Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: abide on May 16, 2012, 02:45 pm
-
Hey guys and girls, long time lurker, first time poster. Just wanted to be 110% sure I'm doing this right before finally taking my first steps onto the road.
I made a deposit direct to Intersango from my bank a couple of weeks ago and exchanged my GBP for BTC, which I know is perfectly legal, but far from anonymous. From Intersango, I transferred to several separate wallets, then onwards to instawallets, then to bitcoinfog, with the ultimate destination being SR. Is this going to be enough to keep me from being linked bank to my bank a/c and personal details or should I be adding any extra layers?
Obviously buying the BTC anonymously in the first place would have been preferable, and I may well take that route in the future, but as there's currently no law against it, what would be the likelihood of my a/c or address being 'flagged' for purchasing a crypto currency which, let's face it, a large proportion of which will end up being used for purchases here and other shady places.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
-
Look for my last post in the 'all in one complete guide to SR' thread.
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=15383.msg234943#msg234943
Note: The 'future reference' is the method you ought to use if possible because it's less complicated and more secure.
-
Thanks Pine,
Looks like I done goofed then, I sent a small amount of BTC from my wallet -> instawallet -> bitcoinfog whilst connected to TOR, but as of yet haven't requested that they be sent on anywhere else from there. How bad news bears is that going to look? You think I should just send them back to my wallet, back to intersango, and cash out? Or write them off and put it down to experience, and start again truly anon?
My naivety is probably horrendous here, but without LE having access to my computer, how would it be possible to prove that the wallet I sent BTC to from my intersango account was in any way connected to me?
Thanks again.
-
Hi abide,
Welcome to SR!
Naturally the Police would need access to Intersango's record to link the account transfer to your Bitcoin address but once they had done this they would be able to trace the movement of funds to/from that address. Any coins you buy using traceable methods can be tracked in this way unless you run them through what is known as a "Mixer" which will swap your coins around with those of other users, usually for a small fee.
For future reference, if you want to be certain you've bought your BTC anonymously I sell Bitcoins in exchange for cash in the mail for people in the UK (please see link below).
As for the coins you have at the moment I suggest you run them through Bitcoinfog (http://fogcore5n3ov3tui.onion/) which will increase your anonymity and chalk this one down to experience.
Any other questions, please feel free to ask.
V.
Thanks Pine,
Looks like I done goofed then, I sent a small amount of BTC from my wallet -> instawallet -> bitcoinfog whilst connected to TOR, but as of yet haven't requested that they be sent on anywhere else from there. How bad news bears is that going to look? You think I should just send them back to my wallet, back to intersango, and cash out? Or write them off and put it down to experience, and start again truly anon?
My naivety is probably horrendous here, but without LE having access to my computer, how would it be possible to prove that the wallet I sent BTC to from my intersango account was in any way connected to me?
Thanks again.
-
Good post pine. One question/issue :
If I buy bitcoin from an exchange using bank deposit and access from another network + computer, then send those bitcoins directly to bitcoinfog (or maybe even instawallet --> bitcoinfog) accessing these sites after I've sent the coins on TOR, then how is that incriminating?
It's not illegal to buy or sell bitcoins, and it's certainly not illegal to send bitcoins to another user, which is what it looks like. How is anyone to know that the person I'm sending bitcoins (well.. me) is intending to use them for illicit activity? It's precisely the reason why you can't get in trouble for receiving drugs in the mail.
-
Actually Gustono, I'm afraid you can get into trouble for receiving drugs in the mail in the UK where we live.
I went into this in some detail in another thread (Please see: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=9543.msg189546#msg189546) but essentially it boils down to Possession itself being the offence under the Misuse of Drugs Act - taking ownership of a package is generally accepted to entail taking ownership of its contents therefore if you accept contraband into your home or sign for them at a postal depot, you can be arrested.
If you try to plead ignorance i.e innocent possession this is a defence but it is what is known as a rebuttable presumption i.e the onus will be upon you to demonstrate you were ignorant as to the contents of the package. Ultimately it will be for a jury to decide.
It is not however illegal to buy or sell Bitcoins in itself. The incriminating part comes in where you use an unsafe method to buy Bitcoins which can then potentially be linked to an illicit transaction.
V.
Good post pine. One question/issue :
If I buy bitcoin from an exchange using bank deposit and access from another network + computer, then send those bitcoins directly to bitcoinfog (or maybe even instawallet --> bitcoinfog) on TOR, then how is that incriminating? It's not illegal to buy or sell bitcoins, and it's certainly not illegal to send bitcoins to another user, which is what it looks like. How is anyone to know that the person I'm sending bitcoins (well.. me) is intending to use them for illicit activity? It's precisely the reason why you can't get in trouble for receiving drugs in the mail.
-
Actually Gustono, I'm afraid you can get into trouble for receiving drugs in the mail in the UK where we live.
I went into this in some detail in another thread (Please see: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=9543.msg189546#msg189546) but essentially it boils down to Possession itself being the offence under the Misuse of Drugs Act - taking ownership of a package is generally accepted to entail taking ownership of its contents therefore if you accept contraband into your home or sign for them at a postal depot, you can be arrested.
If you try to plead ignorance i.e innocent possession this is a defence but it is what is known as a rebuttable presumption i.e the onus will be upon you to demonstrate you were ignorant as to the contents of the package. Ultimately it will be for a jury to decide.
It is not however illegal to buy or sell Bitcoins in itself. The incriminating part comes in where you use an unsafe method to buy Bitcoins which can then potentially be linked to an illicit transaction.
V.
