Silk Road forums
Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: Limetless on June 17, 2012, 05:50 pm
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How is it, in any way, in any conceivable way, in any way that anyone has ever conceived, please explain how it is in any way that has ever been conceived ever in the history of the world a good idea to even think of voting for communists to sort out this financial crisis? Because it isn't I'm afraid, and as such please cease to do so.
Regards,
Limetless
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It's an endless cycle people never learn from. Whenever there is widespread poverty, people start to cry out for communism. And then it fails miserably.
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How is it, in any way, in any conceivable way, in any way that anyone has ever conceived, please explain how it is in any way that has ever been conceived ever in the history of the world a good idea to even think of voting for communists to sort out this financial crisis? Because it isn't I'm afraid, and as such please cease to do so.
Regards,
Limetless
I am currently re reading "Das Kapital" and while Marx may have been quite the idealist it seems he doesn't give much thought as to how to transform Communism into a workable system.
As much as I admire what Communism and (by dint of this Socialism) attempts to achieve,in its very nature it quashes the spirit of self determination and entrepreneurship that is the very solution to this crisis.
Sad to say if they continue down this route I think they'll be forced to withdraw from the Euro- this of course will trigger a run on the banks as Greeks are desperate to withdraw their Euros before their automatically converted to near worthless drachmas and will cause businesses to lose faith in financial institutions overall once again spiralling the country further into debt.
To all our Greek friends : this was why your government introduced austerity measures like cutting your minimum wage and laying off jobs. Not because they wanted to enforce ruthless capitalist greed but because it was the only way to stop your country becoming a Hooverville slum - let's hope the European bank is willing to throw good money after bad is all I can say.
V.
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The only way out of this crisis is for all national debt to be wiped out, for every nation, and then start from scratch again. Of course that isn't going to happen so we will watch a lot of countries go down the swanny completely. No country will ever pay back all its debt, especially not in the Eurozone. I'm Irish, and we are in a particularly bad situation...we need another bailout in order to contribute to Spain's loan for their bail out! It doesn't make sense!
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It's an endless cycle people never learn from. Whenever there is widespread poverty, people start to cry out for communism. And then it fails miserably.
Yeah I know, either that or Fascism and it always ends in tears dropping in the form of secret police, disappearances, Gulags, concentration camps, purges, holocausts, political repression, freedom being taken away, 70 years of the USSR, Statues of Mao; Lenin; Stalin; the Family Kim, an obsession with military clothing and bad mustaches. None of these being good for anyone really.
I don't know why the Greeks can't suck it the fuck up, they were happy to live in their corrupt and fiscally retarded state while it was churning out bad debt and the good life that went with it. Nobody protested that. If you do something that's going to have bad consequences, those bad consequences tend to come back around and bite you in the ass.
And lol Vlad that's why Marx is such a fucking false profit. He had all these big ideas but couldn't even be arsed to make it into a working system (or, knew damn well he couldn't). Really can't stand Karl Marx, one of the biggest cunts in history IMO. Up there with Hitler and Satan in the top-bastards in all humanity list.
And yeah I know, that's the funny shit. They are STILL thinking about the here and now rather than what is best in the long term.
Greece can you just chill out and see the light through the dark please, this is just how shit has to go down I'm afraid.
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The only way out of this crisis is for all national debt to be wiped out, for every nation, and then start from scratch again. Of course that isn't going to happen so we will watch a lot of countries go down the swanny completely. No country will ever pay back all its debt, especially not in the Eurozone. I'm Irish, and we are in a particularly bad situation...we need another bailout in order to contribute to Spain's loan for their bail out! It doesn't make sense!
LOL that wouldn't solve anything because wiping out a national debt like that would just bring everyone else into free-fall. Basic economics mate. You can't just erase debt because it means that other debt becomes worthless. You just have to suck it up and take the pain.
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i say they should start eating their rich, its all there really good for
well thats what Steve Tyler told me anyway.....
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The only way out of this crisis is for all national debt to be wiped out, for every nation, and then start from scratch again. Of course that isn't going to happen so we will watch a lot of countries go down the swanny completely. No country will ever pay back all its debt, especially not in the Eurozone. I'm Irish, and we are in a particularly bad situation...we need another bailout in order to contribute to Spain's loan for their bail out! It doesn't make sense!
LOL that wouldn't solve anything because wiping out a national debt like that would just bring everyone else into free-fall. Basic economics mate. You can't just erase debt because it means that other debt becomes worthless. You just have to suck it up and take the pain.
I know yeah, just wishful thinking on my part! We're getting screwed here in Ireland and our leaders have obviously never heard of KY or Vaseline, so it hurts very badly! ;-)
I was both lucky enough and young enough not to get caught up in the property bubble that we had, so I am doing a lot better than a lot of people over here, who are paying mortgages on houses that have a 1/4 of their purchase value!
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It's an endless cycle people never learn from. Whenever there is widespread poverty, people start to cry out for communism. And then it fails miserably.
Yeah I know, either that or Fascism and it always ends in tears dropping in the form of secret police, disappearances, Gulags, concentration camps, purges, holocausts, political repression, freedom being taken away, 70 years of the USSR, Statues of Mao; Lenin; Stalin; the Family Kim, an obsession with military clothing and bad mustaches. None of these being good for anyone really.
I don't know why the Greeks can't suck it the fuck up, they were happy to live in their corrupt and fiscally retarded state while it was churning out bad debt and the good life that went with it. Nobody protested that. If you do something that's going to have bad consequences, those bad consequences tend to come back around and bite you in the ass.
And lol Vlad that's why Marx is such a fucking false profit. He had all these big ideas but couldn't even be arsed to make it into a working system (or, knew damn well he couldn't). Really can't stand Karl Marx, one of the biggest cunts in history IMO. Up there with Hitler and Satan in the top-bastards in all humanity list.
And yeah I know, that's the funny shit. They are STILL thinking about the here and now rather than what is best in the long term.
Greece can you just chill out and see the light through the dark please, this is just how shit has to go down I'm afraid.
Of course we knew it wouldn't be long before well meaning Socialists came along and told us that Capitalism was the problem - which to me is a little like saying a Hospital is the reason there are so many sick people lying around.
I mean I get it. We know it's not down to the charity and kindheartedness of our local baker that he sells us a loaf of bread to eat, it's his self interest in selling it.
The Communists would have us remove that self interest by owning the means of production - a very well meaning idea but we've seen how it worked in practice ; huge food shortages caused by inefficiently run state farms in the USSR, waiting lists as long as five years to buy a car in Eastern Germany and so on.
Removing the choice to take their money elsewhere also creates an unhealthy dependency on the government by its citizens, one which the Communists in Greece seem keen to implement.
I'm currently re-reading a book I bought on Silk Road a couple of weeks ago named "The Offshore Road to Riches" which contains a brilliant quote from the great Alan Greenspan:
The welfare state is nothing more than a mechanism by which government confiscate the wealth of the productive members of a society to support a whole variety of welfare schemes
Communism in my humble opinion is just an extreme example of this principle!
As you say Lim, Greece is simply going to have to ride these punches as the alternative is too terrifying to contemplate!
V.
