Silk Road forums
Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: kmfkewm on October 14, 2012, 11:39 am
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In poohbears locked thread someone brought up that they have not heard of many people who have had their doors kicked down and been killed by drug law enforcement agencies. Here is a small selection of such individuals for you, but in reality the list is far bigger. Of course all agents responsible must be tried for murder and executed once convicted, indeed even the politicians who have made these atrocities possible must be tried for conspiracy to commit murder and executed once convicted. However the entire DEA is complicit in these crimes, finding an agent without blood on their hands will be no easy task and finding an agent who is not guilty of kidnapping , assault and armed robbery will be impossible.
http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/drug-war-victim/
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John Adams
64 years old
Lebanon, Tennessee
October, 2000
Shot to death during a SWAT drug raid while watching TV. The house didn’t match the description on the warrant.
Rev. Jonathan Ayers
28 years old
Toccoa, Georgia
September, 2009
After meeting with a parishioner who was under surveillance by drug cops, the pastor went to a Convenience store ATM. Coming out, he was confronted by men waving guns. He didn’t know they were undercover cops, and was shot to death while driving off, fearing for his life.
Xavier Bennett
8 years old
Atlanta, Georgia
November, 1991
Xavier was accidentally shot to death by officers in a pre-dawn drug raid during a gunfight with one of Xavier’s relatives.
Delbert Bonnar
57 years old
Belpre, Ohio
October, 1998
Shot 8 times by police in drug raid. They were looking for his son.
Veronica Bowers
35 years old
Charity Bowers
7 months old
In the air over Peru
April, 2001
As part of a long-standing arrangement to stop drug shipments, U.S. government tracking provided the information for the Peruvian Air Force to mistakenly shoot down a Cessna plane carrying missionaries. Killed in the incident were Roni Bowers, a missionary with the Association of Baptists for World Evangelism, and her daughter, Charity. In 2008, a new report surfaced indicating widespread problems with the shoot-down program that had been withheld from Congress by the CIA.
Rudolfo “Rudy” Cardenas
43 years old
San Jose, California
February, 2004
Rudy was a father of five who was passing by a house targeted by narcotics officers attempting to serve a parole violation warrant and the police mistakenly thought he was the one they were there to arrest. They chased Cardenas, and he fled, apparently afraid of them (they were not uniformed). Cardenas was shot multiple times in the back.
Dorothy Duckett, 78, told the Mercury News she looked out her fifth-floor window after hearing one gunshot and saw Cardenas pleading for his life. “I watched him running with his hands in the air. He kept saying, ‘Don’t shoot. Don’t shoot,’” Duckett said. “He had absolutely nothing in his hands.”
Jose Colon
20 years old
Suffolk, New York
April, 2002
Jose was outside the house where he had come to repay a $20 debt, when a drug raid on the house commenced. He was shot in the head by SWAT.
Troy Davis
25 years old
North Richland Hills, Texas
December, 1999
During a no-knock raid to find some marijuana plants he was growing, he was shot to death in his living room. There are disputed accounts regarding whether he had a gun.
Anthony Andrew Diotaiuto
23 years old
Sunrise, Florida
August, 2005
Anthony worked two jobs to help pay for the house he lived in with his mother. He had permit for a concealed weapon because of the areas he traveled through for his night job. Sunrise police claimed that he had sold some marijuana, and because they knew he had a legal gun, decided to use SWAT. Neighbors claim that the police did not identify themselves. Police first claimed that Anthony pointed his gun at them, and later changed their story. Regardless, Anthony was dead with 10 bullets in him, and the police found 2 ounces of marijuana. Article.
Annie Rae Dixon
84 years old
Tyler, Texas
January, 1993
Bedridden with pneumonia during a drug raid. Officer kicked open her bedroom door and accidentally shot her.
Patrick Dorismond
26 years old
New York, New York
March, 2000
Patrick was a security guard who wanted to become a policeman. He was off-duty and unarmed when he went out with friends. Standing on the street looking for a taxi, he was approached by undercover police who asked to buy some marijuana from him. Patrick was offended by the request (he didn’t use drugs), and a scuffle ensued. Dorismond was then shot to death by the police.
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Shirley Dorsey
56 years old
Placerville, California
April, 1991
Rather than being compelled to testify against her 70-year-old boyfriend (Byron Stamate) for cultivating the medicinal cannabis she depended upon to help control her crippling back pain, Shirley Dorsey committed suicide. She saw it as the only way to prevent the forfeiture of their home and property. Despite her suicide, Stamate was sentenced to 9 months prison, and his home, cottage, and $177,000 life savings were seized.
Juan Mendoza Fernandez
60 years old
Dallas, Texas
September, 2000
Police found a variety of drugs when they raided the Fernandez’ home. However, Juan apparently believed he was the victim of burglars during the raid, and was shot while trying to protect his 11-year-old granddaughter. He and his wife had been married 36 years and had four children and 13 grandchildren.
Curt Ferryman
24 years old
Jacksonville, Florida
August, 2000
Undercover agents were attempting to arrest Ferryman, who was in his car and unarmed. A DEA agent knocked on the car window with his gun to get the suspect’s attention, and the gun went off, killing him as he sat in the car.
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Derek Hale
25 years old
Wilmington, Delaware
November, 2006
A retired Marine Sergeant who served two tours in Iraq, was peacefully sitting on the front stoop of a house, when police in unmarked cars who had him under surveillance (believing based on his acquaintances that he might be part of a narcotics ring) pulled up and tasered him three times, causing him to go into convulsions and throw up. Because he had not gotten his hand free from his jacket quickly enough (while convulsing) an officer then shot him point blank in the chest with three .40 caliber rounds. Hale’s widow has filed a civil lawsuit.
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Willie Heard
46 years old
Osawatomie, Kansas
February, 1999
SWAT conducted a no-knock drug raid, complete with flash-bang grenades. Heard was shot to death in front of his wife and 16-year-old daughter who had cried for help. Fearing home invasion, he was holding an empty rifle. The raid was at the wrong house.
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Clayton Helriggle
23 years old
Eaton, Ohio
September, 2002
Clayton was shot to death while coming down the stairs during a suprise raid. He was carrying either a gun or a plastic cup, depending on the report. Less than an ounce of marijuana was found.
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Esequiel Hernandez
18 years old
Redford, Texas
May, 1997
Hernandez was shot and killed by a Marine sniper in camouflage who was part of a military unit conducting drug interdiction activities near the Mexican border. Esequiel was out herding his family’s goats and had taken a break to shoot at some tin cans with his antique rifle.
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John Hirko
21 years old
Pennsylvania
1997
An unarmed man with no prior offenses was shot to death in his house by a squad of masked police. In a no-knock raid, they tossed a smoke grenade in through a window, setting the house on fire. Hirko, suspected of dealing small amounts of marijuana and cocaine, was found face down on his stairway, shot in the back while fleeing the burning building. When the fire was finally put out, officers found some marijuana seeds in an unsinged plastic bag. The Town of Bethlehem settled the resulting lawsuit for $7 million+ and an agreement to reform police department procedures and training.
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Lynette Gayle Jackson
29 years old
Riverdale, Georgia
September, 2000
Shot to death in her bed by SWAT team.
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Kathyrn Johnston
88 years old
Atlanta, Georgia
November, 2006
Kathryn lived in a rough neighborhood and a relative gave her a gun for protection. When she noticed men breaking through her security bars into her house she fired a shot into the ceiling. They were narcotics officers and fired 39 shots back, killing her. The police had falsified information in order to obtain a no-knock search warrant based on incorrect information from a dealer they had framed. After killing Johnson and realizing that she was completely innocent, they planted some marijuana in the basement. Eventually their stories fell apart federal and state investigations learned the truth. Additional facts have come to light that this was not an isolated incident in the Atlanta police department.
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Officer Ron Jones
29 years old
Prentiss, Mississippi
December, 2001
Officer Jones was in the process of serving a drug warrant, based on an informant tip. While trying to enter the rear of a duplex, he broke into the wrong apartment and was shot by the resident, Corey Maye, who had no prior record and was protecting his daughter. No drugs were found. Maye was charged with capital murder, and sentenced to death.
Corey Maye was a Drug War Victim waiting to happen. Fortunately, his death sentence was eventually overturned and he is now serving life in prison.
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Tony Martinez
19 years old
De Valle, Texas
December, 20001
Officers conducted a drug raid on a mobile home in De Valle. Martinez, who was not the target of the raid, was asleep on the couch when the raid commenced. Hearing the front door smashed open, he sat up, and was shot to death in the chest.
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Peter McWilliams
50 years old
Laurel Canyon, California
June, 2000
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Peter was a world-famous author and an advocate of medical marijuana, not only because he believed in it in principle, but because it was keeping him alive (he had AIDS and non-Hodgkins lymphoma). After California passed a law legalizing medical marijuana, Peter helped finance the efforts of Todd McCormick to cultivate marijuana for distribution to those who needed it for medical reasons. Federal agents got wind of his involvement, and Peter was a target for his advocacy. He was arrested, and in federal court was prevented from mentioning his medical condition or California’s law. While he was on bail awaiting sentencing, the prosecutors threatened to take away his mother’s house (used for bail) if he failed a drug test, so he stopped using the marijuana which controlled his nausea from the medications and allowed him to keep them down. He was found dead on the bathroom floor, choked to death on his own vomit.
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Ismael Mena
45 years old
Denver, Colorado
September, 1999
Mena was killed when police barged into his house looking for drugs. They had the wrong address.
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Pedro Oregon Navarro
22 years old
Houston, Texas
July, 1998
Following up on a tip from a drug suspect, 6 officers crowded into a hallway outside Navarro’s bedroom. When the door opened, one officer shouted that he had a gun. Navarro’s gun was never fired, but officers fired 30 rounds, with 12 of them hitting Pedro. No drugs were found.
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Cheryl Noel
44 years old
Dunkalk, Maryland
January, 2005
Substitute Sunday School Teacher Cheryl Noel possessed a registered handgun, which she kept in her bedroom (9 years earlier, Cheryl has lost her 16-year-old stepdaughter in a shooting murder). On January 19, just before 5 am, police burst into her home using flash-bang grenade and battering ram looking for drugs. Both Cheryl and her husband were asleep in the master bedroom. Suddenly awake and fearing an armed intrusion, Cheryl grabbed her gun. Police kicked in the bedroom door and shot her 3 times.
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Mario Paz
65 years old
Compton, California
August, 1999
Mario was shot twice in the back in his bedroom during a SWAT raid looking for marijuana. No drugs were found.
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Charmene Pickering
27 years old
Brooklyn, New York
July, 2001
Charmene was a passenger in a car driven by a drug suspect. State troopers and DEA agents were in the process of arresting the driver when the trooper’s gun went off and hit Charmene in the neck, killing her. Both passenger and driver were unarmed.
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Manuel Ramirez
Stockton, California
January, 1993
At 2 am, police smashed down the door and rushed into the home of Manuel Ramirez, a retired golf course groundskeeper. Ramirez awoke, grabbed a pistol and shot and killed officer Arthur Parga before other officers killed him. Police were raiding the house based on a tip that drugs were on the premises, but they found no drugs.
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Officer Arthur P. Parga
32 years old
Stockton, California
January, 1993
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Deputy Keith Ruiz
36 years old
Travis County, Texas
February, 2001
Ruiz was a husband and father who was a veteran of numerous SWAT raids. In the process of serving a drug warrant, he was trying to break down the door to a mobile home occupied by painter Edwin Delamora, his wife, and two young children. Confused by the raid at night, Delamora yelled to his wife that they were being robbed and shot through the door, killing Ruiz.
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Donald P. Scott
61 years old
Malibu, California
October, 1992
Government agencies were interested in the property of this reclusive millionaire. A warrant was issued based on concocted “evidence” of supposed marijuana plantings, and a major raid was conducted with a 32-man assault team. Scott was shot to death in front of his wife. No drugs were found.
A later official report found: “It is the District Attorney’s opinion that the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department was motivated, at least in part, by a desire to seize and forfeit the ranch for the government. Based in part upon the possibility of forfeiture, Spencer obtained a search warrant that was not supported by probable cause. This search warrant became Donald Scott’s death warrant.”
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Alberto Sepulveda
11 years old
Modesto, California
September, 2000
Alberto was killed by a shotgun blast to the back while following police orders and lying face down on the floor during a SWAT raid. He was a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary School.
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Isaac Singletary
80 years old
Jacksonville, Florida
January, 2007
Isaac lived in a rough neighborhood and often brought out his gun to chase off drug dealers. So when he saw a couple of low-lifes conducting transactions on his lawn, he came out with it again and told them to get off his property. Except they were undercover narcotics officers so they shot him. Isaac managed to get a shot or two off in response, but the officers were able to finish him off.
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Gary Shepherd
45 years old
Broadhead, Kentucky
August, 1993
When a Kentucky drug task force came to uproot his marijuana plants in August 1993, pot-grower and Vietnam vet Gary Shepherd told them, “You will have to kill me first,” took out his rifle and sat down on his front porch. That evening he was shot dead in front of his infant son. Despite the fact that Shepherd never fired a shot and his family was pleading with authorities for negotiations, state police sharpshooters appeared from the brush without warning and opened fire when he refused to drop his rifle.
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Alberta Spruill
57 years old
Harlem, New York
May, 2003
Police, acting on a tip, forced their way into Spruill’s home, setting off flash grenades. She suffered a heart attack and died. It was the wrong address.
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Ashley Villareal
14 years old
San Antonio, Texas
February, 2003
Ashley went outside at night with a family friend to move their freshly washed car under shelter. DEA agents, interested in her father, were staking out the house, and believing that her father was driving, shot and killed Ashley. The agents did not have a warrant for her father. Read The Murder of Ashley.
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Kenneth B. Walker
39 years old
Columbus, Georgia
December, 2003
Walker and three companions were pulled over in an SUV by police in a drug investigation. No drugs or weapons were found, but Walker was shot in the head. Walker was a devoted husband and father, a respected member of his church, and a 15-year middle-management employee of Blue Cross and Blue Shield.
Deputy David Glisson, who killed Walker, was fired three months later for failing to cooperate in an investigation into the shooting.
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Accelyne Williams
75 years old
Boston, Massachusetts
March, 1994
Accelyne was a retired Methodist Minister and substance abuse counselor. After an informant gave police a bad address, a SWAT raid was conducted on the minster’s home. The door was battered down, Williams was tackled to the floor and his hands tied behind his back. He died of a heart attack.
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Tarika Wilson
26 years old
Lima, Ohio
January, 2008
Tarika was a single mother of six. Lima police executed a SWAT raid with guns drawn to arrest her boyfriend on small-time drug dealing charges. Officer Joseph Chavalia was upstairs when the sound of the other officers shooting Wilson’s dogs downstairs startled him. He shot and killed Tarika, who was unarmed, on her knees, holding her 14-month-old son and complying with orders to get down on the floor (her son was shot twice but survived). Chavalia was cleared of any wrong-doing.
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Payton & Chase
Berwyn Heights, Maryland
July, 2008
Many, many dogs have been slaughtered in drug raids — Payton and Chase are the most famous. Prince George County SWAT, intercepting a package of marijuana addressed to Mayor Cheye Calvo’s wife Trinity, and knowing that criminals were addressing packages to innocents and intercepting them, nonetheless burst into the Mayor’s home without even enough investigation to know he was the Mayor or even notifying local police, shot the two dogs (Chase was running away from them when they killed him), and kept the Mayor and his mother-in-law handcuffed on the floor for hours in their dogs’ blood.
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While those above were victims of the tactics of the Drug War, there are many others who lost their lives as a result of this war.
Isidro Aviles
33 years old
New York
Isidro received a 23 year sentence for crack cocaine conspiracy based on $52 cash and the bargained testimony of a repeat criminal. 7 years later he died in prison of an undiagnosed and untreated illness. His mother, Teresa, works tirelessly with the November Coalition, Drop the Rock and others to change the laws and help other families shattered by the war. Read my article about this mother and her son.
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ehhhh fuck this noise. yeah something needs to be done to these fucking assholes. some of the worst people.
I think an arrest for life behind bars should be enough for these fuckers to be killed. they know what they are doing. Lets stop letting our own people be killed!
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It's awful how many of these officers suffer no repercussions, however the man protecting himself from an unknown attack gets life in prison. Noone is safe from the efforts of the drug warriors who are motivated by a desire to reenact their old military days on innocent civilians and seize assets.
