Silk Road forums
Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: Fa11Up on May 07, 2013, 05:42 am
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What are your thoughts on the subject? Chances of a global economic collapse occurring? Why? When? What do you hypothesize will occur?
Is bitcoin the solution? Or a spark toward the solution? Or irrelevant? Etc. etc. I don't know. Throw your thoughts around here. I'm interested in seeing how people on SR/the darkweb/whatever feel on the subject.
I originally posted this thread in the Newb section but of course there was no input.
I don't know who here pays attention to global currencies.. But the world HAS actually been moving towards having a singular currency.... In my opinion.
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We'll have a war, civil or otherwise, which will then mutate into a netwar. Then we'll have cryptoanarchy. Afterwards if I survive I shall create wildlife parks to give some of the best animals a well earned break.
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a widespread war is the easiest solution to economic problems in the beloved capitalist system. If there werent nukes that could wipe us off the planet, we would have been in WWIII a while ago, imo
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We'll have a war, civil or otherwise, which will then mutate into a netwar. Then we'll have cryptoanarchy. Afterwards if I survive I shall create wildlife parks to give some of the best animals a well earned break.
I hope so, the question is when and what will it take to be the spark that ignites the powder keg of government.
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the problem is the use of interest. I give to people with the most money almost unlimited power.
Taking more and more money from somebody as interest if somebody cannot pay.
Is like kicking somebody to death while he´s already down.
That why in Islam interest is forbid and so is tax
Wish you all the best
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What are your thoughts on the subject? Chances of a global economic collapse occurring? Why? When? What do you hypothesize will occur?
Is bitcoin the solution? Or a spark toward the solution? Or irrelevant? Etc. etc. I don't know. Throw your thoughts around here. I'm interested in seeing how people on SR/the darkweb/whatever feel on the subject.
I originally posted this thread in the Newb section but of course there was no input.
I don't know who here pays attention to global currencies.. But the world HAS actually been moving towards having a singular currency.... In my opinion.
Hmmm...
Egypt and Syria have been cutoff from digital communications on many occasions during the Arab Spring that continues to wreak havoc on the Middle East--affecting countries who are receiving refugees and other turmoil. I don't think BTC will be much of a "solution" for the masses, since power and communications will be severely disabled or nonexistent in a truly global recession.
Food, water, and security, are probably the top three for a serious economic depression. During a global economic recession: BTC, precious metals, etc.
Guns & ammo, food, water, and community are probably key to stability--if social order is in question. Power hungry technology will not be the key to restoring order when people are busy trying to survive; it will only help those who already have money and power.
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the problem is the use of interest. I give to people with the most money almost unlimited power.
Taking more and more money from somebody as interest if somebody cannot pay.
Is like kicking somebody to death while he´s already down.
That why in Islam interest is forbid and so is tax
Wish you all the best
Many of us think the Islamic position on financial matters is inaccurate. Take microfinance for example, as conducted in Bangladesh, India and elsewhere in the world where Islam is often practiced. By and large it has been a huge success for many business minded Muslims, yet it depends on riba.
In historical context the ban on usury makes more sense, Christianity also had it banned for centuries as well at the same time. Interest rates were extraordinarily high by today's standards and most people wouldn't have had any collateral anyway. The majority of debt obtained today is through consumerism, it is self imposed through things like credit cards, not thrust upon people. That does not make it less onerous for those who possess it, but nevertheless it is true. And in most western countries, one can declare bankruptcy, and start over again, so there is a natural limit to how much "kicking" gets done.
I'm opposed to the high levels of personal debt people have in western society, but I attribute this to a combination of lack of self control in combination with central bank manipulations resulting in a poor savings rate, not the existence of interest rates themselves. We shouldn't have much sympathy for those unable to prevent themselves acquiring new iPods and apartments they can't afford. I mean you cannot outlaw stupidity as tempting as that would be.
In addition, in a society with few children, it is necessary to have a larger pension pot for those who retire, and that means bonds. Without bonds you can forget about having a pension, the stock market is too risky and savings aren't enough. If you can think of a way to price money with respect to time without using interest rates, let me know, because I can't think of one.
P.S. The green camel in SR's logo is called "Amal" for Amal the Camel, our ungulate undercover operative! I think it means hope in Arabic, we named him last year :-)
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This Amal means hope. And its a nice name. I like it. I just wonder the one how came up with it those he speak Arabic.
If he does I would like to talk to him in Arabic of course.
And you are right.
In a other world that is not motivated by buying more means being happier. A world that is not motivated by pure profit. A world with high moral values. Consumerism would lose it appeal. And the power that rule and control the mass profit by keeping the mass a stupid as possible. So a well educated society striving to achieve high moral standard where Riba is prohibited would at some point reach a point where every thing would be beter.
I lost my point.
But any why interest and use of the human stupidity combined with interest is used to keep the people in financially slavery.
PS might I ask how do you know about Riba?
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Watch Vice on HBO episode 6 and it shows how China is building ghost towns and empty sky-scrapers to boost it's GDP. They have a replica of Paris that has a 2% occupancy rate. 50% of China's GDP is in real estate.
Doomed.
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What are your thoughts on the subject? Chances of a global economic collapse occurring? Why? When? What do you hypothesize will occur?
Is bitcoin the solution? Or a spark toward the solution? Or irrelevant? Etc. etc. I don't know. Throw your thoughts around here. I'm interested in seeing how people on SR/the darkweb/whatever feel on the subject.
