Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: kmfkewm on July 26, 2013, 05:08 am
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If you are a big vendor money laundering is important for you. Small vendors can often get away without money laundering, if you are only making a few thousand dollars a year from vending it is pretty easy to spend the money without drawing attention to yourself. However, if you are making tens of thousands of dollars a year from vending then it is important that you know how to launder your money. There are two steps to laundering money, the first is to disconnect the money from any criminal activity. This can be accomplished with Bitcoin mixes, preferably cashing out to a fake ID or with anonymous ATM cards for the ultimate separation (mixing bitcoins but then cashing out to your real ID may unlink you from a particular criminal transaction, but it is better if you are not identified as having a large amount of Bitcoin in the first place). Once you have cashed out and have cash that cannot be tied to a crimial transaction (and hopefully cannot even be associated with you at all yet), you need to be able to pay taxes on the money and account for why you have it. For many vendors a good technique is to open your own business, if you have technical skills I think that technical business are the best of all. Padding your books with drug money is a good way to clean it. Some people sell Christmas trees and pretend to have sold more than they really did, another technique I have heard of is selling fire works. If you work as a waiter you may be able to pad the amount of tips you have received, depending on how the place you work at manages tips. Pretty much any service job is your best bet, be it making websites or doing computer repair. Not only can you derive a legitimate income from such jobs, but you can also very easily pad the amount of income you have made. If you take Bitcoin or similar for the service you offer (which doesn't even look very suspicious if you offer technical services) then it makes it even easier.
Simply offering services like this legitimately and padding your income with drug money is a good way to clean tens of thousands of dollars a year I think. Another technique I have heard of is pretending to have some expensive item and offering it for sale on an auction site, and then being your own highest bidder. Of course you need to take care that the high bidder cannot actually be linked to you.
These techniques probably will not work for the biggest vendors who need to launder hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, but for the vendors who only need to launder tens of thousands of dollars a year I think that these techniques are sufficient. And vendors who are making only thousands of dollars a year can probably get by without actually accounting for how they got the money at all, provided they are not stupid about it. Spend the majority of your legitimate income on things like paying rent or other things that the government might be able to easily see that you did, and spend your drug money on things like groceries, preferably spend the bulk of your drug money on things that you can pay for in cash and use your legitimate money for paying for things that leave a paper trail. If you make sure to do that you can get away with having several thousand of unaccounted for dollars a year without anybody being able to tell.
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And for the big vendors needing to launder $100,000 + a year I think your best bet is to get involved in hosting festivals and events, especially internationally, and padding the amount of people who attend as well as perhaps running some stands and padding the amount of things people bought. Set it up in some foreign country that will not be likely to share any information with your home country and you are even better off.
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hi hi
good post.
TL;DR here is to make sure you have a proper "cover" business that you can legit say is yours, and the income generated (including illicit) from said business makes sense for that particular business, with the docs to back it up.
you MUST pay taxes on it and be able to account for "where" all your income came from. once you do that, it's as if you have a well paying "actual" job :)
doing this properly will allow you to launder hundreds or millions. it makes no difference as long as you set it up correctly, and always give the devil his due. (taxes)
obviously this is easier said than done. but if you're clever, you will persevere.
good luck - enjoy!
xoxo
-mb
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Doing it properly will indeed allow you to launder hundreds or millions, but the more money you try to launder like this the harder it is to actually do it without being noticed. If you have a small business that accepts cash payment you can easily pad your income with anonymous drug cash and nobody will be the wiser, but if you run a small business and make ten million dollars over night in cash people are probably not going to believe you :D. When it comes to big money you need to have front companies and fake identities in other countries and bank accounts and all kinds of shit that I don't really know much about. But if you are working with tens of thousands of dollars extra a year it is a lot less complicated to launder it while staying under the radar and looking legitimate.
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I heard from a buddy of mine that on a hot summer day a hot-dog/smoothie cart can profit $2,000+, especially in the right location.... invest in a business and operate it occasionally, but claim to be operational about 10x more than you are.... a good way to launder in multiple 5 digits per month easy.... and who's to tell you you don't make money off a Hot-dog cart... they make bank!
I knew this guy in NYC who owned 5 hot-dog carts, and he employed people to run them for $13/hr each day... each cart could pull in several thousand on a good day. Jsyk. The owner sits back on his couch relaxing all day while the hot-dog carts rake in money that he gets to keep a vast majority of.
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Have not read it yet but already want to say thank you for taking your time to write this.
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I heard from a buddy of mine that on a hot summer day a hot-dog/smoothie cart can profit $2,000+, especially in the right location.... invest in a business and operate it occasionally, but claim to be operational about 10x more than you are.... a good way to launder in multiple 5 digits per month easy.... and who's to tell you you don't make money off a Hot-dog cart... they make bank!
