Silk Road forums
Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: titsmcgee123 on May 08, 2013, 03:13 am
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I was just curious as to your guys' views of a creator/higher power.
As for me, I'd say I'm agnostic, i believe its just impossible to know, religion is purely a man made concept that has caused more deaths than any disease, famine or anything else. IMO there could be a god but there is no way of human beings to know, it is just out of our realm of consciousness to comprehend. then again, i see it much more likely that there is no god, the universe is infinite and we, as humans, are nothing more than the size of an atom in the eye of the universe
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Agnostic also, more atheist than agnostic. I have christian friends and when I'm over there house they gang up on you trying to recruit you into their twisted cult, hate that shit.
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I don't believe in god, and usually I'd say I don't believe in anything - because I certainly feel like science has advanced far enough to put a lot of religious theories to rest.
But... (and bare with me - im not high.. seriously!) you know when you think about space - the universe etc, and your brain does that weird thing where you suddenly fail to comprehend what it is you're even thinking about. Well to me that raises questions about just how much we actually don't know - and what crazy shit could really be out there.
So - in summary. No, I dont subscribe to any religion that I know of. And I don't think we get beamed up through a magical white light when we die to meet a man with a massive beard who decided whether we're shit or not. But... I do wonder what the point of this whole shebang is. 8)
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I consider myself a deist.
For the more pedantic, that would be close to an "agnostic theist".
As for the three main mono-religions; Islam, Christianity and Judaism, I'm totally atheistic with respect to them, agnosticism doesn't even come into play.
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Agnostic also, more atheist than agnostic. I have christian friends and when I'm over there house they gang up on you trying to recruit you into their twisted cult, hate that shit.
My atheist friends always did that with me haha. I also hate that shit.
I reckon there's something to all world religions. They all point towards a higher light, god if you will, and generally teach you to treat others as yourself, and have enriched art, music, culture in general. Of course the tribalism associated with them has caused problems. I can't stand people that get all militant and up tight on any side.
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I used to say I believe as the ancient Egyptians believed, but it confused people.
So, I believe that god is as far beyond man as man is from bacteria. Because of this man must break god up into smaller parts so that s/he can understand god on some level. Thus where one man believes in one god and another believes in the power of the universe or in the natural order of things, they are all one in the same but just broken up so each can understand it.
This leads to the realization that god and the devil are one in the same, just different aspects of the same entity. Before some christian screams, think of it from the ant's point of view. God drops food from the sky while the evil devil causes a black object to fall and kill the ant's. Never realizing that they are one in the same person.
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I'm definitely against all organized religion. Organized religions are creations of man, and they are riddled with corruption. Organized religion is a used as a tool to control the uneducated.
Religions are set in their ways and do not change at all even when presented with new facts. The vast majority of high ranking scientist are non religious. Studies have been done that show critical thinking makes people less religious.
Religions claim to be for the good of man, but i honestly can not think of any institution that has caused more "sin" through the course of history.
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. " - Steven Weinberg
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Looks like stoners think alike
I hate organized religions, they serve to break up humanity. I believe all faiths are different ways to find or learn about/from the creator. I think the creator is too large and complex for man to understand.
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I mean religion is just the most hypocritical piece of shit ever created, it makes me laugh so hard sometimes. you have all the major religions teach that, above all else, killing is bad, but there has just been countless deaths due to the bullshit that idiots believe because some guy claimed he talked to god. it's just appalling.
Which religion would you guys say you hate the most, if there is one that sticks out. I'd say muslims just because they are so arrogant and have their heads so far up their ass, its as if they(now im saying in the middle east) are still in the 1500s. I mean jews are bad too because of their beloved israel, among many other things and christians are pretty fucking bad too but at least they treat all the people the same and have gotten on with the times and aren't waging wars in the name of their god
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I mean religion is just the most hypocritical piece of shit ever created, it makes me laugh so hard sometimes. you have all the major religions teach that, above all else, killing is bad, but there has just been countless deaths due to the bullshit that idiots believe because some guy claimed he talked to god. it's just appalling.
Which religion would you guys say you hate the most, if there is one that sticks out. I'd say muslims just because they are so arrogant and have their heads so far up their ass, its as if they(now im saying in the middle east) are still in the 1500s. I mean jews are bad too because of their beloved israel, among many other things and christians are pretty fucking bad too but at least they treat all the people the same and have gotten on with the times and aren't waging wars in the name of their god
Oh they are, they just are not publicized like muslim related events are. Actually, most muslims are just as tolerant if not more tolerant than their non uber conservative counterparts in the other religions. Even some the conservatives are pretty damn tolerant. It's the fanatics, just like in all the other religions, that cause issues. I have actually been treated badly by more christians than any other religion.
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god is cosmic consciousness... the idea that the universe exists as an interconnected network of consciousness, with each conscious being linked to every other.
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As someone who was raised in the soviet union I'm an atheist. Yet it never stops to amaze me how many people suddenly became religious after the fall of USSR... According to wikipedia 99% of my country are ortodox christians.
99%.... that's even worse than in the US :)
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i'm an atheist. anyone who blames their misfortune on 'god not liking me' just can't admit they are a failure or own up to their responsibilities
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i'm a strong proponent of creating your own religion, and leaving your ideas malleable like soft clay, rather than hardening it into absolute form like ceramics.
atheism, monotheism, and polytheism are all correct, IMO, and i think its just a matter as to how you choose to live your life.
full disclosure, i've done a LOT of psychedelics over the years and come to the conclusion that the only thing you can count on as "real" is your own mind. so there is no god which means atheism is correct. or there is one god (you) so monotheism is correct. or through the power of thought, you help create multiple gods so polytheism is the way.
the latter is the most intriguing to me. gods do not create people, people create gods. this is evident throughout all times and cultures. I am most interested in comic book heroes being an american/western version of polytheism. we know these characters, their history, their adventures, their characteristics, their relationships, etc, but they do not exist anywhere but our minds and in books. yet they inspire us, entertain us, and take our money. what else are gods for?
hard to explain in such a short paragraph. it has taken years of contemplation and reading for me to get where i am now in my understanding of comic heroes as gods. the old polytheistic religions are interesting, but they are as I said...old. they are so old that they come with a shit ton of dogma, which i feel is a true enemy to any seeker.
recommended reading for this subject: "Supergods" by Grant Morrison, "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman, "An Unlikely Prophet" by Alvin Schwartz.
I also recommend the documentary "The Mindscape of Alan Moore." author of groundbreaking comics such as "Watchmen" and "V for Vendetta" he is a self proclaimed magician and one of the greatest occultists I have ever heard speak.
so yeah, its all about choice. atheism, I feel, is a cheap cop-out from any spiritual journey, self-discovery, or serious philosophical contemplation. monotheism is very boring, like a life lived in grey scale. polytheism is like living life in 16million colors. and i love color :)
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I am Ignostic.
The view that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of God can be meaningfully discussed.
Simply asking, "Does God exist" is nonsensical.
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I mean religion is just the most hypocritical piece of shit ever created, it makes me laugh so hard sometimes. you have all the major religions teach that, above all else, killing is bad, but there has just been countless deaths due to the bullshit that idiots believe because some guy claimed he talked to god. it's just appalling.
Which religion would you guys say you hate the most, if there is one that sticks out. I'd say muslims just because they are so arrogant and have their heads so far up their ass, its as if they(now im saying in the middle east) are still in the 1500s. I mean jews are bad too because of their beloved israel, among many other things and christians are pretty fucking bad too but at least they treat all the people the same and have gotten on with the times and aren't waging wars in the name of their god
Oh they are, they just are not publicized like muslim related events are. Actually, most muslims are just as tolerant if not more tolerant than their non uber conservative counterparts in the other religions. Even some the conservatives are pretty damn tolerant. It's the fanatics, just like in all the other religions, that cause issues. I have actually been treated badly by more christians than any other religion.
Im pretty sure women are treated like dogs in the middle east.. I mean of course every religion has their extremest retard douchebags, i just happen to believe muslims are the worst, and i say that not even taking into account 9-11 aka with the average american conditioned mindset
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I mean religion is just the most hypocritical piece of shit ever created, it makes me laugh so hard sometimes. you have all the major religions teach that, above all else, killing is bad, but there has just been countless deaths due to the bullshit that idiots believe because some guy claimed he talked to god. it's just appalling.
Which religion would you guys say you hate the most, if there is one that sticks out. I'd say muslims just because they are so arrogant and have their heads so far up their ass, its as if they(now im saying in the middle east) are still in the 1500s. I mean jews are bad too because of their beloved israel, among many other things and christians are pretty fucking bad too but at least they treat all the people the same and have gotten on with the times and aren't waging wars in the name of their god
Oh they are, they just are not publicized like muslim related events are. Actually, most muslims are just as tolerant if not more tolerant than their non uber conservative counterparts in the other religions. Even some the conservatives are pretty damn tolerant. It's the fanatics, just like in all the other religions, that cause issues. I have actually been treated badly by more christians than any other religion.
Im pretty sure women are treated like dogs in the middle east.. I mean of course every religion has their extremest retard douchebags, i just happen to believe muslims are the worst, and i say that not even taking into account 9-11 aka with the average american conditioned mindset
They aren't treated like dogs. Some of it could actually be for their protection, if you've always got a big man escorting you everywhere, you aren't going to get raped or mugged now are you? As for some of the other more draconian laws like no women driving, I don't think cars existed back when the Q'uran was written, pretty sure that is just a development of the way the people in power have interpreted the book.
Remember, everything in these religious books was written for completely different times. All the religions I think need to update their stuff, but back then quite a few things were put in for reasons that were valid at the time, such as no eating of pig meat due to the parasites in it, no longer a problem now with technology but a very real and dangerous threat back then. Another big issue is interpretation and extrapolation, which can twist or completely fabricate laws out of the book. Which happens with any religion.
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The closest belief system - if you can call it that - that I would subscribe to is pandeism.
I have both written and read many papers that run along the very edge of science and spiritualism. It all boils down to the nature of reality. We create the world we see and experience and interact with using our 5 senses. These senses are merely electrical pulses that are decoded in our brains. Two people can have the exact same experience but have very different views on it. The world and indeed Universe that we create subjectively is a mirage.
For example, we all know the sky is blue. That's what we see and and therefore it must be. Yet the sky isn't any colour. As visible light enters the atmosphere the blue light part of the spectrum is scattered while the rest of the spectrum passes straight through. Thus, the sky appears blue.
God for me is really more like a kind of Santa Claus for the masses. Made up to make explaining nature easier and to make people live good lives with the promise of a reward for doing so, or to Hell with evil sinners etc. But does that mean there is no "creator"? Did the Universe really just pop into existence just like that?
The answer lies in consciousness. If you know about the double slit experiment, you will know what I mean. If not, there are plenty of YouTube videos that explain it very well. Basically the experiment tells us that matter, the stuff of everything, exists as particles and as waves. When matter is consciously observed, it becomes fixed in spacetime. When it is not observed, it is spread out everywhere. We know that some things definitely occurred at the dawn of time and the big bang. Therefore, consciousness must have also existed. The trouble for us as people is this is a level of consciousness that exists and is very real - but beyond our current levels of understanding.
Through Transcendental Meditation it is possible to connect with this pure vibrant consciousness. It exists in each and every one of us. Our own conscious is borne from the Universal consciousness. You, yes YOU, have the ability to experience this for yourself. Personally, there is nothing I like nothing better than sucking on a bong loaded with some sativa strains and meditate. Love is a very high pitched frequency and over time you can raise your own vibration level to this high frequency. In short, this is the gateway to contentment and happiness. Fear is a low, dense frequency. Unfortunately the world we live in is dominated by fear. Don't let fear dominate your life, you only get one go at it.
As for religion, well, what has done for us? It makes us want to kill each other. Jihadists waging war on the west, Christians fighting amongst themselves, Protestants against Catholics etc. Have any of you ever read any history of the Catholic church? I have a little, and throughout history it has proved itself to be one of the most evil and criminal organisations ever! If the Catholic church was a country, it would be the fourth largest economy in the world. How have they accumulated this vast wealth? And why are there Catholics in the Philippines, Central and South America that have fuck all? Sorry, little rant there.
There is something out there, greater than all of us. Its consciousness. What exactly is consciousness? Aaaaaaaah......ummmm...get back to me on that.
EDIT* Having read over this it isn't as joined up as I would have liked but then again this is a deep subject with much to discuss. Also, I should point out this is a personal view, not all physicists agree! Some really do have this very clinical and barren overview that "shit just happens".
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i'm a strong proponent of creating your own religion, and leaving your ideas malleable like soft clay, rather than hardening it into absolute form like ceramics.
atheism, monotheism, and polytheism are all correct, IMO, and i think its just a matter as to how you choose to live your life.
full disclosure, i've done a LOT of psychedelics over the years and come to the conclusion that the only thing you can count on as "real" is your own mind. so there is no god which means atheism is correct. or there is one god (you) so monotheism is correct. or through the power of thought, you help create multiple gods so polytheism is the way.
the latter is the most intriguing to me. gods do not create people, people create gods. this is evident throughout all times and cultures. I am most interested in comic book heroes being an american/western version of polytheism. we know these characters, their history, their adventures, their characteristics, their relationships, etc, but they do not exist anywhere but our minds and in books. yet they inspire us, entertain us, and take our money. what else are gods for?
hard to explain in such a short paragraph. it has taken years of contemplation and reading for me to get where i am now in my understanding of comic heroes as gods. the old polytheistic religions are interesting, but they are as I said...old. they are so old that they come with a shit ton of dogma, which i feel is a true enemy to any seeker.
recommended reading for this subject: "Supergods" by Grant Morrison, "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman, "An Unlikely Prophet" by Alvin Schwartz.
I also recommend the documentary "The Mindscape of Alan Moore." author of groundbreaking comics such as "Watchmen" and "V for Vendetta" he is a self proclaimed magician and one of the greatest occultists I have ever heard speak.
so yeah, its all about choice. atheism, I feel, is a cheap cop-out from any spiritual journey, self-discovery, or serious philosophical contemplation. monotheism is very boring, like a life lived in grey scale. polytheism is like living life in 16million colors. and i love color :)
Wow, I see a lot of myself in this post. I even started my own religion in high school just for kicks and to see where it could take me. It was not so much a religion because there was no mythology as much as it was a group of philosophies to live by. I don't like to label my beliefs because I am so specific that I don't subscribe too all of any denominations beliefs, but if I had to label myself I would call myself an agnostic that practices humanitarianism as well as aspects of buddhism and unitarian universalism. But I always like the notion of a higher consciousness, but definitely not a higher "power." If that makes sense.
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What and interesting tread I found here. I am Muslim and I challenge every atheist to prove that God does not exists.
After that I will come with rational evidence that He does.
So who´s up for the challenge
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What and interesting tread I found here. I am Muslim and I challenge every atheist to prove that God does not exists.
After that I will come with rational evidence that He does.
So who´s up for the challenge
Your belief is up to you entirely, but logically since you are the one initially perpetuating the idea that something DOES exist, naturally you would need to prove it's existence before any theoretical atheist could disprove you. Essentially, it's impossible to disqualify any of your evidence because... you don't have any. This is precisely why I see it as entirely futile to believe/argue one way or the other. I am spiritually hopeful, but always realistic.
I suggest you read this section here, there are many arguments against outlined:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God#Arguments_against_the_existence_of_God
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On the contrary there is enough evidence.
We are not like Christians that base there whole religion on blind faith.
Islam is a religion of reason.
So what is stronger blind faith or reason. I say reason has the upper hand and I know that you are with me
on this one. True or not
Before I get to that please refrain from giving me links. If you want explain in your own word form you own understand what that evidence is.
In Islam we have to two types of evidence.
The first rational evidence.
Explained by this short Arabic proverb.
A camel dropping in the desert points the world the passing of a camel.
The second is the revelation.
That is the Noble Quran a one of a kind book.
Do you want to know more.
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On the contrary there is enough evidence.
We are not like Christians that base there whole religion on blind faith.
Islam is a religion of reason.
So what is stronger blind faith or reason. I say reason has the upper hand and I know that you are with me
on this one. True or not
Before I get to that please refrain from giving me links. If you want explain in your own word form you own understand what that evidence is.
In Islam we have to two types of evidence.
The first rational evidence.
Explained by this short Arabic proverb.
A camel dropping in the desert points the world the passing of a camel.
The second is the revelation.
That is the Noble Quran a one of a kind book.
Do you want to know more.
Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claims that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, it is nonsensical for him to expect others to believe him on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong. Russell's teapot is still referred to in discussions concerning the existence of God.
Yes, bring on your "facts" lol
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What and interesting tread I found here. I am Muslim and I challenge every atheist to prove that God does not exists.
After that I will come with rational evidence that He does.
So who´s up for the challenge
I don't know and neither do you. You have faith and that is all you can claim.
XXX God/s - Personally I don't wish it to be true and shutter at the thought of it being so.
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What and interesting tread I found here. I am Muslim and I challenge every atheist to prove that God does not exists.
After that I will come with rational evidence that He does.
So who´s up for the challenge
this is illogical. the burden of proof lies on you, the proponent of this hypothesis.
should i claim unicorns and dragons exist and then simply call upon you to prove that they don't?
furthermore, nothing can be proven to be "real" other than your own mind. how can you prove that the entire world isn't actually some grand computer simulation that we forgot we are taking part in, and thus have assumed it is the whole of reality? good luck proving anything at all to the people who hang around this forum, lol.
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On the contrary there is enough evidence.
We are not like Christians that base there whole religion on blind faith.
Islam is a religion of reason.
So what is stronger blind faith or reason. I say reason has the upper hand and I know that you are with me
on this one. True or not
Before I get to that please refrain from giving me links. If you want explain in your own word form you own understand what that evidence is.
In Islam we have to two types of evidence.
The first rational evidence.
Explained by this short Arabic proverb.
A camel dropping in the desert points the world the passing of a camel.
The second is the revelation.
That is the Noble Quran a one of a kind book.
Do you want to know more.
Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claims that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, it is nonsensical for him to expect others to believe him on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong. Russell's teapot is still referred to in discussions concerning the existence of God.
Yes, bring on your "facts" lol
What and interesting tread I found here. I am Muslim and I challenge every atheist to prove that God does not exists.
After that I will come with rational evidence that He does.
So who´s up for the challenge
I don't know and neither do you. You have faith and that is all you can claim.
XXX God/s - Personally I don't wish it to be true and shutter at the thought of it being so.
I guess you do want to know more. So I will continue
Let me first explain. The first evidence used. The example about the camel.
Ever hear of the theory of intelligent design. A design need a designer I quoting Plato here or some other wise Greek.
Lets say you walk in the jungle and you find a hut with a burning fire and a cooking pot on it with a nice smelling soup cooking inside. What would your first thought be.
Would you first though be. The wind blow and the tree and leaf fell and the hut was formed. The cooking pot oohh there must have been some kind of explosion that melted the iron and the cooking pot come to be. The some animal fell in died and then rain filled it with water. Then probably lighting struck and ignited the fire and after some time the soup got cooking.
Or would it be somebody build that hut make a cooking pot. Went hunting and collecting got some water from the river started the fore and probably will be back soon.
Now look at the world around you the sun the sky the moon the earth. Those thing are far more complex then that cooking pot and soup.
This is rational evidence that the must be a Creator.
And now you want to see that there is now prove of a Creator.
And to you Lefty I say. You might not know but I do.
There is a problem with translation. When it comes to faith we have something that is lost in translation.
The English understand of faith is that you always have some doubt.
In Arabic the words that is translate to faith is Eemaan. And Arabic is an language that unlike English which a concept language. By that I mean you have a sound a word and to that word is giving a meaning. Arabic is a language that is based on root and pattern. That means that there is a three letter root verb. And form that root
Al lot of meaning can be derived. The root for the word Eemaan is Amana means something like safety or security.
To make a long story short. When I see in Arabic Eemaan I mean to say I know for sure with out a shadow of a doubt that in this cause God exists. Firstly based on the rational evidence as explained above.
Do you want to know more
LEFTY If I may be so bold an ask you why do you not wish it to be true and shutter at the thought if it,
That there is a God that care about you and wishes only the best for you.
There is no compulsion in religion all is based on free will to chose.
And if I can quote Lieutenant Razcak from Starship Troopers. The freedom to chose is the only real freedom any one has
Wish you all the best
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What and interesting tread I found here. I am Muslim and I challenge every atheist to prove that God does not exists.
After that I will come with rational evidence that He does.
So who´s up for the challenge
this is illogical. the burden of proof lies on you, the proponent of this hypothesis.
should i claim unicorns and dragons exist and then simply call upon you to prove that they don't?
furthermore, nothing can be proven to be "real" other than your own mind. how can you prove that the entire world isn't actually some grand computer simulation that we forgot we are taking part in, and thus have assumed it is the whole of reality? good luck proving anything at all to the people who hang around this forum, lol.
At this point I am not yet there to in to your statement. And if I would give an answer if would probably would not satisfy you at this point atleast.
I can only answers for myself.
In the Quran Allah say that he created the heaven and the earth in six day. And the Quran as a book has no equal.
But God willing we will get to that point later.
Wish you all the best
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On the contrary there is enough evidence.
We are not like Christians that base there whole religion on blind faith.
Islam is a religion of reason.
So what is stronger blind faith or reason. I say reason has the upper hand and I know that you are with me
on this one. True or not
Before I get to that please refrain from giving me links. If you want explain in your own word form you own understand what that evidence is.
In Islam we have to two types of evidence.
The first rational evidence.
Explained by this short Arabic proverb.
A camel dropping in the desert points the world the passing of a camel.
The second is the revelation.
That is the Noble Quran a one of a kind book.
Do you want to know more.
Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claims that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, it is nonsensical for him to expect others to believe him on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong. Russell's teapot is still referred to in discussions concerning the existence of God.
Yes, bring on your "facts" lol
What and interesting tread I found here. I am Muslim and I challenge every atheist to prove that God does not exists.
After that I will come with rational evidence that He does.
So who´s up for the challenge
I don't know and neither do you. You have faith and that is all you can claim.
XXX God/s - Personally I don't wish it to be true and shutter at the thought of it being so.
I guess you do want to know more. So I will continue
Let me first explain. The first evidence used. The example about the camel.
Ever hear of the theory of intelligent design. A design need a designer I quoting Plato here or some other wise Greek.
Lets say you walk in the jungle and you find a hut with a burning fire and a cooking pot on it with a nice smelling soup cooking inside. What would your first thought be.
Would you first though be. The wind blow and the tree and leaf fell and the hut was formed. The cooking pot oohh there must have been some kind of explosion that melted the iron and the cooking pot come to be. The some animal fell in died and then rain filled it with water. Then probably lighting struck and ignited the fire and after some time the soup got cooking.
Or would it be somebody build that hut make a cooking pot. Went hunting and collecting got some water from the river started the fore and probably will be back soon.
Now look at the world around you the sun the sky the moon the earth. Those thing are far more complex then that cooking pot and soup.
This is rational evidence that the must be a Creator.
And now you want to see that there is now prove of a Creator.
And to you Lefty I say. You might not know but I do.
There is a problem with translation. When it comes to faith we have something that is lost in translation.
The English understand of faith is that you always have some doubt.
In Arabic the words that is translate to faith is Eemaan. And Arabic is an language that unlike English which a concept language. By that I mean you have a sound a word and to that word is giving a meaning. Arabic is a language that is based on root and pattern. That means that there is a three letter root verb. And form that root
Al lot of meaning can be derived. The root for the word Eemaan is Amana means something like safety or security.
To make a long story short. When I see in Arabic Eemaan I mean to say I know for sure with out a shadow of a doubt that in this cause God exists. Firstly based on the rational evidence as explained above.
Do you want to know more
LEFTY If I may be so bold an ask you why do you not wish it to be true and shutter at the thought if it,
That there is a God that care about you and wishes only the best for you.
There is no compulsion in religion all is based on free will to chose.
And if I can quote Lieutenant Razcak from Starship Troopers. The freedom to chose is the only real freedom any one has
Wish you all the best
Who created the creator? Where did allah come from? If allah was able to create everything then surely he is very complex. Where did he come from?
Also you say that god "cares about us and wishes only the best for us" Why then would this all powerful god create evil in the world? Why did god/ allah create natural disasters, disease, hunger, ect? Does god lack the power to do anything about the worlds problems, or does he not care about us?
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That is why he is the Creator. The Ever Living The Ever Lasting. The One. The First The Last. Those Are just a some off the 99 of his names. He is Perfect.
The Creates but is not Created. He feeds but is not feed. And nobody is worthy of worship expect him
If you expect that creation has a Creator. And then go on asking who created the Creator. You will get on endless circle. Who created that creator and who is the creator of the creator of the creator. You catch my drift
There can be only one.
And He is complex I am curious my self yearn can not wait to meet Him.
If you are curious about the truth. Ask Allah to show you the true. And he will repond.
Just keep on asking a lot He likes that.
I wish you the best and may Allah guide you to the truth
Do you want to know more
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Why do I wish it not to be true? Well I will name a few.
You would have to enjoy the thought of a "something" who could convict you for your thoughts while you were awake or sleeping. There is no escape for it even after your death. It would mean one or more of the interpretations currently on Earth enforcing "something's" laws were to be true and need to be followed. Which hierarchies or group of priests would that be? Am I then to be forcefully circumcised if that was "something's" wish. The idea of living under a totalitarian system has zero appeal for me and this would be the ultimate system for that. Servility is not my thang. Believe what you wish if that gives you inner peace with yourself and others.
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Going back to your analogy, when you say allah is "everlasting" to me it sounds like you would assume that the camp found in the jungle has always been there and it will be there forever. I cant see how this is logical at all.
The concept of a creator goes in loops because it is circular logic. That was my point.
How do we know that muslims are the "correct" religion. Can you disprove other religions? How do we know that the scientologists, the christians, the jews, the mormons, ect. are wrong while the muslims are correct.
Also if you could address the point about why this wonderful god would allow so much evil in the world that would be awesome. Why did god/ allah create natural disasters, disease, hunger, ect? Does god lack the power to do anything about the worlds problems, or does he not care about us?
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Why do I wish it not to be true? Well I will name a few.
You would have to enjoy the thought of a "something" who could convict you for your thoughts while you were awake or sleeping. There is no escape for it even after your death. It would mean one or more of the interpretations currently on Earth enforcing "something's" laws were to be true and need to be followed. Which hierarchies or group of priests would that be? Am I then to be forcefully circumcised if that was "something's" wish. The idea of living under a totalitarian system has zero appeal for me and this would be the ultimate system for that. Servility is not my thang. Believe what you wish if that gives you inner peace with yourself and others.
Firstly. You will not be convicted for what you for your thought. Example if you plan on robbing some one but do not do it. Then in fact you get a good deed add you record. And if you do a bad deed then you only get a 1 bad deed add to your sheet. Of course somethings are action of the heart like believe for with you also get a reward.
Thirdly in Islam opposed to other religion there is no priest caste. Yes there are scholar that explain the religions evidence according to the right understanding. And based upon that apply that to law.
Thirdly the is now forced circumcision if you chose to inter Islam and do not want to be circumcised for some reason. That may be consider a sin. But Allah can forgive all sins except Shirk (arabic term for polytheism). And there is no compulsion in religion all is based on free will.
A totalitarian system in my opinion is not a bad thing as long a the ruler is just and the state cares for its citizens. And the state is there for the people instead the other way around. Like it is now.