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Murder deserves death in response.
And the drug war is directly responsible for more deaths in the USA and foreign nations around the globe than PolPot and Hitler combined. The problem is people ignore what exists in front of them, they ignore that the FDA's bullshit rules kill over a half a million people annually, they ignore that thousands die every month around the globe from the "drug war", and they ignore that crime is largely a direct result of the "legal" war on drugs.
I detest DC and London- bigots running the two separate states and their drug wars.
If I could I would gladly do what it takes to terminate the bastards responsible for the murders occurring daily in both countries.
However, calling for the deaths of all the agents and pigs period, not beneficial and definitely not moral. Those involved, give me a list of names, addresses and the like.
;)
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Kmfkewm: I just want to point out a few things:
You've listed some 100 (?) people who have died in this stupid war on drugs. Of course this war if a farce, we all know it, but to list a few people's names and circumstances of death only personalizes and demonizes your cause.
Did you consult those people's families before you used their tragedy to promote your own vision of death and destruction ? You are advocating for the death of LE associated people right?
I just want to remind you that there are other ways to right wrongs that don't involve mass trials and death. It's one thing to talk shit with your friends, it's another when you have the potential to reach out to millions of other readers online and spout off about revolution.
We are our own worst enemy when we forget the lessons of the past and believe me, you don't know what fascism or anarchy really is or you wouldn't post about it so casually with reference to your present day government.
and this:
Murder deserves death in response.
And the drug war is directly responsible for more deaths in the USA and foreign nations around the globe than PolPot and Hitler combined. The problem is people ignore what exists in front of them, they ignore that the FDA's bullshit rules kill over a half a million people annually, they ignore that thousands die every month around the globe from the "drug war", and they ignore that crime is largely a direct result of the "legal" war on drugs.
I detest DC and London- bigots running the two separate states and their drug wars.
If I could I would gladly do what it takes to terminate the bastards responsible for the murders occurring daily in both countries.
However, calling for the deaths of all the agents and pigs period, not beneficial and definitely not moral. Those involved, give me a list of names, addresses and the like.
;)
I don't even know where to begin with this: ".. the drug war has killed more people than Pol Pot and Hitler combined" ??? Where do you get this shit? I mean that's a a lot of people to just pull out of your ass. If you're going to throw around these numbers at least site them. Link them to something credible other than "The Internet"
And then your calling for death based on what some anonymous guy on a drug forum says. Are you 12? Grow up, people's opinions do matter yours included. If you call for death publicly there will always be people who will take you up on it based on they're own frustration and anger.
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EVERYBODY is a victim to the war on drugs. From buyers to sellers, and their families that have to deal with them being locked up for years on end for a victimless crime. The war on drugs makes me sick to stomach.
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EVERYBODY is a victim to the war on drugs. From buyers to sellers, and their families that have to deal with them being locked up for years on end for a victimless crime. The war on drugs makes me sick to stomach.
No Jay.
EVERYBODY is not a victim of this war. I'm not. You're still alive and posting online so presumably you're not incarcerated.
I'm not a fan of this "war" but it can be stopped. If anyone here decides to go public (and by this I mean stop hiding behind anonymity) and take up the cause to speak out against criminalization of drugs I will back you all the way. Many, many people will. More than any list of victims you can ever individually post here. The best thing you can do help your cause isn't some vague reference to "Kill all LE", that is playing right into the hands of people who would make you out to be unstable and violent; it's to become politically active. Always vote, write letters to your representatives, take a stand and let people (co-workers, friends, family) know what it is. Organize a community group and protest. These are all things you can do before calling for death.
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No Jay.
EVERYBODY is not a victim of this war. I'm not. You're still alive and posting online so presumably you're not incarcerated.
I'm not a fan of this "war" but it can be stopped. If anyone here decides to go public (and by this I mean stop hiding behind anonymity) and take up the cause to speak out against criminalization of drugs I will back you all the way. Many, many people will. More than any list of victims you can ever individually post here. The best thing you can do help your cause isn't some vague reference to "Kill all LE", that is playing right into the hands of people who would make you out to be unstable and violent; it's to become politically active. Always vote, write letters to your representatives, take a stand and let people (co-workers, friends, family) know what it is. Organize a community group and protest. These are all things you can do before calling for death.
That is an idea. Essentially this idea is
" After suffering a half century of oppression we should beg the oppressors for mercy, maybe they will go easy on us, or change their ways in another half century or century.
The victims who die in between now and some theoretical change are not important enough to justify direct action.
Our squeamishness and cowardice is more important than the pain inflicted on so many by the thugs."
Good luck with that bro. Hope you don't wind up with a bullet to the head cause you didn't fall on your knees like a bitch quite quick enough.
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philter3 - you're trolling me aren't you bro?
Keep in mind that impressionable people do read these posts. How would you feel if some stoned kid decided to make a stand and got his ass shot off based on some shit-talk you posted online? Your ideas of revolution and armed insurgency are not new, people have been getting pissed off at authority for valid reasons since the beginning of time. In the past a bunch of farmers would storm the castle with pitchforks (which is about the jist of your plan) and the King's men would come out and shoot them down. Serious rebellion takes hold when people are truly repressed. When their basic needs are withheld by a ruling class. Not because they or someone they knew couldn't smoke their dope.
The best chance at changing your world for the betterment of your own circumstances and avoiding a lot of unnecessary death is to simply lobby for your cause. Real wars have been fought for your right to do this. Many people have already died so that you or I can make a case for what we believe is important.
Personally I'd rather just smoke a J and chill than buy a gun.
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philter3 - you're trolling me aren't you bro?
Keep in mind that impressionable people do read these posts. How would you feel if some stoned kid decided to make a stand and got his ass shot off
Hopefully any kids reading this are intelligent enough to know that they cannot survive in a rambo war against the state. Our biggest strategic asset is that we are anonymous and our enemies are not. If you act non anonymously, the state will crush you.
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First I am not a 12 year old, I am actually extremely well educated and have likely far more experience than you will ever see when it comes to some of these things wackmanblu, regardless your current occupation.
I don't even know where to begin with this: ".. the drug war has killed more people than Pol Pot and Hitler combined" ??? Where do you get this shit? I mean that's a a lot of people to just pull out of your ass. If you're going to throw around these numbers at least site them. Link them to something credible other than "The Internet"
And then your calling for death based on what some anonymous guy on a drug forum says. Are you 12? Grow up, people's opinions do matter yours included. If you call for death publicly there will always be people who will take you up on it based on they're own frustration and anger.
The war on drugs is not just the DEA, it is the FDA, the FBI, and more...I never called for public death- wake the frack up and read what was written. If you had read what I wrote, I was VERY clear moron.
The FDA and its "drug requirements" which are a DIRECT result of the WAR on DRUGS are responsible for over 1,000,000 deaths every ten years on average with another 2,000,000 made seriously ill- and thats just in the US, not including foreign nations affected by bad testing protocols and more.
http://www.naturalnews.com/035936_FDA_homicide_victims.html
The war on drugs must also include the war on alcohol, as the war on drugs technically started with the Harrison Act 1914, (but you would know that right?) and actually started with minor acts in various states and cities as far back as the late 1800's.
Over the last two years alone close to 50,000 people have been killed in various South American countries, including but not limited to Mexico. A direct result of the war on drugs, murdered by DEA no- but I never said that, what I said was the WAR on drugs is responsible for...
Cartels and Organized crime in this country and many others ROSE to massive extremes as a direct result of the war on drugs.
There are more many more avenues to look when prying back the glued shut eyes of people like you.
The toll in deaths, both accidental, and more as well as the toll in prison populations (over 45% of ALL incarcerations in the US are a result of drug related crimes, many being nonviolent) and with over 5 million people in jail or the system...thats allot of people annually.
Regardless, I listed a few various sources, other than listing them, I have no desire to prove anything to someone who so obviously is a nationalist at best, fed at worse. So frack off wacken ;)
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/08/10/mexico-drug-death-toll-double-what-reported-expert-argues/
http://www.amazon.com/Drug-War-Politics-Price-Denial/dp/0520205987
http://www.childrenofthedrugwar.org/p/editor.html
http://www.strike-the-root.com/government-protection-and-drug-problem
http://www.rand.org/pubs/occasional_papers/OP121.html
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Causes_of_Death
http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/graphs/graphs.htm
philter3 - you're trolling me aren't you bro?
Keep in mind that impressionable people do read these posts. How would you feel if some stoned kid decided to make a stand and got his ass shot off
Hopefully any kids reading this are intelligent enough to know that they cannot survive in a rambo war against the state. Our biggest strategic asset is that we are anonymous and our enemies are not. If you act non anonymously, the state will crush you.
You are absolutely correct.
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Hey Liberty,
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the war on drugs. I think it's one of the biggest wastes of life, money, resources, time ... etc. Don't even get me going on wrongful convictions and mistaken raids that end in innocent deaths. What I am saying is (and sorry if I got a little hot under the collar), is that I'm amazed at how quick people are to condemn others to death based on revenge.
I know a lot of lives have been ruined, but it's not like dealers and growers and manufacturers of dope didn't play a part in their own demise. They all knew that what they were doing was deemed illegal and that if they got caught there would be punishment (severe punishment in the US). They knowingly took risks and some got nailed. They are also players in this game. To spin it any differently is a lie.
As far as LE and death go - here's the rub - They will do exactly what we tell them to do. Notice I said "we" as I still consider myself a part of society for all it's shite and benefits. If societal attitudes were to change (and they are) then people will pressure politicians to decriminalize, oh say, medical marijuana, which has already happened. Guess what the next step is? Once your Grand-daddy passes on (who probably equates weed with psychotic violent destruction) then the door is open to normalize other types of drugs.
So one day when you go down to your local coffee house / drug emporium and get royally stoned out of your head (legally and responsibly of course) you may look at the guy next to you and he may be a cop also getting royally buzzed (off-duty of course). You may find you like this guy who's just living his life. He might even have stories to tell of the bad old days of 'prohibition'. Now imagine pulling out gun and killing him dead. OR you could just get high and debate why humanity is so flawed.
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Your biggest problem is that you think we control the police. The truth is that, had it not been for intense government propaganda, the average citizen wouldn't give two shits about drug users. Here is the cycle:
Government makes propaganda demonizing a subset of the population -> society is conditioned by this propaganda, it is taught in the government schools it is distributed by the mainstream media (and indeed the church is a key player in this conspiracy) -> government creates laws to address the hysteria they have created -> society accepts these laws because of their conditioning -> police enforce the laws
you see it this way:
Society determines that something is bad -> Society has government make laws against it -> Police enforce these laws
In your model, changing the mind of society leads to government removing laws and this to police not enforcing them.In reality the mind of society was set by the government in the first place. It is in the U.S. governments best interests for drugs to remain illegal, they will never decriminalize them. Police are a part of the government. In the end we can simplify this to:
Government determines and enforces what is right and wrong , society is largely passive.
And guess what when the government says it is required for the police to rape children I will not laugh and be friends with the child rapists after society gets things to change. They still need to be punished. They do not get such an easy out as saying 'government said to do this!!'.
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Uh, cannot see the link on the first page! Give me the link and pee in my mouth!!
http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20101115/early-marijuana-use-later-brain-problems
I KNEW IT!
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I am a victom of the war on drugs.
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We are all victims of state, second to that war whether it be on drugs, thought, speech, freedom or more.
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We are all victims of state, second to that war whether it be on drugs, thought, speech, freedom or more.
I'll second that brother!
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We are all victims of state, second to that war whether it be on drugs, thought, speech, freedom or more.
I'll second that brother!
The sad thing is, most people dont get it, or dont care!
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Well, you had to do some work to look up that info. on those folks. Sadly we live in a day where the people in charge abuse, intimidate, persecute, set up, and even kill those who would take even a non-violent position and speak out against things. Abuse by police is rampant and just think if people didn't have video how bad it would be. All those imprisoned for just smoking weed are victims, all those imprisoned for just wanting to get high are victims, and all those imprisoned for selling to others who choose to get high are victims as well. The war on drugs is another media campaign invented by the government to leech money from the people to fight a false war. The society is a victim of their own governments lies about the so called war on drugs. Its a joke man, a bad joke, but still a joke. As far as what to do about it, I'd say get the word out while protecting your identity. Besides, if we had enough resources and muscle to really do something, don't you think we would have by now?
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My first reaction is utter disgust and revulsion. My second reaction is "somebody please remind me why the fuck I didn't become a cop so I could be on the side with all the power...?"
I just don't understand how anyone can look at drug laws and not see something as archaic and cruel as torturing innocent people to death for heresy and practicing the "dark arts." The things we do to living, feeling creatures of all kinds is just unforgivable. I admit that I'd find it incredibly satisfying if all the people responsible suffered the same fate... but it wouldn't do any good. It would just leave more people bitter, resentful, and wanting to do the same to others. It would cause nothing but more suffering.
I can't claim your positions are immoral, kmfkewm -- they are logical, after all -- but I wonder if you see that no good would come of your justice? None except a deep satisfaction for both of us, anyway; which would mean we were taking pleasure in the slow and painful death of a feeling creature.
Doesn't sound all that righteous. Not sure what sort of "justice" would be served by this retribution of ours -- so on what basis is all this death and misery good, just, and necessary again...?
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I am fine with causing them to suffer until they stop causing us to suffer. It seems most people are happy so long as nobody suffers or only we suffer. We are the innocent victims of them, I am happy if nobody suffers or if only they suffer.
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In poohbears locked thread someone brought up that they have not heard of many people who have had their doors kicked down and been killed by drug law enforcement agencies. Here is a small selection of such individuals for you, but in reality the list is far bigger. Of course all agents responsible must be tried for murder and executed once convicted, indeed even the politicians who have made these atrocities possible must be tried for conspiracy to commit murder and executed once convicted. However the entire DEA is complicit in these crimes, finding an agent without blood on their hands will be no easy task and finding an agent who is not guilty of kidnapping , assault and armed robbery will be impossible.
http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/drug-war-victim/
What about people who vote for politicians who support the drug war? They are also complicit. Surely their possible ignorance does not negate their culpability?
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Government makes propaganda demonizing a subset of the population -> society is conditioned by this propaganda, it is taught in the government schools it is distributed by the mainstream media (and indeed the church is a key player in this conspiracy) -> government creates laws to address the hysteria they have created -> society accepts these laws because of their conditioning -> police enforce the laws.
And yet, in your far less equitable militant libertarian world you'd have private tyrants and oligarchs creating propaganda to demonize key demographic sets or those living in territories that purchase patronage from their arch rivals -> societies would then be conditioned by this propaganda, it would be pushed by private schools and distributed by private media (who, btw, would have no concept like there is now of responsibility to the public interest since there's in effect no "public", only private interests, like what interests the guy who pays the groceries) owned directly by or affiliated with the respective oligarch -> the oligarch ruling by decree on what the arbitrary laws he decides upon are when driving on his roads, attending his schools, working at his companies, renting his homes, even those drinking his clean water and breathing his clean air, will then create laws that justify the hysteria of the propaganda he created and the significant portions of society whose livelihood depends upon him for patronage shall embrace and exalt him as wise and just in accordance with the propaganda. -> the oligarch's private goon squad executes these new decrees and the "public" nods their heads in loving approval.
I don't know man. That sounds like a pretty repulsive alternative. :)
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The war on drugs is so fake. The reality is; everytime someone lights up, gets high, buys shit, orders from SR, is just another reminder of who is winning. The cops fumble around with catching decoy loads thinking they got 'the big one'. Meanwhile a 100x more just got by them. If they go after a plane, there's tons more going by sea, if they go after a boat, there's tons more going by land, if they stop a truck, there's 20 more that just went by. Up yours DEA, lol.
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Some days i really feel the injustice...it brings tears to my eyes....and i just wanna lash out at THE NME...
like a ticking time bomb....the wrongs need to be righted...and i am not talking about terrorism i hate them fuckers...
the people who are doing the damage need to be dealt with..once and for all....
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This kind of shit is why the police should be treated as a very dangerous & very violent armed gang that has the system stacked in their favor.
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The solution is to get a powerful enough group that they can use violence to enforce rules without being crushed. But they need to only enforce a single rule, which is nobody can initiate force against others. If people initiate force against others then they need to have escalating force used against them, slightly more than they have used against others. Militant libertarianism is the answer to the problems of the world, provided enough people support it for it to be meaningfully implemented.