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Yeah it was obvious that the dirty Reds would come out of the woodwork at some point, it's just ridiculous that people think it's a good idea to make the same mistake not once, not twice, not 5 times but whatever number of Communist/Socialist states there are out there implementing their misery to their people...and by people I mean slaves.
And yeah I agree, I do believe in some forms of welfare but certainly nothing like we have in the U.K. I don't make money to pay for people to do fuck all with their lives, I would however make money to help the sick, needy and others that genuinely are in need. Until that time though, I will be content to not help anyone and just go on well expensive holidays. :)
50p on the £1? Fuck right off.
It's not that their is an alternative in my opinion. You either ride the punches or there is doom and unless you are completely fucking stupid doom isn't something that people generally consider an option. It's like that Eddie Izzard sketch "Cake or Death?"...what the fuck you gunna pick lol? Problem is that the idiots in Greece clearly think that doom is a viable option.
And lol at that "Eating their rich" comment. Typical anti-wealth bullshit.
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Oh and Vlad I don't admire Communism or Socialism, they are evil systems that try and deceive the individual into giving up the power to think for yourself and make from themselves all that they can be and they do it with lies about the greater good for everyone. Sounds lovely at the time but then as soon as it's implemented BOOM! You are a slave to the red flag.
Socialism/Communism are almost indistinguishable with Fascism/Nazism when you break down the layers. Nazism was a form of Socialism...what does that tell you?
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How is it, in any way, in any conceivable way, in any way that anyone has ever conceived, please explain how it is in any way that has ever been conceived ever in the history of the world a good idea to even think of voting for communists to sort out this financial crisis? Because it isn't I'm afraid, and as such please cease to do so.
Regards,
Limetless
Limetless, where did you get the idea that that Aleksis fellow is a communist? As far as I've heard he's leftist, and you know the leftists of today can't hold a candle to those of yesyeryear. All I care is if he can really stick to his guns of refuting the awful austerity measures that those monster bankster whores are imposing on the poorer countries (and those not so poor too!) of Europe.
Neutron Man
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And to all those out there bitching about the poor slobs not carrying their weight (classic elitist money-bag zero sum game point if view), need I remind you of Argentina?, which defaulted on its massive 100+ billion dolalr debt and the world didn't come to an end, and today it is having a nice increase in economic activity. There's no cataclysm awaiting if Greece leaves the Euro, it will just be long overdue house cleaning and a good many (I hope) bankers going to jail where they belong, maybe to play with their corrupt cronies the politicians. One can only hope.
Neutron Man
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How is it, in any way, in any conceivable way, in any way that anyone has ever conceived, please explain how it is in any way that has ever been conceived ever in the history of the world a good idea to even think of voting for communists to sort out this financial crisis? Because it isn't I'm afraid, and as such please cease to do so.
Regards,
Limetless
Limetless, where did you get the idea that that Aleksis fellow is a communist? As far as I've heard he's leftist, and you know the leftists of today can't hold a candle to those of yesyeryear. All I care is if he can really stick to his guns of refuting the awful austerity measures that those monster bankster whores are imposing on the poorer countries (and those not so poor too!) of Europe.
Neutron Man
LOL read his history.
And he WONT save the Greeks by sticking to his guns, that is my point! He will, in no uncertain terms, sentence them to DOOM. The austerity measures aren't just to be cruel to Greece, they are what Greece needs to ensure it's survival lol. And if you mean "those monster bankster whores" as in Angela Murchal (can't remember how to spell her name lol) then you aren't really putting the blame in the right direction. The blame for this, like the blame was Labour's in the U.K and Bush's in the U.S, was the corrupt Greek shister politicians that didn't regulate the banks like they should have and in the case of Greece built a culture of corruption, kick-backs and tax-idiocy. That's what fucked Greece and now they have to pay the price.
This is all based on a very simple principle - If you borrow money you have to pay it back,
What happens when you take a loan from the bank and you don't pay it back? They send round bailiffs.
What happens when you take drugs on tick from your dealer and you don't pay them back? He kicks down your door and beats you black and blue so you pay them back. If you don't after then, rinse and repeat.
What happens if you don't pay your mortgage? Your home gets taken from you.
All of these situations are based on the same thing and I'm afraid that just because we are talking about a country and not an individual, business or something else doesn't make it any less true.
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And using Argentina as an example is pretty skewed dude, the Argies have suffered for decades.
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Yeah it was obvious that the dirty Reds would come out of the woodwork at some point, it's just ridiculous that people think it's a good idea to make the same mistake not once, not twice, not 5 times but whatever number of Communist/Socialist states there are out there implementing their misery to their people...and by people I mean slaves.
And yeah I agree, I do believe in some forms of welfare but certainly nothing like we have in the U.K. I don't make money to pay for people to do fuck all with their lives, I would however make money to help the sick, needy and others that genuinely are in need. Until that time though, I will be content to not help anyone and just go on well expensive holidays. :)
50p on the £1? Fuck right off.
It's not that their is an alternative in my opinion. You either ride the punches or there is doom and unless you are completely fucking stupid doom isn't something that people generally consider an option. It's like that Eddie Izzard sketch "Cake or Death?"...what the fuck you gunna pick lol? Problem is that the idiots in Greece clearly think that doom is a viable option.
And lol at that "Eating their rich" comment. Typical anti-wealth bullshit.
Well said Lim,
As you know I work in Hedge Funds and every day I try to help people keep Big Brother out of our clients' pockets. One rather poisonous bitch who went to University (the saggy beer bottle glasses wearing feminist type!) commented rather poisonously that I was helping people to perform tax evasion but I'm not so convinced we should regard the wealthy with such an "us and them" mindset. As a matter of fact we've had a lot of people from the Construction industry in particular winding up their small enterprises and sinking their savings into our bank!
And as I said these people we so demonise are the very people who can get us out of the slump; the people with the drive and motivation to make their ideas a reality. Rather than listlessly selling their labour from one job to the next they work together some capital and start their own business.
They take the risk the whole thing will go down the swanee and they'll lose their hard earned capital, they take the risk that one of their employees will decide she wants babies six months into her job and expect Maternity payment or that the employee they had to sack for being inept will sue them for thousands for unfair dismissal or that some clumsy hireling will trip and bang their knee and make a Personal Injury claim (Lord have Mercy!).
If you can run that gauntlet and still have some cash to show for it, frankly you deserve a medal, not for half of it to be whisked away from you.
Of course as you say we need to make provision for the sick and the elderly but is it too draconian to say for instance that you should wait until you can afford children to have them and that if you want to go to University you are going to have to borrow the money and not receive a tax free lump sum to slurp jelly shots of some tart's chest for three years of your life? :-D
V.
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And using Argentina as an example is pretty skewed dude, the Argies have suffered for decades.
Hehe, ALL Latin Americans have sufferd for decades (and the indigenous population for over five centuries) because of the greed and barbarity of the countries of the Great White (get it?) North, especially the US, but to a great extent the uber imperialist English and the insufferable French with their, for example, horrendous crushing of Haiti for centuries too.
But my point is you don't cure people by shoving arsenic down their throats when they've been poisoned by the naked greed of capitalist casino-playing speculators. Yes, the thing started in the US (what doesn't these years?) but don't let the big boys of Europe off the hook, and especially not the IMF and the other psycho-cartel, the World Bank. More brain disfunctions by the pound than anywhere else on earth.
