Silk Road forums
Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: Manteca on April 17, 2012, 04:29 pm
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Hi all. It's truly unfortunate when things like this happen. In a better world (like one recently discussed at the Summit of the Americas) things like this wouldn't happen. So it goes, however. I suggest you read the court documents that were filed for the case. You can get them at http://www.scribd.com/doc/89690597/Willemsindictment-Filed-045. They paint a very telling picture of the business workings of the site. Excellent reading. If you do the math, they made most of their money off of expensive weed. The Feds made most of their case off LSD carrier weight and numbskulls. BUT who wants to do that shit? That's why I have boiled them down into digest for you guys. Here are the key lessons of this experience in question and answer format:
* "Should I use Hushmail so be 5up3r secret?"
Answer: No. Are you a numbskull? Hushmail has been known to disclose everything they know about you. For further information about Hushmail, start with googling "The Hive bust." They are lilly-white Canadian jerks engaging in SECURITY THEATER. Say "No" to Hushmail.
* "Should I use PGP to protect myself? I don't know if it's effective"
Answer: YES. Well -- yes with a but. PGP, used correctly, is currently the BEST protection to protect against yourself against interception unwanted access to your messages. BUT, If you've given your key to da LEO, it no longer works. It's a wiretap protection and nothing more.
* "Should I send many thousands of dollars in wire transfers to the Netherlands?"
Answer: Unless you want to brag about it -- no.
* "If not the NL, what about a Panamanian offshore holding corporation?"
Answer: Dude no. You don't get it. Wire transfers outside of your country are very suspicious. Even screenwriters know that. Don't do that shit.
* "What about sending them to Brazil? That's cool, right?"
Answer: Are you fucking serious? They sent money to Brazil AND Panama AND the Netherlands?? Who the hell does that? How much? LIKE $150,000?? Wow. That's a lot.
* "Should I use Western Union or PayPal"
Answer: NO DUDE. No.
* "Did they get busted for BitCoins?"
Answer: No. The did not. They got busted for using Western Union, Panamanian wire transfers, and Dave Matthews Band references.
* "Should I openly share ANY of my online account information (Pecunix, Egold, MtGox)?"
Answer: NO. Payment systems beyond BitCoin are always insecure! Pecunix will talk to da LEO and then tell them how shares were transferred to any number of addresses or exchanges, which leads them to more accounts, and then to YOU. Don't give these things out to untrusted parties. Ever.
* "According to this case, do our security measures work well?"
Answer: Pretty much. They got these guys for committing wire fraud basically. That led them to the tangible person behind the screen. That and FUCKING HUSHMAIL are what made this an easy target. But once made easy prey, da LEO just did some easy undercover work and waited them out. As long as you and SR can stay anonymous, we all won't go down like these guys. It looks like TOR and bitcoin worked... for now... [sinister laughter]
I hope my morning coffee rant has been helpful to you. I know it's been helpful to me.
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You forgot : "Don't use a service like tor2web.org"
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In the document, they repeatedly say "sent in a coded message". Think they are referring to pgp?
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BUT, If you've given your key to da LEO, it no longer works.
I don't think that is how it works. Maybe somebody can enlighten me but as long as you are only giving out your PUBLIC key and not your PRIVATE key then the PGP messages are still safe. There is no reason to ever send out your PRIVATE key.
Regarding "sent in a coded message" I'm not sure if they broke the PGP or if they were referring to Hushmail's own security measures. If it was PGP that was broken then they cracked multiple different users PGP private keys. I'd like to know exactly what that means too.
Another tidbit i picked up. An undercover sent cash in mail and when the letter was delivered the recipient was under surveillance (check allegation number 280 on the indictment). So even CIM should be avoided.
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BUT, If you've given your key to da LEO, it no longer works.
I don't think that is how it works. Maybe somebody can enlighten me but as long as you are only giving out your PUBLIC key and not your PRIVATE key then the PGP messages are still safe. There is no reason to ever send out your PRIVATE key.
Indeed.
The main risks you face with PGP is:
a) The receiver stores the message - either in plaintext or still encoded. If they are then compromised at any point the message will be revealed.
For this reason, all incriminating correspondence should be destroyed ASAP, even if it is encoded. SR claims to do this, but you have no way of knowing if a vendor does.
b) An efficient algorithm for cracking PGP is found. PGP is NOT unbreakable, it is just very difficult to break with current known methods. It is entirely possible that a better method has already been discovered and we just don't know it.
The good news is that if, say, the US government did acquire a method for deciphering PGP, they would not use it for something so trivial as busting SR. Much better to keep it a secret and listen in on all sorts of conversations for as long as possible.
For those who think that's just a conspiracy... look into the origins of the algorithm PGP uses. It was actually discovered first by the British secret service, they just kept it a secret for 20 years!
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You forgot an important part of the FM fiasco:
Don't play man in the middle between customers and vendors (site operators paying the vendors via the same non anonymous payment options they were taking money in with). Seriously, they were just asking to get busted doing this. They may as well have made a powerpoint presentation with all the bullet points painting a pretty map of all their transactions from customer to vendor.
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@Manteca
One of the primary things that allowed them to be caught was cash in mail.
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Well, I want to continue learning from other people's mistakes and not my own.
Just a tragedy, but in a way necessary, to keep us here at the Road aware of how privileged we are and how anonymity is KEY!
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Anytime there is drugs and money there will be informants. In spite of protests to the contrary, when busts start going down, seems people are always quick to want to give up their dealers. And if you read thru the indictment, you'll see that this was true here, also, and I'm totally sure there are and will be, many more trying to make deals, to avoid prison.
The great genius of SR, is that they have protected their vendors, and don't rely at all upon 'honor among thieves' which, sadly, it seems was the case in TFM.
The weak spot on SR is that vendors can give up buyers...besides hoping vendors never get in that position, it does make me worry about the periodic scammers and ripoffs on here, who I've thought often could also be LE or snitches just trying to get a bunch of our addresses...but even so, it would make just about an impossible court case, as long as we held our mud, and went to court, rather than get all freaked out and cop pleas. And busting a bunch of low level buyers who can't give anybody up? Would they really want to do that?
Interesting legal situation, anyway...but btc changes our situation huge...with the exception being the idiots who go outside btc on here...*bad* move.
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Sounds interesting phub...
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Lets talk Buyers and Vendors a sec... it seems there are a lot of you who are confused about who the feebs really want...
The Feebs want Vendors...that is a fact.
Buyers who NEVER buy over 2 oz. have NOTHING to worry about on SR.
Federal Prosecutors only care about buyers if they can give up the vendor. Since you can't you are basically worthless to them... they ARE NOT going to take a buyer to trial on a 2 gram order...
Look at every Fed case involving a prostitution ring and the John's... every time they bust a big escort ring they always proclaim how they are going after the John's... that is just a scare tactic... no Fed Prosecutor is going to sully his rep with a bunch of John busts... those are worthless in the grand scheme of his career.
The ONLY reason I am as cautious as I am is because I am a vendor... if I were JUST a buyer it would most likely be a lot different.
Buyers... the Feds might try to Boo you up (prison term) but if you have nothing to offer most likely you are not facing anything more than a pair of crap filled shorts from them F'in with you.
I can't really say how I know what I know but just let me be clear here... I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!
If your a buyer keep your orders at less than 2 oz. and have fun... don't let the bullies scare you!
Take care,
TJ
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Adam was centralized, and everybody selling on his board had to pay 25% in fees to him whenever they made a sale.
He did a lot of private sales, I'd say more like 1.5 million a year he was making.. not the 1 million the DEA claim from 2007-2009, that was probably just orders on the site. Problem with being centralized is there is one insecure Hushmail account to seize and get at all the shipping addresses for his "deputies" as the news called them in the US. Easy to round up.
Adam would send 25k worth of drugs via ocean freight to vendors in the US to resell. He did this for years until they started getting seized and he gave up on shipping to the US all together and just let the locals do their own sourcing. He supposedly "retired" a few years ago, guess that was not the case. Keysh or whoever that was (they were arrested too) ran the Tor forums and was their site coder. Security through obscurity, they thought if they split the board because somebody kept posting the address on the hidden wiki that they would be safe. Problem is onlinepot.org still has his advertisement up, and Adam would send you a full menu AND link to the hidden store by emailing it, so no idea why he cared about the hidden wiki when he was wide open anyways.
