Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: Joeyjojojr on May 12, 2012, 05:38 am
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Just looking for information here. This isnt a post to spread fear or paranoia. I was just wondering if anyone has any knowledge on this subject. Im really interested in US law, but if you know about the laws of your country that would be pretty informative as well.
Heres the made up scenario- A buyer is arrested by postal police after a package of, lets say 1 gram of cocaine, is opened by the post office and a controlled delivery is made. The police confiscate his computer and find clear evidence of his purchase on SR.
This buyer has never been arrested and is a hardworking tax paying citizen. If the judge wanted to make an example and "throw the book" at him or her, what kind of jail time would he/she face?
Thanks for any informative answers.
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If it was something as small as a gram, the buyer could probably fall back on the "it was for personal use" defense and get off with some community service/drug treatment program. I doubt that they would get any flack from the mail aspect of it since the buyer was not the one sending it in the mail. Just speculating here though...
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Thats how i feel as well, but im looking for more than just speculation.
Maybe a lawyer or someone in the criminal justice field has more info that could help?
If i got busted down the street with a gram of C, I know I would be arrested and what the possible outcome of the trial would be (community service, drug treatment, probation, etc). I just dont know what would happen to me here because ordering through the mail is a federal offense.
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This is a quote from a lawyer in Cali "This is a federal crime and will be prosecuted in federal court. The first offense is punished as a misdemeanor with a max. sentence of 1 year and / or $1000.00 fine". Therefore, it's probably more than I first assumed.
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The police confiscate his computer and find clear evidence of his purchase on SR.
Don't do that. All of your Silk Road data and transactions should use an encrypted external drive at the very least. Keep it in your garage when not it use. I am old school and would go so far as to recommend disguising a degausser into the door frame of your computer room.
If you are busted for a single gram in the mail simply insist that you have no idea why someone that you don't even know sent it to you. They are not going to bother with a search warrant for a single gram. Now if they are looking at you for something else they may well leverage that single gram into just enough more to pull a warrant.
Also be aware that, unlike on teevee, the vast majority of warrants are specific. The only way they get a "toss the house" warrant is if you are a suspected serial killer or terrorist. Or a suspected illegal music downloader; don't get me started on that. 99.9% of judges will NOT give a "confiscate the computer" warrant for just a gram in the mail. If they were to follow a seller back and forth to the post office for a few weeks and grab all the packages they probably would get his computer.
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This is a quote from a lawyer in Cali "This is a federal crime and will be prosecuted in federal court. The first offense is punished as a misdemeanor with a max. sentence of 1 year and / or $1000.00 fine". Therefore, it's probably more than I first assumed.
Good info. Can i ask where you got this quote from?
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These also seems to be standard answers from lawyers "Possible charges include possession and illegal use of the US mail. It will depend on what agency brings the charges." and "The answer to this question depends on the jurisdiction that prosecutes. If the state courts prosecute then the punishment will probably be fairly mild ranging from a large fine to a smaller fine without jail. (possibly a drug program) If this offense is prosecuted in federal court by a United States Attorney, then the punishment could be a couple of years in federal prison. (it is unlikely that she will actually get years in federal prison unless this one shipment is only the tip of the iceberg) If this one shipment is the only shipment ever, then [they] should be able to get by without doing any jail time"
http://www.lawqa.com/qa/what-are-penalties-for-receiving-marijuana-in-mail2
Has to do with marijuana but goes along the same lines.
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Ill be honest. My computer knowledge is limited. I found this place following the steps posted online in forums that anyone can access. Im sure if, god forbid, my shit gets raided and computer confiscated id be fucked, but im also sure im not the only one here.
I like to get high and feel it is no ones business or "duty" to fuck with my way of life. That being said I would like to know what the real risks of all this are so I dont end up in jail for 20 years if the worst should happen.
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Ive been reading a lot of posts here and have learned quite a bit about security. I was thinking about doing a DBAN just to be safe and running SR using a yubi key or secure USB. I really dont know the first thing about either though, besides the benefits, and im real busy between work and play. The more i research, the more I learn about the importance of security and i dont want to be that asshole sitting in federal prison because i like to get high and put my faith in a vendor who doesnt package his shit properly.