Good post pine. One question/issue :
If I buy bitcoin from an exchange using bank deposit and access from another network + computer, then send those bitcoins directly to bitcoinfog (or maybe even instawallet --> bitcoinfog) on TOR, then how is that incriminating? It's not illegal to buy or sell bitcoins, and it's certainly not illegal to send bitcoins to another user, which is what it looks like. How is anyone to know that the person I'm sending bitcoins (well.. me) is intending to use them for illicit activity? It's precisely the reason why you can't get in trouble for receiving drugs in the mail.
You can be arrested, but you certainly can't be charged for receiving drugs as anyone could send you anything. Once you've signed it/opened it you're done for though, which when you think about it is ridiculous because someone could try to set someone up, and when the poor fellow opens the package unknowingly he will get fucked over, but will work out eventually if he's 100% legitimate.
As long as you leave no trail behind (liveusb, no drugs in house) then even tracing bitcoins back is ultimately useless, because all illicit trading will be done over TOR so no linking of IP addresses to transactions, bitcoinfog makes this even harder, only the buying of bitcoins will be traceable, but like I said it's out of your hands what "someone" does with those coins ;).
Even then if they were to track it that far back, most people use bank deposits and proxies (pine mentioned this in his post) so it would be even harder to pinpoint the illicit trading and buying bitcoins to one person.
-
..particularly if they bought them using cash! I'm a shameless plug I know.
No seriously, I think the CPS would step in and use the "public interest" veto they have on matters if some 65 year old Nun received a ton of hash in the post but as for the Bitcoins, it's not certain if a detailed analysis of the Blockchain would be enough evidence in court to pin on someone.
I think certainly it could be used to put together an overall pattern of intelligence, which is why, quite unselfishly, I think it behoves users to obtain Bitcoins as discretely as possible. The problem is compounded by the fact that cashing out of Bitcoins is also not anonymous if handled incorrectly (let's not go into details here!)
Having said that as you say proving that someone sent coins to a Bitcoin exchange in itself proves nothing - I used this method to send some money to a relative in Australia the other day as a way of avoiding extortionate Western Union fees for instance. However I think our goal should be perfect secrecy (even if this is unattainable), so suggest we seize with both hands any opportunities to cover our tracks!
V.
Actually Gustono, I'm afraid you can get into trouble for receiving drugs in the mail in the UK where we live.
I went into this in some detail in another thread (Please see: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=9543.msg189546#msg189546) but essentially it boils down to Possession itself being the offence under the Misuse of Drugs Act - taking ownership of a package is generally accepted to entail taking ownership of its contents therefore if you accept contraband into your home or sign for them at a postal depot, you can be arrested.
If you try to plead ignorance i.e innocent possession this is a defence but it is what is known as a rebuttable presumption i.e the onus will be upon you to demonstrate you were ignorant as to the contents of the package. Ultimately it will be for a jury to decide.
It is not however illegal to buy or sell Bitcoins in itself. The incriminating part comes in where you use an unsafe method to buy Bitcoins which can then potentially be linked to an illicit transaction.
V.
Good post pine. One question/issue :
If I buy bitcoin from an exchange using bank deposit and access from another network + computer, then send those bitcoins directly to bitcoinfog (or maybe even instawallet --> bitcoinfog) on TOR, then how is that incriminating? It's not illegal to buy or sell bitcoins, and it's certainly not illegal to send bitcoins to another user, which is what it looks like. How is anyone to know that the person I'm sending bitcoins (well.. me) is intending to use them for illicit activity? It's precisely the reason why you can't get in trouble for receiving drugs in the mail.
You can be arrested, but you certainly can't be charged for receiving drugs as anyone could send you anything. Once you've signed it/opened it you're done for though, which when you think about it is ridiculous because someone could try to set someone up, and when the poor fellow opens the package unknowingly he will get fucked over, but will work out eventually if he's 100% legitimate.
As long as you leave no trail behind (liveusb, no drugs in house) then even tracing bitcoins back is ultimately useless, because all illicit trading will be done over TOR so no linking of IP addresses to transactions, bitcoinfog makes this even harder, only the buying of bitcoins will be traceable, but like I said it's out of your hands what "someone" does with those coins ;).
Even then if they were to track it that far back, most people use bank deposits and proxies (pine mentioned this in his post) so it would be even harder to pinpoint the illicit trading and buying bitcoins to one person.
-
Agreed, FYI Vlad if you dropped your commission fees down to 7-8% I would use your service, not trying to sound rude or offend you with your current fees as they are probably like that for a good reason, jus sayin.
And to OP, leaving it in a bitcoinfog tumbler for 4 days will be sufficient to cover your tracks, take it as a loss and move on.
The new protocol seems to be :
Deposit cash in to MtGox --> Access clearnet through proxy/computer + network not related to you (former preferred) --> bitcoinfog/instawallet (former preferred) --> SR.
-
Using your bank account to buy some bitcoins from intersango is NOT a worry.
Not unless you maybe buy like 10,000 BTC - or even 2000 BTC as Intersango or any financial institution has to report on anyone who goes beyond £5000 in transactions.
BTC is NOT illegal but it will be being watched as the police know there will be a few silly dealers who cash out from intersango to their own bank account.
but if your just spending a few hundred BTC a year - I'd not worry. You could be investing in BTC or actually be into BTC gambling or porn or all the legal services we have on evenSR.
SR is just one of MANY sites that take BTC.
If I was trading BTC I would take cash payments but be very careful as all it needs is for the cops to send some cash and you may be a target for a money launderer. Just make sure you make yourself and your cash distance buddies!
