Silk Road forums
Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: Adasel on September 30, 2012, 06:25 pm
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Sorry for this rant, but some american on another forum made a comment about the anti islamic video that was posted on Youtube last week and was like, why are those guys in the middle east getting so mad??.
I mean seriously what the fuck?.
I am not anti american, but honestly their government has a a lot to answer for.
They get involved in wars they have no reason to be in, and for what?. Either money or oil and afterwards the country is left in a fucking shambles every time.
Americans need to get a grip on their so called "foreign policy" bullshit and realise they dont actually have one.
No wonder most of the middle east is pissed of with america.
Sorry, just a point of view.
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What even was that movie about? I never watched it.
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I hear what you are saying OP. One would wonder what business the American Government has invading a lot of the countries it invades.
I read a book recently called "The Confessions of an Economic Hitman". I'd highly recommend it. It is very enlightening and it explains the real agenda of the American Government and how they achieve their objectives; and it comes from someone who was involved in their agenda.
Here is an interview with the author of the book, it is long but interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbdnNgqfs8
Enjoy :)
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I agree, we don't have a foreign policy right now except for...."We're sorry...we suck." -Obama
We gave the taliban $43 million in 2000 to help eradicate heroin production in afghanistan....that worked out well.
But seriously....we're only about 70 years removed from WWI and WWII....has europe and the middle east forgotten that already? You're welcome, world.
But as far as the middle east goes, we should just GTFO and let those morons take eachother out like they have been since the beginning of time. Israel is the best possible insurance policy we have over there, as they are sure to launch a full-on blitz as soon as they even get a SNIFF of any weapons grade uranium emanating from Iran....
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i'm sorry, but the people protesting this "movie" are epic, EPIC, fucking trollbait. one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. sure the guy that made the movie is an asshole, but the world is full of assholes...particularly in the united states. you gotta learn to just ignore it. and i mean, come on, that video was the worst piece of shit i have ever seen. its not even in the "so bad its funny" category. its just whack. i couldn't even sit through it long enough to get to the "most insulting" aspects of it.
anyone who says "the american government needs to step in" is a cunting twat. people can say whatever the fuck they want, and other people can cry about it as loud as they please. thats the way it goes here on earth in the 21st century.
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What even was that movie about? I never watched it.
Don't rush out, its the poorest thing iv ever seen, forget the prophet bullshit it really is piss poor, i managed about 7 minutes of it while having a shit.
I read somewhere that one of the actors didn't know what she was appearing in and is now suing the maker.
The issue with the film was made by the media, without those assholes nobody would have known about the film, seriously there's hundreds of films out there knocking everything but they picked on this to keep us scared of the Muslim world, its a set up to keep us buying bullets and papers.
If anything the media corporation heads should be arrested for incitement to murder, pricks.
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What even was that movie about? I never watched it.
I'd recommend watching it if you're prone to having a morbid humor... Seeing as the movie is as sad and gruesome as it gets.
It's essentially a satirical (and I mean that in the absolute LOOSEST form that would can and will ever take) look at the life of Muhammad, putting a notable emphasis (exaggerated lies) on his historical wrongs, a la marrying the 9 year old tales and such.
Though in all fairness, the movie itself was not necessarily the direct reason for the violence against America, moreso the catalyst. But boy-howdy was it a hell of a catalyst
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The movie created and serviced just for cause an unconscious and primitive reaction from fanatic muslims...and unfortunately it worked.It's true,there is no doubt islam religion is one of the most dangerous monsters.But this monster didn't created and grown by itself.The decision makers in USA and Europe have feeded and watched the monster always when it was eating innocent people alive...and many of ordinary people in there just turned to blinds and ignored.Maybe that aggressive,primitive and poor people just want to be a matter of concern and cry for help with some way subconsciously,and maybe they cried too much this time...and there is no doubt the decision makers are looking forward to help this poor people and they will bring freedom to muslim people as soosn as possible,like they've done in Iraq and many other places...freedom with no life,it's free enough :) And lastly, just follow the courses in Syria.The decision makers are supporting the most fanatic islamic groups and el-kaide like terrorists in there...now.
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Western nations can't do shit about the insane gnostic demon that is Islam (or Christianity, for that matter). Muslims and Christians both need their Swami Vivekananda.
...you should look that one up.
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I too understand their hate for America but getting angry at a video in which they are depicted as violent savages and acting like violent savages in response seems pretty fucking retarded to me.
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What even was that movie about? I never watched it.
I'd recommend watching it if you're prone to having a morbid humor... Seeing as the movie is as sad and gruesome as it gets.
It's essentially a satirical (and I mean that in the absolute LOOSEST form that would can and will ever take) look at the life of Muhammad, putting a notable emphasis (exaggerated lies) on his historical wrongs, a la marrying the 9 year old tales and such.
Though in all fairness, the movie itself was not necessarily the direct reason for the violence against America, moreso the catalyst. But boy-howdy was it a hell of a catalyst
I might have to get on this vid, if not just for the dark laugh.
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Doooo iiiiit, because like it or not, it's become a little piece of history. Just like Terry Jones and his fanaticism, The Innocence of Muslims in all it's hilarihorridness gets to join in on the fun!
A link for your convenience, obviously clearnet warning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
Also fun fact, the creator of this video is a Coptic Christian, which if you know anything about Coptic relations it gives a meager backstory to this hilaritarded crap of hunk.
As for the rest of the rumours permeating through this thread, it was not necessarily the movie that the militant protests over, it's the fact that the militant factions now have a good excuse to rile up the populace to protest and attack the United States. We've seen the same with the Dutch, wherein Theo Van Gogh was killed for his depiction of Muhammad. What wasn't accounted for was the racial troubles occurring at the same time that oppressed and angered the populace. Obviously I'm not defending wanton destruction and murder, but the world isn't as black and white as the media likes to think it is.
