Silk Road forums
Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: ralph123 on September 22, 2012, 01:40 am
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I wanted to start this thread and see how many videos there were out there about this subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8Do1e-eCOk
this one is only 2:16 minutes long
I invite anybody to post a video that proves the CIA and DEA are crooks
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So are you saying you were not aware that the CIA is one of the biggest drug smuggling operations?
Next thing you know you will say that you are not aware that the CIA put Osama Bin Laden, Castro, and Saddam Husein in charge of their respective countries. Not to count that they are responsible for the current state of the Iranian government.
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I've heard about this. I always wanted to do some actual research on it to see how true it was.
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Read this:
During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,500 metric tons in 1999,.[15] However, in July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, collaborating with the United Nations to eradicate heroin production in Afghanistan, declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season.[16][17] The Bush administration paid a 43 million dollar 'eradication' reward payment to the Taliban in 2001.
[15] http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/2004/McCleanBriefing_041118.doc.htm
[16] http://www.unodc.org/afg/reports_surveys.html
[17] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/20/world/taliban-s-ban-on-poppy-a-success-us-aides-say.html
Look at this:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Afghanistan_opium_poppy_cultivation_1994-2007b.PNG
Call me a conspiracy theorist and you can go fuck yourself. This is a real conspiracy. The facts are on my side.
You might be thinking, ah of course Pine, it's all about $$$ and control of supply of h/opium, it's obvious, but this is also not what is really going on I'm afraid, it's just one part of the picture, I think it's actually much worse than that.
The International Narcotics Control Board states that an over production in licit opiates since 2000 has led to stockpiles in producing countries 'that could cover demand for two years'. Thus, some say Afghan opium would contribute to an already oversupplied market and would potentially cause the supply and demand imbalance that the UN control system was designed. However, the World Health Organisation points out that there is an acute global shortage of poppy-based medicines such as morphine and codeine. This is largely due to chronic underprescription (especially in countries where morphine is extremely highly priced). The International Narcotics Control Board which regulates opium supply throughout the world enforces the 1961 Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs: this law provides that countries can only demand the raw poppy materials corresponding to the use of opium-based medicines over the last two years and thus limits countries who have low levels of prescription in terms of the amounts they can demand. As such, 77% of the world's opium supplies are being used by only six countries, leaving the rest of the world lacking in essential medicines such as morphine and codeine (See Fischer, B J. Rehm, and T Culbert, "Opium based medicines: a mapping of global supply, demand and needs" in Spivack D. (ed.) Feasibility Study on Opium Licensing in Afghanistan, Kabul, 2005. p. 85–86.[32] ). A second-tier supply system, that complements the current UN control system by supplying opium-based medicines to countries currently not receiving the poppy-based pain relief medicines needed, would maintain the balance established by the UN system and provide a market to Afghan-made poppy-based medicines.
Basically the United States wants monopoly or effective monopoly control of the supply of *morphine* if possible.
Why though? Seems a bit abstract, right? That is a question that has a much darker answer than you might anticipate. They are deliberately constricting supply and storing it up as a tactical advantage in a future war, I don't mean a shitty little war like Afghanistan or Iraq, I mean a proper out all world war between Powers where there would be a real existential threat to the State itself.
My hypothesis is that control of morphine is a much more critical component of a army's supplies than you might imagine at first and that most important of all: morphine cannot be easily replaced synthetically. To put it another way, there isn't really an alternative. Morphine is an extraordinarily effective drug, all the best painkillers are derivatives of it. I don't believe there is an alternative synthetic to morphine.
My hypothesis is open to falsification, if you can find me a drug that is as effective as morphine with with the same property of potentially abundant and relatively inexpensive supply, then my hypothesis is debunked. Doesn't stop that graph implying an extraordinarily level of deceit to the American people though, that would still need to be explained in some way.
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Pine why the fuck do you care so much lol? Anyone with 2 brain cells can figure that the world is bent, you just have to manipulate the system to fit your needs because really, you have to accept that nothing really changes. People always want power and those with power are going to want to retain it and thus do things to ensure they do so. If you look at the British Empire we were running the world for years doing shady shit, I mean we went to war with China to essentially create junkies. The difference is is that you guys have only been running the world since 1945 so you get all excited when you find out things are not always how they seem.
In reality this perfect world that, in my eyes anyway, the people who, again in my eyes, are more idealistic on this forum are looking for will never exist. The world works on behind-the-scenes agreements, shady deals, and working by doing each other favours and scratching peoples backs when they scratch yours.
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^^ Also, you may be wondering why the poppy isn't grown everywhere. It is probably because it's extremely hard to do this efficiently. I don't know much about agronomy of the poppy, but since h and opium and morphine are so compelling and useful, it seems fairly obvious that if it were possible, then it would be everywhere. But it is not. Not for legal reasons for sure, I mean it's not like that stops hydroponic weed farms and I would reckon on h consumers being fairly well motivated, but for practical ones related to botany I'll bet my bottom dollar. Some plants species, even subspecies can only be grown in extremely specific conditions, and I think this is likely the case here.
As a result, the farming of the poppy and production of its derivatives is *extremely* geographically concentrated. Today I think there are effectively only 3 or 4 places in the world it is even possible to grow the poppy, there's a place in India, a place in Mexico, and of course Afghanistan. Afghanistan accounts for something like 75% - 90% of the worlds supply, so that gives you a good indication of how concentrated this business must be.
I mean, if the 3rd world has massive demand for morphine, then it doesn't look too sophisticated to grow the poppy grow in Afghanistan to me, so they would be doing it themselves, but they are not.
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As a result, the farming of the poppy and production of its derivatives is *extremely* geographically concentrated. Today I think there are effectively only 3 or 4 places in the world it is even possible to grow the poppy, there's a place in India, a place in Mexico, and of course Afghanistan. Afghanistan accounts for something like 75% - 90% of the worlds supply, so that gives you a good indication of how concentrated this business must be.
You have that slightly wrong there my old fruit, you have the Golden Crescent, the Golden Triangle, Mexico and Afghan. :)
Still wondering why ya give a fuck though?
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Pine why the fuck do you care so much lol? Anyone with 2 brain cells can figure that the world is bent, you just have to manipulate the system to fit your needs because really, you have to accept that nothing really changes. People always want power and those with power are going to want to retain it and thus do things to ensure they do so. If you look at the British Empire we were running the world for years doing shady shit, I mean we went to war with China to essentially create junkies. The difference is is that you guys have only been running the world since 1945 so you get all excited when you find out things are not always how they seem.
In reality this perfect world that, in my eyes anyway, the people who, again in my eyes, are more idealistic on this forum are looking for will never exist. The world works on behind-the-scenes agreements, shady deals, and working by doing each other favours and scratching peoples backs when they scratch yours.
I don't think cynicism is a sign of sophistication. I think it is a sign of fatalism which is a philosophy I cannot stand. People who accept the status of the world never change it.
I am not naive Limetless, I have made considerable quantity of money by understanding the world better than most others. Usually that would be thought arrogant in polite society, but since there is an actual numerical value backing it up, it is simply a fact.
So I return your question with a question. Why don't you care so much?
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Lol I wasn't trying to say I was more sophisticated than you or visa-verse nor was I saying you are naive. However I am not fatalistic, I just accept the world for what is and that you have to manipulate it to get what you want. You can buy everyone for a price and I've never found anyone that this isn't the case for.
I'm not saying you haven't made bank and I am not saying you don't understand the world. I just don't feel the need to change things because they work for me as they are and to be real with you I don't care too much about other people than the main people in my life. I'm out to make a lot of money that I can build a real future with and then retire from drug dealing and live my life. I don't feel the need to change the world or be a revolutionary etc, it's not really in my mindset.
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Actually you're right Mok, I forgot about the U.K growing poppies and I was talking about it with my the guys I work with the other day.
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It doesn't depress me how bent the world it, I just see it as even more opportunities to make a bit more cash. :D
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It doesn't depress me how bent the world it, I just see it as even more opportunities to make a bit more cash. :D
You're the only person I wouldn't punch in the face for saying that Lim, I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
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It doesn't depress me how bent the world it, I just see it as even more opportunities to make a bit more cash. :D
You're the only person I wouldn't punch in the face for saying that Lim, I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
LOL yano I actually feel a little bit special for hearing that. :P Seriously though how do you think people that make drugs get shit done? Chemical companies don't supply you with restricted "things" for just "the standard fee" lol, neither do customs agents "forget to do their job" just because they are lazy either. Then there's the bankers and accountants that "don't remember" due diligence when they are making company accounts for companies that sell things to other companies that are strangely enough owned by the guy who's sitting next to you.
The world is full of palms that are only too happy and more than ready to be greased, it's how the world runs or shit just wouldn't get done. Even in the legit world that's how it works, look at lobbyists. That's a whole industry based on greasing palms to get shit done.
Christ I mean I teach people how to wash money which is a whole industry based on corrupt intentions "Give me your money, I'll show you how you can keep yours".
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It doesn't depress me how bent the world it, I just see it as even more opportunities to make a bit more cash. :D
You're the only person I wouldn't punch in the face for saying that Lim, I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
LOL yano I actually feel a little bit special for hearing that. :P Seriously though how do you think people that make drugs get shit done? Chemical companies don't supply you with restricted "things" for just "the standard fee" lol, neither do customs agents "forget to do their job" just because they are lazy either. Then there's the bankers and accountants that "don't remember" due diligence when they are making company accounts for companies that sell things to other companies that are strangely enough owned by the guy who's sitting next to you.
The world is full of palms that are only too happy and more than ready to be greased, it's how the world runs or shit just wouldn't get done. Even in the legit world that's how it works, look at lobbyists. That's a whole industry based on greasing palms to get shit done.
People taking money to fuck over anyone that they don't care about and of course the more money involved, the shorter that list of "people they care about". You know, half the time I feel fucked over; devoting my life towards the betterment of man. Am I an idiot for not using my social skills to take advantage of them and just enjoying the life I have on this planet :-\
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Gotta pull you up on that as well Pine, Australia (Tasmania specifically) actually produces quite a lot of opium poppies, and I've heard the UK government have had secret crops for some time (http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2011/09/harvest-hypocrisy-uk-opium-poppy-farming-kept-hush-hush).
Read an article on that one a while ago but that's just what a quick google search turned up, I'm sure you can find more reliable sources.
Couldn't find any stats from the governments website on Tasmania's production but apparently we account for 50% of the worlds concentrated poppy straw.
