Silk Road forums
Discussion => Newbie discussion => Topic started by: abitpeckish on May 14, 2013, 09:14 pm
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Continuing from OT discussion in another thread
yes if your religious beliefs inhibit the progress of anything scientific then fair enough.
Anything that has consequences in our shared reality is fundamentally scientific. The specific kind of unreason we call religion has been with us for so long that we have generally been convinced that religious thinking is both harmless and necessary. This is a claim that has absolutely no logical standing in the modern world, and we deny this at our own peril.
But if people are religious and wish to keep their beliefs then what harm does it do us? None at all.
Off the top of my head: suicide bombings, genital mutilation, murderous xenophobia, genocide, slavery, The root causes of human acceptance of these atrocities is not religion, specifically, but unreason. Religious thinking, however, is fundamentally unreasonable and therefore is vulnerable to the recurrence of such horrors.
That is extremism, even though it may be do to with religion, It is extremism and is not practiced by the the religious temples, churches synagogues etc, but violent factions. Religion itself is not about killing others and the things you have mentioned, As i said earlier as well, The church has been responsible for Thousand of murders, slavery and much more, Though this was in the past, And this was not the same of all religions. This was also in the past where slavery was prominent anyway, Not that is any excuse for a religion which is meant to help people though.
It's not just extremism, it's dogmatism. Dogmatism is unreason in its purest and most dangerous form. What is it that you're defending here?
As long as they are learning with an open mind and not just with religious views. So yes as long as the beliefs do not effect the way you act in a negative way fine. But what about if religion makes somebody act better? Its a double edged sword.
To paraphrase Sam Harris: if religion ever gets anything right regarding questions of this sort, it is only by accident. Believing right things for the wrong reasons is quite plainly dangerous.
Are you trying to say that if you start dictating that people cannot believe in something it is not fascism?
No. Nor am I saying that people are not allowed to believe in absurdities. I am simply saying that we must stop allowing these absurdities to enter into the intellectual territory of questions that quite obviously involve the experiences of conscious beings in this world.
Your [sic] speculating on everything so broadly, I never said that " one fascist or even totalitarian society that became so because its people became less dogmatic and more committed to reason." but i tell you that if you control people and tell them what they can and cant believe in it becomes fascism fact. Also people would start revolting against whoever was doing so and it would slow progress down not speed it up in any way.
Agreed, which is why I would never promote such a thing. We're going to have to become more committed to reason one by one.
How would it be fairly straightforward? id love to hear it, if you are right , i take my hat off to you, And let's implement it asap.
In practice, we could definitely fix this problem. If this species were to wake up to its circumstances and begin to be reasonable, we could make it so situations like this simply will not exist. There may always be psychopaths and sociopaths among us, but we can likely mitigate the destructive behaviors if we can identify them and enrich them during cognitive development. The ones that still act destructively we would then simply institutionalize.
The crux of the problem here lies in the fact that homo sapiens is still constantly tricked by its own cleverness, and we are resultingly a highly intelligent but stupidly acting species. All human behavior is causal, and belief is one of the strongest motivators of human behavior. As long as we continue to believe ridiculous things, we will never even be able to begin solving problems like pedophilia.
your definition of conscious beings is wrong, Everybody is conscious whether they believe in absurdities or not. But if you mean that religious theories must not be involved in scientific matters then i agree as they are only delaying things for us a human race.
Please tell me how my definition of conscious beings is wrong. You seem to be under the impression that I believe religious people aren't conscious. This is untrue.
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Well is Islam is based upon reason.
Wait...you're serious? Alright well...let's see how this goes...
How do you prove that God exist? Well if you reason every thing created must have a creator. Right?
Wrong. All of existence is causally interrelated. This is not the same as saying things are "created" or have "creators".
So this world is here. So it must come from some where right. This world is too complex to have come in existence
by pure change.
We know where it comes from, thanks to the past ~400 years of application of the philosophy of science. It is not "too complex" for any such thing, and you must back up this claim before you can move further from this starting position.
There are more rational based arguments in Islam. This is only one of them
Ones I a had a debate with a Christian about God having a son. I asked how can God have a son because is did and still does not make any sense to me. She replied you just have to believe that. That what I call blind faith.
Do you want to know more
If what you have said so far is indicative of what you consider to be "reason", then no I don't need to know any more. It is more than reasonable to simply dismiss your arguments as incoherent.
(edit: Sorry about misspelling your handle, jundullahi.)
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religion=cash scheme
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religion=cash scheme
The overwhelming majority of religion definitely falls into this category, but the devastating part is that the overwhelming majority of religious people do not fall into this category. As long as we allow unreason (e.g. religion) to assert itself within discussions regarding human well-being (poverty, health, ethics, economics, international relations, etc), we will fail to find solutions that make real progress toward the flourishing of conscious beings in the universe.
News flash to humanity: Even if we were to survive our current religiously-entangled predicaments—suicide terrorism, equality, climate change—, which is doubtful, the sun is going to kill us if we stay here. We're going to have to leave this fucking planet. (and we're probably going to want to bring at least the conscious organisms along for the ride) We have enough information to know this. For a fact. Contemplate; truly contemplate this fact for a moment. Do you think we'll ever be able to do this if we're constantly having to deal with people killing each other over disagreements about which iron age, pre-scientific, irrational, and culturally inherited accounts of existence (all of it) are the perfect, complete, unerring truth?
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religion=cash scheme
Some religion are a money scheme.
But Islam is not. Taxes are prohibited and so is taking interest. The is only a 2,5 poor tax. And that only is taking
from you present holding. So if you make a thousand spend a thousand you dont have to pay this 2,5 procent.
If you are below a certain level of income you dont have to pay any thing and the state supports you.
In Islam the state is there for the people. Not the people for the state.
The second Khalif Umar ibn Khatab used to walk at night trough the city see hear if there were children crying from hunger. He did not in enrich his self.
All Islamic knowledge is free. You can download all the books on Islam for free. You can order a copy of the Quran for free. Islamic knowledge has no copyright.
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I see some posts missing there... I suppose I could take that as intentional and just say it all over again, but I suppose I might take the benefit of the doubt here.
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Not all are money scams, but I do believe most if not all are POWER SCAMS. people can never really understand this for some reason always saying, "Well why the hell ever would they go and do that? No motive nonsense" When I can see a CLEAR and present shift of power being created. Human beings are much more powerful than we are led and learn to believe. If we could all just open up our eyes, or in other words, lift this "heavy fog" we would be able to do so much more for this single, tiny planet we call home. In the past couple years, it is making itself evident that we will not be able to escape this "brute-like" consciousness we have so deeply decented. But, I always stay positive, as we all should!
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If religion is bogus why is Islam the fasts growing religion in the world?
abitpeckish
Did you every read the Quran?
Did you know is science in the Quran. The big bang, how the mountains are like pegs. About the uniqueness of the finger print. Where iron comes from.
Look at the decadence of western society. At the high suicide rates. You dont find those in amongst most Muslims. Do your own research from the Islamic point of view. How muslims explain there religion.
Dont keep on Quoting some guy how clearly has some beaf with religion for what ever reason.
Religion is food for the soul. If you do not believe in a soul I pity you.
People will be killing people for what every reason.
If people believe in the fact that God created the everything and created the first two human. And we are all their descents. So then we are all brother and sister. Would you kill your brother? I surely would not.
The Quran challenges people to think and ponder the nature of creation. Go read it. You can find a free copy maybe at your local mosque.
And if you have not read the Quran (in its correct translation) then I dont thing you are speaking with real knowledge.
Miracles Of The Quran Documentary English Full Part 1/4 2011 HD go watch this if you dare.
And if you believe that design needs designer is not not rational prove for the existence of a designer.
Well then I dont see any point the continuation of this discussion.
Because I how many examples I would bring if you just simple refuse the think it might be possible that God exist well then. This is the end.
I still you wish you the best.
Go watch the miracles of the Quran.
Just some friendly advice.
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Muslim makes the most sense to me out of them all.
Good points posted!
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Thank you
If you want to know more watch this documentary
Miracles Of The Quran Documentary English Full Part 1/4 2011 HD
Is explains all scientific miracles in the Quran
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I will reaffirm my position from the other post if I must... but I'll take a shorter route for now.
We do not know everything. That is the most truthful thing that any situation, no matter your religion or lack thereof, must accept. Some of us may like to think we do, but we don't. We don't know what was before the big bang, we don't know precisely how life started on earth - or when it started for that matter. There are many, many questions that remain unanswered. We have theories, but as even Hawking admits - some questions just don't have answers until other criteria and/or steps are achieved.
One of the greatest gifts I have received over the past few years in opening my mind and taking journeys with others, is an understanding of something a bit more than the jaded idea I had coming out of highschool. Reconciling the beliefs in a God, any God, with the realities of science, were very difficult for me as a kid. And, to be honest, my opinion itself is still mostly science, but that doesn't account for everything.
In these various moments, I have heard many people of many faiths, discuss the very concept of life itself. It's not unusual, particularly given the other things we were doing besides talking. The thing that came across as enlightening though, is that in these discussions - ultimately all come to a similar conclusion, while the avenue may simply be different. Maybe you believe we came here by comets with bacteria on them in a lucky strike, or perhaps there were highly advanced pilgrims that seeded the planet. Maybe it was a god, maybe it was a traveler... or maybe it just happened. Whatever the case, this happened billions of years ago, and even the various astrobiologists that constantly examine even the strangest life on our planet that lives in conditions similar to the past cycles of earth.. admit that even when we think we know, the truth is almost impossible to prove.
This is an extreme example, but the message is there. In order to understand that which has no explanation, we naturally provide one that allows for a reconciliation of the phenomena. Religious dogma, almost exclusively, spawned from this very human construct... our desire to explain that which we do not understand. Yes, this makes a reasonable portion of the explanations obsolete, but it hardly makes religion useless. Where you may be able to understand the astronomical significance of a 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 chance 4.3 billion years ago that ultimately led to our genesis, that does not mean someone else can too. And, there is proof for neither story... so which does it make right?
We teach children through the use of symbolism and imagery that identifies with their younger, imaginative minds. Does this make the concepts of morality that is driven through some of these concepts, is also obsolete for children? I have yet to encounter scientific theory for why being a good person helps a scientific field. In some cases, these are concepts avoided in scientific communities, as to get the answer may require some immoral methods.
The extremes of religion are not caused by religion, they are caused by people, and those same people have equal affects on science. There are examples all throughout history, but there is an extremely recent one. There were Italian geologists and seismologists that went so far as to publish as fact that an earthquake was NOT going to happen, and that any evidence of the sort was a lie. The evidence, which was based upon observable patterns and lead up energy releases that were measurable even within the day before the event, ended up being true - even as those scientists continued to advocate that people were completely safe. They are now in jail, charged with crimes related to the deaths of those that believed the scientists rather than the rest of the world that were telling them to evacuate.
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I see some posts missing there... I suppose I could take that as intentional and just say it all over again, but I suppose I might take the benefit of the doubt here.
You came in later in the thread, after it was clear it should branch to its own thread. I expected you would reiterate what you wrote if you were interested in the conversation.
If religion is bogus why is Islam the fasts growing religion in the world?
This is not logic. It is a non sequitur. The rate at which religions are gaining in adherents does not necessarily speak to the coherence of its claims. Islam, like all other religions, makes numerous claims about the nature of reality that are obviously incorrect. This isn't even getting into the sadistic morality that Islam teaches. If you do not shudder at the thought what Islam applied according to its scripture would mean to society, you are either deluding yourself or not paying attention.
abitpeckish
Did you every read the Quran?
Did you know is science in the Quran. The big bang, how the mountains are like pegs. About the uniqueness of the finger print. Where iron comes from.
I have not yet read the Quran, no. It is definitely in the middle of the list of things I need to read. I don't need to have read the Koran, however, to dismiss the notion that it represents anything even remotely like or even compatible with a scientific understanding of existence. Example: the afterlife. This is fucking ridiculous, on its face.
Look at the decadence of western society. At the high suicide rates. You dont find those in amongst most Muslims. Do your own research from the Islamic point of view. How muslims explain there religion.
It doesn't matter how Muslims explain their religion, so long as what they believe is unreasonable. Which it is. The consequences of belief are human decisions and actions, and it should be clear that any belief system that can be construed to justify suicide terrorism is fundamentally and irreparably unreasonable.
Dont keep on Quoting some guy how clearly has some beaf with religion for what ever reason.
For whatever reason? Suicide terrorism, martyrdom, the Inquisition, slavery, genocide, Sharia law, genital mutilation, child rape, misogyny, denying equality to ethical people...these are the fruits of religion, because they are the fruits of unreason.
Religion is food for the soul. If you do not believe in a soul I pity you.
Why pity me? I am at peace with my place in the world, and the fact that this is my one chance at life keeps me motivated to make as good a life for myself and others as possible.
People will be killing people for what every reason.
That you would say this immediately after the above is depressing. This does not have to be true. Alas, it will be for at least as long as religion is around.
If people believe in the fact that God created the everything and created the first two human. And we are all their descents. So then we are all brother and sister. Would you kill your brother? I surely would not.
I don't believe that, yet still I wouldn't kill my brother. Because it's wrong. I don't need religion to tell me that, and neither do you.
The Quran challenges people to think and ponder the nature of creation. Go read it. You can find a free copy maybe at your local mosque.
And if you have not read the Quran (in its correct translation) then I dont thing you are speaking with real knowledge.
And what if I wanted to burn it on YouTube instead? Would you be okay with that? Would your Muslim friends? Would Muslim communities?
Miracles Of The Quran Documentary English Full Part 1/4 2011 HD go watch this if you dare.
If I find time to watch this, I'm sure it will be great comedy. There is no such thing as a miracle.
And if you believe that design needs designer is not not rational prove for the existence of a designer. Well then I dont see any point the continuation of this discussion.
Design definitely needs a designer, sure. That's just the way language works. Nothing about the universe indicates that it was designed.
Because I how many examples I would bring if you just simple refuse the think it might be possible that God exist well then. This is the end.
I still you wish you the best.
Go watch the miracles of the Quran.
Just some friendly advice.
It's fine that we will disagree, and I appreciate the sentiment. I wish you the best as well, and I hope you realize that you don't need gods to be a good person.
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God is Not Great, by Christpher Hitchens
Fabulous book if u hate religion!
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NaughtYarr, God is the being that made my cock the gorgeous thing it is to behold....so PRAISE THE LORD!
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I'm an atheist, but I don't HATE religion... I have a family member that's a minister, as a matter of fact. I love kind, generous, compassionate religious people who believe in helping others and loving their neighbor. I hate anyone who forces their beliefs on others though -- religious zealots in particular, I suppose, but... Yes. I think people who believe in God are mildly delusional.
But for good reason... it's a fucking cold, dark, cruel universe. Bed time stories make you feel snuggly :)
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Maybe Zipstyle's gorgeous cock will make you feel snuggly too...
especially before bedtime ;)
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Maybe Zipstyle's gorgeous cock will make you feel snuggly too...
especially before bedtime ;)
hahahhaaa
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Maybe Zipstyle's gorgeous cock will make you feel snuggly too...
especially before bedtime ;)
OH my, NaughtYarr! :O
You bad little PYT. I just might have to snuggle up to you once you reach 50 posts... ;)
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If I labeled my belief as a "religeon" if you wanna call it that, it would simply be the religion of Earth. We all originate and are working living parts of a larger LIVING "organism" if you will. If you open up your mind and connect yourself with the Earth and all its wonderful creation, you feel this feeling shine through your being more true than any other "theory" or "idea" out there. Unfortunately people do not know how to do this much anymore, myself included(Although I am trying to reconnect). We have been truely cut off from our extremely deep connection with the Earth, and people do not understand what life means any more for this very reason. You wonder why people are always questioning and so confused about, well what does life mean? who created us? why are we here? On and On, when If you really focus on your life, and used the abilities every human has but is held dormant, You could discover whole new truths about your existence then you could even begin to comprehend before. I dont know, I am just rambling now but what I feel is a gist of "true religion" And I dont understand why people think there has to be this ultimate meaning to life, like everthing happens for a reason, because our world is literally so random and chaotic you can not even begin to organize things in a way like that. Things do not happen for a deeper mysterious reason, Things happen by chance. We happened by CHANCE. This is the very reason the topic is so "mysterious" to people. Because of how much of a miracle it seems we are here, yet also not at the same time because there are millions of other planets in the right distance of stars to support life like that on Earth. And In that respect I also do not believe conditions have to be so similar to Earth to produce life. I think it is totally possible for life to form on another planet that is for example, based on another element other than carbon. Most people think this would be impossible, but why? Why would this be impossible when the only life we have been able to study is that of our own Earth. And sure, it makes totall sense for life to be based off Carbon chains on Earth because of the way they work, and THE EARTH IS NATURALLY FULL OF CARBON! So of course life is going to form around this element, why would it not?? Energy takes the path of least resistance with any experiment you could create. This is very true with life energy too. Why do you think celestial bodies like planets, and stars are all mostly perfect spheres?? Because that is the most energy effecient way for them to form in the universe. Same reason water droplets come out round. These truths are all around us, and can even be tapped into with a strong enough brain. I fear that humanity is so isolated from its ties to the Earth, we are going to be the cause of its next major extinction. I only hope that whenever the world may end, that ALL of humanity is completely wiped out, allowing a clean slate to begin again, because surely, if we survive, we will just ruin it again... =(
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You all
If you think religion is obsolete or bogus of have any doubt go watch
Miracles Of The Quran Documentary English Full Part 1/4 2011 HD
search it on youtube. you might be suprised
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There is no logic in religion, only irrationality.
However I believe there is nothing wrong with creationism.
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Here we go again.
There is logic in religion.
If God created you would if not be logical to be thankful to Him by worship?
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Here we go again.
There is logic in religion.
If God created you would if not be logical to be thankful to Him by worship?
There is no proof that "God" created me.
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Here we go again.
There is logic in religion.
If God created you would if not be logical to be thankful to Him by worship?
Want to know what I'd like to say to God if there is one? It's quite brief, actually: I'm coming for you, you sadistic fuck.
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We do not know everything. That is the most truthful thing that any situation, no matter your religion or lack thereof, must accept. Some of us may like to think we do, but we don't. We don't know what was before the big bang, we don't know precisely how life started on earth - or when it started for that matter. There are many, many questions that remain unanswered. We have theories, but as even Hawking admits - some questions just don't have answers until other criteria and/or steps are achieved.
100% agreed. Not only do we not know everything, we cannot know everything. This is simply a fact about the nature of our place within existence. We simply do not have access to the cosmos in its entirety. The details of our existence by definition prevent us from ever fully knowing the answers to some questions about that existence. However:
1. these questions still have correct answers
2. some of the answers we do come up with will be worse than others
3. we can reasonably know when answers are bad or inferior to other answers
4. we can and should upgrade our beliefs by constantly removing all unreasonable claims about existence
[...] Reconciling the beliefs in a God, any God, with the realities of science, were very difficult for me as a kid. And, to be honest, my opinion itself is still mostly science, but that doesn't account for everything.
While technically true, the next logical step is where most people seem to get lost. While the human endeavors of science (chemistry, anthropology, etc) cannot account for "everything", it is more than clear that "everything" is a system bound by rules. Existence has structure. There is no such thing as supernatural phenomena. Most of all, the fact that human understanding is certainly limited does not render supernatural belief any more credible.
[...] admit that even when we think we know, the truth is almost impossible to prove.
Sure, but the conclusions you draw from this—religion and science are compatible, religion is not only harmless but good—are obviously unreasonable. Religions contain much reason, but they are also saddled with unreasonable claims of primacy. We can and should keep the useful pieces of religious wisdom, but to do so we must drop all claims of ultimate truth.
[...] Religious dogma, almost exclusively, spawned from this very human construct... our desire to explain that which we do not understand.
This is a claim that does not stand up to proof. You are claiming that religion "spawned" spirituality, when it is quite clear that this is not the case. We can reasonably know through evidence (see: Chauvet cave), that spiritual mankind existed well before any of today's mythologies.
Yes, this makes a reasonable portion of the explanations obsolete, but it hardly makes religion useless.
You seem to conflate religion with spirituality/self-transcendence. Once you realize that "spiritual" experiences can be had by most humans (and possibly other sentient beings), it should be clear that religion (mythology + dogmatic belief) at its very best is exactly as useful as any other great literary works of fiction. (see: The Iliad, Aesop's Fables, Moby Dick)
Where you may be able to understand the astronomical significance of a 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 chance 4.3 billion years ago that ultimately led to our genesis, that does not mean someone else can too. And, there is proof for neither story... so which does it make right?
It's not about which idea is 100% completely right, it's about which incompatible ideas are better or worse. It is crystal fucking clear that no religion offers a remotely coherent explanation of existence, and it's through the application of reason (science) that we have reached a level of understanding that makes this clear.
We teach children through the use of symbolism and imagery that identifies with their younger, imaginative minds. Does this make the concepts of morality that is driven through some of these concepts, is also obsolete for children? I have yet to encounter scientific theory for why being a good person helps a scientific field. In some cases, these are concepts avoided in scientific communities, as to get the answer may require some immoral methods.
This field of inquiry is definitely avoided by most scientists, which is a significant failing of science so far. We have allowed religion to convince us that a scientific, reasonable approach cannot help us understand morality. We have to stop doing this. Reason is the only path through which we can reliably move toward the best understanding of critically important things like morality, just as it is the only path through which we can gain a continually improving understanding the universe.
The extremes of religion are not caused by religion, they are caused by people, and those same people have equal affects on science. There are examples all throughout history, but there is an extremely recent one. There were Italian geologists and seismologists that went so far as to publish as fact that an earthquake was NOT going to happen, and that any evidence of the sort was a lie. The evidence, which was based upon observable patterns and lead up energy releases that were measurable even within the day before the event, ended up being true - even as those scientists continued to advocate that people were completely safe. They are now in jail, charged with crimes related to the deaths of those that believed the scientists rather than the rest of the world that were telling them to evacuate.
This is not a failure of the philosophy of science. You said it yourself, this is a failure of people. Furthermore it is a failure of those people to make decisions and act according to a commitment to truth. What they did was obviously unethical, unreasonable, and immoral. They deserve to be stripped of all credibility, at the very least.
NaughtYarr, God is the being that made my cock the gorgeous thing it is to behold....so PRAISE THE LORD!
lulz. Nice. I mean...it is a rapturous cock.
I'm an atheist, but I don't HATE religion... I have a family member that's a minister, as a matter of fact. I love kind, generous, compassionate religious people who believe in helping others and loving their neighbor. I hate anyone who forces their beliefs on others though -- religious zealots in particular, I suppose, but... Yes. I think people who believe in God are mildly delusional.
But for good reason... it's a fucking cold, dark, cruel universe. Bed time stories make you feel snuggly :)
It is also a warm, luminous, wonderful universe. We don't need bed time stories to know this, and we especially don't need stories that claim ownership of these qualities.
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I chose not to reply any more.
If you fact that the universe exist does not make you wonder where is all come from.
And have using the basic logic that every thing created does not make you thing that there must be a creator.
Then well.
My time is being wasted
Da da
I still be wish you all the best
in this live and.
The next
PS there are loads of scientific facts in the Quran. In a time when those fact where unknown.
Do some research on science in the Quran if you dare.
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I chose not to reply any more.
Well that was quick.
If you fact that the universe exist does not make you wonder where is all come from.
On the contrary, it does make me wonder. How could it not? Given what humanity has already come to know about the cosmos, no religion has the best answers to all the questions in this category of thought. Therefore, none of them are perfect or unerring. Yet they explicitly claim to be exactly this. This is how we can easily know that religion is not useful to accept as true, even though some conclusions drawn in the context of religion are true. Again, when religion gets answers to these questions right, it does so either by accident or due to reasoning that does not require religious faith.
And have using the basic logic that every thing created does not make you thing that there must be a creator.
Again, a causal universe is not by necessarily a created universe. When you say create, you imply that there was conscious intent. This simply does not cohere with the information we already have and understand about the universe.
Then well.
My time is being wasted
Da da
I still be wish you all the best
in this live and.
The next
Your time is definitely being wasted, but not by me and not by this discussion.
PS there are loads of scientific facts in the Quran. In a time when those fact where unknown. Do some research on science in the Quran if you dare.
I have no problem granting you that, right up front. There are numerous pieces of good wisdom, legitimate knowledge, and true reason contained within most religions, but they are also full of explicitly wrong claims about existence, sadistic laws and practices, bizarre obsessions regarding sexual behavior, and generally unreasonable conclusions about how humans should behave.
Again, we don't need to believe unreasonable things in order to live full, happy lives in harmony with each other. In today's world, it is precisely this kind of belief that presents (both expicitly and implicitly) a threat to the survival of our species and possibly even all life on Earth.
I wish you all the best as well, but only in this life. This life is all that can possibly matter.
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Religion is a great tool for those who are rolling off their mortal coil.
Gives them hope rather than just nothing.
Once those chemical reactions stop.....you stop, no soul, no reincarnation, no heaven, no hell.
We've all been science-ed
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I rather like you, abitpeckish. Please do stick around for awhile; lately there's just been such a terrible lack of -- well, of people I agree with and/or respect, to be perfectly blunt ::)
... Oh, I jest, come now -- the universe is much too dark and empty a place when I don't actively seek humor at every turn. That's all.
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I'm not a big supporter of organized religion. the followers are just too much like sheep then. I personally believe everyone should find their own peace with whatever form of god they themselves feel works for them. for me: God is just a chill guy who's going to let me enter heaven (or gives me whatever reward he gives to the good guys) as long as I'm a good person. That's because I can't accept that an atheist that dedicates his life to helping others is going to hell while a christian/muslim/jewish rapist is going to heaven just because they believed or didn't believe in the right religion. A friend of mine thinks god is some sort of energy source. that's his personal relationship with his interpretation of god, and as long as that helps him feel better in any way, my reaction is: sure, good for him.
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If religion is bogus why is Islam the fasts growing religion in the world?
abitpeckish
Did you every read the Quran?
Did you know is science in the Quran. The big bang, how the mountains are like pegs. About the uniqueness of the finger print. Where iron comes from.
Look at the decadence of western society. At the high suicide rates. You dont find those in amongst most Muslims. Do your own research from the Islamic point of view. How muslims explain there religion.
Dont keep on Quoting some guy how clearly has some beaf with religion for what ever reason.
Religion is food for the soul. If you do not believe in a soul I pity you.
People will be killing people for what every reason.
If people believe in the fact that God created the everything and created the first two human. And we are all their descents. So then we are all brother and sister. Would you kill your brother? I surely would not.
The Quran challenges people to think and ponder the nature of creation. Go read it. You can find a free copy maybe at your local mosque.
And if you have not read the Quran (in its correct translation) then I dont thing you are speaking with real knowledge.
Miracles Of The Quran Documentary English Full Part 1/4 2011 HD go watch this if you dare.
And if you believe that design needs designer is not not rational prove for the existence of a designer.
Well then I dont see any point the continuation of this discussion.
Because I how many examples I would bring if you just simple refuse the think it might be possible that God exist well then. This is the end.