NM
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Urgh...you mean the type that hand out leaflets and try and tell you about their latest cause? Gawwd yeah I know the type unfortunately, too jacked up on their own need to do good to see the real world.
What makes me laugh is that how quick people who go from being poor/averagely off and rich hating change their tune once they get a bit of cheddar in their fridge. I'm sorry but if everyone could stick their money into an offshore and not pay tax...everyone most certainly would. It's human nature to be greedy, no point denying that fact.
Finally, in the U.K the top 1% are the ones that pay 90% of the tax. They are the ones that create jobs and wealth so hating the rich is pretty fucking ungrateful if you ask me. They pay for the NHS which looks after you and your children when you are ill, yours and your children's education, the firemen that help you when ya house is on fire and then give ya a job on top and as you say Vlad, they are the ones that will get us out of the slump. I think sometimes people forget this.
Capitalism is like a kid, you have to nurture it and let it grow and develop but not be afraid to smack it's arse if it's rude to it's parent. Nuff said.
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Nad one last thing I'll write on this topic, and that is that run of teh mill communists and socialists as they have acted out since 1917 are a horrible tragedy, because they all got corrupted by power. When power corrupts you, that's it, you no longer place yourself in the other's shoe, you steal that shoe!
Any hierarchical power structure will usually degenerate into power keeping, and power increasing. That's the nature of the beast. I hate the state intruding into the affairs and pocketbook of ordinary Joes and Janes. Long live true freedom (good luck with that). But that doesn't mean that the state can't hold those that mess things up, and are to blame for great mischief and much worse, to account.
The ideal of course, and ideal things don't exist in this universe, would be for a dumb government, one that holds power but can't use it beliigerently or agaisnt the people, but only for true blind justice, without any overstepping of bounds.
"Honesty is the best politics" -- Stan Laurel
NM
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None of you understand, especially Limetless and Vlad1m1r you fascist bastards that we need to SPEND our way out of this recession. Communism is the ultimate solution, fuck where the money comes from, just print more, hey Greece should just print funny money (fake Euro's), then spend them!! Problem solved!! People rich again!!
Other potential solutions that would please Limetless and Vlad1m1r include taking all the people caught with kiddie porn and pedophiles in the world, and making them work in concentration camps for free to our economic benefit.
Another great solution I heard is that the Greek government should go round with a huge bag and collect all the Euro's in the whole country (many billions), definitely more than it's debt, and just give them all back to Germany, and then just say "Hey debt paid". Then make their own currency.... problem solved!!!
Obviously I'm not serious about any of these. I'm loving the fact that communists are taking over Greece though, loads of dirt cheap holidays until they get a serious government again here we come!!!
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None of you understand, especially Limetless and Vlad1m1r you fascist bastards that we need to SPEND our way out of this recession. Communism is the ultimate solution, fuck where the money comes from, just print more, hey Greece should just print funny money (fake Euro's), then spend them!! Problem solved!! People rich again!!
Other potential solutions that would please Limetless and Vlad1m1r include taking all the people caught with kiddie porn and pedophiles in the world, and making them work in concentration camps for free to our economic benefit.
Another great solution I heard is that the Greek government should go round with a huge bag and collect all the Euro's in the whole country (many billions), definitely more than it's debt, and just give them all back to Germany, and then just say "Hey debt paid". Then make their own currency.... problem solved!!!
Obviously I'm not serious about either of these.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA funniest post I've read all Sunday. Kudos. :P Also not a bad idea about the nonces, stick them on an island doing that we have the isolation plan sorted. :D
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None of you understand, especially Limetless and Vlad1m1r you fascist bastards that we need to SPEND our way out of this recession. Communism is the ultimate solution, fuck where the money comes from, just print more, hey Greece should just print funny money (fake Euro's), then spend them!! Problem solved!! People rich again!!
Other potential solutions that would please Limetless and Vlad1m1r include taking all the people caught with kiddie porn and pedophiles in the world, and making them work in concentration camps for free to our economic benefit.
Another great solution I heard is that the Greek government should go round with a huge bag and collect all the Euro's in the whole country (many billions), definitely more than it's debt, and just give them all back to Germany, and then just say "Hey debt paid". Then make their own currency.... problem solved!!!
Obviously I'm not serious about either of these.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA funniest post I've read all Sunday. Kudos. :P Also not a bad idea about the nonces, stick them on an island doing that we have the isolation plan sorted. :D
I'm just worried about the usefulness of pedo-labour, aren't they all flabby middle aged limp wristed types?
Harvest their organs and sell them to developed nations to help sick adults and children instead I say. They spend so much time trying to stick their organs inside kids anyway that they'll be in no position to complain! :-D
V.
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Yeah limitless.
the golden age of greece was a long..long time ago. weathered away by political corruption and following suite with capitalism to a flaw. following the loan debts and goldman sachs short selling them and making them LOSE MONEY ON BORROWED MONEY...well, its no suprise that their democratic voting is just as fucked..the people are battered..its dark times.
its sad really...a country which offered so much to the world, math, literature, science, philosophy...has been void of anything but a shadow of its former self.
i for one know one thing.... THEY WOOPED RUSSIA'S ASS IN THE EURO-CUP
what a fucking match, their defense was remarkable.
what touched me was the players after the match said they are doing this for the country..in such dark times..to lighten their life temporary and make them feel good is what really matters. dark times indeed for greece
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Yeah of course it's a shame. The thing is the Greeks are a great people, I have a few Greek friends myself and they are great and I have been to Greece many a time and the people there are warm and welcoming to a fault. The problem is that their leaders have allowed a culture of corruption and greed that's just fucked them all over in return. Not much else you can say about it really. :-\
But yeah they KILLED Russia in that game. It also says something about the Greek psyche in general that their players said that, shows grit and that Greeks are in general good people.
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Well, it just goes to show (I'm talking about trhe result of teh Greek election) the power of persuasion. Given enough propaganda (in a similar vein to Wisconsin) and enough money from the likes of the western powers that be, you can convince people of going against their own best interests.
All this was of course manufactured in Madison Ave. many decades ago. Edward Bernais lives.
goblin
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Marx point was that communism was something that had to arise naturally, it had to evolve by itself. It couldn't be forced upon the people.
Idealists don't take one thing into account... we're primates. Shit will never be perfect.
Btw Lim/vlad, I don't know shit about economics but have been trying to understand why these countries are in the shit, could you sum up in laymens terms why this shit is going down and what the source of the problem is in the first place?
On the tax issue.. I'm all for having the NHS/police/public services, but 50 fucking % on high earners? No fucking way. It's no wonder people launder money offshore
And I hate this resent for the rich. Sure, you can get a shitty roll of the dice in this world, and end up in a fucked up situation just by bad luck. But what's the point in hating some guy that got a good roll of the dice, and worked his way to wealth?
Do these people seriously think they wouldn't have done the same, if they were in that situation. Of course they fucking would, as would 99.9% of people.
You offer one of these people a million euros and I know for a fact they'd take it and start living it up
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Marx point was that communism was something that had to arise naturally, it had to evolve by itself. It couldn't be forced upon the people.