I knew this guy in NYC who owned 5 hot-dog carts, and he employed people to run them for $13/hr each day... each cart could pull in several thousand on a good day. Jsyk. The owner sits back on his couch relaxing all day while the hot-dog carts rake in money that he gets to keep a vast majority of.
Yeah hot dog stand sounds like a good idea. Firework stand, christmas trees, hotdog stand, anything like that is a really good way to launder money. Not only will you make some legit money, but you can also very easily pad your books without anybody noticing, or even pretend to operate more than you really do. Unless you are under intense surveillance nobody is going to know if you sold 400 or 500 hotdogs on a given day (since you pay for your supplies with cash, hell maybe even drug money), and that 100 hotdog difference could let you launder $200 right there in a single day, $1,000 a week, $48,000 a year.
Technical services are a good bet as well, especially things like programming and taking bids for jobs that can be carried out entirely through the internet. Who is to tell you that you didn't get paid $10,000 to make a program for somebody that doesn't even exist? I mean, if you try to say you made a million bucks in one year writing software for yourself it will look suspicious and you might get investigated, but if you are only trying to launder tens of thousands of bucks a year it is pretty close to the perfect way to do it, especially since you can be paid in Bitcoin or something. The best bet though is jobs where you are paid in cash that is even better than being paid in Bitcoin honestly.
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Nice info kmf, I feel many here will be able to benefit from this post. I knew a guy who would launder all his illicit funds through multiple car shops he owned. He would create forged documents for just 1 and sometimes 2 extra orders a day which allowed him some nice wiggle room for cleaning his money.
Now I wonder if my city will allow me to run a hot dog stand... :p
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Thanks, +1 as you've given me a new idea ;)
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Some of the points made kmf are very true and time tested - such as below $8,000-$10,000 no true laundering is required. However, one note on some of the methods. In court cases in both the US and UK (and probably many other countries too since this is a rather common dispute with precedence set already), it has determined correct reporting of tips is the duty of the employer to keep accurate records since such earnings are not recognised as anything other than regular income payments and so must also be noted on the books of the employer - failing this can land them with a very nasty fine. The tipping culture in the US is far more open and indeed sometimes even expected in many parts, I hear some jobs as a waiter are only $2 an hour with nearly all the income being derived from tips, but elsewhere in the world it is very different and a waiter in the UK earning more than 20% of their wages on tips is doing very well for themselves or is a young female waiter in a pub full of old men.
Now, the likelyhood of being caught for simply beefing up as opposed to directly laundering the ill-gotten gains is remarkably low, but if you are ever asked where additional sums came from, especially in tips, your employer will be interviewed as well as fellow staff and if your earnings are above that of other employees and not typical they can still seize some of your assets. Sure you can get them back in court as it is very unlikely they can prove you gained them illegally, but this process can takes years, especially in the US where around half of the cases go on for several years.
For the mention of the hot dog stand - that's a poor idea, it just has too many flaws and issues that could go wrong for it. For example, you mention paying for supplies with cash - but this doesn't negate the fact for a business you must keep the receipt of your business expenses, since writing it off as an expense with no proof is actually more suspicious and if the IRS/HMRC/FATF take a look at that, you're screwed for either tax evasion or money laundering, plus a fine for falsely under-reporting income straight off the bat with a full audit due. Christmas trees and most tangible objects will be the same - there's simply so many flaws and risks associated with it, one of the most credible risks being these are known professions, the IRS in conjunction with the FATF publish a list of watched professions based upon seasonal and trending changes, both of which (portable food services and independent seasonal tree salesman) are quite high up.
Remember guys - your worst enemy is statistics and if you spike a statistic, your paper trail is going to go under the magnifying glass even if you're not told or aware. If you want to see the extent of that, in the UK, the average person is given a behind-the-scenes audit every 3 years where if they spot anything out of place they automatically refer it to the financial crimes unit for proper investigation. How often this happens with the IRS I don't know, but my sources tell me the US situation after 9/11 is even worse than what the UK's HMRC is like.
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Good point about tangible products StExo. I have a friend who used to launder drug money by selling Christmas Trees but I don't know how much he ever had to clean but definitely in the tens of thousands of dollars. He never got busted for it either, but this was in the mid to late 90's prior to 9-11 so maybe times have changed.
I think a good service is virus removal and computer repair. I see some mom and pop type places (not chain stores) charging hundreds of dollars (wtf!) for professional virus removal and system tune up services, and they all accept cash payment. I don't see how the government can claim that you only actually worked on five systems in a week instead of ten, and that could very well be enough for you to launder $500 a week ($24,000 a month). I suppose it could stick out if you are making way more than any of the other businesses doing the same thing in your area though. For the most part I think the most important thing to do is buy things with cash, without any paper trail. I think I could even spend $20,000 without having to launder it at all, although it would be tricky. Mainly you need to watch out for big purchases like homes, expensive cars and expensive jewels and such. Things that you keep inside of your house are generally safer to buy with non-laundered money, because not as many people will see that you have them. You primarily don't want to look like you are rich despite working at McDonalds or having no job at all. And you especially don't want to have a paper trail showing that you spent all kinds of money, which is why buying private things with cash is generally fairly safe even with non-laundered money. I think if somebody pays $5,000 for a television at a store in cash that it has a really low chance of biting them in the ass, but then again you need to be careful about who you hang out with if you are a drug dealer, and it never hurts to have an excuse ready for how you were able to afford something nice if any of your friends ask.
