Silk Road forums

Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: sausage and mash on October 17, 2012, 04:50 pm

Title: Guilty by association?
Post by: sausage and mash on October 17, 2012, 04:50 pm
Hello all, after a spot of afternoon tea with several friends and associates we stumbled onto the discussion of responsibility, more specifically the morality of working for an arms manufacturer.
I also thinks this kind of ties in with the thread about payback for those fighting in the war on drugs, or doesn't I'm not sure.
Basically the question we discussed is if you work for an arms manufacturer say BAE systems, no matter what position or level (executive - production line hand) you are effectively saying you agree with the killing of another human for gain, now there are lots of industries both illegal and legal that participate in the killing of people for profit but we chose this as its a world wide legal business that is financed by some of the worlds oldest and "friendly" institutions, (many of us use banks that have billion £/$ shares in these cooperation) and in its machine are blue collar workers who would no more shoot someone in the face than drop a depleted uranium tipped shell on a village, but they continue to work and assemble these weapons.

Do we believe that all those in the chain are as guilty as the leader that oks the use of the weapons, if there is a maker/god/big guy will he judge you on this or will it be a case of 'alright son, you had to feed your family'.

Also as this is my 100th post I'm going to issuing karma hard until the novelty wares off, assuming people reply that is....
Title: <removed>
Post by: StExo on October 17, 2012, 05:26 pm
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Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: doublemint on October 17, 2012, 05:29 pm
Hello all, after a spot of afternoon tea with several friends and associates we stumbled onto the discussion of responsibility, more specifically the morality of working for an arms manufacturer.
I also thinks this kind of ties in with the thread about payback for those fighting in the war on drugs, or doesn't I'm not sure.
Basically the question we discussed is if you work for an arms manufacturer say BAE systems, no matter what position or level (executive - production line hand) you are effectively saying you agree with the killing of another human for gain, now there are lots of industries both illegal and legal that participate in the killing of people for profit but we chose this as its a world wide legal business that is financed by some of the worlds oldest and "friendly" institutions, (many of us use banks that have billion £/$ shares in these cooperation) and in its machine are blue collar workers who would no more shoot someone in the face than drop a depleted uranium tipped shell on a village, but they continue to work and assemble these weapons.

Do we believe that all those in the chain are as guilty as the leader that oks the use of the weapons, if there is a maker/god/big guy will he judge you on this or will it be a case of 'alright son, you had to feed your family'.

Also as this is my 100th post I'm going to issuing karma hard until the novelty wares off, assuming people reply that is....
People kill. Guns don't do anything.
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: sausage and mash on October 17, 2012, 05:58 pm
I don't think many of them even believe what they are doing is wrong, they hide under the veil of national security and defensive measures since it's only the governments who can really afford half the stuff BAE produces.

In the whole i think your right, ignorance is bliss for the masses anyway but it still doesn't retract from the fact that those otherwise law abiding citizens are willingly developing and building weapons with the sole purpose of killing people, that must whisper in your brain just before you go to sleep.


