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Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: SealTeam6 on July 11, 2013, 02:06 am

Title: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: SealTeam6 on July 11, 2013, 02:06 am
I have run into many people throughout my life that find it normal to judge themselves above other people because of a college education, however I have found it to be the opposite.  Some of the most intelligent people I have ever met are individuals that most of society look down on, the hustlers out there, the homeless, etc.  In my opinion believing yourself to be superior because of an education given to you from an institution and looking down on others blocks your mind off from attaining more knowledge.  Basically I think underestimating any other persons intelligence proves that one is not so intelligent after all.  What do you think?
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: bluehorn on July 11, 2013, 02:38 am
I have run into many people throughout my life that find it normal to judge themselves above other people because of a college education, however I have found it to be the opposite.  Some of the most intelligent people I have ever met are individuals that most of society look down on, the hustlers out there, the homeless, etc.  In my opinion believing yourself to be superior because of an education given to you from an institution and looking down on others blocks your mind off from attaining more knowledge.  Basically I think underestimating any other persons intelligence proves that one is not so smart after all.  What do you think?

Having a higher education is worthless without the practical/life experience.

Personally, the more experience I get, the more humble I get as well. Its similar to the more you learn the more your realize how little you actually know. Any pseudo-intelligent person would agree. If not they are either intelligent but arrogant, or just not intelligent. But that is just my opinion.

Some have an education in life (id like to call that as being street smart) and some have the traditional academic one. While attaining my degree I felt as if I was becoming dumb, almost indoctrinated by the text books. It is going to take some time for me to fully recover from that.

Just my 2 cents

Regards,
bluehorn
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: XxWINxX94x23 on July 11, 2013, 02:56 am
Street smart vs. book smart. You gotta be a little bit of both to succeed in my opinion.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: Rastaman Vibration on July 11, 2013, 03:39 am
I have run into many people throughout my life that find it normal to judge themselves above other people because of a college education, however I have found it to be the opposite.  Some of the most intelligent people I have ever met are individuals that most of society look down on, the hustlers out there, the homeless, etc.  In my opinion believing yourself to be superior because of an education given to you from an institution and looking down on others blocks your mind off from attaining more knowledge.  Basically I think underestimating any other persons intelligence proves that one is not so smart after all.  What do you think?

Another great topic, ST6! I couldn't agree more on this. In my field, which it pains me to say I can't reveal, there's a lot of this going on. That is, college educated snobs looking down on those who are just as capable as they are, but just lacking the diploma. In my opinion, the dipolma is just a piece of paper. You can't teach intelligence no matter how much money the student is willing to spend. (And its usually those with the expensive degrees that are the snobbiest about it.)

Getting a college degree can be a valuable asset for the right person (in terms of advancing knowledge), however, we have to remeber that some of the most briliant minds in the history of human civilization do not have college degrees!
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: SealTeam6 on July 11, 2013, 04:58 am
I have run into many people throughout my life that find it normal to judge themselves above other people because of a college education, however I have found it to be the opposite.  Some of the most intelligent people I have ever met are individuals that most of society look down on, the hustlers out there, the homeless, etc.  In my opinion believing yourself to be superior because of an education given to you from an institution and looking down on others blocks your mind off from attaining more knowledge.  Basically I think underestimating any other persons intelligence proves that one is not so smart after all.  What do you think?

Having a higher education is worthless without the practical/life experience.

Personally, the more experience I get, the more humble I get as well. Its similar to the more you learn the more your realize how little you actually know. Any pseudo-intelligent person would agree. If not they are either intelligent but arrogant, or just not intelligent. But that is just my opinion.

Some have an education in life (id like to call that as being street smart) and some have the traditional academic one. While attaining my degree I felt as if I was becoming dumb, almost indoctrinated by the text books. It is going to take some time for me to fully recover from that.

Just my 2 cents

Regards,
bluehorn

I'm with you here, every new topic or book I dive into ends up blowing my mind on how ignorant I really am.

I had similar feelings in academia as well, although I feel it was because my heart really was not into it, either that or I couldn't stomach the bullshit that was taught.  Looking back now I realize how much information is withheld in institutions, compared to what is actually allowed to be taught.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: SealTeam6 on July 11, 2013, 05:06 am
I have run into many people throughout my life that find it normal to judge themselves above other people because of a college education, however I have found it to be the opposite.  Some of the most intelligent people I have ever met are individuals that most of society look down on, the hustlers out there, the homeless, etc.  In my opinion believing yourself to be superior because of an education given to you from an institution and looking down on others blocks your mind off from attaining more knowledge.  Basically I think underestimating any other persons intelligence proves that one is not so smart after all.  What do you think?