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i'm sorry, but the people protesting this "movie" are epic, EPIC, fucking trollbait. one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. sure the guy that made the movie is an asshole, but the world is full of assholes...particularly in the united states. you gotta learn to just ignore it. and i mean, come on, that video was the worst piece of shit i have ever seen. its not even in the "so bad its funny" category. its just whack. i couldn't even sit through it long enough to get to the "most insulting" aspects of it.
anyone who says "the american government needs to step in" is a cunting twat. people can say whatever the fuck they want, and other people can cry about it as loud as they please. thats the way it goes here on earth in the 21st century.
Trollbait??
I started this thread as a form of discussion, if you disagree with the whole discussion, then you have no place here. You can either imput some positive criticism or the like, which is the purpose of a discussion, or GTFO.
The comment you made, means you are, infact the troll on this forum thread.
If you dont like it, dont join in.
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i'm american and i could give two shits less about anything involving politics its bad enough we have obama in office not gonna say anymore on that fag
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"False Flag Operations"
The U.S. is infamous for these type of maneuvers.
What the bigger story was at the same time of these Arab riots in multiple countries was the announcement from the Federal Reserve for QE3 - Which, planned, only received roughly 5% of the media coverage. What this means is that the Federal Reserve is going to print money out of thin air to buy up mortgages and loan out interest free liquidity to U.S. Major banks. It has happened twice in U.S. history and had a limit towards the amount the FED could print. This time for QE3 might be called QEInfinity since it was announced there will be no limit on the amount they print.
Quantitative Easing.
Do you REALLY think that a YouTube movie caused a riot in multiple Islamic states? Lol.
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i'm sorry, but the people protesting this "movie" are epic, EPIC, fucking trollbait. one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. sure the guy that made the movie is an asshole, but the world is full of assholes...particularly in the united states. you gotta learn to just ignore it. and i mean, come on, that video was the worst piece of shit i have ever seen. its not even in the "so bad its funny" category. its just whack. i couldn't even sit through it long enough to get to the "most insulting" aspects of it.
anyone who says "the american government needs to step in" is a cunting twat. people can say whatever the fuck they want, and other people can cry about it as loud as they please. thats the way it goes here on earth in the 21st century.
Trollbait??
I started this thread as a form of discussion, if you disagree with the whole discussion, then you have no place here. You can either imput some positive criticism or the like, which is the purpose of a discussion, or GTFO.
The comment you made, means you are, infact the troll on this forum thread.
If you dont like it, dont join in.
fakk off ya fakkin board nazi.
i did indeed feel as though i had something to contribute to this thread, being an american. my point is that the muslims are even worse trollbait than christians, and anyone who thinks the united states government should implement some law against insulting Islam can straight fakk the fakk off.
you really don't think they're trollbait? come on, dude, really? how long have you been on the internet? that movie was a blatant troll (and not even a funny one, for that matter) and these people took the bait, hook line and sinker. pathetic.
why don't we all just go to neo nazi and KKK boards and start "protesting" them and getting in arguments with stubborn biggotts? because us intelligent folk who populate the internet know to never argue with fools, because an onlooker might not be able to tell who''s who.
if you want to be muslim, thats great for you I guess, but be strong in your convictions. if a video this bad can evoke such a response, then there is something seriously wrong with your convictions.
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are there actually any muslims on here i doubt it i thought it was against their religion to do drugs i know they don't drink and i'm not talking about producing opium and weed
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are there actually any muslims on here i doubt it i thought it was against their religion to do drugs i know they don't drink and i'm not talking about producing opium and weed
I'm not...but I was.Drinking alcohol is haram(banned) but there's no inhibition about opium and weed.And using both of them have a very long history in this territory and culture.Actually there were also many of islamic philosophers(sufis) drinking alcohol.I was also drinking alcohol when I was muslim.Humans are multifarious,there are many of people and believers living on the edges but please don't generalize.You can see the edges and fanatics in all religions but there are also many different people around, you cannot imagine how.By the way don't think I'm defending islam religion,I'm living in this shit as a non-muslim and I know what the fuck it is...but I'm defending humans you are criticizing with having no idea..
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how did i criticize any1 i just made a general fact based statement
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You said you doubt there are any muslims here.So this may be a criticizing for any muslim.Maybe I cannot explain well because of my weak English,but saying this is a bias at least if it is not criticizing.By the way I'm not against you criticize anyone or any subject,you have every rights to do that like everyone I think.But please try to develop some empathy while you do that.
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fakk off ya fakkin board nazi.
I was actually going to agree with your second post, but when i saw that comment, i thought, nah just ignore the cunt.
As for the opium thing, i honestly didnt know about that. Thanks for the history lesson.
Oh and to the op who made the comment i quoted, i have been around the internet for a long time, probably longer than you judging by your poor use of language and spelling.
I am not being a board nazi there, just pointing out the use of the english language.
It saddens me that a lot of people these days just simply cannot be arsed to make the time to speak properly.
Wasted youth i guess.
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fakk off ya fakkin board nazi.
I was actually going to agree with your second post, but when i saw that comment, i thought, nah just ignore the cunt.
As for the opium thing, i honestly didnt know about that. Thanks for the history lesson.
Oh and to the op who made the comment i quoted, i have been around the internet for a long time, probably longer than you judging by your poor use of language and spelling.
I am not being a board nazi there, just pointing out the use of the english language.
It saddens me that a lot of people these days just simply cannot be arsed to make the time to speak properly.
