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Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: fourthDVD on September 30, 2012, 09:04 pm

Title: Do you know your rights?? (and the control of fear)
Post by: fourthDVD on September 30, 2012, 09:04 pm
It amazes me when people seem passionate about civil rights, yet they have never even read the constitution.  Recently, I was speaking with a long time friend about the protection of rights.  When he found out I support the ACLU, he asked how I could support a communistic and anti-American group.  It took time and patience, but eventually he learned how misinformed he had become.

I realize this is an international forum and I am only speaking from an American viewpoint.  However, I think methods of control are universal.  The most common method is fear! 

Fear and rational thought are at odds with each other.  When someone wants to easily sway opinion, fear works best for the masses.  Of course there are many other ways to control the masses.  A few that come to mind are:

- logical fallacy (you are either for us or against us)
- deceitful word choice (buzzwords like terrorist, evil, narcotic)
- slippery slope arguments...although that can at times be genuine (first pot then the youth will all be on cocaine!)
- appeals to fear and emotion (we are at war...we must stand against the evils of _____________ )

Of course there is also the power if LIES!  Don't be a sheep!!  Try and be objective and search for the truth.  If you simply look for reinforcement of held beliefs, you will be blind to truth.   

If you have read this far...thanks!!  Here is a question....I would love to see who knows the answer!!  WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TRUTH AND FACT?
Title: Re: Do you know your rights?? (and the control of fear)
Post by: hope2come on September 30, 2012, 10:33 pm
AD HOMINEM- is saying that one thing is true about someone or something because something else is true.
formula: because X is true then y is also true
example:
Obama's policies support Muslims because he used to be a Muslim.

or you can stretch it further:

That doctor got drunk over the weekend and cheated on his wife. Therefore he is incompetent and not capable of performing my surgery.
Helen Keller went pee outside so she would make a bad astronaut.

RED HERRING- is when your talking about one thing and then the person changes the topic to something they are better versed in
formula: discussion is X. mention X switch to Y make points on Y forget X
example:
QUESTION- "Senator Romney, how do you plan to fix the economy if you get elected president?"
ANSWER- "The economy is really bad right now, if you elect me, its like that warm feeling you get when you take your kids to school, its like going to the beach on a sunny day, its like knowing that everything is going to be ok and that your kids are cared for."

Quote
the difference between truth and fact.. hmmm.... fact is something that can be measured or referenced. It is real and tangible.  whereas truth can be more conceptual
thats really a tough one for me... anyone else?
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Post by: StExo on September 30, 2012, 11:52 pm
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Title: Re: Do you know your rights?? (and the control of fear)
Post by: fourthDVD on October 01, 2012, 01:59 am
The difference between truth and fact is simple and VERY important.  Facts can be wrong!  Truth is never wrong.

It used to be an accepted fact that the world was flat..but it was not the truth!  Think about this the next time someone starts spouting off facts.
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Post by: StExo on October 01, 2012, 07:52 pm
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Title: Re: Do you know your rights?? (and the control of fear)
Post by: jameslink2 on October 01, 2012, 10:05 pm
The difference between truth and fact is simple and VERY important.  Facts can be wrong!  Truth is never wrong.

It used to be an accepted fact that the world was flat..but it was not the truth!  Think about this the next time someone starts spouting off facts.

Truth == That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality

Truths can change and be wrong based on your point of view.

Truth "Killing another human is illegal/wrong" Today yes, Unless you are the government then you can kill anyone you want. In early South American cultures human sacrifice was  acceptable as well.

Try this one, Is it true that forcing a minor boy to give an adult man a Blowjob and swallow is wrong?
Now ask one of the Etoro tribe of New Guinea.  ::)

Just pointing out that the Truth can change.
Title: Re: Do you know your rights?? (and the control of fear)
Post by: fourthDVD on October 01, 2012, 10:20 pm
The difference between truth and fact is simple and VERY important.  Facts can be wrong!  Truth is never wrong.

It used to be an accepted fact that the world was flat..but it was not the truth!  Think about this the next time someone starts spouting off facts.

Truth == That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality

Truths can change and be wrong based on your point of view.

Truth "Killing another human is illegal/wrong" Today yes, Unless you are the government then you can kill anyone you want. In early South American cultures human sacrifice was  acceptable as well.

Try this one, Is it true that forcing a minor boy to give an adult man a Blowjob and swallow is wrong?
Now ask one of the Etoro tribe of New Guinea.  ::)

Just pointing out that the Truth can change.

I will have to disagree.  You used a moral as an example of truth.  Morals can change
Title: Re: Do you know your rights?? (and the control of fear)
Post by: jameslink2 on October 01, 2012, 10:27 pm
How about "The sky is blue"

Unless you are color blind, or on mars, or just before a good rain storm.