Yeah, looks like it can be grown in many more places than I thought initially. It is still true that supply is hugely concentrated in Afghanistan with Mexico a far distant second. But it does appear to be possible to grow more widely than I thought. Which raises the question: where are all the heroin and opium farms in America/Australia etc? I've never even heard of it happening once, and you hear about weed busts every five seconds.
I think there is something we're missing here, but not sure what it is. Huge demand, but no serious attempt at supply right next to the consumer base? Something's up.
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My darker side would say yes you are but I suppose in reality you aren't. I wouldn't say it's a waste of time I just personally think you wont get very far but that's just because I think people are by nature flawed.
Speaking for myself though I most certainly wouldn't do anything for money, I wouldn't even sell just any drug. The things I have decided that are ok though I have no problem with doing but I wouldn't be happy if I was killing anyone or causing proper suffering or anything.
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My darker side would say yes you are but I suppose in reality you aren't. I wouldn't say it's a waste of time I just personally think you wont get very far but that's just because I think people are by nature flawed.
Speaking for myself though I most certainly wouldn't do anything for money, I wouldn't even sell just any drug. The things I have decided that are ok though I have no problem with doing but I wouldn't be happy if I was killing anyone or causing proper suffering or anything.
Science help us :(
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My darker side would say yes you are but I suppose in reality you aren't. I wouldn't say it's a waste of time I just personally think you wont get very far but that's just because I think people are by nature flawed.
Speaking for myself though I most certainly wouldn't do anything for money, I wouldn't even sell just any drug. The things I have decided that are ok though I have no problem with doing but I wouldn't be happy if I was killing anyone or causing proper suffering or anything.
You make it sound like you would be more likely be morally-faulted because you are a vendor and laundry helper. I say fuck that. Ain't nuthin wrong about selling drugs and helping people with their laundry. Drug on war is a old propaganda and a failed war based on faulty logic. Many drugs have the power to enhance our lives and deepen our understanding of reality. You provide value to people living in countries with the government filled with greedy old fucks.
Do you want world peace? Put the most powerful person from each country in a room and give them all 100mg of MDMA.
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My hypothesis is that control of morphine is a much more critical component of a army's supplies than you might imagine at first...
I believe it was a pretty significant component in Alexander's adventures (the fruit of the poppy, obviously not morphine at that point in time).
I will need to verify this out but I understood that the yield per poppy requires significant land for it to be worthwhile. That combined with the needed growing conditions makes it something that is very easy to find with the eye in the sky and thus growing poppies is as much about regulatory arbitrage than it is actual growing conditions.
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I hope the world would combust into cinders so it can rebirth anew. Chaos spawns order, surely it's the only thing that ever has; (aside from wealthy individuals interested in their own well-being).
Mok, why do you say that consciousness will rekindle by year's end?
Do you want world peace? Put the most powerful person from each country in a room and give them all 100mg of MDMA.
A 10-strip of acid would do a better job I think. LSD has a tendency to make people feel guilty about wrongdoing upon others
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Lol I wasn't trying to say I was more sophisticated than you or visa-verse nor was I saying you are naive. However I am not fatalistic, I just accept the world for what is and that you have to manipulate it to get what you want. You can buy everyone for a price and I've never found anyone that this isn't the case for.
I'm not saying you haven't made bank and I am not saying you don't understand the world. I just don't feel the need to change things because they work for me as they are and to be real with you I don't care too much about other people than the main people in my life. I'm out to make a lot of money that I can build a real future with and then retire from drug dealing and live my life. I don't feel the need to change the world or be a revolutionary etc, it's not really in my mindset.
It's entirely up to you how you view it and live your life. Capitalism is not actually a religion. There is the philosophy, the theoretical framework, and then the economic function that revolves around your actions. They are related but different. Lots of people claim to be socialists, but invest money, have credit cards, participate in the fractional reverse banking system, which is a bit mind boggling to me. Most people are against capitalism in theory (usually because they are illiterate) but for capitalism in practice. And you can't buy a pine. But I suppose if you acquired platypuses it could be different.
When you need shelter/food of course you are motivated to search for them, but if you have 100 units of shelter and food it starts to become boring. You may want a nice burrow today, but there is a upper limit on how much capital you acquire before you obtain other goals. It could be a million, a billion or more, but there is a limit. This is why very wealthy people aren't even really aware of their wealth in practical terms, which is an immensely desirable freedom that you are currently seeking to obtain. Simple freedoms like walking down a supermarket isle without having to think about the prices, that is something. It is that freedom you want most, not specific goods or services. I'm not trivializing that because I think its important. I'm just saying, after that, then what?
You don't have to be a "revolutionary", that's just one way of thinking about it. Maybe Limet will discover a desire to create fine art, space tourism, novel writing or even to collect all the pokemon. It depends on the person.
Pine's revolutionary vision: making platypus farms and teaching them all military grade encryption. My platypus will be the best cryptographers. I don't know how they'll get on with my cats though.
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My darker side would say yes you are but I suppose in reality you aren't. I wouldn't say it's a waste of time I just personally think you wont get very far but that's just because I think people are by nature flawed.
Speaking for myself though I most certainly wouldn't do anything for money, I wouldn't even sell just any drug. The things I have decided that are ok though I have no problem with doing but I wouldn't be happy if I was killing anyone or causing proper suffering or anything.
Science help us :(
Lol if you don't like my attitude on things you better stop taking drugs altogether mate. You're funding murder, robbery, corruption and bad people. :) ;)
And no I don't think I'm morally faulted, like I said I am perfectly happy with myself and what I get up to otherwise I wouldn't do it lol. The majority of society possibly does not though.
I like the world being corrupt though like I have said before, that way everyone can get a slice of the action. ;)
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And you can't buy a pine. But I suppose if you acquired platypuses it could be different.
Pine you don't have to buy people with money, you can buy them with fear or sentiment as well.
Consider this - Limetless wants Pine to do XYZ but Pine refuses because it's dangerous and could end up in prison. Limetless offers Pine £1Mil but Pine still refuses. Limetless then goes and finds Pine's wife/husband/children and threatens to push them off a cliff if you don't do what Limetless wants, what does Pine then do?
Cash ain't the only currency in the world my friend. One man's family is another man's legal tender. I am not saying that I'd do such a thing but I'm giving a realistic example of how some people work.
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Do you want world peace? Put the most powerful person from each country in a room and give them all 100mg of MDMA.
Fuck MDMA, shroom 'em up.
...But keep them away from the nuke trigger, the visuals from that would be too tempting.
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My hypothesis is that control of morphine is a much more critical component of a army's supplies than you might imagine at first...
I believe it was a pretty significant component in Alexander's adventures (the fruit of the poppy, obviously not morphine at that point in time).
I will need to verify this out but I understood that the yield per poppy requires significant land for it to be worthwhile. That combined with the needed growing conditions makes it something that is very easy to find with the eye in the sky and thus growing poppies is as much about regulatory arbitrage than it is actual growing conditions.
Yes, but what is causing me trouble is the fact that marijuana farms seem bulky in approximately the same way. I've seen some poppy farms, they are large but not so large you couldn't imagine some people doing it in some fields in developed countries. I know the market for weed is larger in scale if not price point, but even a mediocre farm in Afghanistan has to be coming up with double digit kilograms of opium so I don't get it.
It's like searching for the answer to a riddle, but I have not experienced a clicking sensation just yet.
I don't believe that LEA are responsible for an absence of h farming in developed world. That's a fairly heterodox hypothesis!
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By being alive I'm funding all those things. By working as a cell of society, I'm funding all those things. Plus, who said I took drugs? I think the problem lies within your outlook. Obviously, any successful man has a system of self-rationalizing for everything they do or they wouldn't be able to function properly; you're not wrong there. But instead of seeing how we can get a piece of the action, maybe we can see how to make the world a better place based on our strong-suits?
Or you could always cause disruption amongst the upper class, that's my backup plan :D
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When you need shelter/food of course you are motivated to search for them, but if you have 100 units of shelter and food it starts to become boring. You may want a nice burrow today, but there is a upper limit on how much capital you acquire before you obtain other goals. It could be a million, a billion or more, but there is a limit. This is why very wealthy people aren't even really aware of their wealth in practical terms, which is an immensely desirable freedom that you are currently seeking to obtain. Simple freedoms like walking down a supermarket isle without having to think about the prices, that is something. It is that freedom you want most, not specific goods or services. I'm not trivializing that because I think its important. I'm just saying, after that, then what?
Not to get all Buddhist, but that freedom (as all are) is an illusion. In that case you trade walking down the supermarket isle free of price worry for worries about asset management, looting by any financial institution, and asset security. Name me a freedom that doesn't require being shackled to something else? Sure, we all have preferred methods of enslavement, but it still comes down to trade offs.
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Caparino why would I want to change my outlook when I'd stop getting a piece of the action? That's money out my pocket and that makes Lim a sad panda. Why you trying to part me from the bamboo I could get man? That's just not cool. :P
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Caparino why would I want to change my outlook when I'd stop getting a piece of the action? That's money out my pocket and that makes Lim a sad panda. Why you trying to part me from the bamboo I could get man? That's just not cool. :P
Hahahaha, that easy money's the biggest addiction ever ain't it?
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And you can't buy a pine. But I suppose if you acquired platypuses it could be different.
Pine you don't have to buy people with money, you can buy them with fear or sentiment as well.
Consider this - Limetless wants Pine to do XYZ but Pine refuses because it's dangerous and could end up in prison. Limetless offers Pine £1Mil but Pine still refuses. Limetless then goes and finds Pine's wife/husband/children and threatens to push them off a cliff if you don't do what Limetless wants, what does Pine then do?
Cash ain't the only currency in the world my friend. One man's family is another man's legal tender. I am not saying that I'd do such a thing but I'm giving a realistic example of how some people work.
That is coercion, not a purchase. Market transaction are voluntary be default. Do I etch 'purchase order' in tiny writing onto a cartridge or something?
Anyway, you already know the answer.
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When you need shelter/food of course you are motivated to search for them, but if you have 100 units of shelter and food it starts to become boring. You may want a nice burrow today, but there is a upper limit on how much capital you acquire before you obtain other goals. It could be a million, a billion or more, but there is a limit. This is why very wealthy people aren't even really aware of their wealth in practical terms, which is an immensely desirable freedom that you are currently seeking to obtain. Simple freedoms like walking down a supermarket isle without having to think about the prices, that is something. It is that freedom you want most, not specific goods or services. I'm not trivializing that because I think its important. I'm just saying, after that, then what?