Wasted youth i guess.
i repeat: fakk off ya fakkin board nazi.
i've been on the internet since compuserve and prodigy, dude. back when we used to use "bulletin boards" and a 14.4kbps modem was considered "high speed." if you can't take a little joshing around and butchered english, than you, mon ostie, are the one who has not been on the internet long enough.
i stand firm by my opinion that muslims are the most epic trollbait on the planet today. christians are a close second. atheists are a distant third.
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just a heads up guys. This "movie" was dubbed over after the fact, and the actors that were in it had no idea that this would be a anti-islam movie. It seems like alot to get worked up over.....
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[ One day we will have a choice in the West, do we tolerate Islam to the point it destroys our own culture and they aggressively take over and infiltrate every part of our society as they are already doing, or do we take a stand against it to stop the tide of them and their ancient, animal like archaic ideologies. As Islam has seeped into Western culture over the years and has been tolerated, they are now a major contender of power but they lack something we have. Very big bombs.
You are right,I totally agree that.All religions are madness I think and islam is one of the worsts and one of the most dangerous ones and probably the most.But please don't forget muslims are also humans like you and many of them deserve know the truths and set themselves free..but of course they have to work hard for quit religion shit and the price of this also very high(like loosing life in many islamic country).
If we look at the last 10 years or 20 years or 30 years...we can see clearly governments in the islamic countries are being more and more conservative and authoritarian.And ironically they all talk about freedom and democrasy :) Don't think people want and vote for them,they can manipulate people in many ways and I'm very sure they are also cheating in the elections.The very bad thing is European and USA governments are supporting directly this conservative and insane politicians.There must be 2 reasons of this.First is like you said,they(who trying the rule the world) want to use islam as a world religion.You didn't say that actually but this is just can be possible after the islamic culture be important in the Europe and USA as their culture.I think this should not be referred as bull shit,because islam is a very useful thing to use people and masses.True muslims are totally submissive.I can't imagine this kind of world in the future,it can be terrible.But we've seen many terrible things on the world... much more than we resist.
And the second one is also like you said,they supporting them because they need an excuse to destroy muslim people completely and they may have many reasons to do that.But I think people like you won't do credit to this psycho idea for any reason.
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There's only so far you can push the blame on American/Israeli policy. No doubt the region is a lot worse off since the wars started, but who has really studied this in depth? The pop culture idea is that the war in Iraq is bad and was for oil.
Now that's a point of view and it may well be the case, but which of us have looked at all the lobbying interests in detail, followed all the politicians' histories and policy changes over the past few decades as well as studied in depth the formation of Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and the regimes of the region, and how they all affect each other in the bigger picture? Who knows in depth how the Islamic ideology has developed over time and where its roots lie; whether it is solely the religion to blame or if American foreign policy has exacerbated the issues to the point of it being the driving factor and not the attitudes of religiosity in the region? Who here is educated in the sectarian conflicts of the region and the history of the Sunni/Shia debate and how that has affected the area and of the plights that continue to befall many muslims in that region because of this trivial, banal difference in ideology? Who here knows the relationships between Saddam's Iraq and the other countries in the area, to a level of trade, diplomacy, military strategy and how that affected the politics and public opinion? Who here has actually taken an interest in the politics of the Middle East and its history, listened to all the UN speeches, followed all the diplomatic commentary, read every article about Western business interests, and put together a view of the big picture for themselves, out of a desire to really find the truth of the matter?
There comes a point where you just have to admit that we have a lot of opinions because we're presented with them in the culture, and we like to espouse points of view that are sympathetic to the beliefs we already have (distrust of government etc) out of a sense of righteousness.
Personally I don't feel like I know ANYWHERE LIKE NEAR enough on the HUGE history of the issue to have an opinion that I'm confident enough in to push on others.
Perhaps the war was started to secure business and oil interests.. perhaps it was started to rid Iraq of Saddam and to help them establish a democracy and a functioning civil society.. perhaps it has its roots in a Zionist run America and a conspiracy against the muslim world.. Perhaps there isn't really a conspiracy behind it and it was just a war mongering president's wish to be like his father and belong.
Truth is the level of study that is required to have an opinion on this that is actually somewhere approaching the truth is well, scholarly/professorial to say the least, and I honestly doubt anyone here genuinely, sincerely cares about it that much to take that mammoth task on.
We'd much rather say Iraq war = bad, or Iraq war = good and have people agree with us, aint that right?
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The funny thing is StExo, Islam promotes learning and specifically in science. I'm guessing Mohammed didn't think the theory of evolution would ever be discovered but him and his Son-in-law were pretty intelligent for their time. I think what Mohammed was going for when he created Islam, was a religion that adopted virtues from every major religion on the planet to convert as many people as possible--which is why most of Islam's back-story is based on Christianity and Judaism but the same problems comes forth.
Science has far surpassed any explanations that religion has provided, so what the fuck, why are we still believing in this bullcrap? Oh yeah, it's needed to euthanize the masses in the current setting of the world. We need all the ignorant workers to believe in a religious ideology so they don't revolt or commit "sin" to escape their abject poverty. Hopefully when technology evolves a bit and we switch over to a better way of generating energy than by use of fossil fuels, we'll get there... which is planned to happen around 2035.
Sadly, lots of death and destruction lie between now and then. Oh, how amazingly eventful our lifetimes will become >:D
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"False Flag Operations"
The U.S. is infamous for these type of maneuvers.
What the bigger story was at the same time of these Arab riots in multiple countries was the announcement from the Federal Reserve for QE3 - Which, planned, only received roughly 5% of the media coverage. What this means is that the Federal Reserve is going to print money out of thin air to buy up mortgages and loan out interest free liquidity to U.S. Major banks. It has happened twice in U.S. history and had a limit towards the amount the FED could print. This time for QE3 might be called QEInfinity since it was announced there will be no limit on the amount they print.