Intersango WILL be watched by the cops. Odds are if they see BIG deals being done - and people cashing out thousands of BTC per month then you ought to expect a knock or actually more like a 'CRASH' as the door flies in and men in masks shout 'don't move we are the police'.
As someone who maybe spends 75-100 BTC per week - I can either go to a bank and pay in anon but now intersango use some small bank with no brnches anywhere. Paying into TSB still works but takes longer than paying via your bank to their new bank account.
Like I say BTC is spent on lots of things. Maybe you hire an escort each month and get a good old thrashing. Its your right! Actually I will give you a good whipping for 15 BTC! And if your name is Tony and your from Canda I'll actually use a food mixer - which gets quite messy and to be honest its a trip to hospital sex actually. Doctors will have WTF looks on their faces. Its rare for a man to have a whipped cream blender stuck up his ass. But for Tony I'd do that. My 'feel the love' sale would cost him nothing.
So - hey, don't worry about buying BTC. Bertter still set up a website selling ordinary legal things with BTC as the coinage.
I plan to do this.
Also plan to so stuff here under another name!
But I am learning this Linux secure configuration stuff - virtual box operating systems and USB sticks with secure linux on.
People sell that stuff here. That can save the lives of 'dissidents' whose dissidence might be to be gay in some nation which would kill anyone who stood up and said they were gay. It can give a voice to people who would surely die if they spoke out in public.
The worse people can cry about on here is that some vendors sell heroin!
You can go to any pub in the UK and find someone who knows someone who can ring up someone delivering 'heroin' in ten mins. In my city heroin is sold 27/7. The 'team' consists of someone in a house/flat minding the gear and cutting it, A driver and someone who will happily use over the top violence. The heroin users, many who use heroin as an anti depressant in my view, are treated like dirt by the 'vendors'. They are bullied, ripped off more often thn not and sold a 'heroin' which is sold here would last about a week before we saw everyone state it was shit.
So morally speaking I don't care if some site I use for legal things has some illegal things going on. Its like life itself.
Anyhow - the more of spending bitcoins openly the better. I would reccomened everyone who has some hobby that creates something to run a onion website and charge BTC for your wares. I would love to spend BTC on many of the things people out there have in the attic and lofts.
Maybe a BTC site to be as Ebay ought to have been.
So lets do that!
And less worrying about buying BTC fron bank accounts! As long as you do not go wild then its ok. but truth be told - I do not know why some here do not do not sell BTC by ingenious methods that cannot be traced. You offer one item on some low percentage taking popular website - set certain conditions to make sure people order what they need. For example plastic soldiers, someone orders 40, you know they want 40 BTC.
Sending cash by post is not 100% safe and it would be easier for a BTC trader to come up with an idea that just allowed instant purchases that released those instant BTC to you.
Intersango is getting better and I now usually order and get the BTC in an instant. From there I do not mess with my own wallet and just send it to a different SR wallet every-time. Here the BTC is put through a process whereby nobody knows what I bought. Could have been an escort service with some Russian or could have been me buying a seciond hand laptop off some guy from France or any one of the hundreds of legal products on sale here on SR.
So don't worry so much.
In the UK we could test the entire population for drugs and 20% of us would have something in there.
The cops who will be given the task of trying to stop SR will be tech savvy but they will know that they need to catch some serious movement of drugs to justify the cost. Unlike real life - its not worth anything catching a buyer. buyer here cannot be set up as a snitch - because none of us know each other. All we have is an envelope. And guess what? SR did not invent posting drugs through the post. Its been going on ever since the post was invented! I recall sending hash from my town in the 80s to places were it was twice as expensive. Never made cash. Done friends the favor. but back then it was just wrap in a load of clingfilm and hope for the best. It all got through but we had no sniffer dogs and less posties who can smell skunk at ten yards through an envelope.
Main danger with BTC is buying too many which makes you look like a dealer. Even then - the dealers here for the most part do not know each other. If one was caught they would not wiser than the average buyer.
I suspects cops have set fake accounts up to harvest addresses. They could in theory narrow down postal areas packages are sent from. But in many major cities there are thousands of postboxes! I guess dealers selling BIG amounts.
In my eyes, users here just buying a few grams of whatever ought not to worry. Spending maybe 100 BTC per month is not a worry. Dealers deal in thousands. If you use bank accounts to tranfer funds to intersango and buy up a shit load of BTC the authorities have been notified.
If you sell BTC - best be self employed. At worse in the UK its going to be seen as work and if your unemployed then its cheating! Be careful.
Good luck!
I'm just off to transfer a few pounds to Intersango tomorrow to boost up my account to buy the shopping basket of legal things I have. Got a pair of Suzi Quatros used knickers for 36.8 BTC. Guy reckons they been in a sealed bag since the 70s. My therapist says this stuff is some 'fucked up shit from my childhood' I was circumcised at the time Suzi was top of the pops.
I'm only half Jewish though - Jewish dad and mum was a Christin but Grandmother a Jew. They reckon my grandad was the only survivor on some bad ship torpedo incident. More than likely he got pissed or got at the morphine and done a classic act of FUBAR. He lived off that survival story and introduced harks into it in later years. He ate an injured albatross and uses bits of clothes for fishing line. He must have drank 10,000 pints on that story but good luck to him. Poor sould died actual in a conjugal act. Felt sorry for the poor dear he was with. Imagine he just dies on top of you. For a while you let him rest - its nice to chill after the act of love making. but then you discover your having sex with a dead man. Well, he died happy.