Not to get all Buddhist, but that freedom (as all are) is an illusion. In that case you trade walking down the supermarket isle free of price worry for worries about asset management, looting by any financial institution, and asset security. Name me a freedom that doesn't require being shackled to something else? Sure, we all have preferred methods of enslavement, but it still comes down to trade offs.
True I suppose, you trade me your bank accounts and I'll obtain groceries for you.
But in all seriousness I would not describe having millions of dollars as enslavement. Sure you need to do some work, but you can't compare it to working for a living. Besides for some of us playing with money is actually a fun activity. What are we? Masochists?
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Consider this - Limetless wants Pine to do XYZ but Pine refuses because it's dangerous and could end up in prison. Limetless offers Pine £1Mil but Pine still refuses. Limetless then goes and finds Pine's wife/husband/children and threatens to push them off a cliff if you don't do what Limetless wants, what does Pine then do?
What Lim doesn't know is that pine has a very particular set of skills; skills that make pine a living hell for people like Lim...
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And you can't buy a pine. But I suppose if you acquired platypuses it could be different.
Pine you don't have to buy people with money, you can buy them with fear or sentiment as well.
Consider this - Limetless wants Pine to do XYZ but Pine refuses because it's dangerous and could end up in prison. Limetless offers Pine £1Mil but Pine still refuses. Limetless then goes and finds Pine's wife/husband/children and threatens to push them off a cliff if you don't do what Limetless wants, what does Pine then do?
Cash ain't the only currency in the world my friend. One man's family is another man's legal tender. I am not saying that I'd do such a thing but I'm giving a realistic example of how some people work.
That is coercion, not a purchase. Market transaction are voluntary be default. Do I etch 'purchase order' in tiny writing onto a cartridge or something?
Anyway, you already know the answer.
LOL now that is naive! What is one man's "coercion" is another mans "transaction" and one man's "brutality" is another man's "getting shit done". Sometimes high principles just don't cut it, depending on the situation. All this bedroom philosophy is great when you can allow it, sometimes though you just have to get shit done.
And yes, that is exactly how some people do it. :)
Cap The Pound, The Euro and The Dollar my friend, they are The Holy Trinity. ;)
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^^ Also, you may be wondering why the poppy isn't grown everywhere. It is probably because it's extremely hard to do this efficiently. I don't know much about agronomy of the poppy, but since h and opium and morphine are so compelling and useful, it seems fairly obvious that if it were possible, then it would be everywhere. But it is not. Not for legal reasons for sure, I mean it's not like that stops hydroponic weed farms and I would reckon on h consumers being fairly well motivated, but for practical ones related to botany I'll bet my bottom dollar. Some plants species, even subspecies can only be grown in extremely specific conditions, and I think this is likely the case here.
As a result, the farming of the poppy and production of its derivatives is *extremely* geographically concentrated. Today I think there are effectively only 3 or 4 places in the world it is even possible to grow the poppy, there's a place in India, a place in Mexico, and of course Afghanistan. Afghanistan accounts for something like 75% - 90% of the worlds supply, so that gives you a good indication of how concentrated this business must be.
I mean, if the 3rd world has massive demand for morphine, then it doesn't look too sophisticated to grow the poppy grow in Afghanistan to me, so they would be doing it themselves, but they are not.
Sorry Pine,
The Opium Poppy, like the Cannabis plant is able to grow almost anywhere in the world. As Moksha pointed out a significant proportion of licit pharmacological opium is produced in Tasmania. enormous amounts of illegal opium is grown in SE Asia, the "golden triangle" of Thailand, Burma and Lao, you didn't even mention Laos in your post about where opium's grown, which is perplexing to me.
In Europe it's grown legitimately and illicitly in France, Spain, Italy and the UK, in fact I personally know people who grow and harvest opium in Spain and the UK.
Sorry Pine never seen you be so wrong before, but botanically stay quiet.
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^^ Also, you may be wondering why the poppy isn't grown everywhere. It is probably because it's extremely hard to do this efficiently. I don't know much about agronomy of the poppy, but since h and opium and morphine are so compelling and useful, it seems fairly obvious that if it were possible, then it would be everywhere. But it is not. Not for legal reasons for sure, I mean it's not like that stops hydroponic weed farms and I would reckon on h consumers being fairly well motivated, but for practical ones related to botany I'll bet my bottom dollar. Some plants species, even subspecies can only be grown in extremely specific conditions, and I think this is likely the case here.
As a result, the farming of the poppy and production of its derivatives is *extremely* geographically concentrated. Today I think there are effectively only 3 or 4 places in the world it is even possible to grow the poppy, there's a place in India, a place in Mexico, and of course Afghanistan. Afghanistan accounts for something like 75% - 90% of the worlds supply, so that gives you a good indication of how concentrated this business must be.
I mean, if the 3rd world has massive demand for morphine, then it doesn't look too sophisticated to grow the poppy grow in Afghanistan to me, so they would be doing it themselves, but they are not.
Sorry Pine,
The Opium Poppy, like the Cannabis plant is able to grow almost anywhere in the world. As Moksha pointed out a significant proportion of licit pharmacological opium is produced in Tasmania. enormous amounts of illegal opium is grown in SE Asia, the "golden triangle" of Thailand, Burma and Lao, you didn't even mention Laos in your post about where opium's grown, which is perplexing to me.
In Europe it's grown legitimately and illicitly in France, Spain, Italy and the UK, in fact I personally know people who grow and harvest opium in Spain and the UK.
Sorry Pine never seen you be so wrong before, but botanically stay quiet.
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I didn't realize how widely grown it was as well, thought it must be specific to the conditions in the middle east. Interestingly enough the Tas government refuses to release stats on their poppy production as per their website, but states there's over 1000 poppy growers or farms I think it was.
I wish I had your optimism Pine, I try but the more I educate myself about the goings on around me the more depressing life is, and the more I lose hope. Silk Road to the rescue :D
Some days I'm just happier with the news on the free-to-air channels - puppies stuck in trees, the amazing new ways I can save on gym membership, etc etc..
Sorry if this has already been talked about (I'm rushin' and can't be bothered to read every page).
The UK poppy fields are amazing. A relative told me she used to drive past one of the locations on her way to work. I could find out the location, but I'm not sure how often they move them. It was there for at least three years, but then she stopped going to that job and hasn't driven past them for a few years now. It must have been for opium cultivation, why else would you need acres of opium poppies that are harvested on an industrial scale?
I found out quiet a bit about the manufacture of medical morphine in the UK by fishing around online. Like where the opium goes to be refined and then where the largest distributor of medical morphine is based, even how to order it (need to be licenced though). I often wondered if any of the UK crime firms have ever thought of robbing the production route at some point? Would be worth a lot of money, but I bet the securities shit hot.
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ok back to the subject of this thread
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB7_OAE6TE&feature=related
just another vid about how the CIA controls ALL the cocaine as they work with the cartels
Thanks guys for all the interesting conversation. I just finished reading each and every word in this thread and it is very educational for me to find out all that info about the poppy fields
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ok back to the subject of this thread
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB7_OAE6TE&feature=related
just another vid about how the CIA controls ALL the cocaine as they work with the cartels
Thanks guys for all the interesting conversation. I just finished reading each and every word in this thread and it is very educational for me to find out all that info about the poppy fields
Like I asked Pine I would ask you why do you care so much even if they do influence the Cartels?
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well I find it very interesting as far as the power struggle goes. I agree with you that it's all about the Benjamin s. So who ever is controlling the drugs are the ones with the most money right? So they put on this charade about the war on drugs and the just say no campaign and main stream public believes whatever they see on the television. Knowledge is power but ignorance really is bliss so how can one have faith in a government that has been proven to lie and cheat it's citizens? Nobodies vote makes any difference at all. I am not racist or against the other gendor but I believe the best person for the job should have that job. In my opinion John Mcain didn't get elected president because congress wanted to show the world that we are not racist. What was Obama's experience? 1 term as a senator? I'm not a big Mcain fan but I felt he would have been the better front man because after all, the president is just a front man. What about all that shit with Bill Clinton and George Bush trafficking all that cocaine to Arkansas? And Ricky Ross buying kilos from the DEA for half price? Our congress is our cartel. I think the 4 year term should apply to every government employee all the way down to the janitors. Everyone should get a chance to have those kinds of benefits. $ years and thats it. Go back to regular society after that cops, judges, congressmen, the whole fucking bunch of them. With that we would have a new bunch in there every 4 years and corruption would be cut a little but at least everyone would have a chance to live that kind of high life.
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But why does this anger you? Because it clearly does.
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burn your money.
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because I'll never have a chance to have a government job and enjoy those kinds of benefits unless I win the lottery or one of my books becomes a best seller. It does anger me a bit but only when I think about it. I am still paying a debt to society for a ten year old felony. I need a new job now so I can have my record exponged so I can get a better job. My job options are very limited and they are minimum wage or under the table. The last under the table job I worked I had to fight tooth and nail to get my pay and still did not get it all. So I have learned the hard way that when somebody wrongs me then it's best to let God handle it for me. That guy just got arrested and had to pay 1300 dollars plus he still has a court day and I had nothing to do with it.
No I try not to get negative about anything because I have seen the evidence of how your thoughts can actually mold your reality. I have seen some crazy shit that I never would have believed 2 years ago. Two simple words can perform miracles and those words are "thank you". By keeping those thoughts in my mind, I've seen the world bend to my will and it continues to do so and when negative thoughts enter then fucked up shit happens so it's best to let the negatives flow in and out easily and find a reason to say thank you whatever that reason is because it will cause more reasons to be thankful. Yea it's corny as hell but it works
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I think we have rather different outlooks on this topic to be honest.
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Lim, you don't have to be Dr Freud to see that when people are treated like dumbasses, they have an inherent tendency resent it.
When you're told one thing, and the evidence of your eyes says another, then you have a case of the State saying "do as I say, not as I do", which is a contradiction, it is implying there is one set of rules for the rulers and one set of rules for everybody else.
Humans simply don't like these inconsistencies because nobody likes to be tricked and made a fool of. e.g. a minor example is a child told to go to bed at 9pm, but it is actually 7pm and the child's parents have simply moved the clock forward by 2 hours. This may or may not have traumatized a pint sized pine upon discovery, leading to conspiratorial and paranoid/analytical thinking later in life.
There you go!
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Lim, you don't have to be Dr Freud to see that when people are treated like dumbasses, they have an inherent tendency resent it.
When you're told one thing, and the evidence of your eyes says another, then you have a case of the State saying "do as I say, not as I do", which is a contradiction, it is implying there is one set of rules for the rulers and one set of rules for everybody else.
