Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: orangejuice on August 18, 2012, 10:45 am
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I'm seeing more and more vendors that are no longer willing to accept resolution unless buyers come up with a customs letter to prove that it was taken. This
is completely unreasonable. Many countries including Australia do mot issue them. And what about if the customs letter was in Russian, for example. Also, are we to compromise our safety by actually sending them this letter? There are too many vendors doing this. Here is an example
Streetpharmacy: "15.08.2010
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ATTENTION: There will be no more reships or refund without a letter from customs, proving
the seizure! I have enough of those leeches looking for free drugs.
This was SRs response:The Resolution Staff freely ignores vendor policy when it's not reasonable. ~SR Support
DON'T be intimidated by unreasonable vendors!
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You have to take into account the vendor's perspective as reship requests can run rampant. Replacement material will cause overall product pricing to increase resulting in fewer purchases.
The escrow system in place is far above any reasonable protection one would receive elsewhere. CDN should be available to the point of failure and any resulting love letter should be forwarded upon request. The letter could be redacted if necessary and shared from an anonymous file store online.
CAVEAT EMPTOR.
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The problem for vendors is that if their stuff is suddenly being seized at customs, then they have to go through a lot of work to prevent this happening in future, triple checking stealth-packing, changing all the external elements, maybe using a different post office to ship from too. It's real easy for a buyer to say that something was stopped at customs no matter if it was stopped there, before it left home, or was scooped up ten feet away from the buyers door, or indeed actually arrived.
Obviously countries without love-letters, thats a problem and you should probably talk to the seller before ordering in that case. But that said if your local police are reading your mail and stealing your drugs then that's the buyers problem.
We all have to find a way to work with each other that has mutual benefit and little risk. That is difficult. It may take a lot of work to find vendors to buy from that offer the terms you want, and will probably cost you more. Its difficult.
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Both of your responses are way too sympathetic to sellers, which makes me suspicious that you are both sellers, incognito. Nevertheless, the point IS that requesting proof of seizure, at the most FUNDAMENTAL leve,l is unworkable and totally unreasonable. It would compromise the buyer by sending to the vendor a scanned customs letter. Totally ridiculous, and if some vendors decide to take this ludicrous option then they should be tapped down by SR. And by the looks of it, they won't be getting away with it, anyway.
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If there wasn't so many scammers claiming non delivery then vendors wouldn't need to impose these conditions. As a uk vendor all i can do is prove i posted the package, tracking isn't available for most countries so all i can do is get a certificate of posting to prove i posted the order. If a buyer doesn't have to prove they've had the shipment seized then it's a free ride for the scammers. If vendors cannot prove they posted the package then the resolution centre usually awards 100% refunds, surely the same protection should be given to vendors~?
How does scanning a customs letter compromise a buyer?
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I'm certainly not a vendor but can appreciate your assumption. There are widely available methods for providing a vendor with proof of material seizure such as a customs letter while preserving anonymity. It would be the choice of the vendor to select an amicable vehicle for providing this proof. The response I want to convey most is that it is reasonable that a vendor require any available proof if it is available.
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I guess my point is that demanding a customs letter will not stop an SR resolution from going ahead, in which case the demand will be deemed unreasonable, as well as a compromise in security. Sending a scanned file that can't be encrypted, anyhow, will potentially compromise the sender and, perhaps, the receiver. It can't be done, and shouldn't. If vendors tally up at the end of the day that, along with losses, they aren't making enough profit then they will naturally drift away. Buyers have to work within the parameters of the vendors, but vendors have to work within the parameters of SR. It seems some vendors are starting to, out of frustration, set the bar too high. It is at this point that SR won't support the vendor in this respect. It's unworkable.
Also, not every country's border control sends a customs letter, only some.
And then what about a customs letter from a non-speaking country? Please don't reply that they would use Google Translate. The vendor would have to type in a foreign language - Russian, Greek, Chinese, to get some translation online. Can you imagine the frustration and downtime?
SR refunding appears not to be limited to customs seizure, but is based on the buyer actually receiving the product. Unless that changes, customs seizure is only part of the possible loss scenarios.
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I guess my point is that demanding a customs letter will not stop an SR resolution from going ahead, in which case the demand will be deemed unreasonable, as well as a compromise in security. Sending a scanned file that can't be encrypted, anyhow, will potentially compromise the sender and, perhaps, the receiver. It can't be done, and shouldn't. If vendors tally up at the end of the day that, along with losses, they aren't making enough profit then they will naturally drift away. Buyers have to work within the parameters of the vendors, but it seems some vendors are starting to, out of frustration, set the bar too high. It is at this point that SR won't support the vendor in this respect. It's unworkable.
SR Support didn't say they won't support the vendor if he asks for proof, they say they will ignore unreasonable policy. They don't say it's unreasonable to ask for proof of seizure.
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I think you will find, Plutopete, that demanding a copy of a customs seizure notice, unencryptable and not universally applied, will be deemed to be unreasonable by SR. Let's wait and see, cos it's gonna be coming up soon, I'm sure.
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It's came up many times mate, I myself have scanned such a letter for a vendor, and received a refund afterwards. I agree that this can't be done for some countries that don't issue seizure letters, but you are suggesting that SR Support will back any buyer that claims non arrival of a package, don't you see how ridiculous that is? :)
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It's came up many times mate, I myself have scanned such a letter for a vendor, and received a refund afterwards. I agree that this can't be done for some countries that don't issue seizure letters, but you are suggesting that SR Support will back any buyer that claims non arrival of a package, don't you see how ridiculous that is? :)
Well that's up to you whether you want to do that or not, but it is a security risk - and it's your ass. Secondly, I think you will find that any vendor that refuses to issue a refund on account of a buyer being unable or unwilling to supply a customs letter will not be supported. Probably what would happen would be a 50/50 split.
