Quote from: abitpeckish on May 19, 2013, 10:04 pmQuote from: SelfSovereignty on May 19, 2013, 09:53 pmHere's what you seem to be missing: my sense of morals may be different than your own, which in turn may be different than the next fellow's, and so on, and so on. I assumed that what you consider to be moral behavior was based on the majority of people agreeing with said behavior. You value happiness for all. That's wonderful. It's also absolutely no better than a serial killer who doesn't give a fuck about anyone. His feelings differ. What makes yours better -- and please don't say that yours bring about more happiness, because that's a goal that your sense of morality causes (or that you otherwise innately desire by virtue of your biology): you can't claim that yours is better than his because yours fulfills its own goals.If you're not willing to allow that "the least possible suffering for all conscious organisms" would be better than any other possible outcome, then there's indeed nothing I can say to you to move you from your position. I can only point out that this position is either solipsism or nihilism.As I understand those two words, what I'm saying has nothing to do with nihilism and only marginally or remotely to do with solipsism...? I'm really quite curious to understand your position -- not just trying to win a debate or something -- because this is something that seems so blatantly obvious to me that I can't really understand how anyone can miss it. It's perplexing, to be frank, and I hate not understanding things.Do you really not see my point, namely that your desire for all to benefit and be happy is no more valid, or just, or right, or moral, or any other word in the English language, than those of someone else who has desires that differ from your own? I mean they're both equally valid: you desire everyone to be happy. So do I. But not everyone does. There are people who desire that everyone suffers. I mean they're out there somewhere or other right now. I just don't understand how someone can miss that there's absolutely nothing that says our desires are somehow just plain better? I mean of course they're better by our standards, but... fuck our standards: you can't just say "mine are better because they fulfill their own goals," I mean -- so does the guy who wants to hurt everybody. His desires fulfill their own goals too.Do you not agree, or do you just accept that it's better for everyone to be happy because you just want it to be better?