Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: DMTisinME on February 21, 2013, 04:46 pm
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I am sick of all the limitations on buying coins and the fee's so I am thinking of using a method which requires a bank account and verification, but has zero fee's and very high transaction limits, not to mention hardly any driving ever.
Here's my understanding of it: I already know that if they wanted to they could trace you back to the BTC transaction but can't really tell what you spent it on. I mean worst case they get a subpoena to see where you sent you funds, they see a SR address (I don't know how they could tell it was one) but not everything on SR is against the law. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is perfectly legal to log into SR and browse and even buy certain legal items. Or would they still be able to assume some sort of tax evasion?
Anyway my real question is if I do and continue to buy BTC in my name, can they actually prove that I spent them on anything illegal? Can they prove I spent them at all? I could just say I sent them to other wallets for my paranoid security, but would they ever force me to prove that? This is all one in a million, but I want to be sure before putting my name out there.
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I would also like to know about this.. . I'll watch this thread for a while for answers . .
I've been doing it for quite some time now without any problems. Same reasons you mentioned.
I would guess that if they found any secondary evidence (shipping , confiscated package, etc ). They would us your banking bitcoin as the nail in the coffin to link you to the crime.
I guess there would be a limt on what the law is willing to spend on a case to investigate it. If your buys are small then you wouldn't be worth the cost to investigate and hand out warrants to banks and exchanges.
*****important:
The US and other countries are working on legislation and laws for bit coins as we speak. Some new rules would be that exchanges have to keep records of all coin purchases and who bought them and ask for ID. The law will have access to this information as well as the tax man.
My fear is that past data and records on file from exchanges and banks will become a part of the new legation and reveal all your past sr purchases. Yikes.
For sure though, bit coins will be treated like stocks and require some ID at some point. We are all at the mercy of whatever these new laws will become. Yu can bet governments will just pass bit coin laws to quietly shut SAr down. It's cheaper and easier this way. Why call the DEA to investigate when you can create restrictions around bit coins in your country? G5 nations will be the first to have las around bit coins. The. There will be safe haven nations that still allow free trading of coins like Cayman Islands sort of thing. Then scams galore as people struggle to locate bit coins over seas . More fees too.
Mark my words. Bit coins are becoming regulated.
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Mark my words. Bit coins are becoming regulated.
Very scary to think about. I wonder what will happen to SR once BTC transactions are tied to individuals. I'm sure there's already a honeypot of transactions
Are bitcoins widely used for other activities other than SR?
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Anyway my real question is if I do and continue to buy BTC in my name, can they actually prove that I spent them on anything illegal? Can they prove I spent them at all? I could just say I sent them to other wallets for my paranoid security, but would they ever force me to prove that? This is all one in a million, but I want to be sure before putting my name out there.
It's hard to have anonymity at every step of the BTC chain. When you make your deposit, you might do so in view of cameras that time/date stamp your transaction. That can be compared to a ZipZap (for example) record which could be acquired by subpoena. So, that address you send it to can be proven to be yours. This is why it's a good idea to switch up addresses. When you actually make purchases, SR adds in some anonymity there, so it'd be hard to track what you purchased.
But, if you consistently use a service like Mt. Gox, that keeps a record of your photo ID and positively IDs you, then it's super easy for LE to subpoena one record and see how much money you've been spending in BTCs. That, by itself, is not damning. But, it's a lot. Put together with evidence from somewhere else (like, your computer, or your home), it may be enough to convict you.
Stay hidden, as much as you can.
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this is how the us government is going to try and shut down silk road. i was reading online dont remember the site. the us wants to outlaw bitcoins BECAUSE THEY ARE A FORM OF MONEY LAUNDERING.
they are not going to shut down silkroad computer wise but when they make bitcoins illegal what is going to happen to SR
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If the US somehow made BTC illegal to "possess" (that'd be a fun one to define), it would just make them harder to buy. I mean, drugs are illegal, and they're fairly well available, wouldn't you say?