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laundry mats are a good cash, low audit possibility business - in an earlier life (70s/80s) i owned a few apt buildings (2 6 unit and 1 12 unit) and learned real quick, the frigging laundry machines in the basement were money makers (even with low population building (the 6 units were 3 bedroom apts, so a total of 18 people), what with the security door entrance and most of my tenants were female) their friends and boyfriends would bring their laundry over to my bldgs to do it while they were banging their girlfriend, whatever
two machine sets (washer/dryer) each in the 6 unit buidlings, and 3 machine sets, on average brought in $210/225 per set and this was when machines were set to $0.75 per
can't imagine what a laundrymat in a good location (ie in/around a university) does on a good day, and it's all in cash
the negatives - a roofer's wife will bring in his clothes dirty with tar (not to ruin her own machines at home) and it's a bitch to clean that machine.
if you own a rental property, put the machines in, only to claim the income from the machines, even if they're never used
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laundry mats are a good cash, low audit possibility business - in an earlier life (70s/80s) i owned a few apt buildings (2 6 unit and 1 12 unit) and learned real quick, the frigging laundry machines in the basement were money makers (even with low population building (the 6 units were 3 bedroom apts, so a total of 18 people), what with the security door entrance and most of my tenants were female) their friends and boyfriends would bring their laundry over to my bldgs to do it while they were banging their girlfriend, whatever
two machine sets (washer/dryer) each in the 6 unit buidlings, and 3 machine sets, on average brought in $210/225 per set and this was when machines were set to $0.75 per
can't imagine what a laundrymat in a good location (ie in/around a university) does on a good day, and it's all in cash
the negatives - a roofer's wife will bring in his clothes dirty with tar (not to ruin her own machines at home) and it's a bitch to clean that machine.
if you own a rental property, put the machines in, only to claim the income from the machines, even if they're never used
No they're a poor choice. If you know about them or many people know, it is automatically a poor choice as I guarantee the FATF are already all over it, I've destroyed the laundromat idea many times over on this forum, it just doesn't work, they can and will know if you are using it for laundering purposes quite quickly when you submit your annual returns. The residential block is a new option or way of doing it, but again unless it is a huge residential block, the amount you can realistically push through it is low before questions get asked.
Online services are the best. Especially various creative trades. There are thousands of people out there who get paid $10,000-$50,000 and upwards of $200,000 for creative trades from very high ranking celebrities, and a lot of these people excessively flaunt their cash so having it all in cash can easily be explained.
Honestly all the IRS cares about is that you pay your taxes and there is not an obvious drug money connection. While it may not be a realistic comparison, if you look at the movie scar-face, they brought all of their drug money straight to the bank under the guise of a realtor company.
Just gotta be creative and don't trust any one method. It's not the method that counts but the throughness of it, how well it will fly to the tax man, etc.
Incorrect, the IRS care about results, they're one of the most target orientated government organisations there is and they usually just about scrape their target so they're pretty desperate to catch anyone out. Online options are also quite dodgy unless you can set up a sophisticated system and provide a fully auditable path - do not forget they do not need a reason to seize your assets as it is your duty to ensure you can account for all revenues and expenditure and failing to do so means they can take it with court cases panning out years.
Scarface reference: It's a movie, there's no way in hell you could pull that off today in the way they present it, especially not in this current day and age. To do it through property is a different approach entirely.
Your last point is quite true, but the better option is to ensure you can create a fully auditable path of funds so even if you are the most highly suspected person on their watchlist for possible money laundering and setting off all kinds of flags, you can still continue as normal and not have to worry, that's the difference between a launderer and a good launderer.
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There's something obvious that isn't being addressed so far. The methods described here, so far, start from the point where the dealer has cash in hand, which isn't relevant to someone on SR, who is starting with digital funds. If you're doing a brisk business, the DEA and IRS isn't going to be impressed when your digital abstract expressionist art on ebay is mysteriously being bought only by shadowy anonymous reloadable cards.
The common, known typologies being referred to here so far can be found in World Bank and UN drug reports, as well as FINCEN docs and criminology textbooks. It's out in the open since there's no risk in the feds letting everyone know the typologies they can combat. However they won't tell you about the typologies they can't effectively combat.