I still you wish you the best.
Go watch the miracles of the Quran.
Just some friendly advice.
In my opinion, All religions may be different but some like Islam , Judaism and Christianity all have some similarities.
"If people believe in the fact that God created the everything and created the first two human. And we are all their descents. So then we are all brother and sister. Would you kill your brother? I surely would not. " So no matter who you have children with it's incest?
"The Quran challenges people to think and ponder the nature of creation." How can it challenge people to think about the nature of creation, if it tells you that god created things? even if it tells you to ponder them surely it tells you to ponder them with the fact that god created things included.
Also islam is the most misunderstood religion in the world, Especially by a lot of muslims who follow it. It is the biggest cause of religious deaths in the 21st century. Biggest cause of woman's rights violations and in more ways that 1 lives in the past. Also what i mean by misunderstood by many who follow it is that there are many people who are muslims, but do not understand the way the quran was meant to be followed, And it is very easy to misinterpret things that are mentioned in the quran.
on op of it all you have to remember that these books were written thousands of years ago when science was not as advanced as it it now, and cultures were much different. If you were to follow the original bible to a tee, and follow the original transcripts of the Quran you would most certainly get arrested for something or another.
I live in a fairly multicultural area, and a lot of the Muslims that live around here think that Christianity and the UK and America are "out to get them". And i dont understand why if they think it so much and are so radical about their beliefs and hate for the country's they live in why they dont go back to their own country. Now im not racist, I have friends of all faiths, But i can tell you from first hand experience, Jews are a lot more tolerant of Muslims than vice versa. Also, If i was to say something about islam i would be accused of being racist, but however i often hear people from the east "down talking" white people as a whole and it is clearly racist, but the police would call it freedom of speech.
The uk and america are very tolerant, if you were to say these things in a muslim country you would be fucked. Unfair trial the whole lot.
Everybody white i know would never go to a muslim country with their girlfriends,daughters or wives, and those that have regret it because they go throguh markets etc and muslims are still trying to buy the girls and grab them touch them up as they go to look around the country or market. They still sell and buy people that is just one instance of them living in the past. I for one would never in my life take y girlfriend there because of the fact that she would probably be kidnapped. That frustrates me.
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Not only wisdom but real science fact that could never have been know at that time.
Like that he earth is rond. That hearing of the baby develops before it can see. Stuff that only recently has been discovered.
Go watch miracles of the quran on you tube.
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Altho I'm an atheist I do think some people have a need for religious expression.
Not everything is logical and rational...Art being an obvious example.
And there are some questions that science will never be able to answer (for us..for instance is it ever okay to take another human life) and yet people do feel a need to find an answer to such questions.
Most of the problems caused by religions are not due to the religions themselves (however potty the ideas) but by fanatics within the religions. The same types of fanatics can be just as bad outside of religions...look at the harm done by Hitler, Stalin, Mao Pol Pot....
I think most religious people left to themselves would be reasonably tolerant they just need to learn not to follow the crazies
Everything would be fine if Religion and Science just respected eachother's separate domains.
By the way Jind~ Who created the Creator?
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Altho I'm an atheist I do think some people have a need for religious expression.
Not everything is logical and rational...Art being an obvious example.
And there are some questions that science will never be able to answer (for us..for instance is it ever okay to take another human life) and yet people do feel a need to find an answer to such questions.
Most of the problems caused by religions are not due to the religions themselves (however potty the ideas) but by fanatics within the religions. The same types of fanatics can be just as bad outside of religions...look at the harm done by Hitler, Stalin, Mao Pol Pot....
I think most religious people left to themselves would be reasonably tolerant they just need to learn not to follow the crazies
Everything would be fine if Religion and Science just respected eachother's separate domains.
By the way Jind~ Who created the Creator?
If you are an atheist I assume that you regards science as the ultimate answer to every thing.
I recommend you what: Miracles of the Quran. Look it up on youtube or what ever.
It talks about all the scientific fact that are in the Quran that only have been discovered recently. And in now way could have been now 1400 years ago.
And about who created the Creator. If begin to ask that question you get a never ending question. Like who created the Creator, who created the creator of the creator and who created the creator of the creator of the creator. So the answer no one. The Creator created everything and He Himself was not created.
Islam unlike Christianity never oppressed science. In fact the went hand in hand and a lot of the modern thing where invented in the Islamic Golden age. Algebra, the concept of the zero was finalized and most surgical equipment used today were invented during these times.
The Quran challenge to people to think and to ponder world and its nature.
So if you like science and are a bit interested in religion look it up
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Religion is a great tool for those who are rolling off their mortal coil.
Gives them hope rather than just nothing.
Once those chemical reactions stop.....you stop, no soul, no reincarnation, no heaven, no hell.
We've all been science-ed
This comfort mechanism is not only unnecessary, it comes at too high a price. A fulfilled, meaningful life fully lived is all we can hope for, and to lie about this is to doom ourselves to constant suffering during the short time we have to be aware.
I rather like you, abitpeckish. Please do stick around for awhile; lately there's just been such a terrible lack of -- well, of people I agree with and/or respect, to be perfectly blunt ::)
... Oh, I jest, come now -- the universe is much too dark and empty a place when I don't actively seek humor at every turn. That's all.
Thanks :) I'll probably stick around and see what you shady fucks are all about.
[...] A friend of mine thinks god is some sort of energy source. that's his personal relationship with his interpretation of god, and as long as that helps him feel better in any way, my reaction is: sure, good for him.
The only reasonable method of believing in gods is to remove all unreasonable claims, which leaves us with a god concept that is completely indistinguishable from no gods at all. An ideal. At that point, there is no functional difference between believing and not believing in gods. The only difference between a rational atheist and a rational theist is that the atheist makes one fewer assumption.
Not only wisdom but real science fact that could never have been know at that time. Like that he earth is rond. That hearing of the baby develops before it can see. Stuff that only recently has been discovered. Go watch miracles of the quran on youtube.
Not true. The concept of a spherical Earth dates back to at least the 6th century BCE [1]. 8,000 years ago. Over 6,500 years before Mohammed. Even if it were true, it would only further demonstrate the incomplete and dreadfully inconsistent nature of religious "knowledge".
[1] wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth
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Altho I'm an atheist I do think some people have a need for religious expression.
Religion was an outlet for thousands of years, a prism through which we began to make sense of being alive and aware. I would never claim that we discard the amazing, beautiful religious expressions we have accumulated over the years. We have outgrown religion itself, however, and if we can't be truthful about this it will continue to be a very severe mental vulnerability.
Not everything is logical and rational...Art being an obvious example.
The phenomenon of human expression (Art, Music, etc) makes perfect sense, given what we already know about consciousness, its contents, and how the human brain functions.
And there are some questions that science will never be able to answer (for us..for instance is it ever okay to take another human life) and yet people do feel a need to find an answer to such questions.
There are definitely questions, and even entire categories of thought, that science cannot make sense of. But morality is not one of them. A scientific approach to understanding morality will be absolutely necessary if we are ever to wake up and realize we're one species that has awareness, power, and therefore responsibility toward all other life on (at least) this planet.
Most of the problems caused by religions are not due to the religions themselves (however potty the ideas) but by fanatics within the religions. The same types of fanatics can be just as bad outside of religions...look at the harm done by Hitler, Stalin, Mao Pol Pot....
This is always what comes up, because people completely fail to grasp that religion is not the core issue. The core issue is unreason, and all religion contains copious amounts of it. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot...these were evil, immoral men who were able to achieve their nefarious deeds by taking advantage of the fact that the common person is uneducated, shallow thinking, and ensnared in all kinds of unreasonable thought patterns (e.g. religion). To paraphrase Sam Harris again: I know of no society that ever met its demise because its people became entirely too reasonable or demanding of logic and evidence.
I think most religious people left to themselves would be reasonably tolerant they just need to learn not to follow the crazies
RELIGION is crazy, so no they wouldn't. How do I know? Because they HAVEN'T. For thousands of years.
Everything would be fine if Religion and Science just respected eachother's separate domains.
Sure. As soon as all religions stop making claims about existence, morality, human rights, sexual habits, etc, we'll be well on our way.
By the way Jind~ Who created the Creator?
The human behavioral phenomenon we call "ego" created the Creator. As the ego is itself an illusion, so are its creations.
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@abitpeckish
I've really enjoyed reading your posts and most of what you say I agree with put there are a couple of points I think you might be wrong on.
The first is the fact that you seem to think we can do without religion but if I've understood the various things I've read then they can be summarised as follows.
Sam Harris again: I know of no society that ever met its demise because its people became entirely too reasonable or demanding of logic and evidence
If there ever were such a society as Sam Harris describes it seems it wouldn't survive long. Entirely rational entities can never be creative (computers for example) studies from neuroscience seem to indicate that an excess of rationality seems to stunt creativity and perhaps even the ability to make the simplest of decisions. Man's genius comes from his creativity but the price we pay for creativity is thast we are highly irrational. This is a double edged sword. Because of it we have the beauty of Art but also the absurdities we find in religions.
As regards to Science and Morality, Science can explain where our sense of morality comes from as it can also tell us where our sense of beauty comes from but science cannot tell us if an action is moral no more than it can tell us if a painting is beautiful.
@Jund~ perhaps you didn't fully read or understand my post but I DO NOT think science has all the answers and I do think that religion can do some good but it isn't for everyone.
Also if you accept the fact that there can be one thing that didn't require a creator (The creator himself) that leads logically to the fact that there could be more than one thing that didn't need a creator which in turn leads to the idea that nothing needed a creator (which is pretty much the truth).
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@abitpeckish I've really enjoyed reading your posts and most of what you say I agree with put there are a couple of points I think you might be wrong on.
The first is the fact that you seem to think we can do without religion but if I've understood the various things I've read then they can be summarised as follows.
Sam Harris again: I know of no society that ever met its demise because its people became entirely too reasonable or demanding of logic and evidence
If there ever were such a society as Sam Harris describes it seems it wouldn't survive long. Entirely rational entities can never be creative (computers for example) studies from neuroscience seem to indicate that an excess of rationality seems to stunt creativity and perhaps even the ability to make the simplest of decisions. Man's genius comes from his creativity but the price we pay for creativity is thast we are highly irrational. This is a double edged sword. Because of it we have the beauty of Art but also the absurdities we find in religions.
I am aware of no studies that even remotely suggest this. Creativity is a feature of human consciousness, and some human brains are more adept at it than others. Being rational is a goal, not a state. We cannot reasonably expect to be 100% reasonable. It's just not how we're built. Rationality is the framework with which we can hold ourselves responsible for the consequences of our thoughts, decisions, and actions. We cannot process all the information of the universe as it occurs, so we develop shortcuts to draw conclusions, make predictions. Reason is the practice of honing the effectiveness of these skills, and we can be better or worse at it. Creativity just happens, it's inherent in the nature of thought. You don't have to try to think in order to think thoughts, and the same goes for creativity.
As regards to Science and Morality, Science can explain where our sense of morality comes from as it can also tell us where our sense of beauty comes from but science cannot tell us if an action is moral no more than it can tell us if a painting is beautiful.
It can, and it does. Once you allow that "the maximum flourishing of all conscious beings" and "the maximum amount of suffering of all conscious beings" are reasonable peaks and valleys on a spectrum of well-being, morality follows through scientific thinking alone.
Also if you accept the fact that there can be one thing that didn't require a creator (The creator himself) that leads logically to the fact that there could be more than one thing that didn't need a creator which in turn leads to the idea that nothing needed a creator (which is pretty much the truth).
I'll point out again that "God" is borne of the ego illusion (the Self). Take a moment and try to observe the thoughts running through your mind. Stop them. Think no thoughts. Can you do it? For how long? If you can't stop your brain from thinking thoughts, where are those unwanted thoughts coming from, and who is "you" anyway?
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@abitpeckish
There are no direct studies done into whether or not an excess of rationality stifles creativity however neuroscientists have noticed a correlation between an excess of rationality in conditions along the autism spectrum from severe autism to high functioning aspergers to a lack of creativity. Certain types of autists (the so-called idiot savants) can give incredible renderings of musical compositions created by others and yet are incapable of writing the most lacklustre original composition that would be well within the capability of much less musically gifted 'normal' people.
They can produce incredibly detailed drawings that are almost photographic in detail but cannot produce any art that comes from their own imagination. The least talented of 'normal' children can do a drawing of something they have devised themselves.
Other work done with people who have suffered damage to their pre-frontal lobes destroying the emotional centres but leaving the rational centres intact have shown that these people can't make the simplest of decisions for example choosing between to similar products in a supermarket. A lot of high functioning aspergers who are capable of great feats of logical reasoning similarly had extreme difficulty in making simple decisions in their everyday life. Paul Dirac one of the greatest physicists of the 20th century (probably next only to Einstein) was a very typical example of this.
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If I labeled my belief as a "religeon" if you wanna call it that, it would simply be the religion of Earth. We all originate and are working living parts of a larger LIVING "organism" if you will. If you open up your mind and connect yourself with the Earth and all its wonderful creation, you feel this feeling shine through your being more true than any other "theory" or "idea" out there. Unfortunately people do not know how to do this much anymore, myself included(Although I am trying to reconnect). We have been truely cut off from our extremely deep connection with the Earth, and people do not understand what life means any more for this very reason.
You can learn to access this kind of truth through meditation. For most people, spiritual experiences are both extremely rare and occur at random. Many people even complete their entire lives without once experiencing the connection of self-transcendence that you are talking about. I find this to be tragic. Most humans not only have the biology necessary for spiritual experience, but through meditation* we can teach ourselves how to reliably enter that state. Furthermore, we can do this without adopting unreasonable beliefs.
* Meditation is a hell of a lot of work. Thankfully, we can more easily establish a "proof of concept" to the untrained through psychedelics such as LSD, psilocybin, etc
You wonder why people are always questioning and so confused about, well what does life mean? who created us? why are we here? On and On, when If you really focus on your life, and used the abilities every human has but is held dormant, You could discover whole new truths about your existence then you could even begin to comprehend before.
Many do in fact wonder about this, and in fact obsess over it, but I do not and I need not. This obsession seems to me quite natural, given the nature of human consciousness. We cannot help but think new thoughts. Combine this with the character of our intelligence, and we're booted up into what seems to itself as a fully formed subject (personality). But this is an illusion the subject carries about itself. Not_A_Sheep is just a product of a brain that resides within a primate on a planet somewhere within the cosmos.
I dont know, I am just rambling now but what I feel is a gist of "true religion" And I dont understand why people think there has to be this ultimate meaning to life, like everthing happens for a reason, because our world is literally so random and chaotic you can not even begin to organize things in a way like that. Things do not happen for a deeper mysterious reason, Things happen by chance. We happened by CHANCE. This is the very reason the topic is so "mysterious" to people.
Agreed. The only "ultimate" meaning we can possibly have, to orient ourselves toward minimizing the suffering of our selves and all other conscious beings, is self-evident. We don't need to postulate anything more than this to give ourselves purpose.
Because of how much of a miracle it seems we are here, yet also not at the same time because there are millions of other planets in the right distance of stars to support life like that on Earth. And In that respect I also do not believe conditions have to be so similar to Earth to produce life. I think it is totally possible for life to form on another planet that is for example, based on another element other than carbon. Most people think this would be impossible, but why? Why would this be impossible when the only life we have been able to study is that of our own Earth. And sure, it makes totall sense for life to be based off Carbon chains on Earth because of the way they work, and THE EARTH IS NATURALLY FULL OF CARBON! So of course life is going to form around this element, why would it not?? Energy takes the path of least resistance with any experiment you could create. This is very true with life energy too. Why do you think celestial bodies like planets, and stars are all mostly perfect spheres?? Because that is the most energy effecient way for them to form in the universe. Same reason water droplets come out round.
Here's where we can sense that you are losing your bearings. Planets, stars, celestial bodies, etc are not "mostly perfect spheres". Not by a long shot. There is no good reason to take your line of thinking past the point of reason, and this makes others either suspicious of your thought process or tricked into believing untrue things. As I mention above (and below), the facts alone are enough.
These truths are all around us, and can even be tapped into with a strong enough brain. I fear that humanity is so isolated from its ties to the Earth, we are going to be the cause of its next major extinction. I only hope that whenever the world may end, that ALL of humanity is completely wiped out, allowing a clean slate to begin again, because surely, if we survive, we will just ruin it again... =(
I share this fear, which is why I think these kinds of discussions are important. The thought of even one person reading this thread having an epiphany–a momentary glimpse of the simple truth and beauty of conscious existence, a realization that both your mind and body exist within the same medium, the fundamentally NON-dual nature of mankind–triggered by a deeply truthful assessment of what it is like to exist...this is what motivates me. We can reconnect with our nature, and we can do it entirely within the framework of logic and reason.
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Lots of good points abitpeckish, and when I said the whole spherical thing, I mean obviously nothing is perfectly shaped EVER, but generally the form which matter shapes in space is sphere-like. But +1 to you for sure, Meditation is very important, and it actually kinda sucks that one of only ways people can learn "these truths" in this day and age is through psychadelics. I do remember one of my good "hippie" friends explaining to me how one could learn to create "psychadelic experiences" for themselves without actually needing to ingest a chemical. I just remember thinking wwhat he was saying sounded so awesome, as of course he went into a much deeper explanation, of which I cannot remember, nonetheless interesting.
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Lots of good points abitpeckish, and when I said the whole spherical thing, I mean obviously nothing is perfectly shaped EVER, but generally the form which matter shapes in space is sphere-like.
Pardon me, but I believe you're mistaken: the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a perfect circle is the irrational number pi. The entire concept of "perfection," is debatable and subjective, but if you just mean a perfectly spherical shape, that's entirely possible. How an irrational number is possible I don't claim to understand, but that's different :)
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religion is just an other ideology
And an ideology is a collection of morals and values from which law are derived.
Does it matter on what those law are based on a book some consider a revelation? On a philosophical idea?
Should you not judge an ideology on its law and the effect it had on civilization?
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religion is just an other ideology
And an ideology is a collection of morals and values from which law are derived.
Does it matter on what those law are based on a book some consider a revelation? On a philosophical idea?
Should you not judge an ideology on its law and the effect it had on civilization?
I think pragmatism is generally a wonderful thing, but the problem with what you're suggesting is that unless one concept or belief is effectively identical to another, they're eventually going to lead one to differing conclusions. So even if your positions today are the same as mine, if your reasoning is not, eventually your positions will differ from mine -- so in short, it matters very much what you believe and why.
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Well duh, I learned the Pi rules in fucking 6th grade dude, Lol if you wanna keep cycling thoughts like that we could also just go down even farther to the molecules of the graphite or ink or whatever we use to draw a circle that fits into the rules of Pi (Thereby making it "perfect") When you go down to the sub micron level of this "circle" You will notice that there is no true circle at all, in fact all the nuclei of the molecules are actively sharing a cloud of electrons, vibrating all around each other at the speed of light. Perfection cannot exist in anyway, except inside the mind. There is no such thing as something being perfect, really. If you lookup some of the crazy shit in quantum physics you will learn that our entire universe is a sort of "hologram" in the way that it exists, and the only way the computer exists right in front of you is because you are percieving it through your multiple senses. Only through are perceptions do we create "the world" we live in. If we were not here to percieve the things around us consciously, then everything we see as solid objects everyday is actually just a bunch of waves of energy all interconnected, denser in some areas then others. But the fact we are here to consciously perceive that is what literally makes up what we know of our universe. There is much more around us then just the "physical plane" we can see with our human eyeballs. Lol I always end up rambling on posts like this =p
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Well duh, I learned the Pi rules in fucking 6th grade dude, Lol if you wanna keep cycling thoughts like that we could also just go down even farther to the molecules of the graphite or ink or whatever we use to draw a circle that fits into the rules of Pi (Thereby making it "perfect") When you go down to the sub micron level of this "circle" You will notice that there is no true circle at all, in fact all the nuclei of the molecules are actively sharing a cloud of electrons, vibrating all around each other at the speed of light. Perfection cannot exist in anyway, except inside the mind. There is no such thing as something being perfect, really. If you lookup some of the crazy shit in quantum physics you will learn that our entire universe is a sort of "hologram" in the way that it exists, and the only way the computer exists right in front of you is because you are percieving it through your multiple senses. Only through are perceptions do we create "the world" we live in. If we were not here to percieve the things around us consciously, then everything we see as solid objects everyday is actually just a bunch of waves of energy all interconnected, denser in some areas then others. But the fact we are here to consciously perceive that is what literally makes up what we know of our universe. There is much more around us then just the "physical plane" we can see with our human eyeballs. Lol I always end up rambling on posts like this =p
Obviously you felt insulted despite my attempt to not be aggressive. You seem to have missed my point though: "perfect" is a human concept. It exists only in our conceptualization of reality -- it is not an objective standard that one can point to, and as such will vary from individual to individual. Therefore, pi is not "perfect," nor is anything else. It may be perfect *to you at this moment* but that's very different than universally, unequivocally "perfect."
... I'm re-reading your paragraph to try to respond, and... dear God your understanding of particle physics is -- well, misguided, quite frankly. We're not a bunch of waves of energy, what you're referring to are the wave functions that describe the probability of a particle being found at any given discrete point in space. That's different than energy. They also sort of are interconnected, but at a certain point they cease to have any influence on each other. For example, a golf ball can be guaranteed to be in a specific place, but an electron generally cannot.
The golf ball can because the wave functions from the objects on the other side of the universe make no difference -- anything could exist over there and it wouldn't influence the golf ball really at all. So... is that really interconnected? Sort of, but not really -- we're not all quite as interconnected as you seem to believe.
To be honest... I'm not going to bother with the rest of what you said. I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Please read a physicist's description of quantum mechanics next time, not a religious nut's.
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Only those who have never experienced true miracles can consider it as bogus or obsolete.
Consider after death, try to comprehend what will happen in an atheist world when we die - everything just goes black, you seize to exist. Is that really what you want?
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Well your first whole half of your post goes along exactly with what I am trying to say, and Full true Physicists and Full true Quantam mechanicists (lol real word?) Have many points on which they believe almost total opposites, I think they need to be melded together to form a true understanding of the universe. And yes, every single drop of energy in the universe is completely and totally interconnected all effecting eachother under Neutons 3rd law of physics. Sorry if it seems I am not thinking of others opinions, but when I mentally connect to this energy I can literally FEEL this. But regardless of all this, you should check out the info on the famous DOUBLE SLIT EXPERIMENT, It will blow your mind if you have not heard of it yet, and really challenge your comprehension, haha almost couldnt follow the ideas brought forth with how high I was.
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To SelfSovereignty.
To world you see around is perfect. Let me elaborate. Did you ever played to bug computer games where you sometimes could walk trough walls or get stuck in some corner or where there where major glitches in the psychics engine, major screen tearing and texture pop ins?
Did you ever experience such thing in real live.
So in that sense the world you see around you is perfect. I do not not mean human society.
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Only those who have never experienced true miracles can consider it as bogus or obsolete.
There is no such thing as a miracle. Full fucking stop. You may have experienced a surprising or amazing event and even had a spiritual experience when it occurred, but if it happened then it was 100% compliant with the rules of the universe. That people call such events "miracles" is just confirmation bias.
Consider after death, try to comprehend what will happen in an atheist world when we die - everything just goes black, you seize to exist. Is that really what you want?
Is this what you consider logic? It does not matter what I want, it only matters what is true or what reasonable to believe is true. Regardless of what I want, I will die. When I die, I can *by definition* no longer want to live anyway. I wasn't happy, suffering, or even conscious in the billions of years before I was born. So it will be when I die.
Consider life, and try to comprehend what the consequences of the absurd belief that life is a temporary precursor to an eternal afterlife. Now combine this absurd belief with others like "if you kill yourself in an attempt to kill others who don't believe the same stupid shit you do, your afterlife will be the best". Is that really what you want?
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NOT_A_SHEEP, again you are going off the rails. You're taking deep, complicated concepts of science and hollowing them out to simply the value of the words chosen by scientists. You're making logical leaps that just do not hold. Listen to SS, it's pretty clear she knows more about what you're talking about than you.
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Lol when we die we all return to the "mother energy mass" or whatever the fuck you'd wanna call it, thats why people believe in reincarnation, because energy is infinitely recycled, thats pretty much how the universe ends, athiests do not believe in total blackness, but they do not bend down to believe completely and totally another persons ideas without first unobjectively experiencing the theories and ideas for themselves. And your whole computer game to life perfection analogy is completely flawed and in my mind not valid reasoning in any aspect. Sorry, not bashing you, but I think if you were to use 3 words to most accurately describe the universe, perfect would definitely not be one, more like, RANDOMNESS, BEAUTYIFUL, CHAOS. I think the rise of life in the universe serves a way of gathering all this craziness and chaos and organizing it as efficiently as possible, lol that is just a random thought I literally just had though.
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Well is you are so sure about that. Why dont you wish for death then?
Would you ever wish for death?
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Some people actually do wish for death all the time. The rate of suicide is actually rising (hmmmm, wonder why?) But on a serious note I just realized how many goddam viewpoints and strong opinions I am going to encounter in a thread like this lol anyone know how to take a Post off of your feed??
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I do not mean wishing for death from depression. But being happy and enjoying your life and still longing for death.
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religion is just an other ideology
And an ideology is a collection of morals and values from which law are derived.
Does it matter on what those law are based on a book some consider a revelation? On a philosophical idea?
Should you not judge an ideology on its law and the effect it had on civilization?
It always strikes me as odd to see religous apologists resorting to utilitarian arguments to support their dogmas. SS did a good job responding to this. Beliefs are important, because beliefs shape how we interpret, decide, and act. If your belief system is full of obvious nonsense, you have to remove that nonsense if you're going to avoid potentially horrific consequences. The problem with religious belief is that there is no way to remove the nonsense, as religion claims supreme authority over everything.
To SelfSovereignty.
To world you see around is perfect. Let me elaborate. Did you ever played to bug computer games where you sometimes could walk trough walls or get stuck in some corner or where there where major glitches in the psychics engine, major screen tearing and texture pop ins?
Did you ever experience such thing in real live.
So in that sense the world you see around you is perfect. I do not not mean human society.
You have left no room for your own belief system in this same "perfect" world you're speaking of. There is no room for Allah. Or Yahweh, or Zeus, or Satan, or Ram, or Odin, or Loki, or any other god with a personality. The only god that can possibly exist is a pantheistic god, where "everything" is god and it is not conscious in any way that is meaningful to humans. This kind of belief is functionally indistinguishable from a universe in which there is no god at all.
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The only way to fix and better balance the human belief system is a clean slate, But If more people just based their beliefs solely on facts, and patterns from their own everyday experiences, completely unobjectively with no bias interference, I believe the world would be much less conflicted. Instead, our species is constantly having an information overload of all kinds of "static", irrelevant information that just furthers all the confusion, and differences.
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In the Cherokee language, there are only three numbers - one, two and plenty.
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there is a saying.
Dont debate with an very intelligent person or with a fool.
My believe is not based nonsense. That is your opinion and what ever I can say the same thing about what ever you believe systems is based.