I originally posted this thread in the Newb section but of course there was no input.
I don't know who here pays attention to global currencies.. But the world HAS actually been moving towards having a singular currency.... In my opinion.
Hmmm...
Egypt and Syria have been cutoff from digital communications on many occasions during the Arab Spring that continues to wreak havoc on the Middle East--affecting countries who are receiving refugees and other turmoil. I don't think BTC will be much of a "solution" for the masses, since power and communications will be severely disabled or nonexistent in a truly global recession.
Food, water, and security, are probably the top three for a serious economic depression. During a global economic recession: BTC, precious metals, etc.
Guns & ammo, food, water, and community are probably key to stability--if social order is in question. Power hungry technology will not be the key to restoring order when people are busy trying to survive; it will only help those who already have money and power.
+1 brother.
Modzi
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This Amal means hope. And its a nice name. I like it. I just wonder the one how came up with it those he speak Arabic.
If he does I would like to talk to him in Arabic of course.
I came up with it, but I didn't know it had a translation until somebody else pointed it out. I don't write or read Arabic, it is too difficult for me.
And you are right.
In a other world that is not motivated by buying more means being happier. A world that is not motivated by pure profit. A world with high moral values. Consumerism would lose it appeal. And the power that rule and control the mass profit by keeping the mass a stupid as possible. So a well educated society striving to achieve high moral standard where Riba is prohibited would at some point reach a point where every thing would be beter.
I lost my point.
We agree that high moral standards are necessary for society to achieve an optimal outcome. Many disagree on which standards to choose from, but everybody agrees having a, I shall say: code, is important.
However the problem is getting there. Getting people to live up to their ideals. It's a 1000 year question!
My philosophy is that one cannot tell people what to do for this reason. It works for a while, people can certainly achieve discipline through central direction. The problem is a subtle one. By using a code you introduce systemic trouble into society. One group of people have total sway over public opinion because we all begin to think the same way. This leads to bad results as a collective, even though it helped people initially at the level of individuals.
The capitalist answer to this problem is laissez-faire. By allowing people to choose from a variety of ethics, morals, you lose some social cohesion, but you introduce great flexibility. Society learns much faster from its mistakes. It's not perfect and has the obvious disadvantage of introducing lazy and errant thinking into society (and Justin Bieber) but in the long run it makes for stability in society.
To put it another way, it is always tempting for us to make decisions on behalf of others, especially when you are right and you know this helps the other person, but by doing so you turn these people into adult children. A society of brats!
So, yes, all those people with huge consumer debts are making a horrible mistake. But they are also learning painful lessons they will be loathe to repeat. Saving in America among the poor is rising for the first time in a long while for example. Allowing people to fail has large advantages.
The other side to this, is that it is also the fault of central banks for manipulating interest rates to a lower level than they should be.
I cannot tell you laissez-faire solves that problem, since it is not a problem caused by my philosophy but a different one.
But any why interest and use of the human stupidity combined with interest is used to keep the people in financially slavery.
Sure. But every society in history has a "slave class". The difference is today in most societies people chose to be enslaved with debt. In return they have higher levels of stress but they also have food to eat and shelter and much more independence than any other slave in history.
PS might I ask how do you know about Riba?
I read everything.
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Watch Vice on HBO episode 6 and it shows how China is building ghost towns and empty sky-scrapers to boost it's GDP. They have a replica of Paris that has a 2% occupancy rate. 50% of China's GDP is in real estate.
Doomed.
Of course. Even without any central direction we could expect some down cycles for different economic sectors. Since China has adopting the world's largest quantitative easing program of all the governments, it shall reap the consequences of opportunity cost. People have been predicting the end of China's growth for decades now, but it doesn't detract from the salient point being that all market economies crash, and all market economies manipulated by central direction store up even more trouble for themselves. I cannot say what will happen in the future, but I think the dog on the street intuitively realizes no economy grows forever in a straight line. Any down cycle shall be a great test for the Chinese people, I hope they manage to tough it out without too much conflict.
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Dear Pine.
I understand you point.
My conviction as a Muslim is like this. A true Islamic society would be based on believe in Allah
And Islam strive to uphold high moral values and have a good character.
Believe would be based on 3 thing fear, love and hope. Those three would motivated the people to work towards
high moral values.
I explain fear. the fear of punishment from God. Would prevent people from doing bad thing
I explain hope. the hope for a reward from God would motivated people do good thing.
And love of God would balance out two.
Then an Islamic society would strife to educated it people the highest level of there ability in Islam there is is knowledge that obligatory on every Muslim to know.
This does not work so well any more because most off the Muslims now are ignorant and wishing to remain that why. But does who are not do strive and work to achieve them.
For people to change there must be a real reason for self preservation. Fear is used correctly can work wonder.
Example is there would there be no fear of getting got drunk driving of stealing I believe there would must more if this happening all over the world.
Still it does not prevent some from still doing that for what every reason.
You mentioned you read every thing. Did you every read to Quran?
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Watch Vice on HBO episode 6 and it shows how China is building ghost towns and empty sky-scrapers to boost it's GDP. They have a replica of Paris that has a 2% occupancy rate. 50% of China's GDP is in real estate.
Doomed.
VICE: one of the best news programs on television today. Fucking love you, Bill Maher!
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So China is all about looking good. But no real substance to back it up?
