Silk Road forums

Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: Cpt. Meow on April 28, 2012, 11:49 am

Title: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on April 28, 2012, 11:49 am
For those who don't know yet, this new policy requires customers to wait for 3 days before they can release the funds to the vendor even after the vendor selected the item as in transit. This applies to all vendors with a transaction history of <35. It was introduced completely unannounced and only after multiple requests for clarification, SR Support acknowledged the change. I assume the aim is to protect customers from fake vendors, but essentially it doesn't, it just makes life harder for all involved.

My suggestions concerning this measure are as follows with the imo preferred option first, please discuss:

1. Revoke this new policy asap (It has ben agreed on in various discussions by SR staff that customers can still finalize early if THEY want to and at their own risk, regardless if the transaction occurs with established or unestablished vendors, and if mutually agreed on, why not allow this policy to persist for all transactions?)

2. Extend the period before a customer can finalize to the average time it takes for a shipment to arrive (I assume 7-12 business days worldwide) This would mean a longer time in escrow but less incentive to scam and more protection for customers, at the expenses of honest vendors being scammed by fake customers with low to none transaction stats and having to wait for much longer periods to cash out.

3. Keep the 3 day period (This does not prevent new fake vendors, who lure customers to FE, from scammimg, since they simply have to wait for 3 more days before they get the coins, it's easy to convince a customer that the shipment takes a lot longer to arrive)

I'd like to know what the community thinks of this new measure. Cheers and be safe!

Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: rednelb1 on April 28, 2012, 11:57 am
What about when shipments only take 2

Then the vendor is waiting on money that is his. Then the buy has to remember to logon after he just went through a 16 hour trip and finalize.

I like the idea, but it has it's flaws.  Make it 2 days I say!  It isn't going to stop the big scammers by any means. They all build a rep before they make there getaway anyways.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: dkmonk on April 28, 2012, 12:50 pm
I don't have a preference either way, but what I have noticed is people complaining about how SR needs to do something to help keep buyer's safe from scams, and I am not saying anyone who posted in this thread was one of these people, but now it seems like (viewing other posts plus ones here) people are mad they they implemented the advice given to them.

I am sure it is frustrating for the staff to go by what the community is saying only to get just as much complaining when they put a solution in place.

Again, this isn't towards the OP or other poster, I just am speaking generally about what I have read in past month, and this thread seemed like a good place to post my opinion.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: wretched on April 28, 2012, 12:55 pm
sellers with less than 35 successful deals SHOULD have to wait for their money. this is about building trust here, not about how fast you can get your money. if you are a new seller, and can't afford to wait 3 days for your money, you probably shouldn't be selling here. early finalization is for trusted members, and new sellers can't be trusted until they have earned it. I don't know why all these new sellers complain about new buyers. sellers who haven't proved themselves are so worried about selling to buyers who haven't proved themselves. It doesn't make any sense. wait the 3 days for your money then once you have built a reputation, you can ask for your money up front. IMO it is better for a new seller to wait until the product actually arrives for their money than a buyer to wait on product from a new seller indefinitely. Suck it up new guys! building an illicit business takes trust, and trust takes time!
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: TrustusJones on April 28, 2012, 01:24 pm
35 is nothing... many of the vendors in the vendor forum have voted already and it is pretty much unanimous that we feel a new seller should not be allowed to FE before a certain number of transactions... and honestly many of us feel 35 is too low.

When a vendor goes rogue it hurts not only the buyers who get jacked but it also hurts the credibility of ALL vendors and even Silk Road.

There will always be people, buyers and sellers alike who are not looking out for yours or my best interest... buyers need protection as well as Vendors... this is just one step closer to making that happen.

TJ
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: rednelb1 on April 28, 2012, 02:18 pm
ill just take 1 extra day to ship,
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: namast3 on April 28, 2012, 02:21 pm
Quote
1. Revoke this new policy asap (It has ben agreed on in various discussions by SR staff that customers can still finalize early if THEY want to and at their own risk, regardless if the transaction occurs with established or unestablished vendors, and if mutually agreed on, why not allow this policy to persist for all transactions?


A lot of noobs who just found out about SR log in and are like
"OMG OMG OMG I feel like in a drug CANDYSHOP!I
I'M GOING TO TRY ORDERING SOMETHING ASAP"

This policy actually protects them from getting easily robbed by scam artists since a lot of new buyers only come to the forums after placing their purchases.


A new vendor should establish himself before being "trusted" here.
I don't even trust most of the established vendors.
I've been here for 7 months and seen a lot of reputable members turn scam.

And 35 transactions is too low IMO too,
especially since lotteries and e-books are getting  more popular nowadays.
Would've been better if the policy relied on the total amount of btc earned from completed transactions




Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Sonitchka on April 28, 2012, 03:35 pm
Seems like a good policy as long as it's restricted to new vendors.  35 seems kinda low for vendor accounts, but probably good to roll out the new policy slowly effecting only the newest of the new until it is proven whether it actually helps or not.  Good decision by DPR, as always.  It's not gonna stop scammers, but it is gonna make scamming more of a pain in the ass and it should slow a new vendor's ability to gain sketchy rep by selling lots of digital goods and lottery tickets to inflate numbers.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: j0blo on April 28, 2012, 04:55 pm
Great news.