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It's came up many times mate, I myself have scanned such a letter for a vendor, and received a refund afterwards. I agree that this can't be done for some countries that don't issue seizure letters, but you are suggesting that SR Support will back any buyer that claims non arrival of a package, don't you see how ridiculous that is? :)
Well that's up to you whether you want to do that or not, but it is a security risk - and it's your ass. Secondly, I think you will find that any vendor that refuses to issue a refund on account of a buyer being unable or unwilling to supply a customs letter will not be supported. Probably what would happen would be a 50/50 split.
If I can prove i posted the package, why should i give a 50% refund when someone claims non delivery with no proof of their claim?
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I've been burned (YES I AM A VENDOR, SO WHAT?) for so much money that I don't even want to disclose how much i've lost because of scamming/leeching customer's demanding reship's because at the time there was no way for me to ship packages tracked, and besides tracking (DCN) is not an end all definitive proof that the buyer is being honest, and is not available in many countries (without going into a post office on camera, which obviously no vendor would do).
Part of the problem is that buyers are not nearly sympathetic enough for their vendor. Buyer's expect vendors to just absorb any losses/costs/troubles regardless of whose at fault (the buyer, or just random bad luck in lost package). I've had HONEST buyers tell me it was very tempting when they received their order to put in a resolution that they didn't receive it because they realized there is no way for the vendor to prove it was delivered ... as if the buyer just assumes the vendor has limitless quantities of gear and money and that there's nothing morally wrong with stealing from the vendor for <fill in ridiculous excuse here>
It's just as easy for a vendor to get burned as it is for a buyer, so if we want to talk this 50/50 talk, vendors shouldn't be shunned for speaking up about being robbed from.
Lastly, if the vendor's profile states that they require a copy of the seizure notice in the shipping policy and you don't like it then DON'T BUY FROM THAT VENDOR! They're our rules to control (capitalism anyone?) and if they are indeed too stringent then the vendor will make no sales. As a vendor I like making sales, so if i'm gettin none and it's because people are upset about my policies it's MY BUSINESS to determine if I want to loosen my policies to get more sales.
So basically your options are :
a. Deal with it, this is an open market
b. Go out and catch every single scammer (please) so that vendor's don't have to go through so much trouble to keep their business interests safe
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If I can prove i posted the package, why should i give a 50% refund when someone claims non delivery with no proof of their claim?
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If you can prove you've sent it, that's another matter, in which you would send your receipt to SR, I presume, and they would determine the outcome. If you are able to, in every case, show you've sent it, then you're on a winner.
The flip-side - and this is the issue here, besides security - is that not every country issues customs letters and definitely not in English, so demanding a customs letter from a buyer in order to issue refunds leaves them at a distinct disadvantage. I haven't come across a vendor yet who has been able to consistently show proof of postage, because most use ordinary mail.
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I've been burned (YES I AM A VENDOR, SO WHAT?) for so much money that I don't even want to disclose how much i've lost because of scamming/leeching customer's demanding reship's because at the time there was no way for me to ship packages tracked, and besides tracking (DCN) is not an end all definitive proof that the buyer is being honest, and is not available in many countries (without going into a post office on camera, which obviously no vendor would do).
Part of the problem is that buyers are not nearly sympathetic enough for their vendor. Buyer's expect vendors to just absorb any losses/costs/troubles regardless of whose at fault (the buyer, or just random bad luck in lost package). I've had HONEST buyers tell me it was very tempting when they received their order to put in a resolution that they didn't receive it because they realized there is no way for the vendor to prove it was delivered ... as if the buyer just assumes the vendor has limitless quantities of gear and money and that there's nothing morally wrong with stealing from the vendor for <fill in ridiculous excuse here>
It's just as easy for a vendor to get burned as it is for a buyer, so if we want to talk this 50/50 talk, vendors shouldn't be shunned for speaking up about being robbed from.
Lastly, if the vendor's profile states that they require a copy of the seizure notice in the shipping policy and you don't like it then DON'T BUY FROM THAT VENDOR! They're our rules to control (capitalism anyone?) and if they are indeed too stringent then the vendor will make no sales. As a vendor I like making sales, so if i'm gettin none and it's because people are upset about my policies it's MY BUSINESS to determine if I want to loosen my policies to get more sales.
So basically your options are :
a. Deal with it, this is an open market
b. Go out and catch every single scammer (please) so that vendor's don't have to go through so much trouble to keep their business interests safe
Well you see, that's where you're wrong. Every capitalist market has regulations; we have ours, it's called SR. Now, I do symapthise about your losses, I really do, but I also have mine. Now if you DO decide to overstep the mark and start demanding unreasonable demands, then you will find that it will be dealt with in resolution (that's why we don't FE). You can't raise the bar ad hock without getting slapped down.
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Well you see, that's where you're wrong. Every capitalist market has regulations; we have ours, it's called SR. Now, I do symapthise about your losses, I really do, but I also have mine. Now if you DO decide to overstep the mark and start demanding unreasonable demands, then you will find that it will be dealt with in resolution (that's why we don't FE). You can't raise the bar ad hock without getting slapped down.
In a capitalist market the 'regulations' are dictated by the business owner (aka the vendor), what you just described is a dictatorship model.
Besides, SR has already implemented it's own global 'regulation', we call it Escrow.
"You can't raise the bar ad hock without getting slapped down."
Yes, I agree, that's exactly what I said in this sentence:
"As a vendor I like making sales, so if i'm gettin none and it's because people are upset about my policies it's MY BUSINESS to determine if I want to loosen my policies to get more sales."
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This is a really tough situation for me personally because I am here primarily for philosophical reasons. Yeah, sure, like everyone in prison is innocent, right? I'm not saying that I don't enjoy the money that I make on Silk Road, but markets like this powered by bitcoin are the wheel. These systems of commerce are as critical to the future economic, social, and political development of our world as the French Revolution.
I am idealistic; I am also totally accurate in my predictions and you will see great institutions fall in the wake of the bitcoin marketplace. Please, please, both buyer and seller, put your needs aside for just a bit of thought for the good of man and the fall of the goverments, corporations, and institutions that rape you over and over and over.
I know that only small steps can be build and become significant, so I am starting by offering to pay for registered mail. If my buyers pay for the customary cost of postage I will take the cost of registered mail out of my pocket as a gesture of good will and to show that I want to treat you well. If this is not agreeable, please help me by creating a new method that defeats the current oppressive system.