On a side not. In Islam taking tax is forbidden and so is interest.
In the Quran there is a verse that say something like this.
Those that follow my guides (Islam) the will not grive and will not fear.
Other verse. We (Allah) will give them an easy life.
I ask of you do you have inner peace. Do you worry the you fear death?
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What and interesting tread I found here. I am Muslim and I challenge every atheist to prove that God does not exists.
After that I will come with rational evidence that He does.
So who´s up for the challenge
this is illogical. the burden of proof lies on you, the proponent of this hypothesis.
should i claim unicorns and dragons exist and then simply call upon you to prove that they don't?
furthermore, nothing can be proven to be "real" other than your own mind. how can you prove that the entire world isn't actually some grand computer simulation that we forgot we are taking part in, and thus have assumed it is the whole of reality? good luck proving anything at all to the people who hang around this forum, lol.
At this point I am not yet there to in to your statement. And if I would give an answer if would probably would not satisfy you at this point atleast.
I can only answers for myself.
In the Quran Allah say that he created the heaven and the earth in six day. And the Quran as a book has no equal.
But God willing we will get to that point later.
Wish you all the best
what do books written by people have to do with god? do you really think the word of god can be translated into human languages?
also, curious, have you used any psychedelics extensively? did they reinforce your religious beliefs?
even more curious, what drugs is a hard-line Muslim dude here to buy? I thought all intoxicants were deemed sinful by Islam?
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Going back to your analogy, when you say allah is "everlasting" to me it sounds like you would assume that the camp found in the jungle has always been there and it will be there forever. I cant see how this is logical at all.
The concept of a creator goes in loops because it is circular logic. That was my point.
How do we know that muslims are the "correct" religion. Can you disprove other religions? How do we know that the scientologists, the christians, the jews, the mormons, ect. are wrong while the muslims are correct.
Also if you could address the point about why this wonderful god would allow so much evil in the world that would be awesome. Why did god/ allah create natural disasters, disease, hunger, ect? Does god lack the power to do anything about the worlds problems, or does he not care about us?
the Analogy of the camp is this world. Like the camp it had to come form somewhere. The chance of a camp forming on its self is highly unlikely. The camp must have had a creator so this world most have a creator.
Yes Islam can disprove all other religion. I on the other cannot not. I would have to do some research. And would gladly do. Some can be disprove with reason other with evidence for the Quran and the saying of the Prophet.
How ever I can shortly point out the flaw of the Christians. The original sin. Does not make any sense and goes against what is said in the bible that the son cannot bear the sin of the father or the father the sin of the son. There main point of there religion goes against the teaching of there own book.
Then in the bible it says that you should not make images of God. In the Quran it says he is onlike his creation. So Allah is not a man with a beard in the sky. To think that is just silly.
Then every Christian sect has a different bible the King James version the Catholic version the what every version. The orignal bible was writing in Aramiac the language Jesus spoke. Then it was translate in Greek then in to Latin then in to English. How much do you think was lost in translation.
Might I add that the Quran is the only scripture that is unchanged and is still in its original form since its revaltion. Proven by not Muslim scholar.
Then that God has a son. Before I became Muslim in really had doubts about it. For my it never made sense why would God need a son. Christians say so he could die for our sins. So God the All Might God could not find an other way to forgive the sins of the people and would let an innocent man die. Does not sound very just to me.
The morons sorry mormons believe that there has been a prophet after the Prophet Muhammed and in the Quran it says that Prophet Muhammed is the seal of the Prophets.
On the scientologists I have one two world. Space Aliens. And there are very cult like. I you want to leave die might kill you. And to move higher up and read the higher level books you have to pay more.
In Islam there is no secret knowledge and all books are free do download.
The Jews know that the Prophet Muhammed is a true Prophet just like the new that Jesus was a true Prophet. But because Prophet Muhammed was an Arabic. And the Arabs are descended from Abraham and a slave woman. The consider the Arabs less then them. Basically racist reasons.
The is a verse in the Quran that says. They recognize you (Muhammed) better then they recognize there on sons. Also there is a verse in the Thorah where the name Muhammed is mentioned. With the Hebrew plural im of respect. Many language have a form where when talking about a single person with respect they add a plural Russian, Arabic, Hebrew.
Yes I would like to address the last point of your post but if you would not mind I will do that in my next point.
Allah is Almight an he does care about the people you have food right, health, clothing, a house.
So things are based on free choice. If some body jumps of a brigde and die is it Allah fault.
And bad thing happen to test people. This world is not paradise nor is it meant to be. If this would be paradise no bad thing would happen right?
The Prophet Muhammed said if something bad happens to a believer and he is patient it is good for him and if something good happens and he is grateful it good form.
And in the Quran Allah say Allah does not wrong anybody they them self have wronged there on self's
Will can do deeper on do that later but I have to go now
Do you want to know more
I wish you the best.
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It is interesting to ponder on the mysteries of the universe. They will take you out of this world.
There is no quantifiable proof of God. Only in your heart does proof of God exist. For what use is faith if the knowledge of God was like the daily newspaper. And this is not blind faith, but faith based upon experience of the divine, or the sacred. If you experience such things there is no question of Gods existence. And by God, I don't mean a man in the clouds with a long white beard. No, I mean God as in the part of every one of us that has the ability to commune with a timeless aspect of the universe. For it is in timelessness that God exists. And if we are made aware of this timelessness and know how to communicate with it, the realization of Gods immanent and transcendent presence is wholly understood.
What does this mean? It means that God is everywhere and fills all things. And it is up to us, our own intellect and understanding to bring forth the concept of God from the created world. SO to those who say God does not exist, that is fine, you are simply living your life away from the divine realms. In my opinion the only thing wrong with that is that your are missing out on the true beauty of life. And for some people, this is all they need in life. If I was to condemn and harass people for not believing in God, what sort of a person would I be? Worse than he. Free will was Gods gift/curse to the human race. Perceive it how you will.
Indeed, all the posters here seem to bring up the idea that organized religions are actually causing evil in the world. I pose this thought. Do you truly believe organized religion is the cause of heartache? If religion was indeed invented by humans, so was the evil that comes with it.
Take war for an example. We have known wars to be undertaken in Gods name. However, we have also known wars to be undertaken in a nationalistic name too. Wherein here lies the constant? Is it because of organized religion that evil takes place? Or is it simply human nature to contain the opposing forces of Good and Evil, for which we must decide ourselves.
Is it not a contradiction to say that organized religion causes people to do bad things, so by association God causes people to do bad things? It seems that this mindset is also one that you all criticize religion for, that is, not taking responsibility for ones own actions. Would it not be more accurate to say that human beings have a tendency to not want to take responsibility for their own actions. (Indeed, this is the crux of the fall of Adam).
God came to Adam in the cool of the day and asked where he was. Adam answered and said, "I am hiding for I realized I was naked and I became ashamed".
God answered, "Who told you you were naked?"
"The woman WHOM YOU GAVE ME, gave me to eat, so I did"
God to Eve: "Why did you eat of the forbidden fruit"
Eve: "The serpent tempted me and I did eat"
What do we see in this exchange? In its most simplest form, it is a human being not taking responsibility for his actions, but rather passes the blame. And so, as a result, we have fallen from grace.
Can you truly say that not taking responsibility for ones own actions is a trait of those who believe in God? I think that you will find that anyone with some theological understanding, will tell you that it is human, and to believe in God is to actually accept responsibility for your own choices in this life, for if you don't, you simply perpetuate the fall of man.
This is a kind of topic that whole books are written about so we can't wish to even begin to cover the base line.
I suggest reading such authors:
Phillip Sherrard
Gregory Palamas
Gregory of Nyssa
These sort of forum arguments will go nowhere, because I feel, that most responders base their knowledge on popular belief and rumors, rather than exploring the depths of both sides of the argument.
I think that fence siting is the worst. The whole "I don't believe in God but I am open to a higher power" is a complete contradiction. All you are doing there is sparing yourself of the connotations people will place on your if you label yourself and a God believer, but at the same time, in fear of being wrong, leave your options open.
Also, finally, I often wonder how people who don't believe in God live day by day. For what gives meaning to your life? Yourself? Society? Others? If I could get some answers there that would be great, for I am truly curious as to how you understand the world. My personal opinion is that you are missing out on the true beauty the world has to offer. Please correct me if I am wrong in saying this.
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I love how Allah keeps being referred to as "He". I didn't know Allah had a penis. I learned something today.
Plus this discussion proves a theory that religion does nothing except cause arguments and wars. Our God is better than yours etc, we are the true divine people etc. No tolerance of others, no respect, no love.
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How ever I can shortly point out the flaw of the Christians. The original sin. Does not make any sense and goes against what is said in the bible that the son cannot bear the sin of the father or the father the sin of the son. There main point of there religion goes against the teaching of there own book.
Then in the bible it says that you should not make images of God. In the Quran it says he is onlike his creation. So Allah is not a man with a beard in the sky. To think that is just silly.
In relation to such statements, and funnily enough, to the rest of your posts jundullahi, I think you should do some research (in general, but specially here) before you expound upon Christian theology so light heatedly.
I'm not sure what your concept of original sin is, but maybe you should read about it a bit and see where its understanding originates, and also clarify your points. For Original sin is particular to western Christianity. In relation to your bible quote, we as the children of Adam to not bear the sin of Adam. Rather we have inherited the consequences of his actions. We should not feel guilty for what he did, for that was his free choice. Just as you don't feel guilty for your friends free choices.
Also, in terms of images. The idea that God is a man in the clouds with a long white beard was birthed in Renaissance art. So once again, you have a very shallow understanding of what you are arguing. Are you blaming all Christians for an art movement that occurred 1500 or so years after Christianity itself? Indeed is seems as if you are including such things in christian doctrine.
So in response to your last statement, To think that God is a man with a beard in the sky is just as SILLY as thinking that allah is a man with a beard in the sky. In other words. BOTH ARE SILLY.
Do your research and don't pick on such irregularities that have no relation to actual christian doctrine.
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I love how Allah keeps being referred to as "He". I didn't know Allah had a penis. I learned something today.
Plus this discussion proves a theory that religion does nothing except cause arguments and wars. Our God is better than yours etc, we are the true divine people etc. No tolerance of others, no respect, no love.
You pretty much just became my example.
Why blame religion for the argument. Religion is not the cause, it is the subject. If religion was non existent, do you think humans would not argue? If you do, you probs need to re think your life a bit.
If the subject was to cease, the it would simply be replaced. It almost has been, by politics. I think more people argue about politics and politics causes more wars than religion.
So whos fault is all this? Religions? Politics? NO NO NO
We have no one to blame but ourselves for this incessant bickering.
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I love how Allah keeps being referred to as "He". I didn't know Allah had a penis. I learned something today.
Plus this discussion proves a theory that religion does nothing except cause arguments and wars. Our God is better than yours etc, we are the true divine people etc. No tolerance of others, no respect, no love.
You pretty much just became my example.
Why blame religion for the argument. Religion is not the cause, it is the subject. If religion was non existent, do you think humans would not argue? If you do, you probs need to re think your life a bit.
If the subject was to cease, the it would simply be replaced. It almost has been, by politics. I think more people argue about politics and politics causes more wars than religion.
So whos fault is all this? Religions? Politics? NO NO NO
We have no one to blame but ourselves for this incessant bickering.
Of course people would continue to argue but that's not really the point is it? How much blood has been spilled in the name of Christianity or Islam? I think you will find it is rather a lot.
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I love how Allah keeps being referred to as "He". I didn't know Allah had a penis. I learned something today.
Plus this discussion proves a theory that religion does nothing except cause arguments and wars. Our God is better than yours etc, we are the true divine people etc. No tolerance of others, no respect, no love.
The make a valid point. About Allah referring to him self a He. Because the Quran was revealed in Arabic.
And Arabic words are either feminine or masculine. And in the Quran Allah said that he created man a step above the woman. There are various scientific reason that prove this point. But that is beyond the scope of this reply.
So because in Arabic something is either he or she its is logical that Allah would be referred to as He.
And about him have a penis. Well in the Quran He says
He neither begot anyone, nor he was begotten
Then if He want something do. He says be and it is.
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I love how Allah keeps being referred to as "He". I didn't know Allah had a penis. I learned something today.
Plus this discussion proves a theory that religion does nothing except cause arguments and wars. Our God is better than yours etc, we are the true divine people etc. No tolerance of others, no respect, no love.
You pretty much just became my example.
Why blame religion for the argument. Religion is not the cause, it is the subject. If religion was non existent, do you think humans would not argue? If you do, you probs need to re think your life a bit.
If the subject was to cease, the it would simply be replaced. It almost has been, by politics. I think more people argue about politics and politics causes more wars than religion.
So whos fault is all this? Religions? Politics? NO NO NO
We have no one to blame but ourselves for this incessant bickering.
I agree. If you boiled down the reason for war and conflict between people and nations as a hollow. I cause down to one a difference of option and if the parties cannot find or are on willing the find a peaceful solution then the sword are draw and blood it blood shedding time. Those reason can be religious but most of then then not is has been about territory, power, nationalism. Look at the most bloody war in recent history. The second world war its was not about religion.
I wish you best and in the next life succes.
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The second world war its was not about religion.
Well that's that settled then. I guess it was just coincidence that 6 million Jews were executed.
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The second world war its was not about religion.
Well that's that settled then. I guess it was just coincidence that 6 million Jews were executed.
1+, to be fair, he's not that wrong, it wasn't really about religion, but more about their fascistic ideology which caused such casualties.
In my opinion, religion is a means used to oppress the people and especially to cloud their judgement.
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The second world war its was not about religion.
Well that's that settled then. I guess it was just coincidence that 6 million Jews were executed.
1+, to be fair, he's not that wrong, it wasn't really about religion, but more about their fascistic ideology which caused such casualties.
In my opinion, religion is a means used to oppress the people and especially to cloud their judgement.
plus 1
True some religion have been used to oppress the people. Christianity was a fact did a lot of oppression, like science and scientists because the fact conflicted with there doctrine and ended turning people away from God.
Islam on the other hand never oppressed people. A lost of important scientific research was done in the Islamic golden age. Thing about algebra, the concept of zero was finished. And most of the surgical tools used today have been improved or invented by Muslims.
Islam is a religion of reason. If you would read the Quran. You would find that many verse speak about.
To they not think. In the creation of the heavens and the earth are signs for people that think.
So in now is Islam trying to cloud judgement. On the contrary is challenges people to think and to ponder the nature of existence and life.
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The second world war its was not about religion.
Well that's that settled then. I guess it was just coincidence that 6 million Jews were executed.
Well in some circles there is still debate about where 6 million jews really was murder.
But any way. If so there where not murder for there religious conviction. But because the germans thought they where superior to them. Because the were aryans. So this was a racial issue. Not a religious one.
Then that racial issues again comes the form denying that all people are descended for Adam. So now person is racially superior to any other because in a sense we are all brothers and sister.
The evolution theory is the main suspect here because if according to the doctrine of evolution doctrine some races must be less evolved then other and thus so inferior.
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From my rotting body, flowers shall grow and I am in them and that is eternity.
Edvard Munch
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So after you body has rotten away where does you soul go?
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So after you body has rotten away where does you soul go?
I don,t know i hope to permanent extase for me its difficult to believe in black/white hell /heaven there must be a middle way nuance,you get me?
think i,m agnostic ,i let things open and believe if you,ve a good heart everything will be all allright. I hate hypocrite ppl
Most times i see non believers who help others that,s good karma.
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I hate hypocrites to there are the worst kind off people.
The action is based on its intention.
And good and bad a subjective.
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I hate hypocrites to there are the worst kind off people.
The action is based on its intention.
And good and bad a subjective.
agree What,s the intention you never know(actions speaks louder than words)
and yes all is subjective,but we have common values.
Practice will show the truth
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What would need to happen you for you to believe in a single Creator All Might God?
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The second world war its was not about religion.
Well that's that settled then. I guess it was just coincidence that 6 million Jews were executed.
1+, to be fair, he's not that wrong, it wasn't really about religion, but more about their fascistic ideology which caused such casualties.
In my opinion, religion is a means used to oppress the people and especially to cloud their judgement.
plus 1
True some religion have been used to oppress the people. Christianity was a fact did a lot of oppression, like science and scientists because the fact conflicted with there doctrine and ended turning people away from God.
Islam on the other hand never oppressed people. A lost of important scientific research was done in the Islamic golden age. Thing about algebra, the concept of zero was finished. And most of the surgical tools used today have been improved or invented by Muslims.
Islam is a religion of reason. If you would read the Quran. You would find that many verse speak about.
To they not think. In the creation of the heavens and the earth are signs for people that think.
So in now is Islam trying to cloud judgement. On the contrary is challenges people to think and to ponder the nature of existence and life.
Islam oppresses women, how can you say it has never oppressed people?
What would need to happen you for you to believe in a single Creator All Might God?
There would have to be facts that back the assumption up. The quran or bible or any holy book has no proof, they just make unverifiable bold claims about a creator. If god is so great and powerful, why doesn't he prove himself to the non-believers?
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Going back to your analogy, when you say allah is "everlasting" to me it sounds like you would assume that the camp found in the jungle has always been there and it will be there forever. I cant see how this is logical at all.
The concept of a creator goes in loops because it is circular logic. That was my point.
How do we know that muslims are the "correct" religion. Can you disprove other religions? How do we know that the scientologists, the christians, the jews, the mormons, ect. are wrong while the muslims are correct.
Also if you could address the point about why this wonderful god would allow so much evil in the world that would be awesome. Why did god/ allah create natural disasters, disease, hunger, ect? Does god lack the power to do anything about the worlds problems, or does he not care about us?
the Analogy of the camp is this world. Like the camp it had to come form somewhere. The chance of a camp forming on its self is highly unlikely. The camp must have had a creator so this world most have a creator.
Yes Islam can disprove all other religion. I on the other cannot not. I would have to do some research. And would gladly do. Some can be disprove with reason other with evidence for the Quran and the saying of the Prophet.
How ever I can shortly point out the flaw of the Christians. The original sin. Does not make any sense and goes against what is said in the bible that the son cannot bear the sin of the father or the father the sin of the son. There main point of there religion goes against the teaching of there own book.
Then in the bible it says that you should not make images of God. In the Quran it says he is onlike his creation. So Allah is not a man with a beard in the sky. To think that is just silly.
Then every Christian sect has a different bible the King James version the Catholic version the what every version. The orignal bible was writing in Aramiac the language Jesus spoke. Then it was translate in Greek then in to Latin then in to English. How much do you think was lost in translation.
Might I add that the Quran is the only scripture that is unchanged and is still in its original form since its revaltion. Proven by not Muslim scholar.
Then that God has a son. Before I became Muslim in really had doubts about it. For my it never made sense why would God need a son. Christians say so he could die for our sins. So God the All Might God could not find an other way to forgive the sins of the people and would let an innocent man die. Does not sound very just to me.
The morons sorry mormons believe that there has been a prophet after the Prophet Muhammed and in the Quran it says that Prophet Muhammed is the seal of the Prophets.
On the scientologists I have one two world. Space Aliens. And there are very cult like. I you want to leave die might kill you. And to move higher up and read the higher level books you have to pay more.
In Islam there is no secret knowledge and all books are free do download.
The Jews know that the Prophet Muhammed is a true Prophet just like the new that Jesus was a true Prophet. But because Prophet Muhammed was an Arabic. And the Arabs are descended from Abraham and a slave woman. The consider the Arabs less then them. Basically racist reasons.
The is a verse in the Quran that says. They recognize you (Muhammed) better then they recognize there on sons. Also there is a verse in the Thorah where the name Muhammed is mentioned. With the Hebrew plural im of respect. Many language have a form where when talking about a single person with respect they add a plural Russian, Arabic, Hebrew.
Yes I would like to address the last point of your post but if you would not mind I will do that in my next point.
Allah is Almight an he does care about the people you have food right, health, clothing, a house.
So things are based on free choice. If some body jumps of a brigde and die is it Allah fault.
And bad thing happen to test people. This world is not paradise nor is it meant to be. If this would be paradise no bad thing would happen right?
The Prophet Muhammed said if something bad happens to a believer and he is patient it is good for him and if something good happens and he is grateful it good form.
And in the Quran Allah say Allah does not wrong anybody they them self have wronged there on self's
Will can do deeper on do that later but I have to go now
Do you want to know more
I wish you the best.
I understand you applied the analogy of the camp to the world, I am applying the analogy of the camp to the creator. You said the creator is very complex, much more so than the camp. Why then do you assume the camp (creator) has always been there and will always be there? Is there any scientific proof to back up your beliefs?
You dismissed many other religions because the quran doesn't back up their teachings. It is interesting that you quick to dismiss other holy books, but hold the quran in high regard. Do you understand that in order to convince people that the quran is legitimate, you need info and facts from outside the quran.
Think of how little sense it would make to hear a mormon backing up their beliefs with stories from the book of mormon. If you don't already believe in the book of mormon, then the stories in the book of mormon don't carry much weight. The same applies to the quran. I dont believe in the quran, so when you say that you know something because the quran tells us so, it doesn't convince me at all. It is circular logic based on the assumption that the quran is correct. To prove it is true, you will need facts from outside a holy book.
On to god giving us bad things to "test" people. Why would a loving and all knowing god want/ need to test us? If god is all powerful, then he already knows what we will do or chose. If god gives us free will, then he is not all powerful because he cannot control our actions.
Finally do you do drugs? I ask because i assume people on this message board do drugs, and I though followers of Islam were not suppose to drink and do drugs.
So after you body has rotten away where does you soul go?
“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
― Mark Twain
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Did ever read the Quran. Did you know that there is science in the Quran.
Like verse describing the Big Bang.
How the child grows in the human body.
I has been scientifically prove that iron does not come from earth. And in there Quran there is a chapter where Allah says that We send down Iron to benefit mankind.
And Islam does not oppress women. A lot is based on point of view. Do you know any Muslim women those that knew there religion and life by it. Go ask them if the are oppressed. I would say that western civilization oppress women by making the conform to the image that is made by fashion that you breast have to by this big. Your fast this thin and etc. I know enough Muslim women who out of free will wear a niqaab and head scarf.
Islam gave women right. In a time when
Christian priest were still discussing whether women where human or animals.
Did you know that most revert to Islam are women and Islam is the fastest growing religion?
Look heavysmoker if the fact that creation exist does not convince you that there is a Creator. Maybe you should
ask him God if you do exist show a sign. I one why or on other we will answer. And then it all about free will
This world is to complex to have come in to existence by pure chance.
Oke about the Quran is not like the bible.
Every Messenger was send with a miracle to prove that he was a true messenger from God. And every miracle specific to its time. In the time of Moses the people where highly learned in witchcraft so Moses had a miracle that was more power then that.
Jesus healed the leapers and rise the death by the will of God.
In the time of the Prophet Muhammed the Arabs where highly learned in the poetry and Eloquent speech. So there came a men who was illiterate. And blow them away with verse that were like poetry but off a kind they never heard. And the Quran in the posses a challenge to anybody to reproduce a single chapter if you are in doubt about it origin. And the shortest Chapter has 3 verse of each verse has 3 words. And 1400 later none have been ably to reproduce single chapter or verse.
If are sincere and looking for truth. You can order an English translation of the Quran for free.
Like said before Islam is a religion of reason. And like I said there is no compulsion in religion.
Can I force you to believe. No I cannot. Can I force you to pray 5 time a day? No.
Only thing I can do is reason with you in the best of ways.
Do you want to know more?
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Women are oppressed in Islamic countries. Look as saudi arabia for example. Women can not run for political office, they can not drive cars. If their rights are not equal to a mans, then they are oppressed.
To answer your question, yes i have read alot of the quran. I admit, i have not read the whole quran cover to cover, but i have read alot of it because i know there are hundreds of millions of people who live their life by the book and i wanted to understand why they live their life that way.
Also, there is no way to prove the miracles that are written about in holy books actually happened. There is an abundance of evidence for the Holocaust, and as you said there are still many doubters.
There is even less evidence of any miracles actually happening, so surely you can understand why people would doubt the validity of the miracles that are written about in the quran, bible, book of mormon, ect.
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Yes it not scientifically possibly to prove God exist. But I is also not possibly scientifically possibly. But it does not mean He does not exist.
Before the invention of the microscoop it was not possible to prove that bacteria existed right. Did it mean that they did not exist?
The I dont not disregard to other religious books. The bible the torah are revelations for God.
Muslims are required to believe in all the Prophets and Messengers and all revelations.
So I believe that the Bible in its original form is from God and I believe that the Torah in the original from is from God. But with time the priests altered the books. And the truth became this distorted
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That is true but that part is culture and part Islamic Law. And there are reason for why. But you judge other by your standards. And Saudi is not the best example. There is not a single Muslim country that rules only by the Quran.
Arabs have always had a tendency to oppress women. This a cultural thing. And there is a difference culture and is Islam.
And I can back up the validity of the Quran from outside the Quran. Read above about the a man who could not read or write and came with verse that blow everybody away. And the challenge is still open. Nobody could come with some thing equal to the Quran even a single chapter.
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Yes it not scientifically possibly to prove God exist. But I is also not possibly scientifically possibly. But it does not mean He does not exist.
Before the invention of the microscoop it was not possible to prove that bacteria existed right. Did it mean that they did not exist?
The I dont not disregard to other religious books. The bible the torah are revelations for God.
Muslims are required to believe in all the Prophets and Messengers and all revelations.
So I believe that the Bible in its original form is from God and I believe that the Torah in the original from is from God. But with time the priests altered the books. And the truth became this distorted
No one was claiming that bacteria existed before they were discovered. Alot of people are making bold claims about god and no god has been discovered yet. Im not saying there is no god, im saying we have no scientific evidence of a god
If you have no hard scientific proof, then the beliefs are based on blind faith.
I can not live my life based on blind faith, i live my life based on verifiable facts.
What about the book of mormon or the scientologists? If you read their holy books, they claim to know the truth. How can you dismiss the book of mormon and believe in the quran when you admit it is not scientifically provable to show that one holy book is correct and the other is not? What if you are wrong?
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That is true but that part is culture and part Islamic Law. And there are reason for why. But you judge other by your standards. And Saudi is not the best example. There is not a single Muslim country that rules only by the Quran.
Arabs have always had a tendency to oppress women. This a cultural thing. And there is a difference culture and is Islam.
And I can back up the validity of the Quran from outside the Quran. Read above about the a man who could not read or write and came with verse that blow everybody away. And the challenge is still open. Nobody could come with some thing equal to the Quran even a single chapter.
I dont know the man who came up with the miraclous verse. How do i know it is not just a story, a tall tale.
Have you read about joeseph smith and the miraculous golden tablets he allegedly found in the book of mormon? According to the mormons, the tablets had the true word of god on them. How can i know which story to believe if there is no way to scientifically verify who is right and who is wrong?
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Like I said before Islam is not blind faith.
I am Muslim I know what I am talking about. Islam is a religion a reason.
I have prove. Every created things need a creator. That is rational evidence. For some people is enough to go on a search for.
There is science in the Quran.
Go on you tube. And search science in the Quran. Or science and Quran conflict or something like that.
Its time for morning pray here I so I go.
I wish you the best
and true succes afte death.
Friend
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Well where are those tablets
If you I see time I might believe that he is a true prophet.