Suffering is caused by bad humans having power over other humans. Imagine I have a magic notebook and if I write the name of anyone / group / type of person in it then they die. I think in such a case it would be fair to say that I have power over all of humanity, I can kill anyone or even everyone If I want to. However, if I only use this power to kill those who initiate force, despite having power over all of humanity, only bad people will be affected by me. I write the name of the DEA in the book and they all die, so in a way I have caused suffering, but people who do not needlessly fuck over others for their own benefit have nothing to worry about. Is that really such a bad thing then, that I have power over everyone ?
People who fuck over others need to be stopped. It doesn't matter what the majority of people think , they are brainwashed or power hungry themselves. There is no moral need for people who are capable of stopping evil people, to wait for society to say it is okay to stop evil people.
The thing is in a libertarian society you are free to select your own defense agency. Who exactly is going to abuse you Astor? All you really say then is that libertarians can not gain enough power to protect themselves from evil people (which mostly boils down to everybody who is not a libertarian, although in their favor some of them are just brainwashed or idiots).
I really don't understand how some of you, like jpinkman, can be so infatuated with the government and statism. To me, the thought of majority rules just makes me cringe. It is like saying you are okay with the holocaust if the majority of people say it is okay, and anybody who tries to stop the execution of the Jews must be terrorists for going against the will of the people. You should realize that democracy is especially dangerous due to the fact that the majority is easily brainwashed, they 'think' with their emotions rather than logic and they are largely uneducated on any issues they would be voting on. It is a bunch of greedy, emotional, gullible, mystical, illogical, uneducated people deciding on the fate of themselves and their neighbors, And really they are so easily influenced that it becomes a bunch of sociopathic extremely greedy and fantatical (either to God or the collective) assholes who use the people to meet their own goals.
I am not at all for democracy. First of all, nobody has any right to tell me what to do so long as I mind my own business and don't fuck with other people. That alone is enough to justify me not bowing to the state, even if the majority of dumb fucks think that I should. Additionally, when the masses are ostensibly in charge (although they never are in reality, considering they are easily manipulated by the elites), they make stupid choices that result in not only me being oppressed, but in god damn everybody except the select few being oppressed. The elites can split society up into a thousand minority groups and get the majority to turn against them. But oh noez everybody is part of some minority group, so it is divide and conquer.
The solution is to take power away from the elites and away from the people, and to violently enforce libertarianism. Nobody has any reason to bitch about this happening, libertarianism permits everybody to do whatever the fuck they want so long as they do not initiate force against others. The people who do not want enforced libertarianism ALL fall into one of the following camps:
1. They want to steal money from others ("I am entitled to free health care and other shit!!111")
2. They want to tell other people what to do ("No drugs for you! No gay marriage for you! Worship my God or else!!!!")
it is that fucking simple. Because the majority of people want to hold a gun to their neighbors head and steal their shit, or hold a gun to their head and make them worship their God, or hold a gun to their head and make them follow their moral compass, they are against libertarianism. So only evil people are against libertarianism. Nobody is against libertarianism because they are afraid they will be oppressed, because there is absolutely no other ideology that is as freedom loving as libertarianism. No moral ideology can possibly be more freedom oriented than 'do whatever the fuck you want just don't hurt anybody other than yourself in the process'.
We need to have global libertarianism, and the people enforcing it need to gain so much power over the world that there is absolutely no chance of them ever losing it, democracy and the government and everybody else be damned.
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John Adams
64 years old
Lebanon, Tennessee
October, 2000
Shot to death during a SWAT drug raid while watching TV. The house didn’t match the description on the warrant.
Rev. Jonathan Ayers
28 years old
Toccoa, Georgia
September, 2009
After meeting with a parishioner who was under surveillance by drug cops, the pastor went to a Convenience store ATM. Coming out, he was confronted by men waving guns. He didn’t know they were undercover cops, and was shot to death while driving off, fearing for his life.
Xavier Bennett
8 years old
Atlanta, Georgia
November, 1991
Xavier was accidentally shot to death by officers in a pre-dawn drug raid during a gunfight with one of Xavier’s relatives.
Delbert Bonnar
57 years old
Belpre, Ohio
October, 1998
Shot 8 times by police in drug raid. They were looking for his son.
Veronica Bowers
35 years old
Charity Bowers
7 months old
In the air over Peru
April, 2001
As part of a long-standing arrangement to stop drug shipments, U.S. government tracking provided the information for the Peruvian Air Force to mistakenly shoot down a Cessna plane carrying missionaries. Killed in the incident were Roni Bowers, a missionary with the Association of Baptists for World Evangelism, and her daughter, Charity. In 2008, a new report surfaced indicating widespread problems with the shoot-down program that had been withheld from Congress by the CIA.
Rudolfo “Rudy” Cardenas
43 years old
San Jose, California
February, 2004
Rudy was a father of five who was passing by a house targeted by narcotics officers attempting to serve a parole violation warrant and the police mistakenly thought he was the one they were there to arrest. They chased Cardenas, and he fled, apparently afraid of them (they were not uniformed). Cardenas was shot multiple times in the back.
Dorothy Duckett, 78, told the Mercury News she looked out her fifth-floor window after hearing one gunshot and saw Cardenas pleading for his life. “I watched him running with his hands in the air. He kept saying, ‘Don’t shoot. Don’t shoot,’” Duckett said. “He had absolutely nothing in his hands.”
Jose Colon
20 years old
Suffolk, New York
April, 2002
Jose was outside the house where he had come to repay a $20 debt, when a drug raid on the house commenced. He was shot in the head by SWAT.
Troy Davis
25 years old
North Richland Hills, Texas
December, 1999
During a no-knock raid to find some marijuana plants he was growing, he was shot to death in his living room. There are disputed accounts regarding whether he had a gun.
Anthony Andrew Diotaiuto
23 years old
Sunrise, Florida
August, 2005
Anthony worked two jobs to help pay for the house he lived in with his mother. He had permit for a concealed weapon because of the areas he traveled through for his night job. Sunrise police claimed that he had sold some marijuana, and because they knew he had a legal gun, decided to use SWAT. Neighbors claim that the police did not identify themselves. Police first claimed that Anthony pointed his gun at them, and later changed their story. Regardless, Anthony was dead with 10 bullets in him, and the police found 2 ounces of marijuana. Article.
Annie Rae Dixon
84 years old
Tyler, Texas
January, 1993
Bedridden with pneumonia during a drug raid. Officer kicked open her bedroom door and accidentally shot her.
Patrick Dorismond
26 years old
New York, New York
March, 2000
Patrick was a security guard who wanted to become a policeman. He was off-duty and unarmed when he went out with friends. Standing on the street looking for a taxi, he was approached by undercover police who asked to buy some marijuana from him. Patrick was offended by the request (he didn’t use drugs), and a scuffle ensued. Dorismond was then shot to death by the police.
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Shirley Dorsey
56 years old
Placerville, California
April, 1991
Rather than being compelled to testify against her 70-year-old boyfriend (Byron Stamate) for cultivating the medicinal cannabis she depended upon to help control her crippling back pain, Shirley Dorsey committed suicide. She saw it as the only way to prevent the forfeiture of their home and property. Despite her suicide, Stamate was sentenced to 9 months prison, and his home, cottage, and $177,000 life savings were seized.
Juan Mendoza Fernandez
60 years old
Dallas, Texas
September, 2000
Police found a variety of drugs when they raided the Fernandez’ home. However, Juan apparently believed he was the victim of burglars during the raid, and was shot while trying to protect his 11-year-old granddaughter. He and his wife had been married 36 years and had four children and 13 grandchildren.
Curt Ferryman
24 years old
Jacksonville, Florida
August, 2000
Undercover agents were attempting to arrest Ferryman, who was in his car and unarmed. A DEA agent knocked on the car window with his gun to get the suspect’s attention, and the gun went off, killing him as he sat in the car.
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Derek Hale
25 years old
Wilmington, Delaware
November, 2006
A retired Marine Sergeant who served two tours in Iraq, was peacefully sitting on the front stoop of a house, when police in unmarked cars who had him under surveillance (believing based on his acquaintances that he might be part of a narcotics ring) pulled up and tasered him three times, causing him to go into convulsions and throw up. Because he had not gotten his hand free from his jacket quickly enough (while convulsing) an officer then shot him point blank in the chest with three .40 caliber rounds. Hale’s widow has filed a civil lawsuit.
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Willie Heard
46 years old
Osawatomie, Kansas
February, 1999
SWAT conducted a no-knock drug raid, complete with flash-bang grenades. Heard was shot to death in front of his wife and 16-year-old daughter who had cried for help. Fearing home invasion, he was holding an empty rifle. The raid was at the wrong house.
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Clayton Helriggle
23 years old
Eaton, Ohio
September, 2002
Clayton was shot to death while coming down the stairs during a suprise raid. He was carrying either a gun or a plastic cup, depending on the report. Less than an ounce of marijuana was found.
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Esequiel Hernandez
18 years old
Redford, Texas
May, 1997
Hernandez was shot and killed by a Marine sniper in camouflage who was part of a military unit conducting drug interdiction activities near the Mexican border. Esequiel was out herding his family’s goats and had taken a break to shoot at some tin cans with his antique rifle.
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John Hirko
21 years old
Pennsylvania
1997
An unarmed man with no prior offenses was shot to death in his house by a squad of masked police. In a no-knock raid, they tossed a smoke grenade in through a window, setting the house on fire. Hirko, suspected of dealing small amounts of marijuana and cocaine, was found face down on his stairway, shot in the back while fleeing the burning building. When the fire was finally put out, officers found some marijuana seeds in an unsinged plastic bag. The Town of Bethlehem settled the resulting lawsuit for $7 million+ and an agreement to reform police department procedures and training.
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Lynette Gayle Jackson
29 years old
Riverdale, Georgia
September, 2000
Shot to death in her bed by SWAT team.
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Kathyrn Johnston
88 years old
Atlanta, Georgia
November, 2006
Kathryn lived in a rough neighborhood and a relative gave her a gun for protection. When she noticed men breaking through her security bars into her house she fired a shot into the ceiling. They were narcotics officers and fired 39 shots back, killing her. The police had falsified information in order to obtain a no-knock search warrant based on incorrect information from a dealer they had framed. After killing Johnson and realizing that she was completely innocent, they planted some marijuana in the basement. Eventually their stories fell apart federal and state investigations learned the truth. Additional facts have come to light that this was not an isolated incident in the Atlanta police department.
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Officer Ron Jones
29 years old
Prentiss, Mississippi
December, 2001
Officer Jones was in the process of serving a drug warrant, based on an informant tip. While trying to enter the rear of a duplex, he broke into the wrong apartment and was shot by the resident, Corey Maye, who had no prior record and was protecting his daughter. No drugs were found. Maye was charged with capital murder, and sentenced to death.
Corey Maye was a Drug War Victim waiting to happen. Fortunately, his death sentence was eventually overturned and he is now serving life in prison.
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Tony Martinez
19 years old
De Valle, Texas
December, 20001
Officers conducted a drug raid on a mobile home in De Valle. Martinez, who was not the target of the raid, was asleep on the couch when the raid commenced. Hearing the front door smashed open, he sat up, and was shot to death in the chest.
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Peter McWilliams
50 years old
Laurel Canyon, California
June, 2000
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Peter was a world-famous author and an advocate of medical marijuana, not only because he believed in it in principle, but because it was keeping him alive (he had AIDS and non-Hodgkins lymphoma). After California passed a law legalizing medical marijuana, Peter helped finance the efforts of Todd McCormick to cultivate marijuana for distribution to those who needed it for medical reasons. Federal agents got wind of his involvement, and Peter was a target for his advocacy. He was arrested, and in federal court was prevented from mentioning his medical condition or California’s law. While he was on bail awaiting sentencing, the prosecutors threatened to take away his mother’s house (used for bail) if he failed a drug test, so he stopped using the marijuana which controlled his nausea from the medications and allowed him to keep them down. He was found dead on the bathroom floor, choked to death on his own vomit.
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Ismael Mena
45 years old
Denver, Colorado
September, 1999
Mena was killed when police barged into his house looking for drugs. They had the wrong address.
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Pedro Oregon Navarro
22 years old
Houston, Texas
July, 1998
Following up on a tip from a drug suspect, 6 officers crowded into a hallway outside Navarro’s bedroom. When the door opened, one officer shouted that he had a gun. Navarro’s gun was never fired, but officers fired 30 rounds, with 12 of them hitting Pedro. No drugs were found.
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Cheryl Noel
44 years old
Dunkalk, Maryland
January, 2005
Substitute Sunday School Teacher Cheryl Noel possessed a registered handgun, which she kept in her bedroom (9 years earlier, Cheryl has lost her 16-year-old stepdaughter in a shooting murder). On January 19, just before 5 am, police burst into her home using flash-bang grenade and battering ram looking for drugs. Both Cheryl and her husband were asleep in the master bedroom. Suddenly awake and fearing an armed intrusion, Cheryl grabbed her gun. Police kicked in the bedroom door and shot her 3 times.
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Mario Paz
65 years old
Compton, California
August, 1999
Mario was shot twice in the back in his bedroom during a SWAT raid looking for marijuana. No drugs were found.
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Charmene Pickering
27 years old
Brooklyn, New York
July, 2001
Charmene was a passenger in a car driven by a drug suspect. State troopers and DEA agents were in the process of arresting the driver when the trooper’s gun went off and hit Charmene in the neck, killing her. Both passenger and driver were unarmed.
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Manuel Ramirez
Stockton, California
January, 1993
At 2 am, police smashed down the door and rushed into the home of Manuel Ramirez, a retired golf course groundskeeper. Ramirez awoke, grabbed a pistol and shot and killed officer Arthur Parga before other officers killed him. Police were raiding the house based on a tip that drugs were on the premises, but they found no drugs.
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Officer Arthur P. Parga
32 years old
Stockton, California
January, 1993
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Deputy Keith Ruiz
36 years old
Travis County, Texas
February, 2001
Ruiz was a husband and father who was a veteran of numerous SWAT raids. In the process of serving a drug warrant, he was trying to break down the door to a mobile home occupied by painter Edwin Delamora, his wife, and two young children. Confused by the raid at night, Delamora yelled to his wife that they were being robbed and shot through the door, killing Ruiz.
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Donald P. Scott
61 years old
Malibu, California
October, 1992
Government agencies were interested in the property of this reclusive millionaire. A warrant was issued based on concocted “evidence” of supposed marijuana plantings, and a major raid was conducted with a 32-man assault team. Scott was shot to death in front of his wife. No drugs were found.
A later official report found: “It is the District Attorney’s opinion that the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department was motivated, at least in part, by a desire to seize and forfeit the ranch for the government. Based in part upon the possibility of forfeiture, Spencer obtained a search warrant that was not supported by probable cause. This search warrant became Donald Scott’s death warrant.”
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Alberto Sepulveda
11 years old
Modesto, California
September, 2000
Alberto was killed by a shotgun blast to the back while following police orders and lying face down on the floor during a SWAT raid. He was a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary School.
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Isaac Singletary
80 years old
Jacksonville, Florida
January, 2007
Isaac lived in a rough neighborhood and often brought out his gun to chase off drug dealers. So when he saw a couple of low-lifes conducting transactions on his lawn, he came out with it again and told them to get off his property. Except they were undercover narcotics officers so they shot him. Isaac managed to get a shot or two off in response, but the officers were able to finish him off.
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Gary Shepherd
45 years old
Broadhead, Kentucky
August, 1993
When a Kentucky drug task force came to uproot his marijuana plants in August 1993, pot-grower and Vietnam vet Gary Shepherd told them, “You will have to kill me first,” took out his rifle and sat down on his front porch. That evening he was shot dead in front of his infant son. Despite the fact that Shepherd never fired a shot and his family was pleading with authorities for negotiations, state police sharpshooters appeared from the brush without warning and opened fire when he refused to drop his rifle.
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Alberta Spruill
57 years old
Harlem, New York
May, 2003
Police, acting on a tip, forced their way into Spruill’s home, setting off flash grenades. She suffered a heart attack and died. It was the wrong address.
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Ashley Villareal
14 years old
San Antonio, Texas
February, 2003
Ashley went outside at night with a family friend to move their freshly washed car under shelter. DEA agents, interested in her father, were staking out the house, and believing that her father was driving, shot and killed Ashley. The agents did not have a warrant for her father. Read The Murder of Ashley.
