Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: rake on April 30, 2012, 10:27 pm
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A few months ago I wrote up my support for the banning of vendors who demand early finalization for any reason. Tony76 stomped his feet and said that vendors need FE for "cash flow issues" and he personally knew other major vendors who would walk if FE was banned.
I called him out on this as there could possibly be no way that he has cash flow issues with the amount of product he was moving. (Not long after this I started getting -1 ratings from someone too). True top-tier vendors like Tetravort don't have cash flow issues and Tet himself supports SR in its entirety and refuses to work outside escrow.
One compromise I did suggest was for SR to become a bank and allow vendors to borrow against their escrow equity. If a vendor is truly having cash flow issues then this loan assistance would help them and also allow buyers to stay protected for their entire sale transaction.
Now that SR (I refuse to call him DPR, I've been around longer than that) has implemented escrow loans it's time to ban early finalization outright.
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voted!
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Look, some top vendors really do have a lot of cash flow and they need to have early finalization to make sure they get their money. The example I always use is Ivory. I buy some of his amazing MDMA once a month or so, and I always finalize early. I have no problem with it. He DESERVES that because he's been around for a long, long time and he's built trust. Tony was only around 3 months. That was our mistake. We should have seen this coming. A hotshot shows up out of nowhere, builds to #1 in just a couple of months, we should have seen the sale as his big opportunity but we didn't. But do not ban early finalization outright. If a buyer is uncomfortable with it, they can shop elsewhere. What happened to the free market?
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As a large vendor on other sites the only reason I dont vend here is the cash flow situation that any legitimate large scale vendor would encounter with the SR model. Its a safe and secure model if everyone follows it but buyers must be weary that any true large vendor couldnt possibly fill all the orders they take in at some point using BTC and escrow.
Tony76 and others are all time bombs waiting to go off because the packing, message answering, shipping, btc cashouts etc are all far too cumbersome to remain here for long periods vending.
Tony setup an offsite to continue his biz which is the best you can hope for out of these large vendors ... the worst is obviously the far too frequent smash and grab retirement parties these guys have at the expense of SR buyers.
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Look, some top vendors really do have a lot of cash flow and they need to have early finalization to make sure they get their money. The example I always use is Ivory. I buy some of his amazing MDMA once a month or so, and I always finalize early. I have no problem with it. He DESERVES that because he's been around for a long, long time and he's built trust. Tony was only around 3 months. That was our mistake. We should have seen this coming. A hotshot shows up out of nowhere, builds to #1 in just a couple of months, we should have seen the sale as his big opportunity but we didn't. But do not ban early finalization outright. If a buyer is uncomfortable with it, they can shop elsewhere. What happened to the free market?
IvoryUK and I have known each other for quite a while (I got so off my face on some sample orders of his purple MDMA) and he only asks for FE as a favour, he does not and will not demand it from buyers. I'm not saying that buyers cannot "CHOOSE" to finalize early, what I'm saing is vendors should not be allowed to "DEMAND" early finalization to ship an order.
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Fair enough. I think there needs to be some middle ground. Trusted vendors should be able to require early finalization from new buyers to prevent scammers. But yeah, some system should be put in place to stop another Tony situation happening. Maybe specifically ban early finalization around major sales like that because the potential for scamming is so high. New buyers wouldn't be allowed in to the sales either, that protects the vendors too. If you want to get in on that kind of deal, you have to be around for a while. So new buyers have to finalize early by only using long-standing, trusted vendors, and vendors can't demand early finalization from someone that has over a certain number of purchases. It all stays in escrow when possible, and we make sure this doesn't happen again. That sounds fair.
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I believe some form of cap on total FE's at 1 time would be smart.
Would a guy like Tony consider running off with only $10000 if a cap of that amount was in place ? He would likely have left SR still because of the workload but he would not have scammed buyers here as it would ruin his side biz he had setup. He may have scammed there ... but at that point its a 1-1 outside SR transaction and that cant be controlled.
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I believe some form of cap on total FE's at 1 time would be smart.
+1111111
Brilliant idea. Maybe make the limit 10 or something like that. Tony definitely wouldn't have pulled this off if he was gonna make like $2000 tops. This should definitely be instituted ASAP.
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Definitely a cap to prevent mass scam retirement like what apparently just happened.
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As a large vendor on other sites the only reason I dont vend here is the cash flow situation that any legitimate large scale vendor would encounter with the SR model. Its a safe and secure model if everyone follows it but buyers must be weary that any true large vendor couldnt possibly fill all the orders they take in at some point using BTC and escrow.
Tony76 and others are all time bombs waiting to go off because the packing, message answering, shipping, btc cashouts etc are all far too cumbersome to remain here for long periods vending.
Tony setup an offsite to continue his biz which is the best you can hope for out of these large vendors ... the worst is obviously the far too frequent smash and grab retirement parties these guys have at the expense of SR buyers.
I've said it before, if you are a simple street-seller, you'll struggle to make a profit on SR. However if you are even just one level higher on the IRL scene dealing on SR is more profitable as all you have to do is "employ" some packers and sell at "retail" rates.