But what kind of evidence will convince you
God willing tomorrow I will post that verse. And about the challenge. There are actually more then one verse possing this challenge.
Oke till next time.
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If it is not blind faith, then there has to be concrete facts from outside the quran to back up the info that is in the quran.
Every created thing needs a creator, except for the creator himself right. To me, that is a cop-out. Unless there is proof that the creator has always been and will always be i can not believe. To me, it sounds like you are saying the camp (or the creator) has just always been there.
I do not dispute there is some science in the quran, as i said i have read from the quran myself. That being said, a little science in parts of the quran does not make the whole quran scientifically accurate.
I also wish you the best in life. I appreciate the discussion we have had, and i apologize if i have offended you. I was raised religious by my parents, and i rejected the religion i was born into because it could not answer the same questions i am asking you.
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Well where are those tablets
If you I see time I might believe that he is a true prophet.
But what kind of evidence will convince you
God willing tomorrow I will post that verse. And about the challenge. There are actually more then one verse possing this challenge.
Oke till next time.
According to the mormons, after the plates with the word of god were translated and written in the book of mormon, the angle that had shown the plates to joeseph smith took the golden plates back. Apparently, there were many eyewitness as well.
I know you said before not to give you links, but this link has the information you asked for in greater detail than what i provided.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates#Returning_the_plates
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anything is possible, but i dont have any answers. sorry to disappoint you.
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which god you all on about? there's been too many to count over the years. i would think if any that dionysus would be pretty popular round here: god of wine, parties and festivals, madness, chaos, drunkenness, drugs, and ecstasy. i'm not superstitious though personally. shit happens. higher powers come in human/corporation form. religion has been a relatively successful way to control the masses and instill a sense of morals in the past but i think its time is pretty much up in western civilisation. i don't really mind if people are into it but if you talk about it to the point of boredom i won't want to chat to you. pretty much like vegetarians. just get on with it and accept differences of opinion without trying to convert other people to your belief system.
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which god you all on about? there's been too many to count over the years. i would think if any that dionysus would be pretty popular round here: god of wine, parties and festivals, madness, chaos, drunkenness, drugs, and ecstasy. i'm not superstitious though personally. shit happens. higher powers come in human/corporation form. religion has been a relatively successful way to control the masses and instill a sense of morals in the past but i think its time is pretty much up in western civilisation. i don't really mind if people are into it but if you talk about it to the point of boredom i won't want to chat to you. pretty much like vegetarians. just get on with it and accept differences of opinion without trying to convert other people to your belief system.
Well I do not now about which gods are talking about. There have been are a lot of gods still around. Buddah, Jesus, Shiva etc. First let me explain that in Arabic to word god is mistranslated it you would translate correctly with would be object of worship. I am talking about to only god worthy of worship and that is the Creator. So there are a lot of object of worship around the world but are the worthy of worship?
Lot at the state of moral decay in western civilization if the world need a religion is now more then every.
But we can agree to disagree.
And I am not trying to convert any one. Because I cannot. I am just conveying the message. I accept any body difference of opinion but any one want to debate this subject lets do so if not everybody is free to chose.
I wish you all the best
and true succes after death
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As a kid, being mostly interested in mathematics and science, I found myself strongly questioning the presence of belief in my family. As I approached graduation from high school, it really started to bother me. Reconciling my knowledge and application of what I at that point considered educated thought, and the dogma that I had been a part of my entire life to that point, was difficult. I was brought up Jewish, and I had a lot of questions at that point that in all reality I knew Judaism couldn't answer.
Many years later, I now still consider myself a Jew. The journey to that point, was an interesting one, and the majority of my current belief system actually stemmed from my journeys and experiences with other individuals and speaking with them about the very subject, drugs involved or not. Ultimately, I actually took a route that played very much to the knowledge seeking I had developed in my interest in academics. My interest in history became heightened, and I spent a great deal of time researching the concepts that I was confused about.
I didn't do this in an effort to prove or disprove the existence of God, and never once did it impede on the facts that science has brought forth. Evolution is what it is, and the genesis of a solar system and the very universe, is very much so still a principal that holds almost no bound within my personal religious dogma. Why should it have to? We don't know everything, and the idea that we ever will is an exercise in futility. I have no qualms with this, and I only seek to enhance my mind through my short journey in life. There are very specific concepts that I cannot reconcile with science. Life, as it were, is unusual. The human body is made up of its own body of life - there are biomes throughout that are teeming with life. That life may, or may not, play an even bigger role in who we are than our limited existence in and of itself. What is that life like? Our place in that circle is strange to me. We are a body full of life, just as the Earth is. As far as we know, Mars at some point looked like Earth too. What was life there like?
Douglas Adams humorously applied the very concept of life's unknown. There are many other examples. 42 has become an icon in most of our culture, simply from the completely strange, but oddly informative, answer to 'THE question.' I've always been fond of one of his character's interpretation of the same. Slarty Bartfast actually is one of my favorite characters from the entire series. "Perhaps I'm old and tired, but I think that the chances of finding out what's actually going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say, "Hang the sense of it," and keep yourself busy. I'd much rather be happy than right any day." This quote was in the modern movie, and for the death of me I can't remember if it was actually in the book - I'm a little tired and that is what I get. This quote though, really stuck with me when I heard it watching the modern movie interpretation. I try to be right a lot, and it usually does not lead to happiness. I surely would prefer to be happy.
All the same, Adams' had another silly interpretation as an entry in the guide. The guide states on flying: "There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." This is actually a small part of a very large definition, but, I think this whimsical look at things is a great way to look at things.
After I grew up a bit further and started experimenting, and I found myself with extremely interesting people that I enjoyed speaking with even when we disagreed, it ultimately led me to a different bit of thinking much like Adams. Many people like to say, that religion is a creation of man. That is true. I took this to heart, and applied it to my own belief system, and it made my eventual conclusion extremely simple. I'm a Jew, not because I believe God is real, but because I believe in what is underneath that religious context. If you remove God, and the mythological sense from the Torah, it is nothing more than an extremely old book of law. It centers very distinctly around the family, and, it applied very simple laws around the protection of something precious: Life. It is not hard to see why 3000+ years ago, that when Hebrews refused to eat pork while those that did got sick, why that turned into savior from God. We now understand the diseases and the appropriate handling of pork, and we are safer because of that. This may make this particular law obsolete, but the message doesn't change. Dr. Seuss uses easy to understand symbols and images to capture young children and generate interest in reading. Its through this that literacy rates skyrocketed. The cat & the hat was an easy belief system to generate that desire. Why must God be wrong, if it helps in the bettering of people?
Honestly, the existence of bad people that use religion as their fuel... should not make religion bad. There have been individuals who did the same with science. Yes, blood has been spilt in many holy wars - but Opium was not a holy war, Mustard Gas/Agent orange/Napalm/VX/Sarin had nothing to do with religion, Rwanda and the other African genocides have nothing to do with religion... Slavery had nothing to do with religion...
There are plenty of bad things associated to religion - but its hardly fair to only account for those, and not account for those who didn't use God as an excuse.
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I grew up learning from my mom who is a yogini that Allah, Mohammed, Jesus and all other prophets are equals. I wouldn't change that for the world
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That is true but that part is culture and part Islamic Law. And there are reason for why. But you judge other by your standards. And Saudi is not the best example. There is not a single Muslim country that rules only by the Quran.
Arabs have always had a tendency to oppress women. This a cultural thing. And there is a difference culture and is Islam.
And I can back up the validity of the Quran from outside the Quran. Read above about the a man who could not read or write and came with verse that blow everybody away. And the challenge is still open. Nobody could come with some thing equal to the Quran even a single chapter.
I dont know the man who came up with the miraclous verse. How do i know it is not just a story, a tall tale.
Have you read about joeseph smith and the miraculous golden tablets he allegedly found in the book of mormon? According to the mormons, the tablets had the true word of god on them. How can i know which story to believe if there is no way to scientifically verify who is right and who is wrong?
This is the verse I promised you heavysmoker. Forgive for taking so long.
Chapther 2 verse 23
And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah (chapter) the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.
This is a challenge that has been standing for 1400 years. And may I remind you that the shortest chapter is only 3 verse with each 3 and the last one 4 words.
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I grew up learning from my mom who is a yogini that Allah, Mohammed, Jesus and all other prophets are equals. I wouldn't change that for the world
Allah is the creator God.
Jesus is a Messenger / Prophet. Only send to the Jews. Say it him self in the Bible.
Muhammed is the last Messenger / Prophet he is the seal of the Prophet hood. Send to all mankind.
Not all Prophets are the same some the differ in rank.
With all due respect to your mother. I dont think yes is the best source for religious knowledge. Those that studies the religions are.
But believe what ever you want.
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During the medieval period of the Enlightenment Ages, culture blossomed in a way it never had before; in terms of painting, sculpture and other arts, and music. It was also a time where people were beginning to open their eyes to some of the illusions that the Catholic church had been so effectively spreading - philosophers began to arise, explaining to the people that God was in fact a part of them, they were God, and possessed powers of creation that were not only limited to the divine. It was an important time of personal empowerment and freedom.
I feel that in some ways now, with the creation of global communities that hold ideologies that Silk Road is founded on, that we have been in a period of similar discovery where are realizing how to become even less limited by the indoctrinations of organized groups around us.
On an opposite scale though, the elders of many indigenous groups in Central America and the masters of different Eastern philosophies all say similar things; that in these changing times, we must develop a practice that facilitates for us a sense of connection to a higher divine power. Fostering this, is to help us gain a strong sense of ourselves by understanding that we are but a reflection of the universal energy we choose to believe in. This is to guide us towards a future where do not repeat the same mistakes we have been repeatedly making.
We are lucky to be living at a time and place where are free to choose how to live our lives, what to believe in, and how to show any level of commitment we decide on. This is not so for many individuals around the world, I feel it's important to appreciate that we even have the ability to be discussing this :)
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Even before the enlightenment in Europe began Islamic civilization was flourishing. And was in fact sparked by the beginning of the Islamic golden Age. Go check your history.
And the greatest philosophers where Greeks and men like the Chinese Confucius.
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Agnostic also, more atheist than agnostic. I have christian friends and when I'm over there house they gang up on you trying to recruit you into their twisted cult, hate that shit.
All the religious cultists do this, and they feel so smug and self righteous with it that they fail to see their own hypocrisy.
'we are the chosen ones, you are not, but you can be if you join us'
religion is for the weak, may they revel in it
truth is for the rest of us, and it is abhored by the religious
if we did away with ALL religions and their fools we would be IMMEDIATELY in a better world...
history is written by the winner - and therefore not worthy of much consideration unless your trying to prove something that needs forceful 'prooving'
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From your words I only understand you dont now any thing about religion.
You think religion is for the weak?
You try praying 5 times a day and fasting month.
What kind of truth are you talking about. Keep it short and simple explain it me like I am 5 year old.
If you cannot then you truth is just a guess.
Tell me do you fear death?
And that is true history is written by the victor. You be waiting and I will be waiting and will see you is right and who wrong. I am waiting
I never forced anyone or did I? Such trying to have civilized debate of I see you are on able to hand such a thing. And it wrong that his christian friend gang up on him. You can not force any one to believe. Can can debate with some one and if the chose not the believe well them him be.
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keep making things up, maybe you can ascend the ladder of the righteous.
i have kept things as short and simplified as i am willing to.
i do not force my opinions onto people and my aim with you is to show that your opinions are yours and not factual, you seem to find this a difficult concept to accept.
i wish you well but have little more to offer you, YOU have to open your own eyes
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Could you ever expect that maybe you are wrong?
I am grateful that you do not force your opinion upon we. So as do I do not force my opinion upon you.
I was trying bring prove that my opinion are based on fact and are factual. I consider myself an intelligent person I am interested in science and all that. And in my religion I have never found anything that contradict it.
And I with all due respect. I take you what you have said and return it
wish you well but have little more to offer you, YOU have to open your own eye.
PS I send you a PM. Please consider reading it.
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Could you ever expect that maybe you are wrong?
I am grateful that you do not force your opinion upon we. So as do I do not force my opinion upon you.
I was trying bring prove that my opinion are based on fact and are factual. I consider myself an intelligent person I am interested in science and all that. And in my religion I have never found anything that contradict it.
And I with all due respect. I take you what you have said and return it
wish you well but have little more to offer you, YOU have to open your own eye.
PS I send you a PM. Please consider reading it.
could you ever expect that maybe you are wrong?
from reading your posts, there hasn't been a whole lot of 'facts' that are clear.. all you really say is that there are a few scientific things in the queeran, whoopty do
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keep making things up, maybe you can ascend the ladder of the righteous.
i have kept things as short and simplified as i am willing to.
i do not force my opinions onto people and my aim with you is to show that your opinions are yours and not factual, you seem to find this a difficult concept to accept.
i wish you well but have little more to offer you, YOU have to open your own eyes
+1
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Yes there a lot a scientific fact in tho Quran. What were not know at that time. And just have been discovered recently and in no way could have been know 1400 years ago.
The finger print
That the world is round
That the sense of hearing in an unborn baby develops before it can see.
What the function of mountains really is
Where Iron comes from.
Look it up. If you have any doubt about what I say.
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I'm a theist that maintains Roman Catholicism as a foothold, but not in a doctrinaire fashion. Overall, I believe the search for firm foundations, philosophically or theologically, is misguided.
We should not be like Descartes, looking for a philosophical grounding as secure as Newton's gravity; to quote Mary Midgley, "What we need is not an ultimate floor at the bottom of the universe but simply a planet with a good strong pull that will keep us together and stop us falling off." Roman Catholicism serves as that figurative planet for me. I find persons like Nicholas of Cusa, Pseudo-Dionysius, and St. Catherine of Siena to be intellectual and spiritual powerhouses with much guidance to offer.
Ultimately, I'm generally an empiricist that considers "religious experience" evidentially acceptable.
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Why should a search for firm foundation be misguided?
Are we not all pledged with doubt, fear, sadness.
Would it not be wonderful I you could find some foundation with would remove doubt, fear and sadness?
Religious experience although accepted by you as empiric evidence. Would be consider subjective by most.
So there must be real undeniable prove that the holy books are not just fiction as some claim. But are in deed true revelations from God. Would you not agree?
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Why should a search for firm foundation be misguided?
Are we not all pledged with doubt, fear, sadness.
Would it not be wonderful I you could find some foundation with would remove doubt, fear and sadness?
Of course that would be wonderful. I'm not sure certainty is in the cards for us, though.
Cardinal Newman coined the term "illative sense," which I believe is what we can at most have; Andrew Greenwell summarized it thus: "The illative sense is what allows us to take our concrete human experiences--whether they be of nature's beauty, of the demands of conscience (the feeling of guilt, the pangs of remorse, the search for forgiveness), of the sense of the contingency of life, of the peaceful joy elicited by the shallow breathing of your sleeping child beside you in bed, of the honor given to a soldier who sacrificed his life for his fellows, of the haunting beauty of the second movement of Schubert's Piano Sonata in A major, of the pathos of G. M. Hopkins' poem 'Spring and Fall,' of indeed any created good or beautiful thing--and come to the conclusion that there must be a transcendent reality behind it all, ultimately, He whom we call or know as God."
Religious experience although accepted by you as empiric evidence. Would be consider subjective by most.
So there must be real undeniable prove that the holy books are not just fiction as some claim. But are in deed true revelations from God. Would you not agree?
If one wants to be epistemologically extreme, all empirical evidence can be dismissed as "subjective" in that manner.
Furthermore, I'm not sure there can be incontrovertible evidence that one's preferred holy book is true; I tend to view such texts as useful for the practice of lectio divina, but not as propositional knowledge.
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Agnostic also, more atheist than agnostic. I have christian friends and when I'm over there house they gang up on you trying to recruit you into their twisted cult, hate that shit.
All the religious cultists do this, and they feel so smug and self righteous with it that they fail to see their own hypocrisy.
'we are the chosen ones, you are not, but you can be if you join us'
religion is for the weak, may they revel in it
truth is for the rest of us, and it is abhored by the religious
if we did away with ALL religions and their fools we would be IMMEDIATELY in a better world...
history is written by the winner - and therefore not worthy of much consideration unless your trying to prove something that needs forceful 'prooving'
You do realise you're the only one in this thread who has came in with a self righteous "I KNOW I'M RIGHT YOU'RE ALL FOOLS" attitude? And you talk about hypocrisy. As I said early in the thread I've experienced hardnosed atheists shouting in my face for simply saying I believe in god, these traits aren't exclusive to the religious cultists as you call them.
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Yes there a lot a scientific fact in tho Quran. What were not know at that time. And just have been discovered recently and in no way could have been know 1400 years ago.
The finger print
That the world is round
That the sense of hearing in an unborn baby develops before it can see.
What the function of mountains really is
Where Iron comes from.
Look it up. If you have any doubt about what I say.
well Iron is naturally occurring, ya know its on the periodic table.. so i dont see where you are coming from there... Also The Greeks knew the Earth was round a good 2500 years ago... I also would like to know specific verses, because all you have are claims.. lastly, do you ever think that some of those could just be lucky hypotheses?
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First sorry I dont know how to do this section quote thing from a post. So I just copy past what you said.
Of course that would be wonderful. I'm not sure certainty is in the cards for us, though.
I am certain that such thing is possible.
If I may quote form the Quran.
Those that follow my guidance the will not grief nor fear. (this is a promise of God)
There is also a specific supplication when some one a sad. And when I read it miraculously the grief and sadness melts away. I dont fear death because as I believer. When I die my times has come and I happy to go on meet my Creator because I want to meet him.
Furthermore, I'm not sure there can be incontrovertible evidence that one's preferred holy book is true; I tend to view such texts as useful for the practice of lectio divina, but not as propositional knowledge
I believe in the Quran a true revelation from God. Because it contains undeniable prove that it could never have been writing be a human.
The Quran posses a challenge has been has been standing answered for 1400 year
In Chapter 2 Verse 23
And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah (chapter) the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.
Might I add that the shortest chapter has 3 verse each between 3 and 4 words.
But in the end its just a matter of faith. And a matter of wanting to see the signs of God. And I want to believe that there is a God that love me an cares for me and will reward me for my good deeds.
And I am happy to meet a follow believer.
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Yes there a lot a scientific fact in tho Quran. What were not know at that time. And just have been discovered recently and in no way could have been know 1400 years ago.
The finger print
That the world is round
That the sense of hearing in an unborn baby develops before it can see.
What the function of mountains really is
Where Iron comes from.
Look it up. If you have any doubt about what I say.
well Iron is naturally occurring, ya know its on the periodic table.. so i dont see where you are coming from there... Also The Greeks knew the Earth was round a good 2500 years ago... I also would like to know specific verses, because all you have are claims.. lastly, do you ever think that some of those could just be lucky hypotheses?
I you say that the Greek knew the world was round. I accepted that. Yet the Arabs were an mostly an illiterate people. The did not know that the world was round. Christians also believe for a very long that the world was flat resting an turtle flouting in the sea or what ever.
Al though iron is natural occurring element modern science has prove that I did not come from our solar system.
Because our sun lack the gravitational force and power to form this element. Any very big stars much larger then our sun can form iron. And when they go nova that iron is propelled in all direction.
That is was lucky hypotheses? Highly unlike because like I mentioned before the Arabs were illiterate and were not scientist or researchers. And believe that mountain were just big heaps of earth holding the sky up. There is no way the could have know that
mountain help to prevent the earth crust from shifting and creating earth quakes. That is a recent discovery.
Just like finger prints there is verse about that to. And its a relatively recent discovery that every person finger print is unique.
Here is that specif verse about iron in the Chapter called Iron.
And We also sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind… (Qur'an, 57:25)
I do not want to fill the entire post with the explains but if you are interested in this specif fact here a link
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_30.html
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Yes there a lot a scientific fact in tho Quran. What were not know at that time. And just have been discovered recently and in no way could have been know 1400 years ago.
The finger print
That the world is round
That the sense of hearing in an unborn baby develops before it can see.
What the function of mountains really is
Where Iron comes from.
Look it up. If you have any doubt about what I say.
well Iron is naturally occurring, ya know its on the periodic table.. so i dont see where you are coming from there... Also The Greeks knew the Earth was round a good 2500 years ago... I also would like to know specific verses, because all you have are claims.. lastly, do you ever think that some of those could just be lucky hypotheses?
I you say that the Greek knew the world was round. I accepted that. Yet the Arabs were an mostly an illiterate people. The did not know that the world was round. Christians also believe for a very long that the world was flat resting an turtle flouting in the sea or what ever.
Al though iron is natural occurring element modern science has prove that I did not come from our solar system.
Because our sun lack the gravitational force and power to form this element. Any very big stars much larger then our sun can form iron. And when they go nova that iron is propelled in all direction.
That is was lucky hypotheses? Highly unlike because like I mentioned before the Arabs were illiterate and were not scientist or researchers. And believe that mountain were just big heaps of earth holding the sky up. There is no way the could have know that
mountain help to prevent the earth crust from shifting and creating earth quakes. That is a recent discovery.
Just like finger prints there is verse about that to. And its a relatively recent discovery that every person finger print is unique.
Here is that specif verse about iron in the Chapter called Iron.
And We also sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind… (Qur'an, 57:25)
I do not want to fill the entire post with the explains but if you are interested in this specif fact here a link
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_30.html
Just because it wasn't scientifically known to the arabs doesnt mean that it was the act of god.. maybe someone became literate, read some greek, roman, and other shit, then decided to write down some of what they knew(EDIT:I am not saying that IS what happened, but I would wager that that is much more likely than 'god' writing a book to a people who couldn't read).. I mean, your rationale does not prove that the quran was the word of god... It just shows that arabs weren't the brightest people.... And how do you prove that iron couldn't be here on earth just because of the sun. I respect your opinion but I just feel your argument is flawed
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Look you want me to post the hollow scientific article on iron. You force my hand here you go
And We also sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind… (Qur'an, 57:25)
Iron ingot
The word "anzalna," translated as "sent down" and used for iron in the verse, could be thought of having a metaphorical meaning to explain that iron has been given to benefit people. But, when we take into consideration the literal meaning of the word, which is, "being physically sent down from the sky," as in the case of rain and Sun rays, we realize that this verse implies a very significant scientific miracle. Because, modern astronomical findings have disclosed that the iron found in our world has come from giant stars in outer space.38
Not only the iron on earth, but also the iron in the entire Solar System, comes from outer space, since the temperature in the Sun is inadequate for the formation of iron. The sun has a surface temperature of 6,000 degrees Celsius, and a core temperature of approximately 20 million degrees. Iron can only be produced in much larger stars than the Sun, where the temperature reaches a few hundred million degrees. When the amount of iron exceeds a certain level in a star, the star can no longer accommodate it, and it eventually explodes in what is called a "nova" or a "supernova." These explosions make it possible for iron to be given off into space.39
One scientific source provides the following information on this subject:
There is also evidence for older supernova events: Enhanced levels of iron-60 in deep-sea sediments have been interpreted as indications that a supernova explosion occurred within 90 light-years of the sun about 5 million years ago. Iron-60 is a radioactive isotope of iron, formed in supernova explosions, which decays with a half life of 1.5 million years. An enhanced presence of this isotope in a geologic layer indicates the recent nucleosynthesis of elements nearby in space and their subsequent transport to the earth (perhaps as part of dust grains).40
Surat al-Hadid is the 57th in the Qur’an. The numerical value of the word “al-Hadid” in Arabic is 57. The numerical value of “hadid” on its own is 26. As can be seen from the periodic table to the side, 26 is the number of the iron atom. With the verse revealed in Surat al-Hadid Almighty Allah indicates how iron formed, and with the mathematical code contained in the verse He reveals to us a scientific miracle.
All this shows that iron did not form on the Earth, but was carried from Supernovas, and was "sent down," as stated in the verse. It is clear that this fact could not have been known in the 7th century, when the Qur'an was revealed. Nevertheless, this fact is related in the Qur'an, the Word of Allah, Who encompasses all things in His infinite knowledge.
Astronomy has also revealed that other elements also formed outside the Earth. In the expression "We also sent down iron" in the verse, the word "also" may well be referring to that idea. However, the fact that the verse specifically mentions iron is quite astounding, considering that these discoveries were made at the end of the 20th century. In his book Nature's Destiny, the well-known microbiologist Michael Denton emphasizes the importance of iron:
Of all the metals there is none more essential to life than iron. It is the accumulation of iron in the center of a star which triggers a supernova explosion and the subsequent scattering of the vital atoms of life throughout the cosmos. It was the drawing by gravity of iron atoms to the center of the primeval earth that generated the heat which caused the initial chemical differentiation of the earth, the outgassing of the early atmosphere, and ultimately the formation of the hydrosphere. It is molten iron in the center of the earth which, acting like a gigantic dynamo, generates the earth's magnetic field, which in turn creates the Van Allen radiation belts that shield the earth's surface from destructive high-energy-penetrating cosmic radiation and preserve the crucial ozone layer from cosmic ray destruction…
Without the iron atom, there would be no carbon-based life in the cosmos; no supernovae, no heating of the primitive earth, no atmosphere or hydrosphere. There would be no protective magnetic field, no Van Allen radiation belts, no ozone layer, no metal to make hemoglobin [in human blood], no metal to tame the reactivity of oxygen, and no oxidative metabolism.
The intriguing and intimate relationship between life and iron, between the red color of blood and the dying of some distant star, not only indicates the relevance of metals to biology but also the biocentricity of the cosmos…41
This account clearly indicates the importance of the iron atom. The fact that particular attention is drawn to iron in the Qur'an also emphasises the importance of the element. In addition, there is another hidden truth in the Qur'an which draws attention to the importance of iron: Surat al-Hadid 25, which refers to iron, contains two rather interesting mathematical codes.
"Al- Hadid" is the 57th sura in the Qur'an. The abjad of the word "Al-Hadid" in Arabic, when the numerological values of its letters are added up, is also 57. (For abjad calculations see the section on Numerological Calculations (Abjad) in the Qur'an.)
The numerological value of the word "hadid" alone is 26. And 26 is the atomic number of iron.
Moreover, iron oxide particles were used in a cancer treatment in recent months and positive developments were observed. A team led by Dr. Andreas Jordan, at the world famous Charité Hospital in Germany, succeeded in destroying cancer cells with this new technique developed for the treatment of cancer-magnetic fluid hyperthermia (high temperature magnetic liquid). As a result of this technique, first performed on the 26-year-old Nikolaus H., no new cancer cells were observed in the patient in the following three months.
This method of treatment can be summarised as follows:
1. A liquid containing iron oxide particles is injected into the tumour by means of a special syringe. These particles spread throughout the tumour cells. This liquid consists of thousands of millions of particles, 1,000 times smaller than the red blood corpuscles, of iron oxide in 1 cm3 that can easily flow through all blood vessels.42
2. The patient is then placed in a machine with a powerful magnetic field.
3. This magnetic field, applied externally, begins to set the iron particles in the tumour in motion. During this time the temperature in the tumour containing the iron oxide particles rises by up to 45 degrees.
In a few minutes the cancer cells, unable to protect themselves from the heat, are either weakened or destroyed. The tumour may then be completely eradicated with subsequent chemotherapy.43
In this treatment it is only the cancer cells that are affected by the magnetic field, since only they contain the iron oxide particles. The spread of this technique is a major development in the treatment of this potentially lethal disease. In the treatment of such a widespread disease as cancer, the use of the expression "iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind" (Qur'an, 57:25) in the Qur'an is particularly noteworthy. Indeed, in that verse, the Qur'an may be indicating the benefits of iron for human health. (Allah knows best.)