A human being is not a cog in the machine- not an element of capital. There is nothing peaceful in the modern world that has the power of a bitcoin-based marketplace to destroy the institutions that destroy people and families. Machine guns and C-4 and fertilizer bombs have this magnitude of power but my weapon of choice is Xanax and bitcoin. We can win. Don't lie to each other because you are only giving up the power that will ultimately set you free. Every "lost" parcel of coke that you snort destroys the movement and every ounce of weed that you smoke after releasing funds helps us build and grow.
You have the power of a nuclear weapon in your hands and nobody has to die for you to win the war. All you need to do is get high and pay for your drug of choice. Let's do this. I want this in my lifetime for all of mankind.
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You have the power of a nuclear weapon in your hands and nobody has to die for you to win the war. All you need to do is get high and pay for your drug of choice. Let's do this. I want this in my lifetime for all of mankind.
Blowing things up with double digit megaton thermonuclear weapons is more fun though !
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Well you see, that's where you're wrong. Every capitalist market has regulations; we have ours, it's called SR. Now, I do symapthise about your losses, I really do, but I also have mine. Now if you DO decide to overstep the mark and start demanding unreasonable demands, then you will find that it will be dealt with in resolution (that's why we don't FE). You can't raise the bar ad hock without getting slapped down.
In a capitalist market the 'regulations' are dictated by the business owner (aka the vendor), what you just described is a dictatorship model.
Besides, SR has already implemented it's own global 'regulation', we call it Escrow.
"You can't raise the bar ad hock without getting slapped down."
Yes, I agree, that's exactly what I said in this sentence:
"As a vendor I like making sales, so if i'm gettin none and it's because people are upset about my policies it's MY BUSINESS to determine if I want to loosen my policies to get more sales."
I'm glad we see eye to eye - almost. I'm afraid it's your business and us buyers' business and SR's business too. It's called regulation. And we're all in it together.
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It's came up many times mate, I myself have scanned such a letter for a vendor, and received a refund afterwards. I agree that this can't be done for some countries that don't issue seizure letters, but you are suggesting that SR Support will back any buyer that claims non arrival of a package, don't you see how ridiculous that is? :)
Well that's up to you whether you want to do that or not, but it is a security risk - and it's your ass. Secondly, I think you will find that any vendor that refuses to issue a refund on account of a buyer being unable or unwilling to supply a customs letter will not be supported. Probably what would happen would be a 50/50 split.
If I can prove i posted the package, why should i give a 50% refund when someone claims non delivery with no proof of their claim?
a package.. unless you use tracking, or at least something that shows an exact destination, its not proof. i say 50/50 is very reasonable if neither side can bring reasonable proof to the table.
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This is one of the scary things for new vendors. I sell weed and want to sell some on here soon.
Your first few customers kind of seem to have the power to make or break you? I only plan to send to the UK and Ireland since i have done it for a while for family and friends off SR. I never lost any small letterbox sized package I sent first class in many years. I know for sure it works or i wouldnt do it.
But if one of my first customers i sent some weed to had say 10 transactions and gives me a 1/5 saying they dont get it what can a new vendor do apart from resend it?
Cant you just use vendors who have a refund policy that you like? I guess also appreciate that you are buying illegal stuff so you should assume some of the risk. I think ppl who give 50% refunds for non arrivals with no proof are very generous indeed.
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i stay within my country, if i order over seas and i know its from a good vendor and it don't show up....fuck me. but i think he has to show he sent it at least.
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Buyers, the bottom line is this:
If you don't feel comfortable ordering and smuggling through customs then don't! The good vendors will get you packages through customs 99% of the time. If the vendor is good at what he does and studies CUSTOMS' policies of the destined country it will go through! If it doesn't it is because a very rare fluke or your address is being watched.
This isn't the vendor's fault and this is why we carry DCN#s to make sure that we aren't getting fucked out of our good will. So, a customs letter is necessary to provide the vendor and SR staff to resolve the matter. If you don't have proof and the vendor does that he shipped then you're going to still pay. This is for trusted vendors and there will always be assholes that will deviate from the standard.
Most of the time vendors will be more than willing to reship in order to maintain his rating and to make sure YOU ARE HAPPY. Just don't go on the boards cussing him/her up and down without using some logic before hand.
I have no sympathy for people like that^^^^^^ and you will be blacklisted from ever buying from me until I receive a formal apology and you prove that you can buy products off SR like an adult.
-SJ
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Buyers, the bottom line is this:
If you don't feel comfortable ordering and smuggling through customs then don't! The good vendors will get you packages through customs 99% of the time. If the vendor is good at what he does and studies CUSTOMS' policies of the destined country it will go through! If it doesn't it is because a very rare fluke or your address is being watched.
This isn't the vendor's fault and this is why we carry DCN#s to make sure that we aren't getting fucked out of our good will. So, a customs letter is necessary to provide the vendor and SR staff to resolve the matter. If you don't have proof and the vendor does that he shipped then you're going to still pay. This is for trusted vendors and there will always be assholes that will deviate from the standard.
Most of the time vendors will be more than willing to reship in order to maintain his rating and to make sure YOU ARE HAPPY. Just don't go on the boards cussing him/her up and down without using some logic before hand.
I have no sympathy for people like that^^^^^^ and you will be blacklisted from ever buying from me until I receive a formal apology and you prove that you can buy products off SR like an adult.
-SJ
That's all good and well, but the bottom line is demanding that a buyer supply a customs letter before providing a refund is unworkable BECAUSE not every country issues them, and secondly sending anything that can not be encrypted, such as a scan, is a security compromise, and should NOT be required.
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That's all good and well, but the bottom line is demanding that a buyer supply a customs letter before providing a refund is unworkable BECAUSE not every country issues them, and secondly sending anything that can not be encrypted, such as a scan, is a security compromise, and should NOT be required.