Idealists don't take one thing into account... we're primates. Shit will never be perfect.
Btw Lim, I don't know shit about economics but have been trying to understand why these countries are in the shit, could you sum up in laymens terms why this shit is going down and what the source of the problem is in the first place?
Do you mean in Greece?
Part of the problem was caused by rampant tax evasion. I remember being on holiday and asking a Doctor if he took credit cards only to be laughed at in the face - cash only.
For reasons not immediately clear to me, after Greece joined the Euro it began to live beyond its means to a whole new level. Public sector wages and benefits skyrocketed and rather than cut spending they actually increased it by borrowing large amounts of money from the IMF.
The widening gap between their increased expenditure and reduced income (known as a "deficit" in the trade) wasn't exactly helped by the SubPrime crisis.
This then left them in a position of having to repay debts with smaller and smaller sums of revenue - hence the desperate attempts of the government to put the toothpaste back in the tube by scaling back public spending, reducing the pay of public sector workers, lowering the minimum wage and so on.
Why are Lim and I all for it? Simply because the alternative i.e defaulting on the loan is too horrific to contemplate - no respectable bank will grant credit to the government and its citizens and therefore any attempts to stimulate the economy is unlikely to succeed. Needless to say spiralling unemployment won't help the situation either with no consumers to buy products/services within the country.
The solution in my humble opinion is to focus on the fact that they're in a recession and that the recovery package Greece has agreed is contingent on the austerity measures already implemented (and a few more besides which we won't list here!)
V.
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Marx point was that communism was something that had to arise naturally, it had to evolve by itself. It couldn't be forced upon the people.
Idealists don't take one thing into account... we're primates. Shit will never be perfect.
Btw Lim, I don't know shit about economics but have been trying to understand why these countries are in the shit, could you sum up in laymens terms why this shit is going down and what the source of the problem is in the first place?
Do you mean in Greece?
Part of the problem was caused by rampant tax evasion. I remember being on holiday and asking a Doctor if he took credit cards only to be laughed at in the face - cash only.
For reasons not immediately clear to me, after Greece joined the Euro it began to live beyond its means to a whole new level. Public sector wages and benefits skyrocketed and rather than cut spending they actually increased it by borrowing large amounts of money from the IMF.
The widening gap between their increased expenditure and reduced income (known as a "deficit" in the trade) wasn't exactly helped by the SubPrime crisis.
This then left them in a position of having to repay debts with smaller and smaller sums of revenue - hence the desperate attempts of the government to put the toothpaste back in the tube by scaling back public spending, reducing the pay of public sector workers, lowering the minimum wage and so on.
Why are Lim and I all for it? Simply because the alternative i.e defaulting on the loan is too horrific to contemplate - no respectable bank will grant credit to the government and its citizens and therefore any attempts to stimulate the economy is unlikely to succeed. Needless to say spiralling unemployment won't help the situation either with no consumers to buy products/services within the country.
The solution in my humble opinion is to focus on the fact that they're in a recession and that the recovery package Greece has agreed is contingent on the austerity measures already implemented (and a few more besides which we won't list here!)
V.
What would you say to the idea that if Greece left the euro, after a brief period of difficulty, tourism would increase, investment as well as innovation would increase as people made products in order to beat expensive imports etc in order to start on a slow road to recovery, yet if they stay in the euro, there will only be more bailouts (Spain/Italy/Ireland etc) and ultimately this will lead to exhausting the monetary supply of Europe as well as causing a continent wide financial crisis?
I'm not educated enough to have an informed view on this, I'm just wondering what your take is on that
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Marx point was that communism was something that had to arise naturally, it had to evolve by itself. It couldn't be forced upon the people.
Idealists don't take one thing into account... we're primates. Shit will never be perfect.
Btw Lim, I don't know shit about economics but have been trying to understand why these countries are in the shit, could you sum up in laymens terms why this shit is going down and what the source of the problem is in the first place?
Do you mean in Greece?
Part of the problem was caused by rampant tax evasion. I remember being on holiday and asking a Doctor if he took credit cards only to be laughed at in the face - cash only.
For reasons not immediately clear to me, after Greece joined the Euro it began to live beyond its means to a whole new level. Public sector wages and benefits skyrocketed and rather than cut spending they actually increased it by borrowing large amounts of money from the IMF.
The widening gap between their increased expenditure and reduced income (known as a "deficit" in the trade) wasn't exactly helped by the SubPrime crisis.
This then left them in a position of having to repay debts with smaller and smaller sums of revenue - hence the desperate attempts of the government to put the toothpaste back in the tube by scaling back public spending, reducing the pay of public sector workers, lowering the minimum wage and so on.
Why are Lim and I all for it? Simply because the alternative i.e defaulting on the loan is too horrific to contemplate - no respectable bank will grant credit to the government and its citizens and therefore any attempts to stimulate the economy is unlikely to succeed. Needless to say spiralling unemployment won't help the situation either with no consumers to buy products/services within the country.
The solution in my humble opinion is to focus on the fact that they're in a recession and that the recovery package Greece has agreed is contingent on the austerity measures already implemented (and a few more besides which we won't list here!)
V.
What would you say to the idea that if Greece left the euro, after a brief period of difficulty, tourism would increase, investment as well as innovation would increase as people made products in order to beat expensive imports etc in order to start on a slow road to recovery, yet if they stay in the euro, there will only be more bailouts (Spain/Italy/Ireland etc) and ultimately this will lead to exhausting the monetary supply of Europe as well as causing a continent wide financial crisis?
I'm not educated enough to have an informed view on this, I'm just wondering what your take is on that
See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9334125/What-would-happen-to-Greece-if-it-left-the-euro.html
V.
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What would you say to the idea that if Greece left the euro, after a brief period of difficulty, tourism would increase, investment as well as innovation would increase as people made products in order to beat expensive imports etc in order to start on a slow road to recovery, yet if they stay in the euro, there will only be more bailouts (Spain/Italy/Ireland etc) and ultimately this will lead to exhausting the monetary supply of Europe as well as causing a continent wide financial crisis?
In all seriousness that's the core issue "a brief period of difficulty".
Argentina is still suffering decades later, it isn't a 'brief period'. Greece would have no money, little income in the form of tax, no more instant cash from other EU countries including Germany, they would have nothing to kick start growth. The period of deflation could be 40 years or more (look at Japan, that's not unrealistic). It's not like they've got huge amount of natural resources they could sell or license off and tourism is worth relatively little to such a large country with large population.
People talk about them being able to devalue their new currency if they left the Euro, but devalue it to do what? Sell more Greek Yoghurt? It's going to take decades and century's for them to build up either a new manufacturing base, or perhaps quicker for them might be to build a technology base, but in that respect their whole language works against them.
My own opinion is that we need a federal states of Europe whereby the poorer states get permanent yearly funding from the wealthier states like as happens in America. It's ridiculous that the French get a farming subsidy from the EU when the Greeks are in the situation they are in.