None of the information entered in their store was encrypted. There is a huge list for the DEA to go through but unless it's trafficking quantities they won't care. All the arrests that were gonna happen, already happened. They don't announce an operation while there's still people they want to arrest obviously so they don't destroy evidence. They swooped in and arrested everybody on the same day practically could have easily kept it quiet and still ran the board for entrapment but they didn't.
Adam hired paypal cashiers who forwarded him Western Union and bank wires. Really bad security. Brazil is the worst place in the world to send/receive bank wires, all banks are heavily monitored by the state. Might as well be use US bank accounts.
He thought that by catering to the mouth breathing masses of morons who can't figure out digital currency, he would make more money (greed) and be safe in the Netherlands even though they extradited Frankie and numerous other NL vendors over the years for selling LSD. He assumed his proxy of paypal and WU cashiers wouldn't sell him out at the first chance they got when staring down a life sentence for conspiracy to launder and traffic drugs. Wrong.
Places like DutchGreenClub survive because they don't ship to the states. If you're taking Paypal and stupid shit don't ever send to the US, nobody will come after you. International law enforcement could give 2 fucks about online drug peddling. Only the US cares and makes them take action through LE treaties.
Adam also originally started ravesupply@hushmail.com and his business partner some other Dutch guy ran away with the money so he started AdamFlowers by himself. I hope Adam is sending money to his US employees serving life sentences, because Adam will just go back to the Netherlands on a prison transfer request and walk free in a year or so. No doubt he has money hidden somewhere unless he really was stupid and used Hushmail backdoored services for everything.
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Lets talk Buyers and Vendors a sec... it seems there are a lot of you who are confused about who the feebs really want...
The Feebs want Vendors...that is a fact.
Buyers who NEVER buy over 2 oz. have NOTHING to worry about on SR.
Federal Prosecutors only care about buyers if they can give up the vendor. Since you can't you are basically worthless to them... they ARE NOT going to take a buyer to trial on a 2 gram order...
Look at every Fed case involving a prostitution ring and the John's... every time they bust a big escort ring they always proclaim how they are going after the John's... that is just a scare tactic... no Fed Prosecutor is going to sully his rep with a bunch of John busts... those are worthless in the grand scheme of his career.
The ONLY reason I am as cautious as I am is because I am a vendor... if I were JUST a buyer it would most likely be a lot different.
Buyers... the Feds might try to Boo you up (prison term) but if you have nothing to offer most likely you are not facing anything more than a pair of crap filled shorts from them F'in with you.
I can't really say how I know what I know but just let me be clear here... I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!
If your a buyer keep your orders at less than 2 oz. and have fun... don't let the bullies scare you!
Take care,
TJ
TJ brings up a good point, and fwiw most of his posts in the forums are always very sound and logical. This is one reason that I as the buyer am not really paranoid about being tracked down, I never order anything more than personal amounts of pills usually- shit that' taken pretty quickly and nothing that sits around for weeks at a time. Why would the LE want me? I'm nobody. Even if they did come busting down the door waiving a warrant what would they find? Nothing. No drugs, no evidence, no envelopes- nothing. What could they build a case around?
Maybe I am looking at this wrong, but I think most of us are such small time customers that we virtually have nothing to offer even.
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Maybe I am looking at this wrong, but I think most of us are such small time customers that we virtually have nothing to offer even.
You have something to offer. You are a warm body to fill the prisons, and to make the career of some junior agent with no notches under his belt. There are millions of people in prison for personal amounts.
Buyers who NEVER buy over 2 oz. have NOTHING to worry about on SR.
Are you kidding? In the TFM indictment, there are criminal counts / conspiracy charges for as little as $35 - $60 worth of drugs (including charges of purchasing/possession). Granted, these are for the sellers / main actors, but don't think that buyers are immune. They are lower priority, but the feds will take what they can get.
Federal Prosecutors only care about buyers if they can give up the vendor. Since you can't you are basically worthless to them... they ARE NOT going to take a buyer to trial on a 2 gram order...
Sort of true. The feds want control of the darknet and to scare everyone off of it. I agree on that part. But they'll go after people for 2 grams. Yeah their priority is larger amounts , but they will take small fish over no fish.
Even if they did come busting down the door waiving a warrant what would they find? Nothing. No drugs, no evidence, no envelopes- nothing. What could they build a case around?
That's right. Assuming you followed 'perfect' security protocols and kept your mouth shut (and no vendor turned on you), you'd get scared shitless but the charges would be dropped. There would be no case. But not everyone will do this. Some will panic and snitch. Some will panic and confess. Some people's hard drives will be littered with evidence because they don't sanitize or use encryption. Some will turn into informants. Some will have mountains of evidence lying around (like the envelope for every single package they ordered).
Security is only as good as the weakest link here, and the weakest link is not TOR or PGP . The weakest link is the human involved.
There is a recent thread in the security section where a guy got 'busted' for a couple of 20g shipments of MDMA from the NL , which customs seized on the way in, and there was an investigation, and search of his home. But the mail charges were dropped for lack of evidence tying the drugs to the money.
That's really promising.
BUT he did get charged for what he had lying around the house. My opinion is there is too much heat here on SR to justify continuing. After TFM, the next logical target will be the Silk Road.
Which is why I'm out.
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"That's right. Assuming you followed 'perfect' security protocols and kept your mouth shut (and no vendor turned on you), you'd get scared shitless but the charges would be dropped. There would be no case. But not everyone will do this. Some will panic and snitch. Some will panic and confess. Some people's hard drives will be littered with evidence because they don't sanitize or use encryption. Some will turn into informants. Some will have mountains of evidence lying around (like the envelope for every single package they ordered).
Security is only as good as the weakest link here, and the weakest link is not TOR or PGP . The weakest link is the human involved.
There is a recent thread in the security section where a guy got 'busted' for a couple of 20g shipments of MDMA from the NL , which customs seized on the way in, and there was an investigation, and search of his home. But the mail charges were dropped for lack of evidence tying the drugs to the money.
That's really promising.
BUT he did get charged for what he had lying around the house. My opinion is there is too much heat here on SR to justify continuing. After TFM, the next logical target will be the Silk Road.
Which is why I'm out."
Good points here, and this is why it's imperative to follow security measures at all times. As soon as I get my packages, they get shredded, my personal amounts are what I keep on hand however they can come from anyone. Even if a vendor did turn, who's to say if those packages that were allegedly ordered by me were were ever received? The way I see it, unless I am actually caught with the actual evidence in hand there is 0 proof. Even if I did get arrested I'd simply deny and ask for a lawyer. If they decide they want to waste tax payers dollars over say a few orders of 10-20 V's then let's fuckin do it. A judge and jury would likely look at the docket and throw the shit out for it being a waste of time with virtually no evidence. And good luck explaining to some 40 year old stay a home mother what a bitcoin is and how it's obtained.
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I'm new here to SR and this post has been really informational, thanks CaliTrees for the info on Keys!
Timbre
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The way I see it, unless I am actually caught with the actual evidence in hand there is 0 proof.
This really depends on (1) how you are obtaining bitcoins, and (2) whether the vendors you are working with can be trusted. But if you are getting BTC in an anonymous manner, and your vendor is not a narc, informant, or is mentally unstable, and he always destroys your personal information and incriminating records upon shipment confirmation, then I'd agree with you that there is 0 proof.
As for you, you sound like you have your shit together. But alot of people on here do not. They will be the first to get burned.
If they decide they want to waste tax payers dollars over say a few orders of 10-20 V's then let's fuckin do it.
I highly doubt they are going to go after anyone for Schedule III/IV , at least not before they go after Schedule I and II And I doubt they are gonna go after you for your personal stash of valium, simply because when people order personal amounts of valium from international pharmacies, they are rarely prosecuted, and are instead sent a love letter to scare you into not doing it any more.
I don't think there has ever been a single instance of a love letter for Schedule I substances though, and there are plenty of examples of arrests/search warrants. There are also a fair amounts of examples of nothing happening (so far) for small amounts of intercepted schedule I.
A judge and jury would likely look at the docket and throw the shit out for it being a waste of time with virtually no evidence
Well, yeah I mean if all they have is an intercepted package (no controlled delivery), with no witnesses, no evidence linked you to the bitcoins, no evidence linked you to the drugs , it will definitely get thrown out of court.
But that's not the risk . The risk is the guy who gets his house searched , flips his shit, blabs his mouth for hours to the cops, agrees to help with sting operations, has postmarked packaging from 200 vendors lying around, has a silk road mailbox full of emails, no encryption, is a compromised silk road mod or admin , etc. You are probably fine, but make sure that you are in the top 5% in terms of paranoia and security.