If you read Vendor X's page and then decided to place an international order with him, you agreed to his terms and conditions. Bitching about them when your package doesn't arrive is rather like chewing out the guy at the convenience store for selling you a losing lottery ticket. You knew the risk going into the transaction yet chose to buy anyway. Now that you're unable to meet their demands, you expect SR to change the T&C you agreed to because you think them "unreasonable."
If you haven't bought from Vendor X, then why do his shipping policies concern you? There are hundreds of other vendors on Silk Road: take your bitcoins elsewhere.
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Buyers, the bottom line is this:
If you don't feel comfortable ordering and smuggling through customs then don't! The good vendors will get you packages through customs 99% of the time. If the vendor is good at what he does and studies CUSTOMS' policies of the destined country it will go through! If it doesn't it is because a very rare fluke or your address is being watched.
This isn't the vendor's fault and this is why we carry DCN#s to make sure that we aren't getting fucked out of our good will. So, a customs letter is necessary to provide the vendor and SR staff to resolve the matter. If you don't have proof and the vendor does that he shipped then you're going to still pay. This is for trusted vendors and there will always be assholes that will deviate from the standard.
Most of the time vendors will be more than willing to reship in order to maintain his rating and to make sure YOU ARE HAPPY. Just don't go on the boards cussing him/her up and down without using some logic before hand.
I have no sympathy for people like that^^^^^^ and you will be blacklisted from ever buying from me until I receive a formal apology and you prove that you can buy products off SR like an adult.
-SJ
That's all good and well, but the bottom line is demanding that a buyer supply a customs letter before providing a refund is unworkable BECAUSE not every country issues them, and secondly sending anything that can not be encrypted, such as a scan, is a security compromise, and should NOT be required.
just as demanding dcn's and proof of posting is a security compromise and should not be required. :)
So what do you think is reasonable, an automatic reship or 100% refund?
What protection would you give to vendors from scammers claiming non delivery?
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That's all good and well, but the bottom line is demanding that a buyer supply a customs letter before providing a refund is unworkable BECAUSE not every country issues them, and secondly sending anything that can not be encrypted, such as a scan, is a security compromise, and should NOT be required.
If you read Vendor X's page and then decided to place an international order with him, you agreed to his terms and conditions. Bitching about them when your package doesn't arrive is rather like chewing out the guy at the convenience store for selling you a losing lottery ticket. You knew the risk going into the transaction yet chose to buy anyway. Now that you're unable to meet their demands, you expect SR to change the T&C you agreed to because you think them "unreasonable."
If you haven't bought from Vendor X, then why do his shipping policies concern you? There are hundreds of other vendors on Silk Road: take your bitcoins elsewhere.
The answer is quite simple: because this is going beyond SR policy, and fair play for that matter, where vendors start making their own rules to suit themselves. It's like demanding FE before shipping. It's against the rules. When it's challenged in resolution, vendors who demand "customs letter or no refund" will find that SR will not back this. It's unreasonable and unworkable. And vendors who do Do this need to be pulled into line, and will be.
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Buyers, the bottom line is this:
If you don't feel comfortable ordering and smuggling through customs then don't! The good vendors will get you packages through customs 99% of the time. If the vendor is good at what he does and studies CUSTOMS' policies of the destined country it will go through! If it doesn't it is because a very rare fluke or your address is being watched.
This isn't the vendor's fault and this is why we carry DCN#s to make sure that we aren't getting fucked out of our good will. So, a customs letter is necessary to provide the vendor and SR staff to resolve the matter. If you don't have proof and the vendor does that he shipped then you're going to still pay. This is for trusted vendors and there will always be assholes that will deviate from the standard.
Most of the time vendors will be more than willing to reship in order to maintain his rating and to make sure YOU ARE HAPPY. Just don't go on the boards cussing him/her up and down without using some logic before hand.
I have no sympathy for people like that^^^^^^ and you will be blacklisted from ever buying from me until I receive a formal apology and you prove that you can buy products off SR like an adult.
-SJ
That's all good and well, but the bottom line is demanding that a buyer supply a customs letter before providing a refund is unworkable BECAUSE not every country issues them, and secondly sending anything that can not be encrypted, such as a scan, is a security compromise, and should NOT be required.
just as demanding dcn's and proof of posting is a security compromise and should not be required. :)
So what do you think is reasonable, an automatic reship or 100% refund?
What protection would you give to vendors from scammers claiming non delivery?
You're right, demanding dcn's and proof of posting from vendors is ALSO a security compromise, and it can't be enforced. And I haven't come across a vendor yet who was willing to prove THEY sent it by doing this. That's because most vendors don't use tracking or registration, so really have no proof. Whether vendors offer 100% refund or reship is perhaps up to them and maybe SR, during resolution. That's why resolution is there. Splitting the difference is at least minimum fairness. Demanding customs notices is not.
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If you read Vendor X's page and then decided to place an international order with him, you agreed to his terms and conditions. Bitching about them when your package doesn't arrive is rather like chewing out the guy at the convenience store for selling you a losing lottery ticket. You knew the risk going into the transaction yet chose to buy anyway. Now that you're unable to meet their demands, you expect SR to change the T&C you agreed to because you think them "unreasonable."
If you haven't bought from Vendor X, then why do his shipping policies concern you? There are hundreds of other vendors on Silk Road: take your bitcoins elsewhere.
The answer is quite simple: because this is going beyond SR policy, and fair play for that matter, where vendors start making their own rules to suit themselves. It's like demanding FE before shipping. It's against the rules. When it's challenged in resolution, vendors who demand "customs letter or no refund" will find that SR will not back this. It's unreasonable and unworkable. And vendors who do Do this need to be pulled into line, and will be.
Fascinating. So you, apparently, believe SR administrators should protect SR users from their own decisions. Do you also believe governments should protect us from our decisions to use drugs?
I don't see the issue here. The vendor states that he won't issue a refund on an international order without seeing a customs letter. There are many vendors who require FE on international orders and others whose vendor pages state flatly that there will be no refunds on international orders, period. And do vendors who only sell to domestic customers "need to be pulled into line" because they're unreasonably depriving international customers of the right to buy their product?
