Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: vlad1m1r on June 05, 2012, 05:20 pm
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Dear all,
Here is what SR has to say on this topic:
"...Silk Road employs a built-in tumbler that mixes all incoming bitcoins through a series of dummy transactions before they ever leave. Visit Bitcoin.org to learn more."
I have been asked by several newer users now how we can be sure that SR does have a built in coin mixer as the site claims.
I don't claim to be an expert on block chain analysis but I have been experimenting with sending coins from various dummy SR accounts I have set up to a couple of client wallets (I use both the QT and Electrum software) as well as a brain wallet (my head still hurts) and then typing the BTC addresses into Blockchain.info. In each case the BTC address from which the coins were received is different to that used in the SR wallet.
As far as I can tell the answer to this question is therefore, yes - all coins withdrawn from an SR wallet are tumbled.
I also think that while this provides a greater level of anonymity, it would not be as great as that afforded by using a mixer such as Bitcoinfog as the entire amount of Bitcoins will be moved at the same time the Bitcoins are withdrawn from your SR wallet. Bitcoinfog allows withdrawal of random amounts of Bitcoins to several addresses over a longer period of time.
It's possible that I'm plain wrong and/or there's a method of analysing the block chain I've overlooked.
If there's anything I've missed I'd be grateful if one of our more gifted users would set me straight.
Many thanks in advance,
V.
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I second Vlad's statements, as I have also done experiments klike his and the blockchain does indeed show a different bitcoin address than the originating address. I have done the same tests with bitcoin fog (http://fogcore5n3ov3tui.onion) with the same positive result. This is very encouraging, as it appears to prove that both SR and bitcoin fog do tumble and anonym,ize, as much as can be hoped, your bitcoin transactions. Hurray for Hollyweird.
goblin
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vlad1m1r you're correct. There is a total disconnection between incoming and outgoing bitcoins to SR making traceability near impossible.
I also think that while this provides a greater level of anonymity, it would not be as great as that afforded by using a mixer such as Bitcoinfog as the entire amount of Bitcoins will be moved at the same time the Bitcoins are withdrawn from your SR wallet. Bitcoinfog allows withdrawal of random amounts of Bitcoins to several addresses over a longer period of time.
As you touch on here of course if you really want to trace bitcoins where there's a will there's a way, but it's so time consuming that no law enforcement is going to bother for someone's 500mg MDMA.
It should be noted however that particularly large transfers are obviously easier to trace so Bitcoinfog should definitely be used.
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Thanks Oscarzulu for your prompt response +1
To anyone who is wondering why given the above, you still would need my services (or indeed any other Bitcoin trader's!) please bear in mind the mixer is only any good to you once your BTC reach Silk Road.
Use an anonymous way to obtain your Bitcoins like paying cash or selling goods/services in order to make sure the process is anonymous from end to end.
V.
vlad1m1r you're correct. There is a total disconnection between incoming and outgoing bitcoins to SR making traceability near impossible.
I also think that while this provides a greater level of anonymity, it would not be as great as that afforded by using a mixer such as Bitcoinfog as the entire amount of Bitcoins will be moved at the same time the Bitcoins are withdrawn from your SR wallet. Bitcoinfog allows withdrawal of random amounts of Bitcoins to several addresses over a longer period of time.
As you touch on here of course if you really want to trace bitcoins where there's a will there's a way, but it's so time consuming that no law enforcement is going to bother for someone's 500mg MDMA.
It should be noted however that particularly large transfers are obviously easier to trace so Bitcoinfog should definitely be used.
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Understanding all this a lot better since a bit more reading on the subject and personal experimentation. Thanks for the info and assistance whether direct or indirect.
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All bitcoin is is a ledger.
There are NO discrete coins being passed around, no serial numbers, no benjamins, no washingtons and no satoshis. It is a history of transactions over a coin. Like a house, the coin never leaves the lot (miner), the miner just signs away title to it, or a room in it. You can subdivide or aggregate your titles and sign them away too..
jim ledgered he gave you 100 btc, ppl looked, said ok and signed it.
amy ledgered she gave you 100 btc, ppl looked, said ok and signed it.
you ledgered you gave 150 of that 200 (or just any 150 worth of title you have access to) to SR, ppl signed it.
can't pay in exact change? no prob, rip a larger title up and give yourself the remainder on the side.
SR (or any washer) took that 150 and spammed the ledger with it N number of ways, eventually making an entry giving you 150 back from whatever it had access to, ppl signed it.
All washing does it discharge your dirty title history into the cloud.
But since everyone else is farting in the cloud too, you're going to get some parts of dirty titles back.
Yes, mixers can ensure you don't get your same titles back during that washing session by keeping the addresses separate.
After that, all bets are off.