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Kenneth B. Walker
39 years old
Columbus, Georgia
December, 2003
Walker and three companions were pulled over in an SUV by police in a drug investigation. No drugs or weapons were found, but Walker was shot in the head. Walker was a devoted husband and father, a respected member of his church, and a 15-year middle-management employee of Blue Cross and Blue Shield.
Deputy David Glisson, who killed Walker, was fired three months later for failing to cooperate in an investigation into the shooting.
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Accelyne Williams
75 years old
Boston, Massachusetts
March, 1994
Accelyne was a retired Methodist Minister and substance abuse counselor. After an informant gave police a bad address, a SWAT raid was conducted on the minster’s home. The door was battered down, Williams was tackled to the floor and his hands tied behind his back. He died of a heart attack.
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Tarika Wilson
26 years old
Lima, Ohio
January, 2008
Tarika was a single mother of six. Lima police executed a SWAT raid with guns drawn to arrest her boyfriend on small-time drug dealing charges. Officer Joseph Chavalia was upstairs when the sound of the other officers shooting Wilson’s dogs downstairs startled him. He shot and killed Tarika, who was unarmed, on her knees, holding her 14-month-old son and complying with orders to get down on the floor (her son was shot twice but survived). Chavalia was cleared of any wrong-doing.
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Payton & Chase
Berwyn Heights, Maryland
July, 2008
Many, many dogs have been slaughtered in drug raids — Payton and Chase are the most famous. Prince George County SWAT, intercepting a package of marijuana addressed to Mayor Cheye Calvo’s wife Trinity, and knowing that criminals were addressing packages to innocents and intercepting them, nonetheless burst into the Mayor’s home without even enough investigation to know he was the Mayor or even notifying local police, shot the two dogs (Chase was running away from them when they killed him), and kept the Mayor and his mother-in-law handcuffed on the floor for hours in their dogs’ blood.
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While those above were victims of the tactics of the Drug War, there are many others who lost their lives as a result of this war.
Isidro Aviles
33 years old
New York
Isidro received a 23 year sentence for crack cocaine conspiracy based on $52 cash and the bargained testimony of a repeat criminal. 7 years later he died in prison of an undiagnosed and untreated illness. His mother, Teresa, works tirelessly with the November Coalition, Drop the Rock and others to change the laws and help other families shattered by the war. Read my article about this mother and her son.
what happened to cops who were killing innocent people ? someone must have came after cops family.
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This shit is deplorable.
These names, this list of victims, should be committed to stone and prominently displayed somewhere.
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Deplorable indeed, and only a microcosm at that.
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Insightful reading painful though needed
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EVERYBODY is a victim to the war on drugs. From buyers to sellers, and their families that have to deal with them being locked up for years on end for a victimless crime. The war on drugs makes me sick to stomach.
No Jay.
EVERYBODY is not a victim of this war. I'm not. You're still alive and posting online so presumably you're not incarcerated.
I'm not a fan of this "war" but it can be stopped. If anyone here decides to go public (and by this I mean stop hiding behind anonymity) and take up the cause to speak out against criminalization of drugs I will back you all the way. Many, many people will. More than any list of victims you can ever individually post here. The best thing you can do help your cause isn't some vague reference to "Kill all LE", that is playing right into the hands of people who would make you out to be unstable and violent; it's to become politically active. Always vote, write letters to your representatives, take a stand and let people (co-workers, friends, family) know what it is. Organize a community group and protest. These are all things you can do before calling for death.
To say you're not a victim means you are disconnected from the rest of humanity IMO. Maybe you are interpreting the word victim differently than me. Everything has an effect, open your eyes and maybe you will see that one day!
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I hate financing the Zetas when buying coke, they should legalize it. If the plants grew in normal conditions I would even make it myself.
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To say you're not a victim means you are disconnected from the rest of humanity IMO. Maybe you are interpreting the word victim differently than me. Everything has an effect, open your eyes and maybe you will see that one day!
SealTeam - I'm not following you at all. What's your point? That all of us are victims and if I disagree then I'm "disconnected from the rest of humanity" - this is a very vague reference to ... some kind of teen rebellion thing. I maintain that I have not been victimized by anyone or anything. I get up and go to work, I pay taxes, I enjoy my life, sometimes I do drugs. I don't always agree with what my taxes fund but I do respect the legitimacy of an elected government to do what they believe is best. If enough of us don't like it we simply vote them out. If our lobby was big enough and organized enough then we could legalize soft drugs tomorrow. The problem is youth doesn't vote, if they did we would have had Amsterdam style coffee houses everywhere by now.
I know that's not as cool as saying "Fuck the politicians and kill all the police" but the alternative - picking up a gun and playing God - is ludicrous. The war on drugs is a farce and there have certainly been some victims, but I'd guess the majority of people in jail for drug related offenses knew that drugs were illegal before they started dealing.
For the record, my definition of a victim is someone who has been forcefully and negatively subjected to the will of another without any recourse. And no, governmental laws do not fall under that definition as we all have a say in electing who gets power and their laws are transparent - meaning that police can't just pick you up for unclear reasons, if they do there are laws to protect you from being persecuted. Additionally, no western government will prevent its citizens from emigrating if they don't like the laws where they live.
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I'm a victim of Obama (and his ilk) war on American Heterosexual White Males.
Should I start my own thread? Or should I start my puking here. - Cause this dictator had made me and many like me sick to the point of insurrection!
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It's all bullshit and bad for ya.
I Plead you read my voice in Philosophy, Economics and Law brothers and sisters.
I love you all.
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If they refuse to stop they must be dealt with! we are winning. :)
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If even a quarter of those stories are true...
It's all bullshit and bad for ya.
I Plead you read my voice in Philosophy, Economics and Law brothers and sisters.
I love you all.
Keep posting, we'll keep reading. ;)
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To say you're not a victim means you are disconnected from the rest of humanity IMO. Maybe you are interpreting the word victim differently than me. Everything has an effect, open your eyes and maybe you will see that one day!
SealTeam - I'm not following you at all. What's your point? That all of us are victims and if I disagree then I'm "disconnected from the rest of humanity" - this is a very vague reference to ... some kind of teen rebellion thing. I maintain that I have not been victimized by anyone or anything. I get up and go to work, I pay taxes, I enjoy my life, sometimes I do drugs. I don't always agree with what my taxes fund but I do respect the legitimacy of an elected government to do what they believe is best. If enough of us don't like it we simply vote them out. If our lobby was big enough and organized enough then we could legalize soft drugs tomorrow. The problem is youth doesn't vote, if they did we would have had Amsterdam style coffee houses everywhere by now.
I know that's not as cool as saying "Fuck the politicians and kill all the police" but the alternative - picking up a gun and playing God - is ludicrous. The war on drugs is a farce and there have certainly been some victims, but I'd guess the majority of people in jail for drug related offenses knew that drugs were illegal before they started dealing.
For the record, my definition of a victim is someone who has been forcefully and negatively subjected to the will of another without any recourse. And no, governmental laws do not fall under that definition as we all have a say in electing who gets power and their laws are transparent - meaning that police can't just pick you up for unclear reasons, if they do there are laws to protect you from being persecuted. Additionally, no western government will prevent its citizens from emigrating if they don't like the laws where they live.
I take it that when the elected politicians say it is time to gas the Jews that you will be supporting them still? You are one of the people brainwashed by the law. You don't care what the law is, you only know that the law is God. People like you are the most dangerous people in the world. You don't seem to have problem with the government picking up guns and playing God, but heaven forbid the people do it! Seriously, could you possibly fit more government dick into your ass?
PS: Ever heard of analog drug laws? You make it seem like the law is so crystal clear but in reality it is muddy as fuck. Ever heard of obscenity laws? Also are you aware that US federal law applies to US citizens regardless of where they reside? The only way for a US citizen to escape US law is to legally renounce their citizenship and then emigrate outside of the US. Man you really irritate me with how hardcore into the law you are, it sucks seeing brainwashed people who have chugged as much of the kool aid as they possibly could.
Seriously, you seem to think that if a country consists of two Nazi's and a Jew that the Jew should march right into the gas chamber if that is the 'will of the people'. Don't you ever get sick of being a Nazi apologist?
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No Jay.
I'm not a fan of this "war" but it can be stopped. If anyone here decides to go public (and by this I mean stop hiding behind anonymity) and take up the cause to speak out against criminalization of drugs I will back you all the way. Many, many people will. More than any list of victims you can ever individually post here.
If anybody involved in things here gives up their anonymity they will probably go to fucking jail, and even assuming that they do not go to jail, what do you expect them to accomplish? There are already groups protesting prohibition and they are accomplishing very little. Marijuana is sort-of legal in two states after decades and decades of struggling against state oppression, millions of broken lives later. I don't know about you but I want drugs to be legalized in *my* lifetime I don't want them to be legalized in two hundred more years when I am long dead and gone. The most effective way to protest the war on drugs is to cause mass casualties in those who enforce the drug laws. Nobody gives a fuck about people protesting or writing letters, they are just ignored. People cannot ignore a hundred DEA agents dying at the same time, not to mention that results in one hundred less people to enforce drug laws.
The best thing you can do help your cause isn't some vague reference to "Kill all LE", that is playing right into the hands of people who would make you out to be unstable and violent; it's to become politically active. Always vote, write letters to your representatives, take a stand and let people (co-workers, friends, family) know what it is. Organize a community group and protest. These are all things you can do before calling for death.
Yeah we can vote for the Democrats who don't want to legalize drugs, or for the republicans who sure as fuck don't want to legalize drugs, or for the libertarians who have absolutely zero chance of ever being elected. Voting sounds like a massive waste of time to me. You might as well say that we should start building a tower to reach the fucking moon. My representatives don't give a flying tenth of a fuck about any letter that I write to them, and the fact that you think they do demonstrates an extreme naivety on your part. The only people I would willingly associate with already hold the same beliefs as I do, I try to avoid Nazi's whenever possible. So none of your fantastic advice has worked historically, and it appears that it will never work, so is it time to start calling for death yet?
No Jay.
EVERYBODY is not a victim of this war. I'm not. You're still alive and posting online so presumably you're not incarcerated.
Everybody is a victim of the war on drugs. Drug users are the most obvious victims, as we regularly end up locked in prison or dead because of the war on drugs.
Innocent people like the ones in my first post are also victims of the war on drugs, and there are thousands and thousands of them. The entire country is victimized by the war on drugs, a trillion dollars has been spent fighting a completely pointless and doomed to fail war that has accomplished jack fucking shit. What could we have spent a TRILLION dollars on instead? Maybe eradicating poverty? Maybe having a better education system? Better healthcare system? I mean, I am against taxation entirely, but it sure seems like we could have spent a trillion dollars on something more useful than building a bunch of prisons to lock up harmless drug users. So all of the poor stupid and sick people are victims of the war on drugs as well.
Keep in mind that impressionable people do read these posts. How would you feel if some stoned kid decided to make a stand and got his ass shot off based on some shit-talk you posted online? Your ideas of revolution and armed insurgency are not new, people have been getting pissed off at authority for valid reasons since the beginning of time. In the past a bunch of farmers would storm the castle with pitchforks (which is about the jist of your plan) and the King's men would come out and shoot them down. Serious rebellion takes hold when people are truly repressed. When their basic needs are withheld by a ruling class. Not because they or someone they knew couldn't smoke their dope.
Honestly if some stoned kid decides to make a stand and blasts a bunch of drug enforcement agents straight to hell, I will consider him to be a martyr and a hero. You are really condescending toward drug users, and extremely statist, and it makes me highly doubt that you yourself are actually a drug user. We are not oppressed only because we cannot "smoke our dope" we are oppressed because we are sent to die in motherfucking prisons by armed to the teeth paramilitary troops who spy on us and treat us like motherfucking enemy combatants. We are shot and murdered, we are under constant attack and thousands of us die from overdoses because of these assholes. So you can blow them all you want to, but the fact is they are fucking murderous sociopathic killers and the more of them that die the better off all rational human beings will be.
The best chance at changing your world for the betterment of your own circumstances and avoiding a lot of unnecessary death is to simply lobby for your cause. Real wars have been fought for your right to do this. Many people have already died so that you or I can make a case for what we believe is important.
Personally I'd rather just smoke a J and chill than buy a gun.
Personally I would rather just smoke a J and chill than buy a gun as well, I am also sure most Jewish people in Nazi Germany would have rather just chilled than been sent to death camps! Your suggestions in reality are completely useless gestures, we could all write fifty fucking letters tomorrow and it wouldn't change a single god damn fucking thing and you have to have your head shoved up your ass so far that I question your ability to breathe if you think otherwise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the war on drugs. I think it's one of the biggest wastes of life, money, resources, time ... etc. Don't even get me going on wrongful convictions and mistaken raids that end in innocent deaths. What I am saying is (and sorry if I got a little hot under the collar), is that I'm amazed at how quick people are to condemn others to death based on revenge.
Maybe condemning them to death based on revenge is taking it too far. Maybe we shouldn't hunt down every single DEA agent, snitch and informant and execute them like we are Mossad and they are Nazi war criminals. But condemning others to death for our freedom is obviously in our right to do. If we knew that killing one thousand DEA agents would result in complete legalization of drugs, we would be fools to not start killing them immediately! Maybe the best strategy will end up being killing them until we are free and then punishing the survivors until we have justice.
I know a lot of lives have been ruined, but it's not like dealers and growers and manufacturers of dope didn't play a part in their own demise. They all knew that what they were doing was deemed illegal and that if they got caught there would be punishment (severe punishment in the US). They knowingly took risks and some got nailed. They are also players in this game. To spin it any differently is a lie.
Being a Jehovahs Witness in Nazi Germany was a crime, and all of them knew it. They were offered the opportunity to renounce their faith and spare themselves from punishment, however many of them continued to practice their faith and refused to renounce it. They were then sent to concentration camps and killed. You are literally arguing that because they knew the risks of continuing to practice their faith, and yet they continued to do so, that THEY are responsible for being gassed at concentration camps, rather than the Nazi war criminals. It is just abso-fucking-lutely disgusting to hear such insanity and it is honestly just offensive to me that you actually think in this way.
As far as LE and death go - here's the rub - They will do exactly what we tell them to do. Notice I said "we" as I still consider myself a part of society for all it's shite and benefits. If societal attitudes were to change (and they are) then people will pressure politicians to decriminalize, oh say, medical marijuana, which has already happened. Guess what the next step is? Once your Grand-daddy passes on (who probably equates weed with psychotic violent destruction) then the door is open to normalize other types of drugs.
So one day when you go down to your local coffee house / drug emporium and get royally stoned out of your head (legally and responsibly of course) you may look at the guy next to you and he may be a cop also getting royally buzzed (off-duty of course). You may find you like this guy who's just living his life. He might even have stories to tell of the bad old days of 'prohibition'. Now imagine pulling out gun and killing him dead. OR you could just get high and debate why humanity is so flawed.
One day a Jew may go down to his local library and find an ex Nazi war criminal reading a book. Now if the Jew is in Mossad he will quite possibly pull a gun out and shoot him dead, but in any case I don't think he will perceive him as somebody who is just like him living his life. Hell, the Nazi probably even has stories from the bad ol' days of the holocaust.
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I'm a victim of Obama (and his ilk) war on American Heterosexual White Males.
Should I start my own thread? Or should I start my puking here. - Cause this dictator had made me and many like me sick to the point of insurrection!
You're only a victim from your own failure to stick up for yourself then. Seriously , who the fuck is persecuting you, and how exactly? and what if anything have you been deprived of being a white htero male,?
I also am an American Hetero white male and Ive seen nothing of the sort,. You dont like Obama, thats OK, but dont cry wolf your being victimized ... more than any other american of any other race, creed, sex, is being victimized by this, our own government.
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kmfewm - I love you man, you are without a doubt my favorite extremist. You're very smart, academically inclined., and probably a 23 yr old poli-sci student who has all the answers in a cartoon-ish black and white world of 'Jew' and 'Nazi' characters. You provide simplistic scenarios to complex human situations. You probably have big 'ol bunny eyes and a beautiful round head. Oh, if I could only pinch those naive young cheeks whilst gazing on you with awe and wonderment ... *ahem* on with my rebuttal;
It'll take to long to address the essay you wrote so I'll sum it up with glib short to-the-point sentences:
Yes, laws can be "muddy as fuck", that is why the courts exist, to interpret them as best they can, as given to each case presented. It is not perfect, many many miscarriages of justice have occurred, in my country as well as yours (I'm assuming you're an American), but it is so far the best system I can see. Do you have a better one in mind? One that doesn't result in dictatorial tribalism gone amuck ? Please share.
