Silk Road forums
Discussion => Newbie discussion => Topic started by: HollaHollaHolla on August 08, 2013, 07:47 am
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Eh. I've always browsed on these forums and wanted to actively engage in them; though the whole 50 posts thing (while I understand why) always seemed to keep me away. However, like many others paranoid with the Road being down after FreedomHosting being toppled, I went to the thread "is the road down?" just to browse a bit. After chuckling, I stumbled upon the little debate between StExo and RxKing and felt completely mystified that a long-time vendor could be so adamant against the use of PGP. Astor and StExo did a decent job proving you wrong, but I'd like to weigh in my 2 cents in my first post.
So I'd certainly welcome any debate if either of you happen to stumble upon the Newbie Discussion and join in.
But let me examine a few of your quotes RxKing...
"Now what happens when that vendor that uses PGP decides to write every address down and save them? How did your pgp help you there? It did not!!! It did nothing for you...pgp gives buyers a false sense of security and offers no true security. If you want REAL security as a buyer, then you should only deal with a vendor that would never do something so stupid(as to keep anything at all ever) a vendor that has proven over a long period of time that they should be trusted, and a vendor that knows what the fuck he is doing."
I certainly agree with this sentiment. You certainly have to hope that the vendor knows what they're doing. It's like you said, what happens if they find a written address or a package with your address on it before they get to the post office (it is illegal to open mail though, but LE blows)? But I would argue that a vendor who uses PGP is simply using an EXTRA layer of easy-to-learn protection and doesn't show some unnecessary stubbornness, so I feel as though they should be smart enough to delete any information and take necessary precautions. Unfortunately, when we don't advocate use of PGP there are dumb vendors that will then advocate privnote or other means...While I will of course never use such means, dumb and new buyers will fall prey to this. We could accept the mentality that dumb people get burned, but veterans should be looking out for new members of the road...The more we have using PGP and tor, the safer I feel we become.
However, this is all based on your fundamental belief that the Silk Road is not compromised. You say right before that:
"I for one do not think SR will get compromised. And if I am wrong, and it is, then I do not think an address means anything. In fact I KNOW it does not. Not one person would ever get prosecuted or have anything happen to them based on an address found somewhere on the darknet."
But what about an address attached to a person who's transaction history shows THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars? Would it be smart for their address to be open anywhere if the silkroad is compromised, especially for a smaller than usual purchase? If the vendor somehow were compromised... say he falls for a phishing scam or somehow LE got a hold of their user (hey, its happened)? Sure your argument is that the vendor fucked up but having one password is not the same thing as having two. He could've left the road logged in on his computer when DEA busted down his door and put the barrel to his face. They still can't get that next password for the PGP outta him thanks to our 5th amendment. As for the road being compromised... Here's another quote from you:
"I am sure I have mailed packages to the DEA. As long as the finalize fast and do not ask stupid questions,I am fine with it. I actually treat every single package as if it is going to the DEA or FBI."
If that's how you feel, is it not entirely possible then that the SilkRoad is a giant honeypot or run by LE? Sure it sounds pretty paranoid, but about as paranoid as treating every package as though its going to the DEA. In this fucked up War on Drugs, you'd be surprised by the attempts that LE takes. They could have addresses of the people buying kilos of whatever and having them shipped over seas to whatever country because that text is in the open instead of hidden. You bust a couple people here and there, and you have enough money to keep getting congressional appropriations to fight the very thing you're behind...and viola probably another promotion for popping the guy that got 10 kilos of mdma from overseas; besides you can't get much higher on the food chain without going to the country that sent it, so you just take down the big sharks in your own country. In addition you also consider that maybe you do some shit like this:
"I can mail someone a package and make it come from Boston when I am in Los Angele's. Again, this is not about me and how I ship or what to do or not do."
Sure this may not be what you do...but if you do something even remotely like this, you're passing off my address information to someone else, and its very well (well actually guaranteed given your history) that you didnt encrypt my information before you sent it along so that information is potentially exposed once again. Thanks dickhead!