Pick a truth and let me see if you can prove me wrong. You are correct that I chose moral arguments for that post but what the hell I am game.  ;D

Remember 1+2 == 4
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Post by: StExo on October 02, 2012, 07:35 pm
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Title: Re: Do you know your rights?? (and the control of fear)
Post by: tpebop on October 02, 2012, 11:05 pm
This relativist bullshit reminds me of the story of the elephant and the three blind men. Three blind men come upon an elephant not being able to see the beast they each touch it to figure out what it is. One finds a leg and declares it is in fact a tree and he is touching the trunk. another finds the elephants trunk and agrees with the first man as he has found a branch. The third agrees as he has a giant leaf when in fact it is the ear. They all believe they have found a tree. Hippy dippy doo relativist thinking agrees they have a tree. Lefty loony relativists also agree it is a tree indeed. Now we all know that it is a fucking elephant but hey don't confuse me with the facts man.
Title: Re: Do you know your rights?? (and the control of fear)
Post by: tpebop on October 02, 2012, 11:23 pm
As an clinically defined psychopath (very little or no feelings of remorse, sympathy etc, not the psychotic breakdown characters from films), I can safely throw any moral code out of the question :)

We also have to taken into consideration when debating truth vs fact that there is no reason to this world, a tool I use when debating with religious people/groups. There is no "reason" to the universe, there is no "point" to living and there is no question of "Why we are here", we simply exist. The idea of having a purpose is just outrageous, we are in existence from a very complex development ranging from the big bang's matter vs anti-matter leftovers all the way to the laws of physics working into the laws of chemistry and then creating biology as sophisticated arrangements of particles. We are no different to a machine, it is just we are at a level of complexity beyond our own comprehension.

So, sometimes there is no reason to something, such as the sky is blue and that is simply an observation (being that the brain perceives not colour itself, but the wavelength of the light which comes into the iris) and no anything of real value. If you said the sky gives off (well reflects and refracts to be correct, but lets keep this simple) wavelengths of  around 450 to 495 nm in length, then you are correct in terms of you have given it the absolute properties it has using a unit of measure which is not subjective to human interpretation.

Getting back to the statement of "The sky is blue", it isn't blue at all, that is simply how we are perceiving it, therefore this is not a fact or even a truth for a natural law cannot be subjective to interpretation without a degree of concern.
You like that existentialist stuff? Read Viktor Frankl read mans search for meaning it is a great book in so many ways. Frankl was a great mind of his time he wrote half that book while in a Nazi death camp. While Freud was the will to pleasure and Nietzsche was the will to power, Frankl was the will to meaning. It is a very existentialist book yet he solves the issue of the meaning of life in a very novel way.
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Post by: StExo on October 02, 2012, 11:48 pm
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Title: Re: Do you know your rights?? (and the control of fear)
Post by: tpebop on October 03, 2012, 12:15 am
This relativist bullshit reminds me of the story of the elephant and the three blind men. Three blind men come upon an elephant not being able to see the beast they each touch it to figure out what it is. One finds a leg and declares it is in fact a tree and he is touching the trunk. another finds the elephants trunk and agrees with the first man as he has found a branch. The third agrees as he has a giant leaf when in fact it is the ear. They all believe they have found a tree. Hippy dippy doo relativist thinking agrees they have a tree. Lefty loony relativists also agree it is a tree indeed. Now we all know that it is a fucking elephant but hey don't confuse me with the facts man.

I assume those 3 men didn't know what a tree was, so how can you say with any degree of certainty that it is something you don't know and if they knew what a tree was like, then they're pretty stupid to not be able to tell the difference between an elephant hide and the bark of a tree. If you ignore any part of the observation, then we can never see the entire picture for what it is rather than what we want it to be or what we think it is.

If you think what I said was bullshit, then please explain how a serial killer can perceive murdering another person fun, exciting and interesting, yet it sickens others? The perception of murdering another person is dependent on the individuals own moral code or internal set of rules, and by 2 people having a different opinion and idea about the exact same event, this means the view is subjective. If I stood facing you and you to me, and we placed a statue between us, I would see one side and you would see the other, but we still see the same statue, only our interpretation of it is different because of where we are standing and in essence, we all choose where we stand in the world by how we interpret it.

CLEARNET LINK (Image demonstrating perceptional differences):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RlDz3Y-ADLk/T8e0LwEFR4I/AAAAAAAAAh8/XN62HA0Gyug/s1600/Image32.gif

Oh man you are asking the wrong guy here I admire serial killers and psychopaths. I research this stuff and enjoy it. Now mind you I have no love for the mass murderer. To understand a serial killer you need to understand their morals and beliefs and yeah they have morals. Example a serial killer never killer never kills their boyfriend/girlfriend. But more than that you need to understand their schema. Look at Dahmer, Jeffery Dahmer was a lonely homosexual man. He really never wanted to hurt anyone he was just so painfully lonely. He tried to make zombies first by using trepanation  and things like boiling water or household bleach he hoped to create a "love slave" so that he would never be alone again. Now these efforts did not work and this frustrated Dahmer so he killed his victims. However he did not destroy their remains no no no he ATE them. This he did so that they would forever be a part of him and he hoped this would assuage his deep deep loneliness.....    Get my point here?
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Post by: StExo on October 03, 2012, 01:13 am
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Title: Re: Do you know your rights?? (and the control of fear)
Post by: tpebop on October 03, 2012, 01:36 am
Bundy was more of a thrill kill kinda guy he was in a way the ultimate predator but he chose mostly weak victims.