Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: TommyG on April 19, 2012, 06:08 pm
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There is clearly a strong on growing interest in GHB here on SR. I have been sharing a draft of this FAQ with some customers and I am posting it here to improve access to it. My goal is to provide some basic information to the new user, and a forum for further discussion.
INTRODUCTION
WHAT IS GHB?
HOW DOES IT FEEL?
HOW LONG DOES IT LAST?
HOW MUCH SHOULD I TAKE?
WHAT ELSE COULD HAPPEN?
WHAT SAFETY PRECAUTIONS SHOULD I TAKE?
HOW DOES FOOD IMPACT IT?
CAN I TAKE IT WITH ALCHOHOL?
WHAT IF SOMEONE OVERDOSES (FALLS ASLEEP) ON GHB?
REALLY, HOW MUCH SHOULD I TAKE?
BASELINE CONCENTRATIONS FROM SOURCES
IS GHB THE SAME AS XYREM? CAN I USE IT AS A REPLACEMENT?
WHERE CAN I GET MORE INFORMATION?
INTRODUCTION
GHB (Gamma Hydroxybuteric Acid) is a wonderful chemical with a few downsides. It effects are usually highly enjoyable. However, because of its narrow dosage curve and varying concentrations, overdoses are very common. While generally harmless, overdoses can be scary and no fun. This FAQ is provided to offer basic information to the new user. Some of the content is pulled directly or indirectly from EROWID and other reliable sources. It will not cover all aspects of the chemical, and I encourage people to do their own additional research. It will be updated over time.
WHAT IS GHB?
GHB is naturally present in the human body. When present in high amounts, it temporarily inhibits the release of dopamine in the brain, causing euphoric effects. GHB also stimulates pituitary growth hormone (GH) release, hence its popularity in the body building community. GHB is used clinically to treat narcolepsy, is used as an aid to childbirth (in France), and to treat alcoholism.
HOW DOES IT FEEL?
Most recreational users find that GHB induces a pleasant state of relaxation and tranquility. Frequent effects are placidity, sensuality, mild euphoria, and a tendency to verbalize. Anxieties and inhibitions tend to dissolve into a feeling of emotional warmth, wellbeing, and pleasant drowsiness. Higher levels feature greater giddiness, silliness, and interference with mobility and verbal coherence, and maybe even dizziness. Even higher doses usually induce sleep. There is minimal “come down” or after-effects.
HOW LONG DOES IT LAST?
Onset : 10 - 20 minutes
Duration : ~1 hour, up to 3 hours
Normal After Effects : 2 - 4 hours
HOW MUCH SHOULD I TAKE?:
A “typical” dose for a pleasant and fun evening is 2 - 3g. However, dosage varies greatly from person to person, and concentrations of liquid GHB can vary significantly. SMALL INCREASES IN THE AMOUNT INGESTED LEAD TO SIGNIFICANT INTENSIFICATION OF THE EFFECT. I recommend starting with 2g or less and working from there by adding (or decreasing) ¼ - ½ gram. Is worth the time to figure out personally how much is a light buzz, how much is a strong buzz, and how much is too much for you.
Oral GHB Dosages:
Light .5 - 1.5 g (some relaxation)
Common 1 - 2.5 g (relaxation, mild euphoria)
Strong 2 - 4.0 g (heavy relaxation, strong euphoria, potential dizziness)
Can Induce Heavy Sleep 2.5 – 5+ g
Liquid GHB can come in widely varying concentrations – from almost 2 grams per ml to ½ g per ml or less. It is important to talk to your vendor about the strength of your GHB. Ideally, you should know *your * dosage in grams of GHB and the specific strength of your product. Regardless of the source, I recommend making a dilution of 1g / tsp. and managing your dosage from there. Detailed information on Concentrations and Dilutions is provided in a following post.
WHAT ELSE COULD HAPPEN?
Nothing – This is common if a person takes too little or has a lot of food in their stomach
Nausea – Nausea is a common side effect. Some (a small %) people get nauseous every time they take GHB. Some get nauseous occasionally. Most people have no problem with it.
Sleep – The most common side effect of taking too much. See the safety information below.