I've never had a problem with cashing out BTC and I've even had to comply with money laundering laws as well. Hmm if that is such a big issue for vendors maybe I should start that as a service.
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I was all for killing FE entirely if that is what it took to stop another Tony situation.
I do think SR could easily implement a $2k max FE... and I think it should be done ASAP!!
TJ
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I believe some form of cap on total FE's at 1 time would be smart.
How would you cap it? Finalization means that the transaction has been completed. Allowing Vendors to access the funds in escrow before the transaction is finalized sounds like the same thing as it is already has a cap on the amount you can borrow.
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As a vendor FE is just convenient. The auto finalize time (17 days is way to fucking long). My solution shorten it, as a domestic vendor all my shipments arrive within 3-4 days after the order is placed. If after 4 days its not there, its not going to show up. A shorter period would force buyers to actually get on and confirm they got their order or atleast have an extend button(+3 or 4 days) incase they need to resolve the issue. I am 100% for FE its way better than having to wait 17 days for my money when someone makes an account buys product and never logs in again.
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This has happened before, people should be learning by now. Silkroad doesn't need to implement a million safeguards to protect people from their own bad decisions. What does "free market" mean if not that bad businesses die and the businesses that evolve and meet peoples needs live? Buyers need to take a stand and refuse to finalize early, if we refuse to do it under any circumstances these scams would stop forever and the community would be better off. Of course people are going to rip you off if you are careless with your money.
This place is all about freedom, and that includes the freedom to make foolish decisions. I thought you guys hated regulation? We as buyers already have all the protection we need, it's time to start actually using it. I'm not attacking anyone personally, I've seen more than one instance of this, but I find it pretty frightening that even people who were ripped off by tony are saying "I'm done finalizing early, except for with x vendor, I know I can trust them".
That kind of thinking is what got you burned this time, and it will happen again. We don't need more regulation, people need to stop being so careless.
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How about all orders need to be shipped with a DCN, making it harder for buyers to say they never got their product?
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As a vendor FE is just convenient. The auto finalize time (17 days is way to fucking long). My solution shorten it, as a domestic vendor all my shipments arrive within 3-4 days after the order is placed. If after 4 days its not there, its not going to show up. A shorter period would force buyers to actually get on and confirm they got their order or atleast have an extend button(+3 or 4 days) incase they need to resolve the issue. I am 100% for FE its way better than having to wait 17 days for my money when someone makes an account buys product and never logs in again.
Absolutely agree here. All my domestic transactions are generally in the 2 to 4 day range however international shipments rarely take less than 14 days. If I put my website marketing hat on for a moment, shortening the auto-finalize time forces the buyers to login to the site more regularly which means more of an opportunity to convert page views into new sales. Alternatively put a bit of smarts in the transaction section and detect domestic and international orders and automatically set different auto-finalize times.
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How about all orders need to be shipped with a DCN, making it harder for buyers to say they never got their product?
DCN's are US only. Not all vendors are US based.
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We don't need to ban FE..
FE is necessary for new buyers to prove that they aren't scammers. If you ban FE, how many people are just going to make new accounts and buy shit and then just claim they didn't get it?
What we need to do is start using escrow more. Really, the service is there, and most vendors will allow it once you've got a decent amount of transactions under your belt. And if they don't allow it, we buy from someone else. That's how it works. Then it's up to those vendors if they want to accomodate people who only trade in escrow or if they want to stick with their customer base that are willing to FE.
And this is coming from a guy that got burned by Tony as well. We don't need the SR admins stepping in with further regulation when the problem is our own stupid decisions.
We trusted tony 100%, we thought he would never scam us, we all got fucking burned, so how about we deal with it and get smarter, start buying from vendors that trade in escrow, and if you trust them its up to you if you FE - but you can't come on here and demand that SR start changing things just because we made some dumb choices. I mean the whole point of SR is that its a free, anonymous market - it's anti establishment to its core and people are asking for greater regulations?
Personally I think everyone needs to wise up and start taking responsibility for their own decisions.
We gave Tony this god-status trust simply because he had many successful transactions and good feedback. That was our big mistake, and one none of us should make again. It's our own fault
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We don't need to ban FE..
FE is necessary for new buyers to prove that they aren't scammers. If you ban FE, how many people are just going to make new accounts and buy shit and then just claim they didn't get it?
Can I make the assumption then that you feel the resolution process is not fair to vendors when a zero transaction buyer sends a complaint to the resolution center against an established vendor?
A vendor can simply offer 0% refund to the untrusted newbie and SR will agree with it. It's no use creating new buyer accounts if the resolution process does not reward them in anyway.
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How can a new buyer build up cred when all the trusted vendors they want to order from will require a Early Finalize.
are new buyers suppose to order crap that they don't want a bunch of times to build cred up to buy from a trusted vendor that wont require you to FE. I think its a catch 22 no one can win in the long run. just like with t76 only a select few didnt have to FE and its not like you can move to the next in-Continent trusted vendor that doesn't require a FE.