I do hope you realize that an address exposed only once on the darknet or somewhere else can mean your downfall. Addresses can be saved and crosschecked with ANY MAIL. PERIOD. Ever heard of the Mail Isolation and Tracking program? Started in 2001 after the Anthrax scares (and certainly scary in the pre-PRISM era), USPS takes a picture of EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF MAIL. Flagged addresses can certainly be examined with a more scrupulous eye if they think you're high on that food chain. Likewise, over time, they CAN and WILL figure out patterns; hence why StExo says you can be found. Maybe he can't personally, but if someone really wants to, they probably can. And I'd be more than happy my address isn't anywhere near your computer or residence.
Sure this is all a level of encryption based on paranoia and highly unlikely scenarious; but paranoia is a good thing and keeps you safe. MuhFuckers have families and priors and shit.
AND THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PLACE YOU CAN FIND FAULT IN THE TECHNOLOGY OF PGP; it helps reduce human error. And its so simple. I honestly learned it and set-up my private and public key in about the same amount of time it took to disable scripts and fuck with my settings every time I download a new bundle for tor. So to sit here and deem it "WORTHLESS" or that it "adds nothing"... But that is a blatant lie when it works wonders as an added level of protection which you cannot discount. Its ridiculously reckless that you can have the title of 'hero member' just because you may post so often when you're doing this community a huge disservice. People might actually listen to your bullshit.
PGP is not a second fucking condom; its the birth control, in addition. It's not some second layer that puts you at more risk of the whole thing blowing up. Sure it can have its flaws the same as clear text, but generally its proven safer and more effective.
The only reason you could possibly advocate against using extra protection is that you lack the modicum of intelligence necessary to understand it (and its necessity) or implement it; and you should be prevented from participating in this community when you encourage others to act as reckless as yourself.
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RxKing sounds like a moron.
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Usually this time of the morning I am just browsing the forum casually laughing at the idiots who can't tell their arse from their elbow whilst eating breakfast, but this made me smile haha :). Welcome to the forums mate, hope we see more of each other in the future!
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Thanks StExo. Haven't really joined a forum since the Newgrounds forums way back in the day when I was just a wee lad. It may take me a minute to climb out of here, but I just felt like venting. I too felt a little overwhelmed by PGP at first, but like I said...the only real argument against it is that you lack the intelligence to understand it.
Froot Loops and Silk Road, ftw.
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I will gladly debate with you about this.
Though you need to try and learn the "Quote" system in writing a post as without it...it is very hard to read.
But I think you should know what I am talking about before you debate me.
I have my opinion on this for 17 months. And when I say "pgp is worthless" I am only talking about, in the context of putting your address on the order form. That's it!
Also, as I will do with you, if you disagree with me on a point, then please address that exact point. I will of course do the same.
Also be honest. Do not make up things. I mean you kind of already made some things up...but I will let it slide. I am referring to you saying
Astor and StExo did a decent job proving you wrong
This is laughable! By "decent" do you mean they didn't at all? Please tell me where Astor and StExo proved me wrong!!! It never happened. Actually most people in the tread agreed with me. This is a fact. And both Astor and StExo left the tread. I believe Astor only made one post where he quoted me and then had a response for what I said. You should really read it again. he didn't prove anything. As to StExo I can not even remember what he wrote. But again he in no way proved me wrong. So though you lied in here..or at the very least used poor wording..I will let it slide.
Also what must be pointed out is that I am not paranoid. I do not think that every time SR go's down that the FBI has taken it over. These guys do. If you are going to try and debate me...then stick with facts..and not what if's, or could have's. Stick to real life, real time., actual events. I will do the same.
You can see even in this thread....A troll is the one person that say's something negative about me...Fittesaft. This is a guy that has 30 negative Karma and 2 positive. Also he says nothing other then I sound like a moron. If you want to go through the thread you are referencing earlier...you should see how many people agree with me...and how many agree with STexo/Astor.