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WHAT SAFETY PRECAUTIONS SHOULD I TAKE?
1) Color your GHB so that it is not mistaken for anything else. Some people recommend blue.
2) Keep your GHB in a container which can not be mistaken for a drinking container.
3) Keep the concentration relatively low. I recommend 1g per teaspoon.
4) Measure carefully. Pre-measure your doses if necessary.
5) Don't mix with alcohol
6) Use the buddy system. Be sure your friends are aware of what you are taking.
7) Discuss with your friends what do to when an overdose occurs.
(More good info here: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ghb/ghb_info6.shtml)
WHAT IF SOMEONE OVERDOSES (FALLS ASLEEP) ON GHB?
G overdoses are common and are almost always harmless. However, they can be very scary. When someone takes too much and falls asleep from G they can be almost impossible to rouse. In addition, their breathing and pulse may become very shallow. If you are with someone who overdoses and falls asleep do NOT freak out. Check their breathing, turn them on their side (a precautionary measure in case they vomit), then sit with them until they wake up in 1-2 hours. After all, they’re your friend, and you would want them to do the same for you.
If the person has taken other drugs, particularly alcohol or other depressants, keep a *very close* eye on them. Do not NOT freak out, but trust your gut, and get help immediately if you think they’re really in trouble.
CAN I TAKE IT WITH ALCHOHOL?
NO NO NO!. OK, it’s a free(ish) world. You can do whatever you want - but G + alcohol is a very bad idea. Taking GHB with alcohol causes dramatically cumulative effects and increases the likelihood of nausea and vomiting. It will put you too sleep (no fun!) and could cause vomiting (no fun!) and potential aspirating on your vomit or other serious medical issues.) (No fun! No fun! No fun!) In full disclosure, I know of a couple very experienced users that greatly enjoy a glass of wine or a beer while on G. However, this practice will put 9/10 people to sleep or worse (no fun!) It’s your trip, but I advise against it.
HOW DOES FOOD IMPACT IT?
The amount of food in your stomach can *significantly* impact GHB’s effects. If you take GHB right after a meal it often has no effect at all.
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REALLY, HOW MUCH SHOULD I TAKE?
1) Check with your source on the concentration and recommended dosage.
2) Make your own dilution of 1g /teaspoon.
3) Measure and dose from there. If you are new, start with 2g or less and adjust by ¼ or ½ g as necessary.
GHB typically comes in a liquid and concentrations can vary quite a bit. Plus, they often come in high concentrations that are hard to measure. Regardless of your source, I strongly recommend diluting your G to a concentration of 1 GRAM / TEASPOON, and using this for dosing.
(1 Teaspoon = 5ml)
Basic Oral GHB Dosages:
Light .5 - 1.5 g (minimal effect, some relaxation)
Common 1 - 2.5 g (relaxation, mild euphoria)
Strong 2 - 4.0 g (heavy relaxation, strong euphoria, potential loss of muscle control & dizziness,)
Can Induce Heavy Sleep 2.5 – 5+ g
Once you make your 1g/teaspoon dilution, you can easily dose appropriately:
1g GHB = 5ml = 1 teaspoon
2g GHB = 10ml = 2 teaspoons
3g GHB = 15ml = 3 teaspoons
I recommend the 1g / teaspoon concentration for a number of reasons. Everyone has a teaspoon around so it’s easy to do. You can accurately adjust the dosage from person to person or for yourself based on your mood. Finally, if this becomes your standard, it is very easy to do proper dosing even if you get G from multiple sources in various concentrations. All your friends will know how it works.
BASELINE CONCENTRATIONS FROM SOURCES:
Xyrem: .5 grams / ml
TommyG Liquid Concentrate: 1g / ml.
TommyG Powder: A gram is a gram.
Vendors: Let me know the concentration of your GHB in grams / ml and I will add it here. You can reply to this post or PM me and I will make the update.
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IS GHB THE SAME AS XYREM? CAN I USE IT AS A REPLACEMENT?