Another great topic, ST6! I couldn't agree more on this. In my field, which it pains me to say I can't reveal, there's a lot of this going on. That is, college educated snobs looking down on those who are just as capable as they are, but just lacking the diploma. In my opinion, the dipolma is just a piece of paper. You can't teach intelligence no matter how much money the student is willing to spend. (And its usually those with the expensive degrees that are the snobbiest about it.)

Getting a college degree can be a valuable asset for the right person (in terms of advancing knowledge), however, we have to remeber that some of the most briliant minds in the history of human civilization do not have college degrees!

Truth!

I'm glad you bring up the cost of education as well.  It has become one of the most ruthless businesses out there, and is another way to oppress the poor and underprivileged.  The odds are stacked against one who cannot afford the cost of education or is unwilling to burden themselves with the debt involved in student loans.  It also saddens me that education is not sought for its own intrinsic value but is only a means to advance in society, gain a big paycheck and outshine ones brothers and sisters.  It really is a sad thing.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: bluehorn on July 11, 2013, 05:16 am
Information withheld or even ignored in some cases. In extreme cases staying ahead of the text books or the professors lectures by keeping updated in the field, studying from research articles for exams is frowned upon, and could even get u failed. Then it is better to spend half the time learning a forth as much and get an A.

Personally I find it relaxing to be ignorant sometimes, or reduce things to just black or white.  :)

I hope you are comfortable in the situation you're in today and that you had use of your years of studying, I know that it took some years for me to really feel I learned something useful. But I guess thats what most students go through

regards,
bluehorn
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: SealTeam6 on July 11, 2013, 05:31 am
Information withheld or even ignored in some cases. In extreme cases staying ahead of the text books or the professors lectures by keeping updated in the field, studying from research articles for exams is frowned upon, and could even get u failed. Then it is better to spend half the time learning a forth as much and get an A.

Personally I find it relaxing to be ignorant sometimes, or reduce things to just black or white.  :)

I hope you are comfortable in the situation you're in today and that you had use of your years of studying, I know that it took some years for me to really feel I learned something useful. But I guess thats what most students go through

regards,
bluehorn

Ignorance truly is bliss, Intelligence definitely can be a gift and a curse.

I am comfortable in the situation I am in, thank you.  What I learned from studying in college life is that I really have a love for learning.  I always joked in school that all I really wanted to be was a career student, but it's hard to get paid to go to class.  I think of learning as a drug, and I am fully in its grips and loving it.  I fill my life now with constant study and it's very fulfilling for the most part.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: Choniven on July 11, 2013, 06:59 am
As stated earlier, I believe that both have their place.

Life experience is great, always helps to have some formal education to top it off
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: adamiz on July 11, 2013, 06:51 pm
Interesting subject.

Will try to put my opinion into this thread as well.

To begin with allow me to say a few words about this so called formal education.
The education system that we have is nothing more than a factory which produces future labor force. I can't say that it doesn't help us in any kind of level. It is important to learn how to read, write and have our young brains trained. Plus I really like the fact that kids get a chance to feel being in a social group other than their families. Yes education is important in that point of view.

But as students grow up, the educational system tends to mislead them and guide them towards a system of getting a career, routine and being "normal" inside this world. One fact that really mess up with people minds is the stress and massive reading that students have to get through. Kids forget how it is to be child, students enclose themselves inside to keep up with their studies and in the end when they get their diplomas their haven't experienced so much this thing call life.
Here is a very interesting animation video about the educational system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

As what we get to be tought through school is another big subject. In order to educate humans, the educational system ought to bring subjects as human rights, nature substaintance and more human/earth and art related lessons.

In bottom line the educational system doesn't want students to be open minded but rather they want to guide our minds.

Life experiences in the other hand is something that noone can avoid and every time we learn new things. We maybe not learn stuff that are necessary for getting a better job but instead instead we get to realize more of our selves and how people and society works. And those are really necessary tools for our lives.

Now, as people mentioned before, sadly there are people who judge others by the level of their education, or believe that they are smarter than others who don't possess a degree. I don't know where you guys are from, but this kind of situation sounds like you live in a country that you have to pay for your higher education. I lived and studied in Greece where education is free (supposed to be at least). I didn't see that situation a lot, although there were people who thought themselves superior to other who don't study.

Being humble is the best lesson that you can have. And unfortunately you don't get to learn this in school. People with degrees tend to be more competitive and humbleness isn't such a big fact amongst those people.

 I been traveling a lot by hitchhiking around Europe, and I kind of made my own statistics.
Most guys that picked me up (yes 99% are men) are not so high in the educational perspective, and almost all them were gentle and tried to offer me all that they had. Money, food, accommodation etc.
Very talkative and very interesting conversations. When I got picked up by men who had degrees, almost all the time we ended up talking about politics, economy and boring discussions. Anyway that was a small parenthesis.