Personally I love the idea of a United States of Europe, we'd have the largest Army / Navy / Airforce in the world, we'd have the most diplomatic clout in the world, be one of the largest if not the largest country in the world, be the wealthiest country in the world, the Euro would almost inevitably become the world's reserve currency eventually, we'd have huge amounts of nautral resources, an incredibly well educated and innovate population etc etc. I think other powerful countries have a vested interest in us not uniting.
It's time to choose, all or nothing.
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What would you say to the idea that if Greece left the euro, after a brief period of difficulty, tourism would increase, investment as well as innovation would increase as people made products in order to beat expensive imports etc in order to start on a slow road to recovery, yet if they stay in the euro, there will only be more bailouts (Spain/Italy/Ireland etc) and ultimately this will lead to exhausting the monetary supply of Europe as well as causing a continent wide financial crisis?
In all seriousness that's the core issue "a brief period of difficulty".
Argentina is still suffering decades later, it isn't a 'brief period'. Greece would have no money, little income in the form of tax, no more instant cash from other EU countries including Germany, they would have nothing to kick start growth. The period of deflation could be 40 years or more (look at Japan, that's not unrealistic). It's not like they've got huge amount of natural resources they could sell or license off and tourism is worth relatively little to such a large country with large population.
People talk about them being able to devalue their new currency if they left the Euro, but devalue it to do what? Sell more Greek Yoghurt? It's going to take decades and century's for them to build up either a new manufacturing base, or perhaps quicker for them might be to build a technology base, but in that respect their whole language works against them.
My own opinion is that we need a federal states of Europe whereby the poorer states get permanent yearly funding from the wealthier states like as happens in America. It's ridiculous that the French get a farming subsidy from the EU when the Greeks are in the situation they are in.
Personally I love the idea of a United States of Europe, we'd have the largest Army / Navy / Airforce in the world, we'd have the most diplomatic clout in the world, be one of the largest if not the largest country in the world, be the wealthiest country in the world, the Euro would almost inevitably become the world's reserve currency eventually, we'd have huge amounts of nautral resources, an incredibly well educated and innovate population etc etc. I think other powerful countries have a vested interest in us not uniting.
It's time to choose, all or nothing.
It's a nice idea as I think at the moment we have all the downsides of a Federal Superstate without any of the advantages - richer countries like Germany, the UK and France are already propping up the teetering economies of Ireland, Spain and Greece but cannot legislate against exactly what has happened just now in Greece - a shift in the balance of power which puts the future of any recovery package in doubt.
What then is the solution? I don't claim to be an expert but if we did have a European government with the balls to get Greece to toe the party line I would suggest focusing on credit easing whereby the money supply is increased but instead of being used to buy up so-called government bonds (i.e "Print More Money!" it's used to buy corporate bands, securities (especially mortgage securities) and so on - I think this would be more likely to get Greece out of the mire by encouraging loans to small businesses but I should say a) I'm not an Economist and b) The latest package from the EMF does contain a component of credit easing apparently so it seems someone else thought of this first!
V.
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I don't know about a US of E.. It seems too open to abuse. Our own sovereignty is a safer bet. We already give the EU too much power over us (and the ultimate arbiters aren't even elected officials).. too many of our laws are already outside of our own control.
Plus if the euro falls, then all of europe falls. We should just remain sovereign and have free and open trade but signing over the whole country seems a bit too extreme.
It will eventually happen though. As we begin to colonise space at least, countries will become more and more meaningless until eventually we unite as "the human empire" or something like that. Sounds like its out of a film but I think that'll be the natural evolution of it
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I don't know about a US of E.. It seems too open to abuse. Our own sovereignty is a safer bet. We already give the EU too much power over us (and the ultimate arbiters aren't even elected officials).. too many of our laws are already outside of our own control.
Plus if the euro falls, then all of europe falls. We should just remain sovereign and have free and open trade but signing over the whole country seems a bit too extreme.
It will eventually happen though. As we begin to colonise space at least, countries will become more and more meaningless until eventually we unite as "the human empire" or something like that. Sounds like its out of a film but I think that'll be the natural evolution of it
Like in that episode of Star Trek where Mr. Spock has a Goatee and everyone goes around saluting one another Hitler style? I'm game :)
V.
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And so it begins, Germany starts to drown under the weight of the entire Eurozone holding onto it's feet...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fcde12c6-ba35-11e1-aa8d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1yHE9Yhhk
for those who don't have a Financial Times subscription:
https://anonfiles.com/file/a7a3c07462b48b4b48f2030eba5fb2ed
8)
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Ok basically I will sum up why the euro crisis is going on but there are some fundamental truths that you HAVE TO ACCEPT when you think about this. Economics is actually quite a difficult subject and a lot of the time you either get it or you don't. It's like business, you either get it or you don't and to teach it is extremely difficult.
Truth 1. Value is completely subjective and it is applied to anything by humans. By that alone value is distorted and fallible.
Truth 2. The problem with humans is that they are extremely susceptible to pack mentality. This is the major reason the true value (if such a thing exists) is often distorted by speculation.
Truth 3. When the value of something is distorted to the point where it cannot be traded with liquid fluidity it will lose value and/or become worthless. This is how economic bubbles work.
Truth 4. Debt that cannot be repaid or is worthless. If the amount of worthless debt overtakes positive debt (debt that can be repaid) then becomes widespread the damage has a cannon effect.
Now the reason why the euro crisis exists is because the faults in the system that caused the crash in the 80s was not resolved. There was actually a sub-prime crisis before and it took down one firm that dealt with them exclusively when they were rare back in the day. This was relatively minor and people thought that they could re-do it and make the sub-prime bonds work. They did do this for a while but then the market got so convoluted because everyone went in on it and the bonds that were being traded were being falsely approved by the rating agencies which meant that everyone thought they were buying positive debt when actually it was worthless. People started to see this as a huge market thus a bubble was created on the sub-prime bond market which, when people realized the debt in the sub-prime bonds were worthless they were devalued overnight (the bubble burst). Countries that were effected the most were the ones that had the most debt in proportion with their GDP.
When this happened governments basically went one of two ways. A) Implement austerity measures (reducing the state, reducing spending, making people work longer, raising tax etc) which is the correct thing or B) Borrow more to try and spend your way out of the being in the red because the profit supposedly makes up the difference. Option B is the dumb-ass method because you are basically trying to solve debt by getting into debt and whilst it can work occasionally with businesses it never works with countries. Countries like the U.K, the U.S, Germany, France etc chose to do this immediately or almost immediately however countries like Spain, Greece and Italy (although I think Italy flipped rapidly on this) either ignored it or tried to spend their way out of it. Ignoring it has just compounded the problem because now Spain and Greece have even more debt to deal with than they would have had if they had stopped implemented austerity measures straight away. Given that they have even more bad debt their economy has lost value to the point in Greece where they are pretty much bankrupt and they are now exasperating this because if they choose to default on their debt and go back to the Drachma there will be no confidence in them and thus their economy will be worth nothing.
This is just a nutshell perspective, it's a lot more complex than this but I can't really be arsed to explain properly how a sub-prime bond works because it's long and it's a bit of a concept and not just something that exists.
I hope this helps.
Lim
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Oh and fuck the idea of a USE....that would be baaaaad times.