With all this butthurt, you may want to find a vendor who sells hemorrhoid cream. Make sure he ships domestically.
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If you read Vendor X's page and then decided to place an international order with him, you agreed to his terms and conditions. Bitching about them when your package doesn't arrive is rather like chewing out the guy at the convenience store for selling you a losing lottery ticket. You knew the risk going into the transaction yet chose to buy anyway. Now that you're unable to meet their demands, you expect SR to change the T&C you agreed to because you think them "unreasonable."
If you haven't bought from Vendor X, then why do his shipping policies concern you? There are hundreds of other vendors on Silk Road: take your bitcoins elsewhere.
The answer is quite simple: because this is going beyond SR policy, and fair play for that matter, where vendors start making their own rules to suit themselves. It's like demanding FE before shipping. It's against the rules. When it's challenged in resolution, vendors who demand "customs letter or no refund" will find that SR will not back this. It's unreasonable and unworkable. And vendors who do Do this need to be pulled into line, and will be.
Fascinating. So you, apparently, believe SR administrators should protect SR users from their own decisions. Do you also believe governments should protect us from our decisions to use drugs?
I don't see the issue here. The vendor states that he won't issue a refund on an international order without seeing a customs letter. There are many vendors who require FE on international orders and others whose vendor pages state flatly that there will be no refunds on international orders, period. And do vendors who only sell to domestic customers "need to be pulled into line" because they're unreasonably depriving international customers of the right to buy their product?
With all this butthurt, you may want to find a vendor who sells hemorrhoid cream. Make sure he ships domestically.
That's you don't want to see the glaring issue here Wiz, probably because it suits you this way (vendor by any chance?). No, the ones that need to be pulled into line are the ones whose demands are unreasonable ie. customs letter for refund. And you can put your hemorrhoid cream up there along with your wand, Twinkle Toes.
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So, what is the problem again? Did you get your order seized? How do you know? Explain again and maybe someone can shed some light onto this fiasco.
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That's you don't want to see the glaring issue here Wiz, probably because it suits you this way (vendor by any chance?). No, the ones that need to be pulled into line are the ones whose demands are unreasonable ie. customs letter for refund. And you can put your hemorrhoid cream up there along with your wand, Twinkle Toes.
How DID you figure out I was a vendor, when I so cleverly hid the link to my vendor page in my signature? The detective skills you've acquired in your new role as self-appointed snitch to SR admins are clearly serving you well. I bet you won all sorts of hall monitor badges in your high school.
Assuming this was your order, perhaps next time you'll apply those detective skills to reading the terms and conditions before you send your bitcoins.
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I dont see how scanning the customs letter exposes you to any danger.
The seller and you both know what was in the pack that was seized and he already knows the address you gave him to ship LOL.
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There's no fiasco. The issue is that some vendors, in their frustration, are going too far in demanding things that are going beyond the pale. No vendor can serious expect to win a case in Resolution where they refuse to issue a refund based on a buyer being unable to supply a customs letter. It's gone too far. Vendors refusing to sell unless buyers FE is too far. It needs to be based on a buyer's reputation. In that case, the vendors refuses to sell and keeps within SR guidelines.
Just as stupid are buyers who, for some unknown reason, simply FE without even being asked to do and then have no recourse if a delivery fails. In those two categories, buyers and vendors are working outside of SR guidelines, and things are therefore bound to unravel. If buyers want to be stupid, then it's their choice, but we can't allow vendors to start dictating terms as though they can do whatever they want. They can't. That's the point, and some vendors just don't seem to get it. Hence the 'customs letter' issue we have now.
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I dont see how scanning the customs letter exposes you to any danger.
The seller and you both know what was in the pack that was seized and he already knows the address you gave him to ship LOL.
Well that depends if you encrypt or nor not, Fred. You can't encrypt a scan. If it ever got intercepted... Besides, like I said before, not every country issues customs letters.
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There's no fiasco. The issue is that some vendors, in their frustration, are going too far in demanding things that are going beyond the pale. No vendor can serious expect to win a case in Resolution where they refuse to issue a refund based on a buyer being unable to supply a customs letter. It's gone too far. Vendors refusing to sell unless buyers FE is too far. It needs to be based on a buyer's reputation. In that case, the vendors refuses to sell and keeps within SR guidelines.
Just as stupid are buyers who, for some unknown reason, simply FE without even being asked to do and then have no recourse if a delivery fails. In those two categories, buyers and vendors are working outside of SR guidelines, and things are therefore bound to unravel. If buyers want to be stupid, then it's their choice, but we can't allow vendors to start dictating terms as though they can do whatever they want. They can't. That's the point, and some vendors just don't seem to get it. Hence the 'customs letter' issue we have now.
So exactly who are you to dictate what is and is not SR guidelines regarding international shipping and vendor refund policy? I'm not exactly sure why it is you think you have any particular say regarding what Silk Road can or cannot allow. Or why it is you think things are "bound to unravel" if one vendor wants a customs letter before issuing refunds on an international order.
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That's you don't want to see the glaring issue here Wiz, probably because it suits you this way (vendor by any chance?). No, the ones that need to be pulled into line are the ones whose demands are unreasonable ie. customs letter for refund. And you can put your hemorrhoid cream up there along with your wand, Twinkle Toes.
How DID you figure out I was a vendor, when I so cleverly hid the link to my vendor page in my signature? The detective skills you've acquired in your new role as self-appointed snitch to SR admins are clearly serving you well. I bet you won all sorts of hall monitor badges in your high school.
Assuming this was your order, perhaps next time you'll apply those detective skills to reading the terms and conditions before you send your bitcoins.
Well, there you go GrandFizz, you're just protectin' yer patch, so we can't expect anything much from you can we?
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Well, there you go GrandFizz, you're just protectin' yer patch, so we can't expect anything much from you can we?
Sorry you lost money on a transaction because you failed to read the fine print. Hope you're smarter next time. Looking forward to hearing DPR and other SR admins come on and accede to all your demands. I'm sure it will be happening real soon now.