New vendors aren't allowed to request that users finalize early, so this shouldn't effect them in the first place.

rednelb1, vendor name ita, makes it clear he doesn't think he needs to play by the rules.  Hopefully, customers will respond by avoiding vendors who disrespect them.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on April 28, 2012, 05:36 pm
Ok, It seems the consensus so far has been in favour of this policy and I myself could say alright fuck everything, I've reached the 35 mark at some point in the future anyways.

But before you unanimously favour this decision please consider this as well:

My exp. as a small time vendor on SR has been that >50% of my orders come from buyers with 0/0 stats. Essentially that would mean either I take the risk and ship the parcel to a potential scammer, wait 3 days for them to FE if they want to and ship then, or say no thanks I can't take your business. I would have had half of the transactions and feedback by now. 

In effect, all new buyers would only be able to buy with 'established' vendors (35 seems indeed a bit arbitrary) but there are a lot of substances here being sold that they would be unable to procure with this policy in place. Again this arbitrary 3 day rule doesn't make sense (maybe unless you're thinking specifically for US orders where 3 days shipping time seems reasonable), if you really want to implement it properly make it the average time a parcel takes to make it around the world.

Why should it be Ok for vendors to trust possible scammers, but buyers (regardless of their buying stats) should be protected at all costs?

TJ: Do you happen to know whether there has been a consensus that FE should not even be allowed if the buyer specifically wants to do it, without the vendor even asking? (Because this has been the case in probably 99% of all transactions I made)

It would be good to hear from vendors to-be and vendors with <35 transactions what they think about it

Cheers
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on April 28, 2012, 06:02 pm
if you are a new seller, and can't afford to wait 3 days for your money, you probably shouldn't be selling here. early finalization is for trusted members, and new sellers can't be trusted until they have earned it. I don't know why all these new sellers complain about new buyers. sellers who haven't proved themselves are so worried about selling to buyers who haven't proved themselves. It doesn't make any sense. wait the 3 days for your money then once you have built a reputation, you can ask for your money up front.

I think there is a slight difference between a vendor with 10 - 20+ 5/5 transactions in the $50 range and a 0/0 buyer stat, don't you think? And what is this 3-day waiting period intent to achieve in terms of preventing customers being scammed? I don't know about the average shipping time worldwide but should the finalize policy not at least be adjusted to that? (I'm speaking here from a buyer perspective)

Totally agree that 3 days waiting is nothing, it just makes an honest vendors life harder.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: uniwiz on April 28, 2012, 06:31 pm
I don't have a preference either way, but what I have noticed is people complaining about how SR needs to do something to help keep buyer's safe from scams, and I am not saying anyone who posted in this thread was one of these people, but now it seems like (viewing other posts plus ones here) people are mad they they implemented the advice given to them.

I am sure it is frustrating for the staff to go by what the community is saying only to get just as much complaining when they put a solution in place.

Again, this isn't towards the OP or other poster, I just am speaking generally about what I have read in past month, and this thread seemed like a good place to post my opinion.
I know I have been guilty of this.
Thanks for the change., at least I see effort being made.
I wish I had a magic solution other than vigilance.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: rednelb1 on April 28, 2012, 07:10 pm
Great news.

New vendors aren't allowed to request that users finalize early, so this shouldn't effect them in the first place.

rednelb1, vendor name ita, makes it clear he doesn't think he needs to play by the rules.  Hopefully, customers will respond by avoiding vendors who disrespect them.

First off, my quote above about waiting an extra day to ship was a joke.
Second, I am in favor of the policy personally. Honestly I don't mind waiting the extra day for the release of funds to me, my point was strictly saying that theoretically, if I ship something overnight, then I still can't get paid for 3 days. That is the only point and the only thing I don't like about it. You will find I am one of the friendliest people here. I follow all the rules. No one has complained so far.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: TrustusJones on April 28, 2012, 07:26 pm
Obviously rednelb1 is a prime example of a vendor who will potentially be adversely affected by the new rule with only 3 transactions and only one product for sale... it will take him a little while to get to the 35 mark...

There is no perfect fix but the decision to implement this rule is very very necessary. I could easily create a new account, transfer the Vendor start-up fee to the new account, get it setup and create 50 Opiate, Coke, Meth, etc... listings and charge 30% less than all the other vendors... I GUARANTEE I could convince 20-30 buyers (preferably ones who don't check the forums) to buy and FE...   the ability for anyone to be able do this MUST be stopped.

Yes I agree that if anyone FE's and gets ripped off then it is on them... I got ripped off by asbjorn when I was just starting up so I know what it is like to get jacked by a vendor.

Embrace the rule changes... they are only meant to make this place a safer place.

Thanks!!
TJ
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on April 28, 2012, 08:56 pm
Of course I agree with you that shouldn't be possible. But would 3 days before FE be enough time to protect all the early finalizers from this type of scammer ? Most of them will have finalized by then already I assume.

My main concern with this policy is the arbitrariness of the 3 day period (for the reasons stated above):

- is it a trade off between customer protection and cashing out time for vendors? (That would do next to nothing to prevent the usual scamming tactics)
- is it to keep money longer in the escrow system, for only god knows what reasons?
- is it to slowly introduce a change to longer periods? (1-2 weeks for <35 vendors, to implement the policy properly, then why not right from the start?)

Too many ? ? ? here for me

I'm going back to reading the Three Investigators

Good night y'all and be loved
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: dkmonk on April 28, 2012, 09:02 pm
How does this sound; Buyers with x amount of transactions and x amount of dollars can finalize when they want, and buyer's below that have to stick to the 3 day rule since they are new.