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Look you want me to post the hollow scientific article on iron. You force my hand here you go
And We also sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind… (Qur'an, 57:25)
Iron ingot
The word "anzalna," translated as "sent down" and used for iron in the verse, could be thought of having a metaphorical meaning to explain that iron has been given to benefit people. But, when we take into consideration the literal meaning of the word, which is, "being physically sent down from the sky," as in the case of rain and Sun rays, we realize that this verse implies a very significant scientific miracle. Because, modern astronomical findings have disclosed that the iron found in our world has come from giant stars in outer space.38
Not only the iron on earth, but also the iron in the entire Solar System, comes from outer space, since the temperature in the Sun is inadequate for the formation of iron. The sun has a surface temperature of 6,000 degrees Celsius, and a core temperature of approximately 20 million degrees. Iron can only be produced in much larger stars than the Sun, where the temperature reaches a few hundred million degrees. When the amount of iron exceeds a certain level in a star, the star can no longer accommodate it, and it eventually explodes in what is called a "nova" or a "supernova." These explosions make it possible for iron to be given off into space.39
One scientific source provides the following information on this subject:
There is also evidence for older supernova events: Enhanced levels of iron-60 in deep-sea sediments have been interpreted as indications that a supernova explosion occurred within 90 light-years of the sun about 5 million years ago. Iron-60 is a radioactive isotope of iron, formed in supernova explosions, which decays with a half life of 1.5 million years. An enhanced presence of this isotope in a geologic layer indicates the recent nucleosynthesis of elements nearby in space and their subsequent transport to the earth (perhaps as part of dust grains).40
Surat al-Hadid is the 57th in the Qur’an. The numerical value of the word “al-Hadid” in Arabic is 57. The numerical value of “hadid” on its own is 26. As can be seen from the periodic table to the side, 26 is the number of the iron atom. With the verse revealed in Surat al-Hadid Almighty Allah indicates how iron formed, and with the mathematical code contained in the verse He reveals to us a scientific miracle.
All this shows that iron did not form on the Earth, but was carried from Supernovas, and was "sent down," as stated in the verse. It is clear that this fact could not have been known in the 7th century, when the Qur'an was revealed. Nevertheless, this fact is related in the Qur'an, the Word of Allah, Who encompasses all things in His infinite knowledge.
Astronomy has also revealed that other elements also formed outside the Earth. In the expression "We also sent down iron" in the verse, the word "also" may well be referring to that idea. However, the fact that the verse specifically mentions iron is quite astounding, considering that these discoveries were made at the end of the 20th century. In his book Nature's Destiny, the well-known microbiologist Michael Denton emphasizes the importance of iron:
Of all the metals there is none more essential to life than iron. It is the accumulation of iron in the center of a star which triggers a supernova explosion and the subsequent scattering of the vital atoms of life throughout the cosmos. It was the drawing by gravity of iron atoms to the center of the primeval earth that generated the heat which caused the initial chemical differentiation of the earth, the outgassing of the early atmosphere, and ultimately the formation of the hydrosphere. It is molten iron in the center of the earth which, acting like a gigantic dynamo, generates the earth's magnetic field, which in turn creates the Van Allen radiation belts that shield the earth's surface from destructive high-energy-penetrating cosmic radiation and preserve the crucial ozone layer from cosmic ray destruction…
Without the iron atom, there would be no carbon-based life in the cosmos; no supernovae, no heating of the primitive earth, no atmosphere or hydrosphere. There would be no protective magnetic field, no Van Allen radiation belts, no ozone layer, no metal to make hemoglobin [in human blood], no metal to tame the reactivity of oxygen, and no oxidative metabolism.
The intriguing and intimate relationship between life and iron, between the red color of blood and the dying of some distant star, not only indicates the relevance of metals to biology but also the biocentricity of the cosmos…41
This account clearly indicates the importance of the iron atom. The fact that particular attention is drawn to iron in the Qur'an also emphasises the importance of the element. In addition, there is another hidden truth in the Qur'an which draws attention to the importance of iron: Surat al-Hadid 25, which refers to iron, contains two rather interesting mathematical codes.
"Al- Hadid" is the 57th sura in the Qur'an. The abjad of the word "Al-Hadid" in Arabic, when the numerological values of its letters are added up, is also 57. (For abjad calculations see the section on Numerological Calculations (Abjad) in the Qur'an.)
The numerological value of the word "hadid" alone is 26. And 26 is the atomic number of iron.
Moreover, iron oxide particles were used in a cancer treatment in recent months and positive developments were observed. A team led by Dr. Andreas Jordan, at the world famous Charité Hospital in Germany, succeeded in destroying cancer cells with this new technique developed for the treatment of cancer-magnetic fluid hyperthermia (high temperature magnetic liquid). As a result of this technique, first performed on the 26-year-old Nikolaus H., no new cancer cells were observed in the patient in the following three months.
This method of treatment can be summarised as follows:
1. A liquid containing iron oxide particles is injected into the tumour by means of a special syringe. These particles spread throughout the tumour cells. This liquid consists of thousands of millions of particles, 1,000 times smaller than the red blood corpuscles, of iron oxide in 1 cm3 that can easily flow through all blood vessels.42
2. The patient is then placed in a machine with a powerful magnetic field.
3. This magnetic field, applied externally, begins to set the iron particles in the tumour in motion. During this time the temperature in the tumour containing the iron oxide particles rises by up to 45 degrees.
In a few minutes the cancer cells, unable to protect themselves from the heat, are either weakened or destroyed. The tumour may then be completely eradicated with subsequent chemotherapy.43
In this treatment it is only the cancer cells that are affected by the magnetic field, since only they contain the iron oxide particles. The spread of this technique is a major development in the treatment of this potentially lethal disease. In the treatment of such a widespread disease as cancer, the use of the expression "iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind" (Qur'an, 57:25) in the Qur'an is particularly noteworthy. Indeed, in that verse, the Qur'an may be indicating the benefits of iron for human health. (Allah knows best.)
okay, I do see your point, however it still does NOT prove that god sent iron to earth.. Iron comes from space and actually almost every element came from supernovas/old stars.. Again, Im just playing devils advocate, just because something came from space does not mean it was god who sent it.
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Well in a book there is statement that says. We sent down Iron.
Before it was know that iron came form space. How do you explain that.
But is good that you question every thing. Because like I said before Islam is religion/ideology for reason. Its not blind faith. But a process of seeing the evidence and becoming convinced no compulsion needed. So point for you.
BTW its just on of the scientific prove that the Quran is form God.
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Well in a book there is statement that says. We sent down Iron.
Before it was know that iron came form space. How do you explain that.
But is good that you question every thing. Because like I said before Islam is religion/ideology for reason. Its not blind faith. But a process of seeing the evidence and becoming convinced no compulsion needed. So point for you.
BTW its just on of the scientific prove that the Quran is form God.
How do you know that they didn't know that about elements? Were you living then? There was some VERY VERY smart people in all times, greece, the renaissance, enlightenment, etc. Did you know astronomers predicted Neptune existed before it was scientifically proven/seen to exist.. does that make those astronomers words the word of god?
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Well do we have evidence that they did know about the element of iron. That iron came from space is a recent discovery.
But certain fact that have been confirmed by astronomers. Where already mentioned in the Quran.
And well you might accept this argument or not.
And to be a Prophet you have to have some prove that you are indeed a Prophet for God. You have to have miracles. And because the Prophet Muhammed is the seal of the Prophet hood. He would have to have a miracle that could send the test of time. Right? Well the Quran is examined with an open mind that prove can be found.
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Well do we have evidence that they did know about the element of iron. That iron came from space is a recent discovery.
But certain fact that have been confirmed by astronomers. Where already mentioned in the Quran.
And well you might accept this argument or not.
And to be a Prophet you have to have some prove that you are indeed a Prophet for God. You have to have miracles. And because the Prophet Muhammed is the seal of the Prophet hood. He would have to have a miracle that could send the test of time. Right? Well the Quran is examined with an open mind that prove can be found.
yes we have the fact that iron came from space, but all other elements came from space.. why would 'god' just mention iron and not oxygen, helium etc.
also, since you claim that the quran is 100% scientifically accurate then why does it say that "And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)" [Quran, 71:19], that the sun sets in a pool of water, among other things...
Just because it was right about some things does not mean that it is right about everything, and just because it was right about something that many people did not know does not mean its divine.
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That is true but that part is culture and part Islamic Law. And there are reason for why. But you judge other by your standards. And Saudi is not the best example. There is not a single Muslim country that rules only by the Quran.
Arabs have always had a tendency to oppress women. This a cultural thing. And there is a difference culture and is Islam.
And I can back up the validity of the Quran from outside the Quran. Read above about the a man who could not read or write and came with verse that blow everybody away. And the challenge is still open. Nobody could come with some thing equal to the Quran even a single chapter.
I dont know the man who came up with the miraclous verse. How do i know it is not just a story, a tall tale.
Have you read about joeseph smith and the miraculous golden tablets he allegedly found in the book of mormon? According to the mormons, the tablets had the true word of god on them. How can i know which story to believe if there is no way to scientifically verify who is right and who is wrong?
This is the verse I promised you heavysmoker. Forgive for taking so long.
Chapther 2 verse 23
And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah (chapter) the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.
This is a challenge that has been standing for 1400 years. And may I remind you that the shortest chapter is only 3 verse with each 3 and the last one 4 words.
I don't understand what this proves. Eloquent writing in the quran is not proof that the quran is the word of the creator. Also you said you could back up the vallidity of the quran from outside the quran. This verse and the "challenge" to replicate it is in the quran, right.
Also, i am a little confused about islam and drugs. I understand that all intoxicants are off limits for muslims. Its a personal question, but was wondering if you do drugs and what brought you to the silk road? Nearly everyone that is on this forum buys and sells and takes "intoxicants" that are prohibited by your religion. Are we "sinning" against allah? Will he punish us?
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First would like to points out that the Quran is not a book of science it is a book of signs.
So it maybe that iron is so important that there only need to mention iron just to make a point.
The earth like a carpet well does not the crust of the earth cover the planet like a carpet does. Its say like a carpet not that it is a carpet. And look at the grass fields the do resemble a carpet does it not. It is an analogy.
Well about the sun setting in the water I know about this verse but I dont know it explanation.
A book talking an getting one thing right maybe chance? Two maybe by accident. But there are more then that.
And if it mentions more and more knowledge that was not know an only has been discovered recently.
Then I makes you wonder where does it come from.
And on a side note a prove that the Quran is divine is that it is the highest form of Arabic literature. All Arabic grammar is based on it. And it is one of a kind. Like I mentioned before the Quran posses a challenge to produce a chapter like it. And this the challenge is still standing.
If you want to read all the science in the mentioned in the Quran browse this website. There is a hollow list of all the scientific fact in the Quran.
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html
You can also watch the lecture on Quran and Modern Science. A lecture by a Doctor and Islamic scholar Zakir Naik.
Because it would be to much to discuss every single scientific fact mentioned.
Would be easier for both of us
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I am doing an psychological experiment on the effect of curtain drugs. And form my experience not all drugs are equally intoxication some heighten the sense like for example coffee is a drugs. And some drugs can be used therapeutic. But in with out a doubt alcohol is forbidden about other I am personally not so certain that why I am doing my research.
And even so doing drugs would not be the biggest sin it would the denial of the existent of God and his messengers.
And God can forgive any sin expect polytheism and atheism. Some Sufi sects have used drugs to gain greater in sight in to life and get closer to God.
Also I here because there a movement that against the NWO and globalization and since there is a tread on religion, ideology and philosophy I just want to set staight some misunderstandings about Islam.
And about eloquence in the Quran. Well if anyone writes something an other will be able to write something similar right? Well after 1400 nobody has been ably to write even a single chapter like the Quran.
Should you not ask your self the question.
Well that verse is fallowed by the next that says.
And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.
But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.
Like the saying goes dont kill the messenger. The Quran has ordered the Muslims to warn the people.
If there is any debate about religion, ideology and philosophy I will try to make the message clear.
Hopes that clears some thing up.
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And on a side note a prove that the Quran is divine is that it is the highest form of Arabic literature. All Arabic grammar is based on it. And it is one of a kind. Like I mentioned before the Quran posses a challenge to produce a chapter like it. And this the challenge is still standing.
It doesnt prove anything. The challenge is written in the quran. You have to understand the concept of circular logic, it is a logical fallacy. You can not prove the quran is the word of god by using verses in the quran.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
And I can back up the validity of the Quran from outside the Quran. Read above about the a man who could not read or write and came with verse that blow everybody away. And the challenge is still open. Nobody could come with some thing equal to the Quran even a single chapter.
Still wating on proof that the quran is the word of god based on something other than verses from the quran it self.
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oxygen is infinitely more important than iron.. why not mention that if it were showing that something is so important that came from space... and like heavysmoker said, you are just using many logical fallacies to try and prove your point.. then again, i guess that is the only way to 'prove' miracles/religion.
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I am doing an psychological experiment on the effect of curtain drugs. And form my experience not all drugs are equally intoxication some heighten the sense like for example coffee is a drugs. And some drugs can be used therapeutic. But in with out a doubt alcohol is forbidden about other I am personally not so certain that why I am doing my research.
And even so doing drugs would not be the biggest sin it would the denial of the existent of God and his messengers.
And God can forgive any sin expect polytheism and atheism. Some Sufi sects have used drugs to gain greater in sight in to life and get closer to God.
Also I here because there a movement that against the NWO and globalization and since there is a tread on religion, ideology and philosophy I just want to set staight some misunderstandings about Islam.
Caffeine is an intoxicant. Have you ever drank a few redbulls or taken caffeine pills? Intoxicants are anything that alters your perception of reality, all recreational drugs are intoxicants by definition. Intoxicants can be stimulants, or downers, or hallucinogens ect. They are all still intoxicants.
If allah had a list of acceptable drugs why wouldn't he have made it available to us in the quran?
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Well I personally I have no more prove for you.
The rational argument that every thing created needs a creator. Cannot convince you prove from the Quran and that nobody has been able to produce even a single chapter like it cannot convince you then I am out. But will still stick around. Hahaha :)
I believe without a doubt with certain knowledge that the Quran is the word of God.
And wish you all the best
And true succes after death.
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Well the word used in the Quran is Khamr (the arabs used the drink alcohol) that comes from the root of khamara meaning the cover up.
Like any other word for the headscarf is khimar. Yes. Well everything that could the judgment would be prohibited.
Well maybe I am a sinner and dont know what I am doing. Muslims say if the dont know Allah know best. So that what I says.
And deeds are judged on the intention and my intention is to do research on the various effect of certain drugs.
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Well I personally I have no more prove for you.
The rational argument that every thing created needs a creator. Cannot convince you prove from the Quran and that nobody has been able to produce even a single chapter like it cannot convince you then I am out. But will still stick around. Hahaha :)
I believe without a doubt with certain knowledge that the Quran is the word of God.
And wish you all the best
And true succes after death.
who created the creator then?
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i am not an atheist, and yet i keep being labeled by various people.
this guy has lied about statements i have made in a number of threads.
i took it upon myself to defend myself due to this, the relatively weak shitstorm that has followed is all stemming from this.
he has PM'd me an apology and i asked for the same in public, as that is where he lied about me and my verifiable words.
telling anyone they need youtube to teach them the wonders of ANY religion is pathetic, just as much as it is to say 'we have evidence, look at a holy book'....
i am willing to learn from my brothers and sisters but i wont be accused of potentially lethal actions/statemets without defending myself.
as i have also stated, if this was 'IRL' i could weLl have been 'justifiably' murdered by some of these self-proclaimed(lame) 'holy men' by now!!
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I apology to WatLanBoon
By making false accusations about him. I did refer to a youtube video because my knowledge about the specifics are limited and anybody interested about then could for the sake pure interest or argument and to better understand my point of view check it out. For some it is evidence and for some it is not.
I would never murder any body because they chose not to share my point of view or be convinced by the arguments I made. Nor would I support such a thing ever. That would be a false assumption on your part WatLanBoon. I would only fight those that fight me and if they are inclined to peace then I would incline to peace.
Because that is also a teaching form my Book.
Based on the fact that there is no compulsion in religion. No body can force or should force anybody else to believe what they believe.
Dear WatLanBoon if you would be my neighbor I would treat you with the at most respect and help you in any way I could no matter what you believe. And if any of the others would try to harm you I would protect you freedom of choice. Because that is also part of my religions conviction.
We might disagree but I would not be a reason for murder.
So again please accept my sincere apology. And lets put our petty depute behind us.
Kind regards wish you the best.
Jundulillahi
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who created the creator then?
Could the world have been otherwise? That is, could you have eaten Trix cereal this morning even though you didn't? To have done so seems logically consistent with all known facts of the universe. It was possible, but it did not happen.
That means we live in a world that is actual, but also contingent. It could have been otherwise.
What we have, then, is a series of contingent facts. But where does the buck stop? Why is there something rather than nothing? Necessity. Philosophers and theologians point this sort of "cosmological argument" to halt the infinite regress you presented.
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Well about your first:
Statement :
That is, could you have eaten Trix cereal this morning even though you didn't?
Well if you eat cereal would you thing you didn't? Well. Either you eat the cereal and just forget about it.
But still wouldn't make it so that you did not eat the cereal. Or you should a visit to a psychiatrists no offense intended.
And why is there something rather then nothing.
Well because nothing doesn't really exist. Or does it.
If your post was not meant for me the my apologies.
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Even before the enlightenment in Europe began Islamic civilization was flourishing. And was in fact sparked by the beginning of the Islamic golden Age. Go check your history.
And the greatest philosophers where Greeks and men like the Chinese Confucius.
There were some vital European philosophers during the Enlightenment/ Age of Reason whose works were vital in creating the foundations of our current society, and some of the ideologies that emerged have based some of the laws we still follow today in the West.
Locke (British) was probably one of the most influential thinkers of this time, coined as the Father of Liberalism, spread really important ideas on consciousness and perception - he saw humans as having no intrinsic knowledge, but that this is rather determined by our experiences and senses. He rejected the idea of paper money, saying that only gold and silver should be traded internationally since paper money only has value for the government who issues it.
Rousseau (French) is best known for having sparked the French Revolution. He believed all men were created as essentially good, and that it was the shackles of society (poverty, inequality, oppression) that made man bad. His work the Social Contract was a huge influence in political philosophy and still is taught in universities. He saw the government as an entity that was made of puppeteers whose roles were to influence and enforce the general will. Whereas, it is the people who were truly sovereign/ had the power to create law, and they, not the government, should be in charge of making decisions by democratic assemblies. "Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains. Those who think themselves as the masters of the others are indeed greater slaves than they".
Issaac Newton (British) was writing during the Enlightenment as well, and he gave us incredibly important information of physics, mathematics and science, and was probably the most influential scientist of his time for having discovered ways to explain gravity and the laws of motion.
Voltaire (French) was a huge advocate against the Catholic church, and instead praised concepts of practicing freedom in various ways such as in religion, expression and art, and strongly thought that the church has no place in the affairs of the state. I just now learned that he did evolve some concepts from Islamic philosophies, but saw the teachings of Muhammad as coming from a "false prophet" - Voltaire did not believe any religious texts were necessary in order to believe in God, he was more concerned with what is universal.
Didderot (French) was the editor and creator of l'Encyclopedie, the first major general/ technical encyclopedia of the times. It was a book that published the works of the major thinkers of the Enlightenment, on science, philosophy, mechanics, art and labour. His goal was to assemble in a concise manner all the thoughts of the age that he felt were going to have major influences for the future.
So, I agree with you that the Greeks and Confucius philosophers were extremely important in shaping ideas of their time and place. But I'm glad that they clearly weren't the only ones :) And this is leaving out other important key thinkers that came a little bit later, such as Adam Smith and Emmanuel Kant.
I am sure Islam influenced Europe, especially because at a time of increased global trade of goods and information, countries influencing each other is inevitable. However, it is not case to invalidate the progress made during the European Enlightenment.
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You make valid point I must agree on some points.
But you must know that the Islamic golden age started in mid 8th century and lasted till
1258.
And the enlightenment was between 1650 till 1778.
And in the time of the Islamic Golden Age. The Islamic civilization was far ahead of the European. While the Europeans were still living in the dark ages. The Islamic civilization was
thriving. The Muslim refined the process of making paper and saved much of the Greek works of philosophy which in turn must have in inspired a lot of the modern European thinkers.
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You make valid point I must agree on some points.
But you must know that the Islamic golden age started in mid 8th century and lasted till
1258.
And the enlightenment was between 1650 till 1778.
And in the time of the Islamic Golden Age. The Islamic civilization was far ahead of the European. While the Europeans were still living in the dark ages. The Islamic civilization was
thriving. The Muslim refined the process of making paper and saved much of the Greek works of philosophy which in turn must have in inspired a lot of the modern European thinkers.
See I somewhat agree with this but I also think you cannot just attribute this Golden age to the progression of the Islamic civilization.
I think that the West has forgotten a big part of its history, a part of history to which it owes a huge debt. That of the Byzantine Empire. Now not only the west but also the Islamic civilization benefited from this progressive culture. Indeed they were enemies for most of their co-existence. However, while being ideologically opposed they still shared art, science and culture. Indeed, toward the demise of the Byzantine empire and the takeover of Islam of Constantinople, one would find the intermingling of cultures enormous.
So this progression and golden age you solely attribute to Islam, I think owes some debt to Byzantium. A quick example is the works of Greek philosophers and refined uses of paper. Byzantium was ahead of Islam here I believe.
Indeed, I think the Western world owes the majority of its progression to Byzantium. However, this empire has been long forgotten. And now no one understands the immense insight this culture offered to humanity.
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In the time that the Islamic Empire spanned from Spain to Iran. The Byzantium Empire was a shadow of its former self. So the resources of the Islamic Empire where far superior to that of the Byzantium Empire to be used for scientific research. And of course the were intermingling.
And I do not say that the Islam solely was responsible for the progress made by the west. But where a big part of it.
In the ended may main point acutely is and in part always has been. That Islam never suppressed science in the way the Christians did. On the contrary science was promoted and supported.
And on paper. The Greek used to write on papyrus just like the Egyptian did.
Paper as we know it today was in fact an Chinese invention. Invented in something like 1000 BC.
And the Muslims in the 8th century refined the process and turned it from an art in to a real industry. Making it possible to mass product is as a product. This is all on wiki if you trust the that source.
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Well if you are making such broad sweeping statements, then The byzantine empire was actually Roman and spanned the majority of the known world at the time.
Also, just curious. I read somewhere in here about Islam respecting women. However I read in another thread this, posted by you.
<quote>
John Rambo. I think Islam is really a thing for you. Because in Islamic law a woman has to obey her husband and has to ask his permission to leave to house. And if she wants to divorce from her husband she has to give back every thing the husband gave her. And in the Quran it is said that the male is a step above the female. Plus you are free to marry up to four.
</quote>
Seems like you are trolling a bit.
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I am not trolling at all. At least if maybe I am but at least not on purpose. If you would define trolling for me
I will God willing mead my ways. Because trolling sound bad
Islam does respect women. But not in a why western civilization respects women.
the is a verse saying. Male or Female both will have equal reward for there good deeds.
Men and women are mentally and physically different. And based on that difference to Islamic Law is based.
The Prophet said. The best amongst you are those that are the most kind to there wives.
In an other quote. Paradise lays under the feet of the mother.
A lot of the best Islamic scholars were women and were held in high regard.
In that quote I forget to mention. That the women doesn't have to work and the husband is required provide for this family. And can never force this wife/wives to work.
If the women chose to divorce form her husband with out a valid reason then she has to return every thing to husband gave her. But if the woman divorce the husband because he abuse her then she does not have to return what the husband gave her.
If the husband divorce for the woman then the woman keeps the dowry and everything the husband gave her.
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A troll is someone who purposely creates conflict and disruption on an online forum.
In this situation it is you saying one thing in one thread and contradicting it in another to support/dis-support the purpose of that thread.
So I understand that Islamic values are different and the person is valued differently. And I understand that biologically women bare children and men do not. However, saying that a women is subservient to the male of a household automatically puts the women lower than the male.
Yes, the women may be queen of her household and the male works to provide for that. That is a balance is relationships that some people adhere to, however, if the man hold the power then how can you say that they are equal. If the female has to ask permission to do things how is this equal?
I believe equality is found through personal relationship. It is something that must grow, and if you have laws dictating what men and women can/cannot do then I believe this growth is stunted. How can you be equal is your law governs the female do one thing and the male the other. Surely equality lies in what works for each relationship.
Examples:
1. The male works and earns lots of money, and the female wants to have a family and is prepared to bare children for this man. From this starting point there is an equality in the relationship and from here the roles of the household will grow.
Now swap the roles.
2. The female works and earns lots of money and is also willing to have a family. the male has a job but earns less. So the male becomes the carer of the household and the female becomes the provider. In this there is also an equality that now has a chance to grow. And the male and female will work together to have a equal relationship for they love each other.
So wherein here lies the constant? Is it law that dictates what each gender should do? Is it what society tells you to do and so that makes an equal relationship? Or is it something bigger than all these things?
Think, maybe is LOVE exists between the two parties, that love will grow and find its equality, and thus happiness.
So I would still say that Islam, in it laws, places the women subservient to the male. And does not let these things grow naturally.
That being said, Western culture also does this.
So ultimately it is no a failure of Islam, but a failure of societies trying to regulate the roles of personal relationships. Which is an impossible thing.
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The world began when I was born.
When I die, the world will end.
I am the creator and destroyer of worlds.
Also, I am the son of God.
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Thank you for explaining to me what a troll is. And I am not a troll nor do I wish to be. I would go against my
principles. I done not like creating conflict but I like resolving conflict. I was just that I did not explain my self clearly enough.
Well actually the verse I was mentioned is referring to the reward men and women will get in the after live.
But in this world at least in an Islamic society. The man has his role and the woman has here role.
And that to men and women are different would grow in there own roles as best they can.
It just that from the Islamic point of view the man has the responsibility of the family and will be asked about how well he preformed in this task on the Day of Judgement. And because Muslim believe that the Islamic law is divine they try to life by that law. Because they believe in the all Wise creator.
Forgive that I cannot go deeper in to the examples you provided. Here in Europe is almost 5 o'clock in the morning and again I have not slept all night.
That in some Arabic not all countries women are oppressed has culture reasons. Arabs have always had a tendency to oppress women. And what happened in Afghanistan during the rule of the Taliban was wrong.
There intention were good I believe. But the wanted change to fast and instead educating the people with patience and in the best of ways. They forced the change upon them and was wrong.
I hope that when the grip of the NWO and the globalist agenda for the world is broken and every country / society can chose there own way of life then time will show who is most right. Would you not agree?
And no matter how just we think our laws or because we human are not perfect we will make mistakes.
I wish you the best
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Even worse than a troll is some cunt that wants to talk about what a troll is, or how much of a troll someone is or is not.... That's called being a goat fucker. Are you a goat fucker?
You got reverse-trolled.
Oh wait... I'm a troll, too. Well, since I am already, here it goes.
Muslims are.... No, I'm kidding. I do wanna have gay sex with a Muslim, but I have nothing against them.
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The world began when I was born.
When I die, the world will end.