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There's no fiasco. The issue is that some vendors, in their frustration, are going too far in demanding things that are going beyond the pale. No vendor can serious expect to win a case in Resolution where they refuse to issue a refund based on a buyer being unable to supply a customs letter. It's gone too far. Vendors refusing to sell unless buyers FE is too far. It needs to be based on a buyer's reputation. In that case, the vendors refuses to sell and keeps within SR guidelines.
Just as stupid are buyers who, for some unknown reason, simply FE without even being asked to do and then have no recourse if a delivery fails. In those two categories, buyers and vendors are working outside of SR guidelines, and things are therefore bound to unravel. If buyers want to be stupid, then it's their choice, but we can't allow vendors to start dictating terms as though they can do whatever they want. They can't. That's the point, and some vendors just don't seem to get it. Hence the 'customs letter' issue we have now.
So exactly who are you to dictate what is and is not SR guidelines regarding international shipping and vendor refund policy? I'm not exactly sure why it is you think you have any particular say regarding what Silk Road can or cannot allow. Or why it is you think things are "bound to unravel" if one vendor wants a customs letter before issuing refunds on an international order.
Well, Fizz, that's because you would be asking for something that is not universally handed out. Maybe in the good 'ol US of A they might do so before busting your crystal balls, but in other places they may not. This ain't Kansas, Fizz. And to demand something from buyers that may not be sent to them is...unworkable and unfair. And SR would not side with a vendor whose gone all rabid demanding such things.
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Well, there you go GrandFizz, you're just protectin' yer patch, so we can't expect anything much from you can we?
Sorry you lost money on a transaction because you failed to read the fine print. Hope you're smarter next time. Looking forward to hearing DPR and other SR admins come on and accede to all your demands. I'm sure it will be happening real soon now.
I haven't lost anything. You're missing the point, Fizz.
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Well, there you go GrandFizz, you're just protectin' yer patch, so we can't expect anything much from you can we?
Sorry you lost money on a transaction because you failed to read the fine print. Hope you're smarter next time. Looking forward to hearing DPR and other SR admins come on and accede to all your demands. I'm sure it will be happening real soon now.
I haven't lost anything. You're missing the point, Fizz.
I don't see why it's unreasonable when a buyer claims to have received a love letter from customs to ask for a copy of the same. Surely it can't reveal any more personal information than the buyer has already sent to the vendor i.e name and address? I certainly would expect as much from my clients before I agreed to a refund but then I only deal in legal products!
V.
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Really? This guy is a fucking tool!
Dude, you had several people trying to help you out, but all you did was prance around throwing a temper. I even PM'd you about who did it. What you ordered. And how I could help you, but you're in such a rage mood that you disregard everyone's attempt to reconcile with your situation.
Either grow the fuck up and realize that this shit isn't Wal Mart or fucking cry in a corner! No one is going to give your money back because you can't provide proof that customs took your order. Deal with it!
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Well that depends if you encrypt or nor not, Fred. You can't encrypt a scan.
Sure you can. Scan the document, save as a jpeg, encrypt using the vendor's key. With GPG the command would be something like:
>gpg -e /dir/orangejuicecustomsletter.jpg -r "Vendor X"
The file will then be saved as orangejuicecustomsletter.jpg.gpg. Upon receipt Vendor X will decrypt using his private key and the command line
>gpg /dir/orangejuicecustomsletter.jpg.gpg
With that he would have no problem viewing a scan and you, presumably, would have no problem providing an encrypted copy to him and, if necessary, to SR admins. If you need any more help with that, ask Pine, Guru or Louis Cyphre or do a quick search: there are a bunch of PGP experts on the forums.
Really? This guy is a fucking tool!
Dude, you had several people trying to help you out, but all you did was prance around throwing a temper. I even PM'd you about who did it. What you ordered. And how I could help you, but you're in such a rage mood that you disregard everyone's attempt to reconcile with your situation.
Either grow the fuck up and realize that this shit isn't Wal Mart or fucking cry in a corner! No one is going to give your money back because you can't provide proof that customs took your order. Deal with it!
It amazes me that some people think Silk Road should be like eBay only with drugs. They don't want to listen to big brother when he tells them not to do drugs, but they want him to jump in for them when they get burned.
At this point I don't even know who did what to this guy, but if he did get scammed he certainly isn't helping his cause. I've been on his side of the equation and it always sucks to lose money. But if you're going to play on the black market you have to figure it's buyer beware. And you have to appreciate the protections SR currently provides rather than making loud demands about how they have to change the whole system Because I Say So.
Since you had a transaction with Vendor X, I presume you already sent him your address encrypted and hence have his public key. I'm guessing the command
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You can't encrypt a scan.
What the fuck are you smoking? GPG/PGP is fully capable of encrypting scans and any other file you want to give it.
It provides a text output (Ascii Armored) which can be sent via SR or plain text e-mail.
Hell, I have encrypted whole fucking hard drive images with GPG. You can not mount them with out decrypting them first but it does work.
From what I can tell, that is your only real reason for bitching about the requirement of sending a copy of the customs letter. Agree, not all countries send one and they may not all be in English however, if a vendor wants to require proof then so be it.
I may be wrong here but I believe that if the package was shipped and proof of shipment is provided by the vendor then SR rules in the vendors favor. Again, I may be wrong but even providing a 50/50 on a lost, stolen, or confiscated package is up to the vendor.
I state on my vendor page that if it ships and the DCN shows delivered then there is no refund, ever! However, you can not do a DCN on most international orders so I have to trust that the buyer will be honest. For me, the international buyer gets one free replacement, that one replacement also puts there name on a list that I maintain. If they order again, I may or may not sell to them based on the buyers attitude and communications. If the second package gets "lost" They are shit out of luck, I will refuse business with them and will let several other vendors know.
Of 4 international shipments I have made so far, 3 have claimed to not receive the product. In all 3 cases I reshipped and they got it the second time around. Which is really odd because these were shipped in standard envelops as first class mail. No customs declaration, No indication it was anything other than a letter to the person and the item was not something that should have been flagged or confiscated. In two of the 3, the item was not even illegal in the country it was going to.