This way experienced buyers can risk FE if they want since they are not new and know the ropes, where as inexperienced buyer's have automatic protection from new sellers, so they can't screw their selves over.

I feel that makes sense, because an experience user should know all the risks and if he gets scammed then it is really a shame on him.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: maxhavelaar on April 28, 2012, 10:04 pm
ok, i can agree to this, just build yourself up to 35 transactions, it's cat and mouse in the end, but that seems to be the game everywhere (i mean that scammers will try to work around the 35 transaction limit)
good luck to all the good scambusters on SR, i pray one day somebody has a 'eureka' moment and we'll all live in green pastures of trust ;)

godspeed, max
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: PokerLotto on April 28, 2012, 11:49 pm
35 is nothing... many of the vendors in the vendor forum have voted already and it is pretty much unanimous that we feel a new seller should not be allowed to FE before a certain number of transactions... and honestly many of us feel 35 is too

Is the vendor forum for all vendors or just those with a certain number of transactions?
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: wretched on April 28, 2012, 11:58 pm
Now I know TFM isn't around anymore, and alot of their own policies are what led to their take down, but ONE thing they did that I always liked was a mandatory wait before you could confirm an order. I think it was 2-3 days, but maybe international sales took longer. and ALL their vendors were well vetted, but still didn't get paid until the customer received their order. I never saw joot, leon, or even the slow shipping jubei bitching on their forums about wanting customers to confirm early. Granted their system was not "escrow", but it worked to protect buyers. seller protection is a different matter that I will not really get into on this thread, but should be handled in a different way, also based on trust. I have some ideas floating around for the vendor protection system, but can't yet make them coherent. But the bottom line is, if you are selling enough on SR to be in the category of people allowed to bitch about the policy, then this policy doesn't really apply to you. Sorry if that sounds cold hearted, but I also gave tony a hard time about his policy when he was new (less than 1 month) even though his rep skyrocketed very early. I am starting to ramble now, sorry.


wretched
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: PokerLotto on April 29, 2012, 12:03 am
There are already rules that vendors with under 35 transactions cannot ask buyers to finalize early. That's good. New vendors could use FE scams to rip people off. I think this new policy just enforces that rule. I think it's a good idea. New vendors should have to prove themselves and build their reputation, by showing that customers received what they bought and only after it arrived, released escrow.

But I think it does affect new vendors in digital goods more. (In fact, I kind of wonder if this new policy is partly my fault.) A digital good (DG) can be sent immediately. Under the new policy, a new DG vendor can send an item instantly but has to wait an arbitrary 3 days before getting paid. A physical good from a new vendor probably won't reach someone in 3 days most of the time anyway. If a vendor needs funds that are sitting in escrow, SR now has the cash advance system.

And with the new category for lotteries and games, a scammer could get tons of people to finalize early, offsetting the cost of a vendor account, and never payout. Now new game vendors have to slowly to build a track record. It will take a while for me to get established, but that's a better alternative than rampant gaming scams.

And I suspect that funds sitting in escrow for new vendors might be utilized in the new cash advance system.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: wretched on April 29, 2012, 12:14 am
But I think it does affect new vendors in digital goods more. (In fact, I kind of wonder if this new policy is partly my fault.) A digital good (DG) can be sent immediately. Under the new policy, a new DG vendor can send an item instantly but has to wait an arbitrary 3 days before getting paid. A physical good from a new vendor probably won't reach someone in 3 days most of the time anyway. If a vendor needs funds that are sitting in escrow, SR now has the cash advance system.


the digital goods vendors don't really have their real money tied up in product the way the drug section vendors do, so they can wait. Lottery/raffles don't have any money tied up anywhere, so it doesn't bother me that they have to wait.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: PokerLotto on April 29, 2012, 12:48 am
the digital goods vendors don't really have their real money tied up in product the way the drug section vendors do, so they can wait. Lottery/raffles don't have any money tied up anywhere, so it doesn't bother me that they have to wait.

Yeah, vendors of physical goods have real money tied up and are taking real risks.

But a lottery vendor can't start a drawing or pay winners until the vendor has been paid for enough tickets to cover the prize money, unless they want to take a loss. So it's the players that have to wait. Which is probably good if the vendor is new.

Someone new selling e-books basically has to give the item away for free, and trust that the buyer will remember to finalize 3 days after they got the item. People who get physical goods in the mail often finalize as soon as the item shows up.

But if it decreases vendor scams then it's good.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: anarcho47 on April 29, 2012, 01:53 am
I am 100% behind this policy change.  I think the transaction limit should be upped to 100, personally, as these lotto gun-and-run scammers build up quick feedback off of 50 lotto tickets then pull the listings are start offering up drugs, buying a few with puppet buyer accounts over a few days and suddenly a newb is looking at what he thinks is a viable seller.

If a seller can't handle waiting 3 days to start washing his money out, then there are some serious problems with that seller's business management skills, and it might be time for a career change.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on April 29, 2012, 05:51 pm
anarcho, I don't know if you've read the entire thread but I assume you haven't, or else you'd refrained from leaving this this kind of snarky comment at the end.

I know it probably affects only a minority of vendors here on SR - however, a very important one - since this is the major playing field for scammers. As an honest small time vendor I was just utterly surprised and confused about this new policy and with this thread I stated my experience with it:

- This policy was introduced without any prior announcement to the vendors involved (is this common practice?)