For one example, if you read the leaked State Department stuff it names third-world countries with a combination of a banking infrastructure and poorly paid LE officials open to bribes. There are funny stories of mansions being built on dirt roads in West African countries where LE is mysteriously uncooperative and far wealthier than they should be on a local salary. One report mentioned that the only jail in the entire country was a three bedroom house without locks on the doors.
I wouldn't trust anyone's laundering scheme until I know exactly what they're doing. I also wouldn't trust any scheme that requires you trust anyone, including the launderer, with your identity. Laundering isn't something I'd outsource unless you're talking to a prince from Dubai or other person somehow clearly beyond the law.
Don't be deceived into believing people are "getting away with" something just because they haven't been caught yet or are simply too smalltime to be on the radar.
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There's something obvious that isn't being addressed so far. The methods described here, so far, start from the point where the dealer has cash in hand, which isn't relevant to someone on SR, who is starting with digital funds. If you're doing a brisk business, the DEA and IRS isn't going to be impressed when your digital abstract expressionist art on ebay is mysteriously being bought only by shadowy anonymous reloadable cards.
The common, known typologies being referred to here so far can be found in World Bank and UN drug reports, as well as FINCEN docs and criminology textbooks. It's out in the open since there's no risk in the feds letting everyone know the typologies they can combat. However they won't tell you about the typologies they can't effectively combat.
For one example, if you read the leaked State Department stuff it names third-world countries with a combination of a banking infrastructure and poorly paid LE officials open to bribes. There are funny stories of mansions being built on dirt roads in West African countries where LE is mysteriously uncooperative and far wealthier than they should be on a local salary. One report mentioned that the only jail in the entire country was a three bedroom house without locks on the doors.
I wouldn't trust anyone's laundering scheme until I know exactly what they're doing. I also wouldn't trust any scheme that requires you trust anyone, including the launderer, with your identity. Laundering isn't something I'd outsource unless you're talking to a prince from Dubai or other person somehow clearly beyond the law.
Don't be deceived into believing people are "getting away with" something just because they haven't been caught yet or are simply too smalltime to be on the radar.
I haven't been caught but we've had many grillings, never had a crack before, only a few issues which were easily fixed which are to be expected in everything since no audit is flawlessly passed, not even an accountant could probably do that funny enough. I don't launder for people, I just give them the methods to their circumstance and they can evaluate it themselves of course that way and help them understand why it works, not just how.
Cashing out bitcoins isn't too hard if done right, I offer services privately and work with a fair few vendors sending them cash in the mail, most others have their own methods and I even help with cashout methods. Most people are just stuck trying to buy a car for example or trying to move their money into a safer place than their home country, notably the US.
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You could always send bank wires through exchangers, used to be easy with Liberty Reserve probably still is with Pecunix. Then you can show that your money came from bank wires, and not have them tied to you, but if the feds dig into it they will see all of the bank wires / wires went through E-currency exchangers and fake identities prior to that.
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I haven't been caught but we've had many grillings, never had a crack before, only a few issues which were easily fixed which are to be expected in everything since no audit is flawlessly passed, not even an accountant could probably do that funny enough. I don't launder for people, I just give them the methods to their circumstance and they can evaluate it themselves of course that way and help them understand why it works, not just how.
Cashing out bitcoins isn't too hard if done right, I offer services privately and work with a fair few vendors sending them cash in the mail, most others have their own methods and I even help with cashout methods. Most people are just stuck trying to buy a car for example or trying to move their money into a safer place than their home country, notably the US.
Many grillings without issue but no audit is flawlessly passed? I'm not following this. Maybe I'm missing something. It strikes me as odd that so many of your clients are singled out for criminal/tax audits. I'm finding you a bit hard to follow in the second paragraph but you seem to be saying that you cash out bitcoins by sending clients cash in the mail.
Ultimately there are two strategic problems anyone must overcome when laundering. One is the informant problem and the other is the follow-the-money problem. A flawless audit trail doesn't mean much when you're indicted on a drug conspiracy and the guy who sent you the money identified you and squealed.
So far, we'ge got people talking about using typical typologies starting at the point of cash-in-hand, which work to some degree and aren't mysterious. The security flaw here is obviously the informant problem since the cash arrived in your hand somehow, and that person knows what you do/did/who you really are/ or at the very least where your cash is going to be at some point in time. Unless the receiver of cash is a sophisticated counter-surveillance guru who's able to thwart possible surveillance of the cash, this is a huge security risk.
I asked about the more relevant problem here on SR of going from digital BTC to another national currency and you openly admit that to cash out BTC you just mail people cash?!
Let's try again. How do you solve the follow-the-money problem going from digital BTC to another national currency? The rough sketch should be less than three sentences. That's an open invitation to anyone reading this, not just StExo.