I don't believe that any law is God-like (they can and do change often) but I generally respect the laws of my country, most of them anyway, I do smoke a blunt here and there and if I got caught I would respect the law and pay the fine, just as I would a parking ticket. I'm hardly apathetic to my government, I make sure I hold them accountable to their actions by participating in the system, not screaming for blood and death. If there is an obvious wrong committed by my government OR something I disagree with I protest it and more often that not the government listens. NOTE - this does not mean I always get my way, part of what defines living in a democratic and free country means that I don't get my way all the time.
Equating the Jehovah Witness religion in Nazi Germany with drug dealing in the US is .. ludicrous. I can't seriously comment on it.
I agree with you when you say that if we write "fifty fucking letters tomorrow (sic) it wouldn't change a single god damn fucking thing". Yeah, you'd probably be regarded as a fanatic by whoever had to read all 50. BUT if we each write 1 letter and the support base was broad enough and we followed it up with demonstrations and an effective lobby group, well, you bet your sweet ass things would change. This is called 'activism' (not slactivism where you just add your signature to some chain email) and it's proven effective for instigating change in many countries word wide.
If some impressionable kid reads your spewing hatred of the DEA, gets fired up and decides to go and knock a few off, he will probably be killed or imprisoned for a long time - and you would regard him as a martyr?? Sounds a bit like some other hateful extremists we know.
I agree with you again on the wasteful spending of tax dollars on the US's 'War On Drugs". No doubt it has been funded at the expense of other social programs and that is a tragedy. So sure, in that sense we're all victims (my country also spends disproportionate amounts on drug enforcement). My point here was to say that this so-called war is a losing battle in that someone like myself - an occasional user of recreational drugs - can still find and enjoy dope. I've never had my door kicked in by Nazis, been incarcerated, overly-fined or repressed for my pro-drug opinions which BTW are no secret to anyone who knows me IRL. So no, I would not say that I (and by extension most other drug users I know) have ever been a victim of this war.
If you don't have faith in either one of your 2 established political parties to accurately reflect your values you are free to start your own grass-roots movement. It has been done before, the Tea Party comes to mind, the Parti Quebecois and Reform Party in Canada (there's even a Marijuana party, no shit, Google it) . Perhaps the 2 main established parties would recognize the core of your support (assuming you have any real support for your ideals) and start to integrate those principles into their ideology. Too hard you say? Too much energy for non-guaranteed results? Yeah, you should just kill people instead right?
There are already many people who have gone public with their pro-drug stances who are not in jail - the previously mentioned Marijuana political party is one entire organization. They have a lot of support and funding from various interest groups. How do you think medicinal marijuana came to be legitimized. I disagree with you when you say these people have accomplished very little. The real battle isn't with the DEA or even a sitting government, its a battle for public opinion. My parents and generations before didn't know enough about real drug usage to have a balanced point of view. When you spout off about revenge killings, mass casualties, and Nazis and Jews you do exactly what is stereotypically expected of some crazed wild-eyed drug addict.This is not the way to win battles. It only shows how unbalanced you are.
In summary, your plan to hunt down and kill all DEA agents as a revenge tactic is not only hateful, short-sighted and plain stupid - it will result in the backlash of further violence in retribution and soon we're all polarized and killing each other is the only option. Me-thinks you speak like a spoiled little bitch that has had an easy life and is not truly aware of the consequences for which actions you so freely espouse. Your thought process is radical and extreme. It does not take into account anything other than a black and white world of Nazis and Jews. Anything taken to it's logical extreme will not make sense and you have made a smug little mockery of this principle.
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kmfewm - I love you man, you are without a doubt my favorite extremist. You're very smart, academically inclined., and probably a 23 yr old poli-sci student who has all the answers in a cartoon-ish black and white world of 'Jew' and 'Nazi' characters. You provide simplistic scenarios to complex human situations. You probably have big 'ol bunny eyes and a beautiful round head. Oh, if I could only pinch those naive young cheeks whilst gazing on you with awe and wonderment ... *ahem* on with my rebuttal;
It'll take to long to address the essay you wrote so I'll sum it up with glib short to-the-point sentences:
Yes, laws can be "muddy as fuck", that is why the courts exist, to interpret them as best they can, as given to each case presented. It is not perfect, many many miscarriages of justice have occurred, in my country as well as yours (I'm assuming you're an American), but it is so far the best system I can see. Do you have a better one in mind? One that doesn't result in dictatorial tribalism gone amuck ? Please share.
I don't believe that any law is God-like (they can and do change often) but I generally respect the laws of my country, most of them anyway, I do smoke a blunt here and there and if I got caught I would respect the law and pay the fine, just as I would a parking ticket. I'm hardly apathetic to my government, I make sure I hold them accountable to their actions by participating in the system, not screaming for blood and death. If there is an obvious wrong committed by my government OR something I disagree with I protest it and more often that not the government listens. NOTE - this does not mean I always get my way, part of what defines living in a democratic and free country means that I don't get my way all the time.
Equating the Jehovah Witness religion in Nazi Germany with drug dealing in the US is .. ludicrous. I can't seriously comment on it.
I agree with you when you say that if we write "fifty fucking letters tomorrow (sic) it wouldn't change a single god damn fucking thing". Yeah, you'd probably be regarded as a fanatic by whoever had to read all 50. BUT if we each write 1 letter and the support base was broad enough and we followed it up with demonstrations and an effective lobby group, well, you bet your sweet ass things would change. This is called 'activism' (not slactivism where you just add your signature to some chain email) and it's proven effective for instigating change in many countries word wide.
If some impressionable kid reads your spewing hatred of the DEA, gets fired up and decides to go and knock a few off, he will probably be killed or imprisoned for a long time - and you would regard him as a martyr?? Sounds a bit like some other hateful extremists we know.
I agree with you again on the wasteful spending of tax dollars on the US's 'War On Drugs". No doubt it has been funded at the expense of other social programs and that is a tragedy. So sure, in that sense we're all victims (my country also spends disproportionate amounts on drug enforcement). My point here was to say that this so-called war is a losing battle in that someone like myself - an occasional user of recreational drugs - can still find and enjoy dope. I've never had my door kicked in by Nazis, been incarcerated, overly-fined or repressed for my pro-drug opinions which BTW are no secret to anyone who knows me IRL. So no, I would not say that I (and by extension most other drug users I know) have ever been a victim of this war.
If you don't have faith in either one of your 2 established political parties to accurately reflect your values you are free to start your own grass-roots movement. It has been done before, the Tea Party comes to mind, the Parti Quebecois and Reform Party in Canada (there's even a Marijuana party, no shit, Google it) . Perhaps the 2 main established parties would recognize the core of your support (assuming you have any real support for your ideals) and start to integrate those principles into their ideology. Too hard you say? Too much energy for non-guaranteed results? Yeah, you should just kill people instead right?
There are already many people who have gone public with their pro-drug stances who are not in jail - the previously mentioned Marijuana political party is one entire organization. They have a lot of support and funding from various interest groups. How do you think medicinal marijuana came to be legitimized. I disagree with you when you say these people have accomplished very little. The real battle isn't with the DEA or even a sitting government, its a battle for public opinion. My parents and generations before didn't know enough about real drug usage to have a balanced point of view. When you spout off about revenge killings, mass casualties, and Nazis and Jews you do exactly what is stereotypically expected of some crazed wild-eyed drug addict.This is not the way to win battles. It only shows how unbalanced you are.
In summary, your plan to hunt down and kill all DEA agents as a revenge tactic is not only hateful, short-sighted and plain stupid - it will result in the backlash of further violence in retribution and soon we're all polarized and killing each other is the only option. Me-thinks you speak like a spoiled little bitch that has had an easy life and is not truly aware of the consequences for which actions you so freely espouse. Your thought process is radical and extreme. It does not take into account anything other than a black and white world of Nazis and Jews. Anything taken to it's logical extreme will not make sense and you have made a smug little mockery of this principle.
He is right you are wrong. The DEA is already killing us and many others. Shut the fuck up.
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Quazee - That's all ya got? -- "We're right, you're wrong; you shut up now" !!??
::)
... well, it's not a terribly well thought out post, doesn't really contribute anything to the thread.
Uh, I dunno what to say to you Quazee ... it's feeding time soon ... ??
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kmfewm - I love you man, you are without a doubt my favorite extremist. You're very smart, academically inclined., and probably a 23 yr old poli-sci student who has all the answers in a cartoon-ish black and white world of 'Jew' and 'Nazi' characters. You provide simplistic scenarios to complex human situations. You probably have big 'ol bunny eyes and a beautiful round head. Oh, if I could only pinch those naive young cheeks whilst gazing on you with awe and wonderment ... *ahem* on with my rebuttal;
I find it rather hilarious that you think I am naive, considering you seem to think that writing letters expressing dissatisfaction with our enslavement is the quickest way to obtain freedom. You have bought the propaganda hook line and sinker. The entire system is stacked against us. Can I teach a pro legalization class at public schools? Can I tax people and spend the money promoting drug legalization? Do I have friends making trillions of dollars, large parts of which they donate back to me, due to drug criminalization? You seem to advocate that we fight a shark in the water.
Yes, laws can be "muddy as fuck", that is why the courts exist, to interpret them as best they can, as given to each case presented. It is not perfect, many many miscarriages of justice have occurred, in my country as well as yours (I'm assuming you're an American), but it is so far the best system I can see. Do you have a better one in mind? One that doesn't result in dictatorial tribalism gone amuck ? Please share.
You think that I live in a cartoonish world but you have an extremely cartoonish view of how the government works. My guess is that you probably watch School House Rock 'I'm just a bill' for your evenings entertainment. The laws are intentionally muddy as fuck so that they can apply to anything the government wants them to apply to. Many of the laws that are not muddy as fuck are interpreted away by secret courts anyway. Of course the system I prefer is militant libertarianism, where a large and powerful group uses whatever force necessary to enforce the ideals of libertarianism. However, I can think of a great many systems far superior to what is currently in place. I would prefer a direct democracy that requires a substantial percentage of the population to back something prior to it being made law. I think that computers and encryption systems should be used more frequently in voting processes, giving everybody an easy ability to vote. I don't think that there should be a president or a congress. I don't think there should be state laws either. Let's implement a secure voting infrastructure and then strike all laws from the books. Then we will let people propose laws by getting a significant amount of support for the law to be considered. If a law is nominated for consideration, it is put up to a vote for a period of two weeks. If 80% of the people who vote on the law vote in favor of it, then it is passed as law, otherwise it is not passed as law. There must be a period of four years prior to a law being reevaluated after it is put into place or rejected. Courts should be changed as well, the first thing the jury should decide is whether or not the alleged crime is something that they consider should be criminal. If 80% of the jury determines that it should be criminal, then the case can proceed, otherwise it is dismissed immediately. The jury should also decide the appropriate sentence for the crime, not the judge and not any federal or state mandates. 80% of people will agree that it should be illegal to murder, it should be illegal to rape, it should be illegal to steal, etc. You will be much more hard pressed to find 80% of people who think somebody should go to prison for smoking marijuana. If 20% or more of the population doesn't think something should be illegal, it probably shouldn't be. Currently 50.00000001% of people (well, roughly, considering electoral college) determine some percentage of the leaders who are put into power, and the leaders put into power can essentially do whatever the hell they want. The leaders put into power also get to select some of the other leaders put into power. Currently we vote on who gets to be a part of the aristocracy, we rarely get to directly influence anything ourselves.
I don't believe that any law is God-like (they can and do change often) but I generally respect the laws of my country, most of them anyway, I do smoke a blunt here and there and if I got caught I would respect the law and pay the fine, just as I would a parking ticket. I'm hardly apathetic to my government, I make sure I hold them accountable to their actions by participating in the system, not screaming for blood and death. If there is an obvious wrong committed by my government OR something I disagree with I protest it and more often that not the government listens. NOTE - this does not mean I always get my way, part of what defines living in a democratic and free country means that I don't get my way all the time.
Your relationship with the government is apparently that of a young adolescents relationship with his or her parents.....
Equating the Jehovah Witness religion in Nazi Germany with drug dealing in the US is .. ludicrous. I can't seriously comment on it.
It is exactly the same thing. Drug users know that what they are doing is illegal , they are not forced to do it, it doesn't harm anybody and is a crime against the state, and if they do it they could be sent to prison. The Jehovah Witnesses knew that what they were doing was illegal, nobody forced them to do it and they were given a chance to promise to never do it again, what they did caused no harm to anybody and was a crime against the state, and if they continued doing it they were sent to concentration camps.
I agree with you when you say that if we write "fifty fucking letters tomorrow (sic) it wouldn't change a single god damn fucking thing". Yeah, you'd probably be regarded as a fanatic by whoever had to read all 50. BUT if we each write 1 letter and the support base was broad enough and we followed it up with demonstrations and an effective lobby group, well, you bet your sweet ass things would change. This is called 'activism' (not slactivism where you just add your signature to some chain email) and it's proven effective for instigating change in many countries word wide.
All the letters in the world are not worth the over a trillion dollars that the government and private industries make from the war on drugs. You are extraordinarily naive as to how the world really works, you are quite an idealist but it is rather disgusting to me because you are a statist idealist. The reality is far, far, far removed from your idealistic fantasy utopia.
If some impressionable kid reads your spewing hatred of the DEA, gets fired up and decides to go and knock a few off, he will probably be killed or imprisoned for a long time - and you would regard him as a martyr?? Sounds a bit like some other hateful extremists we know.
Yes, somebody who is willing to sacrifice their life to make a political point against an oppressive force is indeed a hero and a martyr. People die for political reasons all the time. When US soldiers do it they are called hero's , when non government actors do it they are called terrorists, but it is all propaganda. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. The only difference is one of them has the approval of a powerful government.
I agree with you again on the wasteful spending of tax dollars on the US's 'War On Drugs". No doubt it has been funded at the expense of other social programs and that is a tragedy. So sure, in that sense we're all victims (my country also spends disproportionate amounts on drug enforcement). My point here was to say that this so-called war is a losing battle in that someone like myself - an occasional user of recreational drugs - can still find and enjoy dope. I've never had my door kicked in by Nazis, been incarcerated, overly-fined or repressed for my pro-drug opinions which BTW are no secret to anyone who knows me IRL. So no, I would not say that I (and by extension most other drug users I know) have ever been a victim of this war.
Well lucky for you that the Nazis have never kicked your door in! On the other hand, I cannot count all of the people I know serving life or essentially life sentences for drug charges with all of my fingers.
If you don't have faith in either one of your 2 established political parties to accurately reflect your values you are free to start your own grass-roots movement. It has been done before, the Tea Party comes to mind, the Parti Quebecois and Reform Party in Canada (there's even a Marijuana party, no shit, Google it) . Perhaps the 2 main established parties would recognize the core of your support (assuming you have any real support for your ideals) and start to integrate those principles into their ideology. Too hard you say? Too much energy for non-guaranteed results? Yeah, you should just kill people instead right?
The two main political parties already have ingrained and fortified the opposite of my beliefs into their political ideology.
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kmfkewm - You reek of paranoia, you talk about propaganda and enslavement, of an unbearable system of oppression that can only be overthrown with violent rebellion .... essentially because society isn't moving quickly enough on the drug front. C'mon. We both know you're a champagne revolutionary. If you had to pull the trigger on someone you'd likely shit your pants first.
The biggest secret is that there are no secrets, not really. You talk about "them" and "The Government" as if "they" are just out to "control" everything - like out of some kind of Hollywood thriller movie. You know those are just scripts right?? Governments come and go year after year, there is no Grand Dictator running a secret police force out to "get" everyone. Your unwavering crusade for anarchy; it isn't really based on anything other than fear, and your fear has clearly bred hate when talk about death to entire group of people that are charged with law enforcement today.