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The global economy is based on a number of things that are ultimately mythological creations of the financial systems and not anything truly substantial. I absolutely fear that at some point in the near future, this concept is going to collapse. Maybe its a natural disaster (horrible), maybe its acceptance of futility and the legalization of certain things (wouldn't that be nice...). Or, maybe its another global weather phenomenon that reduces the worldwide grain output to a small percentage of what it is today. We are due for a reset. We have gotten comfortable with certain things that just need to be fixed, and until its no longer reasonable to ignore their very existence as problems... they won't be addressed. We throw money at things (war on drugs?) in the US that accomplishes nothing and only does more to add to the violence and harm, and not to the real problem they are supposedly trying to help. We're getting involved in conflicts that are silly, while ignoring conflicts that are absolutely disgusting crimes against humanity. We rely on systems of waste, and we do nothing serious to curb this dependance... because what we're doing works today. Someone, somewhere, is going to fire the first bullet... or find the wrong (right...) accounting books. Someone is going to find a document, or a reporter is going to release a photo. I have no idea what, but we're overdue, and honestly I'm not really afraid of it coming - I'm more afraid of the fact that there is no clear answer as to what or where it is.
Once that happens and the dust clears, I expect there will be some new unifying charge towards something. Probably another world war. I don't think we have matured enough for our next step yet... and I don't think we've got the balls or the drive to get to that next step without our natural desire to beat the enemy. I see the same thing in music from my eyes. In the 60s, 70s, and 90s, there were very clear social concepts that were very much a part of the musical scene. Now, there isn't all that much... and music has suffered from it. I just don't think we're actually trying for the next step, because I don't think there is anything really threatening us to get there. We are best in the worst times, and we are lazy and useless in the best times.
A concept that I see in Star Trek that is underhandedly spoken of many times by non-human races, is the human tendency to an ego. We always think and/or want to be the best, and the second we see someone in the room that probably is better than us, we immediately try as hard as we possibly can to supplant that person for our spot back. I see the same thing in the world today, whether it be country to country, or even internally in our own societies. Whether it is in politics, economics, business, even law - we all want to be right, we all want to do or be the best... I don't really see a lot of "We are all human, lets agree that as humans we have the achievement level of humans."
Equality being what it is based on that, I somewhat disagree on the idea that ideals, if everyone followed them to a T, the world would be a better place. Everything (even this thread) is a debate to us. Whether we base our morals and ideals on religion, science, upbringing, education, or even personal reason... every one of us has a different interpretation from person to person. I might open the door for my girlfriend, whether its a car or the house - and even a best friend that has seen and complemented me on that will laugh the next time he sees it, simply out of his equal disbelief. We are all unique.
Honestly, I don't see that difference going away until we're given that other side - which is why I mentioned star trek before. I don't think humanity will ultimately show any peaceful uniting until it is humanity versus someone else. Even if our first contact does end up a peaceful one, until the general consensus changes from "My country is better than your country!" to "Our planet is better than your planet!" we won't see an Earth wide stability.
That being said, I really don't like that this is my answer. I hate the idea that WAR is the source of our greatest triumphs as humanity. It bothers me. I really can't reconcile this fact either, I don't honestly know what better a drive to move beyond it... is, other than war itself. It truly is the fire under the ass that gets things moving - it is the ultimate motivation.
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That being said, I really don't like that this is my answer. I hate the idea that WAR is the source of our greatest triumphs as humanity. It bothers me. I really can't reconcile this fact either, I don't honestly know what better a drive to move beyond it... is, other than war itself. It truly is the fire under the ass that gets things moving - it is the ultimate motivation.
It isn't. This is a conservative myth for the right and left. Or at least it's not what you might imagine. The reason why there is a great explosion of technology in a war between serious nation states is simple: the government is hiding the best technologies relating to defense/offense.
If you know the history of cryptography, then you know this for a fact, it is not a guess. Huge advances are kept hidden by nation states so they can be used as trump cards in a war. It happens in every industry. In fact cryptography is an *entire industry* which was kept secret! That's an extreme example, but it points to an important general invisible truth.
So it is not that the technology appears because people are motivated, it is that the use of the technology suddenly becomes public all at once.
In a world such as panarchy, this doesn't happen to the same degree and society could be much wealthier because of it. No matter how motivated the society, the fact is that economics is what makes technology applicable to everyday life, and since we can have guns or we can have butter, it doesn't matter if we put trillions of dollars into making quantum computers or rail guns, because we are depriving another area of the economy from production, which ultimately manifests itself in less technological development somewhere else in the economy, thus hindering overall technological growth. War time development comes at an epic opportunity cost which is invisible because it is an alternative reality.
The reality is that almost all progress is evolutionary, depending on a steady drip of slight improvements. A true revolution is rare indeed, most are simply the illusion of a rapid change. It is true that nuclear and space technologies would have take a lot longer to develop, perhaps even the better part of a century (although I doubt this too), but it would have happened more organically and productively for all.
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Dear Pine.
I understand you point.
My conviction as a Muslim is like this. A true Islamic society would be based on believe in Allah
And Islam strive to uphold high moral values and have a good character.
Believe would be based on 3 thing fear, love and hope. Those three would motivated the people to work towards
high moral values.
I explain fear. the fear of punishment from God. Would prevent people from doing bad thing
I explain hope. the hope for a reward from God would motivated people do good thing.