StExo, if your services are really that individualized, you shouldn't stand to lose any business by giving us your short sketch. MBAs don't lose business by teaching people about business and psychologists aren't going out of business because Dr. Phil's on the TV. I'd imagine almost anyone reading this is either wanting the money, probably on the scale of six figures or less, here in the US, or outside the US, in a way that's spendable. That's only two scenarios, let's assume both starting with BTC.
Furthermore, StExo, the individualization of method you claim isn't an identical problem when starting with digital as it is when starting with cash-in-hand. With cash, it gets padded into a legit business in some fashion. The plausible deniability comes from the legitimate business activity. It's individualized in the sense that a plumber wouldn't launder exactltly like a hot dog stand. One does an "extra job" and one sells an "extra soda." No surprises here.
However when the investigation starts with money in a digital account of any type, the origins of the funds are traceable in both directions, the origin and destination - for someone motivated enough. The national currency in the account entered into digital form in some way. How did it do this in a way that looks legit? (A bunch of transactions for services mysteriously all paid with anonymous debit cards isn't "looking legit.") Where do they lose the trail in this scenario? Corruption of investigations?
I'm calling everyone's bluff. The answers should be concise and specific. I'll go first: "Corruption" is one word. "Offshore with lax KYC" is four words. Revealing both of these didn't just ruin anyone's business model. Let's hear what you've got.
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Mixed coins cashed out with multiple fake ID's at multiple Western Unions
Mixed coins cashed out with underground anonymous ATM cards from Russia
those are two techniques I know many people have used, although it is worth pointing out that getting a fake ID from the wrong vendor or cashing out via ATM card from the wrong vendor could amount to turning yourself in. Both of these techniques were the standard methods vendors used to cash out in the past (of course in the past "coins" would be "liberty reserve" and "mixed" would more often than not actually be "bounced around").
Mixed coins sold to trusted big buyers who frequently need Bitcoins
That is fairly common as well actually. Big vendors get lots of coins. Big customers need lots of coins. When a big vendor knows somebody who is a big customer, they can often help each other out. Of course this introduces risk as well, but it is arguably not worse than the risk of getting multiple fake ID's for cashing out or getting an anonymous ATM card. Most methods of cashing out require that you trust at least one other person I think :(. I have been able to cash out 5 figures of Bitcoins just by having a trusted contact who needed that much. I would honestly be *very* hesitant to have some random person on SR mail me cash though (actually I probably just wouldn't do it, honestly), but thankfully I have enough trusted contacts that I have known for many years that I never have problems buying or selling Bitcoins anonymously. Most of the people I would do such business with I have known for 7-10 years and have a high degree of faith that they are not the police at this point, tho I guess Celtic operated undercover for almost 6 years on carder.su so knowing someone a long time without getting busted doesn't actually prove much in itself :/
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Go as digital as possible and don't cash out more than you need to live on while in operation? Then when your done move to another country and cash out there anyone asks you were an early adopter and used to mine?
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How about doing something like antique trading, actually buy old furniture and big stuff at markets and such then sell them at auction, get your friend to turn up and win the auction using doggy money. You get to keep all the receipts and receive large cash payments. You would have to pay for auctioneer costs.
any good?
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I would love someone to try and reply to 99herps ideas but I don't know enough.
You say that StExo wouldn't lost any business buy giving us the longer version..
But then you go on to say that you are giving us a hint of how to do it : "Corruption" is one word. "Offshore with lax KYC" is four words. Revealing both of these didn't just ruin anyone's business model."
are you LE :P ? How about you go into detail and tell us your idea of the safest way to launder ?
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I found a wonderfully thought-provoking clearnet article regarding digital money laundering here (a seminar from the University of Miami School of Law):
http://osaka.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/seminar/papers/bortner.htm
It's copyrighted 1996, so it's a little dated. Substitute "bitcoins" where "ecash" is referenced, and it remains largely relevant, though.
99herps: I've enjoyed your posts and truly appreciate your skeptical take on the subject. Please, continue ;)
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99herps: Yes, you completely have misread my post. My money laundering consultation, cash-out consultation and cash in the mail are 3 seperate services, they are not together at all.
And yes actually, I can provide a fully auditable path for vendors, there are many here, hell go read the damn article on me, the journalist known the identities of some of my clients who agreed to message him to confirm they worked with me, some of SR's top guys who are far more paranoid than you are on the subject.
"Many grillings without issue but no audit is flawlessly passed? I'm not following this. Maybe I'm missing something. It strikes me as odd that so many of your clients are singled out for criminal/tax audits. I'm finding you a bit hard to follow in the second paragraph but you seem to be saying that you cash out bitcoins by sending clients cash in the mail. "
When you are audited, they look for things such as tax over/underpayments, some things wrongly classified as expense or missed out etc, if you've ever owned a legitimate business, which you clearly haven't, you would realise this. Also, anyone who earns a large amount of money is subject to more audits, this is very obvious and shouldn't need explanation.
