Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: sharonneedles on May 29, 2013, 03:43 pm
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Is the selling of non-illegal products illegal to do on Silk Road network? i.e is the selling of legal products on SR permitted under current law, or is the actual act of partaking in SR transactions strictly illegal?
Thanks
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My guess would be that selling non illegal products wouldnt be illegal. There would have to be a specified law against SR. They may be able to get you on tax evasion however.
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Wouldn't they be able to use RICO on a headshop vendor?
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Probably depends on the country, but I'm guessing no. Here's another thread about SR legality issues:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=159987.0
Based on that info, legal items on SR should be legal to buy and sell.
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Not sure - don't forget that you're financially supporting (and profiting from) a criminal enterprise by selling here ... so, there's that. Then again, others know better than I do about this issue.
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It would be very hard to argue that the paraphernalia isn't for drugs. It is illegal to sell drug paraphernalia in the US. Water pipes, wired rolling papers and pipes with a carb are all illegal to sell under federal law in the US.
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Yeah I'm sure it's illegal in the sense of tax evasion and there are individual counties/states/cities that outlaw legal substances such as spice, bkMDMA, DOC, bongs/water pipes etc. I'm sure the legal vendors aren't checking up on the local laws before they send out their packages.
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'According to the Federal Drug Paraphernalia Statute, 21 USC 863, which is part of the Controlled Substances Act, in the USA it is illegal to sell, transport through the mail, transport across state lines, import, or export drug paraphernalia as defined. Possession is usually illegal under State law. The law gives specific guidance on determining what constitutes drug paraphernalia. Many states have also enacted their own laws prohibiting drug paraphernalia.'
"Drug paraphernalia is a term used, often with a slightly negative connotation due to its use in criminal law field e.g. "possession of drug paraphernalia", to denote any equipment, product, or material that is modified for making, using, or concealing drugs, typically for recreational purposes. Drugs such as cocaine, heroin, marijuana, and methamphetamine are related to a wide range of paraphernalia. Paraphernalia generally falls into two categories including user-specific products and dealer-specific products."
pulled from wiki.
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It does not become drug paraphernalia until a drug has been used in it. That is in the USA. The you have to leave the residue on the pipes or what not. Trust me, when I was a kid I got a glass pipe confiscated. Otherwise all the paraphernalia is considered to be used with a legal purpose. Tobacco, snuff, and incenses. They make snorter tubes for coke and what not and call it a snuff tube. And it is legal to sell all of those items in the USA.
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It does not become drug paraphernalia until a drug has been used in it. That is in the USA. The you have to leave the residue on the pipes or what not. Trust me, when I was a kid I got a glass pipe confiscated. Otherwise all the paraphernalia is considered to be used with a legal purpose. Tobacco, snuff, and incenses. They make snorter tubes for coke and what not and call it a snuff tube. And it is legal to sell all of those items in the USA.
Water pipes, wired rolling papers and pipes with a carb are all drug paraphernalia according to the federal law in the US.
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It does not become drug paraphernalia until a drug has been used in it. That is in the USA. The you have to leave the residue on the pipes or what not. Trust me, when I was a kid I got a glass pipe confiscated. Otherwise all the paraphernalia is considered to be used with a legal purpose. Tobacco, snuff, and incenses. They make snorter tubes for coke and what not and call it a snuff tube. And it is legal to sell all of those items in the USA.
Water pipes, wired rolling papers and pipes with a carb are all drug paraphernalia according to the federal law in the US.
as long as you dont call it a 'bong' in a bong shop you should be good.
nothing is illegal if you intend to use it for tobacco. As soon as you call a water pipe a bong it becomes illegal. It is just a loophole. The feds cant tell you what to smoke tobacco in.
Some states ban all waterpipes, however. In my experience the West Coast is much more lenient. You can walk into a headsop and buy a $10k "water pipe" to go home and smoke your tobacco
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It does not become drug paraphernalia until a drug has been used in it. That is in the USA. The you have to leave the residue on the pipes or what not. Trust me, when I was a kid I got a glass pipe confiscated. Otherwise all the paraphernalia is considered to be used with a legal purpose. Tobacco, snuff, and incenses. They make snorter tubes for coke and what not and call it a snuff tube. And it is legal to sell all of those items in the USA.