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I think vendors should be able to "require" it all they like, just as buyers should be able to choose other vendors who don't make their "cash flow problems" those of the very buyers whose money they need to vend here.
I'm not giving another vendor my money up front so that he can go re-up.
I'm not giving another vendor my money up front because he starts whining about a few bad buyers "ruining" his reputation, or scamming him by claiming something didn't arrive.
I'm not giving another vendor my money up front only to have them implode because of personal problems.
These are not my problems, vendors, they are yours and yours alone. Next time you try to make them mine, I'll find a vendor who won't, and I'll preach it like a broken record to anyone who will listen. There are other ways for you vendors to manage your cash flow and increase your operating capital without attempting to force buyers to finalize early. There are other ways to ensure that buyers do not try to scam you by saying packages did not arrive.
If you leave, and there aren't any vendors selling the product I want, I'll wait until there are. And if no vendors show up to fill your spot, then then I'll consider this experiment in agorism/anarcho-capitalism to have run its course, and I'll look for another.
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This may have been stated in here already ( I skimmed most of it) and I don't know the logistics behind implementing it, but what about setting a way to do a certain percentage of the product purchase in escrow? There's going to be risk with everything, but not getting all your money scammed would be nice.
I would much rather had gotten $100 back out of escrow and taken a hit on my stats than lose the entire $300 "purchase" from tony. (side note: a part of me is still gullible/optimistic to think he'll be back :'( )
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Coming from a customer perspective I do not mind the finalize early option.
This is especially true if a vendor has a supply of a marketable product but may not have the cash on hand to keep enough to feed all of his customers. Finalizing early puts that vendor one step closer to restocking and you one step closer to buying a world class product.
That being said, as with any privilege, it is sure to be abused. I would just be as cautious as to a potential vendor as you would be in rw dealings. If a person or trade sounds shady or less/more than what its supposed to be avoid it. Its just that simple.
Also browsing the forums to see who is an active participant with good rating can also help cut down in the choosing hassle.
Keep in mind the importance of choosing a great vendor: you will have a regular source to go back to for that product.
Not supposed to be easy :), just rewarding!
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n0n00dz4u, that would be great if people like Tony didn't have awesome ratings, feedback and forum posts saying he was legit. then out of nowhere it he drops over 100 customers and bails.
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It's weird. The talk about banning FE makes FE'in sound like some super addictive substance that is so damn alluring that few mortals can resist it.
However, as a hypothetical; if all vendors of your DOC required FE, I could see the temptation to FE.
But in my mind, a vendor that requires FE from all, not just newbies, is one which is not capitalized enough to do steady business. So why bother with them? They are not coming with their A game. Makes you wonder in what other areas are they deficient in.
Though, I've never finalized early before and have over 50 transactions, if I requested a special order, I could see the vendor wanting me to finalize early. But since this violates my personal policy of not ever FE'ing, I would just pick from the vendor's regular offerings. The savings of the customized order is just not worth it, IMO.
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But in my mind, a vendor that requires FE from all, not just newbies, is one which is not capitalized enough to do steady business. So why bother with them? They are not coming with their A game. Makes you wonder in what other areas are they deficient in.
This. VERY well stated!
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Banning FE sounds good for domestic only buyers, but it will make for some less International shipping, or vendors would make their international shipping even more expensive. Since those vendors have deal with long payment delays and fronting shipping costs.
Some drugs aren't going to be domestically available in your viable price range, depending where you live of course.
Hmm so have to weigh the benefits of less scams happening for buyers, versus more difficult or expensive international shipping problems. And less international all around would mean less overall competition of prices. I'm sure some domestic only vendors would like that, but some vendors could lose more of their international shipping customers.
Maybe if there was a feature than the vendor and buyer together could set a custom auto-finalize date? Like they both have to agree on a auto-finalize time before the item could marked as in transit? Like the farther distance the shipping goes, the more you could push back the date, and the closer, faster, or more expensive the shipping the date could be pushed up? That could add delays and complications to checkouts and orders, I guess. Maybe that could replace the need for FE for some International shipping?
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One error I have made in the text of the poll is that it should be banning vendors from demanding early finalization. Obviously once a package is in transit a buyer can click the finalization button even if the shipment hasn't arrived yet.
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As I am still newish to this,I dont mind finalizing early to prove that I am not a scammer.I can understand others complaints about vendors with cash flow problems.To be honest,if a vendor starts vending on here,he should be backed up with enough cash to tie him/her over for a few months products before getting payment.Its simple economics!!You dont start a business unless you have the capital to sustain it for a few months!!!Auto Finalization happens after two weeks so if the vendor doesnt have enough capital to cover him,then he/she are only amateur!!
Also I dont agree that you have to rate when you finalise early and you dont get a chance to change your comment.A vendor can easily screw a newbie up with shit product!
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By FE'ing, there is no onus on the seller to deliver the product in a timely manner as they already have your money.
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How about all orders need to be shipped with a DCN, making it harder for buyers to say they never got their product?
DCN's are US only. Not all vendors are US based.
I hate how people need to be constantly reminded of this. We need solutions for the whole market, not particular countries.