Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: Opiate-Power on March 22, 2012, 12:35 pm
-
Hello All,
Okay so I am not really an old timer yet and do not know if this has been talked about before but I will throw it out there and see what yinz think.
So I am getting really tired of this escrow system not being used by new vendors. I mean I think that these new vendors need to factor in the cost to themselves that funds will be in escrow while the buyer waits for their item(s) to arrive. I am really alarmed at the amount of BRAND NEW VENDORS requiring buyers to finalize early. I know it is up to the buyer and that's fine but I think they shouldn't even have a choice if a vendor does not meet the 1 month or 50+ transaction requirement. I mean the person who finalizes early knowing the risks still bitches and complains on the forums and thinks that they should get something back. What newbies don't realize is that once a transaction is finalized it is just like kissing that money goodbye. I think that newbies look at other TRUSTED/ESTABLISHED vendors feedback and the new buyers assume that is just how things work on SR and finalize early not wanting to mess anything up.
Basically I am wondering if the MODS/ADMIN would be able to block new vendors from even asking for early finalization. I think this would be great. I mean I am not a super buyer on SR by any stretch but I have good enough buyer stats that no new vendor should be allowed to ask me to finalize early. I have built my name and NOW IT IS TIME THAT THE NEW VENDOR DOES THE SAME.
Now I don't want to single anyone out but I really appreciate the way Tony76 has built his rep up. In the beginning he never asked buyers to finalize early. Now that he has a very good reputation he asked people to finalize early if they do not have good buyer stats. Completely understandable. He has a name for himself and people that are new should be asked to finalize early. Like I said he has his rep to back that up. Also he still does not even ask his buyers that have good stats to finalize early. He lets them stay in escrow. Personally this is the way it should be.
Finally, I think that if you do finalize early you should get a 50% discount on SR's fees. I am more than fine giving him something for setting this up. I mean he deserves something for his time and effort. Same with the wonderful Mods here. I am not asking it to be free. But I am asking is for a price break in the fee's if you finalize early. I mean everything I have read is that most of the fee is there to cover the escrow use. Well if I am bypassing using escrow I do not see why I should pay for it. I would be more than willing to pay $5.00 USD to per transaction in which I do not use escrow. The site would still make a killing.
This is all just my 2 cents. I am just trying to get more involved with the community.
Thanks,
Opiate-Power
-
Recently the SR administration has been more proactive in regards to enforcing the policy in the sellers guide that at least 50 transactions and 1 month acct membership is required before a vendor is able to require buyers finalize early. The vendor Opi even reported getting a message in the past day or two saying that he could either comply to the seller agreement he agreed to when purchasing the acct or face termination.
I agree nice to see them doing something about these brand new vendors requiring early finalization! This is one step in really cutting down on the number of immediate scammers at least. Unfortunately still doesnt prevent scamming when vendors go rogue and run. Movement in the right direction at least, always nice to see the place constantly evolving.
- miR
-
Indeed, those rogue vendors can be a cunt, too. So, they make 50+ good sales over the course of a month, then get you nice and salivated for their wares, and then they post up some larger quantity items with some bangin' prices, about 100 people place orders and "FE for trusted seller", then 50 more the next day, and so on for about a week, two if they are smooth talkers, and you're dumb........let's see, how much have they made, now?? 10-50,000usd?? Mmmmhmmm.
The risk is always going to be there. We will always have to take it (or leave the road) sellers and buyers alike.
If DPR starts implementing rule after rule, I believe we destroy the whole concept of the road.
Remember when UFC 1st started out, and it was ACTUALLY ultimate fighting. 3 rules. No biting, no fish hooking, & no eye gouging. How many rules are there, now? Sure, it's still a good sport, but "it's not what it used to be".
Is that how you want to speak of The Silk Road?
It's not what it used to be................
-
Well yes but OPI is still asking for early finalization. I did not want to say anything because I did not want to blacklist myself from making a purchase from him in the future if he builds a good rep but this is one of the main reasons I started this post. I just can't justify sending out money for a gram to a new vendor not in escrow. I even offered to release the 6 coins for express mail. His loss I guess. If he blacklists me more power to him.
How do I make them aware he is still asking for early finalization. Also so I know for future vendors as well.
-
When a new vendor asks to FE, it says to me that he's not financed enough to be doing any serious long term business here. He's a fly by night. He discovered some stash and figured he could make a quick buck. He realized that every now and again, he should stumble upon a stash which makes it worth paying the seller account fee.