Also, my plans are to the individual because every country has different laws, record keeping requirements, tax rates and paperwork to fill out, no one model can fit every purpose. Every plan I give away is another model I can't use so yes I do stand to lose out by dislcosing that actually, it's a hint for investigators to follow and even getting a whiff of an idea and they will almost definitely investigate it.
Please re-read my post history, realise I am not some cheap knockoff with others can vouch for and with enough clients that I actually have to reject most of them these days, and nobody coming here crying I have ripped them off or whatever or they've landed in trouble, do you think it is really that possible that I am a fraud or doing it wrong? Your skepticism is well placed, somebody like me and my services need to be questioned because laundering for big vendors is a serious issue, but in order to do so constructively and meaningfully you must first not misinterpret my words and secondly understand business - neither of which you have done in that post.
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Go as digital as possible and don't cash out more than you need to live on while in operation? Then when your done move to another country and cash out there anyone asks you were an early adopter and used to mine?
Yes, because bitcoin is a stable currency, it is best to keep all assets in bitcoin.
Because antartica is so temperate, we should have colonized there centuries ago.
Because hushmail claims user anonymity, we should use that instead of tormail.
Because DPR is such an incompetent leader, we should all go over to atlantis.
I'd do more, but you get the picture. If bitcoin was a viable option for asset storage, do you really think you would be the first person after several years to ever suggest it? That alone should have deterred you from saying what you said. Not to mention that, well, bitcoin could be $50 tomorrow.
As far as the OP is concerned, nice thoughts, but as the second poster said, it can basically be summarized as "cash out btc, haphazardly launder it in a random cash business." However, anyone who is earning in a serious fashion (>$10,000 per month) and is serious about their security, would not take such an approach. Lots of reading needs to be done, on top of consulting with a well-reviewed professional.
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ML is the most fun part of this whole game, hands down.
Shipping drugs in the mail gets old fast, but creative laundering is like creating a great painting.
I quote Michelangelo, "A man paints with his brains and not with his hands."
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Go as digital as possible and don't cash out more than you need to live on while in operation? Then when your done move to another country and cash out there anyone asks you were an early adopter and used to mine?
Yes, because bitcoin is a stable currency, it is best to keep all assets in bitcoin.
Because antartica is so temperate, we should have colonized there centuries ago.
Because hushmail claims user anonymity, we should use that instead of tormail.
Because DPR is such an incompetent leader, we should all go over to atlantis.
I'd do more, but you get the picture. If bitcoin was a viable option for asset storage, do you really think you would be the first person after several years to ever suggest it? That alone should have deterred you from saying what you said. Not to mention that, well, bitcoin could be $50 tomorrow.
As far as the OP is concerned, nice thoughts, but as the second poster said, it can basically be summarized as "cash out btc, haphazardly launder it in a random cash business." However, anyone who is earning in a serious fashion (>$10,000 per month) and is serious about their security, would not take such an approach. Lots of reading needs to be done, on top of consulting with a well-reviewed professional.
First off never said bitcoin said digital, very big difference. Where did the Antarctica comment come from? Never said anything about hushmail? Never criticized dpr? don't quite understand where you were going to with that? Maybe trying to make yourself feel better about your incompetence who knows.
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Mixed coins cashed out with multiple fake ID's at multiple Western Unions
Mixed coins cashed out with underground anonymous ATM cards from Russia
those are two techniques I know many people have used, although it is worth pointing out that getting a fake ID from the wrong vendor or cashing out via ATM card from the wrong vendor could amount to turning yourself in.
Mixed coins sold to trusted big buyers who frequently need Bitcoins
...Most methods of cashing out require that you trust at least one other person I think :(. I have been able to cash out 5 figures of Bitcoins just by having a trusted contact who needed that much. I would honestly be *very* hesitant to have some random person on SR mail me cash though (actually I probably just wouldn't do it, honestly)...
tho I guess Celtic operated undercover for almost 6 years on carder.su so knowing someone a long time without getting busted doesn't actually prove much in itself :/
There we go. Thanks for being candid kmfkewm. Some people apparently have more of an appetite for risk than myself. Smile for the cameras at WU and the ATM guys.
hell go read the damn article on me, the journalist known the identities of some of my clients who agreed to message him to confirm they worked with me,
I was trying to be nice and not call this one out, but now I have no choice. For one, the facts are all self-reported. His source is you for 99% of the claims. Plus he throws in some supposed client testimonials neither he nor we have any way to independently verify. If you'd just say, candidly, like kmfkewm above, what it is that you do, we could judge the sophistication of what you do ourselves, rather than the current situation which relies on nothing more than creating mystery and vague unverifiable claims, reputation of mysterious origin, or trust.
if you've ever owned a legitimate business, which you clearly haven't,
You don't know me. You're wrong about that claim anyway. But this isn't about me. You're the one making the claims about laundering which rely on mystery and unverifiable claims, not me. That you would make this kind of comment is revealing of your character.