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I'm confused as to how little you know with 108 posts! Honestly, if you somehow did get linked to the purchase on SR, bravo, you are a fucking idiot. This is down to common sense but it depends whether you're buying personal or bulk. I presume you don't plan on buying quarter kilos of MDMA yet :) so the best advice I can give is;
1. Learn how to PGP encrypt.
2. Pay with Bitcoin - this detaches you from the payment as much as possible.
3. Get letters - not packages which you have to sign for! They are not going to do a controlled delivery for a letter no matter how important you think you may be, it's not worth LE's time for letters! If you're stupidly paranoid, don't open the letter until night time or the next day.
4. If law enforcement do come knocking, don't answer your fucking door and remain silent, unless they busted a seller with your address stored, you're fine.
5. Fucking enjoy those drugs because I think you need them :P.
jabba
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I'm confused as to how little you know with 108 posts! Honestly, if you somehow did get linked to the purchase on SR, bravo, you are a fucking idiot. This is down to common sense but it depends whether you're buying personal or bulk. I presume you don't plan on buying quarter kilos of MDMA yet :) so the best advice I can give is;
1. Learn how to PGP encrypt.
2. Pay with Bitcoin - this detaches you from the payment as much as possible.
3. Get letters - not packages which you have to sign for! They are not going to do a controlled delivery for a letter no matter how important you think you may be, it's not worth LE's time for letters! If you're stupidly paranoid, don't open the letter until night time or the next day.
4. If law enforcement do come knocking, don't answer your fucking door and remain silent, unless they busted a seller with your address stored, you're fine.
5. Fucking enjoy those drugs because I think you need them :P.
jabba
Thanks for the info douche.
1- I know PGP it took me all of 1 day of research to learn how to use it, and thats the only way i send my addy before ordering.
2- I obviously use BTC or i couldnt place orders here. As far as acquiring them goes, if you read any of the info posted here on the SR Forums it is getting increasingly more sketchy as sites like dwolla/mt. gox are requiring ids and ss# due to the fact that Sr is accountable for the majority of BTC purchases.
3- I never mentioned signing for a package, nor would i ever do that. Im not a moron and wont address anymore accusations of such.
4- The purpose of this post was simply because im trying to prevent LE from ever getting that opportunity and thats why i posted this. And if they do bust a retarded seller then what? You posted absolutely no information of value besides i have nothing to worry about if it doesnt happen, thanks again for that.
5- Thanks for the shitty advice, and believe me when i say i will most definitely continue to enjoy my drug use.
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As a child might say, I may be a douche but at least I'm not a fucking idiot. If you didn't notice, swimfan answered your question to the best of anyone's knowledge. I might also add that buying BTC is LEGAL...No legislation is in place to allow LE to investigate people who purchase BTC either...
jabba
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Ok, i admitted that I didnt know much about computer security and that i am new to the whole scene. What kind of satisfaction do you get from calling me an idiot unless you are in fact a child yourself?
Im far from an idiot btw. My computer knowledge is limited, and instead of just accepting that im safe and this place is foolproof I asked some questions. Fuck it i have no regrets. I also stated i was looking for informative posts and yes swimfan definitely came through in that respect. As for your post you provided absolutely nothing that is relevant or important to me, and then even went as far to praise another poster for telling me like it is. Good job.
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Ok, i admitted that I didnt know much about computer security and that i am new to the whole scene. What kind of satisfaction do you get from calling me an idiot unless you are in fact a child yourself?
Im far from an idiot btw. My computer knowledge is limited, and instead of just accepting that im safe and this place is foolproof I asked some questions. Fuck it i have no regrets. I also stated i was looking for informative posts and yes swimfan definitely came through in that respect. As for your post you provided absolutely nothing that is relevant or important to me, and then even went as far to praise another poster for telling me like it is. Good job.
Look I'm not going to start arguments. Look at what swimfan and krazy said, then compare what krazy and I have said, you'll find that they were getting at the same thing, now go back to living your normal paranoid life.
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I did and I was done with the post. Swimfan and Krazy answered my questions and brought my paranoia level down. You were the one who reignited the whole thing. If you didnt want to argue you wouldnt have accused me of being an idiot.