Quantitative Easing.
Do you REALLY think that a YouTube movie caused a riot in multiple Islamic states? Lol.
Very good post. I think you make a nice point here.
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i repeat: fakk off ya fakkin board nazi.
i've been on the internet since compuserve and prodigy, dude. back when we used to use "bulletin boards" and a 14.4kbps modem was considered "high speed." if you can't take a little joshing around and butchered english, than you, mon ostie, are the one who has not been on the internet long enough.
i stand firm by my opinion that muslims are the most epic trollbait on the planet today. christians are a close second. atheists are a distant third.
As for myself, i have been around a long time here. Before compuserve my friend.
Anyhow, just because YOU think me being a board nazi is considered to have a impact on my experience, it doesnt. We have a difference of opinion there.
As for the youtube video being a deliberate act of distraction, this makes sense and i find it very interesting.
It reminds me of vietnam, being the sole reason of sending troops into a war that didnt involve them, meant increasing markets in the economy. It was all about making money. Wars make money, simple as that i guess.
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Sorry for this rant, but some american on another forum made a comment about the anti islamic video that was posted on Youtube last week and was like, why are those guys in the middle east getting so mad??.
I mean seriously what the fuck?.
I am not anti american, but honestly their government has a a lot to answer for.
They get involved in wars they have no reason to be in, and for what?. Either money or oil and afterwards the country is left in a fucking shambles every time.
Americans need to get a grip on their so called "foreign policy" bullshit and realise they dont actually have one.
No wonder most of the middle east is pissed of with america.
Sorry, just a point of view.
Lmao I'm american and I'm anti america! errrr well anti-brainwashed-america
Our government really blows they try to keep the average american as stupid and brainwashed as possible
Every year our education budgets get cut, yet military budget always increases theres trillions of dollars spent every year that they wont tell anyone what they're spending it on because its "classified" yet our roads are crumbling in and our postal service is dieing. Our bill of rights is a big joke thousands of people every year get beat down by our police and arrested for using their first amendment right. There have been cases where people have been sent to prison for 20 years for video taping corrupt police. Our prison system is a huge corrupt business where they try to get as many people as they can into jail for profit. 7.9% of sentenced prisoners in federal prisons on September 30, 2009 were in for violent crimes the rest were for drug charges or other nonviolent crimes.
I could go on and on and on about all the fucked up shit my government does but i'm gonna leave it at that for now since I have some stuff that needs to get done
America is turning into the next nazi germany but most of the people in this country are brainwashed to believe thats how things are supposed to be or they're in their own lil world and just don't care about anything else.
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Hi there marksum, your post is very interesting indeed.
I dont think its just the usa but uk also, do not forget its now a coalition force, so i guess everyone wants a piece of oil.
You are defiantly right about the roads being neglected. Every year here in the uk road works spring up all over the place, it seems, just as christmas approaches. Are there really problems with the roads or are they hoping we wont notice they are just making excuses for their big fat wage slips.
They are saying that there are so many deaths a year involving road workers and yet i have not heard or seen any evidence whatsoever of this. I am not paranoid, i just make sure i keep as up to date on local and global news when i can.
As for the army, I am just wondering what country they are going to hit next.
Supposedly we are in this massive economic crisis and im guessing its not going to be long before an oil rich country is going to be hit.
I can understand when people believe there are those who sit behind the curtains who a really in control, espeically when you have a pair like bush and blair illegally executing an invasion for the simple reason of oil, even though it was never publicly stated.
What lies down the road in the next 5 years or less, is anybody's guess.
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i repeat: fakk off ya fakkin board nazi.
i've been on the internet since compuserve and prodigy, dude. back when we used to use "bulletin boards" and a 14.4kbps modem was considered "high speed." if you can't take a little joshing around and butchered english, than you, mon ostie, are the one who has not been on the internet long enough.
i stand firm by my opinion that muslims are the most epic trollbait on the planet today. christians are a close second. atheists are a distant third.
As for myself, i have been around a long time here. Before compuserve my friend.
Anyhow, just because YOU think me being a board nazi is considered to have a impact on my experience, it doesnt. We have a difference of opinion there.
doood, take it easy. this isn't a pissing contest to see who's older or more eloquent. i wasn't trying to insult you, i know you're not a nazi...just messing around a little while I share my opinion. jokes, man.. jokes. sorry if i came off too strong, i just got this thick skin here from being on various message boards for so long. i think your expectations for the level of discourse to be had on silk road forums may be a tad bit too elevated.
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First off, I'm an American. I find it absolutely ridiculous that the media has been reporting this "video" as a major cause of the rioting. Here are my reasons:
- The Arab spring has been going on for years. How can you differentiate between the previous riots and this one?
- One of CNN's field reporters asked rioters whether or not they have heard of this video, most of them have not heard of it, and an even smaller percentage saw it.
- Most of the rioters are between the ages of 15-25. These riots are caused youth immaturity manifested in the form of violence. There were Riots in Vancouver after they lost a hockey game to Boston, there were riots in LA after the Lakers lost the championship. Kids will riot for the most stupid of reasons because they are looking for an excuse to riot. There is a song, prominent in the early 2000s called "Let's Go Riot" by Three Days Grace. This is an example of rebellious youth culture.
-- My point is, these riots aren't fueled by anger over a stupid video made by a stupid filmmaker; the fact that this man calls himself a filmmaker is more of an insult to Hollywood than it is to Islam. The Arab Spring has never been about Islam, it has been about freedom.
Why is the media, and the US government, attempting to dismiss these riots as Islamic rage over a video?