- When customers who placed orders asked me what was going on, I asked Vendor Support, and they lied to me saying that this was supposedly a 'glitch' in the system; to make matters worse, someone else got a similar response from SR Support. Only after several requests after a few days the change was acknowledged.   

SR is only capable of surviving by the professionalism, trust and integrity of it's admins and community. What happened in this - admittedly small - case sadly weakens my faith in the overall integrity of the SR project.

And btw, I'm perfectly capable of incorporating an additional 3 day waiting period in my small SR business, but let me reiterate my point which you seem to have missed:

- What is this 3-day waiting period intent to achieve in terms of preventing customers from being scammed by the common scammer practices? It's a start, agreed, but ultimately, it does next to nothing! (for reasons mentioned further above in this thread)

Here's a suggestion from a buyers point of view (and as apparently practiced by TFM in a similar way): I don't know about the average shipping time worldwide for a parcel, but should the new finalize policy not at least be adjusted to this average time frame for all vendors <35? It would require only a small change in code to adjust the finalize period to something around 7-10 days. At least this change would make sense.

I'd like to know what other experienced SR members think about this. It would be great to have an intelligent discussion, thanks

Cheers
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: anarcho47 on April 29, 2012, 06:17 pm
anarcho, I don't know if you've read the entire thread but I assume you haven't, or else you'd refrained from leaving this this kind of snarky comment at the end.

I know it probably affects only a minority of vendors here on SR - however, a very important one - since this is the major playing field for scammers. As an honest small time vendor I was just utterly surprised and confused about this new policy and with this thread I stated my experience with it:

- This policy was introduced without any prior announcement to the vendors involved (is this common practice?)

- When customers who placed orders asked me what was going on, I asked Vendor Support, and they lied to me saying that this was supposedly a 'glitch' in the system; to make matters worse, someone else got a similar response from SR Support. Only after several requests after a few days the change was acknowledged.   

SR is only capable of surviving by the professionalism, trust and integrity of it's admins and community. What happened in this - admittedly small - case sadly weakens my faith in the overall integrity of the SR project.

And btw, I'm perfectly capable of incorporating an additional 3 day waiting period in my small SR business, but let me reiterate my point which you seem to have missed:

- What is this 3-day waiting period intent to achieve in terms of preventing customers from being scammed by the common scammer practices? It's a start, agreed, but ultimately, it does next to nothing! (for reasons mentioned further above in this thread)

Here's a suggestion from a buyers point of view (and as apparently practiced by TFM in a similar way): I don't know about the average shipping time worldwide for a parcel, but should the new finalize policy not at least be adjusted to this average time frame for all vendors <35? It would require only a small change in code to adjust the finalize period to something around 7-10 days. At least this change would make sense.

I'd like to know what other experienced SR members think about this. It would be great to have an intelligent discussion, thanks

Cheers

A proven vendor should be able to adjust his business model as he sees fit.  The majority of seller scams are on accounts with less than 100 legit transactions.  Forcing escrow on 100 transactions would be ideal, and auto-banning any vendor attempting to force FE before then has my full support.

I've been doing this on SR for almost a year.  I didn't start even offering out of escrow until after I had 100 transactions under my belt, because in my mind it was disrespectful to both the buyers and the owners of the site.

You might find my comment "snarky", but the fact of the matter is I have watched buyers bleed over 100k to scammers in my time here.  That directly affects me, because the good buyers eventually throw up their hands in despair and move back to the street to source.  It drives loyalty down and directly takes from buyers who could be purchasing from me and feeding my family, and getting a guarantee that their package is on its way.

Not to mention that every scam completely violates the NAP and takes a shit on the type of morality that allows for human progress.  It's backward-ass, I-am-missing-my-balls activity, and I want to see it stomped out.  If a seller is coming on here to make a career of it, they had damned well better be able to accommodate working within the escrow system or there is no place for them here.

Yes, SR should be communicating changes made to the site (for the most part - we are also talking about security here, so sometimes the "surprise!" method is the only way to go), and if you have a problem with their methodology, take it up with them.  Do I support the actual changes?  Hell, yes.  I want them more stringent.  Vendors can make a fuck-pile of money on here and should have to bleed a bit and prove they have the balls to be honest businessmen before the leash comes off.  Do I agree with how the changes were implemented?  No, but that's also none of my business because I don't own or partner in the site, and I didn't see any disclaimer guaranteeing lead-time to any changes in policy or terms or infrastructure.  That's DPR's game, and he can do what he pleases with it.  If he does well by the vendors, he will be rewarded with more products being offered and more sales, if his choices are poor, people will bail.  That's how markets work.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on April 29, 2012, 07:13 pm
Thanks a bunch for your thoughtful answer. We are on the same venture towards new and unexplored territory, so of course there are obstacles along the way.

In contrast to you, I am a 'recreational' vendor, I mostly do it because it gives me a little extra cash and the satisfaction to be able to help people who require medicine they would otherwise be unable to procure. Also, I live in a country where I don't have to worry to end up in jail for the rest of my life cos I shipped a couple of pills (been on OVDB before and learned some valuable online vending/security etc. techniques here and there and some sad lessons) but I haven't witnessed scams over 100k. Enough about me.

Back to topic on hand: Agreed, forcing escrow (or making the waiting period long enough) would be the most favorable solution in terms of buyer protection as I said. Reg. changes to the side, I would like the community to be involved as much as possible and if the consensus is to make it a 100 trans stat before possible FE decision and maybe final warning than ban if rules are not followed, I'm fine with it too.