Water pipes, wired rolling papers and pipes with a carb are all drug paraphernalia according to the federal law in the US.
as long as you dont call it a 'bong' in a bong shop you should be good.
nothing is illegal if you intend to use it for tobacco. As soon as you call a water pipe a bong it becomes illegal. It is just a loophole. The feds cant tell you what to smoke tobacco in.
Some states ban all waterpipes, however. In my experience the West Coast is much more lenient. You can walk into a headsop and buy a $10k "water pipe" to go home and smoke your tobacco
Actually "water pipes" are illegal by federal law. Most head shops are breaking federal law. The feds just have more important things to deal with like busting medical marijuana dispensaries. :o
USC › Title 21 › Chapter 13 › Subchapter I › Part D › § 863
Drug paraphernalia
(a) In general
It is unlawful for any person—
(1) to sell or offer for sale drug paraphernalia;
(2) to use the mails or any other facility of interstate commerce to transport drug paraphernalia; or
(3) to import or export drug paraphernalia.
(b) Penalties
Anyone convicted of an offense under subsection (a) of this section shall be imprisoned for not more than three years and fined under title 18.
(c) Seizure and forfeiture
Any drug paraphernalia involved in any violation of subsection (a) of this section shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture upon the conviction of a person for such violation. Any such paraphernalia shall be delivered to the Administrator of General Services, General Services Administration, who may order such paraphernalia destroyed or may authorize its use for law enforcement or educational purposes by Federal, State, or local authorities.
(d) “Drug paraphernalia” defined
The term “drug paraphernalia” means any equipment, product, or material of any kind which is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, compounding, converting, concealing, producing, processing, preparing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance, possession of which is unlawful under this subchapter. It includes items primarily intended or designed for use in ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing marijuana, [1] cocaine, hashish, hashish oil, PCP, methamphetamine, or amphetamines into the human body, such as—
(1) metal, wooden, acrylic, glass, stone, plastic, or ceramic pipes with or without screens, permanent screens, hashish heads, or punctured metal bowls;
(2) water pipes;
(3) carburetion tubes and devices;
(4) smoking and carburetion masks;
(5) roach clips: meaning objects used to hold burning material, such as a marihuana cigarette, that has become too small or too short to be held in the hand;
(6) miniature spoons with level capacities of one-tenth cubic centimeter or less;
(7) chamber pipes;
(8 ) carburetor pipes;
(9) electric pipes;
(10) air-driven pipes;
(11) chillums;
(12) bongs;
(13) ice pipes or chillers;
(14) wired cigarette papers; or
(15) cocaine freebase kits.
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Actually "water pipes" are illegal by federal law. Most head shops are breaking federal law. The feds just have more important things to deal with like busting medical marijuana dispensaries. :o
USC › Title 21 › Chapter 13 › Subchapter I › Part D › § 863
Drug paraphernalia
(d) “Drug paraphernalia” defined
The term “drug paraphernalia” means any equipment, product, or material of any kind which is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, compounding, converting, concealing, producing, processing, preparing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance, possession of which is unlawful under this subchapter. It includes items primarily intended or designed for use in ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing marijuana, [1] cocaine, hashish, hashish oil, PCP, methamphetamine, or amphetamines into the human body, such as—
(1) metal, wooden, acrylic, glass, stone, plastic, or ceramic pipes with or without screens, permanent screens, hashish heads, or punctured metal bowls;
(2) water pipes;
How can they prove my water pipe is intended for illegal drugs and not tobacco if it hasnt been used yet?
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Actually "water pipes" are illegal by federal law. Most head shops are breaking federal law. The feds just have more important things to deal with like busting medical marijuana dispensaries. :o
USC › Title 21 › Chapter 13 › Subchapter I › Part D › § 863
Drug paraphernalia
(d) “Drug paraphernalia” defined
The term “drug paraphernalia” means any equipment, product, or material of any kind which is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, compounding, converting, concealing, producing, processing, preparing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance, possession of which is unlawful under this subchapter. It includes items primarily intended or designed for use in ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing marijuana, [1] cocaine, hashish, hashish oil, PCP, methamphetamine, or amphetamines into the human body, such as—
(1) metal, wooden, acrylic, glass, stone, plastic, or ceramic pipes with or without screens, permanent screens, hashish heads, or punctured metal bowls;
(2) water pipes;
How can they prove my water pipe is intended for illegal drugs and not tobacco if it hasnt been used yet?