Also, my plans are to the individual because every country has different laws, record keeping requirements, tax rates and paperwork to fill out, no one model can fit every purpose. Every plan I give away is another model I can't use
Again, you're talking a bunch without actually saying anything. What you appear to be doing is avoiding answering simple questions by trying to create some huge mystery where there is none and by verbosely answering questions that I never asked. kmfkewm understood the question I asked, he answered in a few one-sentence answers just like I did and we made some progress in the discussion. Nothing he or I said required that anyone trust anyone or rely on anyone's reputation to evaluate their claims.
Please re-read my post history, realise I am not some cheap knockoff...
"Please trust me guys" won't cut it for thinking people. Posting on a forum doesn't make anyone an expert. I can't find any posts where you've given a quick sketch of where you believe you lose the digital money trail. Only with a rough idea of where you claim to lose the money trail can we evaluate the security of your services.
I'll give you one more chance to answer the question that I posed and kmfkewm admirably engaged us on. SR starts with BTC, which is in digital form. It gets turned into a national currency at some point in the laundering process. Because it's a digital trail, unlike cash, the trail can be easily traced, even offshore (through SWIFT). So what's the answer when an investigator asks how it got there? At what point is any of this traceable to legitimate economic activity?
Ultimately, how/where do YOU lose the digital trail? Your short answer to this will tell us everything we need to independently evaluate your laundering sophistication. "I use a mixer then anonymous cards at atms" or "I pay off investigators/princes in third-world countries" gives us all the insight we need without ruining your game. Let's hear your short answer, preferably without insulting anyone this time.
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Ultimately, how/where do YOU lose the digital trail? Your short answer to this will tell us everything we need to independently evaluate your laundering sophistication. "I use a mixer then anonymous cards at atms" or "I pay off investigators/princes in third-world countries" gives us all the insight we need without ruining your game. Let's hear your short answer, preferably without insulting anyone this time.
The only insult here is your approach to me and my clients. Of course I can't back it up, I'd sacrifice client privacy which is something I hold dear. The journalist is independent, mail him yourself as his email is on the site and he writes for several other online blogs, he verified them not me and to say I need to verify my story is a ridiculous proposal, that will simply remove the anonymity I maintain.
If you really want to know, pay for my services and if you don't like it, you get a refund, it's that simple but for now, your brazen misunderstanding of the entire point of my service is insulting to this forum.
You mention many times about where I lose the money trail - that is part of laundering is obfuscating the true path but leaving something for investigators to look at and acknowledge against records. Revealing that is effectively revealing my method because any old fool can cash out.
Again, you're talking a bunch without actually saying anything. What you appear to be doing is avoiding answering simple questions by trying to create some huge mystery where there is none and by verbosely answering questions that I never asked. kmfkewm understood the question I asked, he answered in a few one-sentence answers just like I did and we made some progress in the discussion. Nothing he or I said required that anyone trust anyone or rely on anyone's reputation to evaluate their claims.
Again you're rewording the question. Revealing methods or verifying claims is going to put me at risk, and you seem to be another member who pops up from nowhere to question me then heads into the shadows. My reputation around here is because I've actually had enough clients to bring good word to me. For vendors to reveal publicly they're using me is an issue too, I know a vendors details for parts of their plan and if I was caught, an open admission a vendor works with me could go against them if LE found evidence, there is a vendor roundtable and also private messages for this reason - again I refer you to ask admins to check my feedback if you think I don't have clients.
I'll give you one more chance to answer the question that I posed and kmfkewm admirably engaged us on. SR starts with BTC, which is in digital form. It gets turned into a national currency at some point in the laundering process. Because it's a digital trail, unlike cash, the trail can be easily traced, even offshore (through SWIFT). So what's the answer when an investigator asks how it got there? At what point is any of this traceable to legitimate economic activity?
You again, are asking me to reveal how I do this, that is what I discuss with clients and what I don't release in public.
If you really think you can do a better job then feel free to offer it like I did, see who takes it and what feedback you get. If you can't, then you most likely just don't know how and another of the many people I debate with who has been on Google a bit too much for their own good without really going through the system because theory does not equal to practice and there are too many people around here who may believe they know how to launder, but never done it themselves.
"Let's hear your short answer, preferably without insulting anyone this time. " - Sure. Go pay for the listing and if you're unhappy, you get a refund, but you'd be the first to ask for one. I am perfectly at will to insult who I like here, nobody really can deny that, but when people come along questioning me with the same question which I clearly state cannot be answered without effectively making redundant some of my services or putting clients in danger, I am at full right to tell you to go stuff yourself because so far, no other reputable launderer has ever criticised my work and my competition would be the first to point out my flaws.
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Maybe we can bring this back to a point where we can all communicate without animosity.
The salient point seems to be: How does one introduce the unconventional bitcoin world into the traditional laundering method, which is to claim illicit income along with/in place of legitimate income with adequate record keeping for taxation purposes?