And love of God would balance out two.
Then an Islamic society would strife to educated it people the highest level of there ability in Islam there is is knowledge that obligatory on every Muslim to know.
When a society has a small number of people interacting, this works well. It is a set of principals at the level between individuals.
But once you scale up to many millions of people, especially when they are interacting a great deal more, this system breaks down. Moral codes do have real, almost physical limits related to demographics.
Having a code is important, but its not a sufficient prerequisite for effective governance of society. There are too many people and too much information for a code to perform the same task globally as it would for smaller communities. FWIW I also think the same of democracy, this isn't specially a critique of Muslim society at all. I think a lot of our current economic dysfunction has its roots in the failures of democracy to adequately address the real problems of people.
This does not work so well any more because most off the Muslims now are ignorant and wishing to remain that why. But does who are not do strive and work to achieve them.
I would say this to be expected, and many of the most respected leaders of your system are largely to blame for most Muslims failing to live up to the standards they should. Most of them still believe in some quasi socialist economic dream that has never panned out. The new generation is almost as bad, but through simple ignorance. They have not been imaginative or creative enough to help their own. Those who are best positioned in society have the responsibility to look out for those less intelligent or fortunate. You need a better way to scale up basically, a new Islamic route to maintain values in a more complicated system. That shall probably mean becoming a great deal more sophisticated on issues of economics. I have noticed that practically none of the Muslims I know personally are educated about things like global trade, international finance. This is despite the fact most of them are excellent business people and hard workers, but seem adverse to becoming actors in these other areas that could make them a good deal more wealthy.
On a more general level, the economies of the Middle East apart from Israel are very concentrated in certain sectors. This causes social problems which make it very difficult for people to be following any manner of moral code. It is just realpolitik.
Put simply; I think the best approach is a Islamic interpretation of free market capitalism. I think this is happening, I think a lot of younger Muslims realize that this is the way to go, because as you probably know there is a huge upsurge in Islamic financial systems in the past decade. Hopefully that should in the end encourage a diversification of businesses instead of concentrating in one or two sectors. Too much concentration in a small number of industries is one of the key reasons why social instability exists in places like Iran, Bahrain and elsewhere.
Then, if you get the economics right, the rest should follow. It is much easier for people to be good to each other if they have enough to eat, if they are independent they can respect each other more and so on. Morality depends on some level of empathy, introspection, either learned from others or developed personally, and you cannot be introspective without money. It might not be everything and I'm not saying you need a great deal of it for this to be true but without any most people cannot be good. I doubt many people want to believe this but it is true.
For people to change there must be a real reason for self preservation. Fear is used correctly can work wonder.
Example is there would there be no fear of getting got drunk driving of stealing I believe there would must more if this happening all over the world.
Still it does not prevent some from still doing that for what every reason.
You mentioned you read every thing. Did you every read to Quran?
I have read one or two surahs but not the entire book. I didn't mean to imply I literally have read everything, just that I read widely :)
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Reply.
In an ideal Islamic society. The community would be formed around a mosque. Which would function as a place of worship a place of gathering and as a court house. Because the people of the same neighborhood would gather in the same place every day there would be a great deal of social control. So if people would misbehave the would be advised to mend there was. As a saying for the Prophet explain the religion is sincere advice. But this advice should never be giving in public because that would not be the correct way.
And about Muslim no a days most are lazy. But not in a sense that the dont do any but in a sense that there a easily content. I pray I fast paradise is mine. Forgetting that a big part of Islam is about a ways striving to be the best in every thing and that also means in this worldly live. As Ali ibn abu Talib said.
Work for the next life like you expect to die today and build your worldly life like you expect to live a thousand years.
And about most Middle Eastern economies being focused on only one or two economic sectors that is because. Most if not all Middle Eastern states are controlled by a oppressing unjust corrupt dictatorial regimes. So people have good ideas for exploring new ventures. But are simply not allowed to do that.
Because the misters get bribes from foreign cooperation so that the product are imported so those misters do not allow the people start for example there own car industry. The irrigation of Egyptian desert by the huge amounts of water that lay beneath it. So that Egypt can grow it own food.
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the problem is the use of interest.
You cannot eliminate interest from society until you eliminate time preference from human nature. Good luck with that.
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I suspect that I will see a global collapse of society in my life time. Every country has a system based on infinite, unlimited growth. A concept that came out of the industrial revolution. Well, the revolution is over. We don't have unlimited resources. We must, as a planet, live with in our means or face complete chaos.
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We currently live under an inflationary monetary system, with a debt based currency. $100 of gold is absolute payment, you own an asset. A $100 bill is an IOU, it's the promise to be paid in the future. ie a debt based form of money. Inflationary currencies have been very good to the west, we get cheap goods from overseas and send out inflation to countries with trade surpluses. However it is not sustainable long term. Google "triffin dilemma". Every dollar of debt must be paid back with a dollar of new debt, and the fraction reserve system guarantees a never ending expansion of the monetary supply. This can only work until a loss of confidence occurs in the reserve currencies ability to pay back debt. That time is coming, and when it does countries will no longer accept bonds to balance trade imbalances, they will only accept a real asset, be it gold oil or something else.