Xyrem is simply big-pharma’s branded GHB. This is the same chemical – GHB is the “generic” so to speak. Xyrem comes in a liquid concentration of .5 gram/ ml
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PRO TIPS
Pro tip #1: Get some kids medicine spoons from your local pharmacy. They accurately measure out 2 – 2.5 teaspoons. Easy-peasy.
Pro tip #2: When you go out make a few “single shots” in 5 hour energy bottles or graduated test tubes. Do *not* try to guesstimate a swig from the bottle.
Pro tip #3: Wear a watch. You will want more in 45 minutes. You need to wait 60.
WHERE CAN I GET MORE INFORMATION?
Don’t take my word for any of this. Do some more homework:
Erowid’s GHB FAQ: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ghb/ghb_faq.shtml
Basics: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ghb/ghb_basics.shtml
Dosage: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ghb/ghb_dose.shtml
Safety Precautions: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ghb/ghb_info6.shtml
Wikipedia Overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid
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The only issue I had with GHB is that it goes bad very quickly in solid form. But it's very easy to make too.
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Question: When using ghb at about 4 grams, is it common practice to take something else to cause the onset of sleep, like ambien or something? GHB is great for deep sleep but I am having problems falling asleep. Thanks
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Can you speak more about redosing throughout the night? My average dose is 3g, would it be good to redose 1g every hour to keep the buzz going? I've never taken more than one dose in a night because I know the feeling of taking too much and I don't want to risk that in public.
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If your average dose is 3g, you should be safe bumping it with 2.5 grams every hour or so. The trick is to wait the full hour or more - wear a watch or set the timer on your phone if necessary. I do not know if a 1g would have much of an effect, but it certainly should not cause any problems.
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I must be really light weight or something. I started trying .5 and it was like I took a xanax or kpin. 1g seemed like a couple beers and weed. Trying 2g was almost too much for me, then I passed out pretty quick. 1.7g is now my starting dose, it's like right before the insta-pass out for me but I can still stay awake enough.
It's weird because from what I've seen 5g is more that limit and 2g is a regular dose. I'd really advise figuring out your dosing, start small and work your way up.
Also G is the best at boosting your high. 0.25g is enough for weed to practically double it's potency. Basically 30cents and you can make the shittiest schwag into the finest chronic. Then again, maybe most people would have to take .5g since I'm lightweight.
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Fbu - Good on you for starting small and working up. That's is one of the things about G - people's doses can vary quite a bit, and does not necessarily correlate to size or other tolerances. I know a huge guy that can pound beer and take sheets of acid - yet 2 grams of G puts him away. I also know a small woman that regularly takes 3 grams to get get a buzz.
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I asked you the same question via PM but I feel that the answer might be useful for others. What is the difference between GHB made from KOH versus GHB made from NaOH? Upon which is your GHB based?
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A new question. I've made a 1g/tsp solution in water. Does it keep at room temp, or must I keep it in the fridge? Will the GHB precipitate if the solution is chilled sufficiently? (And what's the freezing point of the solution, if you know that?)
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Why do people keep saying it "goes bad" in powdered form as opposed to liquid? That doesn't quite make sense for me yet.
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Why do people keep saying it "goes bad" in powdered form as opposed to liquid? That doesn't quite make sense for me yet.
It's hygroscopic(sp?) so it draws moisture in and the power becomes small droplets of water. Towards the end of a baggie it starts getting really sticky.
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you should add that if you take it more than 2 days in a row you WILL feel withdrawal symptoms.
these symptoms are pure HELL. I did it more than 2 days and lets just say I felt SUPER SHITTY. It was worse than heroin withdrawals...
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Opi - I have never heard of significant withdrawal from GHB. Lack of withdrawal is one of the hallmarks of G. Even people that have had party weekends, taking it 24/7 for two days report minimal after-effect. Everyone is different, so maybe your body reacted uniquely. More than likely though, it was something else - perhaps an interaction with other pharms/chems? Or maybe even you happened to catch a bug or something that felt like withdrawl?
I would be interested to hear from anyone else with a similar experience.
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Why do people keep saying it "goes bad" in powdered form as opposed to liquid? That doesn't quite make sense for me yet.