Ultimately these are all DPRs decisions - it's a business model in the end, (small hiccups mean nothing compared to the overall success of the project) and I as well hope he continues with providing this wonderful opportunity and wish him all the best for the future.

Anyway, I dunno the best way forward, maybe make a poll in the vendor section as well as the SR discussion section about the policy changes, tbh, I'm tired a bit and any ideas in resolving these issues are warmly welcomed.

Cheers
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: TrustusJones on April 29, 2012, 07:24 pm
I have to agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with Anarcho47!!

I mean NO disrespect Cpt.Meow but this IS a 'business' for most of us... not just a place to dump a bottle of pills from time to time... yes you did pay your Vendor Fee to do business here and you deserve ALL the respect that is due a good Vendor on SR... but again this is a business.

Speak to ANY small business adviser and they will tell you you need a minimum of three months worth of monetary resources to keep yourself afloat till you start making a profit... to be really safe you need 6 months worth.

ANY vendor who can't let a $30 purchase float for 3 - 7 days before getting access to the funds needs to consider if this is for them... or save up some money and try it again.

Buyers who scam are a reality and one that won't go away... it is just too easy to do... but Vendors who scam are the only thing that could truly undermine and destroy SR (besides PoPo) as we know it. If buyers in general lose faith in the people who sell on here then you might as well close the doors...

my .02 cents..

TJ
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on April 29, 2012, 08:21 pm
TJ, thanks for your input, I don't want to make this discussion too much about me or my business strategy, although any advice is welcome. As I said earlier, as a small time vendor, financially I don't care too much about having a few hundred bucks sitting in escrow for a few more days . I have two perfectly normal jobs where I make my dow. But there is a bigger picture to all of this - we all know - and that's the overall direction SR is heading in terms of buyer/vendor scamming prevention and it's potential consequences.

Before yesterday I wasn't particularly involved in SR policies (and obv. know very little how SR developed and is currently run), but suddenly I happened to find myself in the center of a - not yet - significant change of SR rules which could ultimately affect the whole way SR is run and will develop in the future, and above all, every future vendor in my current position and therefore I see the need to discuss it in an open forum and to the best of my abilities.

I would like to steer the discussion more on the usefulness of the 3 day FE policy (whose pro's and con's have been discussed more or less above) and ask why it would not be a better idea to implement a more stringent rule altogether and more or less asap. Perhaps have an overall consensus on the details, have an official announcement and then have it implemented etc pp? A big relating issue is the development that customers formed the habit to immediately ask whether they should finalize early (the case with prob. 99% of my customers). If there are clear stringent guidelines implemented this development will resolve isteelf. A half-assed approach a la 3 day finalizing period is just confusing to all and changes almost nothing.

That's roughly the idea I'd like to push forward in this whole thread.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: guttermagic on April 29, 2012, 09:39 pm
although the new policy is a step in the right direction. it still doesn't prevent selective scammers with +whatever transactions later on.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: PokerLotto on April 30, 2012, 01:02 am
- This policy was introduced without any prior announcement to the vendors involved (is this common practice?)

AFAIK, features are often implemented without prior discussion or warning.

I don't know about the average shipping time worldwide for a parcel, but should the new finalize policy not at least be adjusted to this average time frame for all vendors <35? It would require only a small change in code to adjust the finalize period to something around 7-10 days. At least this change would make sense.

What would a 7 to 10 day forced wait for a new digital vendor achieve? If a digital item is sent instantly and a buyer can finalize within 5 minutes, that is not early finalization, that is receipt of goods and finalization. Digital vendors don't have to wait on the post office, so why should buyers of digital goods have to wait very long to pay the vendor? And for a new BTC/Moneypak vendor, a forced wait on finalization would just mean feedback could not show up for 10 days.

If buyers cannot release funds from escrow due to a forced wait, it allows SR to loan the funds sitting in escrow out, at interest, with the cash advance system, potentially to other people. I figure that's the idea.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: anarcho47 on April 30, 2012, 01:25 am
- This policy was introduced without any prior announcement to the vendors involved (is this common practice?)

AFAIK, features are often implemented without prior discussion or warning.

I don't know about the average shipping time worldwide for a parcel, but should the new finalize policy not at least be adjusted to this average time frame for all vendors <35? It would require only a small change in code to adjust the finalize period to something around 7-10 days. At least this change would make sense.

What would a 7 to 10 day forced wait for a new digital vendor achieve? If a digital item is sent instantly and a buyer can finalize within 5 minutes, that is not early finalization, that is receipt of goods and finalization. Digital vendors don't have to wait on the post office, so why should buyers of digital goods have to wait very long to pay the vendor? And for a new BTC/Moneypak vendor, a forced wait on finalization would just mean feedback could not show up for 10 days.

If buyers cannot release funds from escrow due to a forced wait, it allows SR to loan the funds sitting in escrow out, at interest, with the cash advance system, potentially to other people. I figure that's the idea.

If a digital vendor has something decent, he can probably unload about 100 transactions in a day or two if he's selling for the right price, meaning that by the time he would be done selling to get to the FE level, the 3 day time on the first transaction would probably not even be expired lol.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: PokerLotto on April 30, 2012, 04:16 am
If a digital vendor has something decent, he can probably unload about 100 transactions in a day or two if he's selling for the right price, meaning that by the time he would be done selling to get to the FE level, the 3 day time on the first transaction would probably not even be expired lol.