I can't do business with someone who is going to be out of stock for weeks at a time. So I pass on new vendors who require FE.
Moreover, I don't do business with potential scammers.
You say 50+ transactions? I say they shouldn't be able to ask for early finalization until 100+ transactions.
Otherwise, have 2 Silk Roads. One for serious vendors and another one so people can unload their small inventory or unwanted scripts. Call it Silk Road Wild West.
-
I agree, I think once you as a buyer feel like you've either built a solid enough rapport to trust someone with your hard earned coin or you're ok with losing said coin - you should be able to make the call. I've personally done both; there was a newer guy (at the time) who was requiring all new customers to finalize on their initial purchase. It was like $30 and I thought, well I can show some good faith and at the end of the day $30 won't break me if I do get scammed so I did it and everything worked out as it should have. I do think new sellers should have to prove their worth a bit before being able to ask to finalize first.
-
If people are stupid enough to get scammed by allowing new vendors to take their money and run then people deserve the consequences of their actions. There's a risk-reward system in a free market. No amount of regulations can assure that dumb people won't get scammed. All the regulations do is prevent opportunity.
If people would wise up and not finalize early from new vendors they wouldn't have this issue. The new vendors wouldn't make any money and staying on SR would be pointless unless they allowed use of the escrow system.
-
I kind of agree with shadowrun^^^ .... it's always been that way. Newcomers go to the main site before they come to the forums and study up a bit. When I take off for a bit--like I did here--and haven't logged in in over a week/month, it's on me to come here and study up, particularly check up the 'rumor mill' see who's selling my drug of choice, and see if I recognize anybody.
Most of us on here appear to be at least *somewhat* libertarian, and along with that freedom comes the responsibility of taking care of myself. It doesn't matter how many protections SR puts in place, if newbies don't take a day or two to study up, and find out how to act on here, they will get burnt, no way around it.
About the only protections we probably could use, would be to *not* allow newbs to spend over 5 btc a week at first, for about 2 months until they learn just how easy it is to get ripped around this place....
But anyway, it's a darwinian thing....I got burnt on here on some H some time ago. The guy kept stretching out the delivery, and selectively sent some good shit to a few people....and those people--naturally--would come down hard on those of us--like me--who were crying and claiming ripoff. So what?
I don't blame SR or myself either: it's just the nature of the beast. Anyway, I"m back again, I"ll spend a couple of days seeing who's who, where best to p/u some btc, and then roll the old dice again...anybody new, I suggest they do the same thing before ordering: take a couple days, check out your vendors in rumor mill....but usually, it's only after they've been had once, that they discover the forums, and nothing we can do about that...
and of course, immense gratitude to SR for hanging in there with this joint, and much appreciation to the mods and other even keel oldtimers who keep this place afloat!
pbb
-
If people are stupid enough to get scammed by allowing new vendors to take their money and run then people deserve the consequences of their actions. There's a risk-reward system in a free market. No amount of regulations can assure that dumb people won't get scammed. All the regulations do is prevent opportunity.
If people would wise up and not finalize early from new vendors they wouldn't have this issue. The new vendors wouldn't make any money and staying on SR would be pointless unless they allowed use of the escrow system.
Point taken. I think we're trying to interject our conditioning by society onto SR.
I certainly don't agree with protecting the "stupids." That's something our politicians love to do.
However just as new comers who are buyers have to prove themselves, I think it's only fair that new sellers have to prove themselves before asking for what amounts to trusted seller perks. A free market needs to be a fair market in order to function properly. Otherwise inefficiencies, while also opportunities, give more advantage to one side of the market. In this case, the supply side of the market has more advantages than the buy siders. The escrow system was put in place to balance out that dynamic and remove advantage from either side making a free market a fair market with few inefficiencies to exploit.
Granted, sellers take on more risk than buyers. But as compared to real life, face to face transactions, sellers on here take much less risk than in real life. Therefore, I think they need to be vetted for honesty/reliability (given the anonymity) since we can't go chase him down or show up to the exchange scene armed.
If SR is to grow, it will have to garner for itself a reputation for honest and reliable transactions that have significantly reduced risk for buyers. Otherwise, buyers won't bother to make the effort to learn bitcoins, PGP and TOR.