In anyway, I don't say that education is totally scrap. The system that it around is shit and therefore the education tends to follow it.
As for higher education I would say it can be very interesting when studying something you really want to learn about and it can be really boring if you choose your studies in order to get your well paid job.

To close with, I would like to tell you (especially to those who are involved with teaching, or want their kids to have a different education) about the special schools who are working under the Summerhill model. Very very interesting, I read a book about it but I can't find the English title.
For further info about this check:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School
http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/

All the best my friends

Adamiz
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: SealTeam6 on July 11, 2013, 07:07 pm
+1 adamiz, very thoughtful reply.

I like the fact that you brought up traveling, I think that is a great way to learn about the world and stimulate ones mind body and soul. 
Simply seeing different scenery has a remarkable effect on the brain.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: adamiz on July 11, 2013, 09:55 pm
I promise one day I will write about traveling experiences when I have time and am in this mood.
Substances and psychedelics can be great to open your mind and soul, but never forget that so does traveling.

Will be back on that one day

Cheers,

Adamiz
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: mrmdma on July 11, 2013, 10:35 pm
A wise man in my eyes is well educated and has the years of experience behind him. Humans learn from experience and by copying from others(reading is one way to transfer one's wisdom to another person through a book). However I think that it is good to practice a heart transplant beforehand from a textbook and observing professors at work before you try to handle it by yourself. A college degree might also help even though the degree is useless as a piece of paper, but the education within it is kinda valuable, yes.


Of course there are also university graduates who made it with minimal effort and are stupid as fuck.

You should always stay open minded to new ways of thinking in my opinion. Listening others might teach you something, and what's so cool about it, you decide how you digest the information. You can take it and make it part of yourself of discard it as something that you don't deem valuable. However, stay open minded. The worst that could happen is that you could learn something new.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: GlenRunciter on July 12, 2013, 04:34 am
Good stuff...I mostly concur with the excellent thoughts expressed above....

In America, education is a mess.  The sad thing is the quality of your education is dependent on your socioeconomic status...if you're unlucky enough to be born poor in the inner city, raised by a single parent...the educational system is going to be broken down and barely functioning.    Contrast this to the suburban high schools with their vast football fields, swimming pools, and tax supported fancy infrastructure...these areas attract the best teachers...the kids who happen to be lucky enough to be born to middle-class parents or higher will likely get a superior education.  This is drastically unfair.       

Also in America, there is no coherent vocational track that students can take who aren't obviously University material.  Germany seems to have the right approach, where after the 8th grade, roughly, students are streamlined into apprentice-vocational tracks in order to learn a specific trade...and the ones wishing to attend university are sent thru a more rigorous high school curriculum that prepares them for that.   In America, it's just assumed ALL kids will be going to college, and everybody is thrown into the same lumpen mess.  What happens is it dumbs down the curriculum, limits vocational options, and the system is worse off for everyone.  More and more I hear complaints that college freshman can barely write a complete sentence or think critically about a piece of literature.   The first two years of a Bachelor's Degree in America now is teaching students all the fundamentals that should have been mastered in high school. 

A contributor above made an excellent point how schools these days seem like factories, brain-washing young adults into being conformist, materialistic, consumer driven profit maximizers that the industrialists and corporations so readily need to keep buying the shit they peddle.    We see this in the University system, where the Humanities and Liberal Arts are being completely ignored and underfunded in favor of Business Administration, or Chemical Engineering, etc., fields where students are told "all the big bucks" are to be had upon graduation.  When university students start out with the thought of majoring in a degree that will earn them the most money when they graduate, the whole idea of a university as a place for open minded dialogue, critical thinking, and rigorous debate about the important ideas about life vanishes...and so we are just left with a society we see today, based on reckless consumerism, greed, and status envy. Education at all levels suffers tremendously when profit seeking and consumerism are drummed into our heads as what matters the most in life.     OKAY, sorry, tirade over   ::)......cheers, great thread.......thanks.   8)
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: joywind on July 12, 2013, 05:16 am
Basically I think underestimating any other persons intelligence proves that one is not so intelligent after all.  What do you think?
I think intelligence is the ability to distinguish truth from falsehood.

You don't have to have any education to have this capacity.

People of high education are more likely to construct thought-systems that serve only as a barrier separating them from reality and thus undermining their ability to distinguish truth from falsehood.

Education has more to do with cleverness than intelligence.


Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: SelfSovereignty on July 12, 2013, 06:03 am
People generalize the concept of "intelligence," far too much.  What are you talking about: do you mean the innate talent someone has to put a set of blocks together so that they're seamless and in a recognizable form (solve a puzzle quickly)?

Do you mean the skill with which someone is able to recognize the underlying similarities shared by a series of objects, and thus predict the next in a sequence (pattern recognition)?