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Ok basically I will sum up why the euro crisis is going on but there are some fundamental truths that you HAVE TO ACCEPT when you think about this. Economics is actually quite a difficult subject and a lot of the time you either get it or you don't. It's like business, you either get it or you don't and to teach it is extremely difficult.
Truth 1. Value is completely subjective and it is applied to anything by humans. By that alone value is distorted and fallible.
Truth 2. The problem with humans is that they are extremely susceptible to pack mentality. This is the major reason the true value (if such a thing exists) is often distorted by speculation.
Truth 3. When the value of something is distorted to the point where it cannot be traded with liquid fluidity it will lose value and/or become worthless. This is how economic bubbles work.
Truth 4. Debt that cannot be repaid or is worthless. If the amount of worthless debt overtakes positive debt (debt that can be repaid) then becomes widespread the damage has a cannon effect.
Now the reason why the euro crisis exists is because the faults in the system that caused the crash in the 80s was not resolved. There was actually a sub-prime crisis before and it took down one firm that dealt with them exclusively when they were rare back in the day. This was relatively minor and people thought that they could re-do it and make the sub-prime bonds work. They did do this for a while but then the market got so convoluted because everyone went in on it and the bonds that were being traded were being falsely approved by the rating agencies which meant that everyone thought they were buying positive debt when actually it was worthless. People started to see this as a huge market thus a bubble was created on the sub-prime bond market which, when people realized the debt in the sub-prime bonds were worthless they were devalued overnight (the bubble burst). Countries that were effected the most were the ones that had the most debt in proportion with their GDP.
When this happened governments basically went one of two ways. A) Implement austerity measures (reducing the state, reducing spending, making people work longer, raising tax etc) which is the correct thing or B) Borrow more to try and spend your way out of the being in the red because the profit supposedly makes up the difference. Option B is the dumb-ass method because you are basically trying to solve debt by getting into debt and whilst it can work occasionally with businesses it never works with countries. Countries like the U.K, the U.S, Germany, France etc chose to do this immediately or almost immediately however countries like Spain, Greece and Italy (although I think Italy flipped rapidly on this) either ignored it or tried to spend their way out of it. Ignoring it has just compounded the problem because now Spain and Greece have even more debt to deal with than they would have had if they had stopped implemented austerity measures straight away. Given that they have even more bad debt their economy has lost value to the point in Greece where they are pretty much bankrupt and they are now exasperating this because if they choose to default on their debt and go back to the Drachma there will be no confidence in them and thus their economy will be worth nothing.
This is just a nutshell perspective, it's a lot more complex than this but I can't really be arsed to explain properly how a sub-prime bond works because it's long and it's a bit of a concept and not just something that exists.
I hope this helps.
Lim
An excellent and cogent analysis, thanks Lim.
Of course some of the naysayers made similar observations about the Bitcoin economy - which heavily hinges on Truth # 1 i.e there will always be a demand for fast, anonymous transfers of money.
I have been receiving weekly newsletters from an organisation keen to implement a Single Global Currency - they think (rather naively) that this would rid us all of inflation - I don't see this as a foregone conclusion although naturally interest rates would be much easier to control. They also think it would protect countries from leveraging of other currencies without understanding the positive role this can play in an economy.
I did see an old gent reading "The Sun" on the weekend where it said "Greece Exit Euro" in screaming headlines. Seems they were only talking about football, but give it time... :-)
V.
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Thanks, it's actually a LOT more complex than what I just said but to explain it all would literally take days.
I think people don't realise that the world economy is in essence just a massive flow of debt from on individual/organisation to another. Money isn't actually real, it's just a human concept that was created because like it or not, it's the most efficient method of the transferal of goods from one party to another. For those that haven't considered this before just take a minute and consider for a minute what money actually means. The answer is absolutely nothing physically, it's just a small piece of metal or a bit of paper or a piece of plastic and if you want to get really abstract, some numbers on a screen. What money ACTUALLY represents is debt. You are giving someone a piece of debt to pay for something. That's it.
For all the Brits (dunno about U.S currency) get out any paper note and you will see that it says "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of xyz pounds". But what is a pound? It used to represent gold but since the amount of money in the world clearly is greater than the amount of gold in the world it's actually completely meaningless. What you are ACTUALLY holding is a promise and you are using those promises to pay for things which people have bought with promises to sell on. What that money represents is a bond of trust. Take a wander down to the Bank of England and see what they say when you ask to trade in your paper.
As I said above, value is not real, it's a completely abstract and subjective concept created by man. If it wasn't why would a conflict diamond worth £2000 in the U.K be worth a few dollars to the African that is forced to dig it up? Or instead why would it be worth say 10 AK-47s with x amount of rounds to their leader? It isn't really, it's just a bit of pressurized carbon but the value is just something we decide to add ourselves and then we alter it to suit our own needs.
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I know I might be in a small category with my opinion but I'll throw it out there anyway. I am currently reading a book about revolutions since 1776 forward. It doesn't include all revolutions but 6-7 of the majors. One thing that is obvious to me throughout is the position of the banks when change happens. Central banks in particular are extremely destructive to society and economies. Giving a small group of people the power to coin and distribute money allows them to control every aspect of that nation. 'Democracy' as a cornerstone of any nation is a washout. Democracy works best in small communities because of its propensity to be corrupted. I recommend a film called, "Life+Debt". It is about how Jamaica was reduced to a third world country by the IMF who usurped their trade agreements and gained control of their economy by importing foreign goods far below the local costs. This drove the locals out of business until all that was left was the foreign market.
How does that apply to Greece? Greece is another example of the central banking control of fiat currencies that are manipulated at will without any relationship to productivity, commodities, or the job market. Look at Italy. They dissolved their government and replaced it with 'economists and ex-central bankers' that never represent the people they rule over. No country, government, or president is in control when the central bankers/Federal Reserve are the creators of currency. I wonder how it is that all of the ancient empires now find themselves bankrupt and insolvent? Spain, Greece, Egypt, Italy.
Some awesome hardcore political tunes I listen to sometimes, Diabolic, Immortal Technique, Dead Prez. Kick it real. Just sayin......
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You may be right, however it is the only system that works and nothing will ever change that, or I highly doubt it will. Human society demands structure like this, it is just in our nature. We can't function as a society without these sorts of things and they don't have to come in the form of a central bank, we just need something to ensure the hierarchy. All the idealism in the world wont change this.
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I know I might be in a small category with my opinion but I'll throw it out there anyway. I am currently reading a book about revolutions since 1776 forward. It doesn't include all revolutions but 6-7 of the majors. One thing that is obvious to me throughout is the position of the banks when change happens. Central banks in particular are extremely destructive to society and economies. Giving a small group of people the power to coin and distribute money allows them to control every aspect of that nation. 'Democracy' as a cornerstone of any nation is a washout. Democracy works best in small communities because of its propensity to be corrupted. I recommend a film called, "Life+Debt". It is about how Jamaica was reduced to a third world country by the IMF who usurped their trade agreements and gained control of their economy by importing foreign goods far below the local costs. This drove the locals out of business until all that was left was the foreign market.