I stated clearly that I didnt know much about the real threats of using this site. Obviously jail time is a real threat to anyone who buys drugs. The whole online aspect has so many unknown variables to me and others so i thought. There are hundreds of posts about how great this place is and how to avoid trouble. My question was simply what would happen if someone did get caught. My only purpose of starting this post was to get some good info from experienced deepnet users and possibly some individuals who knew a little more about the criminal justice system in general.
So in hindsight maybe it wasnt the greatest topic, but I feel a little better knowing that IF the worst happened I wouldnt be facing 20 years in a shithole. Thanks swimfan and krazy for your help and responses.
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Well to actually answer your question based on the lawyer's responses (I'm not actually from US), it depends on STATE, QUANTITY and CLASS OF DRUG! If you pay by BTC and it's a first time seizure then you're only real concern is in your ability to say "I would like a lawyer please"!
They're not going to seize a lot of domestic orders because nearly everyone uses USPS and they demand a search warrant for packages to be opened by officials. USPS have a lot of SR customers! :P
1st time seizure *Prosecution varies per state* - highly unlikely the person would be prosecuted, possible if a package contained a ridiculous quantity which required signature. Anyone could have sent the drugs to your address and then you would be unfairly trialed...If you do get a package seized, SWITCH ADDRESSES!
2nd time seizure *Prosecution varies per state* Quantity and class a huge issue again
Basically, any time a letter gets seized, move on, different address.
COMMON SENSE FOR THE WIN!
Jabba
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A person i know very close got busted while receiving a package and thats exactly what you need to watch out for while receiving a package :
1.Package took longer then usual about a month to come...
2.Tracking numbers has never showed that it was inbound or outbound of customs ,nothing showing that it hit USA
3.The first update in USA showed not NY ,but some other random city that was not in the way of package and it was some kind of centre,NOT A USPS SORTING FACILITY.
4.IT was not the regular mailman when they brought the package ...it will never be your mailman delivering package...so know your mailman ,it was an agent.
5.the mail truck was parked on the opposite side of the road pretty far away from the house, giving a lot of space for the police cars to immediately pull in and make arrest while the person was signing for the package ..
hope this information was helpfull for you .
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If your in the US. and have no criminal backround most states have a pretrial intervention program which prevents conviction. Probably get 1 yr probation and have to pee in a cup every month. Some states now suspend your drivers license.
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TRUECRYPT! There's no reason not to be using it. Also it speeds up your hard drive. And IIRC I remember reading about some case where I guy wouldn't give up his TC password citing the 5th Amendment. They held him for months but in the long run he wasn't convicted. Too lazy to look up the info at the moment.
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Well, if you really want to get paranoid... technically, I think anyone who buys on SR, and possibly even anyone participating in the forums here, could be brought up on federal drug trafficking conspiracy charges. We're guilty by not reporting to the government everything we know about this international drug operation that we know about.
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Well, if you really want to get paranoid... technically, I think anyone who buys on SR, and possibly even anyone participating in the forums here, could be brought up on federal drug trafficking conspiracy charges. We're guilty by not reporting to the government everything we know about this international drug operation that we know about.
I have no idea what you're talking about...
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What kind of legal troubles would a buyer face if the USPS intercepted a small amount of narcotics? That's a good question ~~ my guess is that most SR buyers are ordering small amounts, so the Federal charges of using the mail to transport an illegal substance might be greater than the actual charge for possession.
I wish we could get some reliable answers about what might happen in this case. There have been many reports of what happens when large quantities of narcotics are sent through the mail, but that can't be the same response for a gram (or less).
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Very small amounts are rarely intercepted. Letters are far safer than packages, and smaller packages are far safer than larger packages. Customs and USPI are not looking as hard at things that are clearly not large shipments of drugs or money or bombs. Sending slower helps a lot as well, packages are scrutinized to an extent that correlates positively with shipping speed and package weight. At the extreme safety levels for each of these, interceptions that are not based on intelligence are extremely rare, even in places like Australia. This might change to an extent as customs and USPI learn more about swarming, they have already recognized that traffickers intentionally break shipments up into tiny groups of less weight to increase the chance of getting large amounts through customs, so they might try to catch that more. But they are probably also limited by the amount of the mail, if a letter doesn't stick out at all from the average type, and dogs can't hit on what is inside of it or it is perfectly vacuum sealed with no trace contamination, I think they will have a hell of a time to detect it when it is in its initial inspection to know that they want to do more time consuming testing on it.