Guns do do things, i have a friend who dropped his shotgun on the ground, shot him in the leg, funny now, bit scary at the time BUT the point is there was no finger on the trigger, completely down to the gun.
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Post by: StExo on October 17, 2012, 11:09 pm
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Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: herpiusderpius on October 17, 2012, 11:28 pm
No. The people who took the action that caused harm bear full responsibility, not those people who built the tool used in the crime. The majority of the world's population is not wealthy enough to have the luxury of "voting with their labor" in various companies and industries about policy decisions above their paygrade. To say a worker at a firearm factory is morally wrong in doing his job to provide for his family because of how the product he makes is used would be illogical.
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Post by: StExo on October 18, 2012, 12:05 am
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Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: pinky2011 on October 18, 2012, 12:07 am
Interesting post... I've thought about this quite a bit. For a living I sell (let's be generic for relative anonymity) military electronics that are used primarily on sea-going vessels. BAE may even be one of my customers (who knows?!). I am vehemently Libertarian and anti unjust war. So you see... this kind of creates this odd personal philosophical dilemma for me. I mean how many people in the world can look at the news when the US or one of her allies fires a bad tomahawk missile into a crowded middle eastern hospital or apartment complex and say, "I could have very easily had a hand in that." Without me and people like me, there would be no switch to flip... there would be no targeting interface... there would be no missile... And those people wouldn't be dead. I came to the conclusion that there is no guilt if there are no true morals. There are only the victors in society and those who have been vanquished. The strong create the rules and decide what is moral. If this is the case and morality is subjective... how can there be guilt? You are only as guilty as the set of morals **you believe are true** say you are.
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: Moldybread on October 18, 2012, 12:14 am
So if i give a hydrogen bomb to the Taliban that is used to destroy LA and kill 4 million americans im in no way guilty of anything? Strange logic.
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Post by: StExo on October 18, 2012, 12:30 am
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Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: pinky2011 on October 18, 2012, 01:02 am
So if i give a hydrogen bomb to the Taliban that is used to destroy LA and kill 4 million americans im in no way guilty of anything? Strange logic.

Our society would say you are guilty, but in the grand scheme of things, is there some over-arching authority that deems you, Moldybread guilty? No.... One society's crime is another society's good deed. The only way there could be some true form of guilt because of wrong doing is if there is some omniscient omnipotent being that knows the truth. This is the only way true guilt can exist. Even if it does... somewhere out there... I don't pretend to know what it is. All I know are the rules in the society where I function.

If I said you were truly guilty for selling a nuclear weapon to a terrorist who would use it to wipe out New York, I would be operating under the assumption that my code of morals is correct and yours/the terrorists' morals are incorrect. Do I agree with them? Hell no... Does that mean I know I'm right? Nope.
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: FoxyTorGirl on October 18, 2012, 01:27 am
So if i give a hydrogen bomb to the Taliban that is used to destroy LA and kill 4 million americans im in no way guilty of anything? Strange logic.

That's like giving them a loaded weapon. Giving a group you know is trying to use it like that isn't the same as what I outlined above. If you sold aluminium to the US is that wrong too because that aluminium may be used to make bombs? A hydrogen bomb is on a whole new scale and this isn't a 1 size fits all solution, you have to base each case on its own merits and the example you gave is pretty poor attempt to explain logic as you've heavily misinterpreted my wording. Hence my phrase "it simply depends on the intentions of the user".

Aluminium, hammers, and other tools that CAN be used for murder are different from bombs and guns, whose SOLE purpose is to murder...
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: FoxyTorGirl on October 18, 2012, 01:35 am
So if i give a hydrogen bomb to the Taliban that is used to destroy LA and kill 4 million americans im in no way guilty of anything? Strange logic.

Our society would say you are guilty, but in the grand scheme of things, is there some over-arching authority that deems you, Moldybread guilty? No.... One society's crime is another society's good deed. The only way there could be some true form of guilt because of wrong doing is if there is some omniscient omnipotent being that knows the truth. This is the only way true guilt can exist. Even if it does... somewhere out there... I don't pretend to know what it is. All I know are the rules in the society where I function.

If I said you were truly guilty for selling a nuclear weapon to a terrorist who would use it to wipe out New York, I would be operating under the assumption that my code of morals is correct and yours/the terrorists' morals are incorrect. Do I agree with them? Hell no... Does that mean I know I'm right? Nope.

While I do agree with you,  when two armies fight and one leaves victorious and the other defeated, when they come home and tell stories, the Victors tell of hoards of angels that came from the sky to help them destroy the other army. the Defeated tell a story of Demons rising from the depths of hell and killing everything on their ways (not my own image, I think Russells, but I am not sure)..

Still I think the question here is not whether people feel pride for their country and the goals it accomplishes, but whether can a person sleep at night knowing of the way those goals were accomplished...
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: pinky2011 on October 18, 2012, 02:09 am
So if i give a hydrogen bomb to the Taliban that is used to destroy LA and kill 4 million americans im in no way guilty of anything? Strange logic.