The low hanging fruit (the forum idiots who give out their addresses to get free 'samples', go out of escrow, the one's who can't figure out how to use PGP, etc) and the high-level operatives (DPR+company, and large-volume vendors) will be the first to get targeted. So will anyone get targeted who makes a mistake that reveals their identity (using the same handle as their facebook profile, etc)
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Hi all. It's truly unfortunate when things like this happen. In a better world (like one recently discussed at the Summit of the Americas) things like this wouldn't happen. So it goes, however. I suggest you read the court documents that were filed for the case. You can get them at http://www.scribd.com/doc/89690597/Willemsindictment-Filed-045. They paint a very telling picture of the business workings of the site. Excellent reading. If you do the math, they made most of their money off of expensive weed. The Feds made most of their case off LSD carrier weight and numbskulls. BUT who wants to do that shit? That's why I have boiled them down into digest for you guys. Here are the key lessons of this experience in question and answer format:
* "Should I use Hushmail so be 5up3r secret?"
Answer: No. Are you a numbskull? Hushmail has been known to disclose everything they know about you. For further information about Hushmail, start with googling "The Hive bust." They are lilly-white Canadian jerks engaging in SECURITY THEATER. Say "No" to Hushmail.
* "Should I use PGP to protect myself? I don't know if it's effective"
Answer: YES. Well -- yes with a but. PGP, used correctly, is currently the BEST protection to protect against yourself against interception unwanted access to your messages. BUT, If you've given your key to da LEO, it no longer works. It's a wiretap protection and nothing more.
* "Should I send many thousands of dollars in wire transfers to the Netherlands?"
Answer: Unless you want to brag about it -- no.
* "If not the NL, what about a Panamanian offshore holding corporation?"
Answer: Dude no. You don't get it. Wire transfers outside of your country are very suspicious. Even screenwriters know that. Don't do that shit.
* "What about sending them to Brazil? That's cool, right?"
Answer: Are you fucking serious? They sent money to Brazil AND Panama AND the Netherlands?? Who the hell does that? How much? LIKE $150,000?? Wow. That's a lot.
* "Should I use Western Union or PayPal"
Answer: NO DUDE. No.
* "Did they get busted for BitCoins?"
Answer: No. The did not. They got busted for using Western Union, Panamanian wire transfers, and Dave Matthews Band references.
* "Should I openly share ANY of my online account information (Pecunix, Egold, MtGox)?"
Answer: NO. Payment systems beyond BitCoin are always insecure! Pecunix will talk to da LEO and then tell them how shares were transferred to any number of addresses or exchanges, which leads them to more accounts, and then to YOU. Don't give these things out to untrusted parties. Ever.
* "According to this case, do our security measures work well?"
Answer: Pretty much. They got these guys for committing wire fraud basically. That led them to the tangible person behind the screen. That and FUCKING HUSHMAIL are what made this an easy target. But once made easy prey, da LEO just did some easy undercover work and waited them out. As long as you and SR can stay anonymous, we all won't go down like these guys. It looks like TOR and bitcoin worked... for now... [sinister laughter]
I hope my morning coffee rant has been helpful to you. I know it's been helpful to me.
No i think you got it pretty correct. They were very vulnerable! I hate the BTC hassle and know there's still trails......Dwolla>MTGox>wallet>SR > trouble! not comfortable with that newb to easy to be safe action
easy to follow trails...not sure what i'll do now?
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Buyers who NEVER buy over 2 oz. have NOTHING to worry about on SR.
Stop pulling things out of your ass they are stinky
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The lessons to learn from TFM should already have been learned by previous operations
*Don't use paypal
*Don't accept CIM
*Don't use hushmail
*Your forum has feds on it
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and finally
could have easily kept it quiet and still ran the board for entrapment but they didn't.
They couldn't have kept it up for long without it leaking, for one people would notice all of those people suddenly were not getting online anymore unless they all turned over their account info to the feds. For two I am pretty sure Adam knows people in the NL scene IRL and they would have found out he was arrested and word would have spread from them to the forums pretty quickly anyway. Many vendors know at least one or two other people from the forums IRL, we almost always learn quickly when someone is busted (at least in private scene) because someone who knows them and wasn't busted finds out quickly and it spreads from them word of mouth.
I also wouldn't be so sure that this is the last of the arrests, there very well could already be dozens of others who merely didn't show up on this indictment. It isn't like they are going to charge all of the customers with running a continuing criminal enterprise etc, but I will be surprised if there are not at least two or three dozen other arrests linked to this that didn't make the news because they were not part of the indictment against the main players.
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and finally
could have easily kept it quiet and still ran the board for entrapment but they didn't.
They couldn't have kept it up for long without it leaking, for one people would notice all of those people suddenly were not getting online anymore unless they all turned over their account info to the feds. For two I am pretty sure Adam knows people in the NL scene IRL and they would have found out he was arrested and word would have spread from them to the forums pretty quickly anyway. Many vendors know at least one or two other people from the forums IRL, we almost always learn quickly when someone is busted (at least in private scene) because someone who knows them and wasn't busted finds out quickly and it spreads from them word of mouth.
I also wouldn't be so sure that this is the last of the arrests, there very well could already be dozens of others who merely didn't show up on this indictment. It isn't like they are going to charge all of the customers with running a continuing criminal enterprise etc, but I will be surprised if there are not at least two or three dozen other arrests linked to this that didn't make the news because they were not part of the indictment against the main players.
The indictment was released in november 2011, it was saw by a jury in september.. They pretty much let this place sit open for 6 months after they already had a massively solid case.
They probably already knew the location of the server, and if they did even SR is vunerable to man in the middle attacks with the cooperation of the ISP (which they will comply).
Just because this is a much harder target doesnt mean its fool proof, being complacent is what got TFM in shit... hell it worked for years, right?
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They probably already knew the location of the server, and if they did even SR is vunerable to man in the middle attacks with the cooperation of the ISP (which they will comply).
(1): If they knew the location of the server, the site would show a takedown page instead of TFM.
(2): Please elaborate on "man in the middle attacks with the cooperation of the ISP". What makes you think the ISP knows anything?
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I will be surprised if there are not at least two or three dozen other arrests linked to this that didn't make the news because they were not part of the indictment against the main players.
it's already happening, and it is making the news, iirc it was in the DOJ's press release too
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Lets talk Buyers and Vendors a sec... it seems there are a lot of you who are confused about who the feebs really want...
The Feebs want Vendors...that is a fact.
<snip>
I can't really say how I know what I know but just let me be clear here... I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!
If your a buyer keep your orders at less than 2 oz. and have fun... don't let the bullies scare you!
Take care,
TJ
Sure, we all 'kind of' know this is what they would like. Bust the vendors. 'Probably.' But I don't think we are confused at all.
I've know boys do quite a bit of time on just 'possesion' charges, and I look at the combined LE that took on TFM, and between Postal Inspectors and DEA and I have a feeling we shouldn't count on anybody being left out of this deal. I think if this gang gets to scooping up people, they'll scoop up whoever they can get. It's not bullying: we don't know how this will play out, it's simply too new. There is no precedent. Is their prime motivation locking up dealers? Or is it sending a message so that nobody else will try this? I don't know: again, too new, to weird, no precedent.
It would be seriously political, as anytime there is more than one agency involved, it's always political.
Like others, I can't give my background, but I'd just say I wouldn't count on anybody being left off out of the pie. I know we all figure they want the big guns, but trying to show any kind of linear causation on this one, from the past to now, is way too complicated for me...it doesn't mean anybody needs to get all paranoid or freaked out...just means that you don't want to thro away your TAILS flash drive, or quit using the coffee shop wifi rather than the house cable, just because you are a small time buyer. Maybe they only go after big vendors, that might even be the way to bet. But maybe they don't. Who do I complain to if they bust a bunch of buyers, since that's what they can get?
But I'm betting my personal freedom on what I believe here, just like the rest of us...stakes are pretty fucking high for me to be counting on them acting in a way to my advantage. Maybe nothing will happen, maybe something will happen in the way you predict. And maybe not.
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As long as you and SR can stay anonymous, we all won't go down like these guys. It looks like TOR and bitcoin worked... for now... [sinister laughter]
Serious money there.