Do you mean whether someone can remember the voltage on a membrane of a neuron that triggers an action potential and sends a charge shooting across the synapse (which I don't, personally, but it's still an example of memory)?

So how about the people who can calculate endless digits of pi infinitely like some kind of computer, but can't tie their own shoes in the morning?  Or who are truly unbeatable in a very restricted game environment like chess or go -- but then can't tell you how much change to give somebody if they buy a coffee for 2.93 and pay 5.00 dollars?


What I'm getting at is that intelligence is so much more than people generally think of it as being.  It's so many dozens or hundreds -- or even thousands or more -- skills and processes that come together to create a human mind.  What we know and learn and absorb and see and experience is what determines what our minds are truly capable of.  And that is not set in stone at birth.  I.Q. is almost meaningless and varies through life.  Yes, it will help you solve a puzzle very quickly.  Yes, it will help you recognize patterns in repeating sequences.  Yes, it will help you learn things faster than you otherwise might.  But a lack of it does not mean you can't learn everything anybody else can.  It just means it will take longer.

... and yes, there are people whose intelligence is so below average that they will not live long enough to learn certain things no matter how hard they try.  It's sad, but it's true.  So be it, it's not their fault and they shouldn't be blamed for it.

My point, here, is that education is what matters.  Knowledge is the truest form of power.  Look around at your neighborhood.  There used to be fucking animals roaming all over the place.  Then we came along, and slowly, we conquered them.  Then we conquered some more.  And we kept coming along and kicking the shit out of every single goddamn life form we encountered practically without contest, until we discovered that we ruled the entire fucking planet with an iron fist.

And now we're destroying it.  Such is life.  But my point is that education is not pointless.  It is not "one or the other," my friends.  Both is best.  You lose *nothing* by gaining an education, but you gain a tremendous amount.  Learn.  Learn all you can everywhere you can in every possible way you can, and you will never find a situation that you cannot master.

Unless the guy you're up against learned more than you did.  Or a rock falls on your head or something.  Then you're just straight up fucked :P
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: adamiz on July 12, 2013, 10:33 am
One other thing I like to mention is the impact of the economic crisis to the education system.

There are some negatives perspectives of course in the quality and other matters but a good thing that crisis does is that all this saturated fields such as Business administrator, Engineering and so on, are loosing their big popularity. Except that the market is so congested with people with huge diplomas and unemployed youth, people have start actually choosing their studies according to their real passion.

Plus, this myth that you cannot find a job without a degree is more and more getting "mythbusted".
Many people (at least where I used to live) have started to get back to the nature and cultivation, jobs that require practical manual human force such as electrician, builders, plumbers etc. And those are also very well paid if you doing it right. And cultivation can be also really fun and you learning.

That was an parenthesis I want to add.

Cheers,

Adamiz
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: SealTeam6 on July 14, 2013, 02:48 am
People generalize the concept of "intelligence," far too much.  What are you talking about: do you mean the innate talent someone has to put a set of blocks together so that they're seamless and in a recognizable form (solve a puzzle quickly)?

Do you mean the skill with which someone is able to recognize the underlying similarities shared by a series of objects, and thus predict the next in a sequence (pattern recognition)?

Do you mean whether someone can remember the voltage on a membrane of a neuron that triggers an action potential and sends a charge shooting across the synapse (which I don't, personally, but it's still an example of memory)?

So how about the people who can calculate endless digits of pi infinitely like some kind of computer, but can't tie their own shoes in the morning?  Or who are truly unbeatable in a very restricted game environment like chess or go -- but then can't tell you how much change to give somebody if they buy a coffee for 2.93 and pay 5.00 dollars?


What I'm getting at is that intelligence is so much more than people generally think of it as being.  It's so many dozens or hundreds -- or even thousands or more -- skills and processes that come together to create a human mind.  What we know and learn and absorb and see and experience is what determines what our minds are truly capable of.  And that is not set in stone at birth.  I.Q. is almost meaningless and varies through life.  Yes, it will help you solve a puzzle very quickly.  Yes, it will help you recognize patterns in repeating sequences.  Yes, it will help you learn things faster than you otherwise might.  But a lack of it does not mean you can't learn everything anybody else can.  It just means it will take longer.

... and yes, there are people whose intelligence is so below average that they will not live long enough to learn certain things no matter how hard they try.  It's sad, but it's true.  So be it, it's not their fault and they shouldn't be blamed for it.

My point, here, is that education is what matters.  Knowledge is the truest form of power.  Look around at your neighborhood.  There used to be fucking animals roaming all over the place.  Then we came along, and slowly, we conquered them.  Then we conquered some more.  And we kept coming along and kicking the shit out of every single goddamn life form we encountered practically without contest, until we discovered that we ruled the entire fucking planet with an iron fist.