It's a tough one man. As I said, they have more important things to do and generally don't bother head shops. They sent Tommy Chong to prison for shipping "water pipes" though. They can and do use expert testimony regarding the function of the paraphernalia. Federal law also references how much drug paraphernalia is used for legal purposes in a community as a deciding factor when determining its legality. Who uses a "water pipe" to smoke tobacco?
Definitions of drug paraphernalia encompass as many types of paraphernalia as possible. Construction materials include ceramic, plastic, stone, acrylic, glass, wood and metal. All smoking paraphernalia includes a bowl, which is the part filled with the combustible drug. Bowl types are categorized based on how they allow air but not combustible particulate matter to move through the apparatus. Bowls referenced in federal law include those with permanent screens or ones that may be removed, punctures and bowls intended for use with hashish. Other drug paraphernalia includes smoking masks, pipes with carburetors that allow for the building up of smoke in the chamber of the pipe, pipes with ice catches for cooling and items used for freebasing cocaine.
These raids were spurred by Ashcroft's Monday morning reinterpretation of federal law, wherein he determined that water pipes are "illegal drug paraphernalia." Water pipes can be used to smoke marijuana, so to Ashcroft, that's all they are used for.
http://cannabisnews.com/news/15/thread15572.shtml
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damn, Feds really dont want anyone to have fun
I learned something today. Thanks, Jack n Hoff
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It must suck living in the USA sometimes, it's not great here in the UK either.
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Its swings and roundabouts really. I get really jealous when I see those you tube videos of US drivers refusing to be stopped and searched "NO THANK YOU SIR I JUST WANT TO GO ABOUT MY LAWFUL BUSINESS AS IS MY RIGHT AS AN AMERICAN"
If you tried that in the UK you would get dragged from your car I think. I have just been reading about our rights as regards police stops in UK and it appears we have very few. They have to have a reason for stopping you but in my experience its always "we are looking for a burglar who fits your description" I guess I should stop wearing the stripy jumper.
On the other hand we can buy and sell bongs and large skins in relative freedom, also hydroponic gear and seeds (but NOT in the same shop for theselast two)
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I hope to move somewhere nicer soon. Out of all of the countries I've ever visited, England has in my experience the most knuckleheaded population. Just the fact that we still have a monarchy is hilarious. Europe is quite lame too. On the positive side, there aren't any things like natural disasters to worry about in the UK really.
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For UK vendors with headshops, such as PlutoPete, then yes it's illegal as they're selling both paraphernalia (ie grinders, pipes) along with other items such as seeds, grow guides etc which is seen in the eyes of the law and was set precedent by the Supreme Court as constituting a implication to consume/use/manufacture a controlled substance so unless Pete fancies taking the matter to the Supreme Court or Parliament, yes it's illegal in the UK at least, which is why a lot of places here a guy will own both the hydroponics and head shop and refer business to each store but they aren't officially the same place, so that's the loophole they work with.
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Obviously there is a major loophole. All the headshops near me do not sell any items that are not meant for tobacco. If you are in the headshop and say the word bong you get kicked out. Otherwise they will get closed down. It is completely legal to smoke a water pipe with tobacco. Water pipes would not be able to be sold unless for this one reason. And completely legal to smoke wired rolling papers. That law that a poster stated does not definitely distinguish that it must be bought in context of using illicit drugs with. Only when used in conjuction with illicit material does it make it illegal to buy or sell. Otherwise they can ship as many water pipes as you want. I used to manage a headshop.