The bitcoin as a form of currency, at least in my personal opinion, will be safe as far as anonymity is concerned for some time. As long as those who promote it our use it in order to cover there tracks don't reveal large amounts of information to law enforcement then we more than likely won't have a problem in regards to the future of silk road and other tor based enterprises.
The biggest lesson I think we can learn from this unfortunate incident is to stick to the script in regards to our dealings over the tor network and stay out of the gene pool. IE large, traceable, and retarded transfers using well known means (western union, paypal, etc...) and to remain out of touch with commonly viewed dot com sites.
:D
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...you sound like you have your shit together. But alot of people on here do not. They will be the first to get burned.
This is exactly why The Armory will grow slowly. There are tons of idiots on SR buying and selling. You've got to put your big boy pants on if you want to deal in arms. All this half-assed shit is unacceptable. Don't be the low-hanging fruit.
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It was stupid to take Paypal and the other forms of payment that they did, but the one thing that really stands out to me is how they were fucked by Hushmail. "Private, secure"? That's comical. All email providers who claim that their communications are safe and secure from prying eyes are deluding themselves. Once LE finds an online dealer they'll look for the email account he's using. It doesn't matter what promises that email provider has made, it's all over once the DEA finds the email administrators. The DEA will flash warrants, make threats, and get what they want.
Unless the admins of your email service just can't be found (Tormail) I would never trust the claims made by the email service you use.
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(using the same handle as their facebook profile, etc)
I don't use the same handle as my facebook profile so that means I'm good.
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Use PGP with Tormail. Just in case TorMail was set up and run by the guv. Could say the same for SR.... What if SR was invented by LE because nobody else was getting it right? If you use PGP, even they don't have what they were looking for on their own machine... Using their own trap to get away with it. lol.
I do wonder how easy it would be to pull traffic analysis on TorChat...
When will people admit that the only way to put government back in it's place, is with the same force it uses against us? We shouldn't have to live like this. There are so many more of us than there are of them...
1 in 12 people on this planet have guns. The remaining 11 are why this is happening.
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Amen to that.
PGP seems a little extreme no?
The reality remains the government cannot upload tor clients onto their machines because of the security risk and because of this the likelihood of them building a case on tor network based communications is little to nil. They would need the documents directly saved on a hard disk via notepad or word document in order to make it viable evidence.
Imagine some body walking into langley with a torchain and uploading devil robber.
Ludicrous
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Best not to panic too much. Main danger is LEO maybe catching a seller. Undercover cops are very good at what they do and it would be easy for some to hang about here, make purchases and so on. It is unlikely though. After all do cops hang out on child porn sites? Do they study Arabic to understand the tens of thousands of angst ridden chaps shouting about blowing up this and that. And the other!
The cops may take anyone buying even a gram or so of heroin or coke for sure. If its there they will have it and easy arrests are the bread and butter for cops. The only way they can get that here is if a seller is caught with addresses. SR does not store them but some sellers might be using Microsoft Word to make labels which means that every address is actually stored away as far as I know. Its autosave which does this.
I would not ship any weed to the USA. They seize a few envelopes then they have a handful of postcodes to work with. I think the USA treats weed like some kind of terrorist enabling drug. One bong and your dreaming of going whacked-out with guns and bombs and well no not really actually. Full stop and bee bop.
This Farmers Market sounded like it was asking to be busted. LEA knows that the hidden internet is too big to police. Even Facebook has like a million teeny dealers on there bragging about selling a dime bag and so on. Skype, email, chat forums and bring and buy websites. You can see dealing going on in the local high street in some towns. Top cars in low towns driven by lucky men aged 19 upwards. You can see heroin addicts greet men in cars all over the UK. SR keeps the dealing away from families and kids and nervous older people. Cops can get on with maybe checking out the local shops and parks, kittens in trees to rescue and doughnuts t test out in case they are illegal.
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After all do cops hang out on child porn sites?
Yes quite frequently actually
Do they study Arabic to understand the tens of thousands of angst ridden chaps shouting about blowing up this and that. And the other!
Yes, being able to translate Arabic to English will get you a very high paying job with FBI or CIA
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Amen to that.
PGP seems a little extreme no?
The reality remains the government cannot upload tor clients onto their machines because of the security risk and because of this the likelihood of them building a case on tor network based communications is little to nil. They would need the documents directly saved on a hard disk via notepad or word document in order to make it viable evidence.
Imagine some body walking into langley with a torchain and uploading devil robber.
Ludicrous
PGP isn't an extreme measure it should be seen as a requirement the rest of your post does not parse
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we should all think about what to do for a bit more security.
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There have been some extremely great posts made this thread, and it should serve as a reminder for a variety of reasons. Be safe people, I think I can speak for the entire forum that we don't want to see anyone get busted for dumb shit. The way I see it, big or small time buyers or vendors we all have a target on our backs- the only way to be safe is to think about what you are doing, find a way to improve it, then repeat again.
To open up the discussion further and play somewhat of a devils advocate a bit is anyone worried that the 420 sell could have negative implications? There is going to be a wave of new, inexperienced buyers throwing caution into the wind and waiting to make their first purchase- IMO I think they pose a massive liability to sellers. These will be the ones leaving packages laying out, not using encryption, checking DCN's through Tor, giving their address, facebook and who knows what else out with complete disregard because the thrill of it all will override common sense. The usps will be flooded with a shit ton of drugs all at one time; there will be seizures as unfortunately that's just part of the game. I know the sell is meant to be a celebration of sorts but I just don't like the smell of it. Am I alone here?
We are all comrades one here in more ways that one. So please, even though the FM players in a way got themselves knocked by doing a bunch of careless dumb shit don't miss the message or advice that so many have offered here. Take it seriously.
Peace.
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Silk Road needs to require blood samples from all vendors. That way we can verify that none of them are changelings... We should also interrogate the Cardacian again, we need to make sure he hasn't retained any private keys. And we need random phaser sweeps of the main access areas of SR. Especially near the docking rings,
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I've been holding off posting this until I had the opportunity to chase down a couple of folks and confirm some points. Therefore, I won't bore you with speculation - these are the facts.
a) LE have implied, as have the media, that FM was taken down by tracking down Paypal and WU transactions. This is false.
b) TOR (specifically Roger Dingledine) have been working with the FBI for some time. Apparently, he wasn't given much say in the matter.
c) Code was introduced into Tor several 'security updates' ago (and subsequently removed within days) that contained functionality useful to LE.
I will know more soon but I hope the implications of the above are not lost on anyone.
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Wouldn't surprise me at all if it were true but do you care to divulge how you know this?
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He's not going to be able to say how he knows but I have heard similar and believe it to be true.
After Operation Adam Bomb the next big operation is going to target TOR.
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c) Code was introduced into Tor several 'security updates' ago (and subsequently removed within days) that contained functionality useful to LE.
you're full of shit but I'll humor you anyway. mind posting a link to the diff in the tor repo where this change was made?
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I'm in a privileged position is as close to saying more as I'm going to get. To the guy who posted about difs - that is incredibly naive.
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well good thing I build tor and arm from source then I guess
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My intel led me to believe the FBI were setting up a large amount of TOR exit nodes and using correlation attacks.
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If you build from source, diff the differences with the code tree and understand what you're reading (and you do this with every release) - then yes you're probably safe. ;)
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I personally don't pore over every diff. But it's not like arma and co. are the only people with access to the source tree, I bet there's lots of security people poring over every diff, I know two security guys who have told me that they do this every time they deploy an update of an open source app. So if there was any malicious code pushed to the git I think somebody would have spread the word by now.
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The government and in particular the DEA can say or do anything in order to put the handcuffs on your wrists.
I wouldn't buy into we have hard cut evidence about all your communications with Columbian drug lords because we have access to all your and their tor records...
... then shove you in to the back of a horse and buggy with bars on it
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well good thing I build tor and arm from source then I guess
What does it mean to build from source?
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Computer programs are written by humans in a human readable form called "source code" then transformed (compiled) into a machine readable form called "binaries" by a compiler. Usually when you download a program you are grabbing the binary. But humans can't (easily) see into the inner workings of a binary so there's really no way to tell exactly what it does. So I choose to grab the source, go over it real quick and then compile the program myself.
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There are no seekrit Tor exploits, and the downfall of the TFM was not due to Tor whatever the media claims. Hushmail + Paypal.
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I can't tell you how I know this without compromising my anonymity, but the Michelle Obama IS DPR. you just have to take my word for it. I probably shouldn't even post that much, because I am taking a huge risk in my freedom.