Anyhow fear not. The more of us spend BTC the better. Sell something you got here for BTC. Teddy bears. Anything really. I'll sell my collections of porn magazines from the 70s and 80s - I'll let them got for the class price of 10 BTC (the mags are NOT stained!!) postage will be 4500 BTC lol. And if you could recommend a good physiotherapist who specializes in wrist movement - I'd shale you hand well - lets just nod in agreement then.
I don't suppose any chance of some kosha deals from any fellow Jews here? Then again that would be bad as we could all do better deals for our social group of birth. I don't do any religious stuff.
-
^^ I want some of what this guy is on.
-
^^ I want some of what this guy is on.
I like the idea of a 27 hour day!
Anyway, if I speak too much on this people are going to say I have a vested interest as I sell Bitcoins for cash but I still maintain it's the safest way along with selling goods/services for BTC. Anything else is your ass. Anyone who disagrees feel free to do so, I welcome all comments!
V.
-
redalloverthelandguyhere you are a funny fucker. funny, but you have holes in your buying method. Definitely put your coins bought via bank account through bitcoin fog man..
-
Thanks Pine,
Looks like I done goofed then, I sent a small amount of BTC from my wallet -> instawallet -> bitcoinfog whilst connected to TOR, but as of yet haven't requested that they be sent on anywhere else from there. How bad news bears is that going to look? You think I should just send them back to my wallet, back to intersango, and cash out? Or write them off and put it down to experience, and start again truly anon?
My naivety is probably horrendous here, but without LE having access to my computer, how would it be possible to prove that the wallet I sent BTC to from my intersango account was in any way connected to me?
Thanks again.
Yes, start over. It's just simpler and less error prone than diagnosing & implementing an anonymity fix for your current situation. Send the marked BTC to your favorite charity/clearnet service and consider it a lesson.
You see, I assume the following:
-> The Silk Road is compromised by the FBI
-> All online bitcoin wallet services are really FBI
-> All the exchanges are FBI
-> All the mixers are FBI
You get the picture...
My methods prevent my anonymity being compromised even if all my assumptions are true.
--
You asked how LE could track you down, the answer to that depends on how precisely you acquired the bitcoins and which stages at which you were using Tor, so maybe explain that in further detail step by step so we can run through the thought experiment.
-
Good post pine. One question/issue :
If I buy bitcoin from an exchange using bank deposit and access from another network + computer, then send those bitcoins directly to bitcoinfog (or maybe even instawallet --> bitcoinfog) accessing these sites after I've sent the coins on TOR, then how is that incriminating?
Did you setup the exchange account on your computer or this other network's computer? (because if it's the first then the exchange already has your IP address anyway) I assume you're talking about walking physically to something like an internet cafe.
If it's the latter, then you should be ok but you will still potentially throw some red flags through use of Tor when accessing the exchange.
You see, ideally you are using a proxy within the same country that the bank deposit was made at. It's a bit weird to be depositing money in Florida and then 10 minutes later the exchange account is accessed in Belize. So I assume that would throw a red flag unless you rip your shirt and bare your chest in the bank to demonstrate the superman logo (faster than a speeding bullet!).
This implies that you wouldn't actually be using Tor on the other network's computer. Naturally I'm slightly uncomfortable with that idea because of CCTV and other caveats like what if your computer requires a login, fingerprints etc. Possibly you should be using thin layered gloves, dark glasses and a hat. Just sunglasses and liquid band-aid works too so long as you don't have criminal record.
So; you still ought to access a private proxy in your region and access that via the Tor network for maximum security (at this other network instead of home computer).
However, so long as you take care of the caveats like CCTV et al as I described, there's nothing wrong with your idea of using another network's computer, all of this really is a function of just how paranoid you are and how paranoid you should be (i.e. how much you're buying). I mean, if we're talking about 20 BTC, then my instructions in this post are overkill. But if it's 20,000 BTC then I'll call you an idiot for not following them, I think you understand what I mean. ;-)
-
^^ I want some of what this guy is on.
I like the idea of a 27 hour day!
Anyway, if I speak too much on this people are going to say I have a vested interest as I sell Bitcoins for cash but I still maintain it's the safest way along with selling goods/services for BTC. Anything else is your ass. Anyone who disagrees feel free to do so, I welcome all comments!
V.
Well, there are some disadvantages, but there is a large advantage in that you can prevent a geographical profiling attack beginning on your anonymity. You should emphasize that in your marketing strategy!
-
Yes, start over. It's just simpler and less error prone than diagnosing & implementing an anonymity fix for your current situation. Send the marked BTC to your favorite charity/clearnet service and consider it a lesson.
You see, I assume the following:
-> The Silk Road is compromised by the FBI
-> All online bitcoin wallet services are really FBI
-> All the exchanges are FBI
-> All the mixers are FBI
You get the picture...
My methods prevent my anonymity being compromised even if all my assumptions are true.
--
You asked how LE could track you down, the answer to that depends on how precisely you acquired the bitcoins and which stages at which you were using Tor, so maybe explain that in further detail step by step so we can run through the thought experiment.
Okay, so the steps I took were:
1) Setup intersango account & transfer funds from my bank account -> intersango -> convert funds to bitcoin (clearnet)
2) Setup online wallets at blockchain.info (Tor)
3) Transferred bitcoin in varying amounts from intersango -> various different wallets at blockchain.info (clearnet)
4) Transferred small amount from one wallet at blockchain.info -> instawallet (Tor)
5) Transferred same small amount in 4) -> bitcoinfog (Tor)
That's it. Some of the bitcoins are now sat in bitcoinfog. Too risky to withdraw and use elsewhere you think? Other than sending somewhere completely benign, that is.