I am the creator and destroyer of worlds.
Also, I am the son of God.
And how far will this mindset get you in life? At least I can have an intelligent banter with jundullahi. Even if it does go nowhere, it is much more entertaining and insightful to psychology than your shallow comments.
People like you are nothing. And you will remain nothing. Welcome to the mindless mob of society buddy. You are right there.
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The world began when I was born.
When I die, the world will end.
I am the creator and destroyer of worlds.
Also, I am the son of God.
And how far will this mindset get you in life? At least I can have an intelligent banter with jundullahi. Even if it does go nowhere, it is much more entertaining and insightful to psychology than your shallow comments.
People like you are nothing. And you will remain nothing. Welcome to the mindless mob of society buddy. You are right there.
Shallow comments?
I don't take the beginning of conscious life to be shallow.
Oh yeah, you just got trolled you fucking trolling phisherman.
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DenoyerGeppert
I would disagree with you do take it the wrong way. It may not get you any where. But I hope that posting some information about my point of view I will get a reward for my God. And I consider it time well spend.
And I hope that you well get something beneficial for the psychological insights.
And some one who takes him self as a god, I would never want to be watcher over him.
PS
By god I always means object of worships
Wish you all the best
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this is why i havent yet ignored his comments.
he is clearly intelligent enough to hold a conversation but his sources of information are distorted and thus he spouts garbage and contradictions almost consistently.
i am always willing to listen but sometimes even unintentional trolling leads one to frustration.
especially when there are blatent lies & cheap word tricks used to vilify my very valid points.
i appreciate the apology and hope that it was intended with more sincerity than the previous
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My apologize was sincere. I hope you accepted it.
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Skepticism is my nature,
Freethought is my methodology,
Agnosticism is my conclusion,
Atheism is my opinion and
Humanism is my motivation.
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Don't blame God just because religions are so fucked up. They do not represent true knowledge of God. Religions did not invent the idea of God, but rather, they misinform the masses about God in order to control them, preventing them from realising the truth. God is our true identity. We are all one. Everyone and everything in the universe is part of the same interconnected living being, which is 'God'. Religious leaders are actually the ones who do not understand this. They only understand that we are separate individuals, who can only compete for status, wealth and success. They actually believe most of the shit they preach to others, but really are motivated by their subconscious lust for control and power, which is born of fear and ignorance.
I would say this is generally true of any organised religion, although I am most familiar with Christianity. Christians were originally a subversive oppressed group, in the days of the Roman empire, whose empowering philosophy had roots in the ancient Greek gnostic mystical tradition. Believing that we are actually manifestations of God, ie. the infinite and eternal living universe, not just these temporary physical incarnations that we appear to be, means that we truly live forever and should have no fear of death. The figure of Jesus Christ was meant to illustrate the message that man and God are one. This understanding was dangerous to the Roman empire, who used fear of death for control of the masses. The Romans made a smart move and converted to Christianity, becoming it's authority and perverting it's message, telling people that God was separate from man and eternal life was only gained through obeying the church. The official biblical canon of state-approved propaganda was used to spread fear whilst other writings of the true meaning of the Jesus story were condemned as heresy. The story of Jesus carries the same message, hidden behind every other religion,- Treat others, not just as if they were you, but as they are you, because we are all of God and never die.
Although the name has been sullied, God is all of ours, the planet and the universe's true nature, which has been hidden from us. This understanding promotes love, peace and prosperity and ends suffering. That's what I believe.
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Treat others, not just as if they were you, but as they are you, because we are all of God and never die.
[citation needed]
If there's one thing we can be reasonably assured of, it's death.
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If there's one thing we can be reasonably assured of, it's death.
Depends on what you think 'we' are. If you believe that we are the infinite universe, then we don't die. It's not just wishful thinking either. Our current physical form as individual, separate human beings is just an illusory perception and not our true nature, or ultimate reality. What we are is conscious energy, transformed into matter, manifesting in never ending, changing temporary physical forms. Sorry, but I'm gonna live forever.
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Wow ... after reading this whole thread I (believe) I must comment.
motek was 'raised' as a catholic, went to a catholic school, church, the whole catastrophe!
These days, many years later, motek's "belief system" is based upon Buddhist philosophy ...
motek 'believes' in 'higher powers' BUT doesn't believe in the type of God espoused by most Religions
Buddhism IS NOT a religion .... it Has No 'rules' ...
ALL "organized Religions" have Rules!
As far as I know, ONLY Janianism seems to have rules that say Do NO injury to ANY thing, EVER!
Buddhism "suggests" that you question EVERYTHING!
As the saying goes "If you meet the Buddha on the road, Kill him!" ...why?
Becoz you cannot meet "the Buddha" and anyone proposing to be The Buddha, is by their action/behaviour, Not A 'buddha'
A 'buddha' IS an 'enlightened being' ...
What IS 'enlightenment'?
Being able to transcend this 'reality of cause and effect' which ALL humans endure ... breaking the 'cycle' of birth=> suffering and death, repeated.ad infinitum until we "get it"
Buddhism says this can only be achieved through 'non attatchment' to the physical aspects of life .... Love IS the highest expression of energy, and through love and detachment that we humans can.
Interestingly enough, in the past 50 odd years, there have been more "scientifically verified" experiments done on buddhist monks/practitioners than ANY other spiritual practitioners .... They have put several monks in fMRI's ,, watched their brain activity in real time, and asked them to meditate on "love" ...
the areas of their brains which 'lit up' were the same as the 'controls',, just much larger and longer lasting.
Their was a buddhist monk (whose name escapes me as I write this) that had achieved this 'state of mind/being',
He died in France about 20 years ago ... there IS a very good body of data from numerous drs stating his body did not go cold for a few days AND he did not decay! Think what you will about this
I had a friend who was a Trancendental Meditation teacher .... he had some great ideas, as did I.
I asked him "why are we here?" ... He answered "we are god splashing the warm bath" ... e.g. when you sit in a warm bath, eventually your skin and the water temperature become the same .... the only way to 'know' the water is still warm is to splash it up onto where it has not been before.
We are Gods way of "knowing itself" (btw, this 'god' is waaay beyond the average humans comprehension)
Suffice to say, "we" are ALL connected as we are ALL just 'energy' although we may 'think' otherwise.
Why do SO MANY folks 'discover this' via drugs like LSD and other mood/mind altering substances?
Becoz these compounds temporarily release us from our "beliefs" and suspend our "knowing"
Speaking for myself, it's pretty hard to define what I have 'learned' from tripping balls! and yet this 'experience' is quite consistent amongst people who have taken certain psychedelic drugs ... you know the ole "turn on, tune in and drop out" hippy mentality?
Although the most incredible and profound experience of "comprehending everything" occurred to me while completely straight, just lying in bed thinking (aka meditating) about/upon how we could all get on better.
It's hard enough to verbally explain, let alone write out here.
It has only happened to me once, about 25years ago .... simply, I "exploded out of my head into the stars and became light years huge, a part of space/universe itself"
Q: "God" is supposed to be without 'beginning or end' ... ALL 'knowing' (omniscient) .... I ask myself "what IS everywhere AND contains everything?"
My answer is "Energy" ... it cannot be Created nor destroyed, it just changes form .... and IS 'in' everything ... to me this IS what the Great Prohpets TRIED to 'explain to an ignorant people in a way they COULD comprehend", about "cause and effect" ... using metaphors which were relevant in the day .... the qaran has been just as mis-interpreted as all the other religious texts, people do not garner the same meaning from 'words' ... this is where science comes into it.
Humans CAN and DO manipulate energy for their 'benefit' ... using SCIENCE to repeat and develop their discoveries ...
Science says that "proof" need be 'repeatable' by ANY one who follows the experiment correctly ...
How can you accept the science of computers without "guidance from your beloved Quran?"
They are not mentioned in it are they?
IF Islam was SO 'scientifically advanced', 1000 years ago, why is it still clinging to anachronistic ideas today?
Religions say this too BUT fail to 'prove' it ... not everyone who 'repeat' the behaviour of the Prophet Mohammed has the 'same experience' Mohammed did! It's self evident.
btw IMO Christian Fanatics were, about 5-600 years ago,, THE most brutal religion around ... science has tempered it somewhat, alas science has not tempered Islamic fanatics much ... how can one honestly believe that "allah" want you to KILL others? Allah akbar? Nyet!
Karma = Action .... (almost) ALL actions 'begin' with a 'thought' ...
Almost All actions have 'intent' behind them ...
Expectations are the Basis for disappointment ... IF nothing changes, nothing changes.
jundalillahi, I believe you ARE "mistaken" on MANY things you say, sadly.
Admittedly this is a difficult topic at the best of times, and debating online has been compared to winning the 'Special Olympics" ... even If you win, you're still disabled! Plus you are not a native english speaker, so I commend your efforts, but not your message.
I think Heavy smoker and TitsMcGee and others on this thread have made many good points, on the other hand, you are just 'telling us what you were told' .... this is known as dogma (aka brainwashing)
Sadly ALL religions are guilty of doing this to their children, which IMO is completely wrong and inherently dangerous for to do so restricts free thinking ... I speak from personal experience! It took me a loooong time to "free" myself from the bullshit I WAS TOLD/TAUGHT ...
I suggest you read a few books by a neuroscientist named Sam Harris, called, The End of Faith, and The Moral Landscape ... pm me when you have and try saying you are 'unconvinced'
this man and his colleagues are attempting to scientifically understand peoples emotions and related behaviour, human values and why we have them ... he says that "in principle, science SHOULD be able to tell us what we OUGHT to DO to live the best lives possible"
Harris says that we already know enough about the human brain and its relationship to events in this world, to say that there ARE "right and wrong answers too the most pressing questions of human life"
I concur with him.
There is a saying that 'we teach best what we need to know' ... by convincing others to agree with your pov is simply a way people use to convince THEMSELVES they "are right/correct" in what they "believe" and subsequently 'say/state'
Sorry if this is a bit all over the shop but you bastards have covered SO much ground here in 9 pages ... I'm overwhelmed
I hope you all find peace and happiness ... remember, "the two things you can give away, yet never lose, are, what you know, and how you feel"
Peace love and mung beans all
m m m motek
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If you think Muslim wanna kill everybody then you a clearly dont know much about Islam. But I don't blame you.F
For the record of what do you base you claims?
Looking at recent history I though that the USA wanted to kill ever one who did not bow down to there will.
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If there's one thing we can be reasonably assured of, it's death.
Depends on what you think 'we' are. If you believe that we are the infinite universe, then we don't die. It's not just wishful thinking either. Our current physical form as individual, separate human beings is just an illusory perception and not our true nature, or ultimate reality. What we are is conscious energy, transformed into matter, manifesting in never ending, changing temporary physical forms. Sorry, but I'm gonna live forever.
In this sense sure, you're definitely going to live forever. But the only sense in which this is true is one that negates "Tobias is going too live forever". The stuff you're made of will last as long as the cosmos does, and is itself as old as the universe, and perhaps even consciousness is itself a unique and permanent object, but the unique subject "Tobias" that Tobias calls "I" (ego) will end when the brain that created it dies. The consciousness itself may indeed persist, I just don't know, but it is fairly clear that the identity of that consciousness will die with the memories stored on its brain. So if there's one thing we as specific subjective personalities can be reasonably assured of: it's death.
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[..] *Discussion regarding Buddhism*
There's a LOT of wisdom in Buddhist ideas as well as Eastern philosophies (e.g. Tao/Dao) in general. Wisdom that western cultures completely miss, almost as a rule, at our own peril. As a fellow aficionado of this loose collection of approaches toward truth, I think you might enjoy the link below. If you haven't already read it :)
(Clearnet) www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/
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That in western cultures complletely miss wisdom I agree.
Well we finally agree on something my dear abitpeckish.
I will go and read killing the buddah.
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@abitpeckish & jundullahi
'So if there's one thing we as specific subjective personalities can be reasonably assured of: it's death'
Yes, I know that the rational ego part of me will end at my death, just as it began at my birth, but that 'person' is not really me. it is just a temporary manifestation of me, physically, but also mentally. It is not just our physical atoms that precede and survive our brief earthly incarnation. My ego, character, behaviours, personality, my whole mental life did not just appear out of nothing, but they were shaped by all the interactions of countless lives that had gone before and passed down to me through my DNA and through the influence of my cultural heritage. Similarly, when I die (yes, die), my mental self is incorporated into the heritage of the universe, to influence it's future development. All the things I've done and all the people I've met will be connected to an infinite number of future events. I am connected to the past, before my birth and to the future, after my death. That past and future are also part of me. The connections are infinite. There is nothing in past or future which is not connected. Everything is me. It is a paradox to be both man and God, to die and yet live eternally, but that is our situation, I believe. The individual just needs to transform his concept of self from the one that dies, to the one that lives eternally. Then he will have no fear of death and love all creation as he loves himself.
Also, there is no 'loose collection' of approaches that I would endorse, although that did make me chuckle. I count all approaches to truth as being equally valid even if I have not encountered them all. I have studied Buddhism though and lived in a Buddhist monastery for a time as a layperson. As for the article, I would say it is exactly the same for any religion (and I count Buddhism in that). You have to kill the religion to see the truth behind it. Why do so many 'Westerners' go running to Buddhism? Is it because they are so prejudiced against the face of the Cristian religion that they cannot see the truths behind it, while their view of Eastern religions as being exotic and attractive is still unjaded. I suppose that whatever path works for the individual is good, but I think it's a bit naive to put one religion on a pedestal above others, thinking that following it is not subject to the same pitfalls as any other. Following dogma, idolatry and egotism are characteristics of the human condition, whichever religion people follow. I think Westerners would benefit from trying to see the truth behind the bullshit of Christianity instead of dismissing it. Western cultures completely miss wisdom that is sitting there on their own doorstep, nevermind from Buddhism. Studying all helps us see that all are the same and overcoming our greatest prejudices and forgetting what we think we know is an important part of our spiritual growth.
I'm gonna be offline for awhile as I have lots of work to do. Thanks for all these exchanges. It has made me re-evaluate lots of stuff I think and I am grateful for this opportunity to hopefully grow a bit I don't really have such conviction as my language might suggest sometimes. I'm just putting ideas out there, and everything is subject to change
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okayyyy let's do this. started from page 1 of this thread all the way to the last page
We are not like Christians that base there whole religion on blind faith.
Islam is a religion of reason.
What is blindingly believing in a book written by Man claiming to be the word of God? Not blind faith? really? If I write a book, say its the word of God and you believe it you're not having blind faith in me? And please don't single out Christians, every "religion" out there is based on blind belief. Don't believe me? Go to the priests/pundits/whatever of any religion, say you're an agnostic/from a different religion, tell them to prove your view is wrong and their view is the single and only view. If he starts answering and making claims about the religion......that religion is based on blind faith.
Lets say you walk in the jungle and you find a hut with a burning fire and a cooking pot on it with a nice smelling soup cooking inside. What would your first thought be.
Would you first though be. The wind blow and the tree and leaf fell and the hut was formed. The cooking pot oohh there must have been some kind of explosion that melted the iron and the cooking pot come to be. The some animal fell in died and then rain filled it with water. Then probably lighting struck and ignited the fire and after some time the soup got cooking.
Or would it be somebody build that hut make a cooking pot. Went hunting and collecting got some water from the river started the fore and probably will be back soon.
Forest through the trees. You've raised a great point but missed a great point as well. I think any rational man would know how a hut is created. I don't think any of us see a Highway and see "Look what God created these past 3 months". The REAL question you missed was "who created the JUNGLE". Think about THAT
By that I mean you have a sound a word and to that word is giving a meaning.
I hope you know EVER language (barring English which is just a rip off) was created by Sound. I asked this question once, I speak Hindi, Punjabi and was learning Sanskrit and they're all somewhat similar so I raised the question and it makes perfect sense. Mum was the perfect example for me.
Mother is a variation of
Mom
Mum
Ma
Amma
Ammi
so on...the mm is almost always there. when you say mm there is vibrations in your body, it relaxes your body. You could be stressed as fuck 10 minutes before school not being able to find your books then you yell "MUMMMMMM" and you know those books are as good as find. MM is also the vibration you get while meditating and chanting "OMMMMMMMM". so every language is based off sound
There is no compulsion in religion all is based on free will to chose
As a muslim could you CHOOSE to drink, eat pork, bacon, have sex with a man and CHOOSE to come out in the open say, in a public announcement in a mosque? No? Compulsion. In "religion" free will is an illusion
In the Quran Allah say that he created the heaven and the earth in six day. And the Quran as a book has no equal.
It's said in the Quran so every other theory of the Creation of the World is automatically false? Are you denying Hindus their 7 day world was painted by Brahma? Are you denying scientists their Big Bang?
That is why he is the Creator. The Ever Living The Ever Lasting. The One. The First The Last. Those Are just a some off the 99 of his names. He is Perfect.
The Creates but is not Created. He feeds but is not feed. And nobody is worthy of worship expect him
This is something I'd expect to hear when in 2 minds about wanting to make a donation at a religious place. If he feeds but is not fed then why does every religious place asks for donations? fuck they should be giving out change. they're blessed by God after all. He could create unlimited wealth for them! Surely If I knew people were going around selling my drugs to the whole world and I created them, you could bet your bottom dollar my suppliers supply would never be short and they wouldn't be asking for "donations"
If you expect that creation has a Creator. And then go on asking who created the Creator. You will get on endless circle
Yeah man. What came first? The Chicken or the Egg?
If you are curious about the truth. Ask Allah to show you the true. And he will repond.
Just keep on asking a lot He likes that
That's what my nanna always used to say to me. I ask her now as I ask you, how come he hasn't listened so far? not just me but millions if not billions around the world. And if he really is ALL KNOWING, WHY does he need a prayer in the first place?
You will not be convicted for what you for your thought.
I'm sorry....laws in Dubai i.e. Sharia laws say what.....disobey these rules and you will be.....? oh right
Thirdly in Islam opposed to other religion there is no priest caste. Yes there are scholar that explain the religions evidence according to the right understanding. And based upon that apply that to law
Please explain to yourself and everyone else here who a Mawlawi is in the mosque?.....actually I can see where this is going "Mawlawi is the title for a scholar lolol I was proved right", yeah but you only get it after reading, practicing and teaching EXTENSIVELY what's written in the holy books. So yeah it's a "priest caste" in its core. And Sharia law is based on THEIR interpreation of the Quran. Pretty sure people who question that interpretation are....well try to go to Dubai and kiss a girl in the public in the non-expat section and try your case in court...if they let you get there
Thirdly the is now forced circumcision if you chose to inter Islam and do not want to be circumcised for some reason. That may be consider a sin
Why is that a sin? why is drinking liquor a sin? why is eating pork a sin? why is intoxication a sin?
A totalitarian system in my opinion is not a bad thing as long a the ruler is just and the state cares for its citizens. And the state is there for the people instead the other way around. Like it is now.
WHAT? you've gone from "total free will and free will is all we have" to "a totalitarian system in my opinion is not a bad thing....". Conflicting Idealogies much? Religion does that
On a side not. In Islam taking tax is forbidden and so is interest.
In the Quran there is a verse that say something like this.
Those that follow my guides (Islam) the will not grive and will not fear.
Other verse. We (Allah) will give them an easy life.
Does NO ONE in ANY Islamic country pay ANY taxes? I know about Dubai/Saudi but you got to remember that the only reason is because of their oil fields. Somebody please go take all their oil and lets see when SHTF. On another note, can I go to the US, provide the Quran in the court of law and say, "Look here is the word of God, millions of people live by it, heck it's backed by scientific fact so I'm not going to pay taxes. Peace in the middle east"?
Yes Islam can disprove all other religion.
Then it's bullshit. I can remember this quote of the top of my head, not the entirety or who wrote it but the jist of it was as follows, "the same confidence with which I can say another man's religion is false teaches me to doubt my own"
The morons sorry mormons
Free choice to choose your own religion aye....oh sorry Islam disproves all other religion. Hindus are Kaafirs, Christians are mentals, and mormons are morons....ok....
On the scientologists I have one two world. Space Aliens. And there are very cult like. I you want to leave die might kill you. And to move higher up and read the higher level books you have to pay more.
To the Scientologists their book(s) are their Quran. Try going up to a Scientologists and say L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer who wrote similar stories before his "religion" and point them to the dodgy shit Scientology has been known to pull in the post. Post reactions here
Take war for an example. We have known wars to be undertaken in Gods name. However, we have also known wars to be undertaken in a nationalistic name too. Wherein here lies the constant? Is it because of organized religion that evil takes place? Or is it simply human nature to contain the opposing forces of Good and Evil, for which we must decide ourselves.
Are you aware that the Court of Law you're in is Roman Catholic Law? Directly descended from how their priests used to don the Black Robe and dish out sentences in the days of the old. Do you know the only piece of non-taxed, non-claimed, non-registered land is for the Latin Church which is reponsible for our current Calendar? Do you know July and August were two months simply added in the name of Julius and Augusts. Dec means ten. December used to be the tenth month, SEPTember the sevent, OCTober the eighth, NOVember the ninth? They church is a big shareholder and beneficiary in Western civilisation
And Arabic words are either feminine or masculine. And in the Quran Allah said that he created man a step above the woman. There are various scientific reason that prove this point. But that is beyond the scope of this reply.
So because in Arabic something is either he or she its is logical that Allah would be referred to as He.
Again, with the exception of English, every language I've come across words are either feminine or masculine.
Thing about algebra, the concept of zero was finished. And most of the surgical tools used today have been improved or invented by Muslims.
I believe Indians are credited with creating Zero and fundamental advancements in Maths. Nothing to do with the "golden age of islam"
Can I force you to believe. No I cannot. Can I force you to pray 5 time a day? No.
Does your religion force you to believe? Yes. Does your religion force you to pray 5 times a day? Yes.
And I can back up the validity of the Quran from outside the Quran. Read above about the a man who could not read or write and came with verse that blow everybody away. And the challenge is still open. Nobody could come with some thing equal to the Quran even a single chapter.
Do you know almost all stories (especially religous) are based on the solar system and the behaviour of said solar system? If one were so inclined as to simply spend 10 years day, night, looking at the stars with 5 other people he would have the greatest story of all time. An epic that would extend beyond the ages. It's what people did back in the day with no tv's, computers, games. It's how the Egyptians built their pyramids, they ALL have something to do with the solar system
I wish you the best
and true succes afte death.
Why? You can't have true success before death? Sounds pretty Jihaadi to me. "Yeah the world is fucked up and miserable, just die ASAP for God and he will reward you AFTER death!"
You think religion is for the weak?
You try praying 5 times a day and fasting month.
So your religion has got you so stuck up that you think people who can't do what YOUR religion says to do are WEAK?
The man has his role and the woman has here role.
Free choice and no opression you say.
Finally some quotes on religion
Rivers, ponds, lakes and streams - they all have different names, but they all contain water. Just as religions do - they all contain truths.
Muhammad Ali
When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.
Desmond Tutu
It is wonderful how much time good people spend fighting the devil. If they would only expend the same amount of energy loving their fellow men, the devil would die in his own tracks of ennui.
Helen Keller
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi
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Didn't you say yourself somewhere an illterate man wrote it....or was that just a few verses?
And what's next? you're going to believe Allah wrote it? Come on man even Bhagvad Gita is said to be the words of Ganesha but written by Ved Vyasa. I hope you know every book from the Bible, to the Gita, to the whatever is written in the realm of man, by the realm of man, for the realm of man.
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okayyyy let's do this. started from page 1 of this thread all the way to the last page
We are not like Christians that base there whole religion on blind faith.
Islam is a religion of reason.
What is blindingly believing in a book written by Man claiming to be the word of God? Not blind faith? really? If I write a book, say its the word of God and you believe it you're not having blind faith in me? And please don't single out Christians, every "religion" out there is based on blind belief. Don't believe me? Go to the priests/pundits/whatever of any religion, say you're an agnostic/from a different religion, tell them to prove your view is wrong and their view is the single and only view. If he starts answering and making claims about the religion......that religion is based on blind faith.
Lets say you walk in the jungle and you find a hut with a burning fire and a cooking pot on it with a nice smelling soup cooking inside. What would your first thought be.
Would you first though be. The wind blow and the tree and leaf fell and the hut was formed. The cooking pot oohh there must have been some kind of explosion that melted the iron and the cooking pot come to be. The some animal fell in died and then rain filled it with water. Then probably lighting struck and ignited the fire and after some time the soup got cooking.
Or would it be somebody build that hut make a cooking pot. Went hunting and collecting got some water from the river started the fore and probably will be back soon.
Forest through the trees. You've raised a great point but missed a great point as well. I think any rational man would know how a hut is created. I don't think any of us see a Highway and see "Look what God created these past 3 months". The REAL question you missed was "who created the JUNGLE". Think about THAT
By that I mean you have a sound a word and to that word is giving a meaning.
I hope you know EVER language (barring English which is just a rip off) was created by Sound. I asked this question once, I speak Hindi, Punjabi and was learning Sanskrit and they're all somewhat similar so I raised the question and it makes perfect sense. Mum was the perfect example for me.
Mother is a variation of
Mom
Mum
Ma
Amma
Ammi
so on...the mm is almost always there. when you say mm there is vibrations in your body, it relaxes your body. You could be stressed as fuck 10 minutes before school not being able to find your books then you yell "MUMMMMMM" and you know those books are as good as find. MM is also the vibration you get while meditating and chanting "OMMMMMMMM". so every language is based off sound
There is no compulsion in religion all is based on free will to chose
As a muslim could you CHOOSE to drink, eat pork, bacon, have sex with a man and CHOOSE to come out in the open say, in a public announcement in a mosque? No? Compulsion. In "religion" free will is an illusion
In the Quran Allah say that he created the heaven and the earth in six day. And the Quran as a book has no equal.
It's said in the Quran so every other theory of the Creation of the World is automatically false? Are you denying Hindus their 7 day world was painted by Brahma? Are you denying scientists their Big Bang?
That is why he is the Creator. The Ever Living The Ever Lasting. The One. The First The Last. Those Are just a some off the 99 of his names. He is Perfect.
The Creates but is not Created. He feeds but is not feed. And nobody is worthy of worship expect him
This is something I'd expect to hear when in 2 minds about wanting to make a donation at a religious place. If he feeds but is not fed then why does every religious place asks for donations? fuck they should be giving out change. they're blessed by God after all. He could create unlimited wealth for them! Surely If I knew people were going around selling my drugs to the whole world and I created them, you could bet your bottom dollar my suppliers supply would never be short and they wouldn't be asking for "donations"
If you expect that creation has a Creator. And then go on asking who created the Creator. You will get on endless circle
Yeah man. What came first? The Chicken or the Egg?
If you are curious about the truth. Ask Allah to show you the true. And he will repond.
Just keep on asking a lot He likes that
That's what my nanna always used to say to me. I ask her now as I ask you, how come he hasn't listened so far? not just me but millions if not billions around the world. And if he really is ALL KNOWING, WHY does he need a prayer in the first place?
You will not be convicted for what you for your thought.