And now we're destroying it.  Such is life.  But my point is that education is not pointless.  It is not "one or the other," my friends.  Both is best.  You lose *nothing* by gaining an education, but you gain a tremendous amount.  Learn.  Learn all you can everywhere you can in every possible way you can, and you will never find a situation that you cannot master.

Unless the guy you're up against learned more than you did.  Or a rock falls on your head or something.  Then you're just straight up fucked :P

Intelligence is the one thing I do like to generalize because I think that everyone has intelligence, everyone has something or the other that they are naturally inclined towards, the areas you pointed out are great examples of this.  Categories of course are necessary but when we start to categorize these areas too much I feel as tho it has a negative effect on people.  A person may feel themselves inadequate because of not yet being able to find their intellectual niche.  Similar to how not having a college degree can aide in how an individual values their own self worth.  I see many people underestimating themselves and their value because of not having achieved this goal.  Society does not help much with this.

I'm not at all knocking formal education, just trying to find balance.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: GlenRunciter on July 14, 2013, 04:11 am
I guess this can sound kind of cheesy...but I always agreed with the different kinds of "intelligence" that are found in the population....like "emotional" intelligence, mechanical intelligence, social intelligence or basic 'street smarts' and being able to read people and size them up, and then formal intellectual intelligence which just allows a person to learn and retain a lot of information like a sponge.   All these are different ways of being 'smart' that don't necessarily have anything to do with attaining a college degree.   Some of the smartest, most intellectually intelligent mathematicians are socially retarded or can barely function in a social setting.  People with mechanical or technical intelligence can figure out the intricate design of a automobile engine or a complex air conditioning system by just glancing at it...something many people with "book smarts" are totally inept at.   I think that' mixture of talents in our population is something we need to embrace more; we all need each others expertise at different times  and are interdependent on each other more than we like to think.     In a sense college eduction has little to do with these inherent differences.   ;)
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: c13hqPX7d on July 26, 2013, 08:51 pm
[...]
Germany seems to have the right approach, where after the 8th grade, roughly, students are streamlined into apprentice-vocational tracks in order to learn a specific trade...and the ones wishing to attend university are sent thru a more rigorous high school curriculum that prepares them for that.
[...]

I just have to comment on this, even though it was posted a few days ago. Let me tell you, the way Germany handles it is NOT a good approach. I will just give you a brief overview of the German school system:

1st: Elementary school (4 years)
The first two years, you don't get grades. In year 3 and 4 you will be judged, heavily. Your grades in year 4 decide whether you will atend Gymnasium, Realschule or Hauptschule.

2nd: "Gymnasium" OR "Realschule" OR "Hauptschule"
Gymnasium (8 years): school for pupils with the best grades. There are Gymnasiums that focus on arts, sports, economics, science, maths and language so you can choose what suits you best.
This is the only school that, if finished properly, qualifies you to go to university (It's called "Abitur" test. In Austria it is still called "Matura" or "Reifeprüfung" which literally means "maturity test").

Realschule (6 years): .....average grades
After you finish Realschule, you get a degree called "Mittlere Reife" ("medium maturity", medium referring to this type of school is kinda sandwiched between the other two. You can't go to uni after that, except through the "second eduction system" (which would be too much to explain) or additional years in Gymnasium (2 years if I'm not mistaken).
In year 7 you can select between three "branches" that will define your last years in school AND what you can do afterwards. You can specialize in languages, economics, maths or arts.

Hauptschule (5-6 years): ......bad grades
Ends with a Hauptschuldegree. And again, it's still possible to go to uni eventually, even though this is really tricky and a lot of hard work.
If your grades are acceptable you can add an extra year to get a so-called "qualified Hauptshuldegree".

3rd: University
This system is similar in other countries so I don't think I have to explain that.
An alternative to university, although it is not as "reputable", is a so-called "school for applied sciences".



You might think this is a fair system. Looks good and fair, doesnt it? BUT, and here comes the big BUT:
The problems start right in elementary school. Just think about it: within 4 years, the destiny of a pupil is set. You go to one of the three next school types.
You have to achieve a certain score in your 4th year (9-11 year olds!!!!!) that defines how your life will continue. Of course you can switch between school types if your grades are good enough. This is simply a possibility, in reality it only plays a minor role as most pupils and parents don't give a fuck and accept the status quo.
It is a known FACT that teachers do a lot of the separation. At the end of year 4 they can decide which next school you are qualified for. If they don't like you, have the wrong impression of you, simply think you're not clever enough or don't like your parents, you're screwed. They have all the power.