Our society would say you are guilty, but in the grand scheme of things, is there some over-arching authority that deems you, Moldybread guilty? No.... One society's crime is another society's good deed. The only way there could be some true form of guilt because of wrong doing is if there is some omniscient omnipotent being that knows the truth. This is the only way true guilt can exist. Even if it does... somewhere out there... I don't pretend to know what it is. All I know are the rules in the society where I function.

If I said you were truly guilty for selling a nuclear weapon to a terrorist who would use it to wipe out New York, I would be operating under the assumption that my code of morals is correct and yours/the terrorists' morals are incorrect. Do I agree with them? Hell no... Does that mean I know I'm right? Nope.

While I do agree with you,  when two armies fight and one leaves victorious and the other defeated, when they come home and tell stories, the Victors tell of hoards of angels that came from the sky to help them destroy the other army. the Defeated tell a story of Demons rising from the depths of hell and killing everything on their ways (not my own image, I think Russells, but I am not sure)..

Still I think the question here is not whether people feel pride for their country and the goals it accomplishes, but whether can a person sleep at night knowing of the way those goals were accomplished...

If the measure by which we attribute guilt is purely one's own conscience then that makes the issue even murkier. There are plenty of people in this world who do things that most "normal" people would never dream of, then go home with a clean conscience. Not to mention why do we feel the way we do about our actions? Why would we not be able to sleep at night? I think it is purely because we have been conditioned by our society to view certain things as right/wrong. If you put a gun to someone's head and pulled the trigger because he was a competitor at work for a promotion, you'd probably feel pretty ripped up after... you may not sleep 'cuz of it... you may have nightmares, whatever... But if we were living hundreds/thousands of years ago and you killed the same man because he was competition for food or a woman... You wouldn't bat an eye.
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: Red Flag on October 18, 2012, 02:37 am
Im guilty by association
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: FoxyTorGirl on October 18, 2012, 02:39 am
So if i give a hydrogen bomb to the Taliban that is used to destroy LA and kill 4 million americans im in no way guilty of anything? Strange logic.

Our society would say you are guilty, but in the grand scheme of things, is there some over-arching authority that deems you, Moldybread guilty? No.... One society's crime is another society's good deed. The only way there could be some true form of guilt because of wrong doing is if there is some omniscient omnipotent being that knows the truth. This is the only way true guilt can exist. Even if it does... somewhere out there... I don't pretend to know what it is. All I know are the rules in the society where I function.

If I said you were truly guilty for selling a nuclear weapon to a terrorist who would use it to wipe out New York, I would be operating under the assumption that my code of morals is correct and yours/the terrorists' morals are incorrect. Do I agree with them? Hell no... Does that mean I know I'm right? Nope.

While I do agree with you,  when two armies fight and one leaves victorious and the other defeated, when they come home and tell stories, the Victors tell of hoards of angels that came from the sky to help them destroy the other army. the Defeated tell a story of Demons rising from the depths of hell and killing everything on their ways (not my own image, I think Russells, but I am not sure)..

Still I think the question here is not whether people feel pride for their country and the goals it accomplishes, but whether can a person sleep at night knowing of the way those goals were accomplished...

If the measure by which we attribute guilt is purely one's own conscience then that makes the issue even murkier. There are plenty of people in this world who do things that most "normal" people would never dream of, then go home with a clean conscience. Not to mention why do we feel the way we do about our actions? Why would we not be able to sleep at night? I think it is purely because we have been conditioned by our society to view certain things as right/wrong. If you put a gun to someone's head and pulled the trigger because he was a competitor at work for a promotion, you'd probably feel pretty ripped up after... you may not sleep 'cuz of it... you may have nightmares, whatever... But if we were living hundreds/thousands of years ago and you killed the same man because he was competition for food or a woman... You wouldn't bat an eye.