- There was a terrorist attack on the US embassy in Benghazi, originally, both Hillary Clinton and Obama dismissed this attack as a result of these "riots" even though local authorities informed the state department immediately after the attack that it was indeed a terrorist attack. Why? Because Obama's election is in two months. Having a terrorist attack on his watch would be disastrous. The US government manufactured the idea that some Youtube video caused riots, and in turn, those rioters that caused the explosion at the embassy killing the US ambassador.
Obama's logic behind this manufactured story:
- If rioters caused the explosion at the embassy, then terrorists did not. If terrorists did not attack the embassy, then Obama served his first term without a terrorist attack against the United States.
-- The problem is, the local authorities made it public that this was a terrorist attack, undermining the campaign's plan. But, Obama being a man made of Teflon, was able to come out clean, as always.
This is my opinion of what has been happening. Hopefully I am wrong.
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On "Muslim rage":
- Conservative Muslims have this idea that they are immune from criticism. This idea is ridiculous. These conservative Muslims caused a reporter in Italy to be put into their equivalent of the witness protection program because he depicted the prophet Muhammad in his magazine. The animated series "Southpark" was going to do a parody on Muhammad, but the channel which Southpark is on, Comedy Central, forbid Southpark from portraying Muhammad in such a manner. Similarly, the animated series "Family Guy" was going to depict Muhammad, but Fox, forbid Family guy from using Muhammad as a character in their series. In Scandinavia, a newspaper did a comic strip with Muhammad in it, the artists, the publisher, the newspaper employees, all received death threats. Westerners' have become so scared of offending Muslims that we are censoring our favorite programs, newspapers and magazines just to appease some irrational Muslims who hold the belief that their religion is immune to criticism. To those Muslims, I say this: Fuck you and your unrealistic ideals.
- That's not to say that the riots in the middle east are caused by Muslim rage from the video. As I said before, Most Muslims haven't seen it. They cannot be angry at something they haven't seen.
In conclusion:
Vote Ron Paul
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Sorry for this rant, but some american on another forum made a comment about the anti islamic video that was posted on Youtube last week and was like, why are those guys in the middle east getting so mad??.
I mean seriously what the fuck?.
I am not anti american, but honestly their government has a a lot to answer for.
They get involved in wars they have no reason to be in, and for what?. Either money or oil and afterwards the country is left in a fucking shambles every time.
Americans need to get a grip on their so called "foreign policy" bullshit and realise they dont actually have one.
No wonder most of the middle east is pissed of with america.
Sorry, just a point of view.
American's tend to confuse the notion of 'looking after the interests of the USA' with the systematic interference with the politics of weaker nations to create political chaos - in the context of which their corporations can move in and steal their resources.
To the USA it's looking after national interests, but to the rest of the world it's at best a gross abuse of power, at worst, plain evil.
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There's only so far you can push the blame on American/Israeli policy. No doubt the region is a lot worse off since the wars started, but who has really studied this in depth? The pop culture idea is that the war in Iraq is bad and was for oil.
Now that's a point of view and it may well be the case, but which of us have looked at all the lobbying interests in detail, followed all the politicians' histories and policy changes over the past few decades as well as studied in depth the formation of Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and the regimes of the region, and how they all affect each other in the bigger picture? Who knows in depth how the Islamic ideology has developed over time and where its roots lie; whether it is solely the religion to blame or if American foreign policy has exacerbated the issues to the point of it being the driving factor and not the attitudes of religiosity in the region? Who here is educated in the sectarian conflicts of the region and the history of the Sunni/Shia debate and how that has affected the area and of the plights that continue to befall many muslims in that region because of this trivial, banal difference in ideology? Who here knows the relationships between Saddam's Iraq and the other countries in the area, to a level of trade, diplomacy, military strategy and how that affected the politics and public opinion? Who here has actually taken an interest in the politics of the Middle East and its history, listened to all the UN speeches, followed all the diplomatic commentary, read every article about Western business interests, and put together a view of the big picture for themselves, out of a desire to really find the truth of the matter?
There comes a point where you just have to admit that we have a lot of opinions because we're presented with them in the culture, and we like to espouse points of view that are sympathetic to the beliefs we already have (distrust of government etc) out of a sense of righteousness.
Personally I don't feel like I know ANYWHERE LIKE NEAR enough on the HUGE history of the issue to have an opinion that I'm confident enough in to push on others.
Perhaps the war was started to secure business and oil interests.. perhaps it was started to rid Iraq of Saddam and to help them establish a democracy and a functioning civil society.. perhaps it has its roots in a Zionist run America and a conspiracy against the muslim world.. Perhaps there isn't really a conspiracy behind it and it was just a war mongering president's wish to be like his father and belong.
Truth is the level of study that is required to have an opinion on this that is actually somewhere approaching the truth is well, scholarly/professorial to say the least, and I honestly doubt anyone here genuinely, sincerely cares about it that much to take that mammoth task on.
We'd much rather say Iraq war = bad, or Iraq war = good and have people agree with us, aint that right?
I know,because I'm living in he Middle East.And Iraq war was very bad.There's no good war and there is no goodness in any war.
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I know,because I'm living in he Middle East.And Iraq war was very bad.There's no good war and there is no goodness in any war.
Well what about the 2nd world war? Should we just have let Hitler slowly conquer more and more of Europe? He lied about the Sudetenland and took more than he already forced his way into, and we all know what happened with Poland. By your standards we should have just stuck to pacifism? I'm not saying you're saying that, I'm just curious if you believe in just war in certain circumstances. If you do, then the question is which circumstances qualify.
