Silk Road forums

Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: StrangeHands on November 12, 2012, 06:57 pm

Title: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: StrangeHands on November 12, 2012, 06:57 pm
I got my first order of pure alprazolam recently. I put 250 mg into a graduated cylinder and then filled it to the 250ml mark with PG. I put the stopper on it and a shook it until it appeared dissolved. I then put them it in 5x50ml bottles.

The next day I saw the a couple of the bottle had little white lumps at the bottom about the size of sugar grains but flatter. I am wondering if the powder "clumped" like corn starch can if you put it in hot water and thus did not dissolve.

My concern is that when pulling a 1mg dose into a pipette that one of these clumps will get sucked in and it will end up being way more that 1mg.

Does anyone know why it did not entirely dissolve? Is there a way to filter it(pg does not seem to go through a coffee filter very well)?

Anyone had any experience in mixing this stuff up?
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: SelfSovereignty on November 12, 2012, 07:09 pm
With any luck an actual chemist will be able to answer your question with more certainty, but until they get here, I'll take a stab at it: if it's pure alprazolam (as pure as you're going to get without a molecular sieve or something), and it's soluble in the solute you dumped it in, then my understanding is that the only way you'd end up with clumps on the bottom is if you supersaturated the solution.  But I think it's obvious when that's the case because it doesn't dissolve at all, it just acts as though it weren't even soluble in the substance to begin with.

So if I'm right -- and I hope I am, but it's a big if -- your clumps have to be propylene glycol and not alprazolam.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: StrangeHands on November 12, 2012, 07:52 pm
So if I'm right -- and I hope I am, but it's a big if -- your clumps have to be propylene glycol and not alprazolam.

PG is a liquid, how could it clump?
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: SelfSovereignty on November 12, 2012, 09:01 pm
Below the temperature at which PG changes phase from a solid to a liquid, I would think.

Yeah, point taken though.  I had that a little sideways.  So the solids must be impurities that aren't soluble in PG, is what I'd guess if I were asked on a gameshow.  But I'm not the one taking way more of a drug than I meant to if I'm wrong, so who cares what I'd guess on a game show really.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: StrangeHands on November 12, 2012, 10:30 pm
Below the temperature at which PG changes phase from a solid to a liquid, I would think.

PG freezes near −59 °C (−74 °F). I don't think such conditions exist in my house.

After about 24 hours those specks seem to have vanished. What is more instead of appearing cloudy like it was it is now completely clear.

I think perhaps it just took a bit of time. Looking like water now and I have tried it and it matches up with what I know 1mg to feel like. Feeling pretty good now.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: SelfSovereignty on November 12, 2012, 10:34 pm
Interesting... it seems you must be right.  That's good to know, thanks for bringing it up.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: Ben on November 13, 2012, 02:44 am
Why on earth are you trying to dissolve alprazolam in PEG in the first place? Did you even research its solubility for a range of temperatures before you did?

If you wanted to dissolve alprazolam to make dilutions and such, why not opt for a solvent that actually works such as isopropanol, methanol or even ethanol (at limited concentrations)?

The crystals you were seeing are clearly NOT the PEG solidifying (unless you left them out over night in the arctic), but the alprazolpam coming out of solution due to a poor choice of solvent.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: StrangeHands on November 13, 2012, 03:04 am
Why on earth are you trying to dissolve alprazolam in PEG in the first place? Did you even research its solubility for a range of temperatures before you did?

If you wanted to dissolve alprazolam to make dilutions and such, why not opt for a solvent that actually works such as isopropanol, methanol or even ethanol (at limited concentrations)?

The crystals you were seeing are clearly NOT the PEG solidifying (unless you left them out over night in the arctic), but the alprazolpam coming out of solution due to a poor choice of solvent.

I did plenty of research on the solubility of alprazolam and PG. If you look up the ingredients in intensol you will see they use PG too.

I have since been informed by someone who is informed in chemistry that the act of alprazolam going into solution with PG is an endothermic reaction and required the addition of energy to complete. It is cold in my house, after leaving it in my bathroom(the only heated room in my house) overnight the fragments and the haze vanished leaving a clear solution.

Thank you for your criticism but it seems a little uninformed, mixing alprazolam and PG is pretty standard practice both in commercial pharmacological products and home brews.

I have no doubt that the PG was always in liquid form but I don't think the alprazolam came out of solution, it just had not yet gone into solution. Next time I will warm the PG a bit. I know that heating it will increase the rate it absorbs water from the air but I will limit the time it is exposed.