The is a verse in the Quran that says that The Prophet Muhammed has been send to mankind as a Compassion.
And there is enough scientific fact in the Quran that where unknown in the time of its revelation. If you are in doubt go browse this website and read every thing then come back and continue on claiming that my believe system is based on nonsense. http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html. If you reply with out reading it this will be my last reply to you.
But personally I think you have taken as a deity your own whims and ego and intellect. And there will be a day when we will know who is right and who is wrong.
I wish you the best and may you be guided.
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Dude, the fact that that information was written in the Quran, then it was not unknown knowledge at the time by a long shot. Lol the people writing the passages in the book, from what you are saying, fully understood these "science" ideas. Only recently have human beings been able to actually rediscover a lot of truth's that we used to know. There was a point in our history where the "great memory" shared amongst our DNA and concsiousness pool, and physically through stories and records in time, was almost wiped clean. There are many many many different discoveries that have baffled around this. Just some food for thought, because you keep stating the Quran has scientific proofs in it not proven until recently, but this contradicts itself because the proofs WERE recorded, You have read it with your own eyes. Therefor it has already been proven and understood, yet obviously lost through time. Just think about that and apply the concept of it too how long we have allegedly been here. You can literally sit here for years straight without even getting up debating all the ins and outs of your ideas and beliefs, but none of them will ever be 100% true, It is nearly fucking impossible for a single human being to come across the complete truth in every single aspect of life, spirituality, and the likes. Rather you must combine peices of ideas from here and there, cascading through history to ever come close to building up a true understanding of all this deep shit. And even then would it never be able to reach 100%
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To fact were recorded while the were unknown because the Quran claims that it is a revelation for the Creator of the universe. So yes know human could every write and guess 100 percent of unknown scientific fact.
And its highly unlikely that those facts were discovered then lost in time. Because we have text some dating back 2500 years. If so those scientific discoveries were so important we would have evidence of there existent.
And about true 100 precent understanding. If you would accepted that God exists then it would not be so hard so reason that from His wisdom and Mercy He would have informed us about the nature of existent and about every aspect of this life be spirituality or any thing else
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Some people actually do wish for death all the time. The rate of suicide is actually rising (hmmmm, wonder why?) But on a serious note I just realized how many goddam viewpoints and strong opinions I am going to encounter in a thread like this lol anyone know how to take a Post off of your feed??
Please don't ignore this thread. You are so close to getting it. All you have to do is become a little more aware of when your thoughts begin to stray from the path of reason. You don't have to take every line of thought on a descent into meaninglessness, and in fact EVERY line of thought can be destroyed in this way. We must learn to be skillful with our discursive thought mechanisms, and only go so far as is reasonable.
The only way to fix and better balance the human belief system is a clean slate, But If more people just based their beliefs solely on facts, and patterns from their own everyday experiences, completely unobjectively with no bias interference, I believe the world would be much less conflicted. Instead, our species is constantly having an information overload of all kinds of "static", irrelevant information that just furthers all the confusion, and differences.
I agree with you. I have been agreeing with you on this point. The thing is...I'm not advocating what you think I'm advocating. Not only am I not advocating it, it's not really possible. Our biology prevents us from being 100% rational and free of bias. We absolutely will always have to take shortcuts (e.g. belief-based decision making), but we are free to and should analyze how we do so on the basis of logic and reason. Sometimes, maybe even most times, we will be wrong. Reason gives us the tools to free us from a destiny of ALWAYS being wrong about certain questions, and more importantly it gives us the ability to reliably figure out which answers are better or worse than others. We can't change our nature, but through we can reliably minimize its negative manifestations and maximize the positive ones.
You're taking the ideas I've put forth, trying to extend them dogmatically both outward and inward, and ultimately drawing incorrect conclusions about these ideas. You're almost there, Not_A_Sheep, you just have to learn how to recognize when you're breaching the borders of reason and especially how to stop and back up when you do.
there is a saying. Dont debate with an very intelligent person or with a fool.
Wait, why wouldn't I want to debate with a very intelligent person?
My believe is not based nonsense. That is your opinion and what ever I can say the same thing about what ever you believe systems is based.
The is a verse in the Quran that says that The Prophet Muhammed has been send to mankind as a Compassion.
And there is enough scientific fact in the Quran that where unknown in the time of its revelation. If you are in doubt go browse this website and read every thing then come back and continue on claiming that my believe system is based on nonsense. http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html. If you reply with out reading it this will be my last reply to you.
Alright then, let's have a go. I have chosen 4 examples.
The relativity of time[1]: There is absolutely nothing scientific or even specific about the language in the cited examples. If the Quran had actually given us scientific knowledge, then we would have known about the specifics of relativity 1300 years before Einstein. Yet we didn't. This is what is meant by "confirmation bias": you're taking scientific knowledge that has been painstakingly gained over centuries of methodical work and retrofitting them to vague passages in your holy book.
The expansion of the universe[2]: Yet again, poetically imprecise language being labelled as science. Perhaps if the Quran said "And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. [And you shall know Our work by its color when you measure the heavens.]" MAYBE that would make a scientist look twice, but even that is so non-specific as to be impossibly vague.
Sub-atomic particles[3]: This is quite obviously the product of translation(a), and the claim that the Quran is speaking about atoms is basically a lie. BUT, let's go ahead and assume that the concept of the atom was in fact intended. The concept of the atom was already 1000 years old when Muhammad was born(b), so the Quran wouldn't have been talking about anything new. Furthermore, Greek ideals and philosophies were spreading like wildfire during the first 400 years of the common era(c). Even if your holy book WAS literally speaking about atoms, it is more than plausible that this idea was given to proto-Islamic cultures hundreds of years before Muhammad ever walked the earth.
Black holes[4]: Contemplation of light and darkness has existed for at least as long as we have had language. To equate these verses with the scientific concept of black holes is just ridiculous.
Not only is the Quran (and the Bible, and the Bhagavad Gita, and The Iliad, etc) unscientific, but any attempts to make it appear scientific fail at the starting line. The most damning feature of the supposedly scientific parts of religious canons is the fact that they do not impart ANY specific, reproducible knowledge that wasn't already available to humanity during the eras in which they were written.
[1] http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_32.html
[2] http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_02.html
[3] http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_36.html
(a) http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/katz/quran/science/atoms.html
(b) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom#Atomism
(c) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_philosophy_and_Christianity
[4] http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_37.html
But personally I think you have taken as a deity your own whims and ego and intellect. And there will be a day when we will know who is right and who is wrong.
I wish you the best and may you be guided.
You may think that, but it isn't true. I claim no deities, and I absolutely do not trust my ego or intellect any further than seems reasonable. I understand that the nature of my existence means that my intuitions and readiness to believe propositions are fundamentally unreliable. When presented with reasonable, logical arguments that are incompatible with my beliefs, I work very hard to do the right thing: I change my beliefs. Thankfully I was lucky enough to come into existence during a period where the tools (logic, reason, scientific methods, skepticism) to overcome these shortcomings are not only available to us, but have been proven over centuries to reliably move us closer to understanding the true nature of existence.
A time when humanity grows up and away from the confines of its superstitious, tribal nature is long overdue. The world in which we now co-exist is simply too dangerous for us to continue to hold these inflexible-by-definition religious beliefs. We can, and therefore should, wake up to these facts:
1. We exist within a world bound by rules
2. We can use logic/reason to reliably learn more about these rules
3. In doing so, we can develop methods of approaching important subjects (morality, law, punishment, etc) that are flexible because they based on logic, reason, and a commitment to truth
4. A truly reasonable approach to understanding will enable us to make real progress toward maximizing the well-being of all conscious life, which when you get down to it is all that we can possibly be worried about.
I hope you and any who read this thread will allow themselves to be open and honest enough to even just glimpse the realm of possibility available to a human species that holds itself, across the board, to a standard of reasonable belief.
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The Quran is not a book a science its a book of signs.
For some there is prove of the Quran divine orgin. For some its is not.
I hope that we just can life in a free world very every group of people can chose there own way of live with out global oppression.
Sorry that I did not reply in more detail to your post. Because I am very tried.
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The Quran is not a book a science its a book of signs.
For some there is prove of the Quran divine orgin. For some its is not.
Then either:
1. It is not proof
2. Those who don't believe do not value proof
I hope that we just can life in a free world very every group of people can chose there own way of live with out global oppression.
This is a VERY different approach to life than your religion dictates. In fact, I would go so far as to say it is directly opposed to many or most of the instructions dictated by your religion. It really is this simple: Either Islam is not the path to truth, or you are an infidel for saying what you just said. (the same applies to other religions)
Sorry that I did not reply in more detail to your post. Because I am very tried.
You don't have to apologize to me. I appreciate that you continue to engage in a respectful dialogue, and that you seem to be patient and kind enough to understand that I have nothing against you personally and only have good intentions toward you and everyone else here. Thank you for being a good person.
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As the Quran is a book of sign for those that believe in a creator.
My approach is not a difference as you might think. It is such that some Islamic preacher are so strongly convinced about the truth of Islam that the for get that you should invite to Islam with wisdom and the best of manners. Al lot are also angry about the globalist intervention in the countries and there oppression and that shapes there worlds in a way. Islam is not out to oppress other or forcefully covert no-believer.
If this would be the case you would not find a single no Muslim in the Muslim world right. But there are large Christian and various of religions communities living in all over the Islamic world. For example in
Islamic Moorish Spain Jews, Christians and Muslim lived side by side peacefully until the Reconqista began and the Christian started forcefully converting everybody to Christianity or simply expelling those that did not want to. And a lot of Jews fled to Morocco and continued to thrive there or went crypto.
Yes there is a part about segregation between the communities like for example Beirut where you have Muslim neighborhoods and Christian neighborhoods. But in some sense that is logical. Would you not like to live amongst like minded people?
And in nation truly ruled by Islamic Law (there are no at the moment
) the communities that are no Muslim are living under Islamic protection and in case of war are not required to help defend to country. And the are allowed to keep there own place's of worship and are allowed to keep there own ideology and rule judge according to there own laws.
And that it means that Muslim consider no Muslim infidels that does not mean we are out to kill or oppress them. Just a matter of opinion.
Also I thank you for you understanding and I also have only the best intentions towards you.
And thank you to for being a good person.
I wish you the best.
PS. Harming or Killing a no-Muslim living under Islamic protection is a very serious crime in Islam.
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The only way to fix and better balance the human belief system is a clean slate, But If more people just based their beliefs solely on facts, and patterns from their own everyday experiences, completely unobjectively with no bias interference, I believe the world would be much less conflicted. Instead, our species is constantly having an information overload of all kinds of "static", irrelevant information that just furthers all the confusion, and differences.
Just stop at "we cannot know everything". You are trying to know everything about what it means to never be able to know everything. You can only ACCEPT that this is the case, and then go find something PRODUCTIVE to think about. Perhaps at a later time you will pick this topic up again, and perhaps you will find yourself full of new insights about it. Right now, though, you are just flipping a bright shiny piece of metal over again and again and again and look it's so shiny and what does that mean *and flip* and look it's so shiny and what does that mean *and flip* and look it's so...stop. This piece of metal is shiny. On all sides. Now what can I DO with this piece of metal?
[...]PS. Harming or Killing a no-Muslim living under Islamic protection is a very serious crime in Islam.
That you even feel the need to say this exposes the problem of Islam, and is seriously frightening. I shouldn't need to be reassured that people of a certain religion won't harm me.
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abitpeckish, I go along with most what you are saying, but I really do not understand what you are getting at with this last post, lol I dont think I have been that repetitive, and I am just sharing the beliefs I have in life mostly, some ideas inspired by the reading to obviously. I am not trying to get at the meaning of some major point or anything, I know what life is to me and how I relate to the universe through my own experiences just like everyone else, thing is everyones experiences are completely unique. Lol just saying we could sit here all day and try and force each others beliefs down each others throats. Lol I wish for the world to "open its eyes" mostly, but I do not feel like putting much more energy into this thread haha especially with jundu's posts lol. I really havnt learned much or been inspired more in any way from returning either.
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Yes if you are in fear or doubt about your personal safety under Islamic law. Should I not clarify to you how it truly is.
I dont think that the Afghan civilians feel save for the American style democracy. Because every day the run the chance of being mistaken for Taliban and getting shot. And I can say the same thing about Iraq's who's whole country was blown to piece why cluster bomb and depleted uranium shells.
There is a verse saying if one kills some one with out good reason its like he killed all of mankind.
And if one save some one it like he killed all of mankind.
And true we cannot know everything. We dont know when or where we will die or how much we will earn tomorrow. We can make a estimation but can we never be really sure.
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Did you really did not learn anything from my post. Well I did my best.
Wish you all the best.
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Yes if you are in fear or doubt about your personal safety under Islamic law. Should I not clarify to you how it truly is.
I dont think that the Afghan civilians feel save for the American style democracy. Because every day the run the chance of being mistaken for Taliban and getting shot. And I can say the same thing about Iraq's who's whole country was blown to piece why cluster bomb and depleted uranium shells.
There is a verse saying if one kills some one with out good reason its like he killed all of mankind.
And if one save some one it like he killed all of mankind.
And true we cannot know everything. We dont know when or where we will die or how much we will earn tomorrow. We can make a estimation but can we never be really sure.
I really do respect your opinion's here. However under UN law, The US or Uk cannot fire upon individuals unless they are fired upon first. even if they are standing there holding an AK47, as long as they are not pointing at you and imminent to shooting you cannot do a thing, So they should have nothing to fear if that's the case.
We can never really be sure about anything true, however a scientific approach usually provides a lot more answers than a religious approach would. think about it, if we had only used religion since lets say for instance 50BC, Then we would be a lot further behind scientifically than we are now. Almost every invention you see around you was created with scientific thinking.
i do think that however everybody has a right to believe in what the wish as long as it makes them happy, as long as they dont take it to the extreme, That's when bad things happen, And this happens with most religions not all. I dont think i have ever heard of a suicide bombing Buddhist monk if you know what i mean. also i really disagree with islamic law and some of their customs, Think about it, the people getting jailed for months and months for kissing in public, when they are on their holidays! You cant walk about with a girl without them being grabbed and pulled in a muslim country, even the one's that are highly tourist orientated such as turkey, It is terrible. They need to advance their laws in that sense or they will be classed as barbaric, How can they still sell people legally lol, I would get 25 years for that here,
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We can never really be sure about anything true, however a scientific approach usually provides a lot more answers than a religious approach would. think about it, if we had only used religion since lets say for instance 50BC, Then we would be a lot further behind scientifically than we are now. Almost every invention you see around you was created with scientific thinking.
Reason (science) is better at orienting us toward truth, because it inherently *values* truth over untruth.
i do think that however everybody has a right to believe in what the wish as long as it makes them happy, as long as they dont take it to the extreme, That's when bad things happen,
If they didn't believe untrue things in the first place, they wouldn't be driven by those beliefs to do extreme things. It's that simple. Yes, people are free to believe whatever the fuck they want. Beliefs are merely ideas, and as such they afford their holders no rights. We are not required to respect beliefs, we are required to accept or reject (or be ignorant of) them. We can do this through reason alone, and we absolutely cannot allow unreasonable beliefs to factor into conversations about subjects that take place in this fundamentally reasonable world we share. Beliefs have consequences. Every decision we make, every action we take is predicated upon what we believe.
And this happens with most religions not all. I dont think i have ever heard of a suicide bombing Buddhist monk if you know what i mean.
Not only are all religious belief systems bogus, some of them are indeed worse than others. It's nice to see that you notice this.
also i really disagree with islamic law and some of their customs, Think about it, the people getting jailed for months and months for kissing in public, when they are on their holidays! You cant walk about with a girl without them being grabbed and pulled in a muslim country, even the one's that are highly tourist orientated such as turkey, It is terrible. They need to advance their laws in that sense or they will be classed as barbaric, How can they still sell people legally lol, I would get 25 years for that here,
Check out the link below, it'll make you sick. I'll continue to beat this drum until it sinks in...beliefs have consequences.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9993453/Teenager-exposes-Indias-one-month-wives-sex-tourism.html
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I feel like every religion is tugging the right cords, but nobody knows what the hell is at the end, ya know? We're all connected obviously we can feel it but we don't know how, and we don't know what the fuck dreams are or how birds know where they're flying....crazy shit I'm on a lot of drugs
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I feel like every religion is tugging the right cords, but nobody knows what the hell is at the end, ya know? We're all connected obviously we can feel it but we don't know how, and we don't know what the fuck dreams are or how birds know where they're flying....crazy shit I'm on a lot of drugs
Here's what religious people completely miss: I 100% agree that they are generally concerned with things that we ought to be concerned with. Including the thing that SEEMS supernatural to us: transcendent experience. If there is going to be a way for all of us to reconnect with our nature, if we are to come together as a species to transcend our fate, if we are ever going to find truly useful answers to the question of why, these things can only be truly achieved through reason.
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We can never really be sure about anything true, however a scientific approach usually provides a lot more answers than a religious approach would. think about it, if we had only used religion since lets say for instance 50BC, Then we would be a lot further behind scientifically than we are now. Almost every invention you see around you was created with scientific thinking.
Reason (science) is better at orienting us toward truth, because it inherently *values* truth over untruth.
i do think that however everybody has a right to believe in what the wish as long as it makes them happy, as long as they dont take it to the extreme, That's when bad things happen,
If they didn't believe untrue things in the first place, they wouldn't be driven by those beliefs to do extreme things. It's that simple. Yes, people are free to believe whatever the fuck they want. Beliefs are merely ideas, and as such they afford their holders no rights. We are not required to respect beliefs, we are required to accept or reject (or be ignorant of) them. We can do this through reason alone, and we absolutely cannot allow unreasonable beliefs to factor into conversations about subjects that take place in this fundamentally reasonable world we share. Beliefs have consequences. Every decision we make, every action we take is predicated upon what we believe.
And this happens with most religions not all. I dont think i have ever heard of a suicide bombing Buddhist monk if you know what i mean.
Not only are all religious belief systems bogus, some of them are indeed worse than others. It's nice to see that you notice this.
also i really disagree with islamic law and some of their customs, Think about it, the people getting jailed for months and months for kissing in public, when they are on their holidays! You cant walk about with a girl without them being grabbed and pulled in a muslim country, even the one's that are highly tourist orientated such as turkey, It is terrible. They need to advance their laws in that sense or they will be classed as barbaric, How can they still sell people legally lol, I would get 25 years for that here,
Check out the link below, it'll make you sick. I'll continue to beat this drum until it sinks in...beliefs have consequences.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9993453/Teenager-exposes-Indias-one-month-wives-sex-tourism.html
There is a lot more worse things happening because of religion but yeah it's bad. the majority is because of islam im sorry to say it but is is.
I have yet to meeta muslim who disagrees with islamic law. Which is shocking because it basically says they agree with it all.
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HeatFireFlame
Please would you care do bring some examples. About the majority of those bad thing Islam has caused. Please number them so that I can post a rebuttal on each.
PS if you would go purely on death toll than the worst ideology was communist that killed well over 80 million people.
And in general you must make a clear separation between Islamic Law and the custom and culture of Muslims. Because some of those customs are not based on Islamic Law but on culture heritage and are in some cause if not all go against the Islamic Law.
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HeatFireFlame
Please would you care do bring some examples. About the majority of those bad thing Islam has caused. Please number them so that I can post a rebuttal on each.
PS if you would go purely on death toll than the worst ideology was communist that killed well over 80 million people.
And in general you must make a clear separation between Islamic Law and the custom and culture of Muslims. Because some of those customs are not based on Islamic Law but on culture heritage and are in some cause if not all go against the Islamic Law.
You're asking the wrong questions. It's not about whether or not you can "post a rebuttal on each" example of Muslim immorality, it's about whether or not your belief system can be construed to justify it. It can. That's just the truth.
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Please if its is not to much trouble for you bring some examples?
Somebody mentioned the practice of bride kidnapping. This is a cultural phenomenon and has no base in Islamic Law. Because I woman cannot be forced to marry and the practice of arranged marriage is again a base on culture.
And jailing couple for kissing in public. Its is consider immoral but there is no base in Islamic Law that would warrant a jail time.
Since Muslim believe that the Islamic Law which is based on the Quran is a revelation of God who is the most Just. So the Laws are just.
And good an evil, moral and immoral it all depends on point of view.
I consider pornography and prostitution immoral. Some consider its is freedom.
I consider the practice of interest immoral an evil some consider a good way to making money.
Some Islamic Law that you might consider immoral are there to prevent a greater evil.
Different ideologies have different morals and values. And in the end to point on with you send depends on the place where you sit.
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Earlier today it occurred to me that if heaven or hell from any religion actually do exist, they wouldn't be floating around in the sky or burning forever in the earth's crust. They would have to exist in an alternate dimension or on a different level of reality. In my opinion it's just as likely that the ancient Greek gods exist or that Odin and Thor are drinking mead in Asgard right now as it is that any of the major religions have it right. Greek and Norse mythology are both much more awesome than the current major world religions, so if I ever feel the need to become religious I'm probably going to go with one of those. If nothing else, Bacchanalia, feasts, and drunken orgies beat the hell out of Christmas and Hanukkah, and bad ass drinking fighting viking gods are a lot better than an all knowing god that made Satan, created humans with free will, then throws everybody who doesn't meet impossibly high expectations into a burning pit for eternity. At least the Greek and Norse gods are pretty up front about being dicks half the time. The judeo christian god is a giant asshole, but everybody seems to pretend that he's all rainbows and sunshine. I just don't get it, it's like they pretend the old testament doesn't exist. I mean damn, what kind of asshole would give us strong sex drives, make some people gay, then declare sex outside of marriage and homosexuality to be offenses that deserve eternal damnation? Fuck that shit, I'll take Greek assholes or drunk vikings any day. At least then when there's a natural disaster it wouldn't just be "god's plan," it would be "Oh shit, Zeus is being a dick again. We better have some feasts in his honor and then get drunk and fuck a bunch of virgins so he'll quit that shit!"
As much as I hate Westboro Baptist, they're actually the most honest Christians I know of as far as going by what the Bible actually says. Real Christians should be stoning people to death for all sorts of shit, at least the extremist Muslims are serious about their beliefs and act on them. How many half assed pretend "Christians" do you know?
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[...] Different ideologies have different morals and values. And in the end to point on with you send depends on the place where you sit.
This reveals an unreasonable core belief: that morality is relative, which means it's subjective, and therefore all morals are equivalent. This is generally referred to as "normative moral relativism". A reasonable argument can be made, however, for the objective nature of morality, as it is based upon an innate human (at least human) value of *truth* over untruth. Some moral questions can be understood in a context of "relative to alternatives x/y/z", but it does not follow that all answers are equally valid. I went into a little more detail on this idea in the following post:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=160732.msg1141486#msg1141486
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Please if its is not to much trouble for you bring some examples?
Somebody mentioned the practice of bride kidnapping. This is a cultural phenomenon and has no base in Islamic Law. Because I woman cannot be forced to marry and the practice of arranged marriage is again a base on culture.
And jailing couple for kissing in public. Its is consider immoral but there is no base in Islamic Law that would warrant a jail time.
Since Muslim believe that the Islamic Law which is based on the Quran is a revelation of God who is the most Just. So the Laws are just.
And good an evil, moral and immoral it all depends on point of view.
I consider pornography and prostitution immoral. Some consider its is freedom.
I consider the practice of interest immoral an evil some consider a good way to making money.
Some Islamic Law that you might consider immoral are there to prevent a greater evil.
Different ideologies have different morals and values. And in the end to point on with you send depends on the place where you sit.
Examples of what sorry, i must not have read it correctly?
"Since Muslim believe that the Islamic Law which is based on the Quran is a revelation of God who is the most Just. So the Laws are just. " yes so islamic laws are based on religion, Which is not exactly fair, I doubt you would get a fair trial in a courtroom where law is dictated by religion.
Considering something immoral is not illegal though and everybody is allowed their opinion in that sense.
"I consider the practice of interest immoral an evil some consider a good way to making money." You consider interest immoral and evil? I do not follow at all, can you elaborate?
how can interest be immoral or evil, without interest, religion or not we would be nowhere.
"And jailing couple for kissing in public. Its is consider immoral but there is no base in Islamic Law that would warrant a jail time. "
Im afraid there are instances of people. Going on holiday to enoy themselves, Obeying all cultural laws and trying not to cause trouble or impose their own beliefs on a culture different from their own, Yet they kiss in a restaurant on a date, and they are taken to jail for months at a time. It was islamic law that sentenced them.
"Some Islamic Law that you might consider immoral are there to prevent a greater evil. " Which laws? All laws are there to prevent a greater evil, Religious or not.
Do you not admit that islamic law would be much better off without the prejudice against woman, to start?
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Why would Law based on religion not be fair. If the people that enforce the laws are unfair then it those not matter with laws are unforced.
If the law in it self are just we can debate the finer details of those laws later.
In theory it should go like this. For example to become a US citizen one some one is a US citizen he would be required to obey the law of the US right? The same goes for some one how is Muslim. Ones some one is Muslim is required to fallow the law if not face the consequence if his actions. Just like in any other legal system.
And why should a trail dictated by religion not be fair. Trails dictated by to so called free nations are often unfair. Like for example where black citizen often receive higher sentence then whites.
Might I point out that the practice of interest is a cause for the current economical rescission and is keep all lot of people in permanent financial slavery. Also a lot of the third world country are in the economical situation there are in because if interest. Interest is a way for the rich to profit form the poor. Islamic country have done very well with out interest for centuries. So that argument is not valid.
Well about those people going on holiday and obeying all the culture laws. Well if the kissed in public then I quess they did no obey all the culture laws. Second is this something really necessary to kiss in public could they not wait till they were in the hotel room before making out.
But anyway I like I told you no base in Islamic law to sentence people for kissing in public. Must be a have been a culture thing. They should have been let go with a warning.
In Islam adultery is consider a great evil and immoral. Because if children are born out of wedlock then the laws of inheritance would be messed up. And if adultery would lead to divorce this would cause great harm to the family. I know somebody who's mother left the husband for an other man she met at world and my friend was traumatized for years because of this
And is why women are men are kept apart and women are required to cover them self. Because women have an natural power of attraction of men. Like flower and bees.
That alcohol and gambling is forbidden well. Those two thing can lead to great evil. Debt depression and violence and drunk driving with sometimes would result in death of innocent people.
Prejudice about women is again misunderstood or a difference of opinion.
Women are respected in Islam but not in the same way as the western world respects women.
Men and women are different psychologically and physiologically and there for have different roles in society.
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Why would Law based on religion not be fair. If the people that enforce the laws are unfair then it those not matter with laws are unforced.
If the law in it self are just we can debate the finer details of those laws later.
In theory it should go like this. For example to become a US citizen one some one is a US citizen he would be required to obey the law of the US right? The same goes for some one how is Muslim. Ones some one is Muslim is required to fallow the law if not face the consequence if his actions. Just like in any other legal system.
And why should a trail dictated by religion not be fair. Trails dictated by to so called free nations are often unfair. Like for example where black citizen often receive higher sentence then whites.