Also, the SR server is orbiting the moon. That is why people have so many connection issues during the daylight hours.
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I've been holding off posting this until I had the opportunity to chase down a couple of folks and confirm some points. Therefore, I won't bore you with speculation - these are the facts.
a) LE have implied, as have the media, that FM was taken down by tracking down Paypal and WU transactions. This is false.
b) TOR (specifically Roger Dingledine) have been working with the FBI for some time. Apparently, he wasn't given much say in the matter.
c) Code was introduced into Tor several 'security updates' ago (and subsequently removed within days) that contained functionality useful to LE.
I will know more soon but I hope the implications of the above are not lost on anyone.
I doubt he cooperates with FBI. Sign one that you don't know anything about Tor is the fact that you call it TOR instead of Tor, which means you probably learned about it from the media and not from academic papers. Doesn't mean your opinion is worthless, but it is a good indication that you are a noob. Second, Tor is open source software and anyone is free to check the source code. I stay in contact with multiple people who regularly follow Tor development and they would notice a backdoor if one was added. I doubt they all will cooperate. Tor has 15 developers and they live in a variety of different countries and audit each others code, compromising Arma will not be enough to compromise Tor in the way you say. Anyway if the code was added and then removed days later only the people and hidden services and relays that upgraded in that time window would have been compromised. Relays and hidden services in particular are usually some versions behind, but even users don't stay as up to date as they should.
My intel led me to believe the FBI were setting up a large amount of TOR exit nodes and using correlation attacks.
I don't understand the preoccupation that noobs have with exit nodes. It is probably because they know that exit nodes can log traffic that exits the network. In reality I am far more concerned about entry guards, if Tor has an Achilles heel it is in the guard nodes not the exit nodes. To do correlation attacks against SR users LE will need to be able to monitor the entry guards of the clients connecting to it as well as silk road server itself (possibly via owning its entry guards), "exit nodes" have little to do with correlation attacks against hidden services and when it comes to Tor to the normal internet the entry guard is still the most vulnerable part not the exit (as far as correlation attacks go).
FM fell because of a combination of using hushmail and insecure payment techniques. The most important security lesson for people on SR to learn is that you are as anonymous as your least anonymized network overlay. The Tor network overlay is a lot better than the paypal or mail systems (for receiving). The most important thing to do is start obtaining your bitcoins anonymously and cashing them out anonymously if you are not already, and understanding that Bitcoin is no better than Paypal unless you take steps to anonymize it yourself with your cash in and out technique, preferably using mixes in addition to this (using mixes by themselves is great for unlinkability but you will still risk money laundering charges).
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There are no seekrit Tor exploits, and the downfall of the TFM was not due to Tor whatever the media claims. Hushmail + Paypal.
Actually there almost certainly are secret Tor exploits, but they are not intentionally introduced by the Tor developers and they were not used against TFM. Tor has had several remote code execution vulnerabilities discovered in it in the past, and if attackers discovered them prior to Tor developers or non-malicious security researchers who cooperate with them, they would essentially be secret Tor exploits.
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Seriously people, if LE had somehow cracked Tor, you really think they would spend 2 years going after some small time open drug forum? Please, they would be cracking down on the hardcore child porn sites before anything else. It LE honestly used that kind of info to take down nothing but TFM, then they are even more hopelessly incompetent than I could have dreamed. It's obvious how TFM was taken down. They were stupidly unsecure and they had no anonymity to hide behind.
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I used to believe this place was safer than buying off the street.
Now not so much.
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I used to believe this place was safer than buying off the street.
Now not so much.
You never hear about all the street busts they do, they aren't as exciting as internet busts so the media never reports it 80% of the time. One look at the current prison population for drugs will let you know how much safer it is to buy/sell on the streets (not at all)
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The most important thing to do is start obtaining your bitcoins anonymously and cashing them out anonymously if you are not already, and understanding that Bitcoin is no better than Paypal unless you take steps to anonymize it yourself
I always appreciate your posts, +1 for you. Let me ask you this. How safe is buying your btc's from sr vendors? like your btc kings, and others? Would these types of transactions be safer? Taking money to your local bank making a deposit and having btc in your SR account 1/2 an hour later? Safer than mt.gox, odolla and other methods of obtaining btc?
Thanks
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I used to believe this place was safer than buying off the street.
Now not so much.
You never hear about all the street busts they do, they aren't as exciting as internet busts so the media never reports it 80% of the time. One look at the current prison population for drugs will let you know how much safer it is to buy/sell on the streets (not at all)
You're right about that as of now. However the SR community (correct me if I'm wrong) is still infantile. Who's to say that what you stated wouldn't change? LE on a street level have to catch you in the act of buying or possessing the illegal substance. It's much easier to eradicate all evidence of any illegal transaction/possession in the physical world as well. The SR method-as secure as it may seem-is still DATA that could leave a trace even if it is a minute one covered in encryption.
Another thing worth mentioning; this is all handled on a federal level. That means someone could end up going to prison for 10 years over buying a few grams of weed, as opposed to getting busted by state LE or even municipal LE and only end up doing some community service for much larger amounts.
Edit: I don't want to come off as if I know it all, I am still a newbie and this is just my humble opinion based off my intuition. I just don't want anything bad happening to anyone here or SR.
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without sounding paranoid, I think LE are doing some of the BTC for moneypak deals on SR. Following the money is a big part of the TFM bust, and I am pretty sure moneypaks can be traced at least to the location that they were purchased. Now they KNOW that someone in your area is using Tor to buy from Silk Road.
Bitcoins are not illegal, so buy them in legitimate places, mix them, then send them to the road. Not only is it less expensive, but much safer. The only set-back is the time it takes. But even a few days delay in the process is better than months or years in jail or on probation.
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I used to believe this place was safer than buying off the street.
Now not so much.
You never hear about all the street busts they do, they aren't as exciting as internet busts so the media never reports it 80% of the time. One look at the current prison population for drugs will let you know how much safer it is to buy/sell on the streets (not at all)
You're right about that as of now. However the SR community (correct me if I'm wrong) is still infantile. Who's to say that what you stated wouldn't change? LE on a street level have to catch you in the act of buying or possessing the illegal substance. It's much easier to eradicate all evidence of any illegal transaction/possession in the physical world as well. The SR method-as secure as it may seem-is still DATA that could leave a trace even if it is a minute one covered in encryption.
Another thing worth mentioning; this is all handled on a federal level. That means someone could end up going to prison for 10 years over buying a few grams of weed, as opposed to getting busted by state LE or even municipal LE and only end up doing some community service for much larger amounts.
True, if you're getting trafficking amounts sent to you over state lines you get triple the time it seems. But anonymous delivery has other benefits like not getting robbed or killed when you go to buy. It's not just the cops you have to worry about :)
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without sounding paranoid, I think LE are doing some of the BTC for moneypak deals on SR. Following the money is a big part of the TFM bust, and I am pretty sure moneypaks can be traced at least to the location that they were purchased. Now they KNOW that someone in your area is using Tor to buy from Silk Road.
Bitcoins are not illegal, so buy them in legitimate places, mix them, then send them to the road. Not only is it less expensive, but much safer. The only set-back is the time it takes. But even a few days delay in the process is better than months or years in jail or on probation.
Gonna have to somewhat agree, LE has used MoneyPak, Paypal and Moneygram and WU in the past to round up "cyber criminals". Moneypak has never been safe, it's a centralized system that works with the cops to flag suspicious accounts. Any MP cashier needs to have unlimited SSN's because they're going to cut off cards sooner than later when you start withdrawing too much. MP was designed for online buying at Amazon.com and other sites, not to load out of state and cash out. Red flag.
There has also been multiple media hype lately on how prepaid reloadable cards are being used by criminals to cash out. You can guarantee the DEA and IRS is going to start busting people using them. Don't have to worry with bitcoin, split it up into a hundred addresses and cash it out to cash in the mail anonymously, or in person. No cards, no banks, no IDs, no trail.
Google 'Prepaid cards an emerging threat' or 'Prepaid cards criminals' and read all the recent news hype bullshit. That's always a good indicator what is to be the next target for law enforcement to spy on and start to make busts. Expect a huge prepaid card drug ring bust soon.