It's hygroscopic(sp?) so it draws moisture in and the power becomes small droplets of water. Towards the end of a baggie it starts getting really sticky.
That's right. If you store it in powder form, be sure it is well sealed and squeeze any extra air out.
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I ran through 50gs of Tommy's G in 3 days. Come the second day I was doing 5-6gs per dose. Went cold turkey this monday because school started again and I have absolutely 0 withdrawal symptoms. And I haven't done any other drugs other than nicotine.
I fucking love TommyG man. Three 50g orders all went through flawlessly. Received in 2 days each time with extremely satisfying packaging. This is such an amazing drug and has many great aspects for me since I'm on felony drug probation(don't test for G unless there's a strong suspicion) and since I'm not very fond of drinking. Have had nothing but good experiences with the G man Tommy. Only issue i've ever had is ODing and passing out when I had someone picking me up to go to the club the other week lol He was apparently banging the shit out of my door angrily while I was snoozin' on the couch lolol.
I love that sensation that G gives me when I'm waking up from like a 6g dose lol Feels like I'm gravitating almost. I took 10mg of melatonin before my last G dose too and I had some ridiculously cool dreams. I can't remember anything about them but I do remember that it was awesome because I woke up with the fattest, cheesiest smile on my face and it stuck for 30 mins.
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Opi - I have never heard of significant withdrawal from GHB. Lack of withdrawal is one of the hallmarks of G. Even people that have had party weekends, taking it 24/7 for two days report minimal after-effect. Everyone is different, so maybe your body reacted uniquely. More than likely though, it was something else - perhaps an interaction with other pharms/chems? Or maybe even you happened to catch a bug or something that felt like withdrawl?
I would be interested to hear from anyone else with a similar experience.
not being able to sleep and brain zaps are def not catching a bug syptoms... but def are GHB withdrawals..
ask wumg00 he know's a thing or two about GHB withdrawals.... and then benzo withdrawals.....
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Opi - I have never heard of significant withdrawal from GHB. Lack of withdrawal is one of the hallmarks of G. Even people that have had party weekends, taking it 24/7 for two days report minimal after-effect. Everyone is different, so maybe your body reacted uniquely. More than likely though, it was something else - perhaps an interaction with other pharms/chems? Or maybe even you happened to catch a bug or something that felt like withdrawl?
I would be interested to hear from anyone else with a similar experience.
not being able to sleep and brain zaps are def not catching a bug syptoms... but def are GHB withdrawals..
ask wumg00 he know's a thing or two about GHB withdrawals.... and then benzo withdrawals.....
What kind of doses were you doing and how many days is more than 2 days? What kind of withdrawal symptoms were you having? Cause saying it was worse than benzo withdrawals is a huge statement. ???
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I said it was worse than HEROIN withdrawals NOT benzo's
go re-read what I wrote.
3 days, I did about 50 ml, 10 ml = passed out.
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It seems opi is a bit sensitive to GHB. I just did 2g two nights ago and 2.5g last night and I've no withdrawal symptoms whatsoever. It's quite mild.
I am still trying to find my dose. I found 2.5g to be fun, about equivalent to 4-5 shots for me. But I want stronger!
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yeah, see I like blacked my self out 3-4 times, it was like ALL day/night thing.. I did 50 ml over 3 days.. and this was STRONG ghb... the night I didn't do any I couldn't sleep and had those fucked up benzo brain zaps. where you just want to blow your brains out cause its so fucking painful.. Like everytime it would happen my entire body would be twitching like I could not stay still. I had taken like 4 of those extra strength melatonin sub-lingual tablets and i barely slept for a hour I think it was 10 or 15 mg /each..
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yeah, see I like blacked my self out 3-4 times, it was like ALL day/night thing.. I did 50 ml over 3 days.. and this was STRONG ghb... the night I didn't do any I couldn't sleep and had those fucked up benzo brain zaps. where you just want to blow your brains out cause its so fucking painful.. Like everytime it would happen my entire body would be twitching like I could not stay still. I had taken like 4 of those extra strength melatonin sub-lingual tablets and i barely slept for a hour I think it was 10 or 15 mg /each..