Humans simply don't like these inconsistencies because nobody likes to be tricked and made a fool of. e.g. a minor example is a child told to go to bed at 9pm, but it is actually 7pm and the child's parents have simply moved the clock forward by 2 hours. This may or may not have traumatized a pint sized pine upon discovery, leading to conspiratorial and paranoid/analytical thinking later in life.
There you go!
Then why do you PERHAPS pretend to be female when you are male? :P Aren't you, if that is the case of course, treating people like dumbasses?
Also you have missed my point, I am not arguing with you that people don't like to be sold white and then get black. Any idiot can work that out for themselves.
My point is that if you can see the light through the dark then fair enough, well done and a pat on the back you doth certainly deserve. BUT SAYING THAT, if you can then why do we think that you as one single person voicing what your logic has brought you to perceive to be the truth is going to do anything? It wont and that has become quite apparent through history all the way back from when civilization first began. Even when things are perceived to have changed, in reality they most certainly haven't.
It just strikes me that people that think that by talking about things they perceive to be true, especially thing like this are pissed because they don't have the power themselves because, and let's be real here, there will never be an equal or egalitarian society. This is because when it boils down to it and all the dust from the revolution has cleared that humans are pack animals and that means there is always a pecking order and thus you have your Gods and you have your Clods. I firmly believe that anyone can work their way up the ladder by making the right connections even if you have to play it a little dynastic so you lay a foundation for your kids to step up from.
Even myself, I don't come from wealth, in fact quite the reverse. But by the time I have quit this dance and long after that when I have children they will be going to the best fee paying schools and they'll have all the opportunities I never had. Look at how the Kennedy family started out in America, Poppa Kenedy made bank from booze in the prohibition era and then JFK ended up as President even if he did get murked. Like I said, don't fight the system, play it and manipulate it so it works for you.
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Limitless I gather that you don't like Americans or America in general but in fact if America hadn't of stepped in during wwII then there would be no british empire but I am learning a lot from you man because it would seem to be the predatorial nature that comes out as the winner in this game
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Limitless I gather that you don't like Americans or America in general but in fact if America hadn't of stepped in during wwII then there would be no british empire but I am learning a lot from you man because it would seem to be the predatorial nature that comes out as the winner in this game
Nah I like Americans (well most of you anyway) and I don't even mind America per se. Just some of the shit you pull slightly annoys me every now and then but that's it really. Some of my dearest friends are American. :) And of course it's the predator that wins! Why do you think humans sit at the top of the food chain? Because we are the smartest predator, and within the apex predator are the ones at the top of the apex tree. It's survival of the shittest my friend, and it's a jungle out there. ;)
And lol pulling out the WW2 thing is silly, you helped yeah, but we did the leg work. :)
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I do enjoy our little talks and of all the vendors that are on SR When the time comes I would not hesitate to order from you without a bit of worry about my product arriving.
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I do enjoy our little talks and of all the vendors that are on SR When the time comes I would not hesitate to order from you without a bit of worry about my product arriving.
Cheers mate. :)
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Limitless I gather that you don't like Americans or America in general but in fact if America hadn't of stepped in during wwII then there would be no british empire but I am learning a lot from you man because it would seem to be the predatorial nature that comes out as the winner in this game
Actually Americans fought the runt of the litter where they landed while the Russians and Brits handled the real brute force of the Nazi Army.
*The more you know*
Although by doing so they got to the heart of Germany and infiltrated Nazi Headquarters. MERICUHHH, FUCK YEAH! COMING TO SAVE THE MOTHERFUCKIN DAY YEAH!
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yea it didn't help at all when america dropped the bomb on Japan
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Limitless I gather that you don't like Americans or America in general but in fact if America hadn't of stepped in during wwII then there would be no british empire but I am learning a lot from you man because it would seem to be the predatorial nature that comes out as the winner in this game
Actually Americans fought the runt of the litter where they landed while the Russians and Brits handled the real brute force of the Nazi Army.
*The more you know*
Although by doing so they got to the heart of Germany and infiltrated Nazi Headquarters. MERICUHHH, FUCK YEAH! COMING TO SAVE THE MOTHERFUCKIN DAY YEAH!
You dropped the Bomb on Japan yeah, but even though you fucked yourselves over at D-Day we still took more casualties that day than you guys anyway. That's what pisses me off so much about Saving Private Ryan because it doesn't acknowledge that fact when it should and is really just a bit of Yanky Ego-Massage Tat because of it. Yeah, the bomb did help obviously but we still did more Kraut smashing than you guys and we smashed the fuck out of the Krauts more in the WW1 too. It's just what us Brits do best and if there was a WW3 which, clearly, would be started by Angela Murchle's hairy lip we would kick 9 shades of shit out of them again too and no doubt the Americans would be late for the party yet again because your Limo broke down on the way!
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yea it didn't help at all when america dropped the bomb on Japan
You mean when Germany was already defeated?
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Limitless I gather that you don't like Americans or America in general but in fact if America hadn't of stepped in during wwII then there would be no british empire but I am learning a lot from you man because it would seem to be the predatorial nature that comes out as the winner in this game
Actually Americans fought the runt of the litter where they landed while the Russians and Brits handled the real brute force of the Nazi Army.
*The more you know*
Although by doing so they got to the heart of Germany and infiltrated Nazi Headquarters. MERICUHHH, FUCK YEAH! COMING TO SAVE THE MOTHERFUCKIN DAY YEAH!
You dropped the Bomb on Japan yeah, but even though you fucked yourselves over at D-Day we still took more casualties that day than you guys anyway. That's what pisses me off so much about Saving Private Ryan because it doesn't acknowledge that fact when it should and is really just a bit of Yanky Ego-Massage Tat because of it. Yeah, the bomb did help obviously but we still did more Kraut smashing than you guys and we smashed the fuck out of the Krauts more in the WW1 too. It's just what us Brits do best and if there was a WW3 which, clearly, would be started by Angela Murchle's hairy lip we would kick 9 shades of shit out of them again too and no doubt the Americans would be late for the party yet again because your Limo broke down on the way!
But you can't knock our style. We're neutral until we've profited enough by funding both sides of the war
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Limitless I gather that you don't like Americans or America in general but in fact if America hadn't of stepped in during wwII then there would be no british empire but I am learning a lot from you man because it would seem to be the predatorial nature that comes out as the winner in this game
Actually Americans fought the runt of the litter where they landed while the Russians and Brits handled the real brute force of the Nazi Army.
*The more you know*
Although by doing so they got to the heart of Germany and infiltrated Nazi Headquarters. MERICUHHH, FUCK YEAH! COMING TO SAVE THE MOTHERFUCKIN DAY YEAH!
You dropped the Bomb on Japan yeah, but even though you fucked yourselves over at D-Day we still took more casualties that day than you guys anyway. That's what pisses me off so much about Saving Private Ryan because it doesn't acknowledge that fact when it should and is really just a bit of Yanky Ego-Massage Tat because of it. Yeah, the bomb did help obviously but we still did more Kraut smashing than you guys and we smashed the fuck out of the Krauts more in the WW1 too. It's just what us Brits do best and if there was a WW3 which, clearly, would be started by Angela Murchle's hairy lip we would kick 9 shades of shit out of them again too and no doubt the Americans would be late for the party yet again because your Limo broke down on the way!
But you can't knock our style. We're neutral until we've profited enough by funding both sides of the war
Oh yeah for that I take my hat off to you, but again, you can't take too much credit for it. You are just following the same pattern as we implemented when we had the Empire. ;)
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Keyword, "HAD" the empire We took your method and perfected it along with some propaganda teaching of Nazi Germany :P
Qusestion: To what extent does Britain hold power over the nation in the Commonwealth?
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Keyword, "HAD" the empire We took your method and perfected it along with some propaganda teaching of Nazi Germany :P
Qusestion: To what extent does Britain hold power over the nation in the Commonwealth?
Yeah, yeah I know it's a "had" but we love to get nostalgic about it yano?
Basically to the nations in the Commonwealth the Queen is still classed as their head of state and the vast majority of their governments are carbon-copy models of parliamentary-style politics and with legal systems based on English Common Law with some adaptations obviously. Their judiciary is connected to ours too but I can't quite remember exactly how but it's to do with the Law Lords if I recall correctly.
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Limitless I gather that you don't like Americans or America in general but in fact if America hadn't of stepped in during wwII then there would be no british empire but I am learning a lot from you man because it would seem to be the predatorial nature that comes out as the winner in this game
Really confusing what you're saying about the British Empire here, the Empire ended after WWII, the colonies were given their independence, the Empire had existed nigh on two centuries prior to that, so "there would be no british empire" really doesn't make a lot of sense now does it? In fact now I think about it wasn't the British Empire in existence before the United States? Oh yes of fucking course it fucking was North America was fucking part of it wasn't it!
Jesus tittyfucking Christ ignorance astounds me at times.
Before you start, I'm not just arbitrarily bashing Americans (United States-ians, that is there are many other countries in the Americas you know guys) I'm merely trying to point out that your assertion about the British Empire is factually grossly inaccurate.
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Keyword, "HAD" the empire We took your method and perfected it along with some propaganda teaching of Nazi Germany :P
Qusestion: To what extent does Britain hold power over the nation in the Commonwealth?
Yeah, yeah I know it's a "had" but we love to get nostalgic about it yano?
Basically to the nations in the Commonwealth the Queen is still classed as their head of state and the vast majority of their governments are carbon-copy models of parliamentary-style politics and with legal systems based on English Common Law with some adaptations obviously. Their judiciary is connected to ours too but I can't quite remember exactly how but it's to do with the Law Lords if I recall correctly.
So if shit hits the fan and Britain goes to war, Ole' Mum can pull the entire Commonwealth into the shenanigans?
Jesus tittyfucking Christ ignorance astounds me at times.
Oh ignore him, that's just ralph. He failed at life so hard, he's semi-broke and doesn't even has custody of his own son. He's one of those people that appears smart to the average American by keeping his sewage-seeping mouth open. Did you know the average American has an IQ of 90? That's fucking sad man; the average chimp has an IQ of 65, you know what that means? They're closer to intelligence to the average chimp then they are to most of us here.
But that only proves your point doesn't it :P
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Yes in theory she can I believe, not 100% though so don't quote me on it. They can also join our army if they move here as well and I believe they can get citizenship through doing this. Gotta keep it Roman. ;)
And LOL don't hold back Caparino, just say what you feel. :P
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They can also join our army if they move here as well and I believe they can get citizenship through doing this. Gotta keep it Roman. ;)
Well if you're a Nepalese Gurkha you can, now, thanks to Joanna Lumley!