You are more then right, the statuses and the norms of the society are the ones that dictate the so called morality and behavior of individuals in a society. But,the guilt by association is a perception of the individual by the other members of the society and thus looking from within such a society said morals that were dictated by the societies norms are the ones that count in self perception, and so in this society people who build tools that are ONLY used for murder are indeed guilty by association - which of course does not show the existence of good and evil, nor would it associate them with such definitions in a general sense if those definitions were existent. .
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: Dipset420 on October 18, 2012, 11:37 pm
I don't think many of them even believe what they are doing is wrong, they hide under the veil of national security and defensive measures since it's only the governments who can really afford half the stuff BAE produces.

In the whole i think your right, ignorance is bliss for the masses anyway but it still doesn't retract from the fact that those otherwise law abiding citizens are willingly developing and building weapons with the sole purpose of killing people, that must whisper in your brain just before you go to sleep.


Guns do do things, i have a friend who dropped his shotgun on the ground, shot him in the leg, funny now, bit scary at the time BUT the point is there was no finger on the trigger, completely down to the gun.

  Yea but your friend dropped the gun meaning he had to pick it up first right?  If I set down next to a gun its not going to mysteriously shoot me.  Your buddy's mistake of dropping a loaded firearm with safety off is what shot him in the leg not the shotguns fault.
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: s1np3l0 on October 19, 2012, 04:33 pm
I think this topic is kind of ironic considering it's been posted on SR - and this is my thoughts on why it is ironic: most of the people here posting on this forum have happily spent their money, bitcoins whatever to buy drugs. I guess I shouldn't explain to anyone here where some of this stuff comes from and at what price. If you have bought coke here, I think there is a pretty big chance that you have been indirectly financing murderers who kill for profit. I've lived in one of those countries for a while (not gonna name the exact location but Mexico should be sufficient). Anyways, if you feel comfortable contributing to that, you can also happily work for a gun manufacturer. Obviously the situation is very different and comparing those 2 things is ridiculous, because we have been forced to get substances like that and "politics" have created that monster that operates like those cartels do in Mexico. But there are some similarities - our society is built that way - we "need" money to eat and make a living - so again, getting a job is a must for most people. I have a technical degree and honestly I have thought about working for such companies (it's really not that easy cause you have to pass a lot of psychological tests and background checks etc.). I don't think I want to because it's just not what I want to do for the rest of my life, but I'm sure not all guns are used for the murder of innocent people - so I don't really think there is just a default guilt for working there. Personally I'd feel more guilty buying coke or weed from Latin America because I've seen in which conditions those are manufactured (at least weed) and I've seen the price that is being paid every day with seriously fucked up violence. But that's just my 2 cents .. I hope nobody feels offended by it.
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: Ballzinator on October 20, 2012, 12:41 pm
I think this topic is kind of ironic considering it's been posted on SR - and this is my thoughts on why it is ironic: most of the people here posting on this forum have happily spent their money, bitcoins whatever to buy drugs. I guess I shouldn't explain to anyone here where some of this stuff comes from and at what price. If you have bought coke here, I think there is a pretty big chance that you have been indirectly financing murderers who kill for profit. I've lived in one of those countries for a while (not gonna name the exact location but Mexico should be sufficient). Anyways, if you feel comfortable contributing to that, you can also happily work for a gun manufacturer. Obviously the situation is very different and comparing those 2 things is ridiculous, because we have been forced to get substances like that and "politics" have created that monster that operates like those cartels do in Mexico. But there are some similarities - our society is built that way - we "need" money to eat and make a living - so again, getting a job is a must for most people. I have a technical degree and honestly I have thought about working for such companies (it's really not that easy cause you have to pass a lot of psychological tests and background checks etc.). I don't think I want to because it's just not what I want to do for the rest of my life, but I'm sure not all guns are used for the murder of innocent people - so I don't really think there is just a default guilt for working there. Personally I'd feel more guilty buying coke or weed from Latin America because I've seen in which conditions those are manufactured (at least weed) and I've seen the price that is being paid every day with seriously fucked up violence. But that's just my 2 cents .. I hope nobody feels offended by it.
+1
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: Theodore Geisle on October 22, 2012, 02:02 am
I did not feel guilty at all when bin laden got offed !
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: sausage and mash on October 22, 2012, 12:16 pm
I think this topic is kind of ironic considering it's been posted on SR - and this is my thoughts on why it is ironic: most of the people here posting on this forum have happily spent their money, bitcoins whatever to buy drugs. I guess I shouldn't explain to anyone here where some of this stuff comes from and at what price. If you have bought coke here, I think there is a pretty big chance that you have been indirectly financing murderers who kill for profit. I've lived in one of those countries for a while (not gonna name the exact location but Mexico should be sufficient). Anyways, if you feel comfortable contributing to that, you can also happily work for a gun manufacturer. Obviously the situation is very different and comparing those 2 things is ridiculous, because we have been forced to get substances like that and "politics" have created that monster that operates like those cartels do in Mexico. But there are some similarities - our society is built that way - we "need" money to eat and make a living - so again, getting a job is a must for most people. I have a technical degree and honestly I have thought about working for such companies (it's really not that easy cause you have to pass a lot of psychological tests and background checks etc.). I don't think I want to because it's just not what I want to do for the rest of my life, but I'm sure not all guns are used for the murder of innocent people - so I don't really think there is just a default guilt for working there. Personally I'd feel more guilty buying coke or weed from Latin America because I've seen in which conditions those are manufactured (at least weed) and I've seen the price that is being paid every day with seriously fucked up violence. But that's just my 2 cents .. I hope nobody feels offended by it.