None of the solvents you suggest are something I would want to consume with alprazolam. Isopropanol and methanol are toxic on their own, mixing ethanol with benzos can really alter the effect of the drug as they synergistically potentiate each other.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: zipstyle on November 13, 2012, 06:40 am
Just out of curiosity, was this for oral administration, or was this for use in an e-cig type apparatus?
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: StrangeHands on November 13, 2012, 03:56 pm
Just out of curiosity, was this for oral administration, or was this for use in an e-cig type apparatus?

Oral. I don't know what would happen if you inhaled alprazolam. It is meant to be eaten as far as I know.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: zipstyle on November 14, 2012, 02:23 am
Hmm, this is interesting and informative. I wasn't aware that propylene glycol was ok to ingest orally, but then again that shows how much I know about it--almost nothing lol. Glad that your experiment worked out.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: Ben on November 14, 2012, 02:39 am
Obviously the solvents i suggested are toxic on their own, but i never suggested you ingest a solution either.

If you decide to transport alprazolam in a solvent like methanol and/or chloroform, the basic idea is to blow off that solvent  under a stream of nitrogen before even considering ingestion.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: StrangeHands on November 14, 2012, 05:44 pm
Hmm, this is interesting and informative. I wasn't aware that propylene glycol was ok to ingest orally, but then again that shows how much I know about it--almost nothing lol. Glad that your experiment worked out.

Yes, you will find it in a lot of your food products. It is "GRAS" which means "generally regarded as safe" for use in food.

Obviously the solvents i suggested are toxic on their own, but i never suggested you ingest a solution either.

If you decide to transport alprazolam in a solvent like methanol and/or chloroform, the basic idea is to blow off that solvent  under a stream of nitrogen before even considering ingestion.

I should have mentioned that it was for oral consumption. It is simple to make it possible to accurately measure. Much easier to measure 1ml than 1mg.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: Ben on November 15, 2012, 01:36 am
I understand why you want to dissolve it for measuring, aliquotting and such, but what i do not understand is the choice of solvent. PEG isn't an ideal solvent to begin with, and it is also pretty pesky to evaporate off  if you need to.

As for toxicity: You can safely ingest a fair amount of it, but the again, ingesting 1 ml of methanol a day will not have any adverse effect either.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: addysfromscript on November 15, 2012, 01:44 am
It is possible that the alprazolam wasn't 100% pure. I assume you got it from oliver and I believe he claims it is 99% pure. Does it look like about 2.5 mg of precipitate?

I'd use coffee filters to get it out. Otherwise shake or warm the solution before dosing to ensure that it's fully dissolved.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: Ben on November 16, 2012, 01:36 am
Filters are tricky - they may trap quite a bit of the wanted substance as well. If you filter the solution, use the smallest practical filter, and also rinse it with the solvent you are using a couple of times.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: StrangeHands on November 16, 2012, 05:51 pm
I understand why you want to dissolve it for measuring, aliquotting and such, but what i do not understand is the choice of solvent. PEG isn't an ideal solvent to begin with, and it is also pretty pesky to evaporate off  if you need to.

I have had the opposite experience with PG, it does not evaporate but rather it pulls water from the air and increases in volume. It is hygroscopic you see. Simple solution is to keep the lid on it.

If I was laying paper or making capsules I would probably use a solvent that I could evaporate but I find the liquid solution hits you really fast. This is good because I have a family member who has bad panic attacks and this stuff will help in 2 minutes instead of 20 minutes like a pill will.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: Ben on November 17, 2012, 01:29 am
I think i meant the same thing: PEG is hard to get rid off - it doesn't evaporate at room conditions anytime soon, although it will under a stream of dry nitrogen gas without much of a problem (except time).

Being a chemist i'd probably dissolve it in chloroform to begin with. While its not a solvent you'd want to ingest or inhale, it is very easy to remove - it will readily dry off even if just exposed to ambient air at room temperature.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: Jetzam on November 17, 2012, 06:04 am
I think i meant the same thing: PEG is hard to get rid off - it doesn't evaporate at room conditions anytime soon

I'm guessing that this is what makes propylene glycol ideal for this purpose; if it was a high vapor pressure solvent, the concentration of the drug would increase as it evaporated.   That, and its stability and non-toxicity would seem to make it ideal for a liquid medium.  If it were being used in organic synthesis that would be another matter.