Yeah, life ain't perfect, every now and then in real life a corruption scandal occurs and shows us that greed, ego, deception and avarice are an inherent human traits. There is not one country on earth where corruption on some larger scale does not happen. No matter what political system you propose you will never get around this. In light of this alone I would think it would be self-evident that a democratically elected government is better than the Feudal tribal system you propose. If you think that corruption will not play a part in your society simply because you say it won't, well, this confirms my suspicions that you are in fact a whiny scared little bitch with a comic book ego.
And my "adolescence relationship to the government" what? Are you proposing that if choose to respect a democratically elected authority than I'm like a child to a parent. wha? Is this what the world looks like to you? Maybe you have "dad' issues.
Sorry; your Nazi Germany Schtick is just old now. The only purpose it serves is to showcase extremism, and images of fear and paranoia. I mean really - you equate the current US style of government with a Nazi regime and you really mean it, straight faced.
You accuse me having an "idealist fantasy Utopia" vision of government - I don't, there is no utopia which is what you don't seem able to understand, all you know is that your vision is 'better' than anything else and you don't need to bother examining anything that you don't think is cool enough to belong in your simplistic, rigid, little box of ideals. Just kill people instead.
You still talk about Martyrs with the voice of a radical, like your crying tantrum is paramount to everything else. Other people lives don't matter cause YOUR vision should take precedence over everyone else and you will resort to violence for all, if you don't get your way.
I maintain that if you feel your fundamental values aren't being represented by any government party then start your own. This would take conviction, integrity and lots of grassroots support. It would be hard work, it would not be as cool as yelling for death and destruction. Just an FYI.
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kmfkewm - You reek of paranoia, you talk about propaganda and enslavement, of an unbearable system of oppression that can only be overthrown with violent rebellion .... essentially because society isn't moving quickly enough on the drug front. C'mon. We both know you're a champagne revolutionary. If you had to pull the trigger on someone you'd likely shit your pants first.
A. It is pretty well established that the US government spends billions of dollars a year on propaganda targeted at its own citizens
B. It is pretty well established that drug users, and others who are not doing anything against libertarianism, are systematically hunted down and enslaved
C. It is pretty obvious that writing letters is not going to stop this from happening
D. I am upset about far more than the drug war. We are also taxed which is theft, we also have all of our rights routinely violated, people are sent to prison for looking at the wrong pictures, etc. I am upset because the government has restricted the freedom of and enslaved the entire population.
E. Although I do not plan to go on a suicidal DEA killing rampage, I certainly would have no issue with pressing a magic button that causes all DEA agents heads to instantaneously explode.
The biggest secret is that there are no secrets, not really. You talk about "them" and "The Government" as if "they" are just out to "control" everything - like out of some kind of Hollywood thriller movie. You know those are just scripts right?? Governments come and go year after year, there is no Grand Dictator running a secret police force out to "get" everyone. Your unwavering crusade for anarchy; it isn't really based on anything other than fear, and your fear has clearly bred hate when talk about death to entire group of people that are charged with law enforcement today.
I mean, I can list a lot of things that the government tries to control. They try to control my ability to use drugs, they try to control what I can spend my money on by spending it "for" me, they try to restrict what I can look at, they try to restrict a fuck load of my life actually. This is all quite objective as well, you merely need to crack open a law book to see what all "they" are trying to control. Governments come and go year after year sure, when is the last time the USA had a president who was not part of the democrat or republican party? 1850! We have the choice between religious extremists and communists, and you make it seem like this means that we have freedom. Yay, we get to pick whether we are ass raped with a broom handle or a giant dildo! If we would prefer not to be sodomized we can of course write letters to our rapists asking them to please stop, I am sure they will listen. My unwavering crusade for anarchy is inseparable from my unwavering crusade for total freedom from oppression. It is not at all based on fear. The people who are afraid are the ones who support having a strong government, they are afraid of poverty and discrimination or of tolerance for those who go against their religion, and they need a powerful government to force others to conform to their political ideology. That is the difference between liberalism and conservatism versus libertarianism, liberals want to force people to accept others and force people to support others and conservatives want to force people to conform to their religious morality, whereas libertarians only want to force people to stop forcing other people to do shit! It is not possible to compare libertarianism to conservatism or liberalism because they are truly inverse ideologies, libertarianism is about freedom whereas liberalism and conservatism are just two different flavors of oppression. Also, I agree that there is no grand dictator, it is more like a council of power elites, encompassing the richest corporate leaders, the political aristocracy and their generals in military and law enforcement. The common man is given only an illusion of freedom, an illusion that you are experiencing to the point that it has caused you to be truly delusional.
Yeah, life ain't perfect, every now and then in real life a corruption scandal occurs and shows us that greed, ego, deception and avarice are an inherent human traits. There is not one country on earth where corruption on some larger scale does not happen. No matter what political system you propose you will never get around this. In light of this alone I would think it would be self-evident that a democratically elected government is better than the Feudal tribal system you propose. If you think that corruption will not play a part in your society simply because you say it won't, well, this confirms my suspicions that you are in fact a whiny scared little bitch with a comic book ego.
Sure corruption would be present even in a libertarian society. And the defenders of liberty would try their best to stomp it out. Corruption in the current system is not even considered corruption because corruption has essentially been legalized and normalized.
And my "adolescence relationship to the government" what? Are you proposing that if choose to respect a democratically elected authority than I'm like a child to a parent. wha? Is this what the world looks like to you? Maybe you have "dad' issues.
Your adolescent relationship with the government is characterized by the fact that you seem to want to ask the government permission and hope that they listen to you. I don't want to ask the government for anything, and I hope that when they try telling me shit that a force arises that tells them restricting freedom is bad, and if they wish to continue trying to restrict freedom I hope that they are violently dealt with until they stop. I don't want to negotiate with terrorists.
Sorry; your Nazi Germany Schtick is just old now. The only purpose it serves is to showcase extremism, and images of fear and paranoia. I mean really - you equate the current US style of government with a Nazi regime and you really mean it, straight faced.
The current US style of government may be more similar to East German Stasi rather than Nazi Germany, but the Nazi analogy still holds.
You accuse me having an "idealist fantasy Utopia" vision of government - I don't, there is no utopia which is what you don't seem able to understand, all you know is that your vision is 'better' than anything else and you don't need to bother examining anything that you don't think is cool enough to belong in your simplistic, rigid, little box of ideals. Just kill people instead.
Yes kill the people who wish to oppress others. I don't have the patience or the desire to try to convince vicious criminals that they should stop being vicious criminals. The government has declared a war on drugs so why is it that all of the casualties are drug users and innocent bystanders? You seem to want us to be massacred while protesting our death and enslavement in a peaceful manner. I want the war on drugs to live up to its name, currently it is the massacre of drug users.
You still talk about Martyrs with the voice of a radical, like your crying tantrum is paramount to everything else. Other people lives don't matter cause YOUR vision should take precedence over everyone else and you will resort to violence for all, if you don't get your way.
The life of drug law enforcement officers do not matter to me. If there was a magic button I could press that resulted in the deaths of all hardcore supporters of the war on drugs, and I could press that button to end the drug war, the button would be pressed without a nanosecond of hesitation on my part. I do not hold these vicious criminals in higher regard than I hold myself, and I refuse to masochistically suffer at their hands like you seem so keen for us to do.
I maintain that if you feel your fundamental values aren't being represented by any government party then start your own. This would take conviction, integrity and lots of grassroots support. It would be hard work, it would not be as cool as yelling for death and destruction. Just an FYI.
Yes and then I can get all of the drug felons to vote for me....oh but wait drug felons are not allowed to vote. There goes your fantasy of a democracy.
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To say you're not a victim means you are disconnected from the rest of humanity IMO. Maybe you are interpreting the word victim differently than me. Everything has an effect, open your eyes and maybe you will see that one day!
SealTeam - I'm not following you at all. What's your point? That all of us are victims and if I disagree then I'm "disconnected from the rest of humanity" - this is a very vague reference to ... some kind of teen rebellion thing. I maintain that I have not been victimized by anyone or anything. I get up and go to work, I pay taxes, I enjoy my life, sometimes I do drugs. I don't always agree with what my taxes fund but I do respect the legitimacy of an elected government to do what they believe is best. If enough of us don't like it we simply vote them out. If our lobby was big enough and organized enough then we could legalize soft drugs tomorrow. The problem is youth doesn't vote, if they did we would have had Amsterdam style coffee houses everywhere by now.
I know that's not as cool as saying "Fuck the politicians and kill all the police" but the alternative - picking up a gun and playing God - is ludicrous. The war on drugs is a farce and there have certainly been some victims, but I'd guess the majority of people in jail for drug related offenses knew that drugs were illegal before they started dealing.
For the record, my definition of a victim is someone who has been forcefully and negatively subjected to the will of another without any recourse. And no, governmental laws do not fall under that definition as we all have a say in electing who gets power and their laws are transparent - meaning that police can't just pick you up for unclear reasons, if they do there are laws to protect you from being persecuted. Additionally, no western government will prevent its citizens from emigrating if they don't like the laws where they live.
I don't think you understand or respect history, or know what you are even talking about.
You think voting will answer all the problems? It's not that I don't agree that voting is important and can make a difference, but violence and voting go together well in this country. Check civil rights out buddy! Heads were cracked on all sides! You want change you have to crack a few eggs, its a sad fact! It rarely is done peacefully!
Don't wait till the violence starts to understand that you are a victim in the war!
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There once was a time when a crime was considered a "Felony" because it was of the nature where the perpetrator would basically be a real danger to society, and the label of "felon" was reserved for those who committed murder, rape, robbery, and other actions that directly harmed (physically and/or financially) or in some way damaged the livelyhood, reputation or self-respect of one or more other persons. A person convicted of a felony was generally a dangerous person, and even if/when they were released from prison and had successfully completed a phase of being on parole, they would never be able to return to society and live a so called "normal" life. A good part of this being due to that in many or all states, a convicted felon was no longer able to exercise their right to vote, their second amendment right to own a gun would never be restored (which may have made sense back when those convicted of a felony were convicted as such because they truly were dangerous and had used violence against others and might do so again).
Prior to the made up "war on drugs" convicted felons made up a relatively small portion of society at large. Once the WOD and all the new and extremely broad laws that accompanied it became official, that ratio changed drastically. Given, there have been, are and will be some people who will go through an entire lifetime completely unscathed by the WOD in any way, probably remaining mostly oblivious to it as well. But most people at some point in their lifetime have already or will become a victim of it either directly, or indirectly as a family member, friend, or other relationship to the direct victim, and to varying degrees - depending on each persons circumstances, will experience a negative impact on their life that would not otherwise occur. And while plenty of murders, rapes and other violent crimes go unsolved... no person accused of committing any infraction of a drug law (whether or not they actually did), shall go unpunished.... and that punishment, regardless of the extent of it and how it's carried out, once deemed to be a convicted felon - the majority of those drug war victims labeled as felons have never harmed anyone or shown that they ever intend to - the label will follow them for the rest of their natural life and make it impossible or at best very difficult to return to the same lifestyle that was taken for granted prior to accusation day. The same restrictions will apply to these people as do to the murders and rapists of society. Their right to vote taken away for a period of time ranging from equal to that which they spent incarcerated plus the time spent on parole (or if not physically incarcerated, the time equal to that which was spent on probation, in drug courts and any other court ordered federally financed "programs") to the rest of their life - depending on which state they are in and the current voting eligibility laws of said state. They will never again have a right to exercise their 2nd ammendment right - regardless if there was no violence or gun involved or related to their accusation day. They will be no longer even considered for many jobs that they are otherwise qualified for... making it difficult or even impossible to legally support themseves and their families. This is especially detrimental to those who had held a professional degree - such as a doctor or lawyer or any other occupation that requires an advanced degree and a license, as all drug war victims are automatifcally stripped of all government issued licenses - it's not limited to just their drivers license which is also completely unfair to take away especially when the DW victim often isn't even in a vehicle at the time of accusation. Although drivers licenses can usually at some point be legally restored, other licenses that are necessary for those who earned them for their chosen profession are not so easy to restore.
Not everyone has or will become a victim of the drug war, but everyone is vulnerable to become one (directly or indirectly) at any time, in any place. Sadly, most people don't concern themselves with something that "only happens to other people"... until it happens to them. But then it's too late as once the accusation is made, their quality of life will never be the same. And being that they will forever after be stripped of many of the rights and privileges they once took for granted, the window of opportunity to have possible been an effective part of a solution will have closed for good >:(
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Some of the most astonishing naivete ever in this thread. I agree that it makes our community look bad. If I didn't know better, I'd say this was a false flag operation, it's actually disturbing that it's not.
@wackamnblu - you must have a lot of free time to try that hard to explain common sense. there's no explaining nuance to anyone who will only see black and white.
FWIW I'd support seizing LE pensions and vacations properties as reparations.
I have also publicly advocated at townhalls or all-candiates forums: complete legalization to federal and provincial level types, and total non-enforcement on a municipal / local / county level. I've never faced any negative consequences for doing so, and I am well-known in my community as the opinionated guy who is in favor of drug legalization and against environmentalists and in favor of family law reform and against Indian-owned casino development and so on. None of those are mainstream issues, and I've never even gotten a dirty look from a cop or the mayor or a hospital administrator or any representative of state power for holding any of those views. Hell, I have a long criminal record (only partially for drugs) and have been bankrupt and nobody oppresses me for it. The only real consequence I've faced is not getting in to the USA. There is simply no truth to some of the hyperbole expressed above.
I believe that the sad reality is that the War on Drugs has lasted so long is because a substantial part of the population supports it, at least in part or in theory. There is no pro-Government oppressor class vs pro-freedom enslaved class. That sort of clear dichotomy simply doesn't exist.
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A. It is pretty well established that the US government spends billions of dollars a year on propaganda targeted at its own citizens
B. It is pretty well established that drug users, and others who are not doing anything against libertarianism, are systematically hunted down and enslaved
C. It is pretty obvious that writing letters is not going to stop this from happening
D. I am upset about far more than the drug war. We are also taxed which is theft, we also have all of our rights routinely violated, people are sent to prison for looking at the wrong pictures, etc. I am upset because the government has restricted the freedom of and enslaved the entire population.
E. Although I do not plan to go on a suicidal DEA killing rampage, I certainly would have no issue with pressing a magic button that causes all DEA agents heads to instantaneously explode.
If by propaganda you mean advertising and "awareness" campaigns then yeah I suppose your government may sanction that, I'm not sure as I don't reside there. But surely you don't think that overall people are stupid enough to eat it all up hook line and sinker? Clearly they don't as many many people still use drugs. This however is where the real battle occurs if you could counter the propaganda with awareness campaigns of your own that showcase only the facts about drug consumption than you'd be a respectable force in the war on drugs. I promise you, no Nazis will kick in your door and drag you into the night for promoting this vision.
Drug dealers are still jailed, yes. They are not enslaved (although I admire your verbal attempt at propaganda). Enslavement would mean an entire lifetime of working for no wages. They would never get out of prison, yet the vast majority of drug related offender do get out within a few years. Still sucks, I'm not debating that this is a good thing, but "The Government" did not put them there. Existing laws that are transparent for all to see, are responsible for drug related incarcerations. Change the law and you change the destiny of these people. Laws do change everyday, this is not impossible.
Writing letters accompanied by high profile protests, demonstrations and lobbying do change things. This is a fact. The only debatable part is how much public support can be gotten and how much push back do you get from people with opposing views. I suppose if you had a magic button to press that would simply kill everyone that you disagreed with that would work too. Better hope they don't also have that magic button ..
Equating taxation to theft is just stupid. Did you use the roads today? Ever needed a hospital or ride in public transit? Has the Fire Department ever assisted someone in your neighborhood? - taxation in its best form is a way to re-distribute wealth for the public good. No one person is going to agree with every single thing that tax dollars are allotted to. This is the crux of politics - how to collect and spend tax dollars.