But think of how many moneypak codes a new scammer vendor could collect in 3 days before any feedback would show up.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on April 30, 2012, 09:08 am
I agree with you, tbh, the whole digital goods thing is an issue I haven't wrapped my head around yet, mainly because it doesn't affect me directly.

From the top of my head: I guess one solution could be to introduce slightly different policies depending on the product being sold.

<3z
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: JellyLegs on April 30, 2012, 12:58 pm
I haven't bought in a while, if this is still happening, I'd certaintly rather make my own options rather than have a system make choices to do what's best for me, in their opinion.
Though, there's some real dumb motherfuckers out there, who this'd certainly help.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Limetless on April 30, 2012, 03:13 pm
Speaking for myself at first I thought this was a good idea but now I'm on the fence.

I have reached 35 successful transaction benchmark, I'm now on 40 and once my next lot of packages are received I should be on 60+ and I've also had some good dealings with people giving them advice on financial stuff which I have recommendations so whilst new, I'd say I'm doing ok although I'm fairly new.

The only people I'd ask for FE off is those that have under 5 on their transaction history or the stuff I have to buy in for someone. Once you have past this point or you haven't asked for something I need to buy in I wouldn't ask. What's the need? Escrow is there for a reason and for bulk drugs I would insist on at least recorded for proof of delivery.

What I don't like about this new rule is that it doesn't allow you to ask for FE from people with low/no transaction history. I haven't been scammed via this way yet but I don't really want to start either. So yeah, I think once you get past the 35 mark they should allow this.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on April 30, 2012, 04:27 pm
Thanks for sharing!

I'm in a fairly similar predicament only that I'm a <35 vendor. I've had 3 orders from buyers with 0/0 stats today. What am I supposed to do? I've politely asked them whether it would be Ok for them to release the funds after the 3 day waiting period (basically circumventing this new policy to protect myself and thus make it pointless in the first place). If they do not agree to this, I will have to cancel their order. Looking back at my transaction history, my guess is that 85-95% of all my previous orders came from 0/0 stats buyers. Surprisingly, all of them went fine but they all wanted to FE right after ordering. Was this policy in place when I started here, I would have given up vending a long time ago.

That is just one more of the flaws I see regarding this policy and it needs to change rather sooner than later.

I've laid out my ideas of possible alterations to this policy in multiple posts above.

Be safe y'all!
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Dread Pirate Roberts on May 01, 2012, 12:34 am
thanks for the input everyone.  this is one of those policies we are trying out to see if it will help with scam prevention.  So far it is working out great:

1) Scam seller asks unsuspecting buyer to FE
2) Buyer can't click "finalize" and messages support
3) support catches the perp before he can scam one person
4) perp loses $150 and cries

We've shortened the delay to 2 days as well for those offering overnight deliveries.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: wretched on May 01, 2012, 12:39 am
too bad I can only give 1 karma point every 72 hours or I would have given you 2 for this feature DPR
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Limetless on May 01, 2012, 12:47 am
thanks for the input everyone.  this is one of those policies we are trying out to see if it will help with scam prevention.  So far it is working out great:

1) Scam seller asks unsuspecting buyer to FE
2) Buyer can't click "finalize" and messages support
3) support catches the perp before he can scam one person
4) perp loses $150 and cries

We've shortened the delay to 2 days as well for those offering overnight deliveries.

Right so basically there is no FE at all for anyone now then? I'm just checking because I need to chop that bit off my listing for the customers with >5 history then.

Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: JellyLegs on May 01, 2012, 06:01 am
2 days seems alright... I completely understand why admin would be testing this out though :)
Still not keen, but I'm not going to rage my face off about it.

As long as SR is here and I'm happy.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on May 01, 2012, 07:34 am
thanks for the input everyone.  this is one of those policies we are trying out to see if it will help with scam prevention.  So far it is working out great:

1) Scam seller asks unsuspecting buyer to FE
2) Buyer can't click "finalize" and messages support
3) support catches the perp before he can scam one person
4) perp loses $150 and cries

We've shortened the delay to 2 days as well for those offering overnight deliveries.

Right so basically there is no FE at all for anyone now then? I'm just checking because I need to chop that bit off my listing for the customers with >5 history then.

If I am not mistaken, the new policy solely applies to vendors with a transaction history of <35. So you should not be affected (at least until another change in policy comes along) :)
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on May 01, 2012, 08:30 am
DPR, thanks for taking the time to address your intentions regarding this change in policy. I am delighted to hear that, apparently after only this short period, you and the admins were already able to recognize a decrease in fraudulent activity. I know, essentially, we are ought to find a balanced approach between customer protection - especially concerning the flood of newbs, who are not yet familiar with the SR guidelines at the time they're placing an order -  and an easy, transparent and secure process to invite and select honest and trustworthy vendors on the site.


I too think new policies - such as this one - are required in the initiative to deal with scammers effectively. Several issues and ideas relating to this particular measure come to mind that have been addressed in previous posts, which I deem crucial and my hope is to see them discussed in more depth within the community and by SR itself:
 
1) A potential solution to keep scamming at a minimum would perhaps be a model which takes in account

   a) a vendors transaction number in relation to the volume of each individual transaction (the higher the better),
   b) a vendors  time here on SR

with the

   a) buying and
   b) refund statistics

of a particular customer and utilises this info to calculate the finalization period for each individual order.