How does that apply to Greece? Greece is another example of the central banking control of fiat currencies that are manipulated at will without any relationship to productivity, commodities, or the job market. Look at Italy. They dissolved their government and replaced it with 'economists and ex-central bankers' that never represent the people they rule over. No country, government, or president is in control when the central bankers/Federal Reserve are the creators of currency. I wonder how it is that all of the ancient empires now find themselves bankrupt and insolvent? Spain, Greece, Egypt, Italy.
Some awesome hardcore political tunes I listen to sometimes, Diabolic, Immortal Technique, Dead Prez. Kick it real. Just sayin......
Hi EOTS,
Some very interesting thoughts, many thanks!
I agree that Greece's decision to throw the lot in with the Euro wasn't the wisest decision they made but they were brought down not due to a deficit between productivity, commodities and the job market but by rampant tax evasion and brazen wastage of public finances - this was the case when Greeks controlled their own economy and was also largely the case when the ECB took the reins.
I take your point viz. Jamaica - some countries employ a practice known as protectionism to avoid the scenario you describe by taxing foreign imports. This often has negative effects on the economy as the price of local commodities increase accordingly. In certain cases as happened with oila and wheat in the US, the government were even artificially supporting the industry by buying them at elevated prices. The acronym WTF was never more appropriate than in this case.
Incidentally some wily individuals have taken advantage of situations like these in the past by for example passing off cheap foreign oil as domestic oil and selling it at the local price - this is known as "Arbitrage" and is a very common practice in my line of work (I only wish I knew how to do it myself!)
In times like these it is inevitable that some people will start to question whether it's right that the economy is so slated against the least productive members of society but I put it to you that we have seen the alternatives where governments have tried to place ownership of industry in the hands of the workers - cue mass starvation due to inept management of state farms, years long waiting lists for cars, shops regularly not stocking basic foodstuffs like fruit.
To say that a given central bank is responsible for the misery caused by a poor economy is a little like saying mass starvation is caused by a lack of food - it's what's called a proximate cause i.e it doesn't tell you anything as to WHY there's no food. The answer in this case is piss poor management of the economy by a government trying to live well beyond its means. There only hope lies in implementing the austerity measures necessary for them to receive continued support from the ECB and knuckle down for the cold, dark night ahead!
V.
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Yes I do watch it from time to time mate but I'm afraid that it's not quite as informative as you think. The Kaiser Report gives you fact, yes, that much is true but it doesn't really explain WHY the facts are facts if you get me. Yeah it is informative to an extent but it's like looking at a painting but not being able to see the individual colours that make up that painting. Without sounding condescending it's actually extremely difficult to explain to the layman without it becoming convoluted with economic-jargon. It's the same as a chemist sphere of knowledge or someone in I.T. Without going into too much detail I know people that work/have worked in investment banks and what you think you see barely scratches the surface. I's not just the finance industry it's actually also the culture itself which is often far more difficult to get your head around. The reason why it is fundamentally is because the finance industry is basically made of two completely opposing ideas, 1 the laws of mathematics which are absolute and value which is entirely subjective and one tries to govern the other at the same time.
And that was a little before my time mate but the tables were never turned. This is how it has always been however we are now made more aware of it by mass-media and a shift in culture but as I said, the Keiser report whilst informative really only scratches the surface because it only really discusses the wealth side of the finance industry rather than it's power. They aren't called the Masters of the Universe for no reason lol. ;)
Oh and Max is American mate. :P
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Thanks Limetless and vlad1m1r.
First I agree with your 4 points. I would like to add to your explanation of those points that when we actually had a real free market the 'value' helped to protect the producers. Value is indeed subjective in certain aspects, but the control of value by a small group can lead to widespread problems. People today don't even understand the definition of 'value' let alone understand the money system. You mentioned 2 choices by governments: 1)austerity, 2) borrowing. We are talking about a 'trickle down system' which is directly related to the setting of values. In your first choice 'austerity' comes from the downsizing of government and their agencies which can be beneficial to a degree. Please stay with me to the end and I'll tie these all together. Pieces of the austerity package only work in a functioning economy. The 'taxation and working more hours' only works when you have a job sector that is fully operational. In America we went through over a decade of losing 3-400,000 jobs a month. Those people for the most part are still among the ranks of the unemployed. Some of that can be credited to the changing face of the job market but for the most part they are jobs that just ceased to exist. Those people can't work more hours and they aren't paying taxes. Both of these will have short and long term consequences. In the short it has to do with cut-backs, reallocating resources, self-preservation. The long term affects are the ability to count their wages as taxable, the amount of money going into the social security system comes to a screeching halt, and that 'reduced spending' towards that single social program creates an incredible chasm....which has to be filled up with money or allowed to die, along with its dependents.
That brings us to your second option. I don't want to sound like I blame everything on central banking so don't think I'm a Ron Paul supporter. I despise every single candidate because, to me, they represent an irreparably broken system. Now going back to 'austerity', it requires downsizing and cut backs that can be sustained over a period of time that will change the flow of debt. 'Borrowing' is never in the interests of a government because their liabilities are exceeding their assets or productivity. When a nation's debt exceeded its tax base it becomes exponentially more difficult to maintain the programs and operations. Therefore it is in the interests of the people that control the issuance of fiat currencies, that are not tied to any commodity, product, or resource, to issue debt based on projected returns. Those 'projected returns' are real assets and tangible objects, not valueless pieces of paper. This type of 'fiat currency system' with all of the numbers, stamps and faces got its start in China in the 11th century with the Yuan Dynasty. Coincidental that their current currency is named such? In truths #3&4 you talk about the loss of ability to use this system where paper loses its value and the collapse that ensues. You are spot on. Those are the lessons of ancient China that our economists should be studying now. Better yet the people should be studying because the same things will happen to us that happened to them. Remember it was Einstein that said, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". Austerity can never work long term when one of the factors demand an ever-increasing source of expansion in the form of 'government debt'.
We have to look at the world we live in. America spent decades in South America destabilizing governments, setting up industries, and harvesting resources. They perfected the sciences of quelling dissent, establishing workable control mechanisms over the entire population, and propping up puppet governments. Greg Grandin wrote a good book called, 'Empire's Workshop: Latin America, the United States, and the Rise of the New Imperialism', which lays out part of the how. There is also a book by Gerald Colby called, 'Thy Will Be Done: The Conquest of the Amazon : Nelson Rockefeller and Evangelism in the Age of Oil', a lot of useful information on how America help to design the workforce we now see throughout the world. An entire class of slave labor that works for notning more than 'company script'. I don't know if you're familiar with the history of Ludlow, Colorado but I am. I've been there and stood where Americans died, murdered by company hired 'cops' that represented the coal mining industry. History is littered with stories of how governments usurped power and used it against their own people. Most of those instances were based on the inequality and imbalances of the haves and the have-nots. Fast forward. Today we call the people around the world that oppose this 'movement', terrorists. The governments claim that the terrorists' are religious extremists bent on converting all of humanity to their 'religion'. I won't even get into my opinion of religion. Those people could care less about religion. They are opposed to and dying for their attempt to be independent from the 'movement'. They have profiled these people into being terrorists when they are only trying to disassociate themselves with the corrupt system that is destroying their lives. THAT is what they have redefined terrorism as. Opposition to the established framework or governance.