Might I point out that the practice of interest is a cause for the current economical rescission and is keep all lot of people in permanent financial slavery. Also a lot of the third world country are in the economical situation there are in because if interest. Interest is a way for the rich to profit form the poor. Islamic country have done very well with out interest for centuries. So that argument is not valid.
Well about those people going on holiday and obeying all the culture laws. Well if the kissed in public then I quess they did no obey all the culture laws. Second is this something really necessary to kiss in public could they not wait till they were in the hotel room before making out.
But anyway I like I told you no base in Islamic law to sentence people for kissing in public. Must be a have been a culture thing. They should have been let go with a warning.
In Islam adultery is consider a great evil and immoral. Because if children are born out of wedlock then the laws of inheritance would be messed up. And if adultery would lead to divorce this would cause great harm to the family. I know somebody who's mother left the husband for an other man she met at world and my friend was traumatized for years because of this
And is why women are men are kept apart and women are required to cover them self. Because women have an natural power of attraction of men. Like flower and bees.
That alcohol and gambling is forbidden well. Those two thing can lead to great evil. Debt depression and violence and drunk driving with sometimes would result in death of innocent people.
Prejudice about women is again misunderstood or a difference of opinion.
Women are respected in Islam but not in the same way as the western world respects women.
Men and women are different psychologically and physiologically and there for have different roles in society.
"And why should a trail dictated by religion not be fair. Trails dictated by to so called free nations are often unfair. Like for example where black citizen often receive higher sentence then whites. " this is racist and should not happen either, I fail to see how one racist judge or something along the lines is the same as a judicial system that is blatantly prejudice.
"Well about those people going on holiday and obeying all the culture laws. Well if the kissed in public then I quess they did no obey all the culture laws. Second is this something really necessary to kiss in public could they not wait till they were in the hotel room before making out. " Well i hardly think that this is a just law, they were harldy all over each other, and even if they were, It should not be a crime, I bet you would get sentenced and beaten for speaking bad about the king in jordan actually i know you would as i have a friend from palestine. So free speech is imposed on as well. Do you think that this is just?
"I know somebody who's mother left the husband for an other man she met at world and my friend was traumatized for years because of this" That is a fact of life, people shouldn't get married if they dont intend on spending the rest of their life together, however this happens all over the world and is not a reason to validity your argument.
"And is why women are men are kept apart and women are required to cover them self. Because women have an natural power of attraction of men. Like flower and bees. "
Bullshit, Men are attracted to women and women attracted to men, Simple biology, nothing to so with flower and bees. The worst part of that statement is that you make it out as if women cant control themselves but men can? HAHA this is outrageous. the law was made up by some idiot whose wife cheated on him probably and he took it out on everybody ever since.
"Women are respected in Islam but not in the same way as the western world respects women.
Men and women are different psychologically and physiologically and there for have different roles in society"
You are clearly biased against them, And think of them as second class citizens. Face it islamic law is a farce, Based on one sided ancient laws.
If we were to stick to ancient christian laws it would be shocking. that's why we changed them as the centuries went by, Unlike islamic law that hides behind "tradition" as an excuse to keep outdated laws in, Look it up. Chopping peoples hands of for theft is one haha.
"That alcohol and gambling is forbidden well. Those two thing can lead to great evil. Debt depression and violence and drunk driving with sometimes would result in death of innocent people. " As i said defending your beliefs even though i dont believe them, Everybody has their rights to do what they wish as long as it does no harm to society, science or others. So gambling and drinking fine, Allow them, as long as they stay within limits, and dont commit crimes because of it then so what?
Another form of dictating what people do, That is not right and there is a lot of it in islamic law.
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First you must understand that there not a single country in the Islamic words that is ruled by the Sharia (Islamic Law). All of the governments are oppressive and dictatorial puppets of the NWO. And I do not support any of them nor do I justify there action.
The Islamic Law does not hide behind tradition. Some people hide there tradition behind Islamic Law but that is different. Its comparable to Bush hiding behind the call for bringing democracy to Iraq but in fact only wanting the oil. You cannot blame a something if people chose to justify there unjust action with it.
And you might consider those laws outdated. But human nature has not changed over thousands of years. So these law will be relevant till the end of days. So does the emotional effect of not crime. not change with time. If a camel got stole the victim would feel the same as the victim of a car theft.
And about chopping of hand. That is an other subject yet the law does work and not every one that steals something gets there hand chopped off. There are curtain conditions that apply. If you for example steal because you are hunger you get to keep your hand. But if somebody steals more then he needs just pure for the sake of enriching him self on the expense of somebody else then he would so his hand. And he would be a example for there rest.
Imagine if also those rich banker who with out due right toke the wealth of other would get there hand chopped of would send a power message to the rest of them.
And like I said before there is nothing in Islamic Law that justifies the locking up of that couple. And I looked it up.
Well women are respect in Islam although you might not agree.
It is not that women cannot control them self you misunderstood me its that sometimes men cannot control them self. And women have an natural power of men. Again this is to prevent adultery. And this again is a difference of morals and values.
Yes Islamic Laws are ancient but by no means outdated. There are enough people that want to be ruled by Islamic Law. But the puppet regime's of the Islamic world will not even all Islamic parties to participate in democratic elections. There a word for that oppression.
And yes Islam dictates to people how to live and how to behave. But so does any other system of government in some way or on other. Then at some point there will always be people who will oppressed. All though I believe is Islamic Law is the best would be the best law even in an such a society there will be people that are discontent for what ever reason.
In every society there will be people that are discontent because its just impossible to please everybody.
I am perfectly contented with what Islam dictates to me, be honest, don't lie, don't scam people, always strife to do you best, pray, fast, do the hadj. And worship only the one worthy of worship.
In the end if people want Islamic Law the must have the freedom to be ruled by it. Even if you or other do not agree. That would be a free world with out global oppression where every country and people can decided there own fate and chose there own way of life.
I will close my arguments with an verse from the Quran
Chapter 67 verse 29
Say: "He is the Most Beneficent (Allah), in Him we believe, and in Him we put our trust. So you will come to know who is it that is in manifest error."
I wish you the best. And I have enjoyed or nice and civil debate very much.
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I'm not religious by any means but sometimes it just strikes me odd that muslims have such a high respect for their religion. Let me ask you this then... When was the last time you seen a Christian suicide bomber? Oh wait what's that? You haven't ... ok then.
Let me leave you with this.. the Boston Marathon Bombers where what religious background? Yep.
I know it's wrong to base the actions of a few to judge the many but I'm looking at the big picture at all the events that have happened in the past 15 years. 4 years a Muslim rebel group walked into a church in Iraq and murdered everyone in their in cold blood. Look it up if you think I'm full of shit. The Christian religion is not pure and 100% untainted but at least that's not part of the Christian religion.
You know we set here in our nice little homes and we're safe and secure and we can talk about how great a certain religion is and how beautiful it is. Do this and you'll see how Islam really is. If your white or a westerner move to Iran and practice your own religion. Watch how fast you will be perscuted and pressured to become Islam. It's not a choice there. It's your with us or againest.
And btw if your such a good Muslim what you doing on a drug forum website. That's againest the Quran. Drugs, drinking,smoking...etc..
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Women are respected in Islam but not in the same way as the western world respects women.
Yet again, you're demonstrating how fundamentally unreasonable your belief system is. Any "way" to respect women that doesn't treat them as being generally equal to men with regard to (at least) intelligence, freedom, and opportunity is no way of respecting women at all. You're not going to be able to string any amount of words together to prove otherwise.
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Women are respected in Islam but not in the same way as the western world respects women.
Yet again, you're demonstrating how fundamentally unreasonable your belief system is. Any "way" to respect women that doesn't treat them as being generally equal to men with regard to (at least) intelligence, freedom, and opportunity is no way of respecting women at all. You're not going to be able to string any amount of words together to prove otherwise.
Yet the most new revert to Islam are women. Every wonder why?
And if you are really so sure about your opinion.
You what go read the book Woman in Islam by Muhammad Zafrulla Khan. Then see the whole issue form the Islamic perspective. And its 39 pages so its an easy read.
If you rather stick to what the cooperate media and the orientalist has spoon fed you. Then keep your narrow opinion. Fine by me.
Miah:
I will get back to you in my next post.
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Omg you guys are crazy. lol go fly a kite or something =) And for that one dudes post kant remember his name, You can learn a FUCKTON more about dreams and their meanings, and being able to understand the dreaming process more by exploring your dreams. Best way to explore the "dreamscape" is lucid dreaming, you can look up techniques to help you with this, but the best way to start getting intouch with your subconscious dream mind and stuff is by writing every single dream you can remember from the night before as soon as you wake up. Usually you will forget any dreams you can remember within 10 minutes of waking up because your brain automatically starts thinking about things you need to do that day. And for how birds know where they are flying (I assume like migrations and such) They simply use the temperature and length of the days to know what time to do it, and as for direction they actually use the Earth's electromagnetic field as a sort of built in GPS if you could imagine it. Once upon a time human beings were perfectly in tune with these Earthly forces, lol and the "other realm" where hell and heaven would be in is not in the physical dimension, but the metaphysical. That would pretty much be the same "plane" as you can reach when you successfuly astrally project, (my guess). That is why Shamans could allegedly travel to these "spirit worlds". Lol but nowadays most people marvle at some "mysteries" that if we were'nt so cut off from our Mother Nature, we wouldnt need to ask the question in the first place. This is my soul point of most posts in this thread lol. I may state it again, its interesting to see what people have to say in this thread though. I am just not going to argue with anyone =)
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Ok it's fine dude, I'm not trying to attack you or anything. I'm just so sick and tired of hearing about religion and which religion is right. But mostly of all I'm disgusted looking at the aftermath of these wars which basically comes down to religion or power and sometimes both.
I believe everyone has a basic human right to believe in what they want to believe. However once your belief starts to hurt others or you start to impose your own beliefs on others than it becomes a problem that no one should stand for.
Does the American government practise the same hypocrisy they so vehemently oppose? Fuck yeah all the time. Look at the war in Iraq for example. That area is worse off since they brought their so called 'Democracy'. Yeah? Why not go to Syria and do something while all those innocent people are dying because of one guy that needs to go. That place looks like a atomic bomb hit it. Why don't they take him out like they did Saddam Hussein? I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
I have no problems with muslims, buddhists, christians, baptists... w/e it really doesn't mean that much to me. What matters is the actions and decisions you make so I judge people by that. I'm completely aware of how naive and simplistic my view may be at times but I think it's better than condemning a whole race based on their religion.
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shoooot
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I'm not religious by any means but sometimes it just strikes me odd that muslims have such a high respect for their religion. Let me ask you this then... When was the last time you seen a Christian suicide bomber? Oh wait what's that? You haven't ... ok then.
Let me leave you with this.. the Boston Marathon Bombers where what religious background? Yep.
I know it's wrong to base the actions of a few to judge the many but I'm looking at the big picture at all the events that have happened in the past 15 years. 4 years a Muslim rebel group walked into a church in Iraq and murdered everyone in their in cold blood. Look it up if you think I'm full of shit. The Christian religion is not pure and 100% untainted but at least that's not part of the Christian religion.
You know we set here in our nice little homes and we're safe and secure and we can talk about how great a certain religion is and how beautiful it is. Do this and you'll see how Islam really is. If your white or a westerner move to Iran and practice your own religion. Watch how fast you will be perscuted and pressured to become Islam. It's not a choice there. It's your with us or againest.
And btw if your such a good Muslim what you doing on a drug forum website. That's againest the Quran. Drugs, drinking,smoking...etc..
Well you not religion do believe in Creator God?
First the are allot of unanswered questions concerning the Boston Marathon Bombers. You can see it as an eye for an eyes tooth for a tooth. For all Iraq's Afghans that died and are still dying in America's crusade the bring ''democracy''. I do not support it because I believe that the American ''democracy'' is not as democratic as we are all made out to believe.
About the 4 Muslims that walked in to a church and shoot up the place. First its have to be proved that those were Muslims. Because it is know that an organization know as blackwater has conducted attack dressed as Muslims. Second if they were Muslims then they were violating Muslims Islamic Law and the teaching of the Prophet Muhammed how explicitly has forbidden attacks an places of worship. So that why I personally doubt that they where in deed Muslims. They might have been Shia Muslims. And there is a big difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims.
Iranians are Shia and there are is a big difference between Shia and Sunni's. First they deny the authenticity of the Quran and most if not all teaching of the Prophet Muhammed. So Iran is a whole different story and is beyond the scope of this reply.
According to Sunni's Islam there is now compulsion in religion. And that is why there a Christian communities living in Syria, Lebanon.
Terrorism has existed long before 15 years ago. Ever heard of the IRA, RAF and some hindu's sect.
So in fact the terror attacks carried out be the Muslim is only a small percent. And I would say that the biggest terrorist at this moment with the police if you dont do what we say we bomb you is with out a doubt the USA.
Well and violence not being part of Christianity. You must have been skipping you history class. Because have you ever heard about the Crusades the holy war the liberated the holy land form the infidels. Well that was very bloody ordeal. And when to Jerusalem was conquered the Christian killed every one if other Christian and blood ran knee deep trough its streets. So dont tell me that the Christian are an also peacefull people. There is more blood on Christian has then there ever will be on Muslim hands.
And when the USA government and Israel with its globalist allies stop intervening in the other people countries then the I am sure the attack will stop. Like I said I do not support them but I understand why they do it. So feel attacked.
Its has said in the Quran. If they fight you fight them is they incline to peace you incline to peace.
Like for example the Palestinian the land has been stolen and that what remains in also being slowly and illegally taking away form them by illegal jewish settlers in the best bank. And the Gaza strip is regularly being bombed with also civilian shelter and mosques being specifically targeted by there air force. But you never heard about that or do you. If you house has been bombed you family killed. Well that would motivated some to get even. And martyrdom in Islam is of the greatest honors a Muslim can achieve.
And about me being here. I am doing personal research on the effect of curtain drugs and how much the cloud the judgment. I do not claim that a very good Muslim I pray, I fast and worship none but the one deserving of worship. When there are misconception about Islam I have to try and straiten them out. And I believe a lot of people here who want to see the NWO go done and so do I.
Please forgive more the tone of this post. Its 7 in the morning in Europe and I haven't sleep the night.
If you want to know more please be free to ask.
I wish you the best MAIH
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I just wanted to add that 95% of all of the religious people I know, are manipulated since birth. Generation after generation just follow what their parents teach them. The sole reason the believe in the bible so intensely, is because they were manipulated throughout their entire childhood. If somebody told you there was a man living on a cloud & showed you random printed bullshit on a piece of paper since you were the age of 2, you would obviously believe it entirely.
I feel bad for the people I know who were tricked as children to believe such silly things.
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I just wanted to add that 95% of all of the religious people I know, are manipulated since birth. Generation after generation just follow what their parents teach them. The sole reason the believe in the bible so intensely, is because they were manipulated throughout their entire childhood. If somebody told you there was a man living on a cloud & showed you random printed bullshit on a piece of paper since you were the age of 2, you would obviously believe it entirely.
I feel bad for the people I know who were tricked as children to believe such silly things.
I revert to Islam 5 years ago. After a long guest for the truth out of free will, rational though and begging God to save me from the Eternal Fires of Hell.
In the end for my Islam makes the most sense.
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Most of the "terrorist" attacks in America are not even caused by radical Muslims. It is false flag propaganda people! The US Government wants to scare the shit out of its sheepish citizens, so they in turn run back to big daddy government to save them and keep them safe. And if what you say about Blackwater is true that is extremely fucking interesting because there were a lot of men dressed up in Blackwater traditional casual unifornm standing around the Boston Marathon, They all had backpacks and ear peices. Hmmmmm, wonder why... One of the most scariest Organizations in the world I would not fuck with is the US Government, They are some cold mother fuckers for real. I would love to immigrate from this currupted country, I will have to learn how and research a place that is not so highly effected by chemtrailing and crazy international political affairs. Lol any ideas??
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Well when Syria is free I think you will be more then welcome there.
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You what go read the book Woman in Islam by Muhammad Zafrulla Khan. Then see the whole issue form the Islamic perspective. And its 39 pages so its an easy read.
If you rather stick to what the cooperate media and the orientalist has spoon fed you. Then keep your narrow opinion. Fine by me.
Alright, let's see how far I can get before this post gets too long... [1]
Woman is vulnerable and is in need of man’s strength for support and protection. A woman may be forced against her will; a man cannot be forced against his inclination.
What? Men cannot be forced to act against their will? Bullshit.
When a child is rebuked or disciplined by the mother, it feels no resentment towards her; while it resents being punished by the father.
This is at best a dubious claim.
As wife and mother the primary and normal sphere of woman’s activities is the home; as breadwinner the normal sphere of man’s activities and operations is the outdoors.
Nope, that's not a necessary rule at all. Families should be free to do whatever works for them, as long as it is ethical and oriented towards the well-being of the child(ren).
The ultimate purpose of marriage in Islam is to win the pleasure of Allah, through chastity, fulfilment, contentment and continuation of the species. [...] Unfortunately, the West no longer considers chastity a virtue, indeed it has become a reproach. Experimental living together and promiscuity have become the norm. Perversion and sensuality, inside and outside wedlock, are deemed the true purpose and object of sex.
Seriously? Red flag. What possible reason could an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, all-creating deity have for caring about the specifics of my sexual tendencies? No reason I can be comfortable with.
n the Islamic system, marriage is a covenant of a civil nature involving a whole set of mutual obligations. For its validity it requires the public announcement of the free consent of the parties, the consent of the guardian of the bride, whose duty it is to ensure and safeguard the rights of the bride, and a settlement by the husband on the wife proportionate to his means which is called dower, and is not to be confused with the dowry that may be bestowed upon the bride by her parents or guardian.
I have a question. Why doesn't the husband need a guardian, too?
Husbands and wives have reciprocal obligations towards each other, but as man is the breadwinner and has the responsibility of providing for wife and family, in case of a difference in the matter of running the household he has the final word, lest things should get out of hand and the family should be faced with ruin
We begin the descent into the immoral depths of men drunk with power. Woman is not submissive to man. Woman IS man. Woman is a KIND of man. Just as males are a KIND of man. That your belief system consistently fails to recognize this is infuriating.
If the wife is persistently recalcitrant so that the peace and harmony of the household are put in peril, the husband should admonish himself. Should that prove unavailing, he may temporarily withdraw from the marital bed. In the last resort he may have recourse to light chastisement.
Okay, this one made me angry. This is code for "it's cool to hit your wife if she's REALLY EXTRA SUPER pissing you off". Spoiler: it isn't cool.
Islam may have been all the rage for feminists in the year 610, but here in 2013 this shit is just misogyny masquerading as "Islamic wisdom".
[1] www.alislam.org/library/WOMANINISLAM.pdf
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Well Jund I know a lot more about History than you may think. I'm aware of the ongoing conflict between Palestine and Israel which has been going on before you or me where on this earth. I'm also aware of the on-going conflict between Shites and Sunnies and the distinct differences between them. I'm aware of the Crusades and the results of that but then again I also stated in my reply that Christanity is not 100% untainted did I not?
Ok I'll roll with your theory. Eye for an eye right? Check it out how about since those Muslims in Iraq shot up those innocent people in the church a group organizes and goes into a mosque and open fires? How does that sound to you? Eye for an eye right? They were in fact Muslims it was no conspiracy by the US Government lol... they could give two shits about Christians in Iraq. All they care about is the oil from the land to drive their precious SUV's to the office.
Your reply to my post is a clear example of why ongoing conflict and tension will never cease in this world. I've read the Quran. I'm not Muslim. Please don't try to teach. I prolly know it better than you.
Here's the link to what I was talking about:
CLEARNET WARNING: http://www.christianpost.com/news/death-toll-from-iraqi-church-siege-shoots-up-to-52-47441/
But I know what you'll say. You'll say well it's Al Qaeda they're an extremist group. Fair enough but their underlying beliefs and principles are based on the Quran and Islam. If Islam is so great answer me this question. Lebanon is just as dangerous as any other city in the middle east. Don't believe all the hype that everyone their is accepting. For the most part it is but you take a wrong turn somewhere you could be in for a bad bad night.
Oh yeah have fun in Syria. Just make sure you look over your back to make sure no one tries to eat your heart..lol ..and have fun living in a third world country.
P.S. This is a rather entertaining way to get my post count up =)
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Lol no thank you sir. Especially while the United States is covertly supplying the rebels with guns and money to throw russia off balance. I believe the mass amount of heroin being pumped into russia is also a direct result of narco-terrorism. Although I have not seen any articles or anything shedding much more light on the heroin problem I can give you a good guess of who's fucking behind it... Basically if US wants to hold its shit together they are really gonna have to worry about Russia and China. To bad the mother fuckers got Chavez, he was pretty strong too. Lol they could get me for treason for saying this shit! =O
P.S. just cause I saw abitpeckish's post, made me think about one time I saw a guy get hypnotized in to doing what he completely and 100% thought was assassinating a man for no other reason than the hypnotist hypnotized him too! Fucking crazy that shit can happen, scary kind of. Of course they did a vigorous testing process on different people to get the most susceptible to hypnotism, and the gun was setup fake and shit. It was crazy though cause the dude didnt even fucking know anything about what he just did after it happened. He just followed the hypnotists orders exactly. SKEEEETCHHH
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Omg you guys are crazy. lol go fly a kite or something =) And for that one dudes post kant remember his name, You can learn a FUCKTON more about dreams and their meanings, and being able to understand the dreaming process more by exploring your dreams. Best way to explore the "dreamscape" is lucid dreaming, you can look up techniques to help you with this, but the best way to start getting intouch with your subconscious dream mind and stuff is by writing every single dream you can remember from the night before as soon as you wake up. Usually you will forget any dreams you can remember within 10 minutes of waking up because your brain automatically starts thinking about things you need to do that day. And for how birds know where they are flying (I assume like migrations and such) They simply use the temperature and length of the days to know what time to do it, and as for direction they actually use the Earth's electromagnetic field as a sort of built in GPS if you could imagine it. Once upon a time human beings were perfectly in tune with these Earthly forces, lol and the "other realm" where hell and heaven would be in is not in the physical dimension, but the metaphysical. That would pretty much be the same "plane" as you can reach when you successfuly astrally project, (my guess). That is why Shamans could allegedly travel to these "spirit worlds". Lol but nowadays most people marvle at some "mysteries" that if we were'nt so cut off from our Mother Nature, we wouldnt need to ask the question in the first place. This is my soul point of most posts in this thread lol. I may state it again, its interesting to see what people have to say in this thread though. I am just not going to argue with anyone =)
Dude, seriously. You're just regurgitating mutations of shit you've heard or read, and/or making it up as you go along. There is no such thing as the supernatural, which is clearly what you mean by "metaphysical" and "spirit worlds".
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[...] *Links to The Christian Post to argue against Islam* [...]
I don't know whether to laugh or cringe.
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lol I know how cliche..gimme a break it's the first one I found on Google.
Here you go:
CLEARNET WARNING: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Non-Muslims#Iraq
That wiki supports every argument I made. Oh right I forgot it's all a conspiracy so what had happened is someone put all those fake news links, articles, and stats.
Not_A_Sheep you need to stop watching V for Vendetta cause shit in movies isn't always true in the real world. I greatly doubt the US goverment framed the Boston Marathon bombers. There's no motive and there's so much evidence and proof againest the two individuals(well one now) that it's damn near undeniable and never mind the fact he admitted it! Ok let's say he was framed.. how do you explain a shoot out with the police? Did you see the weapons they had? That was serious firepower and they knew what they fuck they were doing in regards to using their firearms and the explosives.
The first clue that the FBI had was the MO of the bomb. Every bomb that's made has a signature if you will. They can tell by the way it's made what group it's from. That's not a type of bomb that is usually found in the Western world. It's a crude bomb that's relatively easy to make if you know what you're doing and it gives the attacker the most bang for their buck. No you should research the facts a bit and then come back or go watch some more V for Vendetta.
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abitpeckish you are fucking pissing me off, most things I am sayins is shit I have experienced with my own fucking five senses, I dont understand why you insist on bashing my shit? Saying I have no clue what Im talking about and shit. What make you and your thick ass skull so fucking right huh? How come you seem to have all the answers, and everything I truely BELIEVE IN is wrong? You are no different than a religious nut, just trying to preach shit to everyone. Seriously man, are you bipolar too? cause you seem to half understand things I am saying but then saying oh you dont have this completely right, or your almost right but the rest of your logic is just a empty shell about to collapse? But pretty much everything I have said was learned through experience, and obviously some reading and research. But mostly everything I am delving into and thinking about I try to put experience with. Lol you are making me want to leave this thread for good...
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[...] Different ideologies have different morals and values. And in the end to point on with you send depends on the place where you sit.
This reveals an unreasonable core belief: that morality is relative, which means it's subjective, and therefore all morals are equivalent. This is generally referred to as "normative moral relativism". A reasonable argument can be made, however, for the objective nature of morality, as it is based upon an innate human (at least human) value of *truth* over untruth. Some moral questions can be understood in a context of "relative to alternatives x/y/z", but it does not follow that all answers are equally valid. I went into a little more detail on this idea in the following post:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=160732.msg1141486#msg1141486
I'm amazed that you and I disagree on something, but it seems we do. Perhaps it's arrogance, perhaps not, but I consider you a man of extreme intelligence who seems to have come to conclusions that are almost identical to my own -- and to me this is one of the most basic conclusions one can come to, hence my surprise. Morality is very much a malleable, subjective, "made up" thing. Yes, I do mean all morality, and no, I am not psychotic or a sociopath; I just don't consider it "wrong" to do a thing that makes me feel bad. Hurting people still makes me feel bad, but I do not think it's intrinsically "wrong," nor do I think it's some kind of objective quality that's attached to an action. I don't do it and I don't want to do it, but frankly that's just because it would make me feel bad. How is that not by its very nature subjective?
Hitler was moral by his own standards, and I don't see anything anywhere that objectively proves my morals are better than his. Mine just say let everyone choose their own life, insofar as it doesn't inhibit another's right to choose the same. His told him differently. But his were just as "good" as mine -- in outcome obviously they're radically different, but putting that aside I mean: what exactly makes his somehow less true or good than my own other than human biology (which again seems to me by its very nature to be subjective)?
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That's a good point Self. That's something that I've wondered myself for the longest time and the only conclusion I came up with is it's not whether the moral is good or bad because as you said it is very subjective. It's what action or events come because of you having that moral and how it affects the people around you.
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http://www.e-reading-lib.org/bookreader.php/148582/The_Demon-Haunted_World_:_Science_as_a_candle_in_the_dark.pdf
There you go. Free book by Carl Sagan himself. Good shit.
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Dear Miah. First in what language did you read the Quran and if you read in English what translation did you read it. And if you read it in Arabic then I wonder why aren't you Muslim.
And I highly doubt you know the Quran better then me. I a part of it every day. Read it atleast 23 times in Arabic. And I speak read and write Arabic.
PS and I am not an Arab.
PS2 please forgive me for my false assumptions.
PS3 You cannot blame the religion for if the people chose not to fallow its teachings.
abitpeckish thank you for taking the time to read that little book if will get back on your post in detail later.