2) The new policy should be adjusted asap to accommodate the varying demands of specific vending sections, this concerns vendors of digital goods in particular. 

3) Speaking from recent experience that I've received within my own little SR shop following the policy change: Nearly all customers approached me with first and asked why they could not FE  ( round about 6 out of 8 ). Lets assume I was a scammer, I could tell them anything. They would most likely adhere to it and finalize after 2-3 days. Considering this, I can not properly grasp the usefulness of a 2-3 day period for FE, apart from trusting DPR's statement that it indeed works.


Concerning DPRs 2nd point, my own experience contradicts from the picture painted by him a little. Contacting Vendor Support following the policy change, I was given misleading information, alas, my experience with VS has been less than stellar, to say the least. Also, I've heard from one of my own customers as well as from another member on the forum who messaged SR Support that both got varying responses ranging from an apparent 'glitch' in the system to outright silence. This should change asap and does, as stated, weaken my belief in a transparent, effective support, that is, above all, capable of catching actual perpetrators. This was a few days ago, I hope the management has been improving since.

Another idea: Perhaps a reminder to the SR community that specifically stated the contents of the new, implemented FE policies would be helpful to prevent widespread confusion.


Tbh, the implementation of this policy caught me and a number of people by surprise. But if SR Admins deem silent and small policy changes with regards to tackling fraudsters to be the most favourable option, so be it. I acknowledge this decision and of course continue to support this wonderful endeavour to the best of my abilities. Most importantly, I see the useful and intelligent input and feedback by the community as vital for preserving and nurturing the sustainability and integrity of the SR project.

Thanks for reading this far and be loved!
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Fah-Q on May 01, 2012, 04:46 pm
I have a legitamate business IRL. I give my customers 30 days to pay from invoice. So three days to finalize is nothing. I think it's fair. I have made purchases from vendors who mark it shipped, however postmark shows that it was actually shipped 3~4 days after vendor marked it shipped. How fair is that ? It does'nt matter how good a vendors feedback and rating are. I been scammed twice from two high ranking high volume vendors ( Cantfeelmyface, Hybridemike). From being such high ranked and every one trusting them. It's just to easy for them cashin and just walk away. So i don't think the new vendors are the ones to worry about. I actually have better experience with the newer vendors because they put in extra effort in thier sevice to establish a good rating.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Fah-Q on May 01, 2012, 04:56 pm
Another thing about the high volume vendors is that they have a higher chance of getting popped.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Limetless on May 01, 2012, 04:59 pm
thanks for the input everyone.  this is one of those policies we are trying out to see if it will help with scam prevention.  So far it is working out great:

1) Scam seller asks unsuspecting buyer to FE
2) Buyer can't click "finalize" and messages support
3) support catches the perp before he can scam one person
4) perp loses $150 and cries

We've shortened the delay to 2 days as well for those offering overnight deliveries.

Right so basically there is no FE at all for anyone now then? I'm just checking because I need to chop that bit off my listing for the customers with >5 history then.

If I am not mistaken, the new policy solely applies to vendors with a transaction history of <35. So you should not be affected (at least until another change in policy comes along) :)

Ah good stuff. Must have misread. :)
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: mdmamail on May 01, 2012, 06:10 pm
I hope they can read vendor messages BEFORE they null the account. Although my listings clearly say no requirement to FE some people just do it anyways beause they don't want to log back in and are asking me why it's not working. I haven't asked anybody to FE

Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: blacksunshine on May 03, 2012, 04:05 pm
Sellers who only sell domestically usually can get an order to their customer in 2 days.  Therefore I think 2 days would be sufficient.  This 3 day rule is not the answer to our problems.  With anonymity being such a concern, there isn't a straight forward solution.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Gupta on May 08, 2012, 12:17 am
I hate the new rule! It stinks!  :'(
I can get my product from my favorite vendor but then have to wait to pay them. That is ignorant and annoying! I'm looking to go on a 3 day bender and now I gotta remember to log back on and pay my vendor. Ya, that isn't going to happen. I'm going to get wasted and finalize later. Being honest. Either of us wants to wait.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: AfternoonDelight on May 08, 2012, 02:09 pm
As a new vendor I was using FE for new buyers until this Tony stuff blew up.
No more FE, of course, and I will limit selling to new buyers, for now.
So, when I re-up, I will have two separate listings.  One for trusted buyers, and one for new buyers.
I'll be putting the bulk of product up on the trusted buyers listing, and a few token amounts in the new buyer listings, to minimize my losses and give a few folks a chance to improve their rating.

I'm just a small vendor, so it's not like I can afford to take many losses.

I DO see this as a necessary step right now though, and am willing to stay here despite the 3-day wait for cashout.

The main reason I think this is a good idea, is when a huge scam goes down, the admins only have a certain amount of time to address the situation and get folks coins back before the vendor cashes out and leaves.
It wouldn't have helped in the Tony scam, as he was here for over three months and had over 300 transactions.  By most accounts he had a stellar reputation... so this will only address new sellers that scam early.

Hopefully though, this will encourage the good habit of avoiding finalizing early for new buyers and sellers.
Once it's a habit, it will be hard to break.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Cpt. Meow on May 08, 2012, 07:54 pm
Thanks for sharing this statement from the perspective of a new SR vendor.