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Keyword, "HAD" the empire We took your method and perfected it along with some propaganda teaching of Nazi Germany :P
Qusestion: To what extent does Britain hold power over the nation in the Commonwealth?
Yeah, yeah I know it's a "had" but we love to get nostalgic about it yano?
Basically to the nations in the Commonwealth the Queen is still classed as their head of state and the vast majority of their governments are carbon-copy models of parliamentary-style politics and with legal systems based on English Common Law with some adaptations obviously. Their judiciary is connected to ours too but I can't quite remember exactly how but it's to do with the Law Lords if I recall correctly.
So if shit hits the fan and Britain goes to war, Ole' Mum can pull the entire Commonwealth into the shenanigans?
Jesus tittyfucking Christ ignorance astounds me at times.
Oh ignore him, that's just ralph. He failed at life so hard, he's semi-broke and doesn't even has custody of his own son. He's one of those people that appears smart to the average American by keeping his sewage-seeping mouth open. Did you know the average American has an IQ of 90? That's fucking sad man; the average chimp has an IQ of 65, you know what that means? They're closer to intelligence to the average chimp then they are to most of us here.
But that only proves your point doesn't it :P
Thanks, I think,
Chimps, yes quite, have you seen George W Bush? Worrying really, they've got literally fuck-tonnes of nuclear weapons you know!
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They can also join our army if they move here as well and I believe they can get citizenship through doing this. Gotta keep it Roman. ;)
Well if you're a Nepalese Gurkha you can, now, thanks to Joanna Lumley!
Ah yes that's right. I do believe that you can serve if you are from a Commonwealth nation as well though.
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They can also join our army if they move here as well and I believe they can get citizenship through doing this. Gotta keep it Roman. ;)
Well if you're a Nepalese Gurkha you can, now, thanks to Joanna Lumley!
Ah yes that's right. I do believe that you can serve if you are from a Commonwealth nation as well though.
yeah, but, (I think) you can't become a citizen though, unless you is a Nepalese Gurkha, because Joanna Lumley said so, and the government was like scared to argue with her because Ab Fab is like some sort of National Treasure like the crown jewels or something, so Lumley was all like "let these Gurkhas live here or there's never gonna be another Ab Fab Christmas special" and the govt back peddled like a sun of a bitch,
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Yeah but Joanna Lumley did kick ass by doing that, the Gov was acting shamefully anyway so they deserved it.
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Yeah but Joanna Lumley did kick ass by doing that, the Gov was acting shamefully anyway so they deserved it.
Oh yeah, fully, I'm not dissing her, she was a fucking legend throughout the whole fucking debacle, in fact I've just remembered that thread the other day about who we'd vote as PM, I'm gonna go for Joanna Lumley I reckon, she cool.
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Yeah but Joanna Lumley did kick ass by doing that, the Gov was acting shamefully anyway so they deserved it.
Oh yeah, fully, I'm not dissing her, she was a fucking legend throughout the whole fucking debacle, in fact I've just remembered that thread the other day about who we'd vote as PM, I'm gonna go for Joanna Lumley I reckon, she cool.
Yeah she would be quite good as PM I think, either her or Boris. Fuck Dave, he's just a wet flannel.
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Yeah but Joanna Lumley did kick ass by doing that, the Gov was acting shamefully anyway so they deserved it.
Oh yeah, fully, I'm not dissing her, she was a fucking legend throughout the whole fucking debacle, in fact I've just remembered that thread the other day about who we'd vote as PM, I'm gonna go for Joanna Lumley I reckon, she cool.
Yeah she would be quite good as PM I think, either her or Boris. Fuck Dave, he's just a wet flannel.
lol knew you'd go for Boris, 'fraid we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one though, I think he's a 1st class cunt, (a very entertaining cunt, but a cunt nonetheless), Dave is a wet flannel, if said flannel has been used to soak up piss and shit.
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Yeah but Joanna Lumley did kick ass by doing that, the Gov was acting shamefully anyway so they deserved it.
Oh yeah, fully, I'm not dissing her, she was a fucking legend throughout the whole fucking debacle, in fact I've just remembered that thread the other day about who we'd vote as PM, I'm gonna go for Joanna Lumley I reckon, she cool.
Yeah she would be quite good as PM I think, either her or Boris. Fuck Dave, he's just a wet flannel.
lol knew you'd go for Boris, 'fraid we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one though, I think he's a 1st class cunt, (a very entertaining cunt, but a cunt nonetheless), Dave is a wet flannel, if said flannel has been used to soak up piss and shit.
Ahhhh man you can't knock Boris, guy's a 5 star legend. I am guessing you don't agree with his politics no? You swing to the left?
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Yeah but Joanna Lumley did kick ass by doing that, the Gov was acting shamefully anyway so they deserved it.
Oh yeah, fully, I'm not dissing her, she was a fucking legend throughout the whole fucking debacle, in fact I've just remembered that thread the other day about who we'd vote as PM, I'm gonna go for Joanna Lumley I reckon, she cool.
Yeah she would be quite good as PM I think, either her or Boris. Fuck Dave, he's just a wet flannel.
lol knew you'd go for Boris, 'fraid we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one though, I think he's a 1st class cunt, (a very entertaining cunt, but a cunt nonetheless), Dave is a wet flannel, if said flannel has been used to soak up piss and shit.
Ahhhh man you can't knock Boris, guy's a 5 star legend. I am guessing you don't agree with his politics no? You swing to the left?
Hahahaha as I said he entertains me, but, we're gonna have to agree to disagree, make of that what you will, and as to how I swing, which side my cock dangles is my fuckin own business thank you very much 8)
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Lol how rude of me, I do apologize for asking such a personal question. :P
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Lol how rude of me, I do apologize for asking such a personal question. :P
indeed! lol
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A Florida based Gulfstream II jet aircraft # N987SA crash landed on September 24, 2007 after it ran out of fuel over Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula it had a cargo of several tons of Cocaine on board now documents have turned up on both sides of the Atlantic that link this Cocaine Smuggling Gulfstream II jet aircraft # N987SA that crashed in Mexico to the CIA who used it on at least 3 rendition flights from Europe and the USA to Guantanamo's infamous torture chambers between 2003 to 2005.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oszATUJ4IRE
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In Europe it's grown legitimately and illicitly in France, Spain, Italy and the UK, in fact I personally know people who grow and harvest opium in Spain and the UK.
Sorry Pine never seen you be so wrong before, but botanically stay quiet.
I don't have a problem being wrong Neville! But I am curious about why I haven't heard of any real opium/heroin production busts in Europe or America e.g. underground farms. I have trouble believing LE has a 100% success rate at preventing heroin production right next to the consumer base. I have heard of only 1 bust, and that was an addicted couple trying to produce opiates in their backyard, literally a 2 bit affair, I don't think they succeeded in doing it. There seems to be a mysterious absence of information. Maybe this is a purely perceptual thing and it is the economics of the business itself that make it seem peculiar. e.g. LSD busts are relatively uncommon because of concentration of production.
Then why do you PERHAPS pretend to be female when you are male? :P Aren't you, if that is the case of course, treating people like dumbasses?
I don't believe I've inferred my sex in any of my posts and I have never declared that I am male or female for abundantly obvious reasons. This just seems to be an obsession some of you have, demanding to know something which is none of your business in any way whatsoever. This place looks remarkably like an anonymous forum to me, not a bar.
As for the rest of your post I think you conflate pragmatism with, basically, pushing other people around. I'm pretty sure the Kennedy family were perfectly capable of being both pragmatic and idealistic, they're practically an archetypical example of such. It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from Limetless, it is that I think you are just mistaken.
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Coercion doesn't work and this is why:
Using coercive methods doesn't make you a better businessman. Any advantages gained are usually temporary and maintenance of control becomes cyclic, it is rather similar to drug tolerance side effect. Next time you ride up with a baseball bat, people will be ready with knives, and so it goes. Since we are talking about heroin in this thread, compare and contrast the Italian Mafia and the Nigerian Igbo. Both deal in heroin. But although everybody imagines the Mafia have No.1 position in the market, this is not true. In fact the Igbo have control over approximately 90% of the market directly and indirectly, but almost nobody has heard of them. Do you know why? Because they don't kill, torture or threaten very many people. In fact in Igbo culture violence is relatively unusual in comparison to the Italian crime syndicates. This neatly puts them out of the spotlight, and they just deal. The key thing is ROI and they know it.
Similarly, SR is highly effective at allowing vendors to 'just deal'. All that macho bullshit belongs to the 20th century. Something like 10 or 20 vendors have already been kicked off this site for threatening their customers. At SR, customer is King and we have a symbiotic relationship.
Violence should be necessary only in the situation where we are defending ourselves against the enemy. This is not a idealistic philosophy, it is a pragmatic one. Violence is a last resort, but if it comes necessary to apply it, I shall not hold back my paw. You'll notice LE agents adopt zero tolerance policies when their fellows are murdered (even if it is not a written rule). This is in fact for good reason, otherwise anybody in the wrong uniform becomes a target across the city and a cycle of intimidation begins leading to more cop deaths. It is necessary, as they know well, to cut off any possible retaliation by use of overwhelming force to extinguish all opposition. This ultimately saves more lives than it kills. So, killing cops is a dumb idea on several accounts. But if the police begin indiscriminately murdering hundreds of drug vendors in some manner of moral purge, like the one Chairman Mao orchestrated, then it is a fight to the death.
Basically, it behooves both drug vendors and LE to stay within the rules of the game, and that is why non violence is always preferable to violence. kmfkewm and shannon have mentioned rationales for punishing state violence via mail bombing, but that is a non-starter for me on 2 accounts.
1. It is bad and obviously I have sympathy for drug war victims but there is no purge. One, or even a group of cops making a dumb mistake is not the same as a nation wide purge.
2. If you have to retaliate, then mail bombing is simply ineffective. It is indirect, meaning collateral damage and bad PR = less supporters and it also doesn't kill anywhere near enough people to be an example of overwhelming force. It's like using a peashooters vs a cannon.
So in summation, the argument against coercion is that (google game theory: prisoner's dilemma scenario) it is usually Tit for Tat algorithm works most optimally, with the proviso that you initially cooperate with the other fellow in a gesture of good faith.
Now you may be thinking: Ah! Those geeks! Hilarious! They know nothing of the "Real World".
But actually the geeks are always right. And do you know what Limetless? In some ways the geeks have bigger guns. In another sense SR's biggest weapon is precisely that it doesn't have a standing army of enforcers.
