Quote from: Limetless on May 05, 2012, 11:27 amQuote from: kmfkewm on May 05, 2012, 09:09 amQuote from: Limetless on May 04, 2012, 04:25 pmQuote from: kmfkewm on May 04, 2012, 05:39 amStep One: Use a mix so the coins can't be tied to any specific drug deal by the time you cash them outStep Two: Use anonymous ATM cards to cash them out so you don't need to explain the $100,000's that just landed in your bank account. I am pretty sure some of the cards can cash out $1,000 a day so get 100 of them and you could technically cash out 100k in a day :P, one vendor I know has like 8 of them all anonymous so thats ~$56,000 a week in cash out potential with none of it tied to a IRL identity other than the fake / stolen ones used to obtain the cards.Another option is mix + cash out to western union and pick up with a fake ID Another option is mix + cash out to another E-currency like pecunix or LR, lots of exchangers for those will cash out to WU for you plus it adds another layer of obfuscation. I still have yet to hear of anyone who uses pecunix + offshore exchangers being traced via a financial trail , it isn't bulletproof by any means but it is still a lot better than paypal, the pigs will need to get records from pecunix + records from the exchanger and that usually involves two different international jurisdictions. Pick the exchangers wire up with a fake ID and it makes it all the harder, now it takes three international jurisdictions and they will end up at a dead end with nothing but CCTV footage if they are lucky. There are two distinct goals, the first is to avoid being traced via a financial trail. Correctly implemented and heavily used mixes do an excellent job of achieving this, better than anything else, especially blind mixes. The second goal is to avoid having unaccounted for money showing up under your name, and risking money laundering charges by being tied to a mix. This can be achieved in a few ways, anonymous ATM cards, anonymous / fake ID wire pick ups , layering traditional E-currency accounts / exchangers in between your bank account and the mix (less secure than the other options but better than nothing, also only good for hiding that you used a mixing service not from hiding that you obtained money) etc. Doing either of these things is good and some of them actually help achieve both goals (for example, cashing out with an anonymous ATM will help avoid you being traced through financial trails and it also hides that you obtained money, even if you don't use a mix or anything else), but using both sorts of technique together means you are golden. What you don't want to be doing is cashing in via a bank account under your own name, using your real IP address at the exchanger, and then sending the bitcoins right to a vendor without mixing them. You also don't want to be taking your coins from SR and then with your real IP address making a deal with an exchanger to get money in your real bank account for them. Doing that is hardly better than using Paypal, although as long as you bounce Bitcoins around a few accounts that are not linked on the network layer you should obtain plausible deniability in an evidence context, but that does fuck all at preventing intelligence from indicating your involvement.Putting anything into Western Union is suicide because at some point you have to pick it up. Doesn't mean shit if you use a false name because if LE become alerted to you they can pick up your face on cameras. Anonymous debit cards are the same because the vast majority of ATMs have cameras in them so again, there is your face.If you want to cash out large amounts you need to get a bit more creative than this I'm afraid. If you really want to do it you should never have to physically touch the money or touch something that you have to withdraw the money out on. And fuck me sideways you should NEVER keep your money in the country you live in. Not trying to rain on your parade here by the way Kmfkewm, your methods above WOULD work for a while but are just too insecure to do large transactions repeatedly over a long period. You need to think outside the box a bit more to do this. Also you have failed to achieve the fundamental goal, you haven't actually washed any money yet. All you have done is done a few hard-to-trace transfers. What happens if the pigs kick in the door and you have great wedges of cash lying around that you can't explain? You can't tell them you won the lottery or had a good night down the betting shop.Well they have worked for many years for some pretty major vendors so I think that says something. Never touching the money, never touching anything that cashes out the money, that is hardly practical for most people if it is even possible to do and spend money at the same time. The goal is for it to be anonymized by the time you pick it up, and then you pick it up with these methods simply to avoid having it tied to your name, so theoretically law enforcement never gets to the camera and you avoid ever giving them a reason to pull footage of the cash out. There are ways to cash out at ATM without being identifiable though, although some are fairly sketchy in themselves like wearing masks. People get away with robbing people at gun point in front of ATMs though, so its not a stretch to think you can get away with disguising your face for a short period of time while you cash out your own money at one, and again law enforcement are theoretically never going to make it back to the cash out point to pull footage anyway. Western union is much harder to adequately disguise yourself at, but how long these places keep video for varies if you find a place with a 24 hour loop