If you deem it feasible to limit the majority of your business to customers with 5 and above successful purchases and still want to stick around until you reach the 35 transaction mark, I think Ok, fair enough ; )

I also agree its a step towards ending the FE habit, which I support,  but one of my concerns with this policy was the arbitrariness of the 3-day period. Why not 7, or 10?

My biggest fear with the implementation of this policy, however, was that new, honest vendors would have a hard time reaching the 35 transaction level until they can request FE from customers below 5 purchases without giving up due to being scammed by customers who take advantage of this policy or not having enough customers in the first place (about 80-90 percent of my customers have had a 0/0 purchasing stat when they ordered, for other vendors it could be different of course).

But if the majority of new vendors deems the 3-day waiting period an appropriate measure, I suppose we could close this chapter and move on  : )

Take care & best of luck with your SR venture!
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: jewfro on May 10, 2012, 12:35 am
i think this is fine, and it could even help the noobs who come here and since noobs are like psychically attracted to other noobs, it works for everyone involved!

but really though, <35 transactions is nothing... if i was a vendor, i wouldn't even complain. probably.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: klaw239 on May 18, 2012, 01:30 pm
I can only think of three reasons why someone would not want this policy in place.

First and foremost  the powers to be here thought out very nicely how to form this site and it's policy's and the do not finalize  early is in place FOR GOOD REASON.

With that said the 1st reason is cause the vender in question must be operating  on a shoe string and needs the constant flow of coins in his account to keep the rotating door moving. 2. reason...said vender wants to be  a crook  get unsuspecting buyers to finalize early and  then the jokes on them.  the 3rd reason is the said vender is not a crook per say but   wants to get people to finalize early when he does not have advertised products on hand but is still collecting coins from people to order what someone has requested.  Borrowing  from one hand to pay the other is never good business.

personally I think this 3 day idea is great. I am not going to dog vendors that are on a shoe string budget  cause I know what it is like to be poor or not have the capitol to keep something flowing smoothly. In the business world as a rule of thumb it is usually best to not even open you doors if you are not liquid enough to keep your  doors open for one year with your own reserves.


Anyways  thank you SR for this policy.  Will for sure cut down on the scams. Have a safe and fun weekend everybody.
 
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Gupta on May 20, 2012, 12:37 pm
I HATE THIS FUCKING POLICY!!!!!!


IT ENCOURAGES vendor to mark good in transit when they are really not. AND I get fucked up and forget to finalize in a timely manner. I had to wait 10+ hours. I forgot. Now my vendor is pissed. IF I could finalize upon delivery like NORMAL everything would be great. But all the FE noobs/morons screw it up for the rest of us.

I HATE THIS FUCKING POLICY!!!!!!
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: SR_Seller_Accounts on May 20, 2012, 02:44 pm
As a seller, if a couple days waiting to finalize makes or breaks your business, you really need to choose a different occupation.

As a buyer if money is that tight those couple days makes or breaks you, you really should be prioritizing your money differently.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: never on May 20, 2012, 03:17 pm
its a great idea.
less people will get ripped...
it takes 3 days to get prod. anyway
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: 46&2 on May 20, 2012, 03:32 pm
only once have i received a package prior to 3 days. it was 2. anyway, why not encourage the escrow and what it's purpose is.
this and the pin feature are great for a little piece of mind.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Ksimo05 on May 20, 2012, 10:26 pm
Maybe it should differ between what type of mail you select be it express priority or first class. Just my .2 btc
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: CoinBox on May 21, 2012, 01:40 am
As a new bitcoin vendor it means I can't see my positive reviews for four days, and I still don't mind because it makes people getting scammed more difficult. If a new vendor can suck it up, it think others certainly can.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: nimbus on May 21, 2012, 01:45 am
Yeah this probably needs some tweaking. I've ordered from a new vendor who is in the same region as me and can often deliver in 1-2 days. This means the poor new vendor has well-deserved coins tied up in escrow for an extra day. I'm sure this leads to delays in re-up, thus taking longer to get his transaction count up, etc.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: 4903kmn1d on May 22, 2012, 01:36 am
What about when shipments only take 2
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: 46&2 on May 22, 2012, 01:43 am
What about when shipments only take 2

hedged escrow along with the current stability(of BTC), should really not pose a problem.
???
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Black Tuna Gang on May 23, 2012, 07:38 am
My issue with this policy is the fact that my buyers cannot finalize when they get the goods. I am sending UK to UK only at the moment so most packages have been arriving the next day. This means i have to wait two more days for my money, and more importantly feedback.

I supppose this is a small price to pay for extra security all round but the buyers don't seem to realise why they can't finalize and have even said they have a glitch at their end.

Maybe if we are going to keep it something actually on the site to explain why the finalize button does not appear?
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Kappacino on May 23, 2012, 01:31 pm
I think this is a good policy to be honest, new vendors should have to prove themselves
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: AJAPAI on May 26, 2012, 08:08 am
honestly as a vendor i think its a good thing i mean if u dont have 35 sales u arent doing a good job.
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Black Tuna Gang on May 26, 2012, 02:28 pm
or you haven't done as many good jobs as you need yet ;)
Title: Re: Why I think the new 3-day finalization policy is a bad idea
Post by: Bamann on May 29, 2012, 03:51 am
As a vendor with <35 transactions, the policy hasn't really bothered me.  I was actually a bit entertained to realize that my packages were arriving before the 3-day wait was up.  :P