What replaces this current system is unknown, but i believe we will switch back to a deflationary form of money. This slows growth because it encourages saving rather than spending, which is very bad for our current consumerist society. Deflationary forms of money favor savers, inflationary favors debtors. In the not too distant future i think everybody will come to understand exters pyramid a lot better than they do now, and people in the west will relearn what those in the east have never forgotten: you cannot trust your government with your money, SPEND their currency, but SAVE in gold ( or some other kind of deflationary money, maybe bitcoin?)
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We might reach abundance before then which will certainly minimize the need for any currency to replace what we currently have. We'll see. The documentary "Zeitgeist" has some good information and opinions on this. Also check out "Collapse" another documentary on the collapse of the current system.
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"I explain fear. the fear of punishment from God. Would prevent people from doing bad thing
I explain hope. the hope for a reward from God would motivated people do good thing.
And love of God would balance out two".
For this to work, 'god' would have HAD TO demonstrated these behaviours and it's clear ''he/it' never has!
And as pine mentioned, with their usual well balanced and informed opinion, stating such a belief system only 'works' in small groups where you cant really hide from the observation of others, on any larger scale, being governed by ones 'peers' becomes untenable! And they're absolutely correct. I doubt ANY community larger than 1000 people, 'religious' or otherwise, would be able to maintain such a method of 'government' successfully outside of a highly organized 'martial' aka 'military' system. That's just my opinion ...
It's REALLY not in the interests of TPTB to see any economies 'collapse' ... IF it were, we would have seen several countries already broke! The main 'thing' the PTB want is MORE 'power and control'
What really freaaks me out is the way these 'elite' crew are 'raised' to 'believe' it is their 'right' to be in a position of 'authority' over EVERYONE ELSE!!! Seriously, there ARE groups of people whose numbers are probably <1000 people, who are members of these family 'dynasties' ... names like Rockerfeller, Rothschild and Bildeberger immediately spring to mind.
The endocrination of these people's kids, is, IMO 'as bad' as the worst fanatical muslims teachings, it's just as 'unbalanced' ... just in another way, and both are likely to have an extremely negative impact on those they condemn! IMO these 'elite' families have a hugely distorted opinion of their 'rights and obligations', they are often ruthless in achieving their 'targets' and have absolutely no concern 'negatively impacting' upon people in general.
The development of 'in-corporation' by Queen Lizzy the first was the beginning of the 'plan' by the late, great families of the past few centuries. The banking families always knew their business was a long term one that was best carried on by future generations, and consequently the children were highly 'groomed' into their positions by their parents.
And they made very long term plans once the family dynasty was established. Most of what we see going on in todays world was 'planned' over 60years ago. Those once secret plans are no longer so secret but there's SFA anyone can do about their 'success' so far!
The ONE thing they didn't take into consideration was the rise of personal computing and the internet itself. This has become TPTB/elite's worst nightmare as information is shared amongst people 'uncontrolled' by them! The lack of control spins them out as things like wikileaks can (and do) appear.
As you can see they're pedalling as fast as they can to 'get control' in as many ways as they can imagine, TF for ToR and the darkweb, SR and everyone who uses it (that's not LEO connected)
I think we are heading into unprecedented times where historical experience is no longer applicable to many global issues. As much as I hate to bring up a topic like 'Global Warming' the thing that needs to be considered is, whether the temp is going up or down, it's not staying constant and human activities are definitely having an impact!
The REAL questions here are "wtf to DO?" . . . many people are aware of the 'problems' but sadly very few people have come up with viable alternatives to the current 'systems' used in today's economies, systems like our current "world financial/stock/currency markets" and the banks that facilitate them, and they certainly dont want to stop doing business!
I think the attitude of 'too big to fail' is absolutely ludacris and anyone who accepted this as exactly the type of naive constituent that sadly seem to be a majority. why so? IDK! ignorance maybe? However at the same time it is a tacit acknowledgement that there ARE 'powers behind the throne' which have a major influence on policy!!
Although many of us are no longer 'surprised' by this knowledge, it IS quite frustrating to become aware of such organized manipulation of global affairs, and have absolutely no answers or alternatives to this madness! The emergence of Btcs and other 'decentralized e-currencies' has been a shining light in the development of potential methods re; the future of commerce .... and as pine suggest, laissez-faire, . . hopefully!
The possibility of having a genuinely 'fair' market where values of products are honestly based upon 'real supply and demand' factors, uncontrolled and untaxed, is the most exciting thing we've seen in a while, and you can see how uncomfortable they have made the 'establishment'!!
IMO the current PTB are actively involved in maintaining the status quo, although I have No Idea what their 'plans for the future' may hold?? Nothing good I'd imagine! ;O)
Possibly the worst thing that 'could' happen is a massive solar storm frying a large part of the worlds electronics! Even if 'only' 30% of high voltage transformers were put out of commission, those places could be waiting a few YEARS before they can get a replacement as there's not really such a thing as a "generic" traansformers, AFAIK the are all purpose built for a specific set of parameters, and as such are not easily replaced.
Such an event would cause, a massive breakdown with communications and subsequently all facets of distribution! This WOULD CAUSE social meltdown no unlike down in New Orleans post hurricane Katrina! And that shit went on for much longer than the media covered,
Hey if there anyone here who went through that or any other major natural disaster I'd love to hear your opinion on this, esp how people behaved during this shit. We have been in a few floods and a bushfire but aside from collateral damage we never felt like we wouldn't be able to get enough to eat or somewhere to sleep, and so it was maily 'inconvenient' rather than truly life threatening in any way. Sure we were 'lucky' but that 'luck' came a lot from acting on knowledge we'd actively obtained.