Hauptschule is the biggest problem as it is highly stigmatized. You CAN NOT get a proper job with a Hauptschuldegree, PERIOD. No employer wants you, unless contruction work is your dream occupation. This is a big problem in Germany. We have a lot of jobs but nobody's qualified for them.
The reputation of Hauptschule is the following: difficult and dumb kids, most probably violent immigrants that can't be controlled go there. Kids with "special needs". Pupils who attend Hauptschule know this, which is why they don't give a fuck about their academic career in the first place. They know what most people think about them.
I especially mentioned immigrants because they make up about 80-85% of Hauptschule pupils. This is a problem because Germany is still extremely xenophobic. It's not apparent, active xenophobia, it's slimy and subtle, it's in the air. To explain that, I would have to dig in very deep into German culture which I don't have the time for at this moment unfortunately.

Long story short, I notice my thoughts drift off a little... The German education system works with money and luck. Berlin does nothing to include pupils who are already stigmatized (which is bit unfair towards Berlin I admit, as each state in Germany has their own education laws...). School time gets shorter and shorter while pupils have to learn more and more. Employers do not see the problem, instead they hire people from abroad or even leave Germany. Teachers can't do anything against it because many many teachers work for the state (you don't have to, but you get more money, better healthcare and so on...) which forces them to remain silent and teach the kids what the government says. Teachers that don't work for the government have a little bit more freedom. Parents do not care as long as their kids attend Gymnasium. Why would they, they profit from the system.

Sorry for this quite off-topic rant but I just wanted it to get out there.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: GlenRunciter on July 27, 2013, 01:39 am
Holy Crap....I got schooled !!!!   Thanks, my man, for the education (on German education.)   It was very illuminating.   I appreciate the time you took to explain it all in such detail.  After hearing it from you, it almost sounds like the German system could be just as stigmatizing and limiting as the American system, if not more so.   At least here, you don't get automatically stamped on the forehead with a "dumb person degree" and if you do, you can pretty easily remedy that situation through hard work and some government help (well that is also being cut.)    Plus look at Edward Snowden, for example...with just a Graduate Equivalency Degree (didn't finish high school, but passed a test to say he mastered high school curriculum)  he was able to land a 6 figure salary just thru his self-taught computer skills.  Those kind of stories are prolific here.   This is such a complicated subject area with lots of avenues for branching off into tangents, that I will stop here.....but thanks again man for your explanation of things from your insider viewpoint.    8)
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: c13hqPX7d on July 27, 2013, 09:14 am
No prob man  8)
Yes the German education system is very stigmatizing. There are attempts at the moment to lessen this fact, they call it "Gesamtschule" where they basically just mix pupils from all three school forms. This is also a JOKE and I realized that I could write a whole book about it so I will stop here before I start ranting again :D

The fact that Edward Snowden does not have a fucking proper degree makes me so happy, it's just a "in-your-face" moment for everyone who values people based on their education :)
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: 420blindman on July 27, 2013, 08:18 pm
Check out anything on youtube with the name "John Taylor Gatto"

He was a teacher in NYC for 20+ years, winning Teacher of the Year a few times. After retiring, he spoke out about how the American education system is purposely dumbing down it's children.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: DenoyerGeppert on July 28, 2013, 06:50 pm
I believe that life experience and relationships are the most effective way of learning.

My current situation is this:

In the last 6 months I finished studying a creative course in a western country. By the end of this course I was not only fed up with the structure of 'creative learning' but aalso I became despondent towards creativity in general, as I believe that modern art is a mess of expression and actually shows us exactly how far the human has progressed from being a sensitive expressive individual. (this is a long topic in itself)

And so I approached a close friend who travels alot and has much experience in a unique creative field and expressed my problems with the west and with creativity. As a result I am now on the other side of the world and I believe in my travels of 3 months I have truly learnt more that 3 years of formal study. I have experienced the richness of unique cultures and by sharing and relating to this friend of mine I have learnt from these experiences. I have understood that, formal education is by far a waste of time unless all you want is a society. If you want this, than formal education gives it to you in the former of a piece of paper. But if you want insights, experiences, impressions, then life experience is your path.

Before this travel it was impossible to express something creatively as I have experienced nothing. And how can a teacher at a university teach you to express something if you have no impressions to express? It is impossible. Only life can teach you to express and relate and understand. And especially for creativity, this is priceless.

I truly believe that deep understanding can only come from experience and relating. Formal education teaches you to remebered an acceptable method of facts so you can regurgitate them when necessary.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: sharonneedles on July 30, 2013, 12:42 pm
You may know how to react to a particular situation from experience but education gives you the broader knowledge to understand why you react like this and how to change your senses to general life.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: GlenRunciter on July 30, 2013, 06:37 pm
I agree with ^ in that education provides your life with CONTEXT.       
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: Wepromisetwenty on July 30, 2013, 07:38 pm
Interesting debate, and one that i've pondered over for most my adult life. Nice post.