Thanks for taking the time to reply once again.
-
Yes, start over. It's just simpler and less error prone than diagnosing & implementing an anonymity fix for your current situation. Send the marked BTC to your favorite charity/clearnet service and consider it a lesson.
You see, I assume the following:
-> The Silk Road is compromised by the FBI
-> All online bitcoin wallet services are really FBI
-> All the exchanges are FBI
-> All the mixers are FBI
You get the picture...
My methods prevent my anonymity being compromised even if all my assumptions are true.
--
You asked how LE could track you down, the answer to that depends on how precisely you acquired the bitcoins and which stages at which you were using Tor, so maybe explain that in further detail step by step so we can run through the thought experiment.
Okay, so the steps I took were:
1) Setup intersango account & transfer funds from my bank account -> intersango -> convert funds to bitcoin (clearnet)
2) Setup online wallets at blockchain.info (Tor)
3) Transferred bitcoin in varying amounts from intersango -> various different wallets at blockchain.info (clearnet)
4) Transferred small amount from one wallet at blockchain.info -> instawallet (Tor)
5) Transferred same small amount in 4) -> bitcoinfog (Tor)
That's it. Some of the bitcoins are now sat in bitcoinfog. Too risky to withdraw and use elsewhere you think? Other than sending somewhere completely benign, that is.
Thanks for taking the time to reply once again.
Actually now that I know how you approached acquiring the bitcoins this is fairly satisfactory because you cleanly broke the chain of evidence in steps two and three (it seems that this is where most people are going wrong), it also gives you 1 layer of untraceability once you're through the mixer. However I would prefer it if the exchange did not know your identity in the first place. Don't send the bitcoins you have now (either at bitcoinfog or at the wallets) back to the exchange because you'll have created a loop (they'll be able to infer you used bitcoinfog and the wallets, whereas now there is no direct evidence for that).
-
Thanks Pine, a very well deserved +1.
V.
^^ I want some of what this guy is on.
I like the idea of a 27 hour day!
Anyway, if I speak too much on this people are going to say I have a vested interest as I sell Bitcoins for cash but I still maintain it's the safest way along with selling goods/services for BTC. Anything else is your ass. Anyone who disagrees feel free to do so, I welcome all comments!
V.
Well, there are some disadvantages, but there is a large advantage in that you can prevent a geographical profiling attack beginning on your anonymity. You should emphasize that in your marketing strategy!
-
Actually now that I know how you approached acquiring the bitcoins this is fairly satisfactory because you cleanly broke the chain of evidence in steps two and three (it seems that this is where most people are going wrong), it also gives you 1 layer of untraceability once you're through the mixer. However I would prefer it if the exchange did not know your identity in the first place. Don't send the bitcoins you have now (either at bitcoinfog or at the wallets) back to the exchange because you'll have created a loop (they'll be able to infer you used bitcoinfog and the wallets, whereas now there is no direct evidence for that).
[/quote]
Good, that's put my mind at rest a bit then. One more question - what to do with the remaining bitcoins I have in my blockchain.info wallets? If accessing instawallet via Tor is a no-no, is it reasonably safe to transfer them direct to bitcoinfog and then on to wherever ::)?
-
Sorry if I have missed something but what is the issue with accessing Instawallet via Tor?
I would have thought that sending money to Instawallet (having accessed it from Tor to get the address) and then sending it on from there via Tor would provide better privacy. Or am I missing something?
-
Hey guys and girls, long time lurker, first time poster. Just wanted to be 110% sure I'm doing this right before finally taking my first steps onto the road.
I made a deposit direct to Intersango from my bank a couple of weeks ago and exchanged my GBP for BTC, which I know is perfectly legal, but far from anonymous. From Intersango, I transferred to several separate wallets, then onwards to instawallets, then to bitcoinfog, with the ultimate destination being SR. Is this going to be enough to keep me from being linked bank to my bank a/c and personal details or should I be adding any extra layers?
Obviously buying the BTC anonymously in the first place would have been preferable, and I may well take that route in the future, but as there's currently no law against it, what would be the likelihood of my a/c or address being 'flagged' for purchasing a crypto currency which, let's face it, a large proportion of which will end up being used for purchases here and other shady places.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Did you use a Swiss bank account to make the initial deposit?
Seriously you are taking this was too far.
-
The point is that proving someone has bought Bitcoins while seemingly harmless in itself could form part of a wider case of evidence being built against them.
This is particularly true for those people who buy set sums which can then be observed entering and leaving the block chain.
Using mixers of course hugely increases your privacy but I've said and I maintain that all these problems disappear when you buy Bitcoins anonymously with cash - and I'm not just saying that to get customers, the same goes for you folks in the Land of the Free too!
V.
Hey guys and girls, long time lurker, first time poster. Just wanted to be 110% sure I'm doing this right before finally taking my first steps onto the road.
I made a deposit direct to Intersango from my bank a couple of weeks ago and exchanged my GBP for BTC, which I know is perfectly legal, but far from anonymous. From Intersango, I transferred to several separate wallets, then onwards to instawallets, then to bitcoinfog, with the ultimate destination being SR. Is this going to be enough to keep me from being linked bank to my bank a/c and personal details or should I be adding any extra layers?
Obviously buying the BTC anonymously in the first place would have been preferable, and I may well take that route in the future, but as there's currently no law against it, what would be the likelihood of my a/c or address being 'flagged' for purchasing a crypto currency which, let's face it, a large proportion of which will end up being used for purchases here and other shady places.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Did you use a Swiss bank account to make the initial deposit?
