Quote from: hee57 on March 19, 2013, 09:55 pmQuote from: SelfSovereignty on March 18, 2013, 03:27 pmWill power can't sustain you the rest of your natural life if you're hooked badly. You'll give in eventually. Everyone does. Why do you think AA/NA work for people? Because it gives them reassurance that not using is the right thing. It gives them an atmosphere full of people who don't use and who say you shouldn't, and who are basically okay being clean. People feed off each other. We're social animals.NA doesn't help because it somehow magically enhances your willpower. It isn't voodoo; people don't relapse again and again and again because they have momentary slips and their willpower fails them "just that once." It's because willpower, for almost every one, isn't enough. If you're counting on will power to break your addiction, I'm sorry, but IMHO: you are totally fucked. Find another way, because if you don't, you'll die an addict & still using.NA/AA doesn't help much though. Their retention rates suck and the 12-step plan is bullshit. They tell you that you have no control and should trust some higher power with it all. People do have the will power, no matter how much of a pull there is or how difficult it is. Telling them they have no control helps justify when they do fuck up and most of them do.Well, AA just made me want to get drunk and party more... but I wasn't talking about me personally. I also agree completely that their method is bullshit, especially for an atheist. But it's undeniable: it does help some people, which means it's an option worth trying if you want to stop. Really I was just throwing it out there to point out what I meant.My logic is really pretty simple, but it's not very obvious. In fact it's incredibly unintuitive, given that people like to think they're in total control of their actions at every moment in time. So just try and look at it from a different perspective for a minute. Avoid empathy, just look at the facts of what's going on.You'll agree with me, I think, that putting something someone wants very badly in front of them increases the chance that they're going to give in, right? I mean that's pretty undeniable, I think. But there's a problem here -- I thought willpower was always enough? If that's true, then there shouldn't be any situation anywhere at all -- ever -- that will cause someone who has decided to stop doing drugs, to actually take them again. Period. If iron will is enough, if saying "I will never do this again," is enough, it should be impossible to tempt someone into taking drugs.... so how exactly does putting the drug in front of them increase the chance they'll do them? How does it make them more tempted to do the drugs? That isn't logical. It doesn't make sense, unless willpower is not always enough. It's enough to get *some of the way*. You need to decide to stop, of course. You need to be committed to resisting temptation. But beyond that decision, you have to use your intellect. You have to accept that there is a point where you will break. You will give in. You will not be able to resist in any situation, only in some situations. Therefore you must avoid any situation that will prove too tempting.I'll say it again: willpower alone is not enough. Maybe you'll get lucky and never get tempted badly enough to relapse without even trying. That's awesome if it happens. But my point is simply that willpower alone is not enough. We're hedonistic creatures. We avoid pain and seek pleasure. Drugs give pleasure, and will fails at some point.