-- peaceful platypus
A Florida based Gulfstream II jet aircraft # N987SA crash landed on September 24, 2007 after it ran out of fuel over Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula it had a cargo of several tons of Cocaine on board..
It worries me that anybody could be so incompetent to smuggle tonnes of cocaine without storing enough fuel for the journey and extra for backup.
You know, even a non violent platypus can understand why heads may roll in Mexico. Some black market workers are very clever people. But then you have this not inconsiderable number of people who are the dumbest people I've ever met in my life, they are there, not by choice but purely because they couldn't get work in any other sector of the economy (and I don't mean for good reasons, like there being no job openings). I avoid them on general principals. I'm not running a fucking welfare state here.
That aside, I wish Americans would wake up and realize these "rendition flights" are going to come back and bite them in the ass on an epic scale. Nobody will feel any sympathy for America if more terrorist attacks occur. None. The world will say you brought it down on your own head by doing Fascist-like things. And maybe they are right. Any true patriot should be looking at the state of America's morality on this subject with great concern. Why is there so little public protest over the fact America has a concentration camp on its doorstep? I didn't have much hope for Obama but I did hope he'd reverse the trend of increasing state paranoia. So I'm as disillusioned as a democrat.
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Lol I was pulling your leg about the man/woman thing Pine, I think you should know full well that I could give less of a fuck what you are lol. It is of no interest to me in the slightest. You need to chill. :P
I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree with you on your thoughts on coercion. I don't really see the real world as an algorithm, isn't in my mindset to do so and I find that when people do it's an inherently floored outlook to take.
Also, the "we are always right" doesn't really make my ears prick up much either. It's a typical I.T geek standpoint to take. ;)
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In Europe it's grown legitimately and illicitly in France, Spain, Italy and the UK, in fact I personally know people who grow and harvest opium in Spain and the UK.
Sorry Pine never seen you be so wrong before, but botanically stay quiet.
I don't have a problem being wrong Neville! But I am curious about why I haven't heard of any real opium/heroin production busts in Europe or America e.g. underground farms. I have trouble believing LE has a 100% success rate at preventing heroin production right next to the consumer base. I have heard of only 1 bust, and that was an addicted couple trying to produce opiates in their backyard, literally a 2 bit affair, I don't think they succeeded in doing it. There seems to be a mysterious absence of information. Maybe this is a purely perceptual thing and it is the economics of the business itself that make it seem peculiar. e.g. LSD busts are relatively uncommon because of concentration of production.
Then why do you PERHAPS pretend to be female when you are male? :P Aren't you, if that is the case of course, treating people like dumbasses?
I don't believe I've inferred my sex in any of my posts and I have never declared that I am male or female for abundantly obvious reasons. This just seems to be an obsession some of you have, demanding to know something which is none of your business in any way whatsoever. This place looks remarkably like an anonymous forum to me, not a bar.
As for the rest of your post I think you conflate pragmatism with, basically, pushing other people around. I'm pretty sure the Kennedy family were perfectly capable of being both pragmatic and idealistic, they're practically an archetypical example of such. It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from Limetless, it is that I think you are just mistaken.
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Coercion doesn't work and this is why:
Using coercive methods doesn't make you a better businessman. Any advantages gained are usually temporary and maintenance of control becomes cyclic, it is rather similar to drug tolerance side effect. Next time you ride up with a baseball bat, people will be ready with knives, and so it goes. Since we are talking about heroin in this thread, compare and contrast the Italian Mafia and the Nigerian Igbo. Both deal in heroin. But although everybody imagines the Mafia have No.1 position in the market, this is not true. In fact the Igbo have control over approximately 90% of the market directly and indirectly, but almost nobody has heard of them. Do you know why? Because they don't kill, torture or threaten very many people. In fact in Igbo culture violence is relatively unusual in comparison to the Italian crime syndicates. This neatly puts them out of the spotlight, and they just deal. The key thing is ROI and they know it.
Similarly, SR is highly effective at allowing vendors to 'just deal'. All that macho bullshit belongs to the 20th century. Something like 10 or 20 vendors have already been kicked off this site for threatening their customers. At SR, customer is King and we have a symbiotic relationship.
Violence should be necessary only in the situation where we are defending ourselves against the enemy. This is not a idealistic philosophy, it is a pragmatic one. Violence is a last resort, but if it comes necessary to apply it, I shall not hold back my paw. You'll notice LE agents adopt zero tolerance policies when their fellows are murdered (even if it is not a written rule). This is in fact for good reason, otherwise anybody in the wrong uniform becomes a target across the city and a cycle of intimidation begins leading to more cop deaths. It is necessary, as they know well, to cut off any possible retaliation by use of overwhelming force to extinguish all opposition. This ultimately saves more lives than it kills. So, killing cops is a dumb idea on several accounts. But if the police begin indiscriminately murdering hundreds of drug vendors in some manner of moral purge, like the one Chairman Mao orchestrated, then it is a fight to the death.
Basically, it behooves both drug vendors and LE to stay within the rules of the game, and that is why non violence is always preferable to violence. kmfkewm and shannon have mentioned rationales for punishing state violence via mail bombing, but that is a non-starter for me on 2 accounts.
1. It is bad and obviously I have sympathy for drug war victims but there is no purge. One, or even a group of cops making a dumb mistake is not the same as a nation wide purge.
2. If you have to retaliate, then mail bombing is simply ineffective. It is indirect, meaning collateral damage and bad PR = less supporters and it also doesn't kill anywhere near enough people to be an example of overwhelming force. It's like using a peashooters vs a cannon.
So in summation, the argument against coercion is that (google game theory: prisoner's dilemma scenario) it is usually Tit for Tat algorithm works most optimally, with the proviso that you initially cooperate with the other fellow in a gesture of good faith.
Now you may be thinking: Ah! Those geeks! Hilarious! They know nothing of the "Real World".
But actually the geeks are always right. And do you know what Limetless? In some ways the geeks have bigger guns. In another sense SR's biggest weapon is precisely that it doesn't have a standing army of enforcers.
-- peaceful platypus
A Florida based Gulfstream II jet aircraft # N987SA crash landed on September 24, 2007 after it ran out of fuel over Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula it had a cargo of several tons of Cocaine on board..
It worries me that anybody could be so incompetent to smuggle tonnes of cocaine without storing enough fuel for the journey and extra for backup.
You know, even a non violent platypus can understand why heads may roll in Mexico. Some black market workers are very clever people. But then you have this not inconsiderable number of people who are the dumbest people I've ever met in my life, they are there, not by choice but purely because they couldn't get work in any other sector of the economy (and I don't mean for good reasons, like there being no job openings). I avoid them on general principals. I'm not running a fucking welfare state here.
That aside, I wish Americans would wake up and realize these "rendition flights" are going to come back and bite them in the ass on an epic scale. Nobody will feel any sympathy for America if more terrorist attacks occur. None. The world will say you brought it down on your own head by doing Fascist-like things. And maybe they are right. Any true patriot should be looking at the state of America's morality on this subject with great concern. Why is there so little public protest over the fact America has a concentration camp on its doorstep? I didn't have much hope for Obama but I did hope he'd reverse the trend of increasing state paranoia. So I'm as disillusioned as a democrat.
Please don't get all platypus spurs at me, my intention wasn't to "bash" you in any way, I was just surprised as you seem to be right pretty much the rest of the time.
But please trust me they grow Opium all over Europe, I can with absolute certainty assure you all the Opium I've ever imbibed was grown in Europe, in fact I've seen Spanish, French and UK opium for sale here on the Road.
Also I slightly object to this "opium/heroin" thing you do, very different things opium and heroin, growing and producing opium doesn't always have to lead to heroin manufacture.
Sorry if I come across as irritated it's just that opium's quite wonderful and has a myriad positive medicinal applications and has been used for thousands of years, it's one of the oldest cultivated plants, whereas heroin's the brand name of a big pharma corporation's failed attempt to find a non-addictive alternative to morphine, which is just one of the thirty something active compounds in the opium poppy, so you see "opium/heroin" irritates me, they're VERY VERY different things opium and heroin.
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Opium/Heroine is a bad drug guys. Don't partake in doing Opium/Heroine or selling it because you're just helping enslave and ruin the lives of millions across this planet
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Opium/Heroine is a bad drug guys. Don't partake in doing Opium/Heroine or selling it because you're just helping enslave and ruin the lives of millions across this planet
Lol nobody is suggesting that mate. Read through the thread mate. :P
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Opium/Heroine is a bad drug guys. Don't partake in doing Opium/Heroine or selling it because you're just helping enslave and ruin the lives of millions across this planet
Lol nobody is suggesting that mate. Read through the thread mate. :P
I know you wouldn't do such a thing Lim, you know the truth about Opium/Heroine
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Opium/Heroine is a bad drug guys. Don't partake in doing Opium/Heroine or selling it because you're just helping enslave and ruin the lives of millions across this planet
referring to the two very distinct things opium and heroin as "opium/heroin" as if they are one entity really gets on my tits, luckily it seems to be mostly americans/retards who do it :)
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Opium/Heroine is a bad drug guys. Don't partake in doing Opium/Heroine or selling it because you're just helping enslave and ruin the lives of millions across this planet
Lol nobody is suggesting that mate. Read through the thread mate. :P
I know you wouldn't do such a thing Lim, you know the truth about Opium/Heroine
And all the other opiates barring Tramadol, and to be honest it took me a while to to do that.
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Please don't get all platypus spurs at me, my intention wasn't to "bash" you in any way, I was just surprised as you seem to be right pretty much the rest of the time.
But please trust me they grow Opium all over Europe, I can with absolute certainty assure you all the Opium I've ever imbibed was grown in Europe, in fact I've seen Spanish, French and UK opium for sale here on the Road.
Also I slightly object to this "opium/heroin" thing you do, very different things opium and heroin, growing and producing opium doesn't always have to lead to heroin manufacture.
Sorry if I come across as irritated it's just that opium's quite wonderful and has a myriad positive medicinal applications and has been used for thousands of years, it's one of the oldest cultivated plants, whereas heroin's the brand name of a big pharma corporation's failed attempt to find a non-addictive alternative to morphine, which is just one of the thirty something active compounds in the opium poppy, so you see "opium/heroin" irritates me, they're VERY VERY different things opium and heroin.
I think we're having crossed wires here, I'm not annoyed at you and you weren't bashing me.