Also you will see that Astor,STexo and the like..take this personally. They can't fathom that someone disagrees with them.
I think you should really read the Op you made...It has a lot of holes in it.
I am ready when you are :)
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Eh. I've always browsed on these forums and wanted to actively engage in them; though the whole 50 posts thing (while I understand why) always seemed to keep me away. However, like many others paranoid with the Road being down after FreedomHosting being toppled, I went to the thread "is the road down?" just to browse a bit. After chuckling, I stumbled upon the little debate between StExo and RxKing and felt completely mystified that a long-time vendor could be so adamant against the use of PGP. Astor and StExo did a decent job proving you wrong, but I'd like to weigh in my 2 cents in my first post.
So I'd certainly welcome any debate if either of you happen to stumble upon the Newbie Discussion and join in.
But let me examine a few of your quotes RxKing...
"Now what happens when that vendor that uses PGP decides to write every address down and save them? How did your pgp help you there? It did not!!! It did nothing for you...pgp gives buyers a false sense of security and offers no true security. If you want REAL security as a buyer, then you should only deal with a vendor that would never do something so stupid(as to keep anything at all ever) a vendor that has proven over a long period of time that they should be trusted, and a vendor that knows what the fuck he is doing."
I certainly agree with this sentiment. You certainly have to hope that the vendor knows what they're doing. It's like you said, what happens if they find a written address or a package with your address on it before they get to the post office (it is illegal to open mail though, but LE blows)? But I would argue that a vendor who uses PGP is simply using an EXTRA layer of easy-to-learn protection and doesn't show some unnecessary stubbornness, so I feel as though they should be smart enough to delete any information and take necessary precautions. Unfortunately, when we don't advocate use of PGP there are dumb vendors that will then advocate privnote or other means...While I will of course never use such means, dumb and new buyers will fall prey to this. We could accept the mentality that dumb people get burned, but veterans should be looking out for new members of the road...The more we have using PGP and tor, the safer I feel we become.
However, this is all based on your fundamental belief that the Silk Road is not compromised. You say right before that:
"I for one do not think SR will get compromised. And if I am wrong, and it is, then I do not think an address means anything. In fact I KNOW it does not. Not one person would ever get prosecuted or have anything happen to them based on an address found somewhere on the darknet."
But what about an address attached to a person who's transaction history shows THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars? Would it be smart for their address to be open anywhere if the silkroad is compromised, especially for a smaller than usual purchase? If the vendor somehow were compromised... say he falls for a phishing scam or somehow LE got a hold of their user (hey, its happened)? Sure your argument is that the vendor fucked up but having one password is not the same thing as having two. He could've left the road logged in on his computer when DEA busted down his door and put the barrel to his face. They still can't get that next password for the PGP outta him thanks to our 5th amendment. As for the road being compromised... Here's another quote from you:
"I am sure I have mailed packages to the DEA. As long as the finalize fast and do not ask stupid questions,I am fine with it. I actually treat every single package as if it is going to the DEA or FBI."
If that's how you feel, is it not entirely possible then that the SilkRoad is a giant honeypot or run by LE? Sure it sounds pretty paranoid, but about as paranoid as treating every package as though its going to the DEA. In this fucked up War on Drugs, you'd be surprised by the attempts that LE takes. They could have addresses of the people buying kilos of whatever and having them shipped over seas to whatever country because that text is in the open instead of hidden. You bust a couple people here and there, and you have enough money to keep getting congressional appropriations to fight the very thing you're behind...and viola probably another promotion for popping the guy that got 10 kilos of mdma from overseas; besides you can't get much higher on the food chain without going to the country that sent it, so you just take down the big sharks in your own country. In addition you also consider that maybe you do some shit like this:
"I can mail someone a package and make it come from Boston when I am in Los Angele's. Again, this is not about me and how I ship or what to do or not do."
Sure this may not be what you do...but if you do something even remotely like this, you're passing off my address information to someone else, and its very well (well actually guaranteed given your history) that you didnt encrypt my information before you sent it along so that information is potentially exposed once again. Thanks dickhead!