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I did talk to U.S. lawyer, who was retained for non-related issue, but she does criminal work. Even in general terms, she said there was just too many variables to give me any kind of assurance at all. Her advice was just as you expect, which is not to say anything, and to call her, and make bail first, the go from there. What little I could explain--and that is *very* difficult, as TOR and bitcoins alone, would take hours--she thought it was funny, and yes, would make a great case. Basically: "It's not my dope: why do you say it's my dope?" and take it from there.
In other words, nobody knows, man, nobody knows....depends on what, when, where and who's doing the catching, and how much you talk....me, I don't know nothin' ...
Best wishes, I know there are tough issues, and we all worry to one degree or another, but I"m always suspicious of anybody who claims to have actual answers as I haven't seen or heard of--including the ongoing TFM case--any case that deals with TOR and btc., and even simple possesion has a thousand different answers....
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Hey guys I understand your concerns. We cant really say much, but I hope this beings closure
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=18381.150
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My own extensive experience in a couple of these areas has taught me to be seriously skeptical of any advice received on an online forum, particularly one as cutting edge as this one. Nobody knows what will happen to any buyer if they actually get cracked. There are way too many vagaries as to make the question itself meaningless. I don't mean this in an insulting way, either: we all would like reassurance that we are safe, but I don't accept that anybody on here can give that reassurance.
I mean, how determined are these cops going to be, and what county, what state, and what country they are in will affect what they do, and how we *think* we will act (I don't talk to no stinking coppers!) and how we actually act are two way different things. My suggestion--and I've done this--is that you talk to a lawyer in your locale, and ask her these very questions, and you might be surprised at the answers you get...I'd have a local bondsman's name available, and the number of an attorney who might be interested in this strange new way of doing illegal business...but I wouldn't make book on any info you get on here. Nobody knows, it's all 'wishful thinking.'
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People who say buying btc is legal so you have nothing to worry about are the biggest idiots. It is legal to send western union too but that isn't going to save your ass if you send a wire to Pablo Escobar now is it?
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People who say buying btc is legal so you have nothing to worry about are the biggest idiots. It is legal to send western union too but that isn't going to save your ass if you send a wire to Pablo Escobar now is it?
Well said Kmfkewm - also I very much doubt claiming plausible denial of packages you receive would get you very far. In the UK at least it would be considered what's called a "rebuttable presumption" i.e the burden of proof would be on the defence to show a person was ignorant of the package's contents - generally speaking receiving a package amounts to accepting its contents though of course that's for a jury to decide.
Would be interested to hear from any savvy people in the US on where the law stands in the Home of the Brave.
V.
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People who say buying btc is legal so you have nothing to worry about are the biggest idiots. It is legal to send western union too but that isn't going to save your ass if you send a wire to Pablo Escobar now is it?
Well said Kmfkewm - also I very much doubt claiming plausible denial of packages you receive would get you very far. In the UK at least it would be considered what's called a "rebuttable presumption" i.e the burden of proof would be on the defence to show a person was ignorant of the package's contents - generally speaking receiving a package amounts to accepting its contents though of course that's for a jury to decide.
Would be interested to hear from any savvy people in the US on where the law stands in the Home of the Brave.
V.
This doesnt pertain to the US if the package isnt signed for and just dropped off in your mailbox, maybe front door. In the US the burden of proof is on the State. I remember a story about a man receiving a kilo of coke, he signed for it and the cops burst in 5 mins later. It had a different last name, and to my knowledge he got convinced. For some reason if your sign for the package it is easier to get a conviction. As for going to P.O. boxes and picking up packages that have been intercepted (usually large amount) its harder for your lawyer to use Plausible Deniability. Look up in other forums about Plausible Deniability in the US im sure you will kind a lot of information.
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Well to actually answer your question based on the lawyer's responses (I'm not actually from US), it depends on STATE, QUANTITY and CLASS OF DRUG! If you pay by BTC and it's a first time seizure then you're only real concern is in your ability to say "I would like a lawyer please"!