After the bushfires, it was very surprising to hear how few people had some type of 'plan' for if a fire came! In fact it seems as if quite a lot of people "preferred" not to discuss possible negative events as they "didn't want to go there" becoz they'd rather not "bring them into the picture" in any way, as thinking and talking about them is "just asking for" bad luck/disaster etc!
Amazing! It's changed somewhat now, but seriously this was only a few years ago and folks who had lived in the bush for a while had never really considered what they would DO IF a bushfire were to threaten their property! All the folks who had actually been born and bred in the bush did have clear ideas about what they would do, however most of them had family who Had been through fires before and realized the need for giving them a bit of consideration!
IMO it seems this attitude permeates all their thinking! shiit!!
Anyhoo that's my three bitcoin fifty's worth! hope it was worth the read!
mighty mixed muddled motek
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A few thoughts from me:
Yes we are in the mist of a global crisis. You can describe it in many different ways depending on which perspective you are looking at it from. The common factor is that we as people, nations, nature are deteriorating. The reason for this is our understanding of reality. We believe that it is ok to have people dying from hunger in the world. We think it is ok to slaughter animals so we can eat them. We think it is ok to wipe off rainforests to make way for crops so that more animals can eat so we can eat them. We think it is ok to wage war killing millions of civilians so that we can force people to live according to our model. And so on. It's all about who we are as a humanity. We have a disturbed understanding of reality and that disturbance feeds in into the world we live in. I believe there is a lot of manipulation involved (read David Icke on this) however the silver lining is that more and more people are waking up to the illusion. And when you do, you simply stop contributing to the "system" not because it is the cool thing to do, but in your core you are changed and you don't get the urge to be part of it. And I believe part of the reason why there is so much upheaval nowadays (a lot of it manufactured, like destroying countries through economically unsound austerities, or destabilizing countries to go after "evil" dictators when only a couple of years those same dictators were just fine according to the people who are attacking them) is because the "elite" at the top realize that once the people realize their true power (which we are doing) it is game over for them. So the global crisis is just one huge act of desperation in my eyes by the elite. And because of that I'm hopeful that humanity will pull out of this.
With regards to Bitcoin, in the same terms, I believe it's all down to what we make out of it. If as a collective we dismiss it as a romantic monetary idea that can't work, well it won't. If as a collective we embrace it and believe in its value (I personally do - how cool is the fact that it doesn't have anything to do with the mainstream banking system that is responsible for the economic crisis) then it will flourish, no matter how hard some interests will try to block it.
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that's what makes Btc SO good my friend, being decentralised, and 'controlled' by no one. It truly Is a currency who 'value' IS decided by the people who use it, No one else!
Independence Yes!
The REAL problem is 'apathy' and most folks reticence to get involved in matters they 'dont HAVE to' ... sadly many people have no real 'social conscience' and If they were to tell you the truth, they would tell you they really dont give a millifuck about other people....as long as their shits good, that's ALL that matters!
These people make me sad.....
maudlin morose mr motek
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Exactly my thoughts Motec, our world is full of bad things allowed to happen simply because not enough people (further away from the incident) care to speak out. I truly believe that if enough people spoke about the things that matter, even if not directly affecting them, our world could be much better. And not speaking about someone else's plight is counter-intuitive, because once a bad thing is allowed to happen somewhere, it's not long before it slowly makes its way to you.
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that's right mate, "evil triumphs when good people Do nothing"
m m m motek x
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greatest part of interest is human greed.
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greatest part of interest is human greed.
Is "capital formation" a good thing?
If so, what drives it?
If not, what should replace it?
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"capital development" per se is not 'bad' however trying to achieve "constant growth" IS VERY BAD ... as it is totally 'unrealistic'
Sadly many people will never even get to think this, let alone DO something about it!
shit's about to get real
hmmmmmmm motek :)
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That being said, I really don't like that this is my answer. I hate the idea that WAR is the source of our greatest triumphs as humanity. It bothers me. I really can't reconcile this fact either, I don't honestly know what better a drive to move beyond it... is, other than war itself. It truly is the fire under the ass that gets things moving - it is the ultimate motivation.
It isn't. This is a conservative myth for the right and left. Or at least it's not what you might imagine. The reason why there is a great explosion of technology in a war between serious nation states is simple: the government is hiding the best technologies relating to defense/offense.
If you know the history of cryptography, then you know this for a fact, it is not a guess. Huge advances are kept hidden by nation states so they can be used as trump cards in a war. It happens in every industry. In fact cryptography is an *entire industry* which was kept secret! That's an extreme example, but it points to an important general invisible truth.
So it is not that the technology appears because people are motivated, it is that the use of the technology suddenly becomes public all at once.
In a world such as panarchy, this doesn't happen to the same degree and society could be much wealthier because of it. No matter how motivated the society, the fact is that economics is what makes technology applicable to everyday life, and since we can have guns or we can have butter, it doesn't matter if we put trillions of dollars into making quantum computers or rail guns, because we are depriving another area of the economy from production, which ultimately manifests itself in less technological development somewhere else in the economy, thus hindering overall technological growth. War time development comes at an epic opportunity cost which is invisible because it is an alternative reality.