I think that both play equal roles in today's society, and those that have the best of both are likely to have the most success, but the fundamental problem at the moment is the inability (or refusal) of most educational establishments to promote, or even admit that fact that life experience and "soft skills" are just as important as grades and qualifications in getting start in life, and even MORE important in maintaining success and stability beyond that.

Schools are too busy either meeting government targets (in state schooling), or fighting to rise above other schools in terms of exclusivity and results (in the private schooling system). And this means ignoring the personality, growth, and 'life experience' of the indivudal and concentrating on menial things such as test scores, just because they're more easily measurable.

Kids are leaving schools today thinking if they get 3 A's and a First Class degree that they're set for life. Its a sorry state of affairs today that young people feel obliged to pay tens of thousands of £/$s for this, when many of those 'clever' enough to score well are leaving university unable to get a job because nobody has told the poor sod's that they need to be able to succeed socially to aquire whatever job they're working towards. This also seems to be fuelled by employers, who will foolishly only look at 'graduates' for certain jobs.

If it weren't for the condition of western society, then I'd have to say that life skills are the more important, and I believe they should be, but with the way things are at the moment - sadly everybody needs a piece of paper saying they're clever enough.

I bought into it and went to university and got a degree.... and the piece of paper has helped me undoubtedly. But honestly.. I don't feel it should have. I'm no different with it than without it, and I apply virtually nothing I studied at school in my life or job today, nor have I ever....
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: 420blindman on July 30, 2013, 07:56 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws4a-GMQ1MI
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: GlenRunciter on July 30, 2013, 09:03 pm
Unfortunately...in America especially, it's neither formal education or life experience that benefits you the most.  More and more it is THE LUCK OF THE DRAW.  Who you were born to and what kinds of connections your parents have.   The old adage rings truer by the day...it's not WHAT you know, it's WHO you know.   The "American Dream" cliche is proving to be a pipe dream.  You can have all the brains in the world and be the hardest worker on the planet but still the Dumb Guy who happens to be the son of a Rich Guy will get all the breaks, all the advantages, and sometimes even become President of the United States.     :P
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: kmfkewm on August 01, 2013, 04:19 am
Your life experience is not likely to teach you quantum physics.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: CheapestCocaine on August 01, 2013, 10:46 am
I think the difference between formal education and life experience is like the difference between artificial selection and natural selection.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: Wepromisetwenty on August 01, 2013, 01:16 pm
Your life experience is not likely to teach you quantum physics.

Neither is formal education..

I bet most of our notable quantum physicists gathered the majority of what they know through self teaching, reading, and... their fellow quantum physicists  :P
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: SealTeam6 on August 01, 2013, 04:25 pm
You may know how to react to a particular situation from experience but education gives you the broader knowledge to understand why you react like this and how to change your senses to general life.

Well put.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: mothraa on September 06, 2013, 11:45 am
I definitely think that a good mix of both, or at least, if not "formal education," a fair amount of reading and thinking on one's own, is necessary.  Ask any 25-year old about 20-year old them, and you'll see that clearly life experience makes a big difference in understanding and maturity.  But being able and interested in seeking out knowledge is important, because even many people with life experience are easily led and don't think very well.  I see it in my own family members, posting every single facebook hoax they come across and being afraid of things they don't want to try to look into and understand. 

I find it interesting that so many of you with academic degrees found your education to be lacking (indoctrination, being taught lies or having information withheld, etc).  Perhaps that is the benefit of having a degree in anthropology- they wanted to blow the lid right off the system and show you how things really are. 

I think it also helped that I spent time in the "real world" for several years first and then started my degree at a community college with a wide variety of people (I hate when people assume they're just for stupid people- no, they're for saving money, so cut out the social judgements please- ill hold my education up to anyone else's any day).

People keep thinking I should get a job in my degree, or go back for my masters (and get steeped in debt while playing for one of the few academic slots for my field?  No thanks).  Honestly, I just want to learn how to grow plants better, homestead or something, and be free.  I go back and forth between that and RV living, just because of how dangerous society is lately, I want a way out.  I'd love to go live in Peru or Brazil and learn indigenous knowledge for a couple of years.  If I can get brave enough, my five year plan is to end up in South America somewhere learning whatever I can.

I don't really agree with the ideas of how German schools are run, because what 8th grader really knows what they want to do by then?  In England they have a similar thing, and students can feel pressured into a path that as they age and learn more about themselves and the world, they no longer want to be in.  And it can, apparently, be hard to leave that track. 