Wish you all the best
And true success after death
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wohahhh.
I was away for an hour or so and shit hit the fan around here.
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Why did we say the younger brother did it, then say he didnt, then say he did, then deport him!!!! And in light of the shootout, they say there was a shootout, yet there are news reports that say straightup there was no gun found in the boat! So it was a damn 1 sided shootout! And the U.S. would have a lot to gain in regards of certain carbon taxes, and weapons type restrictions. When you go back and look at the facts, like the fact that Russia said to the FBI a whole year before this shit even happened that they needed to look into the brothers because of their flight patterns. And if you look into it enough, you might even find some articles (If they arent fucking covered up) on how the FBI had the two brothers on their "tracking list" or whatever the fuck it is for 5 years prior to this shit. You really think the FBI, while getting paid what they do, didnt see this coming at all and were completely oblivious to the brothers movements? You dont fucking just shake the FBI dude, it doesnt happen. And before you start saying shit is exactly the way it seems, which it rarely ever is exactly, dig up as many news articles from the week after the bombing and tell me how much goddamn conflicting facts you will here. Its like a damn game of telephone. If you really analyze the shit from that day and the week after, you would be asking some major questions too. If our government would let 9/11 happen and the deaths of over 30 thousand people that fateful day, I am sure they would have no problem with this little bombing. Lol, you can even find the head of the FBI describing the MO of the bomb type, but then going on to say the situation does not add up to any terrorist attack. A legit terrorist would target a bus, or a stadium. Something closed in and highly populated. Idk, I am not trying to be all radical sounding and shit, but when you start to look around you and analyze EVERY SINGLE peice of information you recieve unobjectively, you start to see some crazy shit.. Like morgellons fibers, I do not want to get into this cause of course theres so much controversy regarding it, but it is 100% real, and people who dont believe in this mass abuse of the people are in denial. They need to go get their own fucking lab grade microscope and take their own skin samples. Lol I have.. and the findings are fucked up and unexplainable unless you start thinking up some science fiction shit, forreal it is not cool.
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That's a good point Self. That's something that I've wondered myself for the longest time and the only conclusion I came up with is it's not whether the moral is good or bad because as you said it is very subjective. It's what action or events come because of you having that moral and how it affects the people around you.
We some of us came to the conclusion that good and evil is relative and subjective right?
Is relative and subjective to us human. Because we have different up-brings live experiences and culture.
So only God knows what is good and what is bad because as the Creator an ultimate Judge He has should have the final word.
Because we humans be nature will always disagree amongst ourselves.
But that is my opinion.
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I agree completely and totally pretty much with the gist of this post jundu, lol just to let you know, I am not siding against anyone, lol just stating things how I see them
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And I appreciate it.
Well I tried and wanna sleep. See you around Not_A_Sheep.
Wish you the best
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That's a good point Self. That's something that I've wondered myself for the longest time and the only conclusion I came up with is it's not whether the moral is good or bad because as you said it is very subjective. It's what action or events come because of you having that moral and how it affects the people around you.
We some of us came to the conclusion that good and evil is relative and subjective right?
Is relative and subjective to us human. Because we have different up-brings live experiences and culture.
So only God knows what is good and what is bad because as the Creator an ultimate Judge He has should have the final word.
Because we humans be nature will always disagree amongst ourselves.
But that is my opinion.
If there were a divine creator, well... by virtue of being "divine" I suppose you'd be right. But frankly, I don't care whether he created me or not: if he created me without the capacity to comprehend right and wrong, then I fail to see how I can be blamed for anything I've done wrong. Including believing he doesn't exist in the first place.
I think it really hinges on your conception of "divine creator." So what if he created me? I don't believe he's divine. Fuck 'im.
God, I really do have an issue with being too blunt and offensive sometimes don't I... I really don't intend offense, sincerely I don't: it's just the most expedient way of illustrating my thoughts on the matter. Besides, I'm insulting somebody I don't believe in, not you guys -- so why take offense? ::)
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i was a muslim, until i took psychedelic. muslim believe in their holy book, al quran, and they claim it is the truth yet they dont have any sound evidence to support their claim. and they claim other religion holy book is full of shit because of lack of evidence. yet they dont see the same thing for al quran.
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I'm amazed that you and I disagree on something, but it seems we do. Perhaps it's arrogance, perhaps not, but I consider you a man of extreme intelligence who seems to have come to conclusions that are almost identical to my own -- and to me this is one of the most basic conclusions one can come to, hence my surprise.
Now we're getting somewhere! Intelligent people disagree all the time. It's *interesting* :) Let's take a look at our disagreement and see if we can't find some common ground.
This might get a little long-winded, and I might feel the need to repeat the same concepts in different linguistic packages. I apologize for this, I just haven't figured out a way to more succintly communicate these ideas.
Morality is very much a malleable, subjective, "made up" thing. Yes, I do mean all morality, and no, I am not psychotic or a sociopath; I just don't consider it "wrong" to do a thing that makes me feel bad. Hurting people still makes me feel bad, but I do not think it's intrinsically "wrong," nor do I think it's some kind of objective quality that's attached to an action. I don't do it and I don't want to do it, but frankly that's just because it would make me feel bad. How is that not by its very nature subjective?
I understand where you're coming from, here, and for a long time I wasn't able to move from your position. But something about it never sat right with me. For example: why does western culture commonly accept the notion that since (e.g.) honor killing[1] is a cultural practice, it therefore cannot be considered immoral? From what I can gather so far about you, I suspect that this might similarly bug you. Not coincidentally, this conclusion of moral relativism in modern liberal thought is not only very unsettling to religious people, it is one of the VERY few (perhaps the only) areas where religion seemingly has the high ground. This is not a victory for religion, however (e.g. see jundullahi's claims in this thread that boil down to moral relativism), but a "simple" failure to more fully apply our capacities of reason. What we have here is a failure to notice the values intrinsic to our nature, at least in part due to the fact that we just aren't very good at accepting that our subjectivities are bound by the same rules and systems that bind all of existence.
1. We innately value truth as opposed to untruth, and the beliefs we form due to our calculations of truth/untruth inform everything we think/decide/do.
2. The subject ("I") is a phenomenon of the universe, and is therefore *caused* by the cosmos.
3. There are facts that we can reasonably know about the cosmos, as it is structured.
:: There are facts that we can reasonably know about subjectivity. Another way of stating this would be that we can reasonably understand that some claims about what seem to be subjective ideas can be better or worse than others. Simply noticing this reality gives us all of the material we need to construct, maintain, and continually improve an objective morality oriented toward what we already value: truth.
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Let this sink in for a moment, maybe even step away for a while and contemplate this.
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The problem we're dancing around is that of moral ground, which I'll now address. To say that hurting people is not intrinsically "wrong" is to remove all meaning from the word "wrong", as well as "harm". The fact that harming yourself/others makes you, and MOST humans, subjectively feel bad is all we need to notice. This phenomenon itself is something we can objectively know with reasonably high confidence, as it's a fact about the brain that can now even be observed through neuroscience (fMRI). What you're failing to notice here, and what seemingly most intelligent people fail to notice (including myself for a very long time), is that we have all the moral ground we should ever need to reasonably claim. Here it is:
1. Good/Correct: The absolute maximum amount of well-being for all conscious beings.
2. Bad/Wrong: The absolute maximum amount of suffering for all conscious beings.
Sam Harris calls this the Moral Landscape[2], and the concept is powerful shit. Before allowing your mind to rail against this idea, allow me to say this: If morality isn't fundamentally concerned with the suffering/well-being of all conscious beings, then I don't know what you're talking about. What's more, anyone who would claim this doesn't know what they're talking about either.
Hitler was moral by his own standards, and I don't see anything anywhere that objectively proves my morals are better than his. Mine just say let everyone choose their own life, insofar as it doesn't inhibit another's right to choose the same. His told him differently. But his were just as "good" as mine -- in outcome obviously they're radically different, but putting that aside I mean: what exactly makes his somehow less true or good than my own other than human biology (which again seems to me by its very nature to be subjective)?
Would you play a simple thought experiment with me? I'm going to do a simple substitution.
Sam is physically healthy by his own standards, and I don't see anything anywhere that objectively proves that the methods derived through the scientific discipline of medicine are better than his. Medicine just emphasizes prolonging "healthy" life, insofar as it doesn't involve throwing up all the time, constantly being in excruciating pain, and on average dying at a ripe old age of 30. Sam's standards tell him differently. But Sam's standards are just as "good" as those of modern medicine -- in outcome obviously they're radically different, but putting that aside I mean: what exactly makes Sam's idea of physical health somehow less true or good than that of medicine other than human biology (which again seems to me by its very nature to be subjective)?
The bar you are setting for objective morality cannot be cleared by ANY field of science. Your method can be used to demolish the "right"-ness of anything, really, and yet I don't think you would find it reasonable to apply it to medicine. Why? You mention "radically different" outcomes. The outcome is the point, and "putting it aside" is to remove all meaning from the question at hand. It's how we understand which ideas are better or worse than others. So yeah, Hitler may have been moral "by his own standards", but we can reasonably know that his morals were dramatically, horrifyingly wrong.
That's a good point Self. That's something that I've wondered myself for the longest time and the only conclusion I came up with is it's not whether the moral is good or bad because as you said it is very subjective. It's what action or events come because of you having that moral and how it affects the people around you.
You actually just made MY point. Your 2nd sentence doesn't agree with the 3rd. The 2nd implies that all moralities are equal, but the 3rd quite clearly implies that they are not.
[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
[2] www.samharris.org
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[..] * Angry and pissed off at abitpeckish * [...]
I'm not trying to piss you off or troll you. Your intuitions are really quite good. They just keep getting swept away into nonsense by your lack of disciplined thought. All I'm trying to say is that you should only make claims for what you can reasonably argue. If you hold yourself to this idea, and stop trusting that your intellect is always right, you'll realize "holy shit, there's a shit ton I need to learn" and you might even find the motivation to go do it. Again, you have some great intuitions. Your conclusions, however, are suspect because you have to back conclusions up with truth. And that is hard work.
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To deny that morality is relative is to ignore all the latest scientific studies on the subject.
To affirm that morality is absolute is to indulge in as much wishful thinking as any religious believer believing in his god (and is the same process by which religions got this notion as well).
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To deny that morality is relative is to ignore all the latest scientific studies on the subject.
To affirm that morality is absolute is to indulge in as much wishful thinking as any religious believer believing in his god (and is the same process by which religions got this notion as well).
There may be 10 differing but morally equivalent answers to a given moral question[a], but this is not the same as saying ALL answers are morally equivalent. To draw that conclusion is a failure of logic.
Also, claiming objective morality is not the same as claiming that humans are capable of fully answering all moral questions. It seems clear that we cannot fully answer all moral questions, and perhaps we cannot even fully answer ANY moral questions. We can, however, reasonably and reliably distinguish which answers are better or worse than others. Answers to moral questions have consequences, and it is through these consequences that we can gain insight to their moral value.
Notice I stay away from the term "absolute morality". I do this because we tend to think of "absolute" as having attachment with "singular", which just confuses the issue. We don't need to KNOW everything about objective morality to orient ourselves rightly toward it. All we need to do is to tap into our innate first principle: ideas that are more true are better than ideas that are less true. (again, finding and understanding truth at deeper levels is the hard work)
If you seriously think we can't differentiate these things, then you've utterly failed to notice the fruits of this value that are all around you. For example, the fact that we can even have this conversation in this way is a manifestation of the human capacity to discern what is real from what isn't combined with the human capacity to improve upon its innate capacities.
[a] On top of this, there may be 1000 more much better answers that we simply have not even articulated yet. And possibly 100 more even better answers than that, that we simply will never be able to formulate. None of this means that all answers are equal.
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i was a muslim, until i took psychedelic. muslim believe in their holy book, al quran, and they claim it is the truth yet they dont have any sound evidence to support their claim. and they claim other religion holy book is full of shit because of lack of evidence. yet they dont see the same thing for al quran.
Well my friend you got punk'd
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1. Good/Correct: The absolute maximum amount of well-being for all conscious beings.
2. Bad/Wrong: The absolute maximum amount of suffering for all conscious beings.
I could not agree with you more; the details are arguable, but based solely on this point I would not only vote for you for president, I would go so far as to run your goddamn campaign and rig the election if necessary to get you into office. ... Yes, well, what can I say; "morality is relative?" :P
The bar you are setting for objective morality cannot be cleared by ANY field of science. Your method can be used to demolish the "right"-ness of anything, really, and yet I don't think you would find it reasonable to apply it to medicine. Why? You mention "radically different" outcomes. The outcome is the point, and "putting it aside" is to remove all meaning from the question at hand. It's how we understand which ideas are better or worse than others. So yeah, Hitler may have been moral "by his own standards", but we can reasonably know that his morals were dramatically, horrifyingly wrong.
You make an excellent point, you really do. In fact this very point has been like a vice crushing my soul at every turn my entire life: what I desire -- some sort of metaphysical purpose or reason or "divinity" if you will -- not only doesn't exist, it outright cannot exist. We simply "are"; and then one day we "are not." Anything further is an attribution lent by our fundamental mechanism of understanding. Hence, "subjective."
I agree with you completely. Yet I don't see how the majority of the race being biologically "wired" to appreciate one end more than another makes the pursuit of that end any less subjective. A sadist that made all life on earth suffer unimaginable agony until we all expired for his/her amusement would be just as moral, as far as I'm concerned; I'm quite glad that most people don't feel that's desirable, but I'm still not seeing how the fact that our biology is composed of the same matter as that which the rest of the universe is, makes the more popular composition -- namely that joy is good and pain is bad -- better than the alternative? (is that a run on sentence? If it isn't, it probably should be, hah)
I guess in short what I'm getting at is that I don't believe "right" and "wrong" exist at all, and I seem to continually forget that people use those words very differently than I do.
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also in a completely objective POV there is no right/wrong i dont think the universe really cares- it just is
The universe cares because we care. We exist inside the universe. All of us, in our entirety. It rationally follows that in a very limited but very deep way: we *are* the universe. This concept underlies the subjective experiences we commonly label as spiritual Please see my post here[2] where I touch on this idea in that context.
[1] An easier way to understand this might be "the universe cares WHEN we care".
[2] http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=149076.msg1141553#msg1141553
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the facts are plain and simple :
religion exists only in PRIMITIVE cultures !
like the one mankind is.
religion has NO USE (except maybe making old lonely women a bit happy) ,
but lots of disadvantages.
since primitive mankind is not going to let loose on its own, it must be forbidden.
and it must be forbidden by brutal force, a lot harder than communists did it.
anyone practicing or advertising religion has to be executed immediately on the spot where caught.
this has to be done for 3 or 4 generations.
then, and only then, we have a slight chance to get rid of this EVIL called religion.
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"
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Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
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"
(John Lennon - Imagine)
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To deny that morality is relative is to ignore all the latest scientific studies on the subject.
To affirm that morality is absolute is to indulge in as much wishful thinking as any religious believer believing in his god (and is the same process by which religions got this notion as well).
There may be 10 differing but morally equivalent answers to a given moral question[a], but this is not the same as saying ALL answers are morally equivalent. To draw that conclusion is a failure of logic.
Also, claiming objective morality is not the same as claiming that humans are capable of fully answering all moral questions. It seems clear that we cannot fully answer all moral questions, and perhaps we cannot even fully answer ANY moral questions. We can, however, reasonably and reliably distinguish which answers are better or worse than others. Answers to moral questions have consequences, and it is through these consequences that we can gain insight to their moral value.
Notice I stay away from the term "absolute morality". I do this because we tend to think of "absolute" as having attachment with "singular", which just confuses the issue. We don't need to KNOW everything about objective morality to orient ourselves rightly toward it. All we need to do is to tap into our innate first principle: ideas that are more true are better than ideas that are less true. (again, finding and understanding truth at deeper levels is the hard work)
If you seriously think we can't differentiate these things, then you've utterly failed to notice the fruits of this value that are all around you. For example, the fact that we can even have this conversation in this way is a manifestation of the human capacity to discern what is real from what isn't combined with the human capacity to improve upon its innate capacities.
[a] On top of this, there may be 1000 more much better answers that we simply have not even articulated yet. And possibly 100 more even better answers than that, that we simply will never be able to formulate. None of this means that all answers are equal.
It's clear from this post that you've haven't taken into account the latest scientific research most of which is easily accessible on the internet.
This research clearly shows that human beings sense of morality is relative.
When people are presented with a straightforward moral choice that requires a yes/no response the choice they make varies depending on the way that it is presented to them very clearly evincing moral relativity.
For example the people tested generally chose to permit the killing of one person to save the lives of many as long as long as they were physically removed from the killing however on the other hand if the killing had to be up close and personal they chose not to permit the killing of the one person to save the many.
No matter how well reasoned a person's arguments appear if they they are contrary to sound empirical scientific evidence they should be rejected otherwise they are no different to the false prophets of religion.
It might be worth your while reading 'Blink' by Malcolm Gladwell in which he references several recent studies on how we make decisions. It is evident that although we are capable of rational thought (hence our aptitude for science) when we make decisions we appear to have evolved to make these from an emotional not a rational standpoint. It is emotion that underpins our decision making process not rationality. This is a biological fact that has shown up in PET scan after PET scan and is scientifically undeniable.
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1. Good/Correct: The absolute maximum amount of well-being for all conscious beings.
2. Bad/Wrong: The absolute maximum amount of suffering for all conscious beings.
I could not agree with you more; the details are arguable, but based solely on this point I would not only vote for you for president, I would go so far as to run your goddamn campaign and rig the election if necessary to get you into office. ... Yes, well, what can I say; "morality is relative?" :P
The bar you are setting for objective morality cannot be cleared by ANY field of science. Your method can be used to demolish the "right"-ness of anything, really, and yet I don't think you would find it reasonable to apply it to medicine. Why? You mention "radically different" outcomes. The outcome is the point, and "putting it aside" is to remove all meaning from the question at hand. It's how we understand which ideas are better or worse than others. So yeah, Hitler may have been moral "by his own standards", but we can reasonably know that his morals were dramatically, horrifyingly wrong.
You make an excellent point, you really do. In fact this very point has been like a vice crushing my soul at every turn my entire life: what I desire -- some sort of metaphysical purpose or reason or "divinity" if you will -- not only doesn't exist, it outright cannot exist.
Well...yeah. Like I've said in other posts (see my immediately previous post), it's a non-sensical question. The only way we can have purpose is if we provide it to ourselves. If a person feels she has no purpose, then she must create one for herself. A deep inquiry into the nature of the cosmos (e.g. causality, entropy, consciousness) results in a few uncomfortable truths:
1. this will be more difficult for some than others
2. there will likely exist (in rare cases) brains that simply lack this capacity (e.g. psychopathy)
3. there will likely exist moral geniuses just as there exist musical/scientific/mathematical geniuses (pick your prophet) (but pick a good one please)
4. we are not the direct authors of our thoughts/intentions/actions (i.e. free will does not exist)
5. consciousness is distinct from personality (i.e. the self is an illusion)
6. the moral state of humanity places the species in a very, VERY dangerous position at the current moment (2013). guns can be printed. we can remotely kill each other will terrifying efficiency. weapons that can kill millions of people in an instant are already in the possession of a country (Pakistan) whose people can't even disagree with EACH OTHER without using themselves as kamikaze weapons to indiscrinately kill as many people as possible, and the people who do so truly believe they are going directly to the highest echelons of eternal bliss. *shudder*
We simply "are"; and then one day we "are not." Anything further is an attribution lent by our fundamental mechanism of understanding. Hence, "subjective."
If you don't agree that (e.g.) medicine is a rightly (as opposed to wrongly) oriented endeavor, then I suggest you're either forcing yourself to unvalue what you already value as a simple consequence of existing or you do not have a normative brain. Which would be okay, because a) that's bound to happen and b) we live in a time where we can actually mitigate and even fix some of the common brain anomalies we experience (e.g. I have raging ADD), and c) knowledge is what gives us the ability to transcend.
I agree with you completely. Yet I don't see how the majority of the race being biologically "wired" to appreciate one end more than another makes the pursuit of that end any less subjective. A sadist that made all life on earth suffer unimaginable agony until we all expired for his/her amusement would be just as moral, as far as I'm concerned;
This is meaninglessness. When you go this far, you dissolve your intelligent mind into a sea of noise. We have every right to put an unethically acting person away in an institution. Funnily enough, this practice would likely be a net win for all involved parties. I am not convinced all psychopaths will necessarily act or even *want* to act upon immortal impulses, I am not convinced that their opinion of their own well-being is an important consideration, nor am I convinced that they even have the ability to truthfully report the status thereof. Psychopaths exist, but that's just math.
I'm quite glad that most people don't feel that's desirable, but I'm still not seeing how the fact that our biology is composed of the same matter as that which the rest of the universe is, makes the more popular composition -- namely that joy is good and pain is bad -- better than the alternative? (is that a run on sentence? If it isn't, it probably should be, hah)
I guess in short what I'm getting at is that I don't believe "right" and "wrong" exist at all, and I seem to continually forget that people use those words very differently than I do.
Again, it doesn't matter whether or not we can prove the existence of right or wrong. All that matters is that the question matters to us. It does, and so we need to figure out the most reliable path to the very best answers. Which has always been the whole point of all of science. Not the right answers, in any absolute sense, just the best ones. We can figure that shit out.
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Then there must be an ultimate truth that defines right and wrong.
Because if not people will always continue to disagree and fight amongst them self's.
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It's clear from this post that you've haven't taken into account the latest scientific research most of which is easily accessible on the internet.
This research clearly shows that human beings sense of morality is relative.
I will grant you that our *understanding* of morality is relative. I believe I've said this many times now. Again, it does not follow that there are no wrong answers to moral questions. It just doesn't. Objective truths exist, therefore objective morality can be reasonably understood.
When people are presented with a straightforward moral choice that requires a yes/no response the choice they make varies depending on the way that it is presented to them very clearly evincing moral relativity.
You're describing humans, not morality.
For example the people tested generally chose to permit the killing of one person to save the lives of many as long as long as they were physically removed from the killing however on the other hand if the killing had to be up close and personal they chose not to permit the killing of the one person to save the many.
No matter how well reasoned a person's arguments appear if they they are contrary to sound empirical scientific evidence they should be rejected otherwise they are no different to the false prophets of religion.
It might be worth your while reading 'Blink' by Malcolm Gladwell in which he references several recent studies on how we make decisions. It is evident that although we are capable of rational thought (hence our aptitude for science) when we make decisions we appear to have evolved to make these from an emotional not a rational standpoint.
The train experiment does not work in your favor. It is merely descriptive of how humans value intent, distance, psychological distance, and more when making difficult decisions between nothing but "bad" choices. Just because it's difficult and maybe even impossible to figure out what the definitively correct answers are to the train experiment, it does not follow that those answers cannot exist. What if the subject of the train experiment makes the objectively "wrong" choice, which we later come to find out after gathering enough information? Should we punish her for it? Of course not, she had to make a quick decision and it was impossible for her to know all the factors and process it in enough time to take the appropriate action.
It is emotion that underpins our decision making process not rationality. This is a biological fact that has shown up in PET scan after PET scan and is scientifically undeniable.
This is an elementary mistake you are making. Both emotion and rationality (along with numerous other factors) underpin our decision-making processes. The human brain functions in a much more complicated and interdependent manner than you are allowing with such sweeping statements.
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Then there must be an ultimate truth that defines right and wrong.
Because if not people will always continue to disagree and fight amongst them self's.
Yeah, but we have enough information about the universe to know that the gods of human imagination are not "it".
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You know at first abitpeckish I was agreeing with a lot of your points but now I'm not sure what point you are trying to make because you seem to just to argue with or counter everyone's point.
Quote from: Miah on Today at 06:22 am
That's a good point Self. That's something that I've wondered myself for the longest time and the only conclusion I came up with is it's not whether the moral is good or bad because as you said it is very subjective. It's what action or events come because of you having that moral and how it affects the people around you.
You actually just made MY point. Your 2nd sentence doesn't agree with the 3rd. The 2nd implies that all moralities are equal, but the 3rd quite clearly implies that they are not.
How does the 2nd sentence not agree with the 3rd? If your moral is to take advantage of less fortunate people what do they think the outcome of that will be? What if your moral is to help the less fortunate? Do you see that? Two different actions and two different outcomes. The moral in in itself doesn't mean shit inside of us but when it's acted upon and manifests in the real world then we can judge the validity or the 'rightness' of your so called moral. With that being said a moral is still subjective. We as humans most of the time can agree on the 'rightness' of a moral some of the time or most of the time depending who you're asking. I could give a shit about helping you prove your point cause you don't really have one. You're all over the map on this.
Killing innocent people to further our own religious causes is not a moral that is practiced or believed in the West. Go to other countries in the Middle East and that's not so.
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You know at first abitpeckish I was agreeing with a lot of your points but now I'm not sure what point you are trying to make because you seem to just to argue with or counter everyone's point.
Some points I disagree with, and some ideas I wish to extend. Either way, maybe I or someone else will learn something. Seems worth it to me.
How does the 2nd sentence not agree with the 3rd? If your moral is to take advantage of less fortunate people what do they think the outcome of that will be? What if your moral is to help the less fortunate? Do you see that? Two different actions and two different outcomes.
Okay, yeah. Agreed. We can measure those outcomes, and we can determine which outcomes are more desirable than others. We can also determine which attitudes and intentions are more and less reliable at resulting in more desirable outcomes. We can decide "what is more desirable" based upon the simple first principles I mentioned in an above post. We can do all of this in the context of reasonable beliefs. We cannot do this reliably or even reproducibly within the context of unreasonable beliefs.
The moral in in itself doesn't mean shit inside of us but when it's acted upon and manifests in the real world then we can judge the validity or the 'rightness' of your so called moral.
Well yeah. I would even say that someone who *believes* in immoral things but *acts* in a highly moral way, while paradoxical, would have to be considered a moral person.
With that being said a moral is still subjective. We as humans most of the time can agree on the 'rightness' of a moral some of the time or most of the time depending who you're asking.
I will continue to beat this drum: what you are saying here does not mean that all moral ideas are equal.
I could give a shit about helping you prove your point cause you don't really have one. You're all over the map on this.
How so? Please elaborate as to where I am "all over the map".
Killing innocent people to further our own religious causes is not a moral that is practiced or believed in the West. Go to other countries in the Middle East and that's not so.
This is true, and all I'm telling you is something you already know but seemingly refuse to believe. We can reasonably (as in to use our capacity for reason) say that these cultures you speak of, that kill innocent people to further religious causes, are wrong to do so. Objectively wrong. We can say this, we should say this, we can FIX this, and we should at least try.
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This is true, and all I'm telling you is something you already know but seemingly refuse to believe. We can reasonably (as in to use our capacity for reason) say that these cultures you speak of, that kill innocent people to further religious causes, are wrong to do so. Objectively wrong. We can say this, we should say this, we can FIX this, and we should at least try.