So perhaps a new proposal; Buyers with good stats of a certain threshold cannot be asked to finalize early by new sellers. This would be good for new sellers to establish credibility with established buyers who tend to report on transactions in the forum.
This would balance out the paradigm of: Established sellers asking new buyers to FE/ New sellers unable to ask established buyers for FE.
-
We did operate an early-finalise policy fr nr memebers at the ftart but it caussed so uch frcition, and when you looked at all the reasoning behind the friction, you could then see if tom a buyers point of view so we discontinued the polic' why should we expectthem to trust us on face value, we never even met
That said, why shoud have just trust someone we don't know on face value either. We do still cancel most <0/4/5 orders but will open a doalogue with them to see what we can do to get around the hold ups and then most just offer eralt-finalise anyway, Sp everyone's against it but most people cn see it's the only solution that get's them their goods in time for the weekend
boggling
-
You were the one offering to fe I said I was not allowed to ask for it and you still insisted then I told you to just wait then.
I have over 1600 in escrow including 3 grams...... I will post screen shots of our messages.....
http://hccrkf7ja6io7ygo.onion/?v=screenshot.png
There it is.
You guys can decide for yourselfs If i asked for FE....
He did not meet my requirements therefore I wasn't willing to sell to him. Yet he kept trying to get me to sell to him, even though it clearly states in my profile that I will not sell to anyone less than 5 sales and bad stats..
-
How long ago wa yjay order then? You should have had it by now since we changed that policy ages ago
-
1. If a vendor is going to require FE, then it should be stated clearly so the buyer is aware. Some vendors do some don't. I find that I'm being required to FE after I've placed my order without prior notice.
2. There should be another step in the ordering process where the buyer can back out if the vendor policy has changed. Once the order has been placed the money is stuck in escrow until the 'resolve' option is activated.
I've never had to go to resolve so I'm not sure what the process is, but I can imagine it being a drawn out process of "buyer says" / "vendor says" and if one party wants to be a dick about things I'm sure they can prolong the process.
-
1. If a vendor is going to require FE, then it should be stated clearly so the buyer is aware. Some vendors do some don't. I find that I'm being required to FE after I've placed my order without prior notice.
2. There should be another step in the ordering process where the buyer can back out if the vendor policy has changed. Once the order has been placed the money is stuck in escrow until the 'resolve' option is activated.
I've never had to go to resolve so I'm not sure what the process is, but I can imagine it being a drawn out process of "buyer says" / "vendor says" and if one party wants to be a dick about things I'm sure they can prolong the process.
Remember you'll also lose money. In the form of fee's which still have to be paid.
-
Of course loosing any of my money would not be my first option, but if given the choice between paying the fees and being caught in a scenario where I'm coerced into FE. I would be willing to pay the fee. Now that is just my opinion. Maybe request (2) isn't the best option, but there should be a bit more balance of power
request (1) could be all we need. If I know that I will be required to FE and am not comfortable with it then at least I was given the option before entering into situation where I'm at the mercy of the vendor.
-
A thought that came to my mind:
Make the restriction on sellers not 50+ transactions but a bitcoin amount. Also could weight feedback with respect to the order cost. Might help mitigate spammers or flakes. ??
This thought came to mind because what we are looking for is trust with bitcoins, not necessarily trust with transactions. It was mentioned that a $30 order may be worth a risk, but higher amounts would not. Showing honor and competence with fifty $30 orders is a lot easier than with fifty $300+ orders.
-
If a seller does not advertise FE but then, requires it after placing the order and the order is then canceled by the buyer ,the vendor should be required to pick up all fee's.
-
I, as a new seller (name Jacky 20 days now), I have excellent feedback so far.
Thought that you needed 35! (now I see 50?) sales before you could ask for FE.
Thought that you got banned as a seller if you asked for FE. How come that new vendors can do that then?
Its not really a problem the money but its a lot.....and then seeing your money stuck in escrow while the rates BC/dollar/euro go up and down.....wish I had it ''free'' that time when it still was high :'(
Now I just sit and wait ::)
-
first off i want to thank the vendors and SR for all they do, this place has been a lifesaver for me in more ways than you will ever know, second finalizing early for a new buyer like me with only 5 transactions is confusing. my first transaction I FE because the vendor required 3 transactions, second vendor required 10 so i didn't buy, third vender canceled my order because i only had 3 transactions but since the vendors feedback was 100% and been around for 5 months I FE voluntarily. Last vendor required 5 transactions or you FE. Shit it seems I cant find a vendor for the products I buy that DOESN'T ask for early finalization. Hopefully now that i have 5 someone will finally use escrow on my next order. I have been lucky so far and have not been screwed over.