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Its swings and roundabouts really. I get really jealous when I see those you tube videos of US drivers refusing to be stopped and searched "NO THANK YOU SIR I JUST WANT TO GO ABOUT MY LAWFUL BUSINESS AS IS MY RIGHT AS AN AMERICAN"
On the other hand we can buy and sell bongs and large skins in relative freedom, also hydroponic gear and seeds (but NOT in the same shop for theselast two)
lmao.. that shit won't work on majority of them local cops and sheriff's, in reality, they'll drag your ass out the car, "detain" you, and bring the dogs. you resist, you'll get your face pied against the hood of your car.
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Its swings and roundabouts really. I get really jealous when I see those you tube videos of US drivers refusing to be stopped and searched "NO THANK YOU SIR I JUST WANT TO GO ABOUT MY LAWFUL BUSINESS AS IS MY RIGHT AS AN AMERICAN"
On the other hand we can buy and sell bongs and large skins in relative freedom, also hydroponic gear and seeds (but NOT in the same shop for theselast two)
lmao.. that shit won't work on majority of them local cops and sheriff's, in reality, they'll drag your ass out the car, "detain" you, and bring the dogs. you resist, you'll get your face pied against the hood of your car.
Yeah, that shit is like unheard of. Police love to violate your rights...
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Obviously there is a major loophole. All the headshops near me do not sell any items that are not meant for tobacco. If you are in the headshop and say the word bong you get kicked out. Otherwise they will get closed down. It is completely legal to smoke a water pipe with tobacco. Water pipes would not be able to be sold unless for this one reason. And completely legal to smoke wired rolling papers. That law that a poster stated does not definitely distinguish that it must be bought in context of using illicit drugs with. Only when used in conjuction with illicit material does it make it illegal to buy or sell. Otherwise they can ship as many water pipes as you want. I used to manage a headshop.
Your boss lied to you. Kind of like how the head shops sell spice and bath salts... Tell that to Tommy Chong!
65-year-old actor Tommy Chong told a federal judge yesterday that he's now a role model for young people in Los Angeles and wants to help them stay off drugs.
He and his lawyers were hoping for a community service sentence as punishment for distributing thousands of bongs and marijuana pipes online through his California company, Nice Dreams Enterprises.
But Chong, famous for such movies as "Up in Smoke" with longtime partner Cheech Marin, is going to prison instead.
U.S. District Judge Arthur J. Schwab yesterday gave him nine months in a federal lockup and fined him $20,000.
As part of the sentence, Chong forfeited his Internet domain name, Chongglass.com, along with $103,514 in cash and all of the drug paraphernalia seized by federal agents during a raid Feb. 24.
He'll be allowed to self-report to prison, probably to a facility nearest his Pacific Palisades, Calif., home.
The case against him was part of "Operation Pipe Dreams," a national investigation of drug paraphernalia distributors that began in Pittsburgh during the prosecution of Akhil Kumar Mishra and his wife, Rajeshwari, who ran two head shops Downtown in the 1990s.
In February some 55 people were arrested and head shops and distributors across the country were shut down. Chong wasn't arrested at the time, but his business, which employed several glass blowers, was among those raided.
Chong, whose full name is Thomas B. Kin Chong, apologized for his conduct and said he had tried to make amends by instructing young people in inner-city L.A. to dance and learn about the movie industry, saying he has a "natural ability to teach."
He also said anti-drug commercials don't work on young people and he asked for the chance to "make a difference" by using his celebrity to help them stay sober.
Chong and his lawyers had previously asked Schwab to postpone sentencing so they could explore alternatives like community service, but the judge said "no." They asked again yesterday and again the judge said "no."
Schwab actually gave Chong a bit of a break. Under sentencing guidelines, he could have sentenced him to a year in prison and a $250,000 fine.
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Actually if you sold spice at any of the head shops around me you would get shut down. Head shops where I am are strictly for tobacco purposes. And like I said, as long as you never refer to it as a bong, it is not considered illegal. They even sell tobacco in these places. You are also allowed to smoke cigarettes or any type of tobacco in the stores as well :)
Or can you explain why a clean 4 foot water bong was allowed to stay in my possession when I got pulled over last year. There was even a clean grinder in the bag with it. They asked me what it was for, I said tobacco, they said ok you are good to go.
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I am also sure that it would make it very illegal to sell paraphernalia on this website because it would be definitely considered drug paraphernalia at this point since there are drugs being sold on SR.