I'm sorry....laws in Dubai i.e. Sharia laws say what.....disobey these rules and you will be.....? oh right
Thirdly in Islam opposed to other religion there is no priest caste. Yes there are scholar that explain the religions evidence according to the right understanding. And based upon that apply that to law
Please explain to yourself and everyone else here who a Mawlawi is in the mosque?.....actually I can see where this is going "Mawlawi is the title for a scholar lolol I was proved right", yeah but you only get it after reading, practicing and teaching EXTENSIVELY what's written in the holy books. So yeah it's a "priest caste" in its core. And Sharia law is based on THEIR interpreation of the Quran. Pretty sure people who question that interpretation are....well try to go to Dubai and kiss a girl in the public in the non-expat section and try your case in court...if they let you get there
Thirdly the is now forced circumcision if you chose to inter Islam and do not want to be circumcised for some reason. That may be consider a sin
Why is that a sin? why is drinking liquor a sin? why is eating pork a sin? why is intoxication a sin?
A totalitarian system in my opinion is not a bad thing as long a the ruler is just and the state cares for its citizens. And the state is there for the people instead the other way around. Like it is now.
WHAT? you've gone from "total free will and free will is all we have" to "a totalitarian system in my opinion is not a bad thing....". Conflicting Idealogies much? Religion does that
On a side not. In Islam taking tax is forbidden and so is interest.
In the Quran there is a verse that say something like this.
Those that follow my guides (Islam) the will not grive and will not fear.
Other verse. We (Allah) will give them an easy life.
Does NO ONE in ANY Islamic country pay ANY taxes? I know about Dubai/Saudi but you got to remember that the only reason is because of their oil fields. Somebody please go take all their oil and lets see when SHTF. On another note, can I go to the US, provide the Quran in the court of law and say, "Look here is the word of God, millions of people live by it, heck it's backed by scientific fact so I'm not going to pay taxes. Peace in the middle east"?
Yes Islam can disprove all other religion.
Then it's bullshit. I can remember this quote of the top of my head, not the entirety or who wrote it but the jist of it was as follows, "the same confidence with which I can say another man's religion is false teaches me to doubt my own"
The morons sorry mormons
Free choice to choose your own religion aye....oh sorry Islam disproves all other religion. Hindus are Kaafirs, Christians are mentals, and mormons are morons....ok....
On the scientologists I have one two world. Space Aliens. And there are very cult like. I you want to leave die might kill you. And to move higher up and read the higher level books you have to pay more.
To the Scientologists their book(s) are their Quran. Try going up to a Scientologists and say L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer who wrote similar stories before his "religion" and point them to the dodgy shit Scientology has been known to pull in the post. Post reactions here
Take war for an example. We have known wars to be undertaken in Gods name. However, we have also known wars to be undertaken in a nationalistic name too. Wherein here lies the constant? Is it because of organized religion that evil takes place? Or is it simply human nature to contain the opposing forces of Good and Evil, for which we must decide ourselves.
Are you aware that the Court of Law you're in is Roman Catholic Law? Directly descended from how their priests used to don the Black Robe and dish out sentences in the days of the old. Do you know the only piece of non-taxed, non-claimed, non-registered land is for the Latin Church which is reponsible for our current Calendar? Do you know July and August were two months simply added in the name of Julius and Augusts. Dec means ten. December used to be the tenth month, SEPTember the sevent, OCTober the eighth, NOVember the ninth? They church is a big shareholder and beneficiary in Western civilisation
And Arabic words are either feminine or masculine. And in the Quran Allah said that he created man a step above the woman. There are various scientific reason that prove this point. But that is beyond the scope of this reply.
So because in Arabic something is either he or she its is logical that Allah would be referred to as He.
Again, with the exception of English, every language I've come across words are either feminine or masculine.
Thing about algebra, the concept of zero was finished. And most of the surgical tools used today have been improved or invented by Muslims.
I believe Indians are credited with creating Zero and fundamental advancements in Maths. Nothing to do with the "golden age of islam"
Can I force you to believe. No I cannot. Can I force you to pray 5 time a day? No.
Does your religion force you to believe? Yes. Does your religion force you to pray 5 times a day? Yes.
And I can back up the validity of the Quran from outside the Quran. Read above about the a man who could not read or write and came with verse that blow everybody away. And the challenge is still open. Nobody could come with some thing equal to the Quran even a single chapter.
Do you know almost all stories (especially religous) are based on the solar system and the behaviour of said solar system? If one were so inclined as to simply spend 10 years day, night, looking at the stars with 5 other people he would have the greatest story of all time. An epic that would extend beyond the ages. It's what people did back in the day with no tv's, computers, games. It's how the Egyptians built their pyramids, they ALL have something to do with the solar system
I wish you the best
and true succes afte death.
Why? You can't have true success before death? Sounds pretty Jihaadi to me. "Yeah the world is fucked up and miserable, just die ASAP for God and he will reward you AFTER death!"
You think religion is for the weak?
You try praying 5 times a day and fasting month.
So your religion has got you so stuck up that you think people who can't do what YOUR religion says to do are WEAK?
The man has his role and the woman has here role.
Free choice and no opression you say.
Finally some quotes on religion
Rivers, ponds, lakes and streams - they all have different names, but they all contain water. Just as religions do - they all contain truths.
Muhammad Ali
When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.
Desmond Tutu
It is wonderful how much time good people spend fighting the devil. If they would only expend the same amount of energy loving their fellow men, the devil would die in his own tracks of ennui.
Helen Keller
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi
+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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The coming of the Prophet Muhammed was prophesied in every scripture/revelation.
But that is an other subject.
Yes I believe that the Quran is a Revelation for Allah. Send down too a illiterate man.
And the Quran is the highest form of Arabic literature unsurpassed till this day.
It posses a challenge to write something similar that has stood uncontested for 1400 years.
Should make you wonder how an illiterate man wrote such a book
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The coming of the Prophet Muhammed was prophesied in every scripture/revelation.
But that is an other subject.
whats that got to do with the book being written by a man?
Yes I believe that the Quran is a Revelation for Allah. Send down too a illiterate man.
And the Quran is an the high form of Arabic literature unsurpassed till this day.
It even posses a challenge to write something similar that has stood for 1400 years.
Should make you wonder how an illiterate man wrote such a book
So written by an illterate man? not written? you sound confused. Maybe the next "logical" step would be to say God possessed him and gave him the wisdom he needed to write it
and why do you keep bringing up that stupid challenge?
Have you read the Bible? Gita? Really old school poetry? Shakespeare plays?
I doubt people have reached that level of writing either, so they're all God's word? Hardly.
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I'm awesome.
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The coming of the Prophet Muhammed was prophesied in every scripture/revelation.
But that is an other subject.
whats that got to do with the book being written by a man?
Yes I believe that the Quran is a Revelation for Allah. Send down too a illiterate man.
And the Quran is an the high form of Arabic literature unsurpassed till this day.
It even posses a challenge to write something similar that has stood for 1400 years.
Should make you wonder how an illiterate man wrote such a book
So written by an illterate man? not written? you sound confused. Maybe the next "logical" step would be to say God possessed him and gave him the wisdom he needed to write it
and why do you keep bringing up that stupid challenge?
Have you read the Bible? Gita? Really old school poetry? Shakespeare plays?
I doubt people have reached that level of writing either, so they're all God's word? Hardly.
And so if you state that God possessed him then its was an revelation from God. And still who an illiterate man who remained illiterate till the end of his life write. You contradicted your of statement
Well he was not possessed but visited by an angel and memorized the verse that were send down. Then later the Quran was written down and remained unchanged till this day.
according to: Maurice Bucaille states in The Bible, The Qur'an and Science that "The Quranic Revelation has a history which is fundamentally different from the other two. It spanned a period of some twenty years and, as soon as it was transmitted to Muhammad by Archangel Gabriel, Believers learned it by heart. It was also written down during Muhammad's life. The last recensions of the Quran were effected under Caliph Uthman starting some twelve years after the Prophet's death and finishing twenty-four years after it. They had the advantage of being checked by people who already knew the text by heart, for they had learned it at the time of the Revelation itself and had subsequently recited it constantly. Since then, we know that the text has been scrupulously preserved. It does not give rise to any problems of authenticity.
It have proven that the Bible has not as authentic as some claim. There are numbers contradiction in it and the authors of some passages are unknown.
It has been translated multiple times and there will always something going to be lost in translation. Plus books have been add subtracted. And every Church sect uses it own version King James etc.
The Gita well is has been changed over time. Or else the teaching in it would remain the same. Because all holy scriptures are revelation from one single God.
And well did Shakespeare ever claim to be a Prophet and that his claim his plays were revelations? And I bet if some one knew the old English with enough talent time and motivation would be able to write something similar to Shakespeare.
And why I bring up this challenge. Look the Arabs in the age of Prophet Muhammed were at the highest level of eloquent speech and poetry and if any would be able to write something similar to the Quran they would. So that was mostly a challenge to them and is till standing.
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"Looking at recent history I though that the USA wanted to kill ever one who did not bow down to there will."
but .... that's true!! They DO!
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We are not like Christians that base there whole religion on blind faith.
Islam is a religion of reason.
What is blindingly believing in a book written by Man claiming to be the word of God? Not blind faith? really? If I write a book, say its the word of God and you believe it you're not having blind faith in me? And please don't single out Christians, every "religion" out there is based on blind belief. Don't believe me? Go to the priests/pundits/whatever of any religion, say you're an agnostic/from a different religion, tell them to prove your view is wrong and their view is the single and only view. If he starts answering and making claims about the religion......that religion is based on blind faith.
How did an illiterate man write a book?
The Christian religion is based on blind faith because there teaching are not supported by there own book. Go look up some debates between Ahmed Deedat and Christian scholars.
Quote
Lets say you walk in the jungle and you find a hut with a burning fire and a cooking pot on it with a nice smelling soup cooking inside. What would your first thought be.
Would you first though be. The wind blow and the tree and leaf fell and the hut was formed. The cooking pot oohh there must have been some kind of explosion that melted the iron and the cooking pot come to be. The some animal fell in died and then rain filled it with water. Then probably lighting struck and ignited the fire and after some time the soup got cooking.
Or would it be somebody build that hut make a cooking pot. Went hunting and collecting got some water from the river started the fore and probably will be back soon.
Forest through the trees. You've raised a great point but missed a great point as well. I think any rational man would know how a hut is created. I don't think any of us see a Highway and see "Look what God created these past 3 months". The REAL question you missed was "who created the JUNGLE". Think about THAT
I think you did not understand my analogy. The Creator created the Jungle and the universe
Quote
By that I mean you have a sound a word and to that word is giving a meaning.
I hope you know EVER language (barring English which is just a rip off) was created by Sound. I asked this question once, I speak Hindi, Punjabi and was learning Sanskrit and they're all somewhat similar so I raised the question and it makes perfect sense. Mum was the perfect example for me.
Mother is a variation of
Mom
Mum
Ma
Amma
Ammi
so on...the mm is almost always there. when you say mm there is vibrations in your body, it relaxes your body. You could be stressed as fuck 10 minutes before school not being able to find your books then you yell "MUMMMMMM" and you know those books are as good as find. MM is also the vibration you get while meditating and chanting "OMMMMMMMM". so every language is based off sound
You missed my point. My points was that most languages are conceptual are word for example the word bus. Has been assigned the meaning we all know.
Arabic is for the most is base on a root and pattern system.
Example. kataba means he wrote. Kitaab means book. Kaatib means writer. maktab is a desk. maktabah is a libary or office.
You see what I mean.
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There is no compulsion in religion all is based on free will to chose
As a muslim could you CHOOSE to drink, eat pork, bacon, have sex with a man and CHOOSE to come out in the open say, in a public announcement in a mosque? No? Compulsion. In "religion" free will is an illusion
Compulsion in religion means that no one can beforced to believe that Islam or any other religion is the truth.
But ones become Muslim. It is the same like becoming a citizen of a country ones you are a citizen of country then you are required to obey the rules if not well then you have to bare the consequences. You understand.
Quote
In the Quran Allah say that he created the heaven and the earth in six day. And the Quran as a book has no equal.
It's said in the Quran so every other theory of the Creation of the World is automatically false? Are you denying Hindus their 7 day world was painted by Brahma? Are you denying scientists their Big Bang?
First Allah say in the Quran
32-5
He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.
And by thousand it means not thousand but very very very much.
Like in English people saying a told you a million times. Do they mean that literary?
Or course not.
PS there are verse describing the big bang look up Quran and modern science.
You might be surprised.
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That is why he is the Creator. The Ever Living The Ever Lasting. The One. The First The Last. Those Are just a some off the 99 of his names. He is Perfect.
The Creates but is not Created. He feeds but is not feed. And nobody is worthy of worship expect him
This is something I'd expect to hear when in 2 minds about wanting to make a donation at a religious place. If he feeds but is not fed then why does every religious place asks for donations? fuck they should be giving out change. they're blessed by God after all. He could create unlimited wealth for them! Surely If I knew people were going around selling my drugs to the whole world and I created them, you could bet your bottom dollar my suppliers supply would never be short and they wouldn't be asking for "donations"
Islam the 2,5 percent poor tax is used to feed the poor. And is used to purify a person and his wealth. And there is a saying from the Prophet saying:
Charity does not in any way decrease the wealth and the servant who forgives, Allah adds to his respect; and the one who shows humility, Allah elevates him in the estimation (of the people)
Those who spend their wealth (in Allâh's Cause) by night and day, in secret and in public, they shall have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. } Qur’an 2: 274
If you make a qoute also keep in mind the context.
Quote
If you expect that creation has a Creator. And then go on asking who created the Creator. You will get on endless circle
Yeah man. What came first? The Chicken or the Egg?
That is just silly. Every thing created needs a creator. What came first Allah created the chicken and the egg. question answers oke. Make rational sense then every thing came form nothing
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If you are curious about the truth. Ask Allah to show you the true. And he will repond.
Just keep on asking a lot He likes that
That's what my nanna always used to say to me. I ask her now as I ask you, how come he hasn't listened so far? not just me but millions if not billions around the world. And if he really is ALL KNOWING, WHY does he need a prayer in the first place?
He doesn't need you prayer. He doesn't need anything He is the Everlasting. The Self Sustaining. We need Him we need. And we pray to show or gratitude to him for his blessing.
And well if you sincerely ask Allah for guides with out attributing any partners to Him. He will respond and show you His signs. And then your free will come in to play and you make a choice you fallow the guidance or you don't. But He does respond yet maybe in a way you don't expect.
Quote
You will not be convicted for what you for your thought.
I'm sorry....laws in Dubai i.e. Sharia laws say what.....disobey these rules and you will be.....? oh right
When I am talking about Islam and it Laws I am talking about how it ideally should be how it was in the time of the Prophet and how God willing will be again.
Country ruled by the Sharia do not exist at the moment. All Islamic countries are ruled by oppressive dictatorial regimes that are in fact Puppets of the NWO.
Quote
Thirdly in Islam opposed to other religion there is no priest caste. Yes there are scholar that explain the religions evidence according to the right understanding. And based upon that apply that to law
Please explain to yourself and everyone else here who a Mawlawi is in the mosque?.....actually I can see where this is going "Mawlawi is the title for a scholar lolol I was proved right", yeah but you only get it after reading, practicing and teaching EXTENSIVELY what's written in the holy books. So yeah it's a "priest caste" in its core. And Sharia law is based on THEIR interpreation of the Quran. Pretty sure people who question that interpretation are....well try to go to Dubai and kiss a girl in the public in the non-expat section and try your case in court...if they let you get there
There is are scholars yes but there is no scholar caste like in Hinduism or Judaism. You are not born in to a caste. Every Muslim if studies long enough can become a scholar.
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Thirdly the is now forced circumcision if you chose to inter Islam and do not want to be circumcised for some reason. That may be consider a sin
Why is that a sin? why is drinking liquor a sin? why is eating pork a sin? why is intoxication a sin?
Well because is an order from Allah. If you become Muslim you have to obey to laws.
Just like becoming a citizen of a country you will have be required to obey its laws.
Quote
A totalitarian system in my opinion is not a bad thing as long a the ruler is just and the state cares for its citizens. And the state is there for the people instead the other way around. Like it is now.
WHAT? you've gone from "total free will and free will is all we have" to "a totalitarian system in my opinion is not a bad thing....". Conflicting Idealogies much? Religion does that
I mean that if a country has a single just ruler and the state is there for the people
and not the people for state. And the people are free to express the opinion and advice the just leader. And this leader will listen care for there words and care for his people in such a
situation a single ruler is not a problem. Because a single ruler could plan and have a long term plan for the country in and the time to reach the goals wants to achieve.
If you have democracy changing every 4 years then there is no long term vision no long term plan and even if there was no time to complete them. Understand.
Totalitarian should not mean oppressive is the ruler is just and cares for his people and the people has the possibly to speak out with out fear repression. Then I ask you what is the problem?
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On a side not. In Islam taking tax is forbidden and so is interest.
In the Quran there is a verse that say something like this.
Those that follow my guides (Islam) the will not grive and will not fear.
Other verse. We (Allah) will give them an easy life.
Does NO ONE in ANY Islamic country pay ANY taxes? I know about Dubai/Saudi but you got to remember that the only reason is because of their oil fields. Somebody please go take all their oil and lets see when SHTF. On another note, can I go to the US, provide the Quran in the court of law and say, "Look here is the word of God, millions of people live by it, heck it's backed by scientific fact so I'm not going to pay taxes. Peace in the middle east"?
Again I was speaking about Islamic Law has it is mean to be in society ruled by it.
And like I said before such countries do not exist.
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Yes Islam can disprove all other religion.
Then it's bullshit. I can remember this quote of the top of my head, not the entirety or who wrote it but the jist of it was as follows, "the same confidence with which I can say another man's religion is false teaches me to doubt my own"
Go watch Ahmed Deedat debating various Christan scholars. Or Dr. Zakir Naik debating
Hindu's.
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The morons sorry mormons
Free choice to choose your own religion aye....oh sorry Islam disproves all other religion. Hindus are Kaafirs, Christians are mentals, and mormons are morons....ok....
Quote
On the scientologists I have one two world. Space Aliens. And there are very cult like. I you want to leave die might kill you. And to move higher up and read the higher level books you have to pay more.
To the Scientologists their book(s) are their Quran. Try going up to a Scientologists and say L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer who wrote similar stories before his "religion" and point them to the dodgy shit Scientology has been known to pull in the post. Post reactions here
Well have you ever watch documanties about Scientologists and Hubbard was proven a fraud on some occasions.
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Take war for an example. We have known wars to be undertaken in Gods name. However, we have also known wars to be undertaken in a nationalistic name too. Wherein here lies the constant? Is it because of organized religion that evil takes place? Or is it simply human nature to contain the opposing forces of Good and Evil, for which we must decide ourselves.
Are you aware that the Court of Law you're in is Roman Catholic Law? Directly descended from how their priests used to don the Black Robe and dish out sentences in the days of the old. Do you know the only piece of non-taxed, non-claimed, non-registered land is for the Latin Church which is reponsible for our current Calendar? Do you know July and August were two months simply added in the name of Julius and Augusts. Dec means ten. December used to be the tenth month, SEPTember the sevent, OCTober the eighth, NOVember the ninth? They church is a big shareholder and beneficiary in Western civilisation
I dont understand how what you have said relates to the quote you quoted.
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And Arabic words are either feminine or masculine. And in the Quran Allah said that he created man a step above the woman. There are various scientific reason that prove this point. But that is beyond the scope of this reply.
So because in Arabic something is either he or she its is logical that Allah would be referred to as He.
Again, with the exception of English, every language I've come across words are either feminine or masculine.
Then you knowledge of linguistic is limited. I speak 4 languages,
Russian, English, Dutch although have masculine, feminine, neuter. I also speak Arabic
neuter.
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Thing about algebra, the concept of zero was finished. And most of the surgical tools used today have been improved or invented by Muslims.
I believe Indians are credited with creating Zero and fundamental advancements in Maths. Nothing to do with the "golden age of islam"
I did not say that Muslim invented the concept of zero. I said they perfected it.
And algebra way perfected in the Islamic Golden Age. Algebra is an Arabic word
Al-Jabr. I ask you why?
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Can I force you to believe. No I cannot. Can I force you to pray 5 time a day? No.
Does your religion force you to believe? Yes. Does your religion force you to pray 5 times a day? Yes.
Yes Muslim are required to pray. Like I all ready said ones you chose to become Muslim you are required to obey the laws.
And I law to pray. Because when I pray I am standing in front of my Creator. And I cannot imagine a life with out Salaah (arabic world for prayer). The high I get from is better then any drugs I have ever did. I get peace of mind,heart more energy and feel refreshed.
It is like describing how acid is like to some one how has never tried it. I am happy to pray and do it willing.
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And I can back up the validity of the Quran from outside the Quran. Read above about the a man who could not read or write and came with verse that blow everybody away. And the challenge is still open. Nobody could come with some thing equal to the Quran even a single chapter.
Do you know almost all stories (especially religous) are based on the solar system and the behaviour of said solar system? If one were so inclined as to simply spend 10 years day, night, looking at the stars with 5 other people he would have the greatest story of all time. An epic that would extend beyond the ages. It's what people did back in the day with no tv's, computers, games. It's how the Egyptians built their pyramids, they ALL have something to do with the solar system
Again your reply to the quote does not make much sense.
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I wish you the best
and true succes afte death.
Why? You can't have true success before death? Sounds pretty Jihaadi to me. "Yeah the world is fucked up and miserable, just die ASAP for God and he will reward you AFTER death!"
Why I will explain.
The Prophet Muhammed said. None of you truly believe until you wishes for his brother the same he wishes for himself.
I believe Allah created the first two humans and we are all descended form them. And in that sense we are all brother. I wish for my self paradise and wish it for everybody else to.
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You think religion is for the weak?
You try praying 5 times a day and fasting month.
So your religion has got you so stuck up that you think people who can't do what YOUR religion says to do are WEAK?
Somebody made are remark that religion is for the weak. So I replied in kind.
I do not claim that you anybody is weak. I just wanted to point out that it does take some
effort to preform the various acts of worship.
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The man has his role and the woman has here role.
Free choice and no opression you say.
That is Islamic Law dont like it dont become Muslim.
Yet I know a lot of Muslim Women who revert to Islam. Go ask them if they are oppressed.
67:29
Say, "He is the Most Merciful; we have believed in Him, and upon Him we have relied. And you will [come to] know who it is that is in clear error."
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@jundallahi
The total amount of pure logic that has been presented to you, along with the flaws of your belief system pointed out, over numerous threads in only the past few days is more than enough information to determine for yourself that Islam is not true. At the very best it is just a collection of folklore and cultural philosophy/general wisdom. Islam is mythology, in the same way Greek mythology is mythology, in the same way Christianity is mythology. If you can't see this, you're just avoiding truth. As in the facts.
We have failed to change each other's opinion, though it is clear that yours is less concerned with actual truth than mine. I wish there were a better way to say this, but if there is it escapes me. Happy travels, jundullahi, stay safe and may you one day wake up to the world in which we coexist.
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Let people believe what they wana believe, you can't argue with it so no point trying.
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You missed my points completely. I was never out on convincing any one just trying to get a message a cross straiten out some misconception about Islam that are out there.
I brought the best I had. There are other out there that a more knowledgeable then me.
I hope God willing some day you mean one of those and then such a person will explain to you more clearer way what Islam is.
You think that Islam is mythology well that is you opinion.
67:29
Say, "He is the Most Merciful; we have believed in Him, and upon Him we have relied. And you will [come to] know who it is that is in clear error."
And even if we have difference in opinion as long we treat each other with respect and do not force of believe, ideas upon each other. Then I see no reason why we should not be able to coexist peacefully and profit and prosper from each other.
I wish you the best and true success after death.
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hey jundallilahi could you post those 3 word verses in english here please matey?
I'm fascinated to see what they say
as for everything else written here....wow! just wow! (just call me "a dying steve jobs!" lol) @touchthesky and abitpeckish, we REALLY like what you both have to say....we pretty much concur with everything you both have said.
Peace, Love and Happy Dreams
magically munted mumbling motek
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You mean the Chapter of 3 verse with each 3 or 4 words in Arabic. In English there more words to each verse
108-1
Indeed, We have granted you, [O Muhammad], al-Kawthar. (a river in paradise)
108-2
So pray to your Lord and sacrifice [to Him alone].
108-3
Indeed, your enemy is the one cut off.
If this is what you meant I hope.
If is was something else please clarify.
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John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2:8,9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.
Isaiah 40:30-31
Even youths grow tired and weary, and young men stumble and fall; but those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Matthew 11:28-30
Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart ,and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.
That was the Bible
Yam hi na vyathayanyaethae, purusham purusharshabha
Samadu:khasukham dheeram, sO(a)mruthatvaaya kalpathae 2.15
Translation: Oh Arjuna ! That person whom these (sense organs and objects) do not disturb, who is equanimous in pain and pleasure and who is wise alone becomes fit for immortality.
Dheera, here, means one who is discriminating, one who has knowledge of the nithya-atma. The word panditha used earlier is replaced by this word. Wisdom lies in stoic endurance of fleeting experiences. Equipoise in the midst of conflicting experiences is the hallmark of maturity and is the gateway to moksha, immortality.
NaasathO vidhyathae bhaavO naabhaavO vidhyathae satha:
UbhayOrapi drushtO(a)nthasthvanayOsthathva dars(h)ibhi: 2.16
Translation:
There is no existence for the unreal. There is no non-existence for the Real. The truth of both these is indeed known by the seers of Reality.
That was the Bhagvad Gita
You see the point? They all have similar styles of writing. Just because yours is written in Arabic and you love the Arabic language and how your language sounds when you say it DOESN'T MEAN that this level of writing hasn't already been achieved
So your challenge was beaten a long time ago. Just because you don't know of it doesn't make it untrue
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No dont seem to have understood to point.
If you are to challenge me to a tennis game. And I lose and then claim you will never be able to beat me at tennis. I cannot then challenge you to a game of badminton and beat you.
And say you see. I can beat you.
Again. At the time of the revelation of the Quran. It was all time height of Arabic poetry and eloquent speech. So the challenge was mostly for them. Because the were so good at Arabic. And they could not reproduce something similar. The challenge has to be answered in Arabic.
And now may body tingle your heart tremble and your body tingle and your soul shiver.
Prophet Muhammad in Bhagavad gita as Kalki Avtar.
Kalki Avatar.
The most popular amongst all the Hindu scriptures is the Bhagavad Gita so lets see what the scripture says about prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
It is mentioned in Bhagvata Purana Khand 12 Adhyay 2 shlokas 18-20:
“It is in the house of Vishnuyash, the noble soul Brahmana chief of the village called sambhala that Lord Kalki will be incarnated”.
“The Lord of the universe, endowed with eight spiritual powers and excellence was unsurpassed in splendour and glory. Riding on a fleet horse given to him by angels, and with a sword in his hand, the saviour of the world will subdue all the miscreants”.
It is mentioned in Bhagwat Purana Khand 1 Adhyay 3 Shloka 25:
“Then in the twilight of the Kali age, when kings will be as good as robbers, this protector of the world will be born of Vishnuyasa under the name Kalki“. The description of the Kalki Avatar i.e. the final Avatar is given in the verses Kalki Purana chapter 2 verses 4, 5, 7, 11 & 15.
1. Mother’s name Sumati i.e. Aaminah
The name of his mother will be Sumati (K.P.2: 4 & 11), which means gentle and thoughtful, Prophet Muhammad’s mother’s name was Aaminah, which means peaceful and gentle.
2. Father’s name Vishnuyash i.e. Abdullah.
His father’s name will be ‘Vishnuyash’ which means ‘worshipper of Vishnu’ i.e. ‘worshipper of God’. Muhammad’s father’s name was Abdullah which means ‘obedient worshipper of Allah i.e. God’.