The reality is that almost all progress is evolutionary, depending on a steady drip of slight improvements. A true revolution is rare indeed, most are simply the illusion of a rapid change. It is true that nuclear and space technologies would have take a lot longer to develop, perhaps even the better part of a century (although I doubt this too), but it would have happened more organically and productively for all.
I find it too hard to lose track of some posts here ^.^
I agree entirely with what you said. I suppose in some ways, I actually was thinking that this was the reality, but it is easy to turn it into war being the necessity for invention, when a lot of the immediate imagery would like one to see it that way.
Right now I've been pondering more on a reality that I seldomly see talked about outside of healthcare. Right now when I take a look at individuals in power, I see a very clear line between generations. We are already very aware that our generation is drastically smaller than our parents (and in some cases, their parents too). Adding that we do not face the extreme famine and the massive population declines that disease (spanish flu), war (ww 1 & ww 2 & korea & vietnam) and famine (great depression & dust bowl) that the generation before our grandparents suffered through. People live longer, that is all there is to it. While we are happy to become adults and get the freedom that comes along with it, I'm beginning to get this collective feeling that, perhaps I haven't gotten out from under the "wing" of my parents.
The global changes that are happening as a matter of course thanks to the rapid increase in connectivity, is largely lacking in understanding by the generation that dominates politics today. It is almost universal amongst all countries, agnostic of religion or social identification... there is a gap between the digital and analogue ages, and that gap is making the policies that suppress us further each day. I've frequently seen on a number of the intellectual/tech/young topic magazines and internet columns the phenomenon that the people whom we believe would appropriately support policies that are in accordance with our views on freedom and information rights. The problem is usually observed that those individuals have too much angst against the political machine to begin with, and while they want change they believe there is too much resistance towards it.
I usually chalked that up to the normal "then why complain if you don't want to fix it?" but after a while I've really started to think about it, and while it sucks I am beginning to believe it is more than that, and I'm beginning to believe that change won't come so long as we have our parents in government. It seems childish to say that, and ultimately I feel childish for saying it, but as Will Smith & DJ Jazzy Jeff said... "Parents just don't understand." I can't have an intellectual conversation with my father over why I think the amount of money our country spends on imprisoning some highly intelligent indivduals and marking them as felons for carrying a few tabs of MDMA to a concert, while murders walk out for good behavior. I can't have an intellectual debate with my father over why I utilize things like Tor because I believe I have a right to think what I want to think, and that I should be able to do that without being watched by an Orwellian society.
And I don't know how to reconcile that issue in my head yet. I'm still pondering.
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The carrying capacity formula is relevant both biologically and economically...
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Cannibalism simultaneously regulates and extends the carrying capacity.
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Cannibalism simultaneously regulates and extends the carrying capacity.
There's an amusing organization called the Church of Euthanasia. Google it on clearnet if you like -- it's sufficiently well-known that your google search won't be an automatic signal that you've been on here (which, for those who haven't already thought about this issue, is not true in general for all searches. If some malicious poster comes up with a completely unique search term and somehow persuades SR forum readers to search it in google, they've got pretty good evidence that you've been on the SR forums. Hopefully there is a FAQ somewhere around here that makes this clear?)
Anyway, back to the COE.
The One Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Procreate.
The Four Sacred Pillars: Suicide, Abortion, Cannabalism, and Sodomy.
In the immediate aftermath of 9/11, they made a video called "I Like to Watch" that remains to this day my favorite piece of commentary on the bizarre social mood that gripped the US in those surreal days. You can download it from their site. I think it's worth a look.
/plug for the COE
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I find it too hard to lose track of some posts here ^.^
I agree entirely with what you said. I suppose in some ways, I actually was thinking that this was the reality, but it is easy to turn it into war being the necessity for invention, when a lot of the immediate imagery would like one to see it that way.
Right now I've been pondering more on a reality that I seldomly see talked about outside of healthcare. Right now when I take a look at individuals in power, I see a very clear line between generations. We are already very aware that our generation is drastically smaller than our parents (and in some cases, their parents too). Adding that we do not face the extreme famine and the massive population declines that disease (spanish flu), war (ww 1 & ww 2 & korea & vietnam) and famine (great depression & dust bowl) that the generation before our grandparents suffered through. People live longer, that is all there is to it. While we are happy to become adults and get the freedom that comes along with it, I'm beginning to get this collective feeling that, perhaps I haven't gotten out from under the "wing" of my parents.
The global changes that are happening as a matter of course thanks to the rapid increase in connectivity, is largely lacking in understanding by the generation that dominates politics today. It is almost universal amongst all countries, agnostic of religion or social identification... there is a gap between the digital and analogue ages, and that gap is making the policies that suppress us further each day. I've frequently seen on a number of the intellectual/tech/young topic magazines and internet columns the phenomenon that the people whom we believe would appropriately support policies that are in accordance with our views on freedom and information rights. The problem is usually observed that those individuals have too much angst against the political machine to begin with, and while they want change they believe there is too much resistance towards it.
I usually chalked that up to the normal "then why complain if you don't want to fix it?" but after a while I've really started to think about it, and while it sucks I am beginning to believe it is more than that, and I'm beginning to believe that change won't come so long as we have our parents in government. It seems childish to say that, and ultimately I feel childish for saying it, but as Will Smith & DJ Jazzy Jeff said... "Parents just don't understand." I can't have an intellectual conversation with my father over why I think the amount of money our country spends on imprisoning some highly intelligent indivduals and marking them as felons for carrying a few tabs of MDMA to a concert, while murders walk out for good behavior. I can't have an intellectual debate with my father over why I utilize things like Tor because I believe I have a right to think what I want to think, and that I should be able to do that without being watched by an Orwellian society.