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Well, there you go GrandFizz, you're just protectin' yer patch, so we can't expect anything much from you can we?
Sorry you lost money on a transaction because you failed to read the fine print. Hope you're smarter next time. Looking forward to hearing DPR and other SR admins come on and accede to all your demands. I'm sure it will be happening real soon now.
I haven't lost anything. You're missing the point, Fizz.
I don't see why it's unreasonable when a buyer claims to have received a love letter from customs to ask for a copy of the same. Surely it can't reveal any more personal information than the buyer has already sent to the vendor i.e name and address? I certainly would expect as much from my clients before I agreed to a refund but then I only deal in legal products!
V.
And what about if a country does not give out customs letters? What do you do then? Demand what can not be given? Again, you can't demand things that are not issued.
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You can't encrypt a scan.
What the fuck are you smoking? GPG/PGP is fully capable of encrypting scans and any other file you want to give it.
It provides a text output (Ascii Armored) which can be sent via SR or plain text e-mail.
Hell, I have encrypted whole fucking hard drive images with GPG. You can not mount them with out decrypting them first but it does work.
From what I can tell, that is your only real reason for bitching about the requirement of sending a copy of the customs letter. Agree, not all countries send one and they may not all be in English however, if a vendor wants to require proof then so be it.
I may be wrong here but I believe that if the package was shipped and proof of shipment is provided by the vendor then SR rules in the vendors favor. Again, I may be wrong but even providing a 50/50 on a lost, stolen, or confiscated package is up to the vendor.
I state on my vendor page that if it ships and the DCN shows delivered then there is no refund, ever! However, you can not do a DCN on most international orders so I have to trust that the buyer will be honest. For me, the international buyer gets one free replacement, that one replacement also puts there name on a list that I maintain. If they order again, I may or may not sell to them based on the buyers attitude and communications. If the second package gets "lost" They are shit out of luck, I will refuse business with them and will let several other vendors know.
Of 4 international shipments I have made so far, 3 have claimed to not receive the product. In all 3 cases I reshipped and they got it the second time around. Which is really odd because these were shipped in standard envelops as first class mail. No customs declaration, No indication it was anything other than a letter to the person and the item was not something that should have been flagged or confiscated. In two of the 3, the item was not even illegal in the country it was going to.
Just to quote you there Flyboy, "I may be wrong here but I believe that if the package was shipped and proof of shipment is provided by the vendor then SR rules in the vendors favor. Again, I may be wrong but even providing a 50/50 on a lost, stolen, or confiscated package is up to the vendor."
response: if you have proof that you sent it, why would you want a customs letter from a buyer who probably didn't receive one, anyway? If you have your proof. Be happy. I'm sure SR will smile down on you.
second quote "However, you can not do a DCN on most international orders so I have to trust that the buyer will be honest." response: Exactly, I think you are finally getting the point. Merchants usually have no proof they sent it; buyers usually have no proof that it was confiscated. |So asking for a customs letter is about as dumb as a buyer asking for proof from a vendor that it was sent.
Now, that we have cleared that up, I suggest you stop dipping into your own lolly bag for a while.
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Dude? PM me and tell me what you ordered! Maybe I can help. If I can't I know someone who can.
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Really? This guy is a fucking tool!
Dude, you had several people trying to help you out, but all you did was prance around throwing a temper. I even PM'd you about who did it. What you ordered. And how I could help you, but you're in such a rage mood that you disregard everyone's attempt to reconcile with your situation.
Either grow the fuck up and realize that this shit isn't Wal Mart or fucking cry in a corner! No one is going to give your money back because you can't provide proof that customs took your order. Deal with it!
Prancing around? Not me, I'm calm. I haven't lost an item. I don't need your 'help', Bubba. I just don't want dick vendors out there, who seem to think that they can start making up rules as they go along, to feel like they own this space without regulation. Ridiculous demands will be overturned no matter how much wailing and gnashing on your part. Now, go have a nice cup of tea like a good boy...
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Dude? PM me and tell me what you ordered! Maybe I can help. If I can't I know someone who can.
Dude, what you can do to help is to simply agree with me that no vendor is in a position to prove that they have sent an item. AND to agree with me that not every buyer has a nice little customs letter to show that it was confiscated. AND to agree that for a VENDOR to ask for a customs letter before doling out a refund is just as ridiculous as a BUYER asking for proof that an item was sent, in particular, ordinary mail. If you can see my point, then you have helped not only me, but all of us who can see the stupidity of any vendor who demands this. It just ain't gonna fly.
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Everybody say it with me..................................."WINNING!!!!!"
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Everybody say it with me..................................."WINNING!!!!!"
I'm guessing his first three purchases on SR were MDPV, a crack pipe, and some porn mpegs.
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Everybody say it with me..................................."WINNING!!!!!"
I'm guessing his first three purchases on SR were MDPV, a crack pipe, and some porn mpegs.
Haha that's funny. Anyway I'm new here, but I don't know how anyone would expect anything without a customs letter or some proof that package was not received. Unfortunately this world is full of low-life losers who can't be honest in their business transactions. I've lost a little money here and there dealing with online vendors, but in all I've had pretty good luck. It's a risk we take in this business. Among many others...
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second quote "However, you can not do a DCN on most international orders so I have to trust that the buyer will be honest." response: Exactly, I think you are finally getting the point. Merchants usually have no proof they sent it; buyers usually have no proof that it was confiscated. |So asking for a customs letter is about as dumb as a buyer asking for proof from a vendor that it was sent.
Now, that we have cleared that up, I suggest you stop dipping into your own lolly bag for a while.
May not be able to do a DCN, but you can do a Certificate of mailing which is proof you mailed it. You just can not prove that the person received it.
So, requesting a proof of confiscation seems ok by me. But that is a resolution issue and not an SR issue. If the vendor wants proof of confiscation to provide a 50%, 75%, 100% refund or a reship then it is his policy. If the vendor can prove shipment then he has done his part and (Again, I could be wrong here) SR would rule in his favor.