I do hope you realize that an address exposed only once on the darknet or somewhere else can mean your downfall. Addresses can be saved and crosschecked with ANY MAIL. PERIOD. Ever heard of the Mail Isolation and Tracking program? Started in 2001 after the Anthrax scares (and certainly scary in the pre-PRISM era), USPS takes a picture of EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF MAIL. Flagged addresses can certainly be examined with a more scrupulous eye if they think you're high on that food chain. Likewise, over time, they CAN and WILL figure out patterns; hence why StExo says you can be found. Maybe he can't personally, but if someone really wants to, they probably can. And I'd be more than happy my address isn't anywhere near your computer or residence.
Sure this is all a level of encryption based on paranoia and highly unlikely scenarious; but paranoia is a good thing and keeps you safe. MuhFuckers have families and priors and shit.
AND THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PLACE YOU CAN FIND FAULT IN THE TECHNOLOGY OF PGP; it helps reduce human error. And its so simple. I honestly learned it and set-up my private and public key in about the same amount of time it took to disable scripts and fuck with my settings every time I download a new bundle for tor. So to sit here and deem it "WORTHLESS" or that it "adds nothing"... But that is a blatant lie when it works wonders as an added level of protection which you cannot discount. Its ridiculously reckless that you can have the title of 'hero member' just because you may post so often when you're doing this community a huge disservice. People might actually listen to your bullshit.
PGP is not a second fucking condom; its the birth control, in addition. It's not some second layer that puts you at more risk of the whole thing blowing up. Sure it can have its flaws the same as clear text, but generally its proven safer and more effective.
The only reason you could possibly advocate against using extra protection is that you lack the modicum of intelligence necessary to understand it (and its necessity) or implement it; and you should be prevented from participating in this community when you encourage others to act as reckless as yourself.
Just wanted a record of this OP...so that I can hammer it ;D
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Back in the day when I mailed anything contraband I would have a computer that never saw the internet connected to a USB printer. PGP was encrypted and decrypted on it and used to make address labels alongside legitimate eBay packages in identical packaging with identical contents with somewhat identical weights. The USB drive was wiped after every use and destroyed regularly. Any updates that occurred were scanned by multiple programs to prevent malware/viruses.
Is that a long way to go? Excessive even? Absolutely.
A pain in the arse? Yup.
A bit paranoid? Probably.
In the end I never wanted to be too careful. I would never want to be less than 100% sure that I did everything within my power to prevent anything happening to me. Never had a package seized. I'm not in selling anymore. I don't have any worries that way.
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**BULLSHIT ARTIST / LIAR / POSSIBLY MENTALLY UNSTABLE**
RxQueen has some serious issues. I would advise anyone and everyone considering doing any business with this guy to do some research. Rarely will I used poor language or call someone out... but this guy deserves it, and others will agree both with what I do and what will happen.
RxQueen - you've got some issues. You've tapped into something very real and are playing games. Historically, it has always been a bad idea to be a dick or fuck with people in this "industry". But you've got your head so far up your ass none of this will get through to you.
Also confirmed, and this is the truth... RxQueen is in fact Canadian. He was born there and only moved to the US recently. Bashing his homeland is an attempt to fit in with the American people. we aren't buying it.
Don't even engage this guy. Watch how he responds to this with feigned confusion, insults, rhetorical questions, and outright lies.
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ya nwb
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I dont get why someone who is given the option to add extra security wouldn't "just because it's pointless". The same argument could be said about stealth and using multiple layers in packaging. Ya if the LE already has a good case against you it probably wont do shit, but why scoff at extra security. It may be that one time that it does save your ass. There's a lot of stuff people do that may be a little overboard in the name of security but extra security never hurt anybody. If it gives your customer piece of mind isn't that alone worth whatever hassle it may be to use pgp? Unless of course you're against pgp simply for the attention and if that's the case you're doing a decent job.