I do the opium/heroin thing because in the west, heroin is the major derivative used, but in Asia opium is used much more. So one plant produces two powerful drugs with large consumer bases. I am not confusing h and opium, I know they're different.
It's marvelous that the poppy produces so many useful drugs, if you look at all, and I do mean nearly all, the major painkillers that actually work, they are all poppy based e.g. Vicodin, codeine, morphine et al. Opiates are exceptionally powerful drugs, and to be honest I don't think the scientific establishment actually understands them because there are far more people addicted to doctor's prescriptions of some opiate derivative than recreational drug consumers.
Since we are mentioning bugbears, my bugbear is that everybody seems to use, even in scientific papers, the word 'narcotic' as a label for many illegal drugs, as if it were a synonym. Actually narcotic are a very specific group of drugs, namely the opiates, morphine, heroin, codeine and opium being the major ones. All the other drugs are not narcotics.
I'm looking at you Mr Nicolas Christin. -.-
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Opium/Heroine is a bad drug guys. Don't partake in doing Opium/Heroine or selling it because you're just helping enslave and ruin the lives of millions across this planet
Lol nobody is suggesting that mate. Read through the thread mate. :P
I know you wouldn't do such a thing Lim, you know the truth about Opium/Heroine
And all the other opiates barring Tramadol, and to be honest it took me a while to to do that.
Good man, Opium/Heroin are at the shitty extremes of the drug awesomeness spectrum
Edit: Opium Heroin is at...* I was almost an idiot and referred to it as separate drugs lol
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to be honest I don't think the scientific establishment actually understands them because there are far more people addicted to doctor's prescriptions of some opiate derivative than recreational drug consumers.
Trust me. They DO understand.
When you go to medical school, one of the first things they will flash at the student are statistics and graphs about how much abuse/mortality from prescription drugs have risen in last 20 years while the abuse/mortality from "street" or illegal substances have not changed much.
In the medical field, the opioid problem begun in 80s when the medical industry decided to include "pain" as one of the vital signs of the patient. Thus, if there was ANY pain, the doctors were taught to supply the patients with painkillers to eradicate pain at all cost. Now, the FDA, AMA, and DEA have seen the result of this practice. Patients are now going into hospitals to be treated and coming out as narcotic addicts.
DEA is coming down HARD on doctors and pharmacies now than ever. Many states have or are in process of incorporating centralized narcotics prescription database for all patients
DEA actually just took away DEA license from two CVS pharmacies in Florida last month. This is the first time such thing happened to a huge national chain pharmacy like CVS who thought they were infallible.
Many pharmaceutical companies are focusing on making newer and synthetic painkillers without the addictiveness of the opioid derivative painkillers because it will be hugely promoted and heavily used in the medical community if such drug came out in the current crisis of prescription addiction we're facing.
Sorry for the random conjecture, I haven't read the whole thread but just wanted to drop my 2 cents.
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Please don't get all platypus spurs at me, my intention wasn't to "bash" you in any way, I was just surprised as you seem to be right pretty much the rest of the time.
But please trust me they grow Opium all over Europe, I can with absolute certainty assure you all the Opium I've ever imbibed was grown in Europe, in fact I've seen Spanish, French and UK opium for sale here on the Road.
Also I slightly object to this "opium/heroin" thing you do, very different things opium and heroin, growing and producing opium doesn't always have to lead to heroin manufacture.
Sorry if I come across as irritated it's just that opium's quite wonderful and has a myriad positive medicinal applications and has been used for thousands of years, it's one of the oldest cultivated plants, whereas heroin's the brand name of a big pharma corporation's failed attempt to find a non-addictive alternative to morphine, which is just one of the thirty something active compounds in the opium poppy, so you see "opium/heroin" irritates me, they're VERY VERY different things opium and heroin.
I think we're having crossed wires here, I'm not annoyed at you and you weren't bashing me.
I do the opium/heroin thing because in the west, heroin is the major derivative used, but in Asia opium is used much more. So one plant produces two powerful drugs with large consumer bases. I am not confusing h and opium, I know they're different.
It's marvelous that the poppy produces so many useful drugs, if you look at all, and I do mean nearly all, the major painkillers that actually work, they are all poppy based e.g. Vicodin, codeine, morphine et al. Opiates are exceptionally powerful drugs, and to be honest I don't think the scientific establishment actually understands them because there are far more people addicted to doctor's prescriptions of some opiate derivative than recreational drug consumers.
Since we are mentioning bugbears, my bugbear is that everybody seems to use, even in scientific papers, the word 'narcotic' as a label for many illegal drugs, as if it were a synonym. Actually narcotic are a very specific group of drugs, namely the opiates, morphine, heroin, codeine and opium being the major ones. All the other drugs are not narcotics.
I'm looking at you Mr Nicolas Christin. -.-
Glad we're cool, I thought I'd ruffled your feathers (I know platypus lay eggs but don't have feathers blah blah) which wasn't my intention.
I'm in total agreement with you on the "narcotic" thing, most drugs aren't narcotics so the lazy terminology is frustrating, but hey I'm pedantic enough to be annoyed Silkroad classes salvia as a psychedelic not a dissociative, (admins you reading this?), don't even get me started on newspaper and TV news reports riddled with "drug users, drug addicts, drug abusers" but without ever troubling themselves to name the specific drugs involved, that's a major bugbear of mine.
It's true what you say almost all modern painkillers are opium derivatives, and some research should confirm that these derivatives have consistently been considerably more addictive, more physically harmful and more socially disruptive than pure opium has ever been. Ever since morphine appeared over a hundred years ago the opium derivatives have become increasingly addictive and less medicinally effective. Whole opium is a much safer drug than it's derivatives. This is why I get so pissed off when I see H and opium lumped together, it maligns the character of opium, "heroin" is an emotive word, decades of prohibition propaganda make it practically impossible for the word not to conjour images of destitution and depravity in the minds of most average "straight" people, (anyone remember Zammo off Grange Hill?) and heroin to some extent deserves it's reputation, please don't (black) tar opium with the same brush.
Please don't "do the opium/heroin thing" in future, because although I've seen that you understand the considerable differences between the two substances it's clear that the majority of people, even here, don't (see the post a little further up) and this is something I feel should be rectified, disinformation about drugs is a weapon of the prohibitionists, we as drug users should be disseminating information, not disinformation, and in my humble opinion this "opium/heroin" only serves to further the myth that they are the same thing, which they aren't.
Peace
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Hard to prove anything, i wouldn't be surprised if hey have some input in the supply, but i doubt they control much.
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@Neville Bartoz Sorry, but most of what your saying is just rubbish. Here is some articles I've copied and pasted from Wikipedia, which I've edited to leave the points I feel are most relevant. :)
Opium contains two main groups of alkaloids. Phenanthrenes such as morphine, codeine, and thebaine are the main narcotic constituents. Isoquinolines such as papaverine and noscapine have no significant central nervous system effects, and are not regulated under the Controlled Substances Act. Morphine is the most prevalent and important alkaloid in opium, consisting of 10%–16% of the total. Morphine binds to and activates mu opioid receptor in the brain, spinal cord, stomach and intestine. Both analgesia and drug addiction are functions of the mu opioid receptor, the class of opioid receptor first identified as responsive to morphine.
Heroin (diacetylmorphine or morphine diacetate (INN)), also known as diamorphine (BAN), is an opiate analgesic synthesized by C.R. Alder Wright in 1874 by adding two acetyl groups to the molecule morphine found in the opium poppy. When used in medicine it is typically used to treat severe pain. It is the 3,6-diacetyl ester of morphine, and functions as a morphine prodrug (meaning that it is metabolically converted to morphine inside the body in order for it to work). Under the chemical name diamorphine, diacetylmorphine is prescribed as a strong analgesic in the United Kingdom. Its use includes treatment for acute pain, such as in severe physical trauma, myocardial infarction, post-surgical pain, and chronic pain, including end-stage cancer and other terminal illnesses. In other countries it is more common to use morphine or other strong opioids in these situations. The advantage of diacetylmorphine over morphine is that diacetylmorphine is more fat soluble and therefore more potent (by injection only), so smaller doses of it are needed for the same analgesic effect. Both of these factors are advantageous if giving high doses of opioids via the subcutaneous route, which is often necessary in palliative care.
In China recreational use of this drug began in the fifteenth century but was limited by its rarity and expense. Opium trade became more regular by the seventeenth century, when it was mixed with tobacco for smoking, and addiction was first recognized. Opium prohibition in China began in 1729 yet was followed by nearly two centuries of increasing opium use. China had a positive balance sheet in trading with the British, which led to a decrease of the British silver stocks. Therefore, the British tried to encourage Chinese opium use to enhance their balance, and they delivered it from Indian provinces under British control. In India, its cultivation, as well as the manufacture and traffic to China, were subject to the East India Company, as a strict monopoly of the British government. A massive confiscation of opium by the Chinese emperor, who tried to stop the opium deliveries, led to two Opium Wars in 1839 and 1858, in which Britain suppressed China and traded opium all over the country. After 1860, opium use continued to increase with widespread domestic production in China, until more than a quarter of the male population were regular consumers by 1905.
Global regulation of opium began with the stigmatization of Chinese immigrants and opium dens in San Francisco, California, leading rapidly from town ordinances in the 1870s to the formation of the International Opium Commission in 1909. During this period, the portrayal of opium in literature became squalid and violent, British opium trade was largely supplanted by domestic Chinese production, purified morphine and heroin became widely available for injection, and patent medicines containing opiates reached a peak of popularity. Opium was prohibited in many countries during the early twentieth century, leading to the modern pattern of opium production as a precursor for illegal recreational drugs or tightly regulated legal prescription drugs. Illicit opium production, now dominated by Afghanistan, was decimated in 2000 when production was banned by the Taliban, but has increased steadily since the fall of the Taliban in 2001 and over the course of the War in Afghanistan. Worldwide production in 2006 was 6610 metric tons—nearly one-fifth the level of production in 1906.
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So are you saying you were not aware that the CIA is one of the biggest drug smuggling operations?
Next thing you know you will say that you are not aware that the CIA put Osama Bin Laden, Castro, and Saddam Husein in charge of their respective countries. Not to count that they are responsible for the current state of the Iranian government.
Not all of us are CIA experts. I certainly never heard about this before, but it's ridiculous: what a dishonest agency.
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yes indeed America's cartel doing what it does :-X
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Opium prohibition in China began in 1729 yet was followed by nearly two centuries of increasing opium use. China had a positive balance sheet in trading with the British, which led to a decrease of the British silver stocks. Therefore, the British tried to encourage Chinese opium use to enhance their balance...