I mean, I can list a lot of things that the government tries to control. They try to control my ability to use drugs, they try to control what I can spend my money on by spending it "for" me, they try to restrict what I can look at, they try to restrict a fuck load of my life actually. This is all quite objective as well, you merely need to crack open a law book to see what all "they" are trying to control. Governments come and go year after year sure, when is the last time the USA had a president who was not part of the democrat or republican party? 1850! We have the choice between religious extremists and communists, and you make it seem like this means that we have freedom. Yay, we get to pick whether we are ass raped with a broom handle or a giant dildo! If we would prefer not to be sodomized we can of course write letters to our rapists asking them to please stop, I am sure they will listen. My unwavering crusade for anarchy is inseparable from my unwavering crusade for total freedom from oppression. It is not at all based on fear. The people who are afraid are the ones who support having a strong government, they are afraid of poverty and discrimination or of tolerance for those who go against their religion, and they need a powerful government to force others to conform to their political ideology. That is the difference between liberalism and conservatism versus libertarianism, liberals want to force people to accept others and force people to support others and conservatives want to force people to conform to their religious morality, whereas libertarians only want to force people to stop forcing other people to do shit! It is not possible to compare libertarianism to conservatism or liberalism because they are truly inverse ideologies, libertarianism is about freedom whereas liberalism and conservatism are just two different flavors of oppression. Also, I agree that there is no grand dictator, it is more like a council of power elites, encompassing the richest corporate leaders, the political aristocracy and their generals in military and law enforcement. The common man is given only an illusion of freedom, an illusion that you are experiencing to the point that it has caused you to be truly delusional.
Your understanding of government is blurred. I don't think you can differentiate the difference between current laws and a sitting government. To you they seem the same. While a government is capable of creating laws, no one branch dictates them. I won't get into how its all setup but there are many checks and balances to ensure that no one entity - legislative, judicial, or executive, has monopolistic control over law making. It sounds though like you believe that there are simply to many existing laws that restrict your freedom to .. *lets take a look at what you wrote* ... ".. look at what you want". I'm not sure what has been denied to you in this arena. The only thing I can think of would be child pornography, of which I think the vast majority of people will agree, is harmful to children and ought to be illegal under any political system. Aside from that, maybe you should campaign to eliminate or alter existing laws. But I get the sense that even that would not be enough for you only because you so casually espouse extremism with words like enslavement, oppression, fascism and the whole Nazi/Jew thing. I fear you're a radical zealot now. That you will never look at the over-all big picture or integrate into a system that encourages your participation. You will only be satisfied when people die, or when only your vision is imposed on everyone else. Go ahead and wish for your magic button.
Sure corruption would be present even in a libertarian society. And the defenders of liberty would try their best to stomp it out. Corruption in the current system is not even considered corruption because corruption has essentially been legalized and normalized.
Why are you so sure that in your libertarian system the "defenders of liberty" will try their best to stomp out corruption? I mean if there are no laws how can somebody be corrupt? If we all have absolute freedom to do whatever it is that we want to do, who are you to tell me that my actions are corrupt? If there is no governing body that we all recognize, that has the ability to pass binding laws that we all respect, then how will we ever agree on what constitutes good and bad for the greater good of the people? Actually you may be onto something, I'd live in this society, BUT only if I had substantial control over whatever it was that we agreed was currency. I could do pretty much whatever I wanted. My opposition would call me a feudal tyrant, but I would just know better.. now where is my magic button ..
Your adolescent relationship with the government is characterized by the fact that you seem to want to ask the government permission and hope that they listen to you. I don't want to ask the government for anything, and I hope that when they try telling me shit that a force arises that tells them restricting freedom is bad, and if they wish to continue trying to restrict freedom I hope that they are violently dealt with until they stop. I don't want to negotiate with terrorists.
I don't actually ask for permission when I smoke a blunt. I just do it. This is where things aren't as black and white as you want. I respect the majority of laws but I still smoke contraband. I know that it's illegal and I also know that if I get caught I won't be 'enslaved' or 'oppressed', no terrorist or Nazi is going to exterminate me.
The current US style of government may be more similar to East German Stasi rather than Nazi Germany, but the Nazi analogy still holds.
This just illustrates your single-minded blanket approach to everything you don't like. Its all extreme. I will agree with you that throwing drug offenders in jail is extreme also, however these laws and punishments can be undone. Killing people cannot be undone.
Yes kill the people who wish to oppress others. I don't have the patience or the desire to try to convince vicious criminals that they should stop being vicious criminals. The government has declared a war on drugs so why is it that all of the casualties are drug users and innocent bystanders? You seem to want us to be massacred while protesting our death and enslavement in a peaceful manner. I want the war on drugs to live up to its name, currently it is the massacre of drug users.
Your proposed libertarian system has all the hallmarks of oppression inherently built right in. Who polices the overwhelmingly wealthy who will do anything they wish in a lawless land.You seem to think that private 'security' firms will take care of that. What's to stop these firms from collusion? Now you have to pay 'protection' money to the strongest, most armed force. Furthermore, in the current system, not one person has ever been sentenced to death because of drug dealing. There is no 'massacre' or 'slaughter' of peaceful pro-drug protestors. There certainly have been miscarriages of justice whereby some psycho DEA agents have wrongfully killed people while raiding them. No one disputes this is wrong, public opinion is on your side here.
The life of drug law enforcement officers do not matter to me. If there was a magic button I could press that resulted in the deaths of all hardcore supporters of the war on drugs, and I could press that button to end the drug war, the button would be pressed without a nanosecond of hesitation on my part. I do not hold these vicious criminals in higher regard than I hold myself, and I refuse to masochistically suffer at their hands like you seem so keen for us to do.
You and your magic button again. Presumably if this existed than it would be available to your opposition as well. Through fear, paranoia and hate, magic buttons would kill us all. You don't seem able to grasp this either, that violence breeds violence. If we all had nuclear weapons, there would be someone who would detonate theirs first if only so someone else couldn't get their way. That person would justify their action as righteous and good. They would use extreme radical words like 'oppression' and 'tyranny'. That person is you.
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If by propaganda you mean advertising and "awareness" campaigns then yeah I suppose your government may sanction that, I'm not sure as I don't reside there.
If by advertising and "awareness" campaigns you mean forcing all children at public school to learn that smoking marijuana will make them impotent, using MDMA one time will kill them or taking LSD causes chromosome damage, and encouraging them to turn in their parents or friends if they use drugs, then yes that is what I mean. If by "advertising" you mean spending billions of dollars to put these messages on television, on websites, on the radio, in comic books, etc, then yes that is what I mean. If by "awareness and advertising" you mean giving grants only to scientists who falsify studies supporting the war on drugs, then yes that is most certainly what I mean. If by "awareness and advertising" you mean colluding with the media to spread disinformation about drugs, then yes that is most certainly what I mean. I like to lump all of this "awareness and advertising" together under the title of "propaganda" but seeing as you are a brainwashed statist fucktard I can see why you would want to call it "advertising and awareness", which is of course a euphemism, which is part of propaganda in itself.
But surely you don't think that overall people are stupid enough to eat it all up hook line and sinker? Clearly they don't as many many people still use drugs. This however is where the real battle occurs if you could counter the propaganda with awareness campaigns of your own that showcase only the facts about drug consumption than you'd be a respectable force in the war on drugs. I promise you, no Nazis will kick in your door and drag you into the night for promoting this vision.
Of course overall people are stupid enough to eat it all up hook line and sinker! Jesus fucking Christ, do you think that marketing and advertising has no end result? If it had no end result we wouldn't see Coca Cola commercials or Pepsi commercials, why would they spend billions of dollars advertising if it had no end effect? Just for the fuck of it? Propaganda is proven as highly effective at swaying the desires and beliefs of a very significant segment of the population, different people are susceptible to different degrees and to different strategies, but the majority of people in the world are influenced to some extent by propaganda messages. When you have one of the richest most powerful governments in the world dumping billions of dollars into anti-drug propaganda, and using their ability to control school curriculum to spread their propaganda as well, and using their influence over the media to spread propaganda as well, and using their influence over which publishing scientists gets grants as well, you bet your god damn ass that it has an overall effect on people. Thinking otherwise just exposes your complete and total naivety, you really live in such a fucking fantasy world that it literally sickens me thinking that there are people out there who are as completely drunk on the kool aid as you are. I really wish you were just a troll! Additionally, many people drink Pepsi even though Coca Cola spends billions of dollars on advertising, but if Coca Cola did not advertise it is essentially proven that a fucking lot of people would start drinking Pepsi who currently drink Coca Cola. I highly suggest that you go to school and take a marketing 101 class.
Yes countering propaganda with true education (hell, or even with more propaganda!) is an effective strategy that I entirely support. Guess what though, the military and intelligence agencies (CIA in particular) are heavily involved in spreading propaganda in foreign countries, but it doesn't mean that they stop killing the enemy soldiers! Also you are naive as hell to think that drug legalization activists are not singled out and targeted by the US Gestapo. I already know you will argue that they are not arrested for being drug activists but rather for being drug users, but only a truly blind idiot would think that the activism is not what causes them to be singled out for further investigation.
http://www.ktvb.com/news/politics/Medical-marijuana-activists-children-taken-from-home-charges-pending-204966741.html
BOISE -- Three publicly known medical marijuana advocates say police took their sons away from them this week while investigating allegations involving marijuana. Their sons were considered by law enforcement to be in imminent danger.
The medical marijuana advocacy group called "Compassionate Idaho" has appeared in several recent news stories as members have circulated petitions looking for a vote to legalize medical marijuana. Now, its leaders are being investigated, and they say their kids were put into foster care.
"They took my children. Due to cannabis being present in the house," Lindsey Rinehart, Compassionate Idaho's Executive Director, said.
Lindsey and Josh Rinehart and Sarah Caldwell have been very public in their efforts to legalize medical marijuana. On Tuesday, they say when they got back to the Rinehart's after a trip -- their baby-sitter was there, but their four sons were all gone.
"They say their goal is to return our children to our home once it is deemed safe. They say our children will be in foster care for 30 days," Lindsey Rinehart said.
According to the search warrant Rinehart showed KTVB, her home was being investigated for possible charges of marijuana trafficking, possession and injury to a child. She vehemently denies trafficking or putting kids in danger.
"We were not dealing. We were not buying. We were not selling. We were not growing," Rinehart said.
Caldwell's two sons are back with her now, but the Rineharts say their two boys are still in foster care. The activists say everything started at their kids' elementary school earlier this week.
"Somebody said that somebody brought cannabis to school, that somebody ate the cannabis, that somebody reported it. That it was tossed around on the playground," Sarah Caldwell said.
Lindsey Rinehart continued their story: "So they decided basically, who would have cannabis in their home. Now if you're the chief petitioner to legalize medical marijuana, where would you go with that?"
The Rineharts say police then searched their home, seized marijuana, and took their children, declared in imminent danger.
"They went through my house. They removed all of my cannabis that I use for medicine," Lindsey Rinehart said. Rinehart suffers from Multiple Sclerosis.
The Rineharts say their kids have been well-educated about marijuana, that it is medicine not for them to touch. Now, Lindsey Rinehart says she's personally given up medical marijuana. She says her MS symptoms have already started to return.
"Even if I could access cannabis, which I can't, and won't because I'm cooperating with CPS, I want my children back. I'm going to have to go back on a whole bunch of really toxic medication," Lindsey Rinehart said.
Though she says she will not be keeping marijuana around because her priority is doing anything to get her children back. She does plan, alongside the others, to keep fighting for legalization.
"We are going to work on getting our children back. And we are going to work on education. And we are going to work on getting medical marijuana laws in Idaho so this doesn't happen to any more people," Lindsey Rinehart said.
No charges have been filed in this case. Because of that, Boise Police said it could not offer much information; however, a spokeswoman did confirm officers are currently working on the case with prosecutors, who will determine if any charges will be filed.
KTVB contacted Health and Welfare on this story. While a spokesman could not comment on a specific case, he did offer insight about guidelines for recommending a child be removed from a home.
The spokesman said if illegal drugs are found in a home, they look at whether they're accessible to the kids. They also look at if drug activity impacts ability to parent. Police make decisions on if kids need to be taken, and he said the courts work with agency recommendations to determine the return of children.
The Rineharts and Caldwell say other medical marijuana advocates have started to reach out to them and have so far donated more than $5,000 to help pay for legal expenses. Click here for more information.
Drug dealers are still jailed, yes. They are not enslaved (although I admire your verbal attempt at propaganda). Enslavement would mean an entire lifetime of working for no wages. They would never get out of prison, yet the vast majority of drug related offender do get out within a few years. Still sucks, I'm not debating that this is a good thing, but "The Government" did not put them there. Existing laws that are transparent for all to see, are responsible for drug related incarcerations. Change the law and you change the destiny of these people. Laws do change everyday, this is not impossible.
It is not propaganda to say that drug users are enslaved! If somebody is put into a prison cell and told when to wake up, told when to eat, told what they can and cannot do, and they have their freedom highly restricted, then they are fucking enslaved! Not to mention that at many prisons you are essentially forced to work for literally pennies an hour if you want any pseudo-luxuries at all, like pieces of candy instead of bland oatmeal for breakfast, a cheese sandwich for lunch and a bowl of soup for dinner. So you think that the blacks who were freed from slavery prior to their deaths were never really slaves? I am pretty sure that would be widely rejected by all sane people. One does not need to have been a slave for a lifetime to have been enslaved, and thinking otherwise is just God damn ridiculous. Also you seriously must be fucking with me to say that the government did not put drug users in prison. Did the Nazis not put Jehovah Witnesses in the gas chambers, because they CHOSE to not renounce their faith? It is a perfect analogy in this case, and indeed I suspect that you will once again continue to act so offender by this perfect analogy that you don't even try to counter it. What you are saying is analogous to saying that the Jehovah Witnesses put themselves in the gas chambers and that we should not hold the Nazi war criminals responsible for what they did.
Equating taxation to theft is just stupid. Did you use the roads today? Ever needed a hospital or ride in public transit? Has the Fire Department ever assisted someone in your neighborhood? - taxation in its best form is a way to re-distribute wealth for the public good. No one person is going to agree with every single thing that tax dollars are allotted to. This is the crux of politics - how to collect and spend tax dollars.
Haha later on in your post you say something along the lines of 'in a libertarian world we will be forced to pay protection money to the most powerful agency', but then you argue that it is good that we have to pay protection money to the most powerful agency in a Statist world, because you think taxation is not theft when the government does it but it is totally theft if it is done in a world without a government. Talk about philosophically inconsistent and totally unprincipled, or perhaps just straight up fucktarded I suppose. Roads can be privatized, hospitals are largely privatized, public transit is largely privatized, fire departments can be largely privatized. All of these arguments are boring, old, unoriginal and fucking straight up stupid as shit. In Soviet Russia the government made the shoes, are you telling me that we should be taxed because otherwise who will make the shoes? Yeah essentially you are, and it honest to God just makes you sound like a fucking idiot.
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Your understanding of government is blurred. I don't think you can differentiate the difference between current laws and a sitting government. To you they seem the same. While a government is capable of creating laws, no one branch dictates them. I won't get into how its all setup but there are many checks and balances to ensure that no one entity - legislative, judicial, or executive, has monopolistic control over law making.
Yes the king, his wife and their children all can work together to pass the laws! Freedom! Checks and balances! First of all there are only two main political parties, and they agree on 90% of the issues, and they make damn sure that no other political party has a snowballs chance in hell of gaining any significant power at all, and they also all collude with the police. You are damn naive as hell if you think that there are really checks and balances. You totally buy into the idealistic image that is presented to you rather than looking through the lies and seeing the fucking reality of the matter. First of all the various branches select who is part of the other branches to some extent, the Supreme court judges (who are insanely powerful) are nominated by the president and then confirmed by the senate. The president is whoever the electoral college selects from either the Democrat or Republican party. It is a fucking oligarchy and only a fool would think otherwise. No one entity has control over law making, but two parties have 100% complete control between them, and it is also theoretically possible for a single party to obtain complete control as well.
It sounds though like you believe that there are simply to many existing laws that restrict your freedom to .. *lets take a look at what you wrote* ... ".. look at what you want". I'm not sure what has been denied to you in this arena. The only thing I can think of would be child pornography, of which I think the vast majority of people will agree, is harmful to children and ought to be illegal under any political system.