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Actually if you sold spice at any of the head shops around me you would get shut down. Head shops where I am are strictly for tobacco purposes. And like I said, as long as you never refer to it as a bong, it is not considered illegal. They even sell tobacco in these places. You are also allowed to smoke cigarettes or any type of tobacco in the stores as well :)
Or can you explain why a clean 4 foot water bong was allowed to stay in my possession when I got pulled over last year. There was even a clean grinder in the bag with it. They asked me what it was for, I said tobacco, they said ok you are good to go.
I said federal law, herp derp. State and city cops don't enforce that, derp. That is why you can have water pipes and such, derp. Like I said earlier, even the feds don't enforce these laws much. Tommy Chong was selling them as water pipes not bongs. So were the other 55 people arrested by the feds. There is states that you are just clearly not allowed to ship water pipes and glass pipes with carbs to. You sound just like a medical marijana grower saying "what I'm doping is 100% legal, herp derp." Cannabis is illegal under federal law so growing medical marijuana is not 100% legal. Just face it, we have laws. Some of our laws are not strictly enforced. Over half of the states in the US have laws against having sex in certain positions or with the lights on or off or against oral sex and anal sex. Are they enforced? No. It is illegal to talk while riding an elevator in New York. It is illegal for a driver to pump their own gas and for a car door to be left open longer than necessary in Oregon. In Georgia it is illegal to carry an ice cream cone in your back pocket. I will say that the paraphernalia laws are enforced A LOT more than all of the laws I just stated, but I'm sure you know that. Ignorance is no excuse of the law in the US. ;)
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I see what you are saying. I wonder how internet companies that sell a lot of pieces stay alive. It seems to me like tommy was selling pieces on a small scale compared to much larger online companies. Maybe the feds are just selective pricks.
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I see what you are saying. I wonder how internet companies that sell a lot of pieces stay alive. It seems to me like tommy was selling pieces on a small scale compared to much larger online companies. Maybe the feds are just selective pricks.
Exactly. They tried to make an example out of him because he is famous. They rarely enforce those laws but it happens from time to time. Just like they rarely bust medical marijuana patients.
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2-3 years ago there were several Headshops in the Republic of Ireland, all closed down owners arrested, every thing seized and destroyed.
what happened to the owners i dont know.
But i hope none of them ended up in Mountjoy Prison......
Seems to me what ever any government cant control they smash to little bits......
and make a big splash and dance about it. but only till they have smashed broken something will they do the Victory dance.
There main problem is us lot on tor..... wonder how the fuck they gonna fix that plug hole..
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But i hope none of them ended up in Mountjoy Prison......
What a nice name for a prison. Sounds like a place I'd like to go.
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oh no you dont..... trust me there.
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It is not legal to sell drug-related or drug-enterprise-related items to drug users/dealers. Aiding in on ongoing criminal enterprise can hold very serious consequences; even just participating (i.e. being the close friend/girlfriend/family member of a dealer whom you know to be actively operating) can have you end up in a state penitentiary. Any way you slice it this place is not legal. Now, does the USPS get prosecuted because they sold stamps used to transport (and actually, themselves, unknowingly transported!) narcotics? No! Why? Because the gov doesn't want to hurt itself. If you were, however, a private citizen transporter (i.e. your friend said "here's a box of flowers take it to my mom's house") of narcotics you could be looking at several years! Such is the game the LE plays. They could prosecute all the stores you spent your "dirty" money at too, technically, but they'd rather just fuck up the lives of private citizens. It's less messy that way, and the average private citizen can't do anything about it, which is even better.
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I think its primarily a tax/customs thing. I recall reading a bit about cigarette/tobacco vendors on here having issues getting stuff to certain countries based on tax-related criteria.
Personally I think its all bullshit, the concept of a sales tax to me is a serious infringement many people overlook honestly just sends more money to "the man."
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I am also sure that it would make it very illegal to sell paraphernalia on this website because it would be definitely considered drug paraphernalia at this point since there are drugs being sold on SR.