Ah now we are getting somewhere. This is the actual paradox of the whole subject. How do you convince someone what their doing is wrong and immoral when in their belief they are acting in accordance with their inner compass of morality. Now you add a distorted hierarchy of morals, extreme violence, poverty, and oppression to the mix and what set of morals would come of that?
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I agree with you mo pretty much all your points but I think we were just trying to arrive to two different points. Another example in the Western world one of our morals is that most of us general put a high value on human life. In places like the Middle East and Africa that just isn't so. Kids are desensitized at such a young age by seeing dead bodies on the street or having their family murdered. Now what kind of morals will that kid have growing up?
To be honest it's kinda hard to predicate that but I think it's safe to say the morals of that child will exponentially different than the morals of a child growing up in the West where for the most part it's pretty safe and comfortable lifestyle. Now if said child in the West was living in poverty then the comparison would be a bit more similar and they might have some similiarities but then again taking into account the religious differences if applicable, life experiences, the rationality of the person, and their willingness to have their basic human needs supplied we will still ultimately come to two different sets of moral values.
So the question remains if one religions moral teaches their people that anyone that has a different belief then themselves that they are second class citzens and deserved to be persecuted and punished to the ends of the earth. That logic is about as flawed as the concept of turning Iraq into a Democratic state. I can pretty much conclude that was a failed experiment. I'll leave with this peaceful verse from the Quran to prove my point:
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"
Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
The last verse is especially important cause it proves my point of what I was saying earlier.
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If you don't agree that (e.g.) medicine is a rightly (as opposed to wrongly) oriented endeavor, then I suggest you're either forcing yourself to unvalue what you already value as a simple consequence of existing or you do not have a normative brain. Which would be okay, because a) that's bound to happen and b) we live in a time where we can actually mitigate and even fix some of the common brain anomalies we experience (e.g. I have raging ADD), and c) knowledge is what gives us the ability to transcend.
Of course it would be okay. I don't believe anything is wrong, remember? How could it not be okay? ;)
I agree with you completely. Yet I don't see how the majority of the race being biologically "wired" to appreciate one end more than another makes the pursuit of that end any less subjective. A sadist that made all life on earth suffer unimaginable agony until we all expired for his/her amusement would be just as moral, as far as I'm concerned;
This is meaninglessness. When you go this far, you dissolve your intelligent mind into a sea of noise. We have every right to put an unethically acting person away in an institution.
I have to stop you here: you're attempting to use unethical behavior in your illustration of how certain behavior is unethical -- but I'm questioning your conclusion of what constitutes ethical behavior. It's a circular argument.
Again, it doesn't matter whether or not we can prove the existence of right or wrong. All that matters is that the question matters to us. It does, and so we need to figure out the most reliable path to the very best answers. Which has always been the whole point of all of science. Not the right answers, in any absolute sense, just the best ones. We can figure that shit out.
Here's what you seem to be missing: my sense of morals may be different than your own, which in turn may be different than the next fellow's, and so on, and so on. I assumed that what you consider to be moral behavior was based on the majority of people agreeing with said behavior. You value happiness for all. That's wonderful. It's also absolutely no better than a serial killer who doesn't give a fuck about anyone. His feelings differ. What makes yours better -- and please don't say that yours bring about more happiness, because that's a goal that your sense of morality causes (or that you otherwise innately desire by virtue of your biology): you can't claim that yours is better than his because yours fulfills its own goals.
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Here's what you seem to be missing: my sense of morals may be different than your own, which in turn may be different than the next fellow's, and so on, and so on. I assumed that what you consider to be moral behavior was based on the majority of people agreeing with said behavior. You value happiness for all. That's wonderful. It's also absolutely no better than a serial killer who doesn't give a fuck about anyone. His feelings differ. What makes yours better -- and please don't say that yours bring about more happiness, because that's a goal that your sense of morality causes (or that you otherwise innately desire by virtue of your biology): you can't claim that yours is better than his because yours fulfills its own goals.
If you're not willing to allow that "the least possible suffering for all conscious organisms" would be better than any other possible outcome, then there's indeed nothing I can say to you to move you from your position. I can only point out that this position is either solipsism or nihilism.
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Here's what you seem to be missing: my sense of morals may be different than your own, which in turn may be different than the next fellow's, and so on, and so on. I assumed that what you consider to be moral behavior was based on the majority of people agreeing with said behavior. You value happiness for all. That's wonderful. It's also absolutely no better than a serial killer who doesn't give a fuck about anyone. His feelings differ. What makes yours better -- and please don't say that yours bring about more happiness, because that's a goal that your sense of morality causes (or that you otherwise innately desire by virtue of your biology): you can't claim that yours is better than his because yours fulfills its own goals.
If you're not willing to allow that "the least possible suffering for all conscious organisms" would be better than any other possible outcome, then there's indeed nothing I can say to you to move you from your position. I can only point out that this position is either solipsism or nihilism.
As I understand those two words, what I'm saying has nothing to do with nihilism and only marginally or remotely to do with solipsism...? I'm really quite curious to understand your position -- not just trying to win a debate or something -- because this is something that seems so blatantly obvious to me that I can't really understand how anyone can miss it. It's perplexing, to be frank, and I hate not understanding things.
Do you really not see my point, namely that your desire for all to benefit and be happy is no more valid, or just, or right, or moral, or any other word in the English language, than those of someone else who has desires that differ from your own? I mean they're both equally valid: you desire everyone to be happy. So do I. But not everyone does. There are people who desire that everyone suffers. I mean they're out there somewhere or other right now. I just don't understand how someone can miss that there's absolutely nothing that says our desires are somehow just plain better? I mean of course they're better by our standards, but... fuck our standards: you can't just say "mine are better because they fulfill their own goals," I mean -- so does the guy who wants to hurt everybody. His desires fulfill their own goals too.
Do you not agree, or do you just accept that it's better for everyone to be happy because you just want it to be better?
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I understand I do not know everything, and I just wish to tell people my point of view, not really trying to debate much or argue much, I am here to buy drugz mostly and make thousands of dollars so I can eventually build myself an organic farm. Lol I am more worried about my physical and spiritual health, then why we are here, and what everything "means" lol. We could sit here and talk about that forever, and I like to make the best of my time, you see?
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every religion is stupid.
besides, why people think their religion is the right one?? These guys are two optimistic, seriously, an infinite number of religions out there, but wait, MINE IS THE ONE THAT IS RIGHT!
come on people, lets think a little more.
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every religion is stupid.
besides, why people think their religion is the right one?? These guys are two optimistic, seriously, an infinite number of religions out there, but wait, MINE IS THE ONE THAT IS RIGHT!
come on people, lets think a little more.
Why is religion stupid?
And if you define religion as ideology would you also say the same
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religion this
religion that
why not smoke
upon a fat sack?
before we croak
all take a toke
and relaaaaaaaacks....
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religion this
religion that
why not smoke
upon a fat sack?
before we croak
all take a toke
and relaaaaaaaacks....
Or pop a benzo in that sack
we call a belly
Yet be careful
You pop to much your muscles
Will feel like jelly
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For my self, and I do know this is not everyone's path, religion obscures and suppresses some simple facts. Maybe this is more for the (a)gnostic, even the atheist, but try asking Her instead of him, and be surprised.
That's not to say all religion is baseless, or useless. But if we don't learn from histories mistakes, aren't we?
Not trolling Islam either, you're welcome to prove me wrong :) Please don't try Reductio ad absurdum, it does trump itself! Here's a interesting thought to start with, though the Quran is new to me, it stuck out
“ Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-
He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-
Taught man that which he knew not. ”
Then Christianity is pretty funny too. Virgin Mary = metaphor for the Earth. Again if you can prove me wrong, feel free. I'll still love you!
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For my self, and I do know this is not everyone's path, religion obscures and suppresses some simple facts. Maybe this is more for the (a)gnostic, even the atheist, but try asking Her instead of him, and be surprised.
That's not to say all religion is baseless, or useless. But if we don't learn from histories mistakes, aren't we?
Not trolling Islam either, you're welcome to prove me wrong :) Please don't try Reductio ad absurdum, it does trump itself! Here's a interesting thought to start with, though the Quran is new to me, it stuck out
“ Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-
He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-
Taught man that which he knew not. ”
Then Christianity is pretty funny too. Virgin Mary = metaphor for the Earth. Again if you can prove me wrong, feel free. I'll still love you!
Well I give you a plus point that you suggest asking God Himself. Because that is the only way to go. If you search the truth ask God (only the Creator God not Jesus or anything)
So in your understanding God is a female?
And how did you came up with the idea that Virgin Mary is a metaphor for the Earth?
If you believe that the Revelation are from God. You must back that up with prove form them.
If not then well you can take any but and understand how you desire. And not how it was understood by to people it was revealed to in the first place.
And since you are quoting from the Quran. It means either you are reading the Quran
And what is wrong with the verses you quoted?
The second verse of the Surah al-Alaq describes how Allah creates the human fetus in the womb of its mother. This has been description is proven correct by recent science.
Wish you the best
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If you're not willing to allow that "the least possible suffering for all conscious organisms" would be better than any other possible outcome, then there's indeed nothing I can say to you to move you from your position. I can only point out that this position is either solipsism or nihilism.
As I understand those two words, what I'm saying has nothing to do with nihilism and only marginally or remotely to do with solipsism...? I'm really quite curious to understand your position -- not just trying to win a debate or something -- because this is something that seems so blatantly obvious to me that I can't really understand how anyone can miss it. It's perplexing, to be frank, and I hate not understanding things.
I can relate. We all can :)
Do you really not see my point, namely that your desire for all to benefit and be happy is no more valid, or just, or right, or moral, or any other word in the English language, than those of someone else who has desires that differ from your own?
I understand that my motives may different than someone else's, yes. Also I will point out that my first principle of "good/true" is not really about benefit or happiness. At least not directly.
I mean they're both equally valid: you desire everyone to be happy. So do I. But not everyone does. There are people who desire that everyone suffers.
And I'm saying that we can determine, with a high degree of confidence, that these desires for suffering obviously align less with "good/true" than yours and my desires. Here is where you refuse to admit that this it is reasonable to say that "good/true" is inherently valuable, which I say is either nihilism or solipsism because it removes value and therefore meaning from the terms true and good. To say "I believe that all answers are equal" is either to say "I believe nothing at all" or to say "I only believe in me".
I mean they're out there somewhere or other right now. I just don't understand how someone can miss that there's absolutely nothing that says our desires are somehow just plain better? I mean of course they're better by our standards, but... fuck our standards: you can't just say "mine are better because they fulfill their own goals," I mean -- so does the guy who wants to hurt everybody. His desires fulfill their own goals too.
Our standards are better or worse based upon what they manifest. In other words: beliefs have consequences. It is through these consequences that we can understand what is "better" or "worse", if those terms are to mean anything at all.
Do you not agree, or do you just accept that it's better for everyone to be happy because you just want it to be better?
I do not agree that there is "absolutely nothing" that speaks to the inherent value in our desires, thoughts, intentions, and actions. In fact, a cute way of stating my position would be that "absolutely everything" speaks to an inherent value quotient of all our desires, thoughts, intentions, actions, and that the more we understand about the nature of this "absolutely everything" the more precisely we can understand those values.
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When the mormon come to my house and try to sell me the bible ...
I try to sell them drugs!!!
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If I could +1 you DumpManChronic I would lol
I should try that next time..
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For my self, and I do know this is not everyone's path, religion obscures and suppresses some simple facts. Maybe this is more for the (a)gnostic, even the atheist, but try asking Her instead of him, and be surprised.
That's not to say all religion is baseless, or useless. But if we don't learn from histories mistakes, aren't we?
Not trolling Islam either, you're welcome to prove me wrong :) Please don't try Reductio ad absurdum, it does trump itself! Here's a interesting thought to start with, though the Quran is new to me, it stuck out
“ Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-
He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-
Taught man that which he knew not. ”
Then Christianity is pretty funny too. Virgin Mary = metaphor for the Earth. Again if you can prove me wrong, feel free. I'll still love you!
Well I give you a plus point that you suggest asking God Himself. Because that is the only way to go. If you search the truth ask God (only the Creator God not Jesus or anything)
So in your understanding God is a female?
And how did you came up with the idea that Virgin Mary is a metaphor for the Earth?
If you believe that the Revelation are from God. You must back that up with prove form them.
If not then well you can take any but and understand how you desire. And not how it was understood by to people it was revealed to in the first place.
And since you are quoting from the Quran. It means either you are reading the Quran
And what is wrong with the verses you quoted?
The second verse of the Surah al-Alaq describes how Allah creates the human fetus in the womb of its mother. This has been description is proven correct by recent science.
Wish you the best
Thank you jundullahi, I wish you the best as well! If/When it comes to you, I don't know how it would present itself, it is definitely a set of tests, and adapts accordingly. It's neat.
Now as to my "answers", I believe it was a reward by virtue of questioning. Long story short, I asked if the godless need a god. Water as the essence of life, revealed the Earth as the only safety net we have. Yikes, right? It gets better if you let it. We're globalized now, like it or not. All religions are ours to learn now. We can see through them, with science and logic - from polarity springs neutrality! Hint - The sword wasn't the answer. And the meaning of life is too profound for me to spoil for you, sorry.
My research on the Quran is quite limited, plucked from the internet's garden. The next verse is very much appreciated. As a westerner my perspective of Muslims has been at least slightly tainted throughout the years, you know what propaganda can do :( Our paths may be different, but it doesn't mean either are unjust! And I'm really not picking on Islam, just thirsting for knowledge. I'll leave the Quran alone for now :)Older fish to fry...
Revelations - Do you know who, or how many wrote those? I don't trust them. It's much deeper than that. Does history belongs to those who kept and twisted it for their own gain? Not all of it, mix sources and keep digging. Keep asking. History repeats and repeats in an odd fashion, especially in the cradles of civilization. Would Rome be rewarded for their greed with a blueprint of the master plan? Ha.
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Does God need a goddess. Do you mean like a man needs a woman.
Then no the He is Self Sustaining and does not anybody.
I feel sad that the image of Muslims is tainted.
In the Quran there is verse saying something like this
If they fight you fight them and if they incline to peace so do you must incline to peace.
I hold no personal grudge to you or any own in the world. But I do hold a grudge against
The governments that started the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan. And continue to support the
all the oppressive dictatorial puppet regimes in the whole world.
And I am not alone in this opinion.
Sorry that I cannot reply in more detail. Because I am very tried.
Revelations were giving to Prophets. And there were many Prophets so many revelation in the ages. Most have been corrupted by people except one that is the Quran.
I wish you the best in lifes test
And true success after death.
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I do not agree that there is "absolutely nothing" that speaks to the inherent value in our desires, thoughts, intentions, and actions. In fact, a cute way of stating my position would be that "absolutely everything" speaks to an inherent value quotient of all our desires, thoughts, intentions, actions, and that the more we understand about the nature of this "absolutely everything" the more precisely we can understand those values.
Interesting. You seem to be describing a vague form of philosophical hedonism. In a sense I agree, and I certainly act as though I agree -- I go about my day acting like a preference utilitarian and wish everyone did the same -- but logically, I do not believe my preference is any more worth striving for than the next fellow's. I strive for my own because it is my own, and what I find gratifying is pleasurable. And I seek pleasure, just as every other creature does.
I find it odd that you think there's something more than selfishness to your motivations, but I thank you for your response.
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To each their own.
As long as it doesn't interfere with another human's life in a negative way.
Going out of your way to make one feel uncomfortable about their beliefs is as bad as if not worse than them trying to get you to see their way.
At the end of the day, it's like arguing over which is the best flavor of ice cream.
To each their own.
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religion, mannnn...
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I do not agree that there is "absolutely nothing" that speaks to the inherent value in our desires, thoughts, intentions, and actions. In fact, a cute way of stating my position would be that "absolutely everything" speaks to an inherent value quotient of all our desires, thoughts, intentions, actions, and that the more we understand about the nature of this "absolutely everything" the more precisely we can understand those values.
Interesting. You seem to be describing a vague form of philosophical hedonism. In a sense I agree, and I certainly act as though I agree -- I go about my day acting like a preference utilitarian and wish everyone did the same -- but logically, I do not believe my preference is any more worth striving for than the next fellow's. I strive for my own because it is my own, and what I find gratifying is pleasurable. And I seek pleasure, just as every other creature does.
I find it odd that you think there's something more than selfishness to your motivations, but I thank you for your response.
Heh, I'm not sure I've ever been called a hedonist. That's pretty cool :) BTW, I think you should read The Moral Landscape. Some of the things I'm talking about are much more fleshed out than I have been able to recreate and/or regurgitate. Sam Harris is onto some really, *really* interesting stuff, and I credit his work (and drugs :) ) with shaking me awake from the intellectual void of why.
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I just spent a goodchunk of time reading this thread, excellent guys! I have never seen a stick of dynamite in a bucket of shit blow up and not hit the proverbial fan! You guys touch on some killer concepts in this thread, gratz peckish you have schooled me some and made me think. In the words of george W Bush" MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!" One of my favorite questions to ask religious people is this "If god is all powerful, can he microwave a burrito so hot that he himself can. Not eat it?"
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Yep
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It makes me happy and hopeful to see that this concept is slowly catching on. One day we will use our big old brains and we will become the Gods of whom we told stories.
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I just spent a goodchunk of time reading this thread, excellent guys! I have never seen a stick of dynamite in a bucket of shit blow up and not hit the proverbial fan! You guys touch on some killer concepts in this thread, gratz peckish you have schooled me some and made me think. In the words of george W Bush" MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!" One of my favorite questions to ask religious people is this "If god is all powerful, can he microwave a burrito so hot that he himself can. Not eat it?"
Praise be to Allaah.
This question – and others like it – contain a great contradiction. Many disbelievers try to use such questions in their debates with Muslims, seeking to force the respondent to say either “No He can’t” in which case they will say, “How can He be a god if He cannot create something?” or if he says, “Yes, He can,” they will say: “How can He be a god if He is unable to carry or lift this rock?”
The answer is:
This question is not valid at all because the power of Allaah is not connected to irrationalities. How can He be a god if He is unable to lift their “rock,” when one of the attributes of Allaah is power? Can there be any attribute in any created thing that is greater than the attributes of its Creator?
Professor Sa’d Rustam answered this question in a sound scientific manner, which we will quote in full here. He said:
The power of Allaah – which is undoubtedly absolute and unlimited – is connected to things that are rationally possible, not things that are rationally impossible. No matter how absolute and limitless His power, it must still remain within the bounds of possibility, and it is not connected to irrationalities. This is not a limitation of it. In order to clarify this point we will give some examples:
We ask all of these bishops and theologians: Can God create another god like Him? If they say yes, we say to them: How can this created being be a god if he is created? How can he be like God when he has a beginning, whereas God exists from eternity? In fact the phrase “creating a god” is a sophism or false argument, and is a contradiction in terms, because the mere fact that something is created means that it cannot be a god. This question is like asking could God create “a god who is not a god”? it is self-evident that the answer can only be: The power of Allaah has nothing to do with that, because the idea that something can be a god and not a god is illogical and is irrational, and the power of Allaah has nothing to do with irrationalities.
Another example: We may also ask them: Can God really expel anyone from under His control? If they say yes, they have imposed a limit on the control of Allaah, and if they say no – which is correct – they have agreed with us that the power of Allaah is absolute and has nothing to do with irrationalities, because it is rationally impossible for any created being to be expelled from the control of its Creator.
A third example: One day one of the disbelievers asked me: Can your Lord create a rock that is so huge that He would be unable to move it? And he added in a sarcastic manner: If you say, yes He can, you will have stated that your Lord is unable to move the rock, and this indicates that He is not a god, but if you tell me, No, He cannot, you will have admitted that He is not able to do all things, therefore He is not a god.
I answered this disbeliever simply: Yes, it is not part of the power of Allaah that He is able to create a rock that He is unable to move, because everything that Allaah creates He is able to move, but the fact that it is impossible for the power of Allaah to be connected to the creation of this supposed rock does not indicate that He is lacking in power. Rather – on the contrary – it is indicative of His complete power, because this question of yours is like asking: Can Allaah be unable to do something that may be rationally possible? No doubt, if we say no, this does not mean that the power of Allaah is limited, rather it is an affirmation of the completeness of His power, because not being incapable means having power. If we say that Allaah cannot be unaware of or forget anything, saying that does not mean that He is incapable or is lacking, rather it is an affirmation of His perfection and complete power and knowledge.
The Four Gospels and the Epistles of Paul and John deny the divinity of Christ as it is denied by the Qur’aan, by Sa’d Rustam.
And Allaah knows best.
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Praise be to Allaah.
This question – and others like it – contain a great contradiction. Many disbelievers try to use such questions in their debates with Muslims, seeking to force the respondent to say either “No He can’t” in which case they will say, “How can He be a god if He cannot create something?” or if he says, “Yes, He can,” they will say: “How can He be a god if He is unable to carry or lift this rock?”
The answer is:
This question is not valid at all because the power of Allaah is not connected to irrationalities. How can He be a god if He is unable to lift their “rock,” when one of the attributes of Allaah is power? Can there be any attribute in any created thing that is greater than the attributes of its Creator?
Professor Sa’d Rustam answered this question in a sound scientific manner, which we will quote in full here. He said:
The power of Allaah – which is undoubtedly absolute and unlimited – is connected to things that are rationally possible, not things that are rationally impossible. No matter how absolute and limitless His power, it must still remain within the bounds of possibility, and it is not connected to irrationalities. This is not a limitation of it. In order to clarify this point we will give some examples:
We ask all of these bishops and theologians: Can God create another god like Him? If they say yes, we say to them: How can this created being be a god if he is created? How can he be like God when he has a beginning, whereas God exists from eternity? In fact the phrase “creating a god” is a sophism or false argument, and is a contradiction in terms, because the mere fact that something is created means that it cannot be a god. This question is like asking could God create “a god who is not a god”? it is self-evident that the answer can only be: The power of Allaah has nothing to do with that, because the idea that something can be a god and not a god is illogical and is irrational, and the power of Allaah has nothing to do with irrationalities.
Another example: We may also ask them: Can God really expel anyone from under His control? If they say yes, they have imposed a limit on the control of Allaah, and if they say no – which is correct – they have agreed with us that the power of Allaah is absolute and has nothing to do with irrationalities, because it is rationally impossible for any created being to be expelled from the control of its Creator.
A third example: One day one of the disbelievers asked me: Can your Lord create a rock that is so huge that He would be unable to move it? And he added in a sarcastic manner: If you say, yes He can, you will have stated that your Lord is unable to move the rock, and this indicates that He is not a god, but if you tell me, No, He cannot, you will have admitted that He is not able to do all things, therefore He is not a god.
I answered this disbeliever simply: Yes, it is not part of the power of Allaah that He is able to create a rock that He is unable to move, because everything that Allaah creates He is able to move, but the fact that it is impossible for the power of Allaah to be connected to the creation of this supposed rock does not indicate that He is lacking in power. Rather – on the contrary – it is indicative of His complete power, because this question of yours is like asking: Can Allaah be unable to do something that may be rationally possible? No doubt, if we say no, this does not mean that the power of Allaah is limited, rather it is an affirmation of the completeness of His power, because not being incapable means having power. If we say that Allaah cannot be unaware of or forget anything, saying that does not mean that He is incapable or is lacking, rather it is an affirmation of His perfection and complete power and knowledge.
The Four Gospels and the Epistles of Paul and John deny the divinity of Christ as it is denied by the Qur’aan, by Sa’d Rustam.
And Allaah knows best.
[/quote]
Ah jundullahi,
you have impressed me that is an excellent way to refute my question. Many religious people are often unsure how to even broach that question and it's always a great way for me to gauge the intelligence level and debating ability of whomever i am conversing with.
I personally have friends whom subscribe to nearly every religion, and I love debating relaity and philosophy with them. I was raised in a pentecostal christian family and attended a christian private high school from K-12, I never truly considered myself a christian, and after a long and deep journey of mind and spirit, I finally have come to my current belief structure. I currently profess myself as agnostic, much to the chagrin of my atheist friends. I profess myself as an agnostic because I believe in unlimited possibilities and uphold the search for ultimate truth which I believe is the core of the human experience.
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Dont thank me I was not writing by me. I know the answer but myself did not know how to put in in to words.
So went on Google. Copy paste.
To be continued
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I just spent a goodchunk of time reading this thread, excellent guys! I have never seen a stick of dynamite in a bucket of shit blow up and not hit the proverbial fan! You guys touch on some killer concepts in this thread, gratz peckish you have schooled me some and made me think. In the words of george W Bush" MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!" One of my favorite questions to ask religious people is this "If god is all powerful, can he microwave a burrito so hot that he himself can. Not eat it?"
The answer is:
This question is not valid at all because the power of Allaah is not connected to irrationalities. How can He be a god if He is unable to lift their “rock,” when one of the attributes of Allaah is power? Can there be any attribute in any created thing that is greater than the attributes of its Creator?
Professor Sa’d Rustam answered this question in a sound scientific manner, which we will quote in full here. He said:
The power of Allaah – which is undoubtedly absolute and unlimited – is connected to things that are rationally possible, not things that are rationally impossible. No matter how absolute and limitless His power, it must still remain within the bounds of possibility, and it is not connected to irrationalities. This is not a limitation of it.
While this is indeed a clever way of unasking the question, the questions that immediately follow this answer iare
1) How can/do we know there is a god?
2) How can/do we know this god is Allah?
We can test the claims of Islam to know that the premise of question 2 is false. The only way to answer the question 1 in a reasonable way (at least right now) is to simply unask it or at least leave it unanswered. It is clear that we cannot even investigate question 1 until we learn to ask better questions. Which leaves us firmly planted in the territory of "we don't know", at least for the time being.
In order to clarify this point we will give some examples:
We ask all of these bishops and theologians: Can God create another god like Him? If they say yes, we say to them: How can this created being be a god if he is created? How can he be like God when he has a beginning, whereas God exists from eternity? In fact the phrase “creating a god” is a sophism or false argument, and is a contradiction in terms, because the mere fact that something is created means that it cannot be a god. This question is like asking could God create “a god who is not a god”? it is self-evident that the answer can only be: The power of Allaah has nothing to do with that, because the idea that something can be a god and not a god is illogical and is irrational, and the power of Allaah has nothing to do with irrationalities.
This is saying "Allah = the universe". When you do this, you falsify all but the most non-specific (i.e. philosophical) claims of Islam.
Another example: We may also ask them: Can God really expel anyone from under His control? If they say yes, they have imposed a limit on the control of Allaah, and if they say no – which is correct – they have agreed with us that the power of Allaah is absolute and has nothing to do with irrationalities, because it is rationally impossible for any created being to be expelled from the control of its Creator.
So Allah is in absolute control of Satan, psychopaths, child molesters, wife beaters, and so on? Got it. Allah is a dick.
A third example: One day one of the disbelievers asked me: Can your Lord create a rock that is so huge that He would be unable to move it? And he added in a sarcastic manner: If you say, yes He can, you will have stated that your Lord is unable to move the rock, and this indicates that He is not a god, but if you tell me, No, He cannot, you will have admitted that He is not able to do all things, therefore He is not a god.