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I would not buy bitcoins in any way that requires me to show a legitimate ID or otherwise seriously compromise my anonymity. Bitcoins are roughly as anonymous as the method used to obtain them, just keep that in mind at all times. The cash out is about as anonymous as the method used to cash them out. Mixes are really good for making it so the feds can't follow the money back to a vendor, but they will make you susceptible to money laundering charges, so my advice is to mix bitcoins and cash in and out in ways that don't require legitimate identification.
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Bitcoins are not illegal.
Having them is.
Spending them on drugs is illegal (hence the anonymity
I let money sit mt gox for every and bought and sold as the market changed. I made a free $100 in a few weeks.
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Bitcoins are not illegal.
Correct.
Having them is.
Wrong. Where did you read that having Bitcoins is illegal?
Spending them on drugs is illegal (hence the anonymity
Spending any type of currency on drugs is illegal. Remember that Tor doesn't anonymize the Bitcoin transaction, it just adds an extra layer of protection for you as a buyer and/or vendor.
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Egmont Group, publishing a lot of good educational articles.
http://www.egmontgroup.org/100casesgb.pdf
few more
http://www.egmontgroup.org/library/download/24
http://www.egmontgroup.org/library/download/25
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I've said before that we tend to get really excited by the most interesting stuff: Tails and Tor, and VM's and I like that myself, but that busts will usually come from just sloppiness and big mouths, same way they always do. They didn't 'crack Tor.
I read the indictment for FM: these guys all knew each other's business, plus they had informants buying drugs. Read the whole indictment. Our weakest link is the simple fact that the vendors have legitimate addresses. No way around that. And eventually, some vendor will get busted with a bunch of product, and he'll probably do like most people do, and at the very least give up all his buyers.
There seems to be a bit of wishful thinking going on: this is essentially summed up as being "The won't arrest buyers, only vendors!" Not true at all: prisons are full of 'buyers'...they get them for possession. It's a felony. And it doesn't matter how much encryption you use, the buyer still decrypts your address...they'll get bunch of publicity and scare the site down...too many presumption about what LE can or cannot do are ridiculous.
I think that it's the nature of the beast, also, to get sloppy over time, not to be so careful, just like the streets, the longer you go without getting cracked, the less likely you think it is. The vendors are probably creatures of habit, like the rest of us...a big vendor could get triangulated, but most likely, they'll just get caught for talking or doing something stupid...
We'll see...hope we rock on for a while, but I got a feeling that when we fall, we'll fall hard.
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I read the indictment for FM: these guys all knew each other's business, plus they had informants buying drugs. Read the whole indictment. Our weakest link is the simple fact that the vendors have legitimate addresses. No way around that. And eventually, some vendor will get busted with a bunch of product, and he'll probably do like most people do, and at the very least give up all his buyers.
There seems to be a bit of wishful thinking going on: this is essentially summed up as being "The won't arrest buyers, only vendors!" Not true at all: prisons are full of 'buyers'...they get them for possession. It's a felony. And it doesn't matter how much encryption you use, the buyer still decrypts your address...they'll get bunch of publicity and scare the site down...too many presumption about what LE can or cannot do are ridiculous.
This bears thinking on. People should always be concerned where the threat to themselves lies. For vendors.. their threats are their own actions (which they can control) and some sort of system/admin failure that shuts down Silk Road. So their personal security habits IRL (i.e. their own responsibility, their own actions) are the paramount issue. Secondly... they should have a "back-up plan" in case SR should go down. I see three possibilities for them..
1. Take biz completely offline, or only deal IRL if they have a IRL business they are running concurrently with their SR operations.
2. Continue vending via secure email/tormail to loyal customers who retain their contact info and are willing to forgo escrow.
3. Migrate to other vending sites with escrow (BMR) or move sales to other .onion sites of their own (like what Pot2Peer and Eradic have).
For buyers... well again they should be concerned about their own actions but it is a vendor failure that should concern them. The vendor has their address (and possibly their real name). If the vendor lacked that bit of info buyers could only be threatened by a system/admin failure of SR proper. Logically then.. buyers should do what they can to minimize the connection between themselves and their mailing address, while still being able to collect their dope.
1. The use of a mail drop, not a home address, is indicated. Mail drops and boxes are almost be definition not places you "hang out". Hence you are only likely to be there at irregular intervals and the only paraphernalia or other dope present when you make pick up is whatever may be in the package being delivered.
2. The mail drop should be registered with a business name as part of the documentation on it. This prevents the vendor (who may be turned or blackmailed by the LE.. ) from giving them a real name.
With the use of these two steps the buyer can keep LE from immediately obtaining a warrant for their place of residence in the event of the LE playing hardball with a vendor.
By employing these two steps the wise buyer has effectively distanced himself from "the low hanging fruit" on the tree that a turncoat vendor could give up to the cops. They don't have a residence. They don't have a name. And at a cost of under $100 USD for a business class mail drop box.
Now .. the next step is to sanitize the paper trail between your public ID and your sleeping place/stash spot. When you get a mail drop (at least in the US) you have to present gov-issued photo-ID. If you live someplace that doesn't do this bully for you.. give them a fake name. If you want to be thoroughly secure obtain false ID. If you can do that ( I can't vouch for SR's ID vendors.. but I know a good risk when I see it) then you needn't follow the rest of the steps.
3. Change your license ID to something other than your place of actual residence. Similarly change the address of registration for any vehicles you may own and insure to addresses that are not where your bed, your bong, and your dope are kept.
Basically do your level best to make sure they have no way to burst in and scare you and find you redhanded with your dope.
Oh and get a lawyer and put them on retainer. Do it before you buy another thing on S.R. Business maildrop and lawyer up. Do it right away.
We'll see...hope we rock on for a while, but I got a feeling that when we fall, we'll fall hard.
"Proper preparation prevents piss poor performance.. and anxiety originating in such" - Philter3's Dad.
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I think SR should lay low for awhile, no more signups for sometime. The community is still profitable, no need to allow leo the easy access or the ability to ease drop.
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I think SR should lay low for awhile, no more signups for sometime. The community is still profitable, no need to allow leo the easy access or the ability to ease drop.
To think they dont already have accounts is pretty naive.....
I have no proof of this, but i believe it to be true 100%.
I have a dream! A dream in which all people can purchase drugs legally without fear of prosecution!
If a hard working, god fearing, all american (or whatever country you're from), adult (21+) wants to enjoy there time with whatever drug floats their boat, then so be it. Responsible drug use is what im talking about.
It would be nice to see in my lifetime, but in the mean time be smart and be safe all!
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Hi all. It's truly unfortunate when things like this happen. In a better world (like one recently discussed at the Summit of the Americas) things like this wouldn't happen. So it goes, however. I suggest you read the court documents that were filed for the case. You can get them at http://www.scribd.com/doc/89690597/Willemsindictment-Filed-045. They paint a very telling picture of the business workings of the site. Excellent reading. If you do the math, they made most of their money off of expensive weed. The Feds made most of their case off LSD carrier weight and numbskulls. BUT who wants to do that shit? That's why I have boiled them down into digest for you guys. Here are the key lessons of this experience in question and answer format:
* "Should I use Hushmail so be 5up3r secret?"
Answer: No. Are you a numbskull? Hushmail has been known to disclose everything they know about you. For further information about Hushmail, start with googling "The Hive bust." They are lilly-white Canadian jerks engaging in SECURITY THEATER. Say "No" to Hushmail.
* "Should I use PGP to protect myself? I don't know if it's effective"
Answer: YES. Well -- yes with a but. PGP, used correctly, is currently the BEST protection to protect against yourself against interception unwanted access to your messages. BUT, If you've given your key to da LEO, it no longer works. It's a wiretap protection and nothing more.
* "Should I send many thousands of dollars in wire transfers to the Netherlands?"
Answer: Unless you want to brag about it -- no.
* "If not the NL, what about a Panamanian offshore holding corporation?"
Answer: Dude no. You don't get it. Wire transfers outside of your country are very suspicious. Even screenwriters know that. Don't do that shit.
* "What about sending them to Brazil? That's cool, right?"
Answer: Are you fucking serious? They sent money to Brazil AND Panama AND the Netherlands?? Who the hell does that? How much? LIKE $150,000?? Wow. That's a lot.
* "Should I use Western Union or PayPal"
Answer: NO DUDE. No.
* "Did they get busted for BitCoins?"
Answer: No. The did not. They got busted for using Western Union, Panamanian wire transfers, and Dave Matthews Band references.
* "Should I openly share ANY of my online account information (Pecunix, Egold, MtGox)?"