3. Born in Sambhala i.e. Makkah
He will be born in a village called ‘Sambhala’ which means house of peace and security. Makkah is known as Darul Aman, which means house of peace and security.
4. Born in house of Chief Priest.
He will be born in the house of chief of the village Sambhala. Muhammad (pbuh) was born in the house of the chief of the Kaaba.
5. Born on the 12th day of Madhav i.e. Rabi-ul-Awwal.
It is prophesied that Kalki Avtar will be born on the 12th day of the bright (first) half of the month of Madhav. It is a historical fact Muhammad (pbuh) was born on the 12th day of the bright half of the month of Rabi-ul-Awwal.
6. He will be the Antim or final Avatar
He has been described as the ‘Antim’ i.e. ‘the last and final’ of all the Avatars. The Qur’an also mentions:
Muhammad is not
The Father of any
Of your men, but (he is)
The Messenger of Allah,
And the seal (the last and final) of the Prophets,
And Allah has full knowledge
Of all things
(Al Qur’an 33:40)
Thus the Qur’an states that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the Seal, i.e. last and final Prophet of Allah.
7. Will receive knowledge on the mountain from the Lord and then go towards North and come back.
Kalki Avatar will go to the mountains and receive knowledge from Parsuram, then go towards the north and come back. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did go to Jable-Noor i.e. the Mountain of Light, where he received the first Revelation from Archangel Gabriel. Later he went north to Madeenah and later made a victorious return to Makkah.
8. He will have the most graceful personality.
Kalki Avatar will have unparalleled grace. Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Qalam chapter 68 verse 4:
And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character.
9. Endowed with eight special qualities
Kalki Avatar will be endowed with eight special qualities. These qualities are wisdom, respectable lineage, self-control, revealed knowledge, valour, measured speech, utmost charity and gratitude. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had all these eight special qualities.
a) Wisdom – He was very wise. It is no wonder that several people approached him for guidance, even before he claimed to be a prophet.
b) Respectable lineage – He belonged to the noble tribe of Quraysh who were the caretakers of the sacred Kaaba.
c) Self-control – He was the best example of self-control. From history, we learn that his enemies on many occasions tried to instigate him. However, he was always patient and responded wisely.
d) Revealed knowledge – Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received the last and final revelation of God, which is the Glorious Qur’an through Archangel Gabriel.
e) Valour – Muhammad (pbuh) possessed great physical strength and courage. He took active part in the battles against his enemies and most of such battles were fought in self-defence against aggression by the other party.
f) Measured speech – Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) spoke with emphasis and deliberation that people could not forget what he said. In his intercourse with others he would sit silent among his companions for long time but when he spoke his speech was eloquent and full of meaning and advise.
g) Utmost charity – Muhammad (pbuh) was very charitable and never disappointed anyone who asked for help even in situations when he himself was in financial difficulties. Many poor people lived only on his generosity.
h) Gratefulness – Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was known for his gratefulness He showed immense gratitude to the Ansaars i.e. the helpers from the city of Madeenah.
10. Teacher of the World.
The Kalki Avatar will be the saviour of the world i.e. he will guide and teach the world. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not only guide and save the Arabs but the whole humankind. The Qur’an mentions:
We have not sent thee
But as a universal Messenger
To men, giving them
Glad tidings, and warning them
(Against sin), but most men
Understand not.
(Al Qur’an 34:28)
11. Shiva will present a steed to Kalki avatar.
It is prophesied that Shiva will present an extraordinary steed to the Kalki Avatar. Muhammad (pbuh) received a steed from Almighty God, which was known as ‘Buraq’ and whose speed transcended.
12. He will ride a horse and carry a sword.
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received a heavenly steed from Almighty God called ‘Buraq’ on which he made his heavenly journey known as ‘Miraaj’ or the ‘Ascension to the heavens’.
Moreover, we also learn from the history of the Prophet that he himself took part in battles, most of which were fought in self-defence, and on many such occasions, he rode a horse and carried a sword in his hand.
13. He will subdue the wicked
It is mentioned that Kalki Avatar will subdue the wicked. It was prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who purified (transformed) bandits and miscreants and established them on the path of truth. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) came at a time, which was known as ‘Yaumul-Jahiliyah’, which means the “age or era of ignorance”. People indulged in various types of vices. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought them from darkness to light.
14. He will overpower the Devil with four companions
It is prophesied that Kalki Avatar, with four of his companions, will disarm Kali i.e. the devil. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), with his four most trusted companions, fought against the mischief and the evil of the devil. These four companions were Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali (may Allah be pleased with them all). These four companions later became the first four Khalifas and spread the religion of Islam. In Islamic parlance these four are referred to as ‘the rightly guided Caliphs’.
15. He will be assisted by angels.
The Kalki Avatar will be assisted by angels in the battlefield. In the battle of Badr, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was assisted by angels who descended from the heavens. This is also mentioned in the Qur’an in:
Surah Ale- Imran chapter 3 verse 123-125
Surah Al- Anfal chapter 8 verses 8 & 9.
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Again. At the time of the revelation of the Quran. It was all time height of Arabic poetry and eloquent speech. So the challenge was mostly for them. Because the were so good at Arabic. And they could not reproduce something similar. The challenge has to be answered in Arabic.
المعرفة الإنسانية يدحض إلهكم
(blame google for idiomatic issues)
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I was just curious as to your guys' views of a creator/higher power.
As for me, I'd say I'm agnostic, i believe its just impossible to know, religion is purely a man made concept that has caused more deaths than any disease, famine or anything else. IMO there could be a god but there is no way of human beings to know, it is just out of our realm of consciousness to comprehend. then again, i see it much more likely that there is no god, the universe is infinite and we, as humans, are nothing more than the size of an atom in the eye of the universe
Why do you care what other people think? You believe what you want to believe. That's my well aged opinion on the whole matter.
There is more out there to at least "test drive" to see if you'll like it.
You never know. It may take you places you otherwise never would've gotten to.
I imagine you a young man, perhaps in college, as everyone goes to college now, whether they need to or not. I'll leave you with a quote from Einstein, since most all you college boys know is some cliche college dorm poster of the man with his tongue sticking out, which somehow justifies whatever decadent behaviour you may find yourself trying to explain to your parents...............
"Your question [about God] is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.
-Albert Einstein
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
Food for thought.
I hope that at the very least, challenged your mind.
In the end, it's a very personal question, and one which is best kept to oneself, and never should infringe upon another beings freedom of peacefulness, and enjoyment of life.
As long as you don't cross that line?
Do what thoust will.
If not, be prepared to draw your weapon.
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Why do you care what other people think? You believe what you want to believe. That's my well aged opinion on the whole matter.
Because listening to what others believe can help you form your own beliefs perhaps? Can also maybe help you be a more well rounded individual with a greater understanding of those around you?
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+1 to that!
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abitpeckish is still keeping on pulling rabits out of his hat.
Go what the lecture the Quran and modern science by dr. Zakir Naik.
Look you may even find some modern scientists who maybe more knowledgeable about all lot of stuff then you
who revert to Islam and why.
You only want to see what you want to see.
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You only want to see what you want to see.
Sorry but that's the shittest argument that all religious people come out with and it's just a cheap and rather misty and vague pseudo-spiritual way of saying "You don't share the same opinion as me therefore you must be blind" and that shit can be turned on you in exactly the same way. Don't get me wrong I don't care if you are a Muslim, everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe but using cheap-shit lines like that and just quoting the Quran is just, to be frank, fucking lazy IMO.
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Christianity breeds ignorance.
Islam breeds violence.
Buddhists just chill and smoke a joint waiting for the whole thing to blow over.
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Well there other ones are quoting there books so then why can't I quote mine?
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First the first one I agree.
With the second one I do not.
Democracy and Colonialism, Capitalism, Communist, Nationalist has bread more violence then Islam ever did.
Look at history.
If the USA did not try to dominate the middle east. There would be no violence from the Muslim side.
Because are only order to fight those that fight them. And some feel that they are being fought so.
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Christianity breeds ignorance.
Islam breeds violence.
Buddhists just chill and smoke a joint waiting for the whole thing to blow over.
really can't tell if you're joking or not. if that's satire then nicely done EXCEPT you forgot to do a jew stereotype. judaism breeds impressive noses and bank balances? i guess we'll just leave hindus and sikhs and the rest as that seems to be the done thing.
clearweb - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22356306
Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims?
Of all the moral precepts instilled in Buddhist monks the promise not to kill comes first, and the principle of non-violence is arguably more central to Buddhism than any other major religion. So why have monks been using hate speech against Muslims and joining mobs that have left dozens dead?
This is happening in two countries separated by well over 1,000 miles of Indian Ocean - Burma and Sri Lanka. It is puzzling because neither country is facing an Islamist militant threat. Muslims in both places are a generally peaceable and small minority.
In Sri Lanka, the issue of halal slaughter has been a flashpoint. Led by monks, members of the Bodu Bala Sena - the Buddhist Brigade - hold rallies, call for direct action and the boycotting of Muslim businesses, and rail against the size of Muslim families.
While no Muslims have been killed in Sri Lanka, the Burmese situation is far more serious. Here the antagonism is spearheaded by the 969 group, led by a monk, Ashin Wirathu, who was jailed in 2003 for inciting religious hatred. Released in 2012, he has referred to himself bizarrely as "the Burmese Bin Laden".
March saw an outbreak of mob violence directed against Muslims in the town of Meiktila, in central Burma, which left at least 40 dead.
Tellingly, the violence began in a gold shop. The movements in both countries exploit a sense of economic grievance - a religious minority is used as the scapegoat for the frustrated aspirations of the majority.
On Tuesday, Buddhist mobs attacked mosques and burned more than 70 homes in Oakkan, north of Rangoon, after a Muslim girl on a bicycle collided with a monk. One person died and nine were injured.
But aren't Buddhist monks meant to be the good guys of religion?
Aggressive thoughts are inimical to all Buddhist teachings. Buddhism even comes equipped with a practical way to eliminate them. Through meditation the distinction between your feelings and those of others should begin to dissolve, while your compassion for all living things grows.
Of course, there is a strong strain of pacifism in Christian teachings too: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," were the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount.
But however any religion starts out, sooner or later it enters into a Faustian pact with state power. Buddhist monks looked to kings, the ultimate wielders of violence, for the support, patronage and order that only they could provide. Kings looked to monks to provide the popular legitimacy that only such a high moral vision can confer.
The result can seem ironic. If you have a strong sense of the overriding moral superiority of your worldview, then the need to protect and advance it can seem the most important duty of all.
Christian crusaders, Islamist militants, or the leaders of "freedom-loving nations", all justify what they see as necessary violence in the name of a higher good. Buddhist rulers and monks have been no exception.
etc.....
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Ron Swanson
Finally something I can agree with. Nice post one of the better ones I have seen so far.
Wish you the best.
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while it is clear to those who have broadened their horizons, he refuses to listen to various logical perspectives, twists sense into nonsense and throws it back inconsiderably.
he has apologised for doing so and yet continues to do it.
he has a lot of living to experience & his opinions will change with time.
OPEN QUESTION - Do the mentally challenged have any awareness of their disabilities?
If a mental patient told you that they had proof that only one of the religious stories was the right one, would you listen?
EVERY CULT MEMBER WHOLE-HEARTEDLY 'BELIEVES' IN THEIR CULTS POSITION UNTIL THEY ARE FACED WITH SOMETHING THAT PROVES IT ALL A SHAM, SOME WILL EVEN IGNORE THIS AND INSIST THAT THEIR KIN DIE RATHER THAN RECEIVE 'UNGODLY' MEDICAL ASSISTANCE (7th Day Adventists..and probly others)
So glad that touchthesky (and others) took the time to refute each point, i grew tired and thought what can you do other than force them to acknowledge their ignorance?
you can lead a horse to water.
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@jundullahi - Do you think the qu'ran is an accurate book for scientific knowledge, political systems, contract law, crime and punishment etc? I have to ask to understand your perspective of your faith as Islam is on par with Christianity for the complete disparity between the various levels of interpretation. I have no prejudice against any people (hence the above was jokingly yes, you can't get too serious in these debates or nobody will take you seriously), but I think it is more an issue that people compared Islam to other religions such as Christianity or Judaism, but they are very different as Christianity is just a faith, Islam is much more detailed through the Qu'ran and the Hadith on it's political agendas and specific aims and it is not full of vague analogies like the bible.
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i hate sand niggers aka dune coons and their islamic religion
i hate christians as well, probobly just as much but i like violence against muslims
i love watching apache gunship videos when 30mm rounds bust up muslims.. if the are hellfire missile strikes not as enjoyable but i do like to see if i can spot torsos flying through the air.. nothing like 30mm rounds into a muslim patrol though.
when i go to sleep i visualize bombs going off in the hajj gatherings.. america could be vastly so much more cruel to muslims and the muslims should know that
i would do things to muslims in sand land so horrific that muslims would surrender very fast
i would cause a mass exodus of muslims from kaffir lands as well
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Ron Swanson
Finally something I can agree with. Nice post one of the better ones I have seen so far.
Wish you the best.
get out of here, muslim faggot.
its against your religion to be here.
if i knew you personally i would snitch on you to the cops, plus throw rocks through your windows
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good point but....
atheists, jews, sikhs, buddhists, christians, muslims, mono-theists, gnostics, agnostics, hindus, pagans, animists, satanists, taoists, pantheists, shintoists, rastafarians & those of us who refrain ALL hate cunts like you.
if i knew you IRL i would never trust you, you're a grass/snitch so you can fuck right off.
i abhor violence but i'd pay good money to see cunts like you set on fire
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good point but....
atheists, jews, sikhs, buddhists, christians, muslims, mono-theists, gnostics, agnostics, hindus, pagans, animists, satanists, taoists, pantheists, shintoists, rastafarians & those of us who refrain ALL hate cunts like you.
if i knew you IRL i would never trust you, you're a grass/snitch so you can fuck right off.
i abhor violence but i'd pay good money to see cunts like you set on fire
I'd disagree with you on this one actually. If he genuinely feels threatened, let the police deal with it, it'll either be a minor inconvenience to his neighbours or they'll catch a terrorist who plan on attacking innocent people. Even I would inform police of terrorists since they do not share the same philosophy as we do on SR.
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Let me quote from a few words from DPR form the Silk Road home page
I'd like to take a moment to share with you what Silk Road is and how you can make the most of your time here. Let's start with the name. The original Silk Road was an old world trade network that connected Asia, Africa and Europe. It played a huge role in connecting the economies and cultures of these continents and promoted peace and prosperity through trade agreements. It is my hope that this modern Silk Road can do the same thing, by providing a framework for trading partners to come together for mutual gain in a safe and secure way.
So in go wiki historical Silk Road. It ran trough the Middle East. So an Muslim here would make some sense in historical context.
negativekarma: Please hate me all you want. May that hate never give rest.
I am not a terrorist nor do I ever plan an hurting innocent people. For as far the biggest terrorist has been the USA. Killing, bombing countless innocent people in recent history. Look at Iraq it was one the most developed and advanced country in the Middle East. No it complete devastated. Curtice of the USA air force.
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As a libertarian, i don't agree with the war in Iraq. I don't think it is Americas place to play "world police", i would prefer if Americas foreign policy was more non-interventionist.
That being said, Saddam Hussein was a ruthless dictator who used chemical weapons against his own people. Iraqis celebrated in the street when he was overthrown. Islamic governments tend to be very opressive and they give their people very few freedoms.
I doubt that America would have spent as much time bombing in the middle east and fighting wars had they not been attacked in NYC. It take two parties to fight a war, surely you can agree that there is blame that can be placed on both on America and the militant islamic fighters who commit acts of terror / jihad against western countries.
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Yes its true. But why are Islamic country oppressive? Because they are backed by the NWO.
And you are right about Saddam. It is a good thing he is out of power. But in the process of ''liberating'' Iraq the whole country was leveled. The US bombed not only military target but also libraries. The US bombed the libraries with chemicals that destroyed all the books. Iraq was one the most advance and power country in the middle. Now it is a third world country and there is still violence and the country is still not safe. I assume you are American do you think it was all worth it?
All the American soldier that died. And there died more then you news would admit.
And about the 9/11 well the people that decide to commits those act where also were reaction to the
American policies. If the Americans did not have any military bases in the Saudia Arabic and did not support Israel in its oppression of the Palestinians I almost sure. None of those thing would have happen.
Muslim are not at to fight those that do not fight them, but if the are being fought well then you would agree that everybody has the right to defend themselves. And some Muslim had the idea that they were being fought.
I sincerely hope that one day the world will liberated from the globalist and every country can decide there on fate and destiny with any out side intervention.
Wish you the best HS
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I think the islamic countries are oppressive because of shaira law, we have already covered how under islamic law women are not treated as equal to a man and have limited rights. Why would the NWO make the muslim governments the most oppressive in the world while allowing other governments to give their people relatively more freedom?
Yes, i am American. As i said in my previous post, no i don't think the cost of the war outweighs the benefits. I can understand why muslims would be angry about the war in their countries. About the bombing of libraries, i would suspect that military targets were moved to the libraries. If i was in charge of a country, and we were being attacked i would move valuable targets to libraries, mosques, schools, ect so when my enemy attacked i could point a finger and show how ruthless and brutal my attacker was. I really doubt the US was blowing up libraries just for the hell of it.
Getting back on the topic of this thread, the root of the violence is religion. The battles between the jews & muslims that you referenced have been going on for thousands of years, long before there was Israel or Palestine on any map. Christians attacked muslims in the crusades. Muslims frequently attack civilians in western countries in acts of terror / jihad.
Religion causes all kinds of violence and hatred. Children are brought up hating another religious group, regardless of what religion they follow. Ill leave you with this quote from Steven Weinberg,
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
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IIRC Saddam's regime was a secular one. I don't buy that wars such as Iraq are religiously motivated. America need to but out of everyone else's business and stop trying to stamp their authority on the globe. As for the oft quoted line above, couldn't you say that about anything that people believe in or disagree over?
"With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes politics/money/possessions/nations/tribes." Many otherwise 'good people' have done horrendous things in the name of patriotism for their country for example.
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I agree that iraq was wasn't 100% religiously motivated. I do remember plenty of news reports that suggested that iraq was harboring members of al-quida, and there was tons of fear mongering about radical islamic groups in iraq. I read about how christians in iraq were being persecuted by muslims. If nothting else, the islamic religious makeup of iraq was used to sell the war to the american public.
I agree that US shouldnt be "stamping their authority all over the globe" It's like a modern day version of manifest destiny.
Sure, the quote could be applied to anything people disagree over. I would say that the thing people disagree about the most is religion.
When was the last time you saw an atheist committing an atrocious act in this life to be rewarded in the next life?
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There are no evil people, only sick people[1]. Some of us are curable of the sickness of true evil, some are tragically not. We can be "born" sick, we can suddenly become sick, we can grow sick within a sick environment, we can teach ourselves to be sick, we can even teach others to be sick. Nonetheless, people who do evil are sick. Free will does not *exist*. You are a sentient natural automaton.
Free will is an EXTREMELY powerful illusion, as it is borne of that clever beast: ego. Severely limited will, however, does exist. When I observed this, I more clearly understood the shared responsibility we continue to deny as a species. We must be caretakers of our attention, it is simply all we have. Do not let it get the best of you. Love it and nurture it. Most of all, remember that it is writing the story of your life. With or without your input. The only way we can more reliably experience truth is to reliably put ourselves in a position to do so.
[1] don't take this too far. removing dangerous people from society is obviously necessary. now don't take THAT too far.
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I agree that iraq was wasn't 100% religiously motivated. I do remember plenty of news reports that suggested that iraq was harboring members of al-quida, and there was tons of fear mongering about radical islamic groups in iraq. I read about how christians in iraq were being persecuted by muslims. If nothting else, the islamic religious makeup of iraq was used to sell the war to the american public.
I agree that US shouldnt be "stamping their authority all over the globe" It's like a modern day version of manifest destiny.
Sure, the quote could be applied to anything people disagree over. I would say that the thing people disagree about the most is religion.
When was the last time you saw an atheist committing an atrocious act in this life to be rewarded in the next life?
I do see what you're getting at and wouldn't disagree a lot of terrible things have been done in the name of religion. One could also say many have committed atrocious acts in the belief there will be nothing in the next life, for arguments sake ;) There have also been a number of 'red terror' purges in Europe by atheist leftist militants against religious figures and groups, although of course these are far less common than religious violence. Then again atheism has been a minority belief throughout history so you'd expect a lower statistic.
I sympathise with anger with religious fanatics etc but I think it's incorrect to vilify any group or belief system as prone to causing violence, as most faiths are, of course, peace and compassion orientated.
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I agree that iraq was wasn't 100% religiously motivated. I do remember plenty of news reports that suggested that iraq was harboring members of al-quida, and there was tons of fear mongering about radical islamic groups in iraq. I read about how christians in iraq were being persecuted by muslims. If nothting else, the islamic religious makeup of iraq was used to sell the war to the american public.
I agree that US shouldnt be "stamping their authority all over the globe" It's like a modern day version of manifest destiny.
Sure, the quote could be applied to anything people disagree over. I would say that the thing people disagree about the most is religion.
When was the last time you saw an atheist committing an atrocious act in this life to be rewarded in the next life?
I do see what you're getting at and wouldn't disagree a lot of terrible things have been done in the name of religion. One could also say many have committed atrocious acts in the belief there will be nothing in the next life, for arguments sake ;) There have also been a number of 'red terror' purges in Europe by atheist leftist militants against religious figures and groups, although of course these are far less common than religious violence. Then again atheism has been a minority belief throughout history so you'd expect a lower statistic.
I sympathise with anger with religious fanatics etc but I think it's incorrect to vilify any group or belief system as prone to causing violence, as most faiths are, of course, peace and compassion orientated.
Not all atheists are reasonable. That atheists have committed atrocities is beside the point. We have to be fucking *reasonable*, which means we stop talking directly out of our asses on a MASSIVE scale. Stalin was an atheist. He was also clearly insane. Unreason spreads like a plague among already unreasonable people, and pretty much the only limit on its spread is the speed of communications. Which, here in 2013, should fucking scare you. As long as we're telling each other that it's okay to believe things that are CLEARLY untrue[1], humanity has a critical 0day security flaw being just crushingly exploited for ~10,000 years and counting.
[1] If your book claims to be the source of all truth, but you don't believe some things in that book, that book is not the source of all truth.
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IMO we should really stop 'arguing' about which 'truth' from 1500+ years ago IS 'appropriate in this day and age ... and start trying to deal with the 'truth' of the world's situation in 2013!
Surely we have enough issues to deal with in the here and now, without having to resort to these anachronistic teaching for material to debate?
Stuff like "why have we let the "elite's global capitalist agenda' control the western global economy?"
AND ... wtf we can DO to change/stop this selfishness!
IF nothing changes, NOTHING CHANGES ... and IMO things aren't "changing for the better" ... at least not the essential factors necessary for the people of the world to want to strive for a 'better' world in every way they can.
@jundillilahi ... you say to TTS,
"You only want to see what you want to see."
There is a great saying "point the finger and you have three pointing back" which is the same as trying to convince another they are 'wrong' so that you can say you are 'right' by default!
It's a pathetic argument, something a schoolkid might say ... IF you are using 'arguments' provided by 'others' ... you are only regurgitating stuff you have been "told" NOT what you HAVE PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED!
Why not tell us about YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES and 'how' this belief system HAS HELPED YOU to live a happier life as a better person?
From what I read here, it sounds like it wouldn't be to hard to get you to "pick up a sword in defense of Islam!"
Can't you see how you have ONLY 'maintained' your 'POV/opinions' ,, in this thread ... you haven't 'allowed' ANY of the other peoples opinions/pov's to sway your "opinion/pov" or make you reconsider your position .... even though many of the posters here HAVE replied to your questions about the topic and re-considered their pov's before replying to you!?
It's sad that there HAS BEEN SO MUCH posted here that SHOULD challenge your beliefs, rather than have you passionately defending them! It seems as if nothing ANYONE can say which could (not "might") change your opinion even the smallest bit. e.g. accepting the premise that Islam IS a 'sexist religion' in which women DO HAVE a backseat to men ONLY BECOZ the Q'uran "says so?"
This 'truth' is 'self evident' ... even you have posted about the Q'uran stating that women have a 'lesser place' than men! And this is just one part!
I'm not saying 'other religions' are any more 'reasonable' ... the Bible is full of sexist shit ... but few christians these days 'agree' with those parts of it. In fact it's this "selectivity" which is half the problem with most belief systems ... they'll take the parts they like and leave the rest...
e.g. I can't see how Sharia Law isn't oppressive' in MANY many ways! ... HOW can "laws" of so long ago be accepted as being appropriate in today's world?
EXACTLY the same question applies to christianity's refusal to even consider allowing the use of condoms, even when their use is not for birth control, but "disease control" ... how fuckin stupid and outdated can the 'head decision maker' (e.g. the Pope in this situation) Be?
Realistically,, he's NOT going to stop people having sex, so why not at least let them do it as safely as possible?
Not only would using condoms be a sensible idea as far as keeping his "children" safe/r ... but surely allowing these people to have some sort of control over whether or not they actually have children becoz they are having sex, would be preferable to seeing tens of thousands either starving or seeking employment as child soldiers just so they can eat?!
IDK why people cling to such ideas when it's SO clear we have much more pressing matters to attend to!
Interesting thread though, and a BIG thanks to everyone who contributed to it
we love you all
m m m motek
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Yes its true. But why are Islamic country oppressive? Because they are backed by the NWO.
And you are right about Saddam. It is a good thing he is out of power. But in the process of ''liberating'' Iraq the whole country was leveled. The US bombed not only military target but also libraries. The US bombed the libraries with chemicals that destroyed all the books. Iraq was one the most advance and power country in the middle. Now it is a third world country and there is still violence and the country is still not safe. I assume you are American do you think it was all worth it?
All the American soldier that died. And there died more then you news would admit.
And about the 9/11 well the people that decide to commits those act where also were reaction to the
American policies. If the Americans did not have any military bases in the Saudia Arabic and did not support Israel in its oppression of the Palestinians I almost sure. None of those thing would have happen.
Muslim are not at to fight those that do not fight them, but if the are being fought well then you would agree that everybody has the right to defend themselves. And some Muslim had the idea that they were being fought.
I sincerely hope that one day the world will liberated from the globalist and every country can decide there on fate and destiny with any out side intervention.
Wish you the best HS
your religion prohibits you from using drugs. what is your role here?
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never trust a muslim like jundullahi that prostitutes his religion on a drug forum. i wonder if he's a vendor
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I believe in God, but find myself at odds with, seemingly, most everyone else who does. I can't explain why I have the faith that I have so I won't try to. I am going to do DMT within the week, so who knows what I'll believe a week from now ;)
As for my political stance, I think gay people should be allowed to marry, abortion should be legal (yet scrutinized), drugs should be legalized, and immigration red tape should be removed. That should tell you what puts me at odds with most Christians, sadly. Anyway, I feel that anyone should be allowed to think and worship as they do or don't see fit. That's why a certain country in which I may or may not live was founded, IIRC.