I'm sure LE would argue anything sold on SR is illegal for reasons similar to the above reasoning. I don't think it is actually logically correct, though. If that logic held, any brick-n-mortar business on the same street as an illegal headshop business would be found to be illegal. After all, that furniture store sells short tables perfect for placing in front of a couch for bongs to sit on... And they set up that furniture store here because they knew drug users would buy short tables and couches for their illegal drug use.
I know I'm going overboard a bit in my interpretation, just like LE would. And, yes, most american judges would take the side of LE. That does not make their interpretation correct.
I do think it is possible to have a legal business here. I agree LE will argue otherwise if it fits their desires. What you say and how you sell your products, that is where the legal vs illegal intent is likely to be found. A lot of glass blowers around here got busted for selling accross state lines a few years ago. Before that a bunch of Indoor-grow-equipment stores got shut down as well.
I believe they all got busted for how they sold products and educated customers. Undercovers came in and asked store employees how to use their products for something illegal: If they answered, they got busted and shut down and...
Now indoor-grow stores flourish and I bet the laws are the same now as then. To stay legal, you have to be legal and not intentionally help anyone break the law. I think that can be done here on SR. Depending on the product, though, it may not be easy or for the relaxed and helpful sort of person. Eternal vigilence against scamming undercover LE claiming they need advice could be a difficult challenge.
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Not sure - don't forget that you're financially supporting (and profiting from) a criminal enterprise by selling here ... so, there's that. Then again, others know better than I do about this issue.
Scout---Are you saying that if you set up a vendor account and you sold...lets say...model cars....that you would be breaking the law? That selling model cars is against the law because other vendors sell illegal items? Meaning that because SR is a criminal enterprise (your words) that you would be contributing to that..hence breaking the law....is this what your saying?
(FYI--I am just asking you if this is your opinion or if I am reading it wrong...I am not insinuating you are wrong in your belief)
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Not sure - don't forget that you're financially supporting (and profiting from) a criminal enterprise by selling here ... so, there's that. Then again, others know better than I do about this issue.
Scout---Are you saying that if you set up a vendor account and you sold...lets say...model cars....that you would be breaking the law? That selling model cars is against the law because other vendors sell illegal items? Meaning that because SR is a criminal enterprise (your words) that you would be contributing to that..hence breaking the law....is this what your saying?
(FYI--I am just asking you if this is your opinion or if I am reading it wrong...I am not insinuating you are wrong in your belief)
I know no one asked me, but, LE could try to argue that any vendor here who pays fees to SR is supporting a criminal enterprise. SR staff might try to argue they offer a service that criminals use (just like banks do, for example). But, that that does not make SR a criminal enterprise (like banks usually are not). If the people who run SR have been careful not to knowingly break the law or give specific advise to help others break the law, they might be able to claim to be as lawful as a bank. If they have messed that part up, I think they might want to consider closing up this biz [or selling it to a new owner ;-)] so a new crime-free version of SR could begin.
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I know no one asked me, but, LE could try to argue that any vendor here who pays fees to SR is supporting a criminal enterprise. SR staff might try to argue they offer a service that criminals use (just like banks do, for example). But, that that does not make SR a criminal enterprise (like banks usually are not). If the people who run SR have been careful not to knowingly break the law or give specific advise to help others break the law, they might be able to claim to be as lawful as a bank. If they have messed that part up, I think they might want to consider closing up this biz [or selling it to a new owner ;-)] so a new crime-free version of SR could begin.
Please tell me/us you just got done smoking a fat one....a really fat one.....before you wrote this :)
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I know no one asked me, but, LE could try to argue that any vendor here who pays fees to SR is supporting a criminal enterprise. SR staff might try to argue they offer a service that criminals use (just like banks do, for example). But, that that does not make SR a criminal enterprise (like banks usually are not). If the people who run SR have been careful not to knowingly break the law or give specific advise to help others break the law, they might be able to claim to be as lawful as a bank. If they have messed that part up, I think they might want to consider closing up this biz [or selling it to a new owner ;-)] so a new crime-free version of SR could begin.