Answer: NO. Payment systems beyond BitCoin are always insecure! Pecunix will talk to da LEO and then tell them how shares were transferred to any number of addresses or exchanges, which leads them to more accounts, and then to YOU. Don't give these things out to untrusted parties. Ever.
* "According to this case, do our security measures work well?"
Answer: Pretty much. They got these guys for committing wire fraud basically. That led them to the tangible person behind the screen. That and FUCKING HUSHMAIL are what made this an easy target. But once made easy prey, da LEO just did some easy undercover work and waited them out. As long as you and SR can stay anonymous, we all won't go down like these guys. It looks like TOR and bitcoin worked... for now... [sinister laughter]
I hope my morning coffee rant has been helpful to you. I know it's been helpful to me.
Great dude, thanks for this. 8)
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the idea of LEO selling moneypaks on SR wouldn't surprise me at all. i don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but moneypaks actually have a warning printed on the back along the lines of "moneypak purchases are observed with camera surveillance and greendot will cooperate with LEO to prevent illegal activities relating to moneypaks"
Also, i think when it eventually happens, the mainstream USA media hype about SR will revolve around the ability of minors to purchase easily.
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You have to understand, they were operating before technology like tor and btc were available.
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Granted, they weren't working with the bitcoin, but its my understanding that they were using Tor. So, it looks like they followed the money. since paypal, WU, etc were used. Now. even if mt. gox and other exchanger were to cooperate, it would be very difficult to prove that mt. gox account had anything to do with sr. since sr has a built in mixer. So SR is doing this that are much more difficult to follow, which is good.
Also, it took them 2 years to take down TFM. Im sure that iti wouldnt take much for them to do small busts here and there, but the gov. loves to take down everything at one time, so, who knows what their strategy is. If anyone is nervous, there is no harm in taking a break, just stop all illegal activity. (I have).. Clean house and wait... See what happens.. Everyone will understand. Safety is much more important than a few bucks or getting high.. Just use common sense, take all precautions that you can. You should be fine..
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Granted, they weren't working with the bitcoin, but its my understanding that they were using Tor. So, it looks like they followed the money. since paypal, WU, etc were used. Now. even if mt. gox and other exchanger were to cooperate, it would be very difficult to prove that mt. gox account had anything to do with sr. since sr has a built in mixer. So SR is doing this that are much more difficult to follow, which is good.
Also, it took them 2 years to take down TFM. Im sure that iti wouldnt take much for them to do small busts here and there, but the gov. loves to take down everything at one time, so, who knows what their strategy is. If anyone is nervous, there is no harm in taking a break, just stop all illegal activity. (I have).. Clean house and wait... See what happens.. Everyone will understand. Safety is much more important than a few bucks or getting high.. Just use common sense, take all precautions that you can. You should be fine..
"Adam" used Hushmail since 2006 or so which is fully backdoored by design. They could read thousands of emails from 2006 until Adam stopped using hushmail so already had all their old paypal transactions and wu payments they could track down, not to mention identities of all the vendors since Adam centralized the money, then paid everybody out individually.
Wish you guy's would ban all money exchanging. Let bitcointalk.org do that you're just going to invite feds to use it and scammers are having a heydey in your forums robbing from new users pretending to be legit exchangers.
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If the feds wanted us, their best bet is to become a high volume exchanger here and start recording cash drop adresses, ect. It would make following the money much easier.i agree that the money section should be removed.
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Seriously people, if LE had somehow cracked Tor, you really think they would spend 2 years going after some small time open drug forum? Please, they would be cracking down on the hardcore child porn sites before anything else. It LE honestly used that kind of info to take down nothing but TFM, then they are even more hopelessly incompetent than I could have dreamed. It's obvious how TFM was taken down. They were stupidly unsecure and they had no anonymity to hide behind.
Sad but true: Law enforcement would take a drug bust over a child porn bust any day. The latter is just a bunch of sickos swapping files, the former sees actual money change hands. Money that can line their budgets thanks to asset forfeiture.
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I think LE actually spend far far far far far more resources pwning CP traders than they do on internet drug traders, but that probably has a lot to do with the fact that the internet drug trade is a relative drop in the bucket and the internet CP trade is pretty much 99.99% of the CP trade. They do spend *billions* of dollars to combat internet CP trading though, hardly a month passes without a major CP group (the CP equivalent of the farmers market) being busted.
Also, essentially all of the organized trade groups (ie: not P2P traders) have core members who actually abuse children and share the photos with the rest of the members. In summary, most organized CP trading group members are just a bunch of sickos swapping files, but they rotate around cores that consist of child abusers.
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Also, essentially all of the organized trade groups (ie: not P2P traders) have core members who actually abuse children and share the photos with the rest of the members. In summary, most organized CP trading group members are just a bunch of sickos swapping files, but they rotate around cores that consist of child abusers.
I have grown highly suspicious of any and ALL government and/or authority narratives on CP/child abuse. It's not that CP isn't deplorable.. but I think what is officially said about it speaks more to the goals and aims of LE and statist control than the actual prevalence or patterns that are seen in the CP populations. N.B. This is not an apologia for CP, but rather a statement of suspicion and Thomism regarding the official narrative about why, how and with what frequency.
Information NOT from a LE perspective to educate myself would be welcome of course.
Basically the logic chain goes. they lie about foreign policy/terrorism, they lie about drug use.. why should they suddenly up and tell the truth when it comes to how CP is produced, distributed and marketed?
Skepticism is warranted. The tools they justify for catching CP types are the same tools they will use to suppress dissent or bust people for dope.
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Hi all. It's truly unfortunate when things like this happen. In a better world (like one recently discussed at the Summit of the Americas) things like this wouldn't happen. So it goes, however. I suggest you read the court documents that were filed for the case. You can get them at http://www.scribd.com/doc/89690597/Willemsindictment-Filed-045. They paint a very telling picture of the business workings of the site. Excellent reading. If you do the math, they made most of their money off of expensive weed. The Feds made most of their case off LSD carrier weight and numbskulls. BUT who wants to do that shit? That's why I have boiled them down into digest for you guys. Here are the key lessons of this experience in question and answer format:
* "Should I use Hushmail so be 5up3r secret?"
Answer: No. Are you a numbskull? Hushmail has been known to disclose everything they know about you. For further information about Hushmail, start with googling "The Hive bust." They are lilly-white Canadian jerks engaging in SECURITY THEATER. Say "No" to Hushmail.
* "Should I use PGP to protect myself? I don't know if it's effective"
Answer: YES. Well -- yes with a but. PGP, used correctly, is currently the BEST protection to protect against yourself against interception unwanted access to your messages. BUT, If you've given your key to da LEO, it no longer works. It's a wiretap protection and nothing more.
* "Should I send many thousands of dollars in wire transfers to the Netherlands?"
Answer: Unless you want to brag about it -- no.
* "If not the NL, what about a Panamanian offshore holding corporation?"
Answer: Dude no. You don't get it. Wire transfers outside of your country are very suspicious. Even screenwriters know that. Don't do that shit.
* "What about sending them to Brazil? That's cool, right?"
Answer: Are you fucking serious? They sent money to Brazil AND Panama AND the Netherlands?? Who the hell does that? How much? LIKE $150,000?? Wow. That's a lot.
* "Should I use Western Union or PayPal"
Answer: NO DUDE. No.
* "Did they get busted for BitCoins?"
Answer: No. The did not. They got busted for using Western Union, Panamanian wire transfers, and Dave Matthews Band references.
* "Should I openly share ANY of my online account information (Pecunix, Egold, MtGox)?"
Answer: NO. Payment systems beyond BitCoin are always insecure! Pecunix will talk to da LEO and then tell them how shares were transferred to any number of addresses or exchanges, which leads them to more accounts, and then to YOU. Don't give these things out to untrusted parties. Ever.
* "According to this case, do our security measures work well?"
Answer: Pretty much. They got these guys for committing wire fraud basically. That led them to the tangible person behind the screen. That and FUCKING HUSHMAIL are what made this an easy target. But once made easy prey, da LEO just did some easy undercover work and waited them out. As long as you and SR can stay anonymous, we all won't go down like these guys. It looks like TOR and bitcoin worked... for now... [sinister laughter]
I hope my morning coffee rant has been helpful to you. I know it's been helpful to me.
Nice tip.
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that's right ... i said it.
You are all a bunch of fucking snitches. Every last one of you, and so am I, if any of us were busted and in danger of doing serious time, for instance 15-20 years.