I answered this disbeliever simply: Yes, it is not part of the power of Allaah that He is able to create a rock that He is unable to move, because everything that Allaah creates He is able to move, but the fact that it is impossible for the power of Allaah to be connected to the creation of this supposed rock does not indicate that He is lacking in power. Rather – on the contrary – it is indicative of His complete power, because this question of yours is like asking: Can Allaah be unable to do something that may be rationally possible? No doubt, if we say no, this does not mean that the power of Allaah is limited, rather it is an affirmation of the completeness of His power, because not being incapable means having power. If we say that Allaah cannot be unaware of or forget anything, saying that does not mean that He is incapable or is lacking, rather it is an affirmation of His perfection and complete power and knowledge.
It is obvious that the professor is clever, granted, but this line of thinking brings Islam into a meaningless void. Allow me to reiterate: Islam is a specific religion that claims a specific personality for god, claims divine responsibility for a specific series of events, claims divine responsibility for specific natural phenomena, claims exclusive domain over all knowledge of the nature of truth. The claims of Islam are just poorly suited to the facts of reality, and because of this we can know that the god personality of Islam is no god at all. As long as humans attach innately human conceptions (e.g. personality/ego) to universal truth, they will be unable to realize the potential of what humanity *can* know.
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[...] after a long and deep journey of mind and spirit, I finally have come to my current belief structure. I currently profess myself as agnostic, much to the chagrin of my atheist friends. I profess myself as an agnostic because I believe in unlimited possibilities and uphold the search for ultimate truth which I believe is the core of the human experience.
Well done, sir. It's a strange and beautiful experience to see other awoken minds.
Your friends are wrong, sadly. The only reasonable conclusion is agnosticism. I'm an atheist in *opinion* because I don't assume the existence of a god personality, but I am agnostic in conclusion because I require myself to be reasonable. Lucky for your friends, they know somebody who has better answers than them. Perhaps you can help them wake up.
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I think the question 'Is there a higher intelligence' is philosophical masturbation (not taking anything away from it, btw). We may never know and science has proven that nature chugs perfectly & predictably well without interference from a divine source. However, the likelihood that there is a God in the image created by Abrahamic religions (mostly Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is the most stupid idea ever conceived by man.
God did not build us in his own image, rather man made god in his own.
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There is no proof for god, thus god is in same field as unicorns, elves, satan etc...
But the concept of karma and rebirth have more scientific proof compared to others. Like people recalling they died in a fatal gunwound and they having birthmarks and brain damage by the spot they were shot thru in the head.when u do good to others, they do good back to you, i would guess its from our hunter and gatherer society's gene.
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why does your 'god' have to be all powerful? there are signs in nature of intelligent design everywhere you look. ever heard of the fibonacci sequence? golden ratio (phi). plants and animals all over the world follow/use this sequence (visually shown as a spiral) Pinecones, sunflowers, seahorses, snails, and even your own body. measure from the ground to your belly button (while standing) then measure from your belly button to the top of your head. divide and you get the golden ratio, it also works with your finger bones, arm bones, leg bones and so on. Hurricanes and tornados also show the same spiral. Galaxies also share....
if this isnt proof of inteligent design im not sure what would be. i consider 'god' more to be the architect of the universe. like a computer programmer somewhere. perhaps not as all powerful as some would like to believe. For the people who ask 'So Allah is in absolute control of Satan, psychopaths, child molesters, wife beaters, and so on? Got it. Allah is a dick.'
no, allah/god cant control you, thats where your free will comes in, if you choose to let satan into your life and harm others instead of helping. also, without people like that to contrast the good how would you know what good was? maybe someone that child molester victimised grew stronger from the trauma? perhaps that woman/man grew up to become someone who helps others in a much greater way than they were ever harmed.
When dealing with 'god' you have to think big picture (in my own opinion)
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there are signs in nature of intelligent design everywhere you look. ever heard of the fibonacci sequence? golden ratio (phi). plants and animals all over the world follow/use this sequence (visually shown as a spiral) Pinecones, sunflowers, seahorses, snails, and even your own body. measure from the ground to your belly button (while standing) then measure from your belly button to the top of your head. divide and you get the golden ratio, it also works with your finger bones, arm bones, leg bones and so on. Hurricanes and tornados also show the same spiral. Galaxies also share....
You're misusing the word "intelligence". That existence has structure does not necessitate that it is designed by an awareness.
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i disagree, with all of the ways things 'could' happen, why do they seem to follow this ratio? i only gave a few examples but there are many many more including DNA (which is also very similar to a computer code)
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i disagree, with all of the ways things 'could' happen, why do they seem to follow this ratio? i only gave a few examples but there are many many more including DNA (which is also very similar to a computer code)
Because it's stable enough to continue to exist. If it wasn't, we'd be talking about some other ratio or mathematical phenomena. It's just that simple.
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Religion can be a beautiful gift to give someone. It's a great form a population control, a great way to meet people with similar interests, and a great way to pass the time. The internet is also all of these things and I must admit to being a devout internet worshiper.
As someone who was raised by people who had no religion whatsoever and mostly shunned others that did, I am not religious in any way but sometimes I do wish I was.
At the end of the day people like to create groups to exclude people and separate themselves from other experiences and ideas, life is easier with a closed mind.
Does being the last sane person on earth make me crazy?
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Does being the last sane person on earth make me crazy?
Not necessarily, but believing that just might ;)
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Does being the last sane person on earth make me crazy?
Not necessarily, but believing that just might ;)
Haha, nice one, just a joke though, I lost my sanity long ago.
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Abitpeckish, I really dont understand you. I mean, pretty mucvh 99% of everything you are saying sits right with me and my beliefs, yet when I have stated things I believe earlier, you bash them hardcore basically saying I dont understand what I am saying or I am restating things others have said. Lol I only read the posts that relate to my posts anyways, I have no desire to read through an entire thread of such diversified beliefs, and people butting heads. I feel mostly awake to the world around me, and I believe what I believe, nomatter what you may believe about me =) Beliefs of people in general should be taken with a grain of salt, they can never compare to "the ultimate truths"(Or whatever you want to call what some search their whole lives for) in this world, and no human being will ever see it completely, so why do you all try so goddamn hard? lol, sorry if I sound like I am rambling random shit, just thought I'd pop my head back in. Oh yes and I think people cant get in touch with Mother Nature anymore, and truely feel and understand the power of the "divine" is because they humanize the idea too much, and overanalyze it way to heavily. But too bad all the religions in the world confuse everybody so much.
Oh yes and i read people saying something about intelligence and awareness, and I thought everyone would be interested to know that every single piece of physical matter in our universe, somehow is literally "aware" of when it is being observed? In that particles actually behave differently when being observed and when not observed. Pretty fucking crazy, and just makes you wonder so much more shit lol
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well, i don't know about obsolete, but tiresome for sure. all these labels, & tests, inclusions & exclusions, all the effort to capture the numinous in a specimen cup to quantify its purity, that we may bless it as safe for consumption. whew - it wears me right out!
fundamentally tho', i sense there is something. in actual day-to-day life, i see evidence of planned evil - & this seems to me to be a manifestation of a devil..... 1/2 of a coin, or yin/yang, or balance scale. the other half, does not seem to be the christian equivalent of 'good'. rather, i perceive that 'god' seems to embody the 'chaos principle'. yes - good stuff can happen, but also bad stuff. this is all, i think, pretty random, but, it is the best way for the most amazing, beautiful, inspiring manifestations of consciousness to become reality. nature, in essence, is both good and bad - but it is not evil. evil is a conscious process (of man) that seeks to hurt, manipulate, destroy. is it the ego, and the body, which cause us to focus too much on our differences, rather than the joy in our very human hearts?
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Abitpeckish, I really dont understand you. I mean, pretty mucvh 99% of everything you are saying sits right with me and my beliefs, yet when I have stated things I believe earlier, you bash them hardcore basically saying I dont understand what I am saying or I am restating things others have said.
What I have taken you to task for multiple times now is your propensity to just keep spouting out whatever thought comes into your head about this subject, clearly not understanding when you've stopped talking about "what is true", gone straight past "it might be reasonable to expect that 'X' is true", and begun postulating random stabs in the dark at "what could be true" and thinking these stabs are somehow meaningful. This is not a reliable method of acquiring knowledge. It can be a useful practice when used in moderation, but to apply it everywhere simply leaves your mind in a wash of meaninglessness. Which is fine, I guess, but it's a pretty superficial method of experiencing existence.
Lol I only read the posts that relate to my posts anyways, I have no desire to read through an entire thread of such diversified beliefs, and people butting heads. I feel mostly awake to the world around me, and I believe what I believe, nomatter what you may believe about me =)
Believe whatever you like but if your beliefs don't cohere with reality or can't be reasonably expected to, humanity can and should reserve the right to ignore your opinion on matters concerning reality.
Beliefs of people in general should be taken with a grain of salt, they can never compare to "the ultimate truths"(Or whatever you want to call what some search their whole lives for) in this world, and no human being will ever see it completely, so why do you all try so goddamn hard? lol, sorry if I sound like I am rambling random shit, just thought I'd pop my head back in. Oh yes and I think people cant get in touch with Mother Nature anymore, and truely feel and understand the power of the "divine" is because they humanize the idea too much, and overanalyze it way to heavily. But too bad all the religions in the world confuse everybody so much.
I agree that humanity over-analyzes everything and find it somewhat ironic that you would point that out, given what I keep pointing out to you.
Oh yes and i read people saying something about intelligence and awareness, and I thought everyone would be interested to know that every single piece of physical matter in our universe, somehow is literally "aware" of when it is being observed? In that particles actually behave differently when being observed and when not observed. Pretty fucking crazy, and just makes you wonder so much more shit lol
This is what I'm talking about. You're drawing conclusions about things you barely understand, if at all. To observe a thing is to interact with it. In our case, to visually observe something is an incredibly complex series of events that fundamentally involves energy exchanges within a chain of a staggering number of localities.
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For all those people that is deny the existent of God the Creator. I ask you a question do you need a torch to see the sun? No of course not. Because His existence if obvious. There is a book that is called the Torch I suggest seeking it out.
Well for I those that do believe that a supreme being exist He must be all Powerful. And those that say why cannot He stop evil. Well you have free will right. All people have free will and you cherish it. So if some people out of there free will do evil is this Gods fault? This life is a test, this life is not paradise if this would be paradise no bad thing would happen. Would you agree?
And those that claim the religion are made up by man. Well go study some religion. Some religions/ideologies are made by man or where alter.
And religions ascribing character and personalty to God. For those that believe that there is some one they cannot see how would you know how that some one is like? Well maybe it is so that, that some one want to inform you about himself? So he sends you a letter with an description how he is like. Maybe he is wiser and more knowledgeable then you. So in that letter he also include so advice some guidance.
So if you have not seen God you can never deny his attributes.
And that God is the universe that? The universe began with a big bang so it has a begin therefore is must have an end. This is pure and simple logic. God the Creator is Ever - Lasting. The universe is not.
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Praise be to Allaah.
This question – and others like it – contain a great contradiction. Many disbelievers try to use such questions in their debates with Muslims, seeking to force the respondent to say either “No He can’t” in which case they will say, “How can He be a god if He cannot create something?” or if he says, “Yes, He can,” they will say: “How can He be a god if He is unable to carry or lift this rock?”
The answer is:
This question is not valid at all because the power of Allaah is not connected to irrationalities.
I feel it's worth 10x the emphasis that it's gotten: this man tried to defend his God by pointing out his God has no connection to rationality whatsoever. Usually I have a lot of patience for people, but this is a truly frightening -- and dangerous -- level of stupidity.
Why the fuck haven't we had a full blown world wide nuclear catastrophe yet? Just hurry up and kill us all already, will you "Allah": as a race we're too stupid and arrogant to be allowed to survive.
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Arguing about religion is such as waste of time, unless you actually enjoy arguing and getting riled up.
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@jundullahi
As you explain it, your god "Allah" sounds no different in nature than what I mean when I say "universe" or "cosmos". Until you bring in words written by men about what "Allah" desires (i.e. the Quran). The cosmos does not desire, it simply exists. Conscious beings inside the cosmos do experience desire, but desire does not define the cosmos in any deep way. I know that your Allah does not exist because he simply cannot exist.
Your culture is beautiful, and the products of its desire to know the cosmos (e.g. the Quran) are beautiful. Unfortunately they are also painfully ugly and uselessly violent because not only are they are incomplete (as all communicable human knowledge simply must be), but they are demonstrably inferior to the greater collection of understanding we already have.
I hope you know that I do not discount the poetry, philosophical insights, and life-affirming parts of your belief system. I love them, I am thankful for them, I wish to know more about them, and I adopt them when I find them to be the very best method to conceptually understanding ourselves and the cosmos. I simply discard the rest, because I can and do know that it is no longer useful. Imagine what we could achieve as a species if we could all (or really just MOSTLY) come together and do the same.
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This should go into the DPR's politics thread
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Whatever your view on religion is, you should not push it on others.
You have better things to do in your life, than argue about such topics, enjoy the time you have on this Earth!
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Whatever your view on religion is, you should not push it on others.
You have better things to do in your life, than argue about such topics, enjoy the time you have on this Earth!
I dont believe that anybody was pushing any thing on the other. We just have a friendly civilized debate.
Wish you the best
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Lol, there you go again... Go invent a new vaccine or something geesh
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Lol, there you go again... Go invent a new vaccine or something geesh
Is it not obvious that I'm trialling vaccines for the highly contagious plague of unreason that will ultimately cause our premature extinction?
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You guys should speak to Jesus on this. You know he's a vendor right ???
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Lol, I really dont think there is too much hope left, as you may call me crazy, but I am completely convinced our planet is enslaved, and completely in control by an alien race. I have seen the signs, and not just people talking about it on the internet, my own independent research. It is scary, but our only hope is love. But honestly if the world ends soon, I hope it is a major cataclysm that wipes the slate clean, and allows life to start again on earth, there is little chance of humans + earth coexisting together, we have fucked this place we call a home up so bad, it is impossible to fix already =( Sad, sad
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Lol, I really dont think there is too much hope left, as you may call me crazy, but I am completely convinced our planet is enslaved, and completely in control by an alien race. I have seen the signs, and not just people talking about it on the internet, my own independent research. It is scary, but our only hope is love. But honestly if the world ends soon, I hope it is a major cataclysm that wipes the slate clean, and allows life to start again on earth, there is little chance of humans + earth coexisting together, we have fucked this place we call a home up so bad, it is impossible to fix already =( Sad, sad
If you would but learn to better use your innate capacity for reason, you could either prove or free yourself of such nonsense beliefs.
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So there's a great direction this thread hasn't touched on yet, what are everyones feeling about the existence of aliens, advanced or otherwise?
I personally feel that their is a pretty good chance of their being advanced alien life out in the cosmos (Aliens more advance than humans). I definitely believe in less advanced alien life since that is so astronomically likely just by the sheer size of the universe.
Jundullahi, what is the islamic stance on alien life in the cosmos?
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I saw on the history channel that E.T's did not want us to know the truth or as signified in the bible as the apple which is a metaphor for truth and knowledge such as where we came from. And the snake was a metaphor for the alien.
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The reptillian race that enslaves our planet are fucking snakes, if you dont believe me try to explain George Bush Jr.'s pupils in his main picture on wikipedia right now, oh yes and there is no way it could have been altered, because the pic was sourced straight from the department of defense. There are aliens, and they are closer than you think. And, abitpeckish, Sorry if I seem to have a horribly negative viewpoint, but just look at the Earth, how are we going to un-saturate the entire ocean of the thousands of tons of plastic that is just melted into sun baked synthetic gel, mixed in with our ocean water. Entire species are dying in huge droves. Something big is happening, and I am sorry to inform you that it is not going in a good direction. We have fucking scientists inventing ways to form a nuclear blast into a concentrated beam. Korea is testing nukes high up in the atmosphere which could DESTROY a countries ENTIRE ELECTRIC GRID. Lol I am sorry to say, but with the most amount of positive energy in the world, we are not going to turn our world around. Human beings are the root of all evil on the Earth, well as most would see it. I personally think the true root of all evil is the "reptilians" although I hate calling them that because at this point it is more than just a theory to me. Lol I am honestly trying to be as positive as possible, but when you fucking pull a peice of skin off your lip and examine it under a microscope to find that your skin cells are crawling with multicolored "life-like" nano fibers, that MELT LIKE FUCKING PLASTIC when you burn them, and show up in lab tests as being made out of silicone plastics, you start to worry about shit. Lol at this point I am truely only concerned about my own health, lol in my eyes humanity is fucked. I will hope and hope as much as I can for a solution, But if true yin/yan blance exists in this world, which I believe does, there is no way the universe will continue to let us live on this Earth. Lol, just think about it, we are directly injecting our Mother Earth with MEGATONS of poison pretty much on a DAILY BASIS. Everything is made out of plastics now too. Did you know many of the Eskimo tribes living in Alaska are having major fertility problems because the main part of their diet is seal, and the seals are literally full of plastic, from eating all the fish who had plastic in them. Did you know it is scientifically proven that newborn babies come out of the womb PRE-POLLUTED with hundreds of toxic chemicals? How do we even begin to turn this around? And why is no one trying harder? One of the biggest fucking problems is most people dont even give a fuck anymore and are more worried about their stupid little personal problems. Lol sorry for the rant, I seriously just want an organic farm somewhere I can literally escape the system. Oh yes and I just love how we are using airplanes to spray megatons of aluminum metal particles into our atmosphere to "reflect the suns rays back" while it clearly has not helped the warming of our globe 1 percent, yet they continue to do it year, after year after year. If there was not a darker agenda at play, I feel we would be doing much different things than we are now. People have barely even begun to realize the damn problems, let alone deal with them. But I am vouging for the human race, so heres to us all, THE 99% We could make a difference if we all woke up...
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Believing is God is what you do when you're a coward and/or a narcissist.
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Whoa, I'm not so sure about the reptilians, I think you might be consuming too many of the many great options on SR.
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Nah I just smoke weed, and trip a few times a year, and like I said I do not like calling them that, that is just how they are know to the majority of the population. And most people who believe in such things are quickly dismissed as crazy or something in a matter of seconds, without even a second guess in judgement. Pretend you are not from Earth at all, you are not even a human, and think of it this way. IF, there was an advanced race of Aliens that wanted a slave race on Earth, and they had the technology to "blend in" with humans, Think of how easy It would be for them to unnoticably infiltrate our planet, Pull up strings on all the major points of power in the world, Use their advanced technology to alter history in great ways, such as "Jesus" and "Mohammad" (Explaining the "miracles" they were able to do) And basically they would harvest everything of worth on our planet like taking candy from a baby. I think its funny how most alien movies show an alien race that is only a few hundred years ahead of us, where as in reality, If another race could make it too our Earth from another solar system (even another planet in our own) They would literally have to be hundreds of thousands of years ahead of us. And lets not forget, the more technology we are able to create, the faster it evolves, in a n exponential fashion.
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Dude, I looked at the picture of Bush Jr. and I have no idea what you're talking about, besides, if a reptilian alien race was able to look exactly like humans why would they mess up something so much a part of the human experience, the eyes? I mean if Bush really was an alien why wouldn't he just wear colored contacts to look like real eyes? I know that you are probably dismissed quiet quickly but you have to understand that your claims seem very outlandish.
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It kinda pisses me off that some people have to take such a preachy and oppositional approach to religion.
Maybe it's just because I've been lucky enough to grow up in a fairly secular society, and even though I went to a religious school we were never forced to believe in something that we didn't need to.
It just annoys me so much when you get so many arrogant atheists who think they're better just because they have a different opinion.
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Did you blow it up full size? Because his pupils are not fucking circles, they have flat edges almost like upsidedown triangles. And his eyes have been blue and brown in some pictures, google george bush jr. brown eyse sure you'll find something. But if you zoom in enough where literally only his eyes are on your screen you will see clear as day. And that is not picture quality problme it is fucking High Resolution. Anyways, they do do their best to hide their true forms, If you were a completely alien race do you know how hard it would be to blend in?? Anyways I am sure most of the people on the news and other various television viewings where I notice the whack eyes and crazy things going on in peoples faces. I think they may be like hybrids or something and are under some sort of mind control but I am not sure. And yes pretty much most of this stuf sounds like it is straight out of a fucking science fiction novel, thats what scares me...
And I am with you wildrepublic, as I am not really trying to preach anyting, but I wish for people to see the things that are right in front of them, no one can look at George Bush's pupils in that picture and tell me they are human. Lol I know everyone's just gonna say I'm crazy cause thats how the "mindcontrol" works, which you all will think that sounds soooo fucking crazy whacked out too. But trust me it is ok if you dont believe me lol, I hardly want to believe myself, but If I could open just 1 person's eyes to this shit, then I would have accomplished something
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I'm of the opinion that until a person passes away, they won't know for sure if there is in fact a God. Yes, I do believe there is a God but I won't know for sure until the day I die. I certainly won't be wasting my precious time speculating on what is in store for me once I pass away. I will however hold onto the thought that there is something there, some sort of a spiritual after life, but have no perception on what it actually is. I certainly don't believe that the Bible is completely accurate. In over 2000 years, the stories have undoubtedly changed (Chinese Whispers). The problem with Religion, IMO, is it's all based on a belief, a faith if you like. You only have to look at Christianity and the many different Denominations that have evolved from it. From Catholic to Anglican and the many in between, all are based around Christianity yet each one has different beliefs which are really based on one's perception of past events occurring 2000+ years ago. A lot has changed since then and if those same events were to happen today, people would more than likely form a different perspective again.
Everyone is entitled to their view but until each of us are dead, none of us can provide a definitive and factual answer. Even when we die, that information will never be passed on for obvious reasons. Believe what you like but enjoy life as we know it and when the time comes one day down the line to exit this wonderful place, we can move on to what ever comes next.
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[* babbling nonsense about alien lizard conspiracies *]
You're noising up what has been a very nice, respectful, intense, and detailed conversation with sheer nonsense. It's not appreciated, and it would be nice if you would stop. If you feel the need to share your intellectual guano, please do it in your own thread. We're busy talking about reality in here.
It kinda pisses me off that some people have to take such a preachy and oppositional approach to religion.
Maybe it's just because I've been lucky enough to grow up in a fairly secular society, and even though I went to a religious school we were never forced to believe in something that we didn't need to.
It just annoys me so much when you get so many arrogant atheists who think they're better just because they have a different opinion.
Agreed. One should prove the higher quality of his or her opinions through his or her words and actions.
Believing is God is what you do when you're a coward and/or a narcissist.
While there is truth to be had in this statement, it is unwise to adopt this as an operating belief. I've said before in this thread and a few others that beliefs have consequences. If we were to operate our lives upon this incomplete, childish, and somewhat foul summary, the horrific consequences are quite easy to imagine. Obviously it's more complicated than this.
I'm of the opinion that until a person passes away, they won't know for sure if there is in fact a God. Yes, I do believe there is a God but I won't know for sure until the day I die.
Okay, but how can you be sure you'll find out when you die? Spoiler: you can't.
I certainly won't be wasting my precious time speculating on what is in store for me once I pass away.
You and me both. Focussing too much on what happens when we die has such a terrible cost regarding what happens while we live.
I will however hold onto the thought that there is something there, some sort of a spiritual after life, but have no perception on what it actually is. I certainly don't believe that the Bible is completely accurate. In over 2000 years, the stories have undoubtedly changed (Chinese Whispers). The problem with Religion, IMO, is it's all based on a belief, a faith if you like. You only have to look at Christianity and the many different Denominations that have evolved from it. From Catholic to Anglican and the many in between, all are based around Christianity yet each one has different beliefs which are really based on one's perception of past events occurring 2000+ years ago. A lot has changed since then and if those same events were to happen today, people would more than likely form a different perspective again.
Everyone is entitled to their view but until each of us are dead, none of us can provide a definitive and factual answer. Even when we die, that information will never be passed on for obvious reasons. Believe what you like but enjoy life as we know it and when the time comes one day down the line to exit this wonderful place, we can move on to what ever comes next.
The very notion that these religions have changed over time disproves their claims of exclusive possession of universal truth. There's a lot of good stuff in them, but the only way to keep using that good stuff is to place the rest of it into the mental context (category) of fiction.
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Okay, but how can you be sure you'll find out when you die? Spoiler: you can't.
That's a fair observation and you are correct. However, if I adopt the same premise I applied to your comment, you can't be sure I won't find out when I eventually die either. It works both ways. In essence, our comments could be best described as educated guesses, solely based on information we have come across throughout our lives on Earth. Depending on what actually happens to our spirit once we die, these type of questions are pure speculation and nothing more.
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k.
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Okay, but how can you be sure you'll find out when you die? Spoiler: you can't.
That's a fair observation and you are correct. However, if I adopt the same premise I applied to your comment, you can't be sure I won't find out when I eventually die either. It works both ways. In essence, our comments could be best described as educated guesses, solely based on information we have come across throughout our lives on Earth. Depending on what actually happens to our spirit once we die, these type of questions are pure speculation and nothing more.
I know I can't be sure, it's built-in to what I said. Religions have simply rigged the game against themselves. They cannot be the exclusive source of all truth they claim to be and exist in a universe where certain questions cannot be answered using language or even at all. QED.
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If a tree falls on you in a forest, and there's no one around to see it, did it happen?
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You and me both. Focussing too much on what happens when we die has such a terrible cost regarding what happens while we live.
Thank you. You've led me to a valuable insight here: it doesn't matter how pointless my life is once it's over. It has meaning here and now, in a sense. Interesting... you may have just done me one of the greatest services anyone ever has. Or maybe it's a passing thought, either way, thank you :)
I know I can't be sure, it's built-in to what I said. Religions have simply rigged the game against themselves. They cannot be the exclusive source of all truth they claim to be and exist in a universe where certain questions cannot be answered using language or even at all. QED.
God I wish you were a woman... you have one of the greatest living minds I've ever known. It's so sexy. Why must everyone so awesome be so very dead :'(
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You and me both. Focussing too much on what happens when we die has such a terrible cost regarding what happens while we live.
Thank you. You've led me to a valuable insight here: it doesn't matter how pointless my life is once it's over. It has meaning here and now, in a sense. Interesting... you may have just done me one of the greatest services anyone ever has. Or maybe it's a passing thought, either way, thank you :)
Thank you, as well. I mentioned to you before that I'm trying to develop ways of communicating these ideas. Ideas which I simply cannot take any kind of credit for. Standing upon the shoulders of giants, indeed.
I know I can't be sure, it's built-in to what I said. Religions have simply rigged the game against themselves. They cannot be the exclusive source of all truth they claim to be and exist in a universe where certain questions cannot be answered using language or even at all. QED.
God I wish you were a woman... you have one of the greatest living minds I've ever known. It's so sexy. Why must everyone so awesome be so very dead :'(
Just please remember that no mind is solely of its own making. Myriad minds, many having died thousands of years ago, have helped program my own. You yourself have contributed to its constant reworking, as I try to find a way to communicate ideas that might help wake us up. I thank you for the compliment, I refuse to allow my Self to build something out of it, and I thank you again for reading with an open mind :) Namaste, or something.