Learned something new here, if I ever get ahold of some in powder form I'll have to try this, and will heat it up a bit to help the solvation along.  I assume it's being measured out with a syringe or eyedropper or something like that?
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: StrangeHands on November 17, 2012, 03:51 pm
I think i meant the same thing: PEG is hard to get rid off - it doesn't evaporate at room conditions anytime soon, although it will under a stream of dry nitrogen gas without much of a problem (except time).

I see. I think I was stoned when I replied.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: asdfsquared on November 20, 2012, 06:08 am
I can't find any solubility data on alprazolam and propylene glycol. Try warming the solution in a pot of hot water, see if the solids dissolve. If so, then something in your solution cannot dissolve further and you need to add more propylene glycol. They will precipitate back out again once the solution cools, and slowly add propylene glycol until they dissolve once again.

If they don't dissolve, I would absolutely filter them out. There's really no clear way to determine if the solids are alprazolam or not, So I would filter them to be on the safe side. Screw coffee filters, they suck ass, go to a science-y store and buy some actual chemistry filters, or buy them online. They are not in any way watched or associated with drug use, you're fine to order on the clear net.

The best way to filter the solution is to get a funnel and some chemistry filter paper and fold it so that it is fluted, then put it in a funnel. Google "folding fluted filter paper". Its easier to watch a video or look at pictures than for me to explain it. Folding it in this manor will increase flow through the paper, and is standard practice in chemistry.

Then first wash the filter paper with some fresh propylene glycol, to get it wet before filtering. Then pour the solution through the wet filter, and wash the filter and filtrate again with propylene glycol, to wash the rest of the alprazolam off the filter.  but be careful not to dilute the solution too much.

250 ml is a pretty decent amount of solution, though, and might be tricky to filter in this manor. Vacuum filtration would be your best bet. You can find cheap vacuum filtration kits with a hand vacuum pump (like for bleeding brakes) on ebay for cheap, and they're very useful for other drug-related things as well.

If your feeling risky and don't feel like the hassle of filtering, decant the solution from the crystals. If you've ever drank powdered hot chocolate mix, you know how some powder always stays undissolved in the bottom of the mug, and when you're drinking the last little bit the powder stays at the bottom, and clings to the mug? That is decanting. Give it a shot. See if you can get it all out. Honestly, I'd start with that.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: StrangeHands on December 09, 2012, 09:08 pm
Thanks asdfsquared for the great post. Full of useful information. Putting clean solvent in a filter before pouring is not something I had thought of.

The clumps dissolved after being stored in a warm room overnight and never came out of solution. The mixture seems very accurate and gives me just the reaction I expect from 1mg of xanax when I take 1ml.

I think the clumps were caused because I dropped the powder on top of the liquid instead of adding the liquid to the powder. They broke down in time.

I am expecting a full gram of alprazolam soon and I am going to do something very similar.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: Thestral1 on December 13, 2012, 08:59 pm
Just out of curiosity, was this for oral administration, or was this for use in an e-cig type apparatus?

Oral. I don't know what would happen if you inhaled alprazolam. It is meant to be eaten as far as I know.

StrangeHands is correct, it's meant to be eaten (or taken sublingually, one of my preferred methods). I know this has been repeated verbatim in these threads, but for those that are new to this : do NOT inhale, i.e. snort, alprazolam unless you want to waste a lot of it. Insufflating actual xanax pills is even worse due to the added fillers. The active ingredient (the alp) isn't water soluble, so if you're doing it that way you're basically swallowing it through your nose.
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: catboss on January 01, 2013, 11:27 am
folks,

where can i buy propylene glycol on line. where did you buy yours? i found a few sites online but don;t know if they are, in fact, legit.

thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: catboss on January 01, 2013, 11:37 am
i'm getting 100mg of alprazolam and am wanting to liquify it.  i read a few posts, but am still unclear: if i want to mix, for example, 50mg of powder i would have to use 50ml of solvent to get 1mg concentration per dose? (and what is the measurement for that dose... 1 ml? )

i will mix 20ml of solvent with 20mg alprazolam powder, then i will use a syringe to squirt out 1mL which would equal 1mg concentration?

were do you suggest to buy propylene glycol?

thanks in advance for your time!
Title: Re: Mixing pure alprazolam with propylene glycol
Post by: Thestral1 on January 13, 2013, 03:09 am
You're measurements are correct. And you can buy propylene glycol on Amazon; a quart is around $15. Some pharmacies used to carry them, but I haven't looked lately. Alcohol that is at least above 91% also works - I've used both Everclear & a similar brand and they're 95%. Downside to that route is that alcohol evaporates so you'll need to keep it in an airtight container. I use little nasal spray bottles, after cleaning them out first, of course  :o