Look, I am not going to turn this into a victims of the war on CP thread because we have already had enough of those. So I will keep my response to this concise. The constitution of the United States of America promises freedom of speech and freedom of the press. The Supreme Court said that child pornography is not protected speech, because:
1. The government has a very compelling interest in preventing the sexual exploitation of children.
Viewing child pornography is not sexually exploiting children. I imagine that the government also has a very compelling interest in preventing the violent exploitation of adults, but the Supreme Court has never said that it is illegal to view videos of people being murdered. For that matter, the government has a compelling interest in preventing the sexual exploitation of adults, but there are no specific laws against rape pornography featuring those over the age of 18, rather they must first be classified as obscenity (obscenity laws are another violation of the right to free speech). Let's see what the Webster dictionary, the authority on English words, has to say about the word exploiting:
A. To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor.
It is a bit of a stretch to say that viewing child pornography is making use of children selfishly or unethically. Making use of their images perhaps, but the people making use of the children are the pornographers themselves. The matter of ethics is entirely subjective, but the argument that every time a picture of CP is viewed it causes the depicted child to be molested all over again, is purely rubbish. There is nothing unethical about viewing an image of anything, and I would love to know why it is unethical to view a self taken picture of a 17 year old girl flashing her mirror but it is ethical to view a picture of the genocide of millions of people. Doesn't the government have a compelling interest in preventing the genocidal exploitation of the masses?
B. To advertise; promote.
Advertising and promoting are actually entirely different from viewing. If I view a major motion picture it does not mean that I am advertising it or promiting it.
2. Distribution of visual depictions of children engaged in sexual activity is intrinsically related to the sexual abuse of children. The images serve as a permanent reminder of the abuse, and it is necessary for government to regulate the channels of distributing such images if it is to be able to eliminate the production of child pornography.
Distribution is different from viewing, and in fact even distribution of visual depictions of children engaged in sexual activity is not intrinsically related to the sexual abuse of children. For example, it is illegal to view a self taken image of a 17 year old flashing her camera phone. In some cases the images are not even documenting abuse by any stretch of the imagination, also images of the holocaust serve as a permanent reminder of mass genocide but any sane person would agree that it is unconstitutional for the government to ban such images. Additionally, it is very clear that it is not necessary to attack distributors or viewers of child pornography in order to prevent child sexual abuse, and various leading experts on the subject have stated quite clearly that there is no evidence for the market model of child pornography leading to abuse, the groups involved in production and possession are very distinct with little overlap, and indeed having channels through which child pornography is made available has led to LOWER levels of child molestation in EVERY STUDIED COUNTRY WHERE CP POSSESSION IS LEGAL.
3. Advertising and selling child pornography provides an economic motive for producing child pornography.
Sure, and advertising and selling child pornography have absolutely nothing to do with viewing child pornography. It should be illegal to fund the molestation of children, it should be illegal to instruct others to molest children, but it is *clearly* unconstitutional to restrict a persons ability to view child pornography. Just nobody gives a fuck because they are so against it. So even when we have CLEAR CONSTITUTIONAL COMMANDMENTS protecting peoples right to view child pornography, the Supreme Court can just interpret the constitution away as they see fit. It is actually a PERFECT example of the government being in total control and the people having their constitutional rights blatantly violated.
4. Visual depictions of children engaged in sexual activity have negligible artistic value.
This is entirely subjective and not even true. Visual depictions of children engaged in sexual activity can very well have significant artistic value. In many cases it will not have artistic value IN MY OPINION, but it is entirely possible for it to. In fact, I believe there are several images of nude underage children that have been declared as legal by the courts and not child pornography due to the fact that they were recognized as having artistic value. In non CP related cases of obscenity it is up to a randomly selected Jury to determine if a given image or video is obscene (although obscenity laws are also clearly unconstitutional).
5. Thus, holding that child pornography is outside the protection of the First Amendment is consistent with the Court's prior decisions limiting the banning of materials deemed "obscene" as the Court had previously defined it. For this reason, child pornography need not be legally obscene before being outlawed.
So because according to the Supreme Court all CP is inherently obscene, it does not need to be found as obscene by a jury, unlike all other obscenity. Something tells me you will be hard pressed to find a jury that thinks pictures of teenagers flashing their mirrors are particularly obscene, but the Supreme Court decided that in cases of CP it doesn't matter what the jury thinks because they have determined that all nude or sexualized images of anyone under the age of 18 are inherently obscene (oh but feel free to fuck the shit out of 16 and 17 year olds if you live in over half of the USA, just don't take pictures of it because that is definitely obscene and abuse and omfg).
Aside from that, maybe you should campaign to eliminate or alter existing laws. But I get the sense that even that would not be enough for you only because you so casually espouse extremism with words like enslavement, oppression, fascism and the whole Nazi/Jew thing. I fear you're a radical zealot now. That you will never look at the over-all big picture or integrate into a system that encourages your participation. You will only be satisfied when people die, or when only your vision is imposed on everyone else. Go ahead and wish for your magic button.
Hell maybe I should campaign to eliminate or alter the existing unconstitutional freedom restricting uneducated ill founded CP laws. the war on drugs is a tragedy but the war on people who view CP is even worse as they are given life long sentences and labels and it is just as completely fucking baseless and propagandized as the war on drugs is. Campaigning to end the war on drugs or the war on CP viewers is borderline a waste of time for all of the reasons I already stated, not to mention the largest groups of people who would support me are BANNED FROM VOTING. You are essentially saying that I should rally for changes in laws that if people break they are BANNED FROM VOTING. Do you get that? People with felony drug charges CANNOT VOTE IN THE MAJORITY OF THE USA, SOMETIMES FOR LIFE. You say that we are free to campaign and get the laws changed, sorry as soon as we are drug felons we cannot do shit to directly influence politics. I am not espousing extremism I am espousing the simple fucking facts of the matter. We are enslaved, we are oppressed, the government is totalitarian and totalitarian governments lead to situations where Nazis exterminate the fucking Jews.
Why are you so sure that in your libertarian system the "defenders of liberty" will try their best to stomp out corruption? I mean if there are no laws how can somebody be corrupt?
Fine, if not corrupt then criminal. There are still criminals in a libertarian society. The difference is that they have actually caused harm to somebody.
If we all have absolute freedom to do whatever it is that we want to do, who are you to tell me that my actions are corrupt?
Nice stawman, no libertarians say that anybody should have absolute freedom to do whatever it is they want to do. Libertarians only say that people should have absolute freedom to do whatever it is they want to do provided they initiate no *DIRECT* force against others in doing so.
If there is no governing body that we all recognize, that has the ability to pass binding laws that we all respect, then how will we ever agree on what constitutes good and bad for the greater good of the people? Actually you may be onto something, I'd live in this society, BUT only if I had substantial control over whatever it was that we agreed was currency. I could do pretty much whatever I wanted. My opposition would call me a feudal tyrant, but I would just know better.. now where is my magic button ..
LOL in a free market libertarian society there is not likely to be something like the Dollar. The things used as currency will likely be backed by gold or mathematically ensured scarcity such as Bitcoin. These things would already be major competition to the dollar if not for the fact that the US government demands its protection money be paid to it in dollars, and makes life difficult as fuck for anybody who has any financial instrument that it cannot easily control.
I don't actually ask for permission when I smoke a blunt. I just do it. This is where things aren't as black and white as you want. I respect the majority of laws but I still smoke contraband. I know that it's illegal and I also know that if I get caught I won't be 'enslaved' or 'oppressed', no terrorist or Nazi is going to exterminate me.
Really? If I am caught smoking a blunt I could very well go to jail for several months, during which time I will not be free to go about my life, which to me seems to pretty clearly indicate that I will be fucking enslaved. I will be told what to eat, when to wake up and what to do all day. Additionally, I will need to pay fines and pay to attend all kinds of classes that I don't want to go to (propaganda classes...or should I say "forced awareness and advertising classes"), which means I will be robbed and kidnapped and enslaved if I am caught smoking a blunt. This is oppressive and it is not a stretch to compare my oppressors in this scenario to Nazis, sure they are not quite on the same level of monstrosity but they are just a skip and a hop away. In the case of CP viewers the government is much closer to Nazi as CP viewers are often sentenced to prison where they are tortured, raped and sometimes killed.
This just illustrates your single-minded blanket approach to everything you don't like. Its all extreme. I will agree with you that throwing drug offenders in jail is extreme also, however these laws and punishments can be undone. Killing people cannot be undone.
1. You cannot undo the mental damage caused to somebody by locking them up in a small cell with hardened criminals for months or years, and that you think this can be undone just shows your complete fucking naivety
2. Who wants to undo the killing of the Nazi soldiers? I sure as hell don't.
Your proposed libertarian system has all the hallmarks of oppression inherently built right in. Who polices the overwhelmingly wealthy who will do anything they wish in a lawless land.You seem to think that private 'security' firms will take care of that. What's to stop these firms from collusion? Now you have to pay 'protection' money to the strongest, most armed force. Furthermore, in the current system, not one person has ever been sentenced to death because of drug dealing. There is no 'massacre' or 'slaughter' of peaceful pro-drug protestors. There certainly have been miscarriages of justice whereby some psycho DEA agents have wrongfully killed people while raiding them. No one disputes this is wrong, public opinion is on your side here.
Good god dude you are so fucking naive that it literally hurts me. What is to stop the current police agencies from collusion? Do you think that the FBI, DEA, IRS, ICE and all of the local police forces are not already cooperating with each other and colluding? We already have to pay fucking protection money to the strongest, most armed force, it is called taxation by the United States government. But oh when THEY do it then it is not paying protection money to the strongest force, but if we live in a libertarian world then it totally is! God your inconsistency is truly pitiful and shows that you are completely unprincipled. But of course you can just make shit up to paint a picture however you like it, so that you can always be right, just like the Supreme Court did when they said viewing CP is not protected by the constitution. There is indeed systematic slaughter of drug users by the proponents of the war on drugs. Every time somebody overdoses on PMA mislabeled as MDMA it is a death attributable to the lack of regulation caused by the prohibition of drugs, and therefor it is equal to chemical warfare against drug users. Every time somebody gets infected with HIV because of outlawed needle exchanges, it is biological warfare against drug users. Not to mention the drug users and innocent bystanders who are raided by the paramilitary drug enforcement troops and shot to death with bullets. We are captured and sent to die in prisons, we are under chemical and biological attack and we are stormed by soldiers and shot at on a regular basis. They don't call it the WAR on drugs for no reason. But because we are so largely pacifists it is not a WAR on drugs rather it is a MASSACRE OF DRUG USERS AND INNOCENTS. TENS OF THOUSANDS OF US ARE BEING KILLED EVERY YEAR, IT IS FUCKING MASS EXECUTIONS, BY PROXY AND DIRECTLY. AND YOU WANT US TO WRITE LETTERS TO OUR ATTACKERS ASKING THEM TO STOP! IT IS FUCKING INSANITY!
You and your magic button again. Presumably if this existed than it would be available to your opposition as well. Through fear, paranoia and hate, magic buttons would kill us all. You don't seem able to grasp this either, that violence breeds violence. If we all had nuclear weapons, there would be someone who would detonate theirs first if only so someone else couldn't get their way. That person would justify their action as righteous and good. They would use extreme radical words like 'oppression' and 'tyranny'. That person is you.
YOU are the one who doesn't seem to grasp that violence breeds violence! THEY ARE USING VIOLENCE AGAINST US AND YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD NOT USE VIOLENCE AGAINST THEM!
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YOU are the one who doesn't seem to grasp that violence breeds violence! THEY ARE USING VIOLENCE AGAINST US AND YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD NOT USE VIOLENCE AGAINST THEM!
You know it's interesting... I'm incredibly sympathetic to your positions; I generally agree with you on at least what the ideal ends (if not necessarily the means to those ends) should be... and yet it occurs to me just now, you really don't believe that violence and force should be used *solely* because they are the quickest or only means to the end you seek. You want to indulge in your instinctual desire for revenge. That's very understandable... I think we all do. I think we'd all like that very, very much -- those of us who've seen friend's lives destroyed faster and more permanently by "justice" and "rehabilitation" than any crimes they ever committed, anyway.
But we can't do that. We musn't do that. Ever. That's how we got here. That's how just looking at a bunch of 0s and 1s that are interpreted and painted as a naked child on a computer screen became very nearly as bad as kidnapping that child and taking the pictures yourself: they're both disgusting things to do, and people hate disgusting people who do disgusting things. They lump them together. People don't want anyone to be so disgusting, and they don't want to accept that some people just plain are. They're also mostly incapable of accepting that it's only their own perspective, and it's no more just to be disgusted than it is to not be (provided no one's harmed, obviously).
But that's exactly the reason why we can't lump them together the same way. As long as they don't hurt anybody, they *must* be tolerated. The pedophiles, the circus freaks, the woefully retarded, the malformed and cursed and ostracized and every other manner of disgusting creature ever to have the genes of a human. They *must* be tolerated. Even if they *do* hurt others, punitive damage is not justice. It's justified revenge. It serves no good. It certainly doesn't rehabilitate, that's for damn sure. It -- er... I'm getting off track with this, aren't I... that's neither here nor there, never mind.
What I'm getting at is that this tolerance extends to those who would do us harm: they must be tolerated. This is *not* to say they must be allowed to do us harm or that we shouldn't defend ourselves, nor am I saying that we shouldn't -- if necessary -- forcibly restrict their freedoms so that they are unable to continue to hurt us. But that is all that should be done: prevention of future harm. Not visiting harm upon them in response. That just ends up with an extra person being harmed, and people who are harmed generally -- wait for it, wait for it now...! -- wish for revenge (i.e. to harm others). That's... pretty silly to knowingly continue doing, don't you think?
Now getting to a point where the ones with the power would choose to restrict the right people and not the ones doing no harm... well, that's another matter entirely. Necessity is a bitch sometimes; if there's no other way, then there's no other way. But I don't think there's no other way. I don't think you do either though. You just don't think there's any *faster* way, is that correct?
To jump straight to violence and revenge is to do the same exact thing that got us where we are: ignore logic and rationality in favor of our baser desires. Do you really not agree that society -- any human society -- will never be able to reach its most ideal state without a real commitment to logic and reason? More of one than just abandoning them when convenient for our own personal indulgences, I mean?
I guess what I'm asking is... do you not agree that your motivation is in part as reprehensible as those you seek to visit justice upon? I mean that's exactly what *they're* doing. I'm curious and sincerely asking what your perspective is on -- well, on yourself, basically.
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???
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we all are,who winning this war ??? c.i.a,capitalists,africa,silk road,slums,america,f.b.i,nature,famine,war,MONEY!! :-[
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kmfkewm,
I just don't have the time to spar with you anymore. By wishing death on people it is clear that you are a hateful person. You've used about as much extremist vocabulary and ideology as you can to justify your campaign of deathful vengeance. This is exactly what evil zealot terrorists do. They are blinded by a simplistic black and white version of some kind of alternate reality whereby if only everyone else just agreed with them, all would be 'better', regardless of who must die to get there.
There is no compromise for you, you will never be convinced of anything, only converted. And when you convert to something you will adhere to it's principles to the utmost extreme even if the end result is insanity. You are a smart and worthy debater. I'm guessing that you're a young man in his 20's, mildly autistic and very impressionable however your views and opinions are strong and most likely will not change.
I can only hope that when you mature you will choose to participate in the political system and fight for what you so strongly believe, in part because I do share some of your beliefs. (not the death to all LE part) and in part because I think you will find it far more personally rewarding when you see the results of your efforts and not the debris of your destruction. A more tragic outcome would have you join or start some kind of violent group of broken souls and unleash death upon those who you believe deserve it.
For my part, I have lived in many countries worldwide and in 2 places in particular I have seen real jackboot thugs (you'd almost be right in using your Nazi parallel) intimidate opposition and systematically murder "enemies". The only justification needed to kill others was that they represented opposition to ideals. In Mexico police are killed when they don't let libertarian drug dealers traffic their dope freely. The drug barons say they have a right to produce what the market wants, the police say the law says otherwise. It's not about who is right and who is wrong, it's about how to balance competing interests. This balance is best done inside a political system of sorts, not by simply picking up a gun and going Rambo.
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Yes we should totally organize the people who are not allowed to organize (because they are felons and cannot be in contact with each other) to get people who cannot vote (because they are felons) to vote for change. That sounds like a damn good plan. You see, this is why people like you are so dangerous. You are all for the rule of law, but once certain populations are legally prohibited from changing the laws then you are indistinguishable from a totalitarian. I think we should get laws passed saying that anybody who is a member of a church is banned from voting, we should make Bibles illegal and after people are arrested with a Bible they cannot vote because they are felons. As soon as this becomes law it is nice to know that there are brainwashed fucks like you who will support it, and start telling the Christians that the law is the law and that they should work within the political system that they are barred from being a part of to bring about change. After all, if they want to be a part of the political system they should stop going to church and reading the Bible, it isn't the governments fault that they are marginalized!
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Prism anyone :o