And I don't know how to reconcile that issue in my head yet. I'm still pondering.
I think that you're right, there is simply no genuine way to participate in the democratic process any more for this generation, and I also think that unless we succeed at creating the Darknet, we also risk being at the mercy of a gerontocracy. I'm sure you've noticed the cavalier approach of the anti-snowdenites, "not fit to be a grocery bagger", "he's just 29, how dare he" and my favorite: "he's just a systems administrator!" and many other things vaguely along those lines. Extraordinary statements when you think about it. Pure class warfare, it's funny how Americans once looked down upon Britons for that behavior, and now here it is and they don't even recognize it. All that is typical of the present to future relation between a wealthy class and a destitute younger underclass. I think it is disgusting and completely undeserved.
Being a beneficiary of quantitative easing is immoral. It eats at both the ethos of both capitalist and socialist ideals. Incredibly, the baby boomer generation has poisoned two of the most important elements of our civilization: democracy and markets. Now they may not have much in common, but the libertarian right and left should really join forces against this zombification of society. Centrism is what we really have (once you get past all the bluster and get down to matters of practical policy), and it is pure poison, it leads straight to fascism. It's odd how it's commonly accepted today that a 'proper person' is supposed to avoid 'extremes', and hold moderate views in order to be considered an objective person, when it is obvious that socialism and capitalism effectively cancel each other out, which must mean centrist ideology is inherently the ideology of stagnation. If political extremes such as fascism and communism then come out of the woodwork, it is only because of the impotence of centrism that the pendulum swings too wildly afterward.
A surveillance state creates an asymmetry of power. Power outside of market economics is a zero sum game. There is an absolute amount of it and taking it from person X gives it to person Y, whether by votes or guns. This surveillance asymmetry creates 3 factions. The technocrats, of which there are two groups, the state technocrats and the cypherpunks, and the general population. You could sum up what is happening is that the people who understand the system obtain almost god-like powers, while everybody else gets screwed.
Without a surveillance society, there is simply no real demand for anonymity networks. I notice after the Prism reporting, that the speed of the Tor network dramatically climbed by as much as four or five times. Surveillance only increases the demand for Darknets, which also intensifies the asymmetry of power. It is analogous to free markets and black markets. The freer the market, the smaller the black market. You can get rid of the Darknet in the same way as getting rid of the black market. That is: in the long term, never. The only long term way to change these things is to change yourself, and I don't think the government is about to have a bout of introspection any time soon. People talk of housing bubbles, tech bubbles. It is the government that is in the real bubble. It's the mother of all bubbles, it's the sector of the economy that has increased in size practically every year for a century. Unless we finish the government, I fear that it will finish us all, the moniker leviathan is appropriate in more ways than one.
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What a great thread and viewpoints. "The refusal of King George III to allow the colonies to operate an honest money system, which freed the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators was probably the prime cause of the revolution." Benjamin Franklin
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." Thomas Jefferson
Our founders knew the pitfalls of the fractional reserve banking system we have now since 1913. It is an inevitable mathematical certainty of its collapse. I'm surprised it hasn't collapsed already. Trying to pick a date of its demise, is tricky with the FED pumping money in the banking system every month. The are no fundamentals in the stock markets, they go up on good/bad news. Our politicians are not stupid, they understand what's coming. They are preparing with the Patriot Act, NDAA, National Resources Act, Executive Orders, ammunition purchases, etc...All to be implemented with the declaration of Marshall law by the POTUS. While the people argue over Rep/Dem paradigm.
I believe before the worldwide economic collapse happens, there will be an "false flag/event" to blame the economic collapse on. I believe once Marshall Law is declared, they will hit the internet kill switch(end of BTC). Then institute Executive Orders 10990, 10995, 10997, 10998, 10999, 11000, 11001, 11002, 11003, 11004, 11005, 11051, 11310, 11049 and 11921(very Orwellian). If you have time, read them. In a nut shell they basically say, that they can confiscate ANYTHING private/commercial, even you. If you put up a bitch, they can kill you.
Then they will set up global trade zones, global bank/currency and a global government. Believe it or not, these are the good old days!
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What are your thoughts on the subject? Chances of a global economic collapse occurring? Why? When? What do you hypothesize will occur?
Is bitcoin the solution? Or a spark toward the solution? Or irrelevant? Etc. etc. I don't know. Throw your thoughts around here. I'm interested in seeing how people on SR/the darkweb/whatever feel on the subject.
I originally posted this thread in the Newb section but of course there was no input.
I don't know who here pays attention to global currencies.. But the world HAS actually been moving towards having a singular currency.... In my opinion.
No government with a central bank would give up the power to use monetary stimulus to advance their goals to another nation. I don't think so anyway. I mean its not like they can raise taxes without sending us into another depression and they can't raise interest rates without bankrupting the governments of nearly every western nation. The only other option is inflation. I like tangible currency. Something with intrinsic value like gold, silver, or bullets! Stuff people will ALWAYS want.
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subbed; mostly for the posts between jundullahi and pine, I just don't have time to read everything right now. I know very little about economics and tend to purposely keep it that way, but I really enjoy philosophy and especially ethics; intriguing posts.