Seriously you are taking this was too far.
-
The point is that proving someone has bought Bitcoins while seemingly harmless in itself could form part of a wider case of evidence being built against them.
This is not an issue for buyers.
There is no task force gathering evidence on buyers.
This guy hasn't even made his first purchase yet so who exactly is building a case against him?
It is a concern for sellers or people who buy huge quantitys, but the vast majority of people have absolutely nothing to worry about.
-
This would be the same vast majority who are having illegal goods delivered to their homes and want to try to claim they were unsolicited if they're caught?
The naivete!
V.
The point is that proving someone has bought Bitcoins while seemingly harmless in itself could form part of a wider case of evidence being built against them.
This is not an issue for buyers.
There is no task force gathering evidence on buyers.
This guy hasn't even made his first purchase yet so who exactly is building a case against him?
It is a concern for sellers or people who buy huge quantitys, but the vast majority of people have absolutely nothing to worry about.
-
This would be the same vast majority who are having illegal goods delivered to their homes and want to try to claim they were unsolicited if they're caught?
The naivete!
V.
The key to survival is in accurately assessing risk and not simply realizing that risk exists.
Some people have spent small fortunes on nuclear fallout shelters as they feel that there is a risk of nuclear war. and that somehow that will be able to survive in the post apocalyptic wasteland that remains.
Others feel that there is a risk that their children may be shot or stabbed at school and therefore send their children to school wearing bullet proof vests.
There are some people who feel that because there is a risk of a plane crashing they refuse to fly.
The risks that these people have identified all all valid, wars happen, children are killed at school and planes do indeed crash.
However their response to the risk they have identified is disproportionate to the likelihood of the risk occurring and hence society labels these people as paranoid.
Whilst there is merit in making your bitcoin history untraceable, there is almost no chance of being caught as a result of not doing this as no one is actually trying to trace small transactions. Hence, going to these lengths is really just an exercise in paranoia.
-
Yes, start over. It's just simpler and less error prone than diagnosing & implementing an anonymity fix for your current situation. Send the marked BTC to your favorite charity/clearnet service and consider it a lesson.
You see, I assume the following:
-> The Silk Road is compromised by the FBI
-> All online bitcoin wallet services are really FBI
-> All the exchanges are FBI
-> All the mixers are FBI
You get the picture...
My methods prevent my anonymity being compromised even if all my assumptions are true.
--
You asked how LE could track you down, the answer to that depends on how precisely you acquired the bitcoins and which stages at which you were using Tor, so maybe explain that in further detail step by step so we can run through the thought experiment.
Okay, so the steps I took were:
1) Setup intersango account & transfer funds from my bank account -> intersango -> convert funds to bitcoin (clearnet)
2) Setup online wallets at blockchain.info (Tor)
3) Transferred bitcoin in varying amounts from intersango -> various different wallets at blockchain.info (clearnet)
4) Transferred small amount from one wallet at blockchain.info -> instawallet (Tor)
5) Transferred same small amount in 4) -> bitcoinfog (Tor)
That's it. Some of the bitcoins are now sat in bitcoinfog. Too risky to withdraw and use elsewhere you think? Other than sending somewhere completely benign, that is.
Thanks for taking the time to reply once again.
Actually now that I know how you approached acquiring the bitcoins this is fairly satisfactory because you cleanly broke the chain of evidence in steps two and three (it seems that this is where most people are going wrong), it also gives you 1 layer of untraceability once you're through the mixer. However I would prefer it if the exchange did not know your identity in the first place. Don't send the bitcoins you have now (either at bitcoinfog or at the wallets) back to the exchange because you'll have created a loop (they'll be able to infer you used bitcoinfog and the wallets, whereas now there is no direct evidence for that).
So, would be sending bitcoins from intersango --> bitcoinfog be unsatisfactory? I don't see how. Using bitcoinfog essentially does all the instawallet work for you.
-
Sorry if I have missed something but what is the issue with accessing Instawallet via Tor?
I would have thought that sending money to Instawallet (having accessed it from Tor to get the address) and then sending it on from there via Tor would provide better privacy. Or am I missing something?
So, would be sending bitcoins from intersango --> bitcoinfog be unsatisfactory? I don't see how. Using bitcoinfog essentially does all the instawallet work for you.
If anyone's got anything to say about either of these two points I'd be really interested to hear.
-
Imagine you're in court for receiving drugs in the mail and you're trying to claim that you had no idea what was in the package when you signed for it.
Prosecutor : So you'd no idea that there were drugs in the package?
You : No, I never touch drugs:
Prosecutor : So may it please the court, I am presenting the defendant with a Exhibit A, a copy of his bank statement, could you please read out the third entry?
You : <<insert name of Bitcoin provider here>>
Prosecutor : Are you aware that Bitcoins are the sole currency of Silk Road, an online marketplace used to buy narcotics?
You : Oh no, I'm shocked I had no idea!
Prosecutor: What then did you buy Bitcoins for if you didn't order any drugs?
You : Oh er well... there are plenty of legal uses for Bitcoin... I was ordering a T-shirt, yes that's it, a T-Shirt!
Prosecutor: So which website was it that you ordered the T-shirt from?
You: Oh erm, well I can't quite remember...
Jury shakes heads in disapproval and hope you had the good sense to pack some KY Jelly as you'll need it real soon.
...Need I go on?
This conversation wouldn't happen if you were in this situation and had bought your BTC using cash. This doesn't necessarily mean you'd get off the hook but how would you account for your purchase of Bitcoins under these circumstances? Do you really think you could persuade a jury of your peers that there was an innocent explanation?