Nope thats a great point, in fact you could go as far as to say that most mass produced/marketed products would have involved the exploitation and death of somebody at some point during its manufacture, look at the grief the workers in the apple factories put up with, suicide is common, working conditions are shit, the trouble with in the south African mines, B.P. oil drilling, its a near endless list, Barclay's bank approx £7.1billion investment in BAE systems, how many of us bank with them?
These are everyday products that we are conditioned to forget are made off the back of others less fortunate.

The shotgun issue, right, (deep breath) if there was no gun to drop he wouldn't have been shot, ok, no gun no shooting, therefore the only thing that changes the outcome is the gun, so guns do hurt people and they are designed to kill people.
I understand that some country's have very lax gun laws, some none at all but those with the strictest have the less fatalities from them.
I'm not anti guns, but i am glad we have tight gun laws in the UK and only specialist police that carry them, even if they do shoot the wrong man sometimes.
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: s1np3l0 on October 22, 2012, 12:41 pm
I think this topic is kind of ironic considering it's been posted on SR - and this is my thoughts on why it is ironic: most of the people here posting on this forum have happily spent their money, bitcoins whatever to buy drugs. I guess I shouldn't explain to anyone here where some of this stuff comes from and at what price. If you have bought coke here, I think there is a pretty big chance that you have been indirectly financing murderers who kill for profit. I've lived in one of those countries for a while (not gonna name the exact location but Mexico should be sufficient). Anyways, if you feel comfortable contributing to that, you can also happily work for a gun manufacturer. Obviously the situation is very different and comparing those 2 things is ridiculous, because we have been forced to get substances like that and "politics" have created that monster that operates like those cartels do in Mexico. But there are some similarities - our society is built that way - we "need" money to eat and make a living - so again, getting a job is a must for most people. I have a technical degree and honestly I have thought about working for such companies (it's really not that easy cause you have to pass a lot of psychological tests and background checks etc.). I don't think I want to because it's just not what I want to do for the rest of my life, but I'm sure not all guns are used for the murder of innocent people - so I don't really think there is just a default guilt for working there. Personally I'd feel more guilty buying coke or weed from Latin America because I've seen in which conditions those are manufactured (at least weed) and I've seen the price that is being paid every day with seriously fucked up violence. But that's just my 2 cents .. I hope nobody feels offended by it.