Where abouts in the Middle East do you live? It's interesting because the Kurdish people, were incredibly happy that Saddam was ousted. They had suffered manfully under his reign. Many Iranians were pleased too. I'm not saying they're happy with the state of it now but I know for a fact and have spoken to many people that, just like during the first gulf war, breathed a sigh of relief to know that Saddam was no longer a threat to their sovereignty. I'd hazard a guess that the Kuwaitis weren't too annoyed by it either, to say the least.
I don't want to come across as pro-war because in general I'm really not. What I am doing is thinking ahead. In 20-30 years, will it turn out that getting rid of Saddam was a good idea? Will Iraq be a functioning, tolerant democracy with a strong economy and trade? Will the Middle East have moved away from this continuous capitulation to dictatorship and become a stable region once again?
Or will it prove to have been a terrible decision and made the region infinitely worse, irreparably worse perhaps? Point is I don't buy that it's as simple as "war is bad". And living in the Middle East certainly isn't a good enough reason to claim justification for that certainty. Many people who live in your region disagree with you, are they wrong to be glad of the American presence?
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I know,because I'm living in he Middle East.And Iraq war was very bad.There's no good war and there is no goodness in any war.
Well what about the 2nd world war? Should we just have let Hitler slowly conquer more and more of Europe? He lied about the Sudetenland and took more than he already forced his way into, and we all know what happened with Poland. By your standards we should have just stuck to pacifism? I'm not saying you're saying that, I'm just curious if you believe in just war in certain circumstances. If you do, then the question is which circumstances qualify.
Where abouts in the Middle East do you live? It's interesting because the Kurdish people, were incredibly happy that Saddam was ousted. They had suffered manfully under his reign. Many Iranians were pleased too. I'm not saying they're happy with the state of it now but I know for a fact and have spoken to many people that, just like during the first gulf war, breathed a sigh of relief to know that Saddam was no longer a threat to their sovereignty. I'd hazard a guess that the Kuwaitis weren't too annoyed by it either, to say the least.
I don't want to come across as pro-war because in general I'm really not. What I am doing is thinking ahead. In 20-30 years, will it turn out that getting rid of Saddam was a good idea? Will Iraq be a functioning, tolerant democracy with a strong economy and trade? Will the Middle East have moved away from this continuous capitulation to dictatorship and become a stable region once again?
Or will it prove to have been a terrible decision and made the region infinitely worse, irreparably worse perhaps? Point is I don't buy that it's as simple as "war is bad". And living in the Middle East certainly isn't a good enough reason to claim justification for that certainty. Many people who live in your region disagree with you, are they wrong to be glad of the American presence?
Americans didn't want to enter the 2nd World War. They were much opposed to it and WWI. It was only after Pearl Harbor that the gov had the support of the people. Pearl Harbor was not bombed by the Japanese without reason. We were cutting off the Japanese supply of oil and they were left with few options.
As Americans it is very easy for us to praise WWII as that is what boosted us to the top of the heap. What would have come of Germany had we not joined in? They would have been crushed by the Russians anyways, but if not, I doubt they would be any more of a cancerous bully to our planet then the USA is at the moment.
WWII is not some simple example of why war is sometimes necessary. American and British alike have a very skewed perspective of war. We love watching the bombs drop from our armchairs at home. We love beer commercials that talk about supporting our troops. We love plastering ribbons and flags all over our cars.
As to your comments on the Kurds: Do you know who gave Saddam the chemical weapons he used to gas large populations of Kurds? Yeah, America. We had given them to him to kill millions of Iranians, but he used some on a side project.
Some of the opinions here are very strong about the validity of sending young men to a far away land to kill other young men. The things we are doing are going to come back to bite us, as a nation. War is horrible.
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On WW2 first of all..
I don't know how you can claim with any certainty that Russia would have crushed Germany anyway. That seems like a nonsensical stretch at best, I'm sorry to have to say, and one that I can't really see how you can be basing on any sort of empirical evidence. Considering that to make such an assertion, you have to dismiss the initial events and begin somewhere mid-war in this hypothetical timeline without any regards for the real world causality of it.
The war was a certainty at the very least to involve Germany, the UK and France ever since the Gleiwitz debacle and the Polish defeat at Buzra. As it happens the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed before this ever happened anyway so I cannot see on what grounds you are formulating your opinion of the German-Soviet relationship.
Tell me, what were Britain and France supposed to do? Make nonsense of their pact with Poland, even after Hitler's betrayal of his already blackmailed conclusion of simply keeping the Sudetenland due to its "German" inhabitants and not the rest of the region which he then claimed his own? He could not be trusted in terms of treaties and it simply won't do to trace back to the treaty of Versailles and say "oh well it was our fault anyway" and ignore the actuality of the fact that this psychopath probably wouldn't have stopped when conflict was seen as inevitable, and it was JUST to forcefully stop him. Regardless of at what point the Americans got involved.
Nazi Germany would have been no more cancerous than the USA is at the moment? Jesus Christ, I've seen some masochism in my time but fucking hell.. Look, the USA is a corporate circle-jerk that has an aggressive military-industrial complex, no-one can possibly deny this. But it is also a place where you have relative freedom. And there is of course still racism.. But mainly, it's a pretty good place to live for a 21st century human, even if it is run by big business. And you're saying that this is just as cancerous as a government that openly sent millions of people on trains to be gassed and murdered? You can't possibly see these things as points of indifference. To say "the Russians would have beat him, but if not, it doesn't matter because America is just as bad" is absolutely ridiculous and considering it's a point of righteousness you're making, as in "America is as bad as Nazi Germany," - I don't think you can be morally serious and make such a statement, at least not with a straight face. That's a ridiculous comparison and one that you shouldn't be throwing around because it discredits any points of specificity concerning American foreign policy that you COULD actually make.