V.
This would be the same vast majority who are having illegal goods delivered to their homes and want to try to claim they were unsolicited if they're caught?
The naivete!
V.
The key to survival is in accurately assessing risk and not simply realizing that risk exists.
Some people have spent small fortunes on nuclear fallout shelters as they feel that there is a risk of nuclear war. and that somehow that will be able to survive in the post apocalyptic wasteland that remains.
Others feel that there is a risk that their children may be shot or stabbed at school and therefore send their children to school wearing bullet proof vests.
There are some people who feel that because there is a risk of a plane crashing they refuse to fly.
The risks that these people have identified all all valid, wars happen, children are killed at school and planes do indeed crash.
However their response to the risk they have identified is disproportionate to the likelihood of the risk occurring and hence society labels these people as paranoid.
Whilst there is merit in making your bitcoin history untraceable, there is almost no chance of being caught as a result of not doing this as no one is actually trying to trace small transactions. Hence, going to these lengths is really just an exercise in paranoia.
-
Thanks vlad. I get the point about anonymising procurement of the bitcoins in the first place, and if I'd known about your services before taking the exchange route I may very well have taken you up on the offer, and likely will in the future. My question remains with the two quotes I posted, and sorry if I've misread the situation and you were just replying to Duckman, so I repeat:
a) what are the issues with accessing instawallet via tor?
b) is it unsatisfactory sending coins from an exchange or wallet created in tor -> bitcoinfog? Should somebody be sufficiently interested to investigate the blockchain, how would it be possible for them to establish, and furthermore, prove, that the coins were sent to a tumbling service (bearing in mind a new address is used for each deposit), rather than something entirely more innocent?
-
Thanks vlad. I get the point about anonymising procurement of the bitcoins in the first place, and if I'd known about your services before taking the exchange route I may very well have taken you up on the offer, and likely will in the future. My question remains with the two quotes I posted, and sorry if I've misread the situation and you were just replying to Duckman, so I repeat:
a) what are the issues with accessing instawallet via tor?
b) is it unsatisfactory sending coins from an exchange or wallet created in tor -> bitcoinfog? Should somebody be sufficiently interested to investigate the blockchain, how would it be possible for them to establish, and furthermore, prove, that the coins were sent to a tumbling service (bearing in mind a new address is used for each deposit), rather than something entirely more innocent?
Hi abide,
a) There are no known issues that I know off however there was a recent case of a Tor hidden service masquerading as Instawallet. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50013.0) - also you need to be able to keep a copy of the Instwallet URL in order to retrieve your coins so make sure you add it to your book marks if you use the Tor Browser - you won't be able to browse through your history to recover the link if you fail to do this.
b) Firstly a little 101 c/o the Bitcoin Fog website on how their mixer works:
A link could be made if you would get paid from the same address that you have deposited bitcoins to. This is not the case with Bitcoin Fog. The money you deposit actually stay on the random initial address we generate for you. Only when our main account is running low, do we transfer the money from your deposit address to the main pool. That way, you may get a payout from the pool, while your original money is still sitting on the random initial account, not linked to your payout anywhere in the block chain. Since it is just a bitcoin address like any other, there is no way to even see that you have deposited money to Bitcoin Fog, and not to a random account you have generated yourself. (Until the pool runs low and transfers your original money.)
Even if you waited long enough time for your money to be transferred to the pool, there is still no reliable way to see that it was your original transfer that is the source of your payout, since it is mixed with other users' transfers.
Another thing to consider is the amount of your withdrawal. If you transfer 1.382 to us, and the next day you withdraw ~1.38 bitcoins to another account, those amounts will be visible in the block chain, and unless there were 10 other people that day that also withdrew just 1.38 bitcoins, the link between your deposit and your withdrawal will be pretty obvious. You will still have plausible deniability, since nobody else has access to our servers and can actually prove that those bitcoins came from your account, but the link will be found nevertheless.
This is why you should ideally never withdraw the same amount as you have deposited. We are already helping you to do this by transferring your money to you in multiple randomized payouts at randomized times (and optionally to different addresses), but to be sure you should withdraw to multiple addresses and different amounts than the one you have deposited. Also make sure to change your deposit address every now and then to further anonymize your payments.
So in short there's no way to tell through analysis of the block chain alone that the address to which you've sent your coins was BitcoinFog's or one you made up (yes this is possible! more on that later).
It is also possible to send Bitcoins through Bitcoinfog or another mixing service a number of times or (as I recommend) withdrawing random amounts to multiple wallets over a longer period of time, all of which will make it much more difficult to trace the flow of your funds.
Having said this, transferring a similar amount to your original deposit into a single wallet later on and then extracting it from the Block chain e.g by withdrawal to your bank account could mean that it's possible to surmise the coins are yours (insofar as coins can be said to be "yours" or "mine").
As I explained in the example above, breaking the chain of causation in itself doesn't necessarily mean it will be impossible to suggest you've done something illicit - in the case of someone who has received a package in the mail and is trying to plead ignorance, the proof that you purchased Bitcoins in itself may well be enough to sway a jury who might otherwise have given you the benefit of the doubt.
So the short answer is that while using a mixing service properly may stop someone from proving a direct transfer of funds from you to someone else via the Bitcoin block chain, the real risk lies in proving you bought said Bitcoins in the first place. As such I'd recommend using cash or selling digital goods / products in exchange for Bitcoins - I am not just saying this to profit from your custom as I think you're in the US(?) - it's just a matter of leaving no loose ends.
