Quote from: Kappacino on June 18, 2012, 06:49 pmQuote from: vlad1m1r on June 18, 2012, 06:26 pmQuote from: Kappacino on June 18, 2012, 06:12 pmMarx point was that communism was something that had to arise naturally, it had to evolve by itself. It couldn't be forced upon the people.Idealists don't take one thing into account... we're primates. Shit will never be perfect.Btw Lim, I don't know shit about economics but have been trying to understand why these countries are in the shit, could you sum up in laymens terms why this shit is going down and what the source of the problem is in the first place?Do you mean in Greece?Part of the problem was caused by rampant tax evasion. I remember being on holiday and asking a Doctor if he took credit cards only to be laughed at in the face - cash only.For reasons not immediately clear to me, after Greece joined the Euro it began to live beyond its means to a whole new level. Public sector wages and benefits skyrocketed and rather than cut spending they actually increased it by borrowing large amounts of money from the IMF.The widening gap between their increased expenditure and reduced income (known as a "deficit" in the trade) wasn't exactly helped by the SubPrime crisis.This then left them in a position of having to repay debts with smaller and smaller sums of revenue - hence the desperate attempts of the government to put the toothpaste back in the tube by scaling back public spending, reducing the pay of public sector workers, lowering the minimum wage and so on.Why are Lim and I all for it? Simply because the alternative i.e defaulting on the loan is too horrific to contemplate - no respectable bank will grant credit to the government and its citizens and therefore any attempts to stimulate the economy is unlikely to succeed. Needless to say spiralling unemployment won't help the situation either with no consumers to buy products/services within the country.The solution in my humble opinion is to focus on the fact that they're in a recession and that the recovery package Greece has agreed is contingent on the austerity measures already implemented (and a few more besides which we won't list here!) V.What would you say to the idea that if Greece left the euro, after a brief period of difficulty, tourism would increase, investment as well as innovation would increase as people made products in order to beat expensive imports etc in order to start on a slow road to recovery, yet if they stay in the euro, there will only be more bailouts (Spain/Italy/Ireland etc) and ultimately this will lead to exhausting the monetary supply of Europe as well as causing a continent wide financial crisis?I'm not educated enough to have an informed view on this, I'm just wondering what your take is on thatSee http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9334125/What-would-happen-to-Greece-if-it-left-the-euro.htmlV.