And this whole thing about us giving Saddam the weapons. Right, so because America gave him the weapons (under an entirely different context which I don't defend but I must stress was unrelated to the issue of Kurdistan and Northern Iraq), we then have no right to say "you can't use those weapons to indiscriminately kill hundreds of thousands of people in an attack devoid of any policy". Those weapons were sold to Saddam during the Iraq-Iran war. I'm not going to defend that, it was a dumb decision made by a fucking moron called Ronald Reagan but are we to say that because he sold the weapons to him, we have no right to criticize the later use of those weapons? Again, this is nonsense.
The same is true with Bin Laden. The US armed him under the context of allowing the Afghans the chance to fight against the Soviet invasion of their country (which they had every right to). He wasn't radicalized at that point and it wasn't obvious that he was then going to attack the US. The same people that say "The US armed Bin Laden" are the same people that will then turn around and say that 9/11 was an inside job and that Bin Laden doesn't even exist, almost in the same breath.
And I say this as someone that is by no means "comfortable with war". I don't sit at home gleefully watching bombs fall on foreign countries. What I do say is that I am nowhere near educated enough to have a view of the bigger picture. What I do know has come from my education and my own research over the years but in terms of the totality of the happenings on this planet I know NOTHING and neither do you.
It's time we all admitted that just because you've heard some soundbites from some anti-war journalists that you ascribe to or read some websites on history does not mean that you actually know anything.
And we can't simply elevate the idea of "peace" to a ridiculous castle-in-the-sky level. You can only have peace if everyone wants to be peaceful. You can't simply say "peace" in the face of some of the horrors of this world. If I put you in the middle of Liberia or the Congo with your wife and a few guns, you just see how long it is before you resort to killing someone.
Or are you going to say "let's have peace" when you're having your limbs cut off and watching her getting gang raped and beaten to a pulp? (this is not sensationalism, it happens daily). Truth is, sometimes you just have to kill the assholes, otherwise you are going to get killed yourself. Even Gandhi understood this much. And I do believe this applies to nation states too.
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Kappacino, did you drink some coffee earlier? How am I to respond to all of that? Succinctly I suppose...
You and I view America very differently. Yes, I see her as a cancerous bully on our planet with similarities to Nazi Germany.
It is interesting that you assume that since I do not approve of America's war-mongering that I must not be willing to defend myself or my family. Do you not see them as two distinctly different things?
9/11 was an inside job (like the Reichstag, Bay of Pigs, Gulf of Tonkin). I don't know what became of OBL but I am hesitant to believe the story of his death is accurate. Pictures or it didn't happen. Obviously, right!?! It really disturbs me that this wasn't more of a point of contention in our country.
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Kappacino, did you drink some coffee earlier? How am I to respond to all of that? Succinctly I suppose...
You and I view America very differently. Yes, I see her as a cancerous bully on our planet with similarities to Nazi Germany.
It is interesting that you assume that since I do not approve of America's war-mongering that I must not be willing to defend myself or my family. Do you not see them as two distinctly different things?
9/11 was an inside job (like the Reichstag, Bay of Pigs, Gulf of Tonkin). I don't know what became of OBL but I am hesitant to believe the story of his death is accurate. Pictures or it didn't happen. Obviously, right!?! It really disturbs me that this wasn't more of a point of contention in our country.
No, you did not disapprove of America's war mongering only, but war in general, as in the Nazi case. If you see similarities between America and Nazi Germany then surely you must think that WW2 was just! I was simply showing you that in certain cases, such as the Nazi situation which you argued against, war is just, and if anything, desirable (compared to the consequences if pacifism is taken)
Out of curiosity where are you from? I'm not pro-America by the way. The government I mean (I dont think anyone here is). The country itself is an amazing place. I'd just like to think I'm at least being realistic about it. For example there is no persuasive evidence for the idea that 9/11 was committed by the US government/Mossad. I have heard literally all the arguments from both sides and if you're going to quote discredited scientists talking about thermite, and say things like "there's a frame missing on the pentagon tape. therefore missile" then I've heard it all before. But seriously I'm interested in what evidence you have for this notion.
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doood, take it easy. this isn't a pissing contest to see who's older or more eloquent. i wasn't trying to insult you, i know you're not a nazi...just messing around a little while I share my opinion. jokes, man.. jokes. sorry if i came off too strong, i just got this thick skin here from being on various message boards for so long. i think your expectations for the level of discourse to be had on silk road forums may be a tad bit too elevated.
Yeah no worries bro, sorry about that. I do tend to get a bit wound up sometimes.
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doood, take it easy. this isn't a pissing contest to see who's older or more eloquent. i wasn't trying to insult you, i know you're not a nazi...just messing around a little while I share my opinion. jokes, man.. jokes. sorry if i came off too strong, i just got this thick skin here from being on various message boards for so long. i think your expectations for the level of discourse to be had on silk road forums may be a tad bit too elevated.
Yeah no worries bro, sorry about that. I do tend to get a bit wound up sometimes.
this is what i like about this forum. at the end of the conversation we all get high, shake hands, and stop caring about things so much :)
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I'd recommend everyone to watch
Madeleine Albright - 60 Minutes - (on Youtube)
in which she justifies the sanctions that caused the DEATH of 500,000 innocent Iraqi children in the 90's!
That's some fuckin foreign policy >:(
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I know,because I'm living in he Middle East.And Iraq war was very bad.There's no good war and there is no goodness in any war.
Well what about the 2nd world war? Should we just have let Hitler slowly conquer more and more of Europe? He lied about the Sudetenland and took more than he already forced his way into, and we all know what happened with Poland. By your standards we should have just stuck to pacifism? I'm not saying you're saying that, I'm just curious if you believe in just war in certain circumstances. If you do, then the question is which circumstances qualify.