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no that is not the same thing. If a vendor sells weed for bitcoin where is he going to cash them at. ok vendor exchanges bitcoin for cash. ok where is the next guy goung to cash his bitcoin. my
point is the guy at the end of the line will be stuck with bitcoins. remember vendors have to be able to cash therte bitcoins on a egular basis to by more product. if bitcoin becomes illegal in the US it will make that very hard to do. LONG LIVE SILK ROAD ps i hope forever
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This is really problematic to answer. It depends entirely on how much risk you personally feel is acceptable. Bitcoins are pretty hot right now. I mean even moreso than usual. They're about to break $30; it's almost getting out of control. They've increased by 100% in like 60 days -- that's fucking outrageous. Anyone who looks at that is going to see possible bubble, but also a possible way of making incredible profits in a short time.
If you are not buying hundreds or thousands of dollars of bitcoins on a very regular basis, I personally feel that you are safe. If you are a vendor who is cashing out, that's different. You don't want to use a single service to cash out thousands of dollars even infrequently. That's just blatantly obvious, and even a child could write an automated program to flag such accounts for further investigation.
Basically whether it's "safe" or not depends entirely on how much business you're doing. What you're talking about means that they CAN find you, rather easily in fact, if they see a reason to. So essentially it comes down to whether or not they have a reason to. Make a large purchase in one lump sum and you look like somebody investing. Make a small purchase regularly, and you look like somebody who's not investing, but who's using them. There still aren't that many things to use them for -- so you look a little more suspicious, but still not all that worth targeting in my mind. Buy large amounts at regular intervals, and you start looking like you're worth targeting.
Bottom line: you should be fine if you consider slightly increased risk worth the convenience. As a disclaimer, this is all in my head. I have very little actual evidence to back me up here, so take my advice for what it's worth. The fact is that if you do this, they can find you with ease. The question is whether or not they give a fuck about you personally.
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It's hard to have anonymity at every step of the BTC chain.
Put together with evidence from somewhere else (like, your computer, or your home), it may be enough to convict you.
Stay hidden, as much as you can.
To be clear I would be buying them in my name, and tumbling the coins through a few wallets, keeping them on a final one separate from SR, then sending them to another which sends them to SR. Can buying coins really get them access to shit on my computer at home? I don't stash any drugs at my house, so good luck in that aspect. I'll have to start wiping it or maybe bring a tor flash drive to a "legal" friend's house and only use their computer. Cause they can't get a warrant for me under property I don't own, right?
If you are not buying hundreds or thousands of dollars of bitcoins on a very regular basis, I personally feel that you are safe.
Usually $3,000 a month max.
Make a large purchase in one lump sum and you look like somebody investing.
I like this idea. I'd probably start just making one big buy a month and hopefully it'd turn into a decent investment. I can only see bitcoins climbing and plummeting, I don't think they'll do much in between.
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Holy shit with all the speculation that goes on in these threads why do they even need to enforce the law, you all are giving them powers they could only dream of.
Were not dealing with the fucking gestapo here, they dont just suspect you of something and then take you out back and shoot you, they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt as to what you are doing. No, there is no such thing as an 'SR address', a wallet is a wallet is a wallet, and SR has its own built in tumbler (different from a mixer like bitcoinfog which is more effective, as it mixes together a bunch of different transaction instead of just routes one through a number of different temp wallets) which makes figuring out who sent the coins, in the instance that you bought from a DEA vendor, a little harder. But then again they would have your name and address by that point so now we are just talking about building correlating evidence, that is, did YOU order the package or can you deny that you did, and if they got no money trail then they cant prove shit.
Now are you all beginning to see why SR has and will continue to exist? But no, keep on building up the boogyman and turning off potential buyers, you're doing all their dirty work for them.
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I don't know much about this subject so you can probably ignore this lol.
I think the government is a long ways off from regulating bitcoins in any way. And if they did I'm sure there would be a huge community of people that would find their way around it. If Tor was comprimised and SR was taken out we would learn from those mistakes and exploits and build a new platform which would be more secure and robust. Wash, rinse, and repeat. The classic cat and mouse game. Seems to me that no matter how many government agencies working together could never control the digital world. The resources of the people around the world is no match for all the government agencies put together. Look at piracy of digital goods. I think more harm is done to the economy and tax évasion through piracy than SR or bitcoin has, and they haven't/can't do shit about that.