It's tough to figure out what the differential here is when you had a liquid dose, and I was taking Tommy's solid and putting it in a 1g/tsp solution like he recommends. But a teaspoon is about 5ml, so if you had the same concentration then you were taking a fairly hefty dose for most, let alone for the intolerant. And you said yours was strong, yeah? Probably even stronger than 1g/tsp.
But that's all conjecture. It sounds like DRI action was particularly off-putting to you. I know that if I take GHB about 3 hours before bedtime it's actually HARDER to sleep rather than 2 hours before, in which it's easier to sleep. Weird!
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I said it was worse than HEROIN withdrawals NOT benzo's
go re-read what I wrote.
3 days, I did about 50 ml, 10 ml = passed out.
yea my bad mixed up what you said up there with what you said about wumg
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u shouldnt be able to do 50 grams of ghb in two days if its pure.
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I'm really unfamiliar with GHB. (Other than this guide) Do you take it just for the effects or also as a steroid to increase muscle mass etc...
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Meh.. I had a mixed experience with tommys ghb, I hadnt eaten at all the day I got the package, so I was expecting it to work well. Took 2g, felt mildly tipsy ish, another 2g 45 mins later (i know i know wait an hour), felt the same for another hour.. so after that I took 5g and just felt tipsy again, so after about 20 mins i took the rest (total of 15g) and finally I felt really really good, euphoria and all, unfortunately I had to do a ton to feel like that.
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u shouldnt be able to do 50 grams of ghb in two days if its pure.
it was friday - sunday. Monday was a long weekend.. so when I was trying to sleep on monday night I could not...
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So I still don't understand how water "ruins" GHB. If we're diluting it in water anyway, why would it matter that it's hygroscopic? That might make it harder to handle but it doesn't mean the actual molecule is degrading. Am I missing something? The conventional wisdom is that it "goes bad" when not diluted.
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So I still don't understand how water "ruins" GHB. If we're diluting it in water anyway, why would it matter that it's hygroscopic? That might make it harder to handle but it doesn't mean the actual molecule is degrading. Am I missing something? The conventional wisdom is that it "goes bad" when not diluted.
Who said water ruins it? The only thing is moisture can make u lose some powder but not at all ruin it. But there is a certain way to make ghb like the kind i make to where it is always liquid its never powder its a different feeling than the powder more smack u in the face u guys should try im not trying to downgrade tommy at all.
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I would just like to add my own warning:
A few years ago when GBL was legal to order in the UK, myself and my brother used to do quite a bit. We soon learned how to convert it to NaGHB by using sodium hydroxide. We would mix 50g of the solid NaGHB in 500ml water bottles, so 10-20ml was a dose.
At first we thought it was a wonder drug, like a kind of euphoric sedation that made you horny as hell! However, we soon began to redose(taking the next dose as soon as the last one finishes) and before long we were dosing G every 2-3 hours 24 hrs a day and night, taking a large dose to sleep.
When the first batch (125ml of GBL so whatever that converts to) ran out we got a nasty surprise. We had only been dosing for a week but the withdrawal symptoms were intense and frightening: Very high blood pressure and heart rate; manic and obsessive thinking, sweating, shaking and auditory hallucinations.,delusions. My brother was shakiong so badly he was vibrating...he looked blurred. It was bizzarre. Fortunately it only lasted about 24 hrs on this occaision.
The next time we ordered some we vowed to be more careful, and make sure we took regular breaks. Alas, we all know what happens to such intentions! This time we found the dependency developed even quicker....(like many addictive drugs, it seems your body 'learns' to become dependant, and it happens quicker each time).
Please understand I am not describing some 'psychological' comedown. I have been an opiate addict for many years(currently treated with subutex) and I have gone through heroin withdrawal many times. This was perhaps not as bad but in many ways more frightening as we didn't know what to expect.
GHB acts on the GABA receptors the same as benzodiazapenes and so the dependency is similar to a short acting benzo like Xanax. GHB is also a strange and not well, understood drug, but what is well understood is it is physically addictive!
I am surprised from reading this thread that many of you seem unaware of this. I thought this debate had been played out years ago. At the time of our experimentation there was a lot of people on the Bluelight web forum debating whether or not it was addictive, but as time went on and more and more people had bad experiences the consensus was reached that yes, it is physically addictive.