I respect both of your opinions and input and I can appreciate that vlad is a 'stock broker'. I acknowledge you both have more experience in your fields than I do. Not sure what you do Limetless but it sounds like you are into banking in some form. To close things out I want to make one final assertion. Having understood America's ability to create a blueprint for undermining political systems and harness resources and job markets it actually mostly unnecessary to launch full frontal military assaults of 'rogue state'. As witnessed with the current situation with Iran we see economic sanctions have the ability to throttle nations. America practiced that operation hundreds of times in South America. So much so that by now 'war' should be nothing more than a violent option. So if they possess the ability to bring a nation to its knees through economic controls why are we spending more on military budgets than most of the countries on earth's GDP's? America spends hundreds of billions of dollars on a war OF terrorism trying to squash dissent and overpower those that would attempt to threaten its existence. You can change the name of the country but the end result is always the same, eventually.
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Hmm I agree with you to an extent but I think that the whole trickle-down observation is overdone. Human society is a trickle down system and it always has been and always will be and that doesn't change no matter what system is in place. I guess I am just a realist about these things.
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Limetless,
I'm not talking about change. I was merely making an observation that differs from the common perception. I have resigned myself to believing that people in general are so fucking stupid that if they were thirsty and you led them to a pool of water they would die of thirst. People get what they tolerate. I pretty much have a FTW attitude any more. Doesn't pay to think otherwise.
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Limetless,
I'm not talking about change. I was merely making an observation that differs from the common perception. I have resigned myself to believing that people in general are so fucking stupid that if they were thirsty and you led them to a pool of water they would die of thirst. People get what they tolerate. I pretty much have a FTW attitude any more. Doesn't pay to think otherwise.
I think you would enjoy reading "The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists" - PM me your e-mail I'll send you a copy!
V.
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Limetless,
I'm not talking about change. I was merely making an observation that differs from the common perception. I have resigned myself to believing that people in general are so fucking stupid that if they were thirsty and you led them to a pool of water they would die of thirst. People get what they tolerate. I pretty much have a FTW attitude any more. Doesn't pay to think otherwise.
Hi Enemy,
I just wanted the chance to mull over what you've said and go into it in more depth than I did earlier today where I recommended a book(!)
First off, these kind of questions have plagued mankind probably since we first started moving on from living only family groups and settled into communities. It's significant to me that economies seem to have fallen into one of the two camps we've described below and it leads me to believe that before we can have a socialist model where the state has a monopoly on all capital without greedy banks fixing interest rates when loaning to one another as has happened here in the UK for instance.
Firstly though as you said yourself this would not prevent one country from devastating the economy of another as the EU and USA have been able to do to Iran - have to say I'm actually all for this as it allows us to effect regime change without an all out war. As a country makes moves towards democracy as is the case in Burma for example (I refuse to call it Myanmar!) then such sanctions can be eased or repealed altogether.
My suspicion is that if we did move to a resource based economy, it would be at the expense of other nations - I too have read about the US's shameless exploitation of Latin America. Perhaps the most shocking example for me was revealed when reading a newsletter from my bank about America's economic "hitmen" who brought down a Presidential regime in Peru simply so they could regulate the prices of their copper exports...!
The same Hitman said that Hugo Chavez had failed to play ball with them as being a Socialist he wanted his government to own utilities providing power and water to the people which he could subsidise from public funds as opposed to allowing private companies with American owners to come in and charge Venezuelans through the nose for their right to drink water and stay warm.
Having said this, I don't think it would be true to say that the average Venezuelan enjoys a standard of living or political freedom on par with an American or European! Perhaps our freedom as wage slaves is a little overstated but every time historically we have tried to remove private enterprise from the equation we have seen widespread oppression and suffering.
So, this really comes down to the question - is it worth it? For instance there was very little unemployment in the former East German Republic but your wages were largely nominal. The products made available by the state were substandard and took months on end to be produced. We've already discussed for instance how many basic foodstuffs were not available in the shops - the lack of incentive to improve products due to competition was removed and as we saw the country stagnated. Of course if you or I had lived there and mentioned this openly we would have been imprisoned for treason against the state but we would still have a job (albeit one which the government have chosen for you).
I admire the ideals of Socialism but I see it these days as an answer begging for a question -we're aware of the deficiencies in our own (capitalist) society and we certainly need greater regulation of our financial system and have taken steps towards this. I'm just not sure we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater and conclude that the system is inherently flawed, particularly as it's clearly the one which appeals most to human nature!
V.
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Vlad,
I'm taking that the two camps are socialistic and capitalistic. I have a problem with defining governments in such finite terms. The endless possibilities on the scale blur the end results. What we need to pay attention to is economic manipulation for the goal of dominating foreign nations. That transcends governments and is more within the gravitational orbit of financial institutions. You are spot on in 'effecting regime change' by using sanctions rather than war but step back a second and examine that statement. IF economic sanctions are utilized to effect regime change then what are the economic policies that are currently playing intended to bring about? because they are certainly not applied to institute financial stability. I don't have degree in economics or even accounting but I'm intelligent enough to see that the current system and policies are meant to erode and diminish 'value' and wealth in the hands of those that are incapable of effecting change to begin with.
I used Iran as an example because it typifies the blueprint we see used repeatedly. Iran poses no threat to anyone's existence. They are no more on a road to being a global threat than Easter Island. In the case of resources there has to be an 'in road' to gaining control over the resource and production of it. It is through the monopolization of both resources and governance that oppression and tyranny begin. It is the 'economic hitmen's' job to set the stage for the transition. First use 'diplomacy' and fear. Then use coercion. More fear with violence. Lastly violence unhindered. Americans would have openly opposed such actions if they were aware of them and viewing them firsthand. Since most of these principles were developed in Latin and South America over the last century it was easy to say, 'Let them fend for themselves' if the news even reached our shores.
I'm not proposing change or suggesting we eliminate anything. I am merely putting into words the parameters of the 'beast' that we see. People have an inherent tendency to seek the safety and community of the herd even when it is evident that such actions are detrimental to growth and health. If I was a parent telling you that you are free to do as you like but then restrict your choices to the ones I like and agree with, do you really have freedom at all? Is your 'freedom' limited to the expressions that are beneficial to me or is there more to freedom? So it is in the world we live in. How can we have an 'acceptable level of freedom' when we are being limited to what is beneficial to those that control the mechanisms of power? This situation exists in every country, in every economy that allows uninterested 'citizens' to apathetically determine the welfare of the whole....and that is not a republic or democracy. Perhaps it is capitalism in one of its forms since the ones that hold 'capital' are the ones exerting the most influence. I say that not openly criticizing capitalism any more than socialism and its hindrances.
Again, human nature tends to seek that which it finds most comfortable and acceptable regardless of its benefits or consequences. Most people are nurtured into being consumerists devoid of practicality and necessity. If we were instilled with those qualities we might see a different society emerge. It might more closely approximate the civilizations of the early Indians, Africans, or other societies that developed in a more relaxed atmosphere that used common sense and a bit of egalitarianism rather than the plutocracies that are manifesting. Any way.......Thanks for the exchange of ideas. I look forward to more discussions with you and I'm always open to seeing other people's viewpoints.
EotS