine who you buy your product from. Are you going to buy it from someone who is reputable, or are you going to penny pinch and take a risk with someone who has no reputation?

Sadly, it is the ignorance of users like you that sets my business up for failure. If I do not use the escrow system, as a BULK dealer then no one wants to risk that large amount of money for F/E unless they are previous customers. This mean's that by requiring F/E I loose all potential new business and things are slow as shit.

So im forced to use the escrow system, to risk (again) 6 figures of money that could at any moment come crashing down and topple my business flat on its ass and set me back to scratch for the THIRD time since i've started vending. Imagine working for a entire year, only to get scammed, loose all your money, start over, get scammed again, loose all your money, start over and get scammed again?

Please be responsible in all of your actions. There are times to consider F/E and there are times to use the escrow system, but your lopsided viewpoint that you should 'NEVER F/E' is ignorant at best.

I will have to agreeon the fact that the idea of "never f/e" is ignorant, because like everyone knows once you establish a relationship with a vendor via multiple orders, the vendor begins to trust you and you begin to trust the vendor - this means that if you trust that the vendor will do you right, escrow really is pointless. don't get me wrong it obviously has it's use on the site and as a general rule not f/e'ing for most vendors is a good idea, unless you can clearly see many stand up and vouch for their authenticity.

Honestly, here's the low down on SR/Escrow/FE/Risk:

1.) BOTH Buyers AND Vendors risk loss with a transaction - BUT, buyers take on MUCH more of the risk - here's how: buyers deposit money (btc). buyers can then purchase a given product. at this point they may never receive the product, the site might get shut down, they get sent fake product, etc. vendors on the other hand are essentially guaranteed the BTC within escrow since the implementation of auto-finalize. it may take awhile, but those BTC currently are DEFINITELY the vendors - SR2.0 has no working dispute system, there have been multiple threads on this and I was even a buyer who lost coin because auto-finalize went into place even for orders in 'dispute'. SR2 staff is NOT currently worried about disputes. I was told 4-5 times from SR to "Wait until the resolution center is up" when I had an issue with a vendor - eventually my coins were released to the vendor without any dispute process actually taking place.

So, all in all, the most vendors risk is issues with SR2 itself - hacked, shut down by feds, exit scam, etc. It is unfortunate that some people lost a lot of money on Sheep/BMR, but you all have to understand something - do NOT deposit money you are NOT prepared to lose. SIMPLE AS THAT. I understand some vendors make dealing drugs their primary source of income and it can hurt when you take a loss, but also understand you have a lot less risk on the current SR2 system when compared to buyers.

Go to the subforums and look at how many people, including myself, posted about how their orders in dispute were 'finalized' and the coins just GIVEN to the vendors with absolutely NO attempt to resolve it on SR2's end. This shows the fact that their is no protection via escrow for buyers right now. All escrow will do right now is hold the coins in limbo for 17 or whatever days it is. At that point those coins become the vendor's. IF SR updates it's shit and actually starts assisting disputes, this changes things a bit - but currently that's not the case.

Everyone is making valid points, but all in all:

Always investigate a vendor. Scour threads, PM people and ask about their experience dealing with said vendor, scour Reddit, etc. Once you locate a reliable vendor for a specific product, THEN make the buy. Do not spend any money you are not willing to lose. Always use PGP. Use escrow when possible but understand the risks currently with the current SR site.

Too many people aren't doing the above, are getting scammed then bitching on the forums about it. Nobody's fault but yours. I researched a vendor pretty thoroughly, and even with that vendor being pretty prominent here for a specific product, I was ripped off and the vendor ran his mouth on his own review thread calling me a liar only to go back and delete all his posts. I quoted him, so his attempt at erasing the past was pointless. This shit happens to everyone, suck it up, move on and find a better vendor.