Where abouts in the Middle East do you live? It's interesting because the Kurdish people, were incredibly happy that Saddam was ousted. They had suffered manfully under his reign. Many Iranians were pleased too. I'm not saying they're happy with the state of it now but I know for a fact and have spoken to many people that, just like during the first gulf war, breathed a sigh of relief to know that Saddam was no longer a threat to their sovereignty. I'd hazard a guess that the Kuwaitis weren't too annoyed by it either, to say the least.
I don't want to come across as pro-war because in general I'm really not. What I am doing is thinking ahead. In 20-30 years, will it turn out that getting rid of Saddam was a good idea? Will Iraq be a functioning, tolerant democracy with a strong economy and trade? Will the Middle East have moved away from this continuous capitulation to dictatorship and become a stable region once again?
Or will it prove to have been a terrible decision and made the region infinitely worse, irreparably worse perhaps? Point is I don't buy that it's as simple as "war is bad". And living in the Middle East certainly isn't a good enough reason to claim justification for that certainty. Many people who live in your region disagree with you, are they wrong to be glad of the American presence?
Yes I think war may be an option in some cases or rather it may be the only option and that's the rule of life.Every living thing decide to fight back after a critical point.Important thing is, not starting the fight for any reason.But if it's already started,then there's no option unless respond.I'm not a pacifist,it's doesn't correspond to nature.
In Turkey in the Middle East,because of that I know many things about Kurdish people.There are more Kurdish population in Turkey than any other countries.I don't have a problem with Kurdish people personally and you are right,most of them are ready to wave USA flag or any flag they can use...but they don't be aware be in use and you know what,there's a word in Turkish for that;''Don't enter the nuptial chamber with someone else's cock''.I think you understand what it means,if you want to own something(own land in this case); you should deserve it first.
About the dictators like Hitler,Saddam,Mussolini,Franco,Salazar,Pinochet,Suharto and many more...they haven't existed by themselves,first of all you should think about this a bit I guess.By the way I don't ignore the inner dynamics of related countries but there are someones use always weaker points of countries for their advantages.They are not countries,they are just decision makers,they don't have any loyalty to any country unlike you.
I know there are some people around here aren't being aware of manipulations or aren't worrying about military intervention.But most of them doing these due to their naivety.Hospitality is a very important part of our culture,you can see this everywhere here if you may come here one day,I have met with many people from Europe and USA they have astonished from this hospitality.However there's a limit of this hospitality,for example Turkish War of Independence or many other independence wars of other nations.
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i repeat: fakk off ya fakkin board nazi.
i've been on the internet since compuserve and prodigy, dude. back when we used to use "bulletin boards" and a 14.4kbps modem was considered "high speed." if you can't take a little joshing around and butchered english, than you, mon ostie, are the one who has not been on the internet long enough.
i stand firm by my opinion that muslims are the most epic trollbait on the planet today. christians are a close second. atheists are a distant third.
As for myself, i have been around a long time here. Before compuserve my friend.
Anyhow, just because YOU think me being a board nazi is considered to have a impact on my experience, it doesnt. We have a difference of opinion there.
As for the youtube video being a deliberate act of distraction, this makes sense and i find it very interesting.
It reminds me of vietnam, being the sole reason of sending troops into a war that didnt involve them, meant increasing markets in the economy. It was all about making money. Wars make money, simple as that i guess.
As for me.......1995, 14.4k modem and an oldskool e-mail address that was something like 234532@compuserve.com. Ah....takes me back. My PC at the time had a massive 850mb hard drive.
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Those people who make fun of Muhammad and then go into hiding are pussies and faggots. Unless you live in Saudi Arabia then the chances of anything happening to you are minimal. More people are killed in the United States by police then by terrorist. Be more scared of the police.
And fuck everyone in washington d.c and all their phony bullshit wars. A bunch of cock-sucking faggots run the damn country.
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i repeat: fakk off ya fakkin board nazi.
i've been on the internet since compuserve and prodigy, dude. back when we used to use "bulletin boards" and a 14.4kbps modem was considered "high speed." if you can't take a little joshing around and butchered english, than you, mon ostie, are the one who has not been on the internet long enough.
i stand firm by my opinion that muslims are the most epic trollbait on the planet today. christians are a close second. atheists are a distant third.
As for myself, i have been around a long time here. Before compuserve my friend.
Anyhow, just because YOU think me being a board nazi is considered to have a impact on my experience, it doesnt. We have a difference of opinion there.
As for the youtube video being a deliberate act of distraction, this makes sense and i find it very interesting.
It reminds me of vietnam, being the sole reason of sending troops into a war that didnt involve them, meant increasing markets in the economy. It was all about making money. Wars make money, simple as that i guess.
As for me.......1995, 14.4k modem and an oldskool e-mail address that was something like 234532@compuserve.com. Ah....takes me back. My PC at the time had a massive 850mb hard drive.
damn dude, almost a gig in 1995? that really was big ballin back then. i bet that computer had a cd-rom drive too, eh? and let me guess, it was a 486 processor?
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damn dude, almost a gig in 1995? that really was big ballin back then. i bet that computer had a cd-rom drive too, eh? and let me guess, it was a 486 processor?
If it has a 850 mb hard disk it may be pentium 75 or 90 I guess or maybe 100.Mine was a 486dx4-100 in year 95 and it has a 540 mb hard disk,4 mb ram and no cd-rom of course.
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As for me.......1995, 14.4k modem and an oldskool e-mail address that was something like 234532@compuserve.com. Ah....takes me back. My PC at the time had a massive 850mb hard drive.
Those were the days mate. I almost miss those slow connection speeds.