When your freedom and liberty, wealth, homes, vehicles, wife and kids, and virtually every fucking thing you care about is threatened and is in danger of evaporating before your eyes, YOU WILL SNITCH TO PROTECT IT ALL OR MITIGATE OR DECREASE THAT LOSS.
That goes for you, me, every seller and buyer, and DPR himself.
If any of you think otherwise, you're a fucking idiot.
So act accordingly so that can never happen.
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if you follow proper security procedures here, and never talk to the cops without a lawyer, the chance to snitch to reduce your sentence would probably never even come in to play
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if you follow proper security procedures here, and never talk to the cops without a lawyer, the chance to snitch to reduce your sentence would probably never even come in to play
bingo
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that's right ... i said it.
You are all a bunch of fucking snitches. Every last one of you, and so am I, if any of us were busted and in danger of doing serious time, for instance 15-20 years.
When your freedom and liberty, wealth, homes, vehicles, wife and kids, and virtually every fucking thing you care about is threatened and is in danger of evaporating before your eyes, YOU WILL SNITCH TO PROTECT IT ALL OR MITIGATE OR DECREASE THAT LOSS.
That goes for you, me, every seller and buyer, and DPR himself.
If any of you think otherwise, you're a fucking idiot.
So act accordingly so that can never happen.
Remind me never to work with you. Some would rather go to jail than betray their ideology of not snitching, you pretty much just admitted that you are not one of those people.
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that's right ... i said it.
You are all a bunch of fucking snitches. Every last one of you, and so am I, if any of us were busted and in danger of doing serious time, for instance 15-20 years.
When your freedom and liberty, wealth, homes, vehicles, wife and kids, and virtually every fucking thing you care about is threatened and is in danger of evaporating before your eyes, YOU WILL SNITCH TO PROTECT IT ALL OR MITIGATE OR DECREASE THAT LOSS.
That goes for you, me, every seller and buyer, and DPR himself.
If any of you think otherwise, you're a fucking idiot.
So act accordingly so that can never happen.
Remind me never to work with you. Some would rather go to jail than betray their ideology of not snitching, you pretty much just admitted that you are not one of those people.
My thoughts exactly. It's certainly not acceptable to transfer the consequences of YOUR actions to ANOTHER person. You should be fully aware of the sentencing you may face PRIOR to breaking the law. And when the shit hits the fan, man up, and take responsibility for what you CHOSE to involve your self with in the first place. Snitching is like scamming. As in, when you have a transaction, the seller will not do business with you if they find out you want to take their money. Likewise, when you do a transaction, the seller will not do business with you if they find out you are willing to snitch on them. So instead of scamming them of their money, you are scamming them of their freedom. Your viewpoint is extremely immature, and were everyone to assume your viewpoint, then our community would become extremely vulnerable. Being known as an ex-convict for drug charges in the future will likely be much better than being known as someone who snitched on a fellow member of the drug community, which was oppressed by the global governmental control systems of the early 21st century.
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that's right ... i said it.
You are all a bunch of fucking snitches. Every last one of you, and so am I, if any of us were busted and in danger of doing serious time, for instance 15-20 years.
When your freedom and liberty, wealth, homes, vehicles, wife and kids, and virtually every fucking thing you care about is threatened and is in danger of evaporating before your eyes, YOU WILL SNITCH TO PROTECT IT ALL OR MITIGATE OR DECREASE THAT LOSS.
That goes for you, me, every seller and buyer, and DPR himself.
If any of you think otherwise, you're a fucking idiot.
So act accordingly so that can never happen.
Snitches end up in ditches round my parts.............
feel like coming round for a cup of tea ?
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I have a personal code that I ever screw up and get arrested, I will not turn anyone in. I just wouldn't do it. Honestly, it probably wouldn't take that much off my sentence anyways. At times like that you need to man up and accept that the system just beat you. But don't empower the system by giving them more fodder. Look the cops right in the eyes and tell them that you're not helping them. Fight the system from the outside when you can, don't give into it to save your own skin.
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Anyone who thinks the cops are gonna give them a break if you "help", are the worse kind of sucker. Trust, me you will not receive any reduction in your punishment by rolling over. If there is any wiggle room in your case, a good PAID attorney will exploit that for you. Do your fucking time and come out with the kind of respect that must be earned, the kind you can't counterfeit. Call it a retirement plan, or a tenured position at the firm, whatever works.
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Helping the cops is admitting guilt. They often lie to people and pretend they have more evidence than they actually do. By helping them you raise the chances of being locked up. This is why you never talk to cops and you get a lawyer.
Helping cops is the same thing as talking to them. You're hurting yourself.
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This is in reply to all of you who replied to my last post in this thread...
Bullshit. Thats what all the families of the sicillian mafia said who have been doing blood oaths with their family members for hundreds of years, and ya know what, they caved and snitched instead of going to prison. Snitced on their husbands, wives, kids, parents, aunts uncles, grandparents, and cousins. And it was FAMILY. None of us here are even family. So shut the fuck up. You might have that thought in your head NOW, but sitting in a Federal Prison Interrogation Room with Federal DEA and DOJ investigators and prosecutors WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND QUICK.
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Lots of people here admit that they will snitch :/
glad to know who to completely avoid doing any business with ever
of course some in mafia snitch but just as many don't. Also the snitches get put into protective custody for the rest of their lives or they are brutally murdered.
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^Using the Sicilian mafia as an example is poor, the whole nation was corrupt.
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Using the mafia as an example period, is fail. I know that the media would have you believe these families are full of the hardest people on earth, but truth be told, most of them are born into tremendous privilege and about as hard as cotton candy. Like most people with wealth and influence that value that above anything they have. They never actually earned respect, and therefore do not value it or posses any of the genuine article. Not saying all of them, but many in these crime families are nothing more than rich kids living on the reputations their fathers earned.
When you know the truth, which is snitching will not impact your sentence in the least, it's not even a temptation. In the event that you are connected at that level, and you have valuable knowledge like that, you'd be wise to recognize that that hand is best left unplayed. You can roll over and save yourself a couple years at most, but forever lose the trust of the only people who can help you when the system is done with you. I'd rather do shit the right way and even if I had to do a little more time, It would easier time because I could sleep well and my associates would be taking care of me. I'm speaking hypothetically of course. Buying drugs from SR is the apex of my criminal mischief these days and I am certainly not affiliated with anyone the cops would be interested in. I'm just sayin',
It really isn't hard to make the right decision when you're not deluded.
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wow, he admitted to possibly snitching in the future. do what shaggy did!
yo man, open up man,
what?
LE just caught me!
You let LE catch you?
I don't know how i let this happen, the girl next door you know. i don't know what to do
JUST SAY IT WASNT YOU!!!
LE came in and caught me red handed, ordering/selling on SR,
It wasn't me!
Package was delivered to my address, it wasn't me!
they even caught me on camera, it wasn't me!
LE I've been listening to your reason and it makes no sense at all,
if you don't believe me, just give my lawyer a call!
I'm the Ganjabredman, catch me if you can.
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A non-stupid-fuck snitch facing long hard time will not even talk to cops. They negotiate with the prosecutors through their attorneys. Snitching pays if the benefit of the information the prosecutors can use is greater than what they get out of prosecuting you. Then theres the Witness Protection Program, new identities, new credit, new job, new house, new cars/trucks, new life... etc. Some are even paid handsomely for their snitching. I do not advocate snitching, but no one knows what they will do until they are arrested, in prison, and facing investigators, prosecutors, and decades of cold hard time. Fact remains, the majority snitches. The point I am driving home is to take precautions so its never an issue to begin with.
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A non-stupid-fuck snitch facing long hard time will not even talk to cops. They negotiate with the prosecutors through their attorneys. Snitching pays if the benefit of the information the prosecutors can use is greater than what they get out of prosecuting you. Then theres the Witness Protection Program, new identities, new credit, new job, new house, new cars/trucks, new life... etc. Some are even paid handsomely for their snitching. I do not advocate snitching, but no one knows what they will do until they are arrested, in prison, and facing investigators, prosecutors, and decades of cold hard time. Fact remains, the majority snitches. The point I am driving home is to take precautions so its never an issue to begin with.
We should round them all up and kill them as well , during the great LE purge of 2012
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We should round them all up and kill them as well , during the great LE purge of 2012
All we have is supposition and conjecture.
The only way we know for sure who is LE or not is when the busts go down.