Anyways thats my benzo induced ramble 8)
Long live Tor, BTC, SR
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Holy shit with all the speculation that goes on in these threads why do they even need to enforce the law, you all are giving them powers they could only dream of.
You are correct, I was simply asking a hypotheical 1 in a million type scenario. I do not think the law enforcement has anywhere near the time and manpower to search through records for all of SR and bitcoins, especially for the NOTHING they'd realistically get out of it. It's not worth it. I'm not sure, but I don't think ANY local law enforcement has an online division. I'll start worrying when the DEA creates a bitcoin/SR branch, and even then....
I don't know much about this subject so you can probably ignore this lol.
I think the government is a long ways off from regulating bitcoins in any way.
Agreed. And even if they do I suspect that they could only regulate it so that you MUST give ID for every purchase. Big deal. Im sure that'd make the value of the coin drop a little but it's still an ANONYMOUS currency. People who weren't using them for anything illegal would sell them to people who would, without asking for ID, like some of the btc vendors on SR we already have.
Long live Tor, BTC, SR
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If you're buying large amounts of bitcoin then there's a possibility that it might get looked into at some point, that is if they were all ready looking at the accounts used by the company you're purchasing coins from. They can't really trace your coins or the like but if you're a big btc buyer and you're using them to purchase drugs, and they're taking a look at you...
There's no answer that I can really give you.
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If you're buying large amounts of bitcoin then there's a possibility that it might get looked into at some point, that is if they were all ready looking at the accounts used by the company you're purchasing coins from. They can't really trace your coins or the like but if you're a big btc buyer and you're using them to purchase drugs, and they're taking a look at you...
There's no answer that I can really give you.
I understand completely. This is the sort of thing that no one can give a real answer on, only speculation.
But, ok, frame it this way. How much would you consider a large amount? Large enough to attract the wrong sort of attention? I mean, if you are really using bitcoins as an investment, I see no reason why you would use small investments, and if you are doing nothing illegal, as you would claim, you shouldn't worry about your named attached to a deposit. But, then again, anyone on this forum isn't using them JUST for an investment.
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Yeah the same thing applies, it's just speculative and what you feel comfortable with.
If I made my living as a dealer getting my stuff on SR then I'd try to get coins discretely or anonymously, if I had an expensive habit or I was buying for friends + minor dealing regularly then I might do the same. If you're only spending a few hundred a month then maybe you don't need to think about it, unless you need to be careful for other reasons (certain sort of job, parole, etc).
Sorry dude. It's just an impossible thing to answer, even if you said exactly who you are and how you spend here it'd still be down to how you feel. I think you know enough to make your own decision.
One thing I'll add is that the easier and more open methods of buying coins are often the companies who do the most business and have people interested in the legal side of btc using them. In my personal experience I am happy to buy btc from blockchain or mt. gox, but I wouldn't, and indeed haven't, used sr/darknet sellers who take bank transfers and give better prices - and not for fear of being ripped off.
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If you are not buying hundreds or thousands of dollars of bitcoins on a very regular basis, I personally feel that you are safe. If you are a vendor who is cashing out, that's different. You don't want to use a single service to cash out thousands of dollars even infrequently. That's just blatantly obvious, and even a child could write an automated program to flag such accounts for further investigation.
Basically whether it's "safe" or not depends entirely on how much business you're doing. What you're talking about means that they CAN find you, rather easily in fact, if they see a reason to. So essentially it comes down to whether or not they have a reason to. Make a large purchase in one lump sum and you look like somebody investing. Make a small purchase regularly, and you look like somebody who's not investing, but who's using them. There still aren't that many things to use them for -- so you look a little more suspicious, but still not all that worth targeting in my mind. Buy large amounts at regular intervals, and you start looking like you're worth targeting.