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Let me quote from a few words from DPR form the Silk Road home page
I'd like to take a moment to share with you what Silk Road is and how you can make the most of your time here. Let's start with the name. The original Silk Road was an old world trade network that connected Asia, Africa and Europe. It played a huge role in connecting the economies and cultures of these continents and promoted peace and prosperity through trade agreements. It is my hope that this modern Silk Road can do the same thing, by providing a framework for trading partners to come together for mutual gain in a safe and secure way.
So in go wiki historical Silk Road. It ran trough the Middle East. So an Muslim here would make some sense in historical context.
negativekarma: Please hate me all you want. May that hate never give rest.
I am not a terrorist nor do I ever plan an hurting innocent people. For as far the biggest terrorist has been the USA. Killing, bombing countless innocent people in recent history. Look at Iraq it was one the most developed and advanced country in the Middle East. No it complete devastated. Curtice of the USA air force.
If you are a Muslim as you like to keep telling us oh-so-much why are you on a drug site and possibly buying drugs from here which is clearly haram?
Don't make sense, does it?
This thread is really one of those ones that I wish I could unsubscribe to because I'm fed up with you saying "I am a Muslim" because it clearly is the only thing that defines who you are. Boring.
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When did this become just a drug site?
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When did this become just a drug site?
Since last Tuesday.
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When did this become just a drug site?
Since last Tuesday.
lol
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it may be noted that i never mentioned the haram-ness of his being here as i didnt wish to scare him away.
there are nuggets of wisdom in that guy and just cos hes a religious fuc-knut doesn't disclude(isthatawurd?)him from discussions.
especially in the god/religious views thread....
for all we know, comments here may send him or the guy/s he confides in over the edge
we do not need more 'holy' bloodshed
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Hi verdant one Glad to hear you like what we had to say, it's always nice to hear others agree with ones opinions.
lol in fact I think that's pretty much what jundallilahi was hoping to see more of!:o) coz it's far easier to believe your won bullshit, when people support you!
Not that I think I'm talking shit! nooo faaar from it! This stuff holds a place close to my ... everythings!
It saddens me greatly to see so many people with completely 'unfounded beliefs' in ANY thing be it a religions dogmatic bullshit OR ANYONE over 12yo that even uses (let alone 'profit' from it/him/it) the word "belieber" ugh! The general crap and propaganda the media stuffs into our lives whatever way they can combined with our propensity to watch tv's, whether anything worth watching is on or not that gives TPTB the upper hand in influence!
When ANYone comes to "know" something that is provably 'untrue' from being 'taught' these things as 'facts' e.g. the planet earth and all the things on/in it were made in 7days by 'god' ... well, it wasn't, and if you want to 'believe' in the technology which makes your computer work, then you are strangely biased if you 'don't believe' in evolution, it's the 'same science' which makes both 'work', and it's the same science which applies to ALL humans who try to use it (exceept for quantum physics which is a very trippy place to go, so we wont, coz everything would be right, but then it wouldn't be right as well, yeah like I said, we wont go there! lol)
teaching children to blindly agree with and believe their parents opinions should be against our principles almost like pedo's are and we should encourage all kids to think outside the box with everyone's interests in mind.
IF we were to raise our kids with the 'belief' that helping others IS one of the BEST things they CAN DO .... just try and imagine a world where people REALLY DID CARE about one another! Until this worlds whole population is housed fed and educated we are fucked! So I guess we are fucked! I just hate they 'way' things are going to pan out.Sadly this world wont come into being overnight BUT it's this 'attitude' that would get it to where it was possible to have some basic faith in your unknown neighbour "just becoz" he was there! I know that as I get older I see the 'broken' sides of so many people, and this too makes me feel for all the desolation in peoples hearts all over yearning for a change...how could this one hurt? Couldn't be worse!
The self appointed 'caretakers of the planet' are an extraordinary group of people garnered from the children of the "elite" and groomed for a lifetime of 'service' to 'the world' that their 'families' RUN! This position came out of these people's beliefs that as only the fittest survived, they were the 'best of the best' and obviously 'naturally selected! to 'control' the 'masses who could not control themselves'' !!!
These people have believed this for a looong time but we can safely say that it's been in the last 150yrs that they's really achieved their goals of "World Domination" sheesh! just take a look around you to see how far they've come, especially in the past 70yrs! It's truly fuckin scary!
Have a look at this document, I 'believe' it's the real thing. The way it is written (as if by a sociopath with absolutely NO feelings for others!) and the detail it goes into are clearly the product of a LOT of thought, but worse still is that this document is "celebrating"! the 25th anninversary of the introduction of this plan/scheme for total control
AND THE WORST PART... is that today we sit sixty something years down the track, and we CAN look back with 20/20 hindsight.....and what you CAN CLEARLY SEE is that they have succeeded with their plans!
I present you The Plan they made for your life! Sillent Weapons for Quiet Wars....
"War is merely the act of destroying the creditor, and the politicians are the publicly hired hit men that justify the act to keep the responsibility and blood off the public conscience.
The silent weapon is a type of biological warfare. It attacks the vitality, options and mobility of the individuals of a society."
http://www.whale.to/b/silentweapon.html **clearnet** but you can go there using ToR no probs.
I think I'll leave it at that...to those of you who do take the time to read over that document (it'll take about 1-2hrs) prepare to have your minds blown as you truly realize just how planned EVERYTHING was, wars, presidents, countries everything! The thing is they never predicted the internet and it has come back to bite them on the bum coz it 'does' exactly what they do not want, information being shared especially if that information is correct OR useful or even worse, both! The internet has done more in the last 20 years to 'free' people than most people have ANY idea!
What we ARE DOING here IS EXACTLY what they have always feared, the people becoming 'independent' of them, and becoming unaffected by their propaganda.
IDK if you have 'noticed' but the financial shit we see on the tv every day, you know USD prices vs everyone else etc....that never happened 30 years ago, shit not even 20years ago were they peddling that shit like they do today. And as for the insurance companies trading on peoples FUD is completely fucked up. We iz living in one FU world friends!
Again the 'problem' is really the 'sheeple', All the people who 'blindly believed' George W when he said "drugs are bad, the terrorists did it, we reckon lots of muslims are into terrorism soooo, we'ze gonna git em! And git em good, and when we've got em we'll get us some more!
"And when THEY"RE gone, we'll git us a whole NEW enemy, yessir on the MOON! Yeah thassaright on the god damn motherfuckin moon! We've been keepin those grey babies on ice until we REALLY needed them to 'rally the troops' so to speak! Pretty neat huh?"
There's an old chinese curse that says something like "may you live in interesting times" ... i.e. when everything's changing all the time and you have no peace becoz of it!
Hope that was fun for some
love you all
m m m motek x
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The coming of the Prophet Muhammed was prophesied in every scripture/revelation.
But that is an other subject.
Yes I believe that the Quran is a Revelation for Allah. Send down too a illiterate man.
And the Quran is the highest form of Arabic literature unsurpassed till this day.
It posses a challenge to write something similar that has stood uncontested for 1400 years.
Should make you wonder how an illiterate man wrote such a book
It was not written by an illiterate man and was written by a bunch of sycophants and sexist pigs designed to exploit and enslave the masses of people. You are in the wrong place to be spreading comments like thatsince Muslims aren't even supposed to consume alcohol and it is a plagiarized from earlier works and he was nothing more than an epileptic with an over active pineal.
Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.
Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish. Picture all experts as if they were mammals. Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence. Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.
We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid.
The Bible and Quran may, indeed do, contain a warrant for trafficking in humans, for ethnic cleansing, for slavery, for bride-price, and for indiscriminate massacre, but we are not bound by any of it because it was put together by crude, uncultured human mammals.
One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody—not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms—had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think—though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one—that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.
Violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children: organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience.
Nothing optional—from homosexuality to adultery (or taking drugs that alter the mind)—is ever made punishable unless those who do the prohibiting (and exact the fierce punishments) have a repressed desire to participate. As Shakespeare put it in King Lear, the policeman who lashes the whore has a hot need to use her for the very offense for which he plies the lash.
I suppose that one reason I have always detested religion is its sly tendency to insinuate the idea that the universe is designed with 'you' in mind or, even worse, that there is a divine plan into which one fits whether one knows it or not. This kind of modesty is too arrogant for me.
The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks. Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
To terrify children with the image of hell, to consider women an inferior creation—is that good for the world?
Everybody does have a book in them, but in most cases that's where it should stay. The world would be a better place and our species at the very least 1000yrs ahead of where we are at present if it weren't for religions.
Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are gods.
Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.
Alcohol makes other people less tedious, and food less bland, and can help provide what the Greeks called entheos, or the slight buzz of inspiration when reading or writing. The only worthwhile miracle in the New Testament—the transmutation of water into wine during the wedding at Cana—is a tribute to the persistence of Hellenism in an otherwise austere Judaea. The same applies to the seder at Passover, which is obviously modeled on the Platonic symposium: questions are asked (especially of the young) while wine is circulated. No better form of sodality has ever been devised: at Oxford one was positively expected to take wine during tutorials. The tongue must be untied. It's not a coincidence that Omar Khayyam, rebuking and ridiculing the stone-faced Iranian mullahs of his time, pointed to the value of the grape as a mockery of their joyless and sterile regime. Visiting today's Iran, I was delighted to find that citizens made a point of defying the clerical ban on booze, keeping it in their homes for visitors even if they didn't particularly take to it themselves, and bootlegging it with great brio and ingenuity. These small revolutions affirm the human.
IF you believe the nonsensicle backward belief system of the Quran or any other idea or concept that insults everything from modern physics to commons sense then I suggest you move to Iran and help to re-establish the Caliphate of the past and line up ready to be shot because Islam is not compatible with modern society and human decency and above all FREEEEDOM!
- JWM 8)
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Religion is fine as long as it is not brought into science, politics or forced onto children who don't have a choice to say no.
It is complete bullshit that religion is a nice way to teach good moral principles. If that were true, then why are most of the murders and other crimes in the USA committed by Christians while atheists remain lowest in all stats? - You can have awesome moral values without being a single bit religious.
The thing that god brings comfort and motivation might be true to some point, but in the end it's really you who decide about your life. Not god.
Only you can make a change. If everyone just quit praying and started acting we'd a have a delightful fucking planet to live.
Religion even today is still the fuel of wars and is slowing down the advancement of many 3rd world countries, but also the Western world (maybe not as much) and middle east. The Syrian conflict is essentially a holy war where the FSA wants to implement Sharia law on Syria. Funny how Assad is being painted a tyrant, while CIA's statistics show that 75% of Syrians would vote for him in the next election. Soon 100k people have lost their lives for what? - The good loving god Allah.
I myself are forced to be agnostic. I can't disproof something there is no scientific proof of. I can't disproof fairies either, so I am forced to leave a small (like really fucking small) probability for their existence (pretty much as high percent as I do give for god's existence).
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wheres that muslim jundullahi gone? whats he doing on a drug forum when allah says associating with drugs and users is haram?
sure cvutting off heads, making gore guts videos of the rsult is fine for allah, but i think allah is dogshit.. and im the boss of him (both the profit aka the $profit$, allah and this stupid muslim guy on the forums) right now.
so your god you dont answer too, but you will answer to me bitch like apache 30mm rounds answer your mahujadeen.. what thee fuck are you doing here? get the fuck out of here. your religion forbids it ... get the fuck out of here.
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I stopped believing in religion when I was writing and I just wrote this. I'll share it with you. Perhaps it would make sense to a lot of people and they'll see where I'm coming from
If it should ever happen in your lifetime that you observe a fact for yourself that directly contradicts what authorities have taught you for life; you must then abandon any such authority and hold your self evidenced facts to be true, until such a time that they be disproved
I think that main crux here is everyone is expressing their opinion about their feelings towards religion whereas jundullahi is trying to make us see that Islam is the ONLY religion. I think that's why he's getting so much attention.
He has a right to express his opinion of course. I respect Islam because of.....
And that's great. I have many friends from all religions. I never tell them there religion is bullshit though and try to convert them to MY beliefs. You're trying to do that jundullahi. Don't be a priest. Or one of them religious recruiters.
Accept that the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Jesus, Allah are all great MORAL stories, but at the end of the day they are just stories and you shouldn't be trying to make your case on what's written in your religious books. That's the whole reason why there's religious wars......if you want to make a point think about it this way, if you were in a court of law and presented that point would a judge with an OBJECTIVE point of view understand the validity of your argument? If not, then that is a SUBJECTIVE opinion and you should not force other people to think like that, although you are by all means free to still express is
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@JesuWazaMushroom.....fantastic post friend, very thoughtful and eloquent. I wish it were mine! lol
@TouchTheSky...Yes!
@mrmdma ... cool
@negkarma...GTFOOH!
Love m m m motek x
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The coming of the Prophet Muhammed was prophesied in every scripture/revelation.
But that is an other subject.
Yes I believe that the Quran is a Revelation for Allah. Send down too a illiterate man.
And the Quran is the highest form of Arabic literature unsurpassed till this day.
It posses a challenge to write something similar that has stood uncontested for 1400 years.
Should make you wonder how an illiterate man wrote such a book
It was not written by an illiterate man and was written by a bunch of sycophants and sexist pigs designed to exploit and enslave the masses of people. You are in the wrong place to be spreading comments like thatsince Muslims aren't even supposed to consume alcohol and it is a plagiarized from earlier works and he was nothing more than an epileptic with an over active pineal.
Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.
Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish. Picture all experts as if they were mammals. Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence. Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.
We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid.
The Bible and Quran may, indeed do, contain a warrant for trafficking in humans, for ethnic cleansing, for slavery, for bride-price, and for indiscriminate massacre, but we are not bound by any of it because it was put together by crude, uncultured human mammals.
One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody—not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms—had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think—though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one—that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.
Violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children: organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience.
Nothing optional—from homosexuality to adultery (or taking drugs that alter the mind)—is ever made punishable unless those who do the prohibiting (and exact the fierce punishments) have a repressed desire to participate. As Shakespeare put it in King Lear, the policeman who lashes the whore has a hot need to use her for the very offense for which he plies the lash.
I suppose that one reason I have always detested religion is its sly tendency to insinuate the idea that the universe is designed with 'you' in mind or, even worse, that there is a divine plan into which one fits whether one knows it or not. This kind of modesty is too arrogant for me.
The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks. Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
To terrify children with the image of hell, to consider women an inferior creation—is that good for the world?
Everybody does have a book in them, but in most cases that's where it should stay. The world would be a better place and our species at the very least 1000yrs ahead of where we are at present if it weren't for religions.
Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are gods.
Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.
Alcohol makes other people less tedious, and food less bland, and can help provide what the Greeks called entheos, or the slight buzz of inspiration when reading or writing. The only worthwhile miracle in the New Testament—the transmutation of water into wine during the wedding at Cana—is a tribute to the persistence of Hellenism in an otherwise austere Judaea. The same applies to the seder at Passover, which is obviously modeled on the Platonic symposium: questions are asked (especially of the young) while wine is circulated. No better form of sodality has ever been devised: at Oxford one was positively expected to take wine during tutorials. The tongue must be untied. It's not a coincidence that Omar Khayyam, rebuking and ridiculing the stone-faced Iranian mullahs of his time, pointed to the value of the grape as a mockery of their joyless and sterile regime. Visiting today's Iran, I was delighted to find that citizens made a point of defying the clerical ban on booze, keeping it in their homes for visitors even if they didn't particularly take to it themselves, and bootlegging it with great brio and ingenuity. These small revolutions affirm the human.
IF you believe the nonsensicle backward belief system of the Quran or any other idea or concept that insults everything from modern physics to commons sense then I suggest you move to Iran and help to re-establish the Caliphate of the past and line up ready to be shot because Islam is not compatible with modern society and human decency and above all FREEEEDOM!
- JWM 8)
Dude, that post was fantastic +1
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seriously!
i wish i could compose myself that eloquently!
i THINK like that but when i start writing or typing i end up abbreviating and shortening it until it sounds like a bunch of one line rants.
+1 mate!
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The coming of the Prophet Muhammed was prophesied in every scripture/revelation.
But that is an other subject.
Yes I believe that the Quran is a Revelation for Allah. Send down too a illiterate man.
And the Quran is the highest form of Arabic literature unsurpassed till this day.
It posses a challenge to write something similar that has stood uncontested for 1400 years.
Should make you wonder how an illiterate man wrote such a book
It was not written by an illiterate man and was written by a bunch of sycophants and sexist pigs designed to exploit and enslave the masses of people. You are in the wrong place to be spreading comments like thatsince Muslims aren't even supposed to consume alcohol and it is a plagiarized from earlier works and he was nothing more than an epileptic with an over active pineal.
Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.
Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish. Picture all experts as if they were mammals. Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence. Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.
We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid.
The Bible and Quran may, indeed do, contain a warrant for trafficking in humans, for ethnic cleansing, for slavery, for bride-price, and for indiscriminate massacre, but we are not bound by any of it because it was put together by crude, uncultured human mammals.
One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody—not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms—had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think—though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one—that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.
Violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children: organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience.
Nothing optional—from homosexuality to adultery (or taking drugs that alter the mind)—is ever made punishable unless those who do the prohibiting (and exact the fierce punishments) have a repressed desire to participate. As Shakespeare put it in King Lear, the policeman who lashes the whore has a hot need to use her for the very offense for which he plies the lash.
I suppose that one reason I have always detested religion is its sly tendency to insinuate the idea that the universe is designed with 'you' in mind or, even worse, that there is a divine plan into which one fits whether one knows it or not. This kind of modesty is too arrogant for me.
The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks. Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
To terrify children with the image of hell, to consider women an inferior creation—is that good for the world?
Everybody does have a book in them, but in most cases that's where it should stay. The world would be a better place and our species at the very least 1000yrs ahead of where we are at present if it weren't for religions.
Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are gods.
Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.
Alcohol makes other people less tedious, and food less bland, and can help provide what the Greeks called entheos, or the slight buzz of inspiration when reading or writing. The only worthwhile miracle in the New Testament—the transmutation of water into wine during the wedding at Cana—is a tribute to the persistence of Hellenism in an otherwise austere Judaea. The same applies to the seder at Passover, which is obviously modeled on the Platonic symposium: questions are asked (especially of the young) while wine is circulated. No better form of sodality has ever been devised: at Oxford one was positively expected to take wine during tutorials. The tongue must be untied. It's not a coincidence that Omar Khayyam, rebuking and ridiculing the stone-faced Iranian mullahs of his time, pointed to the value of the grape as a mockery of their joyless and sterile regime. Visiting today's Iran, I was delighted to find that citizens made a point of defying the clerical ban on booze, keeping it in their homes for visitors even if they didn't particularly take to it themselves, and bootlegging it with great brio and ingenuity. These small revolutions affirm the human.
IF you believe the nonsensicle backward belief system of the Quran or any other idea or concept that insults everything from modern physics to commons sense then I suggest you move to Iran and help to re-establish the Caliphate of the past and line up ready to be shot because Islam is not compatible with modern society and human decency and above all FREEEEDOM!
- JWM 8)
Dude, that post was fantastic +1
I wish people took this kind of effort and eloquence to write positive messages instead of hate!
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my first +1 goes on this forum goes to you JWM!
you can see truth resonating from your post. or maybe its just the 'cid
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I'm glad you liked it folks, its my point of view and if anyone ever asks you why you're an atheist refer them to this and say here's why.
If you want a great YouTube channel on the subject please take the time to look up Darkmatter2525 his cartoon's are absolute genius and for further atheist entertainment I recommend Aaron Ra and also The Atheist Experience also.
Peace - JWM
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Holding religious views is arguably comparable to having mental issues.
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I'm a pragmatic - for me it doesn't matter what one believes in, what matters is how you act, when you say I believe in democracy and kill those who doesn't agree with you then it's the actions that matter not the words. That's why fighting atheists and fighting evangelists are the same breed, their beliefs are blind, their scriptures are dull and their mania grandiosa needs medical attention. One can like a certain football club and the other another, but if they behave exactly the same, there's no real difference :D
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There is definetly a diffrence between the various religiouns and what the practice.
Simple examply. Christian believe Jesus is god son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus is a prophet of God.
Hindus believe everything is god. Muslim believe everything is God's
PS For a non muslim living in a Islamic state ruled by sharia would be much beter than for a muslim living in a western would.
Why? because if you as a non muslim (dimmi) living in a Islamic state you would be living under muslim protection.
You would be able to keep all you customs and believe and in time of war would not be could upon to fight and defend to state.
A muslim living in an western world would be called upon in time of war to fight. Even his own country.
So for all those that made remarkes on this subject eat something bitter.
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There is definetly a diffrence between the various religiouns and what the practice.
Simple examply. Christian believe Jesus is god son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus is a prophet of God.
Hindus believe everything is god. Muslim believe everything is God's
PS For a non muslim living in a Islamic state ruled by sharia would be much beter than for a muslim living in a western would.
Why? because if you as a non muslim (dimmi) living in a Islamic state you would be living under muslim protection.
You would be able to keep all you customs and believe and in time of war would not be could upon to fight and defend to state.
A muslim living in an western world would be called upon in time of war to fight. Even his own country.
So for all those that made remarkes on this subject eat something bitter.
The way Muslims carry out their faith here today in the modern world completely contradicts your claims here. For example, look at the dangerous circumstances Ayaan Hirsi Ali has to deal with every single day of her life. Not to mention those who are brave enough to associate with her on a daily basis. What do you have to say about the Muslims (some imams, even) that rabidly advocate for her violent death at the hands of a Muslim?
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In some cases it very easy and even appropriate.
Every society has its law and punishment for curtian crimes.
Lets take for example. These two treason and the insulting of an important person for a community.
In a lot of countries treason to the state is punished with death. Well if some one leave the fold of Islam the punishment is death.
About insulting a public figure, for example in the Netherlands if you insult the queen or king you get a fine.
In Islam if you insult the Prophet the punishment is death.
By the way. Most human right in the UN charter for human right have been established by the Islam centuries before.
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we are all One, we are God together. many perceptions, One observer.
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firslt, jundullahi you need to work on your trolling skills. you lack in the knowledge and seem to be stuck in valhalla.
Secondly the MAIN reason I came on here. Just to say this
"God's on your side? Shit I'm aite with that. Cause we gonna reload them clips and come right back. it's a fact homie. you go against me you're fucked......" - 50 cent
if you really exist god, strike jundullahi with all your might. see he won't. but same thing I post your shit on 4chan about your shitty trolling. I'd give it about 2 weeks before you're DOX'd. FULL SICK ULEH
ITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT RUINED 4CHAN IN THE FIRST PLACE jundullahi. LEARN THE ART OR GTFO
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My dear touchthesky.
I think you misunderstood my point.
First I do not really understand to concept of trolling. I understand that that is a bad thing. So I would never intentionally troll.
Yes I believe God is on my side. Because God says in the Quran. God is with the believers. But any way.
I dont even know what 4chan is all about. Maybe you can enlighten me. Please explain how I ruined 4chan?
God would strike my if you supplication is sincere. But you say that if you God exist.
That means you do not believe that God exist. So why should He respond to your supplication if you doubt his existence.
Look I dont want a conflict nor any trouble with you if I offended you in any way then please forgive my.
Do you believe in freedom of speech? Well if so then just as you I have a right to expresses my opinions.
And just because you dont agree with my opinion it those not mean I have no right t express mine.
In the end I just fail to understand your resentment. I am sure we can work out ore differences as civilized men.
I also do not understand why you find it necessary to threaten.
Look man in the end I wish only the best for all people. Also for you.
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I have read from both eastern and western books of thought on religion and all of them seem like they are not real. The eastern religions at least are more in line with what I kind of think though.
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There is no evidence sufficient to prove that there is or there is not a god or gods. However, there is a great deal of evidence about how the universe works. This strongly suggests that there is a natural basis for reality. We're getting closer to understanding it every day. There is no evidence to support an intelligent/supernatural force in anything we experience.
Thus, given this information, for me it would be unreasonable (ahem) to believe that there is a god or gods.
However I also believe that there is a lot of evidence to suggest that our reality is connected, a single whole system. This perspective then means that mankind is part of a much larger thing in a literal sense. Couple that with the law of conservation of energy, that stipulates that energy can ever be destroyed, it can only change, and I think you have a compelling argument for a Buddhistic world view.
Pretty much where I'm at.
By the way, I really don't characterize the core tenets of Buddhism as a religion. How can it be when it denys the existence of any gods? No gods, no religion.
Also, I think religion is dangerous to humanity. Any system of thought that compells people to disregard facts, and embrace ideas that cannot be supported logically opens the door to all manner of true evil.
If you can be convinced that your god is best, so can someone else. It only takes a while before someone in your group convinces everyone that he's tight with god (if you believe in god, how can you not be expected to be able to believe this), and that god told him that those other people need to go.
R.
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However I also believe that there is a lot of evidence to suggest that our reality is connected, a single whole system. This perspective then means that mankind is part of a much larger thing in a literal sense. Couple that with the law of conservation of energy, that stipulates that energy can ever be destroyed, it can only change, and I think you have a compelling argument for a Buddhistic world view.
R.
If you accept that we are intelligent, and also part of the whole, then surely the universe/the whole itself is intelligent, and could be seen as god? We all work in symbols and religions are one of these symbols we use to share our experiences. My tuppence worth anywa.
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If you accept that we are intelligent, and also part of the whole, then surely the universe/the whole itself is intelligent, and could be seen as god? We all work in symbols and religions are one of these symbols we use to share our experiences. My tuppence worth anywa.
An interesting thought, and difficult to argue. I'd have to agree, that the universe then is intelligent, and when we build things purposefully, then so does the universe.
Sounds a little like this...
"A mighty god is a living man."
Bob Marley
:-)
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Born and raised Catholic.
Yes, my denomination has some flaws, but it is my genuine belief that God does exist.
No, I don't want to argue about it, but I do try to respect other religions and not push mine on others.
One of my main questions to atheists would be: Where do you/your soul/spirit go when you die?
Not looking to incite an argument, merely stating my faith to add to the variety here. :-)
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Born and raised Catholic, i started getting into history and politics at a young age which totally debunked it historically etc, then i realized all religion was a negative impact on the world and society and anyone who believes in it is limited and i just cannot take to someone who believes in a man in the sky, its ignorance really, which is sad for mankind,
I personally excommunicated myself from the church records officially and consider myself an anti theist, i believe its a hindrance to all mankind, the only way people will be truly free is to know the truth about ourselves, we're Animals.
Read the origin of species!
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Born and raised Catholic.
Yes, my denomination has some flaws, but it is my genuine belief that God does exist.
No, I don't want to argue about it, but I do try to respect other religions and not push mine on others.
One of my main questions to atheists would be: Where do you/your soul/spirit go when you die?
Not looking to incite an argument, merely stating my faith to add to the variety here. :-)
What I believe is that I don't have a soul or a spirit. My consciousness and who I am is simply the result of neurons binding in a very specific way. That specific and unique net of neural pathways has been carved for all my lifetime. Some parts of that net have been strengthened more than other parts due to the things I have experienced during my life and that is what makes me different from the guy sitting next to me in the bus.
I believe that when we die, we cease to think, feel or perceive anything. It's like being shutdown into a senseless coma.
Your soul of spirit does not go anywhere because you don't have one. The energy stored in your body as chemical energy (molecule bonds) is released back to the biosphere and is possibly reused as building material for other lifeforms.
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I have been a theo-slut for many a year now. It amazes me how much most of them agree on. Including the part where non-believers can justifiably be abused by believers.