I have to admit, the question, at least phrased as it is, is begging for a gimme. If the answer was clear, why would anyone consult StExo? Why should he indulge us all with the answer (assuming he has it)?
But at the same time, we're in a new era. A digital one. The same could have been said in the earliest days of money laundering itself. How does one turn dirty money clean? The answer was as simple as it was opaque: claim illicit income along with/in place of legitimate income with adequate record keeping for taxation purposes. It's the question of 'how' that is so vexing.
Really, the answer that THAT question is a little imagination. It would seem to my admittedly uninformed opinion that money laundering is 20% technical and 80% creative, which is to say that the narrative needs to fit a certain situation very well to even pass the laugh test before the technical side even comes into play (while acknowledging that the technical side is most likely to bring additional attention in the first place).
Please, call me out if what I'm saying is completely idiotic. I think this thread has a lot of potential.
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Maybe we can bring this back to a point where we can all communicate without animosity.
The salient point seems to be: How does one introduce the unconventional bitcoin world into the traditional laundering method, which is to claim illicit income along with/in place of legitimate income with adequate record keeping for taxation purposes?
I have to admit, the question, at least phrased as it is, is begging for a gimme. If the answer was clear, why would anyone consult StExo? Why should he indulge us all with the answer (assuming he has it)?
But at the same time, we're in a new era. A digital one. The same could have been said in the earliest days of money laundering itself. How does one turn dirty money clean? The answer was as simple as it was opaque: claim illicit income along with/in place of legitimate income with adequate record keeping for taxation purposes. It's the question of 'how' that is so vexing.
Really, the answer that THAT question is a little imagination. It would seem to my admittedly uninformed opinion that money laundering is 20% technical and 80% creative, which is to say that the narrative needs to fit a certain situation very well to even pass the laugh test before the technical side even comes into play (while acknowledging that the technical side is most likely to bring additional attention in the first place).
Please, call me out if what I'm saying is completely idiotic. I think this thread has a lot of potential.
No you make very good points but to answer about why people consult me is usually for critique. Many people have the same idea of what to do and don't understand business principles, accounting and finances very well so they very much rely on information they've googled which we all know isn't too reliable and it is the confidence issue of the matter, some vendors even make their own ideas which perfectly hit the nail on the head, but they want somebody who does it all the time to try critique it or find something wrong in their plans if possible and outline the best attack vectors for LE.
The balance is more 20% creative and 80% technical to be honest however, you do need to think inside the box really because everyone is thinking outside of it, or at least they think they are. To ensure everything functions well however, you've got to understand the principles behind ideas and find ways to reduce your tax bill as there is no point in laundering the money if you get nothing back from it due to losses on taxes, bank fees, business charges etc and so tax reduction or avoidance strategies which won't set alarm bells ringing is another advantage of using a professional, although you can usually get the same advice from an account but this comes with the obvious risk of them probing you for information of what your business is etc.
So yes, some of my work is simply checking for vendors their methods, giving feedback on how to improve and make it more efficient, others just don't have a clue where to start and go from scratch with them and the final category of customer is the clever one who has taken lots of time to read proper papers on the matter from the FATF, come up with their own strategies, done short accountancy/business/bookkeeping courses etc and have a good idea that they don't need my help with and I just tell them good luck and I am here if they do ever need help or advice, although people that good aren't very common.
I'd post more but my next post is my 1000th I believe and I have to write my 1000th post address :)!
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Let the record show yet another huge, evasive non-answer from StExo. If anyone would trust someone who evades an answer that CAN be so simple, you're more trusting than I. I don't have anything else to say regarding StExo since I've accomplished what I wanted to do here already.
Maybe we can bring this back to a point where we can all communicate without animosity.
The salient point seems to be: How does one introduce the unconventional bitcoin world into the traditional laundering method, which is to claim illicit income along with/in place of legitimate income with adequate record keeping for taxation purposes?
I have to admit, the question, at least phrased as it is, is begging for a gimme. If the answer was clear, why would anyone consult StExo? Why should he indulge us all with the answer (assuming he has it)?
But at the same time, we're in a new era. A digital one. The same could have been said in the earliest days of money laundering itself. How does one turn dirty money clean? The answer was as simple as it was opaque: claim illicit income along with/in place of legitimate income with adequate record keeping for taxation purposes. It's the question of 'how' that is so vexing.
That's a nice way of asking what I've been asking the whole thread. One thing you can verify for yourself is this: You can read criminology textbooks, World Bank ML reports and FINCEN reports, which are all public, and see for yourself that all of the typologies discussed in them COULD be described in a few sentences at most. It's only in this thread that things get spectacularly baffling with endless combinations and possibilities being eluded to.
I'm bowing out of this thread. I don't see this discussion going anywhere. Good luck guys.