I'm not trying to spoil anyones fun, in moderation it is a very pleasant and safe drug, but its important to be aware of the risks. Some people seem to be able to guzzle the stuff without ever feeling any unpleasantness when they stop. I'm not sure why this is.
If you are unfortunate enough to find yourself in the unpleasant state of G withdrawal, valium or opiates can help somewhat, but strangely, we found the best medicine to be Diphenhydramine (Nytol, Benadryl)! We never could work out how but this otherwise useless drug really reduces the withdrawal symptoms.
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baclofen helps with withdrawal... benzos won't hack it, as above, since they're gaba-a agonists.
also good for management of phenibut withdrawal.
at least most ICU staff know about baclofen for GHB withdrawal delirium and/or seizures now -not so much the phenibut, though it's starting to get some chatter/coverage now as well at the conferences.
when baclofen works and is started/timed right, it's a thing of freaking beauty, it is just a slick withdrawal/transition.
the sleep med docs have started to give their Xyrem patients a backup "in case of emergency" rx for baclofen around here; we had some weather-related shipping problems and there were delays in receiving orders.
obligatory case report with lots of helpful links:
hxxp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2630388/
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I would really strongly suggest you don't replace a GHB addiction with a benzo addiction.
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Yep I was trying to remember what those two drugs were called. I never tried them myself but had heard they were effective for severe G withdrawals.
However these are powerful and potentially addictive drugs in their own right. If you overdo them there is a real danger you are just transferring your dePendence to another drug. As you say a dose or two could be very helpful.
If you have been dependant on G for a few months I would suggest you need medical help to manage withdrawal. If just a week or two you're best just going to bed and shaking and sweating with some nytol.... It won't last too long.
As far as replacing with a benzo addiction, that's pretty much what I meant. Just a couple of Valium to ease you off, in the same way you might replace a short acting benzo with a long acting one to help come off.
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Just to clarify (as I haven't made that very clear) I am agreeing with you Fio.
;D it certainly would be a bad idea to replace the GHB with any other addictive drug.
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clarification:
baclofen is helpful for withdrawal-associated delirium (from ghb or phenibut) which is sufficiently severe that inpatient hospitalization is required. this is useful to know if you or anyone you care about ends up in that situation.
baclofen is not benign and, on the balance, it isn't something I'd probably recommend cross-tapering at home. if there's enough GHB/phenibut involved that it's a true-blue delirium, then it's worth going in. there are a lot of things that can be managed at home but this can get pretty weird when it goes bad.
being aware of baclofen, though, and being able to bring it up with the house staff, may save you days and also undertreatment.
especially with relatively unfamiliar drugs/withdrawal syndromes - any information from which they can start will usually be appreciated.
there is some anecdata out there about people using phenibut to self-taper off of GHB. this strikes me as a spectacularly bad idea given the surprisingly rapid tolerance seen with phenibut and the fact that it has a similar withdrawal phenomenon.
in fact the idea of anyone doing this gives me the willies, I probably worry too much, but I have seen some bad withdrawal situations now, and the idea of *accelerating* that - uck.
I agree with Fio 100%, going from frying pan to fire is not better, especially given the prolonged washout for ghb discontinuation, just right for a brain to latch on to a benzo.
good to know about the diphenhydramine for milder symptoms, that helps.
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well i can tell u all that im a person who unfortunatly is addicted to ghb i probably drink a oz a day which of my g is only 6grams but 2grams of my stuff and ur karped out asleep so i am doing alot i karp out probably twice a day and now that my body is used to getting restorative sleep on ghb i cant sleep at nite at all.
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Storage?
Liquid?
powder?
in the freezer?
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Powder can be stored in a tupperware container. Best to dissolve it in liquid and store it like that though.
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I had success mixing it with water (1g/tsp) in a small brown glass bottle which I kept in my fridge. Added 2 drops of blue food dye to keep it safe!
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Has anyone had Evilution's GHB?
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Great FAQ! Thanks for helping to keep everyone informed :)