BTW, if you haven't read much Sam Harris and some of what I'm saying is switching things on for you...pick up some Harris. My favorite part of reading Harris is that the harder you try to disagree with him, the more your thinking changes. Whether or not I agree with all his conclusions, his writing has significantly changed the way I think for the better.
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Lol, and of course no one cares, I will keep to my own personal research with my microscope, and try to find best ways to rid my body of the poisons my government has sprayed all over me. You may keep believing what I am saying has nothing to do with reality and I am just a crazy ass conspiracy nut, that is fine, I am not aiming to convince. And of course no one checks the picture I talked about, that is how the hivemind works, Lol all you sheep just babbling about what if this and what if that. I will continue my own research and try to open peoples minds more, but It is very hard when the elite have people's eyes so glued shut, and no I am not talking about physical eyeballs for all you people in highly populated areas with too much flouride in yo brains lol.
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Lol, and of course no one cares, I will keep to my own personal research with my microscope [...] *nonsense*
You do that, and please let us know when you have even the slightest amount of real data to support your claims. Until that time, however, it is not unreasonable for me or others to understand you as being delusional. I am interested in knowing more, but chasing your claims as stated is clearly a waste of my limited time and attention.
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Religion is like a bad tv show, lots of people care for it, dont make it any better.
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I already have "real" data. I have skin cell samples that are completely entwined with hundreds of nano fibers. They are bright blue, red, and clear. Recent research has shown that the makeup of these unknown "fibers" causes the Iron in our blood(usually Fe+2) to change to the Fe+3 version, which is horribly innefficient at absorbing oxygen. Lol, I have plenty of scientifically proven data, and tons of self seen data. I do not need to inform you all of my research, As I am trying vary hard to figure out a way to rid my body of these synthetic genetically modified nanobots (and yes that is what they are, Scientists working on this project have found no other way to describe them) I do not need to waste my time trying to convince people who dont even own fucking microscopes that they even exist. There is plenty of "real" data all around you, one must simply open there eyes...
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I already have "real" data. I have skin cell samples that are completely entwined with hundreds of nano fibers. They are bright blue, red, and clear. Recent research has shown that the makeup of these unknown "fibers" causes the Iron in our blood(usually Fe+2) to change to the Fe+3 version, which is horribly innefficient at absorbing oxygen. Lol, I have plenty of scientifically proven data, and tons of self seen data. I do not need to inform you all of my research, As I am trying vary hard to figure out a way to rid my body of these synthetic genetically modified nanobots (and yes that is what they are, Scientists working on this project have found no other way to describe them) I do not need to waste my time trying to convince people who dont even own fucking microscopes that they even exist. There is plenty of "real" data all around you, one must simply open there eyes...
[citation needed]
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Check out carnicominstitute.org, they are the only real organization doing any research in this, I only know what I can see in my microscope, but their latest research with their infrared spectrophotometer is pretty interesting, lol although you will probably go to the site and say you dont understand or something, because there is TONS of info there, this last report was from May 16, so it is pretty interesting. And for your info they have run the nano fibers in question through one of those machines the FBI uses to identify different kinds of fibers and their specific manufacturers at crime scenes, and there was no match at all, hmm that is interesting, they catalog EVERY KNOWN SYNTHETIC FIBER, yet these nano filiments do not match anything ever made by any country. Although I do not expect many of you to fully comprehend the information provided, It is worth checking out. It does feel like shit to know about this stuff though, and barely have a clue as to how to fix it. But this is my reality whether it is yours or not, EVERYONE has the fibers in them, so it effects us all. And again, these synthetic bio-nano filament networks are only a small piece of the big picture...
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Agreed.
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Check out carnicominstitute.org, they are the only real organization doing any research in this, I only know what I can see in my microscope, but their latest research with their infrared spectrophotometer is pretty interesting, lol although you will probably go to the site and say you dont understand or something, because there is TONS of info there, this last report was from May 16, so it is pretty interesting. And for your info they have run the nano fibers in question through one of those machines the FBI uses to identify different kinds of fibers and their specific manufacturers at crime scenes, and there was no match at all, hmm that is interesting, they catalog EVERY KNOWN SYNTHETIC FIBER, yet these nano filiments do not match anything ever made by any country. Although I do not expect many of you to fully comprehend the information provided, It is worth checking out. It does feel like shit to know about this stuff though, and barely have a clue as to how to fix it. But this is my reality whether it is yours or not, EVERYONE has the fibers in them, so it effects us all. And again, these synthetic bio-nano filament networks are only a small piece of the big picture...
1. There is nothing on this website that even begins to suggest anything of the outrageous things you have claimed belief in so far
2. Unexplained phenomena do not anything more than "this exists and we don't understand it yet". It is not a free pass to just make shit up.
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It kinda pisses me off that some people have to take such a preachy and oppositional approach to religion.
Maybe it's just because I've been lucky enough to grow up in a fairly secular society, and even though I went to a religious school we were never forced to believe in something that we didn't need to.
It just annoys me so much when you get so many arrogant atheists who think they're better just because they have a different opinion.
I'm atheist but I agree with you here. Those kinds of atheists either don't know or are ignoring the fact that all human beings are hardwired to believe everything we are told.
It has been scientifically shown by neuroscientists like Sam Harris amongst others that we instantly believe everything that we hear. Then we go through a process where we critically evaluate and may decide to disbelieve. However we only have a sort window of opportunity to do this and if we are distracted before we can disbelieve the belief becomes entrenched in our brains and becomes harder to disbelieve.
Basically the longer we hold on to a belief the harder it is for the brain to let it go. Atheists brains are hardwired the same as everybody else so there no need for any of us to feel superior to believers. It's not a matter of reason or intelligence it's a question of biology.
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Quote from Abitpeckish:
"1. There is nothing on this website that even begins to suggest anything of the outrageous things you have claimed belief in so far
2. Unexplained phenomena do not anything more than "this exists and we don't understand it yet". It is not a free pass to just make shit up."
Wow are you fucking serious?? You are from America arent you? Maybe drinking from a City water source huh? lol everyone really is fucking blind,
CLEARNET ALERT: http://www.carnicominstitute.org/articles/a_working_hypothesis.htm
-Right there is LOADS of scientific research DEDICATED SOLELY TO THE RESEARCH OF THESE FIBERS.
This was pulled directly from the site explaining their research:
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SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF
ENVIRONMENTAL FILAMENTS
What this Study is about:
The Carnicom Institute is conducting a scientific study for the purpose of identifying measureable characteristics of a unique and specific form of an environmental filament. This study will involve a uniform collection of samples under defined protocols. This filament form is unique in many respects, including its visual characteristics, microscopic size, elastic properties, resistance to chemical decomposition, internal structure(s), and an unusual combination of external and internal form.
filaments filaments wrapped on a stick
Two examples of the filament material
How to Participate and Submit Samples
This filament material has been observed and recorded on numerous occasions for more than a decade in airborne form, and at ground level. All evidence points to a strong correlation between the existence of this material and on going geoengineering/ bioengineering projects. As this material poses potential risks, it is essential that this filament type be properly analyzed and identified to assess its impact upon our environment and health. There has also been a failure of governmental agencies to properly and thoroughly analyze this material, even upon repeated request.
The Carnicom Institute is conducting preliminary studies of the properties of filament samples. To our knowledge, this is the first study applied to this filament form collected under uniform and defined conditions. At this time, our research is conditional upon available resources and equipment. Our current capabilities include visual and microscopic analysis and comparison, qualitative chemical testing, and limited spectroscopic analysis.
The Institute desires to complete a thorough scientific analysis of this material, including chemical and biological composition in detail. However, these tests will require additional sophisticated equipment, methods, resources, supplies, and trained personnel at cost.
Samples used in this research are to be provided by the general public, so your participation in this project is vital. Protocols and procedures for the collection of samples are described in detail. (see PROTOCOLS AND PROCEDURES FOR THE COLLECTION OF ENVIRONMENTAL FILAMENT SAMPLES). Data compiled from this research will be available to the public on our web site.
This project is dependent upon public funding for its conduct and completion. The success and future progress of this endeavor are completely dependent upon your involvement and donations. Currently, our limited resources prevent us from reporting the specific analysis of any one sample. This is a very important study that affects all of us. To contribute financially to support this project and to broaden our capability to serve the public, please make a donation at carnicominstitute.org. Thank you.
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I could post more tidbits of info, but I would much rather people investigate for themselves if they want.
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Oh yes and a good video that brings a lot of peices of info together is "What are they spraying" I think thats what its called, and oh yeah I never really addressed this, but I NEVER just make shit up, or wait? am i just high on crack, sitting here completely fabricating an entire fake story about nanobots for the all fucks sake of arousing a little laugh? well goddam makes total sense for me to make up my own little stories in my head and stuff, how logical
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First of all, religious is not an easy topic to understand. It is even hard to grasp what people call a religion. The more and deeply you try to understand the phenomena, the more it evades you IMO.
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First of all, religious is not an easy topic to understand. It is even hard to grasp what people call a religion. The more and deeply you try to understand the phenomena, the more it evades you IMO.
This is actually not as true as you believe it to be. There's a very large difference between "believes in a specific god/pantheon that has a specific canon that makes specific claims" and "experiences spirituality". It's the former that I speak of when I say "religion" or "religious", and it's in that context that this thread exists. When you broaden the definition of "religious", you will be misunderstood by nearly everyone you speak to about it, which is just another way of saying you're confusing yourself.
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Religion has one upside to it. It gives people a sense of well being and community. I don't know of a single religion that does this without all the negative bullshit that comes with it. Although I guess a religion that is about well being and community without a dogmatic sense of right and wrong is more like a social institution - say big brothers and sisters.
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Religion has one upside to it. It gives people a sense of well being and community. I don't know of a single religion that does this without all the negative bullshit that comes with it. Although I guess a religion that is about well being and community without a dogmatic sense of right and wrong is more like a social institution - say big brothers and sisters.
We can achieve this without the baggage that comes along with these Iron Age philosophies. Step 1: try.
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Religion has one upside to it. It gives people a sense of well being and community. I don't know of a single religion that does this without all the negative bullshit that comes with it. Although I guess a religion that is about well being and community without a dogmatic sense of right and wrong is more like a social institution - say big brothers and sisters.
We can achieve this without the baggage that comes along with these Iron Age philosophies. Step 1: try.
There are a lot of organizations that are incredibly successful and do amazing things for people. I used to go to church with my significant other and I would cringe every time I saw a check for $50+ in the offering plate. Donate that money to habitats for humanity. Maybe instead of focusing on setting up secure ways to get drugs, we should be out helping people. But then we wouldn't have SR to get drugs from. Damn.
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German Philosopher, and noted athiest Karl Marx said:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
Though my beliefs tend toward the agnostic, if religion gives some people hope, or a warm fuzzy feeling, I see no reason to chastise them for it. As long as they don't feel the need to incessantly jam their beliefs down others' throats.
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The qualm I have with religion is all of the resources it wastes. Imagine: everyone spends one hour helping those less fortunate ever week instead of spending an hour listening about god and jesus and salvation. I'm all for the warm fuzzy feeling, but people should get that from real opium. Or community service. Or both would be ideal.
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German Philosopher, and noted athiest Karl Marx said:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
Though my beliefs tend toward the agnostic, if religion gives some people hope, or a warm fuzzy feeling, I see no reason to chastise them for it. As long as they don't feel the need to incessantly jam their beliefs down others' throats.
I know this thread is long, but I encourage you to read through it. Quotes like these are not useful demonstrations of what discarding religion would mean, and you'll get what I'm talking about as you absorb the discussion that has taken place over the course of this thread. If you can simply weigh the sides against each other as rationally as possible, I'm confident you'll not only find yourself beyond the threshold of religious belief, but it's possible you'll find and transform your Self.
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German Philosopher, and noted athiest Karl Marx said:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
Though my beliefs tend toward the agnostic, if religion gives some people hope, or a warm fuzzy feeling, I see no reason to chastise them for it. As long as they don't feel the need to incessantly jam their beliefs down others' throats.
I know this thread is long, but I encourage you to read through it. Quotes like these are not useful demonstrations of what discarding religion would mean, and you'll get what I'm talking about as you absorb the discussion that has taken place over the course of this thread. If you can simply weigh the sides against each other as rationally as possible, I'm confident you'll not only find yourself beyond the threshold of religious belief, but it's possible you'll find and transform your Self.
At first you had my curiosity, now you have my attention.
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I know this thread is long, but I encourage you to read through it.
Guilty as charged. I'll have a read.
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Fuck religion! Meditate and discover things for yourself as an individual, that is the true way =) And if you feel compelled, read ALL the religious books and observe the meanings within them completely objectively, compare them. Interpret these religious artifacts as a scholar, not a dedicated follower, although most religions have been bent way out of proportion in past couple of thousands of years, there are things that can be learned from each one. Create your own spiritual path, devoted to humanity and nature, and I can almost guarantee you will not go wrong =)
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Quoting Karl Marx?
The man who gave us Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot and Chavez?
Hell of a guy.
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At least Chavez was against the "Global Elites" lol
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Quoting Karl Marx?
Generally the people who quote Karl Marx in discussions like this are trying to imply that irreligion is inherently and inexorably dangerous. It's a weak argument, to say the least.
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I do not think that is what Duty Free had in mind at all?? Lol you just like talking dont you? You love to hear yourself pronounce those large vocabb words in your head? lol
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I do not think that is what Duty Free had in mind at all?? Lol you just like talking dont you? You love to hear yourself pronounce those large vocabb words in your head? lol
It might have been, it might not have been. The point is that while Karl Marx's comment is generically true, it is a potentially dangerous idea to organize one's thoughts and actions around. As humanity found out.
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A thread about religion, on SR? I have GOT to check this out :D
BTW: Religion was an OK first attempt to try and explain the world around us. But we have moved on since then... Well most of the world has. The middle part of the U.S fucks up the statistics.
Damn I am glad I live in a country that is +80% non-beleivers. Where reason triumphs.
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Generally the people who quote Karl Marx in discussions like this are trying to imply that irreligion is inherently and inexorably dangerous. It's a weak argument, to say the least.
No. You're reading way too much into it. I quoted the guy because I like the quote, not the man, or any of his ideals. Maybe I should have just paraphrased.
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No. You're reading way too much into it. I quoted the guy because I like the quote, not the man, or any of his ideals. Maybe I should have just paraphrased.
I figured that wasn't your intent. Either way you look at it, the quote is problematic :)
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Lol, there you go again... Go invent a new vaccine or something geesh
Is it not obvious that I'm trialling vaccines for the highly contagious plague of unreason that will ultimately cause our premature extinction?
I love you
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Lol, I can see where he is coming from with the "opium of the people", but not saying Karl Marx did anything good, and I think that is what I was trying to get at, you are reading into everything too much, A lot of things, lol I cant say for sure cause I probably only read half of this forum if that even lol
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Lol, I can see where he is coming from with the "opium of the people", but not saying Karl Marx did anything good, and I think that is what I was trying to get at, you are reading into everything too much, A lot of things, lol I cant say for sure cause I probably only read half of this forum if that even lol
This is going to be a little... caustic, and I apologize for that. For context, I've been told quite a bit lately that I "read too much into things." That said, if you can't keep up with someone's mind and how it works, please: at the very least refrain from placing the blame on them. If they see more in a statement than was intended by the stater, it does not make them irrational or illogical. Mistaken, perhaps, but that aside all it really means is that their mind is digesting more than your own happened to produce.
I don't see that as a fault of either mind. Simply an incompatibility.
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so much war and suffering because of religion its really sad
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I just don't understand any longer how people can wake up everyday and doubt that there is something holding this entire universe together. This is the problem with the world today. People believe they are so smart and intellectual. No matter how smart you think you are, guess what, someone/thing is smarter. Mankind needs to humble their arrogant ways and start being thankful for such an incredible blessing that we all call Life. Please don't get me wrong, this is not an angry rant. I think its just fine to raise questions about God, because he gave us that ability. He created us in his own image and gave us the same powers of logic that he has. God wants you to ask questions, how else will you learn and eventually find him as the answer to all those questions. God is not something you find in the heavens. God is right in front of your eyes. He is your eyes. He is your ups, and your downs, your faith and your doubt. God is you, and you are God. Two things at the same time you say? yes absolutely, and further than that, all things are God, and God is all things.
God bless you all in finding the truth, cause apparently you are at your fill with doubt!
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I wanna add something that just came to me. I find it very funny that individuals come to SR "claiming" that they are fighting propaganda in government over drugs", but then spread more propaganda about another topic. That being God. Get to know him first people, in your hearts, and then make an opinion.
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I wanna add something that just came to me. I find it very funny that individuals come to SR "claiming" that they are fighting propaganda in government over drugs, but then spread more propaganda about another topic. That being God. Get to know him first people, in your hearts, and then make an opinion.
There is no propaganda coming from this person. I'm working hard to deal exclusively in facts and logic. Please feel free to point out any flaws in my thinking or examples.
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Simply an incompatibility.
interesting
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I believe its bullshit to follow an organized religion but its ok to try and find God within yourself and the universe.
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Religion isn't dead.
And the messiah is here.
It's me.
KENNY FUCKING POWDERS
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I wanna add something that just came to me. I find it very funny that individuals come to SR "claiming" that they are fighting propaganda in government over drugs, but then spread more propaganda about another topic. That being God. Get to know him first people, in your hearts, and then make an opinion.
There is no propaganda coming from this person. I'm working hard to deal exclusively in facts and logic. Please feel free to point out any flaws in my thinking or examples.
IMO your flaw is that you are dealing "exclusively" in one thing, or things, being facts and logic. Those things are not the only things available to you. Here is an example, remember when you were a young child and you had many childish idealism about the world you lived in and then over time you replaced it with new better ideas that you deemed to be your new reality? Let me know if this makes sense to you.
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IMO your flaw is that you are dealing "exclusively" in one thing, or things, being facts and logic. Those things are not the only things available to you.
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I have no clue how to even begin to show you what's wrong with this statement. You wouldn't accept the reasoning anyway, I suppose.
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IMO your flaw is that you are dealing "exclusively" in one thing, or things, being facts and logic. Those things are not the only things available to you. Here is an example, remember when you were a young child and you had many childish idealism about the world you lived in and then over time you replaced it with new better ideas that you deemed to be your new reality? Let me know if this makes sense to you.
With all due respect[1], read the fucking thread :) Once you do so, if you still disagree you'll at least have better arguments.
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[1] It may be surprising to you, but I've found that I quite like you. You introduced the SealTeam6 persona with foot planted firmly in mouth, but you've shown yourself to be pretty thoughtful. Whatever that's worth :)
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IMO your flaw is that you are dealing "exclusively" in one thing, or things, being facts and logic. Those things are not the only things available to you.
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I have no clue how to even begin to show you what's wrong with this statement. You wouldn't accept the reasoning anyway, I suppose.
I accept all reasoning, I said that already Self. Don't bother explaining yourself, I read many of your post and I think I know where you wanna go with your argument. You also are a strict believer in logic and facts. Guess what, everything has an opposite, and the opposite to your purely logical explanation is an illogical one, God. I embrace everything as it is, because everything leads to one in all directions. Explain to me if I am wrong about you Self!
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IMO your flaw is that you are dealing "exclusively" in one thing, or things, being facts and logic. Those things are not the only things available to you. Here is an example, remember when you were a young child and you had many childish idealism about the world you lived in and then over time you replaced it with new better ideas that you deemed to be your new reality? Let me know if this makes sense to you.
With all due respect[1], read the fucking thread :) Once you do so, if you still disagree you'll at least have better arguments.
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[1] It may be surprising to you, but I've found that I quite like you. You introduced the SealTeam6 persona with foot planted firmly in mouth, but you've shown yourself to be pretty thoughtful. Whatever that's worth :)
I don't read fluff, I get straight to the meat and potatoes of the topic. If I am wrong I apologize. If I am mistaken, please correct me!
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[1] It may be surprising to you, but I've found that I quite like you. You introduced the SealTeam6 persona with foot planted firmly in mouth, but you've shown yourself to be pretty thoughtful. Whatever that's worth :)
Oh and thanks, I really appreciate the compliment. I love misdirection, I'm on this forum a lot, and I like to have fun with it. I know, I'm sick in the head!
P.S. I like you as well :)
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IMO your flaw is that you are dealing "exclusively" in one thing, or things, being facts and logic. Those things are not the only things available to you.
[a few posts go by...]
I don't read fluff, I get straight to the meat and potatoes of the topic. If I am wrong I apologize. If I am mistaken, please correct me!
Cognitive dissonance.
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IMO your flaw is that you are dealing "exclusively" in one thing, or things, being facts and logic. Those things are not the only things available to you.
[a few posts go by...]
I don't read fluff, I get straight to the meat and potatoes of the topic. If I am wrong I apologize. If I am mistaken, please correct me!
Cognitive dissonance.
Of course, this is my point. I have two answers for every question. Logical and Illogical. Science and God. I have married the two and also placed my self has best man at the wedding!
P.S. u cut and pasted my words and took them out of context. Are you a news anchor somewhere?
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IMO your flaw is that you are dealing "exclusively" in one thing, or things, being facts and logic. Those things are not the only things available to you.
[a few posts go by...]
I don't read fluff, I get straight to the meat and potatoes of the topic. If I am wrong I apologize. If I am mistaken, please correct me!
Cognitive dissonance.
Of course, this is my point. I have two answers for every question. Logical and Illogical. Science and God. I have married the two and also placed my self has best man at the wedding!
P.S. u cut and pasted my words and took them out of context. Are you a news anchor somewhere?
Tell me, how often does illogical thinking lead to the truth? Provide an example. I'll wait.
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I accept all reasoning, I said that already Self. Don't bother explaining yourself, I read many of your post and I think I know where you wanna go with your argument. You also are a strict believer in logic and facts. Guess what, everything has an opposite, and the opposite to your purely logical explanation is an illogical one, God. I embrace everything as it is, because everything leads to one in all directions. Explain to me if I am wrong about you Self!
In the past several posts you have, in effect, stated that you not only accept and believe what is true, but also what is not true. Simultaneously. That's precisely why I said you wouldn't accept the reasoning. If you don't see what the problem with that is, then there's very little left for me to explain. For what it's worth, I wish you well.
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I accept all reasoning, I said that already Self. Don't bother explaining yourself, I read many of your post and I think I know where you wanna go with your argument. You also are a strict believer in logic and facts. Guess what, everything has an opposite, and the opposite to your purely logical explanation is an illogical one, God. I embrace everything as it is, because everything leads to one in all directions. Explain to me if I am wrong about you Self!
In the past several posts you have, in effect, stated that you not only accept and believe what is true, but also what is not true. Simultaneously. That's precisely why I said you wouldn't accept the reasoning. If you don't see what the problem with that is, then there's very little left for me to explain. For what it's worth, I wish you well.
Sigh, I've missed you SS. :)
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I accept all reasoning, I said that already Self. Don't bother explaining yourself, I read many of your post and I think I know where you wanna go with your argument. You also are a strict believer in logic and facts. Guess what, everything has an opposite, and the opposite to your purely logical explanation is an illogical one, God. I embrace everything as it is, because everything leads to one in all directions. Explain to me if I am wrong about you Self!
In the past several posts you have, in effect, stated that you not only accept and believe what is true, but also what is not true. Simultaneously. That's precisely why I said you wouldn't accept the reasoning. If you don't see what the problem with that is, then there's very little left for me to explain. For what it's worth, I wish you well.
Exactly. It's all the same, it's all life. I do not need you to wish me well, but I do at the same time. We are all connected. You believe everything your human mind has deemed to be true, so far. I believe in all things! You have some catching up to do. Ill wait!
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Exactly. It's all the same, it's all life. I do not need you to wish me well, but I do at the same time. We are all connected. You believe everything your human mind has deemed to be true, so far. I believe in all things! You have some catching up to do. Ill wait!
Which is no different than saying you believe in nothing at all. You have failed to earn a voice in the discussion of how to go about achieving the least possible suffering for all conscious beings. We simply cannot afford to give attention to nonsense like this anymore. If you can't commit to being reasonable, your opinion holds no weight.
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Exactly. It's all the same, it's all life. I do not need you to wish me well, but I do at the same time. We are all connected. You believe everything your human mind has deemed to be true, so far. I believe in all things! You have some catching up to do. Ill wait!
Which is no different than saying you believe in nothing at all. You have failed to earn a voice in the discussion of how to go about achieving the least possible suffering for all conscious beings. We simply cannot afford to give attention to nonsense like this anymore. If you can't commit to being reasonable, your opinion holds no weight.
My opinion may be too strong a weight for you to carry!
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Lol I am out of this thread for good this time, this thread be ridunkuless son
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Three things resemble each other: a bright sword which rusts from long staying in the scabbard, bright water which stinks from long standing,and wisdom which is dead from long disuse.
Three things it is everyone's duty to do: listen humbly, answer discreetly, and judge kindly.
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, and knowledge.
Just my 3 cents
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Three things resemble each other: a bright sword which rusts from long staying in the scabbard, bright water which stinks from long standing,and wisdom which is dead from long disuse.
Three things it is everyone's duty to do: listen humbly, answer discreetly, and judge kindly.
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, and knowledge.
Just my 3 cents
My fav three things: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit!
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im glad that you're able to find happiness in that. Awen guides us all on the path to enlightenment one way or another :)
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im glad that you're able to find happiness in that. Awen guides us all on the path to enlightenment one way or another :)
More than happiness, eternal bliss. That trinity actually goes very deep, I find that it relates to family life very well. For example if you look at the families that are missing any part of that trinity, especially the father, you see the same things occurring in all of them.
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tldr
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tldr
Insightful.
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Here...have some 50 spam
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:(
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;)
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yeah I have to agree, I most religious people have never seen death. that's why they're still religious. fair enough being religious after the death of a loved one for a short while but that's just the denial phase. it's a nice thought having your loved ones waiting for you but that wears off when you realise you're having traumatic flash backs of them dying a slow, but horrible death. I'm new to atheism and I find I'm much more tolerant of everything. I used to be racist when I didn't even realise I was. I feel liberated.
I have no idea why I was even a Christian when I was a feminist and a believer in marriage equality. I told myself so many lies to make up for the hatred in that bloody book!
everyone should just listen to the wise lyrics of Tim Minchin Lol xx
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Well not all religion are the same.
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Well not all religion are the same.
And around we go. You already said this in this thread, and your attempts were thoroughly dismantled. Good to see you, though, jundullahi :)
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Well its good so see you to I sepose. BTW I saw a post of yours on youtube.
Still I might be that some might consider my believe dismantled.
Yet you cannot deny that all religion are the same.
By know at least the ten dents of a couple religion you must conclude that.
Not all religion are the same.
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All opinion is not only obsolete, it's bogus.
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Personally I think the only form of religion you could even begin to argue for is deism, and you cannot even bridge the gap between the start of the universe and that creator(s) yet.
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meh
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allah will strike you down
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allah will strike you down
Only if you're already poor, uneducated, and/or brainwashed. Besides, wasn't Aisha a Muslim? I don't think that turned out so great for her childhood.