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OP is just being a whiny whore.
No customs letter, DCN, no tracking? Well those are the requirements for someone to go fist themselves I'm afraid. :)
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Oh and I just got your report for Skippy's post. In response to that no OrangeJuice it is in fact you that is the tool and therefore I must ask you to hush ya gums quick-time and hope that God has mercy on your soul for wasting 10 seconds of my life having to read your pointless report.
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Everybody say it with me..................................."WINNING!!!!!"
I'm guessing his first three purchases on SR were MDPV, a crack pipe, and some porn mpegs.
Seeing that you have nothing intelligent to say, I guess I've made my point.
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second quote "However, you can not do a DCN on most international orders so I have to trust that the buyer will be honest." response: Exactly, I think you are finally getting the point. Merchants usually have no proof they sent it; buyers usually have no proof that it was confiscated. |So asking for a customs letter is about as dumb as a buyer asking for proof from a vendor that it was sent.
Now, that we have cleared that up, I suggest you stop dipping into your own lolly bag for a while.
May not be able to do a DCN, but you can do a Certificate of mailing which is proof you mailed it. You just can not prove that the person received it.
So, requesting a proof of confiscation seems ok by me. But that is a resolution issue and not an SR issue. If the vendor wants proof of confiscation to provide a 50%, 75%, 100% refund or a reship then it is his policy. If the vendor can prove shipment then he has done his part and (Again, I could be wrong here) SR would rule in his favor.
Thanks for some proper input here. We have a couple of idiot vendors here that are trying to dominate this discussion, fuck 'em.
Your point is fair. If the vendor has proof of it being sent, then it probably goes in their favour in resolution, by what percentage, who knows. But requesting a proof of confiscation is not going to work because not every country issues them, and not in English, so you have language issues as well. A vendor can in theory 100% of the time get proof of postage if they decide to track or whatever. But a buyer will not always receive a certificate. A vendor demanding a certificate from someone in Hungary does not know if that country issues certificates. How can they demand something that is not issued? Secondly, they probably wouldn't be able to read it anyway. So it's unworkable.
I challenge any vendor to go down that line and see how far they get in resolution. You won't win under that premise. Showing proof of postage would be the only option, and many would not be able to do that, anyhow. So, would a certificate be enough to totally lose a refund for a buyer? One would find out in resolution.
It must not be allowed for vendors to simply issue refunds based on customs certificates.
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Oh and I just got your report for Skippy's post. In response to that no OrangeJuice it is in fact you that is the tool and therefore I must ask you to hush ya gums quick-time and hope that God has mercy on your soul for wasting 10 seconds of my life having to read your pointless report.
Well, piss off then.
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Oh and I just got your report for Skippy's post. In response to that no OrangeJuice it is in fact you that is the tool and therefore I must ask you to hush ya gums quick-time and hope that God has mercy on your soul for wasting 10 seconds of my life having to read your pointless report.
Well, piss off then.
No I think that's for you to do on this one. I read this thread and to be honest it almost sounds like you are trying to pull a fast one, the burden of proof falls on you to prove it didn't make it. Accept it or not that's how it is, at the moment you are acting like a little girl so be a man and take it on the chin.
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LOL a forum moderator just told you 3 times to stop flapping your gums, yet you persist. Oh the world we live in.
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But requesting a proof of confiscation is not going to work because not every country issues them, and not in English, so you have language issues as well.
Нет у вас есть языковые проблемы.
Tudom, hogy jó néhány nyelven, és az is, nem tudom tudom használni a fordító a
Zelfs uw taalkwestie is een betwistbaar een
لذا يرجى وقف كله مع "كنت متعود أعرف ما تقول" الاشياء، لأنه ليس صحيحا حتى.
Now that I have explained the language issue above, The remaining issues is proof of confiscation not being issued in every country. That may be true however, requiring it is up to the vendor and it is up to the vendor to make a judgment call as to the truth of the buyer as to the issuance of the confiscation letter. However we are business people trying to make a buck. If the vendor requires a letter then so be it, Just like a retail store requiring a copy of the receipt to exchange or return an item.
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OP is just being a whiny whore.
No customs letter, DCN, no tracking? Well those are the requirements for someone to go fist themselves I'm afraid. :)
Well said Lim,
As for the language issue, it doesn't even enter into it. Send the vendor the letter, they can easily run it through Google to check it's kosher. As for some countries not issuing letters, the buyer can always ask for written confirmation of this in itself!
V.
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As a buyer I'd be quite willing to buy from a vendor who didn't offer any refund providing he took as much precautions as possible to get it through and could show a good track record.I know I'm buying something illegal therefore if it gets seized I don't see what right I have to complain. It's not like you've been ripped off by a street dealer selling you baby laxative or aspirin. Anyone whose packaiging was below par would soon be out of business as no one would go back to him. If I buy electronic goods and they get seized and I have to pay tax on them I wouldn't expect the shop shipping the goods to pay it, they fulfilled their end of the bargain, I knew the risk, I took the chance, I pay the penalty..
Of course, all goes without saying packaging has to be as stealthy as possible and and a refund system does make a vendor think long and hard about best way to package so some incentive is helpful.
Maybe another way to do it would be to give 50% value of the seizure off the next order from that vendor then both parties lose a little for what is a risk both are taking. The vendor makes takes a loss on what he is selling and the buyer loses half the value of what was seized.
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OP is just being a whiny whore.
No customs letter, DCN, no tracking? Well those are the requirements for someone to go fist themselves I'm afraid. :)
Well said Lim,
As for the language issue, it doesn't even enter into it. Send the vendor the letter, they can easily run it through Google to check it's kosher. As for some countries not issuing letters, the buyer can always ask for written confirmation of this in itself!
V.
Exactly, as a Vendor you have to make a judgement call and believe me most of the time people are so see-through it's unreal. That's why unless I really believe (and there certainly are signs that identify this) them it's zero-tolerance. If the OP had been dealing with me I'd have got to the point where I'd be so pissed off I'd be describing how I'd like to have sex with his mother at this point. That would be on SR though....not here... ::)