you will be hoping that law enforcement can't get to it before the footage is overwritten or that they never get to it anyway, knowing how long the loop is for is tricky though and these days it isn't expensive to keep months worth of video footage. I think you are confusing the reason to cash out with an ATM or fake ID wire though, it isn't necessarily to make it harder for you to be traced (although it certainly is beneficial here as well) but rather to make it so there is not a record of you having the money, or you using a mixing service. By the time you cash out it should already be either virtually impossible for LE to follow the financial trial from their dealings with you to your cash out point (as is the case with proper mixes), or at least very difficult (as is the case with multi international jurisdiction layering). But even if it is impossible for them to follow the money from them sending it to you cashing it out, you don't want to suddenly have unaccounted for deposits of thousands of dollars showing up under your name, and you don't want to be tied to a mixing service either if you can help it. That is where the anonymous ATM cards and fake ID for wire pick ups come into play, although they both do also aid in untraceability. There are two types of money laundering, the first type aims to make transactions untraceable, so law enforcement can not trace their money back to you. The second type aims to disguise illicit profits and licit profits. It can be seen as a multi step process really, since both compliment each other. Mixes make the money untraceable, cashing out with ATM card or WU with fake information takes care of part of the second goal of disguising illicit profits as licit. You can spend quite a bit of cash fairly secretly and never risk being identified as living outside of your means, buying fancy cars and expensive houses and such are a different story though. I know a few techniques for disguising illicit funds as licit, but this is an area where I think it is more important to not discuss the techniques publicly (versus making transactions untraceable to you from LE perspective, and not drawing attention to yourself by suddenly having ten thousand dollars deposited to your bank account straight from bitcoin-money-laundering.org). You will likely need to have a legitimate front business to pull this off for large amounts, is the most that I will say on the matter. And again, you don't need to legitimize all of your money, if you spend a hundred bucks eating at a fancy restaurant there is no need to spend clean money that you paid taxes on. Some people employ bums or kids to do cash out for them and then they get the cash handed to them in a location that isn't under surveillance, then pay them like a hundred bucks for their trouble (assuming they hit the maximum limit on a bunch of anonymous debit cards or something, to make it affordable). This risks being robbed, but they have tricks to make this unlikely as well. This has always seemed too exploitative for my tastes though.No offense here but you don't need to try and school me on what I know inside out mate especially when it comes to ML. I trained as an accountant and have done corporate structuring IRL so I do know my shit. And I really don't care if it has worked for other people, doesn't mean it's the most secure and by that logic you are basically saying that nothing can ever be bettered? What kind of silly standing point is that? It's ridiculous. And also cashing out at WU or a cash machine doesn't wash money at all because you can't account for where it originated from. That's all there is to it. With my system you create accountability that properly washes funds and takes them out of the system and makes it exempt from audit. Nothing that you have suggested actually achieves this. Also hiring kids and bums? Are you kidding me?As much as I welcome everyone's thoughts I have to say Lim has it right - I've worked before with the Financial Services Commission here in the UK (particularly the Isle of Man) and I can tell you that there's no way in which a cash machine can legitimise your funds - of course it can make them easier to conceal but ATM card providers still have to abide by the same compliance methods as any bank so loading 20,000 across three cards can still raise red flags - indeed they're well aware of this loophole and without going into details they are not overly concerned about it for exactly the reasons Lim has said - being caught with several ATM cards in your house with a combined value of twice your annual income on paper is just as incriminating as finding a big pile of cash in your basement.As kmfkewm says, for smaller amounts this isn't overly important as you can simply use cash for your living expenses and leave your legitimate salary in your bank account (I use this method to pay my rent for instance by depositing cash from various schemes I have on SR) and leaving my whiter than white income untouched. For larger amounts as Lim says this doesn't amount to money laundering in any sense of the word - indeed in the nature of things laundered money cannot be concealed as it needs to seem legitimate.Certain businesses lend themselves better than others to be a legitimate front for money laundering but once again I don't really want to discuss my flavour of the month in public - of course anyone who is interested in investing and receiving laundered funds in the UK is welcome to send me a message but please note I only am accepting smaller sums at this stage - any of the major players out there, do speak to Lim - I also work in finance and it's very clear to me he knows his stuff.V.