Please tell me/us you just got done smoking a fat one....a really fat one.....before you wrote this :)
A few deep hits later and Just to dig myself in a bit deeper, I'll suggest DPR and any other staff also sell their account names at the same time to the "new" owner(s) so we users of SR need never know the change in management ever happened. I am assuming the sale would be to new anonymous people who share the exact same beliefs as the original crew. I know this sounds crazy and maybe it is :-)
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Not sure - don't forget that you're financially supporting (and profiting from) a criminal enterprise by selling here ... so, there's that. Then again, others know better than I do about this issue.
Scout---Are you saying that if you set up a vendor account and you sold...lets say...model cars....that you would be breaking the law? That selling model cars is against the law because other vendors sell illegal items? Meaning that because SR is a criminal enterprise (your words) that you would be contributing to that..hence breaking the law....is this what your saying?
(FYI--I am just asking you if this is your opinion or if I am reading it wrong...I am not insinuating you are wrong in your belief)
I'm saying that is what I've read here in many threads similar to this one. I'm not sure if it's accurate or true, but I would think that to be safe, if someone is selling something legal, they might want to sell it elsewhere to avoid any possible issues if LE were to want to fuck with them.
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If LE could prove that you knew your products (toy cars, what have you) were bought with criminal proceeds and that you neglected to report it, yes that would be bad. It doesn't seem like something a federal agency would go after, but local PD? They will take all they can get.
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It would be very hard to argue that the paraphernalia isn't for drugs. It is illegal to sell drug paraphernalia in the US. Water pipes, wired rolling papers and pipes with a carb are all illegal to sell under federal law in the US.
uh Wrong, wrong, and wrong. All of those things are perfectly legal to possess/sell in all except for like 3 states. You just need to say that they are for tobacco use only.
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It would be very hard to argue that the paraphernalia isn't for drugs. It is illegal to sell drug paraphernalia in the US. Water pipes, wired rolling papers and pipes with a carb are all illegal to sell under federal law in the US.
uh Wrong, wrong, and wrong. All of those things are perfectly legal to possess/sell in all except for like 3 states. You just need to say that they are for tobacco use only.
You're talking about state law and I am talking about federal law.
It does not become drug paraphernalia until a drug has been used in it. That is in the USA. The you have to leave the residue on the pipes or what not. Trust me, when I was a kid I got a glass pipe confiscated. Otherwise all the paraphernalia is considered to be used with a legal purpose. Tobacco, snuff, and incenses. They make snorter tubes for coke and what not and call it a snuff tube. And it is legal to sell all of those items in the USA.
Water pipes, wired rolling papers and pipes with a carb are all drug paraphernalia according to the federal law in the US.
as long as you dont call it a 'bong' in a bong shop you should be good.
nothing is illegal if you intend to use it for tobacco. As soon as you call a water pipe a bong it becomes illegal. It is just a loophole. The feds cant tell you what to smoke tobacco in.
Some states ban all waterpipes, however. In my experience the West Coast is much more lenient. You can walk into a headsop and buy a $10k "water pipe" to go home and smoke your tobacco
Actually "water pipes" are illegal by federal law. Most head shops are breaking federal law. The feds just have more important things to deal with like busting medical marijuana dispensaries. :o
USC › Title 21 › Chapter 13 › Subchapter I › Part D › § 863
Drug paraphernalia
(a) In general
It is unlawful for any person—
(1) to sell or offer for sale drug paraphernalia;
(2) to use the mails or any other facility of interstate commerce to transport drug paraphernalia; or
(3) to import or export drug paraphernalia.
(b) Penalties
Anyone convicted of an offense under subsection (a) of this section shall be imprisoned for not more than three years and fined under title 18.
(c) Seizure and forfeiture
Any drug paraphernalia involved in any violation of subsection (a) of this section shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture upon the conviction of a person for such violation. Any such paraphernalia shall be delivered to the Administrator of General Services, General Services Administration, who may order such paraphernalia destroyed or may authorize its use for law enforcement or educational purposes by Federal, State, or local authorities.