There are definitely many ways to cash out BTC, and those methods shouldn't be published on a public forum. Send me a PM, and I can point you in the right direction.
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I don't see how it's a big deal to buy them in your own name. However, I'd STRONGLY recommend throwing the coins through a tumbler like bitcoin fog before transferring them to your silk road address.
Have a viable alibi for why you purchased the bit coins, though. Like, internet porn you didn't want showing up on your bank statement or something.
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I figured it would only be a matter of time before the government came after its cut or outlawed bitcoins completely.
I know people think it is impossible to outlaw bitcoins. But many states have made it just about impossible to use a credit card or bank account (check or wire transfer) to purchase tobacco or lottery tickets. A similar strategy could be used to apply to bit coins. So it is possible to do.
However, a lot of people do invest in bit coins as well. All we can do is wait to see how things play out.
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the government can't outlaw bitcoins.
Legislatively, it would be extremely difficult to outlaw US-based bitcoin exchanges
It's more likely the government would require the use of an ID to purchase bitcoins. Which would just mean we'd have to link the exchange to our bank accounts and run the coins through a tumbler. Which, considering the price of bitinstant these days, would likely end up being cheaper.
I see no real fuss.
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I don't see how it's a big deal to buy them in your own name. However, I'd STRONGLY recommend throwing the coins through a tumbler like bitcoin fog before transferring them to your silk road address.
Have a viable alibi for why you purchased the bit coins, though. Like, internet porn you didn't want showing up on your bank statement or something.
Why tumble? Just use a new SR address for every deposit.
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Why tumble? Just use a new SR address for every deposit.
Even if you use a new SR address, it can still be linked to Silk Road.
Silk road uses deposit addresses to tumble coins within it's tumbler. Deposit enough coins into silk road, watch what addresses they get routed to within the tumbler, and it's not hard to determine the addresses used within silk road. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them.
It wouldn't be hard for a police agency to link the address you deposit into to silk road, whether or not you request a new bitcoin address.
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man people, if you want to do drugs, especially your entire life span, know that its the job risk associated with drugs that introduces potential jail time. If its gonna happen its gonna happen, aint shit you can do, except implement preventative measures of course. Some of this paranoia is outta hand lol.
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I am sick of all the limitations on buying coins and the fee's so I am thinking of using a method which requires a bank account and verification, but has zero fee's and very high transaction limits, not to mention hardly any driving ever.
Here's my understanding of it: I already know that if they wanted to they could trace you back to the BTC transaction but can't really tell what you spent it on. I mean worst case they get a subpoena to see where you sent you funds, they see a SR address (I don't know how they could tell it was one) but not everything on SR is against the law. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is perfectly legal to log into SR and browse and even buy certain legal items. Or would they still be able to assume some sort of tax evasion?
Anyway my real question is if I do and continue to buy BTC in my name, can they actually prove that I spent them on anything illegal? Can they prove I spent them at all? I could just say I sent them to other wallets for my paranoid security, but would they ever force me to prove that? This is all one in a million, but I want to be sure before putting my name out there.
No you say nothing, nothing at all and never worry about it because no they cannot prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, unless youre computer is flagged... but even then... i buy my bitcoins in cash from shops, and well i give them a bitcoin address, but it isnt my address.. dont say anything, you dont have too, dont give into cop bullshit, you dont have to do hard time before you learn that.
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No you say nothing, nothing at all and never worry about it because no they cannot prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, unless youre computer is flagged... but even then... i buy my bitcoins in cash from shops, and well i give them a bitcoin address, but it isnt my address.. dont say anything, you dont have too, dont give into cop bullshit, you dont have to do hard time before you learn that.
Well, I hope you're not actually giving your BTC address to the clerk, but otherwise I get your point. Narcs are silly, silly beasts (I'm ragging on locals, which is where I got all my experience). If they hit you with a drug warrant, they're not going to give two shits about your computer. Go steal a bunch of money on the internet, though - then they'll be after your computer, and they'll let the narcs know they saw 8-foot plants in your basement. LEA's are so compartmentalized it's amazing that anyone gets caught for anything, anymore.