Bob could've got your dirt in his session, signed it over to larry who washed it in a future session, then you come by for round two and you now have parts of your dirty titles again.
All washing does is trade shit for shit.
Only one person ever had guaranteed clean title, the miner who crapped it into the cloud in the first place. And he probably got it from selling weed on SR to buy video cards off BMR shipped to his home address.
Washers could guarantee clean title but there is no 'tina stole my btc / scammed me' registry.
And there never will be because
- central banks and regulators are sooo dead
- her anon would be broken by standing up (she sells crack and smokes weed btw)
- no anon pki web exists
- and none of the three ever will because the whole thing would be fuck all complex and consume
all time/space/energy and full of anon fakes that no one would care. better to just secure your wallets
and deal with known entities as usual.
You could reject receipt of your own title history by inspecting proposed coin delivery, but then washers (easily fedz, or raided, or ordered) would have a log of that. And washers aren't going to wait around holding allocated bank for you while you sit there trying to avoid the fed by rejecting random coinloads including your own. So that don't work either.
OK, so that's what washers don't tell you... you eventually get dirty asscrack coin back, even your own.
And BTC/currency traders/exchangers don't tell you that either.
It's 6 degrees of freedom and you get dirt. That's all there is to it. (actually more like 2 degrees because the graph is small and half the population is illegal.)
Washing is real nice, a bunch of automated buying and selling amongst fake people, it helps, but it's not necessary. Separate addresses per transaction is a MUST, and bitcoin code should do this for you nowadays.
No washer, trader, buyer or seller is perfect, uncorruptible, unorderable or lives forever.
Any transactions that do hit the real world are subject to takedown, either from someone else's dirt, or your own.
Your only defense is to keep 100% of your transactions 100% anonymous.
Enjoy that free shipping :)
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All bitcoin is is a ledger.
There are NO discrete coins being passed around, no serial numbers, no benjamins, no washingtons and no satoshis. It is a history of transactions over a coin. Like a house, the coin never leaves the lot (miner), the miner just signs away title to it, or a room in it. You can subdivide or aggregate your titles and sign them away too..
jim ledgered he gave you 100 btc, ppl looked, said ok and signed it.
amy ledgered she gave you 100 btc, ppl looked, said ok and signed it.
you ledgered you gave 150 of that 200 (or just any 150 worth of title you have access to) to SR, ppl signed it.
can't pay in exact change? no prob, rip a larger title up and give yourself the remainder on the side.
SR (or any washer) took that 150 and spammed the ledger with it N number of ways, eventually making an entry giving you 150 back from whatever it had access to, ppl signed it.
All washing does it discharge your dirty title history into the cloud.
But since everyone else is farting in the cloud too, you're going to get some parts of dirty titles back.
Yes, mixers can ensure you don't get your same titles back during that washing session by keeping the addresses separate.
After that, all bets are off.
Bob could've got your dirt in his session, signed it over to larry who washed it in a future session, then you come by for round two and you now have parts of your dirty titles again.
All washing does is trade shit for shit.
Only one person ever had guaranteed clean title, the miner who crapped it into the cloud in the first place. And he probably got it from selling weed on SR to buy video cards off BMR shipped to his home address.
Washers could guarantee clean title but there is no 'tina stole my btc / scammed me' registry.
And there never will be because
- central banks and regulators are sooo dead
- her anon would be broken by standing up (she sells crack and smokes weed btw)
- no anon pki web exists
- and none of the three ever will because the whole thing would be fuck all complex and consume
all time/space/energy and full of anon fakes that no one would care. better to just secure your wallets
and deal with known entities as usual.
You could reject receipt of your own title history by inspecting proposed coin delivery, but then washers (easily fedz, or raided, or ordered) would have a log of that. And washers aren't going to wait around holding allocated bank for you while you sit there trying to avoid the fed by rejecting random coinloads including your own. So that don't work either.
OK, so that's what washers don't tell you... you eventually get dirty asscrack coin back, even your own.
And BTC/currency traders/exchangers don't tell you that either.
It's 6 degrees of freedom and you get dirt. That's all there is to it. (actually more like 2 degrees because the graph is small and half the population is illegal.)
Washing is real nice, a bunch of automated buying and selling amongst fake people, it helps, but it's not necessary. Separate addresses per transaction is a MUST, and bitcoin code should do this for you nowadays.
No washer, trader, buyer or seller is perfect, uncorruptible, unorderable or lives forever.
Any transactions that do hit the real world are subject to takedown, either from someone else's dirt, or your own.
Your only defense is to keep 100% of your transactions 100% anonymous.
Enjoy that free shipping :)
Thanks for this FlyFly - I actually feel a little embarrassed as I actually asked a question earlier today in a thread re: "clean" Bitcoins and you've answered it in your post above! Many thanks again.
V.