(d) “Drug paraphernalia” defined
The term “drug paraphernalia” means any equipment, product, or material of any kind which is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, compounding, converting, concealing, producing, processing, preparing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance, possession of which is unlawful under this subchapter. It includes items primarily intended or designed for use in ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing marijuana, [1] cocaine, hashish, hashish oil, PCP, methamphetamine, or amphetamines into the human body, such as—
(1) metal, wooden, acrylic, glass, stone, plastic, or ceramic pipes with or without screens, permanent screens, hashish heads, or punctured metal bowls;
(2) water pipes;
(3) carburetion tubes and devices;
(4) smoking and carburetion masks;
(5) roach clips: meaning objects used to hold burning material, such as a marihuana cigarette, that has become too small or too short to be held in the hand;
(6) miniature spoons with level capacities of one-tenth cubic centimeter or less;
(7) chamber pipes;
(8 ) carburetor pipes;
(9) electric pipes;
(10) air-driven pipes;
(11) chillums;
(12) bongs;
(13) ice pipes or chillers;
(14) wired cigarette papers; or
(15) cocaine freebase kits.
Actually "water pipes" are illegal by federal law. Most head shops are breaking federal law. The feds just have more important things to deal with like busting medical marijuana dispensaries. :o
USC › Title 21 › Chapter 13 › Subchapter I › Part D › § 863
Drug paraphernalia
(d) “Drug paraphernalia” defined
The term “drug paraphernalia” means any equipment, product, or material of any kind which is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, compounding, converting, concealing, producing, processing, preparing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance, possession of which is unlawful under this subchapter. It includes items primarily intended or designed for use in ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing marijuana, [1] cocaine, hashish, hashish oil, PCP, methamphetamine, or amphetamines into the human body, such as—
(1) metal, wooden, acrylic, glass, stone, plastic, or ceramic pipes with or without screens, permanent screens, hashish heads, or punctured metal bowls;
(2) water pipes;
How can they prove my water pipe is intended for illegal drugs and not tobacco if it hasnt been used yet?
It's a tough one man. As I said, they have more important things to do and generally don't bother head shops. They sent Tommy Chong to prison for shipping "water pipes" though. They can and do use expert testimony regarding the function of the paraphernalia. Federal law also references how much drug paraphernalia is used for legal purposes in a community as a deciding factor when determining its legality. Who uses a "water pipe" to smoke tobacco?
Definitions of drug paraphernalia encompass as many types of paraphernalia as possible. Construction materials include ceramic, plastic, stone, acrylic, glass, wood and metal. All smoking paraphernalia includes a bowl, which is the part filled with the combustible drug. Bowl types are categorized based on how they allow air but not combustible particulate matter to move through the apparatus. Bowls referenced in federal law include those with permanent screens or ones that may be removed, punctures and bowls intended for use with hashish. Other drug paraphernalia includes smoking masks, pipes with carburetors that allow for the building up of smoke in the chamber of the pipe, pipes with ice catches for cooling and items used for freebasing cocaine.
These raids were spurred by Ashcroft's Monday morning reinterpretation of federal law, wherein he determined that water pipes are "illegal drug paraphernalia." Water pipes can be used to smoke marijuana, so to Ashcroft, that's all they are used for.
http://cannabisnews.com/news/15/thread15572.shtml
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Tommy Chong got sent to prison because he shipped one to PA. A state where "water pipes" are specifically illegal.
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Tommy Chong got sent to prison because he shipped one to PA. A state where "water pipes" are specifically illegal.
Indeed. What about the other 54 people arrested in operation pipedreams? ::)
Or the arrests across the country http://cannabisnews.com/news/15/thread15572.shtml ::)
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Tommy Chong got sent to prison because he shipped one to PA. A state where "water pipes" are specifically illegal.
Indeed. What about the other 54 people arrested in operation pipedreams? ::)
Or the arrests across the country http://cannabisnews.com/news/15/thread15572.shtml ::)
Well my point was only that he wasn't arrested because he broke federal law. He broke a law of the state of PA. This is of course if I remember correctly.
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Thanks for the thoughtful responses. There are many replies about it being illegal relative to the country (i.e. the US) but this could be tweeded out by selecting to do business with countries where these issues do not arise (whether you advertise it for tobacco or whatever).
So it seems to me that the tax evasion is the only issue. I think it would be funny, and would be a media headline, for a headshop/ entrepreneur to apply for a business license in their country to sell legal items on SR. My guess is this would only work in Spain or Czech Republic or something. Still, very interesting if someone did this for the larf.