They're not going to seize a lot of domestic orders because nearly everyone uses USPS and they demand a search warrant for packages to be opened by officials. USPS have a lot of SR customers! :P
1st time seizure *Prosecution varies per state* - highly unlikely the person would be prosecuted, possible if a package contained a ridiculous quantity which required signature. Anyone could have sent the drugs to your address and then you would be unfairly trialed...If you do get a package seized, SWITCH ADDRESSES!
2nd time seizure *Prosecution varies per state* Quantity and class a huge issue again
Basically, any time a letter gets seized, move on, different address.
COMMON SENSE FOR THE WIN!
Jabba
lol, can you change your tone?
you're talking to him like he asked a stupid question, it's actualyl a very good question
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Well to actually answer your question based on the lawyer's responses (I'm not actually from US), it depends on STATE, QUANTITY and CLASS OF DRUG! If you pay by BTC and it's a first time seizure then you're only real concern is in your ability to say "I would like a lawyer please"!
They're not going to seize a lot of domestic orders because nearly everyone uses USPS and they demand a search warrant for packages to be opened by officials. USPS have a lot of SR customers! :P
1st time seizure *Prosecution varies per state* - highly unlikely the person would be prosecuted, possible if a package contained a ridiculous quantity which required signature. Anyone could have sent the drugs to your address and then you would be unfairly trialed...If you do get a package seized, SWITCH ADDRESSES!
2nd time seizure *Prosecution varies per state* Quantity and class a huge issue again
Basically, any time a letter gets seized, move on, different address.
COMMON SENSE FOR THE WIN!
Jabba
lol, can you change your tone?
you're talking to him like he asked a stupid question, it's actualyl a very good question
Jabbathedouche can slob on my knob. He added nothing of value to this post. I stopped responding to that troll a long time ago.
A lot of good info here though, so thanks to all who posted with something of value.
The police confiscate his computer and find clear evidence of his purchase on SR.
Don't do that. All of your Silk Road data and transactions should use an encrypted external drive at the very least. Keep it in your garage when not it use. I am old school and would go so far as to recommend disguising a degausser into the door frame of your computer room.
I have seen law enforcment materials where they advise officers to carry a pocket compass to detect degaussers such as you describe.
If you are busted for a single gram in the mail simply insist that you have no idea why someone that you don't even know sent it to you. They are not going to bother with a search warrant for a single gram. Now if they are looking at you for something else they may well leverage that single gram into just enough more to pull a warrant.
I suspect you're right on that.
Also be aware that, unlike on teevee, the vast majority of warrants are specific. The only way they get a "toss the house" warrant is if you are a suspected serial killer or terrorist. Or a suspected illegal music downloader; don't get me started on that. 99.9% of judges will NOT give a "confiscate the computer" warrant for just a gram in the mail. If they were to follow a seller back and forth to the post office for a few weeks and grab all the packages they probably would get his computer.
Agreed.
Guru
Whats a degausser?
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Degausser is a device that can generate a magnetic field for degaussing magnetic storage media. I.E. A device that damages a mechanical drive beyond recovery .Or that what it suppose to do . Does not work on SSD's, though .
Ok, so you could use it to wipe a hard drive clean in case of a raid then? Sounds pretty sweet.
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I don't think anybody really knows: this is still just too new an area, and we dont' know even which area of LE will be tackling it. Until a major bust goes down--and hears hoping it doesn't--we just have to guess, and I"ve heard all kiinds of shit: some are obviously more paranoid than others...but of course, they would just see themselves as cautious.
I see it as a very hard court case to prosecute, if they just go after buyers...it's hard to link a specific person with a tor website they order on....and fuck, anybody can put anything in the mail...and can you imagine trying to explain 'bitcoins' to a jury? I mean, you have to prove it's 'cash' in the first place, and then prove some nameless entity is really the person LE says he is...etc, etc. Main good advice is not to talk to cops, know your bondsman's phone number, and get a lawyer and fight it...but LE is up against quite a bit, so we'll just have to see...
I try to be cautious without loosing any sleep over it. The simple libertarian fact is that it's my fucking body and to make all this shit illegal is why our prisons are bursting at the seams....
We'll just have to see...no matter how knowledgeable some of our 'experts' seem, it's just opinion...nobody on here knows squat.