I like the Swedish system, personally.  Their high school is taught all the basics- you know, like the US.  Only instead of repeating the basics more in-depth once they hit college, they're taught more in-depth in the first place,  so that those not going to college have a strong background, and those going can focus on taking classes only geared toward their major.  They also get a stipend to live on so that they can focus on their studies instead of worrying about struggling for income.  I had a friend in Sweden who said that each semester they focus on a couple of classes, really in-depth, and it helps them to learn a lot better.  He said he couldn't see how anyone succeeds in our system, and after hearing about theirs, I can understand why. 

Anyone interested in learning more about the indoctrination and poor quality of school systems in America should check out the documentary "Waiting for Superman."  I watched it last semester in my "Cultural Resistance" class. (again, the benefit of being an anthropology student in this society ;)  )

If I ever find myself raising a child in this world, they will be going to Montessori schools or being home-taught.

Now that my degree is finished I want to learn two things- practical trades such as mechanics, electrical, carpentry (wanna build a house on the cheap), as well as spiritual/psychedelic knowledge.  I want to spend more time reading brilliant minds and learning more about this planet. 

I find it especially interesting to say that, now, because when I was younger, I grew up poor and had a very negative taste in my mouth toward anything I considered blue-collar.  Now that I have a formal education behind me, I've come full circle and wish I'd picked up some skills along the way.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: Reason on September 07, 2013, 02:56 am
Intelligence + Experience + Knowledge are prerequisites for Wisdom.  Education can grant some of the later two, but these can also be acquired through other avenues.

However, formal educational degrees say many things about a person (as does their clothes, or the company they keep).  It says for example, that you are a person that can persevere (education is most certainly an endurance sport).  It says you can work in complex social and organizational structures successfully.  It says that you can organize yourself toward a long term goal.  It says in short quite a bit about you.

One cannot however expect education to indicate a person is kind, has life experience, proficiency in any particular vocation or area of expertise, is generally intelligent, is tall, short, thin, or fat.  However...spending a little time with a person most certainly will.

:-)

R.

Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: Jeks on September 07, 2013, 07:14 am
I have run into many people throughout my life that find it normal to judge themselves above other people because of a college education, however I have found it to be the opposite.  Some of the most intelligent people I have ever met are individuals that most of society look down on, the hustlers out there, the homeless, etc.  In my opinion believing yourself to be superior because of an education given to you from an institution and looking down on others blocks your mind off from attaining more knowledge.  Basically I think underestimating any other persons intelligence proves that one is not so intelligent after all.  What do you think?

Gaining knowledge is what matters. Not how you gain it. Looking down on others is foolish.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: uninfested on September 07, 2013, 09:11 am
Formal education and life experience are both tools. They can be used many ways, or misused, or not even used at all.

I guess it is up to the individual to know which tools they use best.
Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: GlenRunciter on September 08, 2013, 07:11 am
Just flipping thru my favorite philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche....and came across this somewhat appropriate comment on the state of German education in his time (he wrote this in the late 1880's) .... I think this critique is still relevant now:

From "The Twilight of the Idols"

"And there reigns everywhere an indecent haste, as if something has been neglected if the young man of twenty-three is not yet 'finished and ready,' does not yet know the answer to the 'chief question:'  -which- calling ?   -  A higher kind of human being, excuse me for saying, doesn't think much of 'callings', the reason being he knows himself called.... He takes his time, he has plenty of time, he gives no thought whatsoever to being 'finished and ready' - at the age of thirty one is, as regards high culture, a beginner, a child."

Being on the wrong side of 30 myself...I see a lot of wisdom in this remark.  When I graduated from college at age 22, what the hell did I know?  Nothing.   Even at 30, we're still learning the ropes of life....and at 40, I sincerely hope to have learned a valuable thing or two...we shall see.  But this crazy emphasis on pushing kids into University, having them 'pick a career', and be ready to roll by age 22 is pretty ludicrous...IMO.     ::) 8)

Title: Re: Formal education vs. Life experience
Post by: neplusultra on September 08, 2013, 07:30 am
The saddest case is where American public education is heading. I'll quote something Richard Mitchell said about public education in American. He was an English professor in the 70's and he became popular through his newsletter The Underground Grammarian, anyway he said,

"American public education is a remarkable enterprise; it succeeds best where it fails. Imagine an industry that consistently fails to do what it sets out to do, a factory where this year's product is invariably sleazier than last year's but, nevertheless, better than next year's. Imagine a corporation whose executives are always spending vast sums of money on studies designed to discover just what it is they are supposed to do and then vaster sums for further studies on just how to do it. Imagine a plant devoted to the manufacture of factory seconds to be sold at a loss. Imagine a producer of vacuum cleaners that rarely work hiring whole platoons of engineers who will, in time, report that it is, in fact, true that the vacuum cleaners rarely work, and who will, for a larger fee, be glad to find out why, if that's possible. If you discover some such outfit, don't invest in it. Unfortunately, we are all required to invest in public education."