V.
-
Does anyone know the reason as to why Intersango stopped cash deposits? MtGox have been doing it for the longest time ever but intersango have been on and off.
-
I imagine they want to be seen to be doing what they can not to be accepting drug money - obviously the cash grants a certain amount of anonymity to the person making the deposit.
Doesn't MtGox still allow deposits via Barclays? I prefer Intersango as Metro Bank processes orders within a few hours.
V.
Does anyone know the reason as to why Intersango stopped cash deposits? MtGox have been doing it for the longest time ever but intersango have been on and off.
-
Yes they do, but there's always a risk of MtGox declining and asking for ID as well as the effort of accessing it via a proxy or using a computer+network unrelated to you.
Vlad you seem to be a fountain of information at the moment so would you like to explain how to use a proxy for free with Tor for a "Thank"? :D
-
Sorry Gustono, I really don't mean to be a know it all, it's just there was this one guy who got my goat as he was confusing newer people by the forums by telling them disk encryption wasn't necessary.
Anyway, on to your dilemma - take a gander at:
https://www.torproject.org/docs/proxychain.html.en
Let me know if you have any questions.
V.
Yes they do, but there's always a risk of MtGox declining and asking for ID as well as the effort of accessing it via a proxy or using a computer+network unrelated to you.
Vlad you seem to be a fountain of information at the moment so would you like to explain how to use a proxy for free with Tor for a "Thank"? :D
-
Imagine you're in court for receiving drugs in the mail and you're trying to claim that you had no idea what was in the package when you signed for it.
Prosecutor : So you'd no idea that there were drugs in the package?
You : No, I never touch drugs:
Prosecutor : So may it please the court, I am presenting the defendant with a Exhibit A, a copy of his bank statement, could you please read out the third entry?
You : <<insert name of Bitcoin provider here>>
Prosecutor : Are you aware that Bitcoins are the sole currency of Silk Road, an online marketplace used to buy narcotics?
You : Oh no, I'm shocked I had no idea!
Prosecutor: What then did you buy Bitcoins for if you didn't order any drugs?
You : Oh er well... there are plenty of legal uses for Bitcoin... I was ordering a T-shirt, yes that's it, a T-Shirt!
Prosecutor: So which website was it that you ordered the T-shirt from?
You: Oh erm, well I can't quite remember...
Jury shakes heads in disapproval and hope you had the good sense to pack some KY Jelly as you'll need it real soon.
...Need I go on?
This conversation wouldn't happen if you were in this situation and had bought your BTC using cash. This doesn't necessarily mean you'd get off the hook but how would you account for your purchase of Bitcoins under these circumstances? Do you really think you could persuade a jury of your peers that there was an innocent explanation?
V.
In the UK possession is a crime. There is no defense. If they catch you with a parcel of drugs then that is possession. They dont need any kind of bitcoin history to make the charge stick. The fact that they have caught you with drugs in your possession is all the evidence they need to make a possession charge stick. They do not need to prove that you bought them, they just need to catch you with them in your possession.
Do you really think you could persuade a jury of your peers that there was an innocent explanation?
V.
No I do not think I could convince a jury that there was an innocent explanation, with or without anonomized bitcoins. Im mature enough to realise that if I end up in court as a result of a purchase.. Im screwed because they dont even need to prove I bought the stuff, they just have to show that it was in my possession.
-
Sorry Gustono, I really don't mean to be a know it all, it's just there was this one guy who got my goat as he was confusing newer people by the forums by telling them disk encryption wasn't necessary.
Anyway, on to your dilemma - take a gander at:
https://www.torproject.org/docs/proxychain.html.en
Let me know if you have any questions.
V.
Yes they do, but there's always a risk of MtGox declining and asking for ID as well as the effort of accessing it via a proxy or using a computer+network unrelated to you.
Vlad you seem to be a fountain of information at the moment so would you like to explain how to use a proxy for free with Tor for a "Thank"? :D
You took it the wrong way, I appreciate your fountain of knowledge! I'll take a look at that link some other time, thank you for it.
Oh and Duckman of course possession of illegal drugs is illegal and they can charge you for it. It's the same in any country.
However, you cannot be charged for being sent drugs, unless there is evidence to back up you were expecting them. Ideally we would all have a place we can store our drugs away from our receiving adress to counter-act this, and never to open a parcel as soon as you get it.
-
However, you cannot be charged for being sent drugs, unless there is evidence to back up you were expecting them. Ideally we would all have a place we can store our drugs away from our receiving adress to counter-act this, and never to open a parcel as soon as you get it.
As soon as the drugs arrive at your home, you are in possession.
Whilst in transit, you are not in possession, but at some point they have to arrive.
-
I went into this in some detail in another thread (Please see: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=9543.msg189546#msg189546) but essentially it boils down to Possession itself being the offence under the Misuse of Drugs Act - taking ownership of a package is generally accepted to entail taking ownership of its contents therefore if you accept contraband into your home or sign for them at a postal depot, you can be arrested.
If you try to plead ignorance i.e innocent possession this is a defence but it is what is known as a rebuttable presumption i.e the onus will be upon you to demonstrate you were ignorant as to the contents of the package. Ultimately it will be for a jury to decide.
V.
However, you cannot be charged for being sent drugs, unless there is evidence to back up you were expecting them. Ideally we would all have a place we can store our drugs away from our receiving adress to counter-act this, and never to open a parcel as soon as you get it.
As soon as the drugs arrive at your home, you are in possession.
Whilst in transit, you are not in possession, but at some point they have to arrive.