Nope thats a great point, in fact you could go as far as to say that most mass produced/marketed products would have involved the exploitation and death of somebody at some point during its manufacture, look at the grief the workers in the apple factories put up with, suicide is common, working conditions are shit, the trouble with in the south African mines, B.P. oil drilling, its a near endless list, Barclay's bank approx £7.1billion investment in BAE systems, how many of us bank with them?
These are everyday products that we are conditioned to forget are made off the back of others less fortunate.

The shotgun issue, right, (deep breath) if there was no gun to drop he wouldn't have been shot, ok, no gun no shooting, therefore the only thing that changes the outcome is the gun, so guns do hurt people and they are designed to kill people.
I understand that some country's have very lax gun laws, some none at all but those with the strictest have the less fatalities from them.
I'm not anti guns, but i am glad we have tight gun laws in the UK and only specialist police that carry them, even if they do shoot the wrong man sometimes.

Absolutely agree, I guess most people here have had those "discussions" with vegetarians or vegans about supporting animal cruelty for eating meat, at the same time those same people wear mass produced clothing and use mass produced technological devices as you mentioned (Apple etc.). I came to the conclusion that I only accept criticism to my lifestyle from people who live naked in the woods and produce everything for themselves :D But this is kinda far off from where the topic started, so regarding gun laws - again I completely agree - glad I live in the EU where guns basically don't exist for "normal" people and gun violence is really rare. On the other hand it's the same as with prohibiting drugs - you can try to outlaw whatever you want but as long as there's a demand it won't work and people will find a way around it. I don't think it makes a difference if you get stabbed to death with a kitchen knife or shot down by a handgun - violence will always occur, especially in a society that has more and more failed to provide moral values. You can't take any government serious who claims that it outlaws drugs for the  safety of citizens and at the same time not only receives blood money with cigarette and alcohol taxes but also creates drug violence in the first place.
But there's still hope.. considering what world mankind lived in 100 years ago and where we are now, I'm sure things are going to change eventually.

Another thing I would like to point out is that the need for protection (through military means)  is also caused by the fact that we live in a globalized world but at the same time have very different concepts of society and "evolution". Even if western countries reach the point where they realize drugs are awesome, guns are useless and so on...  I don't think it would be a smart idea to just have no army or defense research. I don't think Asian or Middle Eastern countries would just go along - it doesn't work now by force (Iraq, Afghanistan .. ) and it sure won't work with no force. It's a process they have to go through on their own after realizing they are not free.

Anyways, thanks for posting this thread, although answers come slow, it's one of the most interesting threads I've read here so far.
Title: Re: Guilty by association?
Post by: BenCousins on October 22, 2012, 05:29 pm
Hello all, after a spot of afternoon tea with several friends and associates we stumbled onto the discussion of responsibility, more specifically the morality of working for an arms manufacturer.
I also thinks this kind of ties in with the thread about payback for those fighting in the war on drugs, or doesn't I'm not sure.
Basically the question we discussed is if you work for an arms manufacturer say BAE systems, no matter what position or level (executive - production line hand) you are effectively saying you agree with the killing of another human for gain, now there are lots of industries both illegal and legal that participate in the killing of people for profit but we chose this as its a world wide legal business that is financed by some of the worlds oldest and "friendly" institutions, (many of us use banks that have billion £/$ shares in these cooperation) and in its machine are blue collar workers who would no more shoot someone in the face than drop a depleted uranium tipped shell on a village, but they continue to work and assemble these weapons.

Do we believe that all those in the chain are as guilty as the leader that oks the use of the weapons, if there is a maker/god/big guy will he judge you on this or will it be a case of 'alright son, you had to feed your family'.

Also as this is my 100th post I'm going to issuing karma hard until the novelty wares off, assuming people reply that is....

being Australian i hate your fucking gun laws and access to them and thank fuck that i dont live in the USA but guns dont have to be used to kill people, they can be used as a deterrent to stop someone who maybe have killed you or maybe trying to steal something off you. Water also kills you know?