-
I, as a new seller (name Jacky 20 days now), I have excellent feedback so far.
Thought that you needed 35! (now I see 50?) sales before you could ask for FE.
Thought that you got banned as a seller if you asked for FE. How come that new vendors can do that then?
Its not really a problem the money but its a lot.....and then seeing your money stuck in escrow while the rates BC/dollar/euro go up and down.....wish I had it ''free'' that time when it still was high :'(
Now I just sit and wait ::)
you can hedge your escrow to USD and that way protect your self from exchange rate fluctuation.
Protection of buyers is most important thing, it is their money which moving that place. if some buyers lost money it is worst thing can happens for everyone here. because the whole system get devalued.
I agree, if vendor did not state clearly in his/her profile that he need FE and later ask buyer to FE, it is dishonest practice.
if protection of buyers call for more restrictions over vendors it have to be implemented, without hesitation.
-
Hello,
Way to only post the parts relevant to you. You never answered half my questions. Basically I could have purchased an E book and had 5 transactions. You did not even know how many transactions I had when I asked for escrow. You told me that you are unable to do it because of all the money you had in escrow at the time. And you also said you would stay in escrow for .1 but nothing bigger. So why would you allow me to stay in escrow for .1 but not the gram I wanted to purchase. Also I was willing to get the USA Express so that we both had tracking and the funds would only be tied up for 2-3 days. You see I asked you multiple questions before we got to that point. ANd guess what? You only answered with I cannot do anymore escrow because of all the money you had tied up. Why don't you screenshot the whole entire conversation and not just the parts that make you look right. Unfortunately I delete my messages after I read them for safety sake but you defiantly did delete certain messages to benefit you. I was not just some brand new person asking for escrow either. I had spent about 50 coins with 4 buys. And like I stated I could have bought a warweed ebook and had 5 transactions and you still were going to require me to finalize early. So don't try to make it look like your a saint.
Also I told you I was uneasy sending 300.00 to a new vendor who at that point had ATTACKED TONY76 one of the best vendors on SR. Actually he is the #1 vendor on SR. You didn't make it look to legit from my point of view. Also you had stated you had about 5-7 grams and it just seemed like if you had 1600.00 dollars tied up that you supply should have been gone at that point. I mean hell. If you only had 5 grams that is like 320 per gram which is what you were charing with shipping included. So I basically told you that I would wait for your feedback. I really don't care because I will never order from you because of this and for the fact that you attaked tony76. I did not see that until after I had PMed you in regards to an order.
So post the whole conversation and let people decide. Again I don't mean to start a fight but I needed to defend myself because you made it look like I was bothering you. And yes after you said I could keep half in escrow I got even more nervous and backed out. I mean who are you as a brand new vendor to require users that have been here longer than you and have made buys to finalize early. You have no right to require early finalization based on my buys. Fact of the matter is you have no rep and I had a little one. 4 buys with 50 coins spent and 0% refund. SR policy does not state you can decide who you can ask to finalize early. You cannot ask ANYONE to finalize early until you meet SR requirements. You bitched at Enterprise when he said he was going to do the same thing as you. You are a hypocrite. Just look at the H vendors thread and you will all see where I am coming from. So I am done with this.
Opiate-Power
-
4 Months later......Help me, please......
i have a problem with a vendor, i read something in the policy that give me right, he can change from one day to the next his policy?
-
You say 50+ transactions? I say they shouldn't be able to ask for early finalization until 100+ transactions.
Otherwise, have 2 Silk Roads. One for serious vendors and another one so people can unload their small inventory or unwanted scripts. Call it Silk Road Wild West.
Well said Benjesuit. When someone decides to open up shop on SR, they should be prepared for the initial period of slow growth that accompanies using an escrow system. If they are unwillingly to wait, then they are most likely NOT in it for the long haul, and are looking for a quick buck.
-
i have never asked anyone to finalize early - if anyone ever does " rare " i bitch them out. there is no reason for it - ever.
well i just made myself a liar. i did one time for a large order out of the country but after that first order never again.
dont even ask - usa only now.