This is why I'm not a big fan of metal/commodity based currencies. Hoarding metals has historically lead to conflict in at least two occasions I can think of. One person hoarding isn't an issue, but an entire nation doing it can lead to ruin. It brought down the Spanish and Chinese imperial powers (for different reasons, the Spanish one was superinflation) and probably others too. Although I disagree with Keynes's ideas, the fact of the matter is that he is correct that hoarding can become a real problem (I'm not keen on his solution, but the problem is real). If humans were rational as a full unit or set, hoarding shouldn't occur. The Chinese would have traded because it benefited them, a positive sum game (you could argue fairly successfully here the real problem was massive centralization [so that some people in the Chinese government benefited hugely from suppressing other people's freedoms even though as a whole the Chinese people lost out] with the Opium Wars simply being a side effect, a kind of diabolical excuse and that sooner or later War would have broken out on some kind of pretext anyway).
tldr; Centralization works on a small scale temporarily, but on a large scale (or if it continues for too long on a small scale) it leads to irrationality. For more, see "Communism". This is why Bitcoin is so important. It is decentralized and nobody controls output or distribution. Bitcoin may ultimately fail in its current incarnation, but cryptocurrencies are an opportunity to make a break with the past and will cause the world to become a more rational place. The paradox: That nobody has power, implies we all gain power indirectly as a result. Very zen I feel. It is as if power in the human world, just as in physics, cannot be created or destroyed but only moved around in different ways, where centralization is collecting it into one place like a sandhill and markets are kicking it all over the beach. One looks more impressive than the other at first, but if you're around for a while you appreciate the subtle power of the market.
Note: All of the above is part of the reason that shutting down cryptocurrencies merely because they are used for illicit purposes is madness. There is the potential for a much, much better world than the one we currently live in, even if you don't like the Silk Road and darknet markets in particular. We are just the early adopters, we're doing the world a giant fucking favor by supporting cryptocurrency for reasons of self interest. Nonetheless, I don't expect LE to see that, so they will try to shut down the B$ exchanges sooner or later.
^ that's quite a tldr; I got going there, soz...
Real tldr; Bitcoin! Wooooooooooooot! Bitcoin! Fuck yeah!
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hey Pine i really enjoy reading you. I guess maybe it's because you come off as a straight forward honest person. I agree with you 100% about the bitcoin being a great currency. i also like the idea of anonymous browsing and not only for hidden sites but I'd like it to be for everyone on the entire internet for however long it will last before the world is converted to quantum computing and then the whole thing will start again. But yea I love this revolution thing we got going here
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the uk has companies allowed to grow weed probably loads to make thc sprays and stuff maybe only for foreign markets
the propaganda machine in the west has people believe the taliban are responsible for all h in afghan and us smackheads fund terrorism what bullshit ,they dont control all of afghan never mind h
the warlords,drug lords,northern alliance,gov and taliban all have there own areas and armys and they all make cash from drugs and there all our friends apart from taliban and there the least involved out the lot
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Please don't get all platypus spurs at me, my intention wasn't to "bash" you in any way, I was just surprised as you seem to be right pretty much the rest of the time.
But please trust me they grow Opium all over Europe, I can with absolute certainty assure you all the Opium I've ever imbibed was grown in Europe, in fact I've seen Spanish, French and UK opium for sale here on the Road.
Also I slightly object to this "opium/heroin" thing you do, very different things opium and heroin, growing and producing opium doesn't always have to lead to heroin manufacture.
Sorry if I come across as irritated it's just that opium's quite wonderful and has a myriad positive medicinal applications and has been used for thousands of years, it's one of the oldest cultivated plants, whereas heroin's the brand name of a big pharma corporation's failed attempt to find a non-addictive alternative to morphine, which is just one of the thirty something active compounds in the opium poppy, so you see "opium/heroin" irritates me, they're VERY VERY different things opium and heroin.
I think we're having crossed wires here, I'm not annoyed at you and you weren't bashing me.
I do the opium/heroin thing because in the west, heroin is the major derivative used, but in Asia opium is used much more. So one plant produces two powerful drugs with large consumer bases. I am not confusing h and opium, I know they're different.
It's marvelous that the poppy produces so many useful drugs, if you look at all, and I do mean nearly all, the major painkillers that actually work, they are all poppy based e.g. Vicodin, codeine, morphine et al. Opiates are exceptionally powerful drugs, and to be honest I don't think the scientific establishment actually understands them because there are far more people addicted to doctor's prescriptions of some opiate derivative than recreational drug consumers.
Since we are mentioning bugbears, my bugbear is that everybody seems to use, even in scientific papers, the word 'narcotic' as a label for many illegal drugs, as if it were a synonym. Actually narcotic are a very specific group of drugs, namely the opiates, morphine, heroin, codeine and opium being the major ones. All the other drugs are not narcotics.
I'm looking at you Mr Nicolas Christin. -.-
Please don't "do the opium/heroin thing" in future, because although I've seen that you understand the considerable differences between the two substances it's clear that the majority of people, even here, don't (see the post a little further up) and this is something I feel should be rectified, disinformation about drugs is a weapon of the prohibitionists, we as drug users should be disseminating information, not disinformation, and in my humble opinion this "opium/heroin" only serves to further the myth that they are the same thing, which they aren't.
Nev, I believe that this is what a forum is for. To express an opinion, debate issues and most importantly, educate all who use it. If you are knowledgeable in this area, perhaps throw it out there for others to comment on and in the process, be educated themselves. People need to embrace learning, as the saying goes, knowledge is power. :)
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yes please vent that shit out bro let it fly lol
;D
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hey Pine i really enjoy reading you. I guess maybe it's because you come off as a straight forward honest person. I agree with you 100% about the bitcoin being a great currency. i also like the idea of anonymous browsing and not only for hidden sites but I'd like it to be for everyone on the entire internet for however long it will last before the world is converted to quantum computing and then the whole thing will start again. But yea I love this revolution thing we got going here
Thanks Ralph, it is nice of you to say so :)
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I only read the first few posts, but 3 years ago i was drinking with my cousin and he is a very high in the military and he told me they kill bin laden but were keeping it quiet and i was skeptical but after they recently released that he was killed and the details of how and when it happened seemed suspect im starting to believe him so theres some more govt conspiracy for ya
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I read through this thread: it actually made me dumber....
There is no great conspiracy:
1 - the military and defense branches don't give a shit about some piddly ass 10's of billions of dollars of cocaine profits. That isn't shit. They have a MUCH more lucrative and reliable source of income: taxation. They need everyone working 40+ hr weeks and being productive and working their way into the next tax bracket. The last thing they want is their tax base on drugs and (god forbid) skipping work.
2 - people can't keep secrets. If there was some massive conspiracy to smuggle large amounts of drugs anywhere all sorts of leaks would occur. The US can't even keep the state department secret diplomatic cables under wraps and there's not even good juicy awesome secrets in that.
3 - nobody is controlling morphine supplies, any idiot can grow poppy, make opium, extract morphine, and (if they have acetic anhydride) make heroin. But it takes a LOT of poppy pods and is labor intensive on non-industrial scales. That sort of work is best left to poor people, not europeans & americans unless they're doing multi acre plots and harvesting with machinery. A better alternative is synthetic or semi-synthetic opioids derived from thebaine. Big Pharma has thebaine poppy producing farms all over the world and is using that to make a lot of the modern painkillers. And painbow is quite correct that govt/pharma/AMA is working hard to reduce access and lower addiction rates.
next thing you know somebody will be saying the US air force controls the weather, or that the space age came about from alien technology.
I blame it on the history channels, bunch of conspiracy theory bullshit on every night.
Best Regards,
Bob
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I read through this thread: it actually made me dumber....
There is no great conspiracy:
1 - the military and defense branches don't give a shit about some piddly ass 10's of billions of dollars of cocaine profits. That isn't shit. They have a MUCH more lucrative and reliable source of income: taxation. They need everyone working 40+ hr weeks and being productive and working their way into the next tax bracket. The last thing they want is their tax base on drugs and (god forbid) skipping work.
2 - people can't keep secrets. If there was some massive conspiracy to smuggle large amounts of drugs anywhere all sorts of leaks would occur. The US can't even keep the state department secret diplomatic cables under wraps and there's not even good juicy awesome secrets in that.
3 - nobody is controlling morphine supplies, any idiot can grow poppy, make opium, extract morphine, and (if they have acetic anhydride) make heroin. But it takes a LOT of poppy pods and is labor intensive on non-industrial scales. That sort of work is best left to poor people, not europeans & americans unless they're doing multi acre plots and harvesting with machinery. A better alternative is synthetic or semi-synthetic opioids derived from thebaine. Big Pharma has thebaine poppy producing farms all over the world and is using that to make a lot of the modern painkillers. And painbow is quite correct that govt/pharma/AMA is working hard to reduce access and lower addiction rates.
next thing you know somebody will be saying the US air force controls the weather, or that the space age came about from alien technology.
I blame it on the history channels, bunch of conspiracy theory bullshit on every night.
Best Regards,
Bob
+1000000
You mate, are a legend!
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next thing you know somebody will be saying the US air force controls the weather, or that the space age came about from alien technology.
I'm not saying it was aliens. But it was aliens. :P
3 - nobody is controlling morphine supplies, any idiot can grow poppy, make opium, extract morphine, and (if they have acetic anhydride) make heroin. But it takes a LOT of poppy pods and is labor intensive on non-industrial scales. That sort of work is best left to poor people, not europeans & americans unless they're doing multi acre plots and harvesting with machinery. A better alternative is synthetic or semi-synthetic opioids derived from thebaine. Big Pharma has thebaine poppy producing farms all over the world and is using that to make a lot of the modern painkillers. And painbow is quite correct that govt/pharma/AMA is working hard to reduce access and lower addiction rates.
Just one year after the Afghan invasion the charts showing poppy production in Afghanistan illustrate what appears to be a 10,000% + increase in production in terms of arable land cultivated for the poppy and it is said by the narcotics interdiction control people that there was a 17,000% production increase in the amount of heroin produced in that year.
But, no. Pine is clearly a crazy conspiracy theorist because there is no way that the American government would try to control poppy agronomy and therefore its principal product: morphine.
I find it funny that when production is down, it's reported as about "preventing heroin supply" and when product goes way up, it's about "stabilizing the Afghan economy to prevent terrorists getting up to their old tricks". Whatever sounds sweet to the listener.
It's an hilarious argument given that the Taliban cut poppy production by 95% the year before the Americans invaded.
The idea that nobody is controlling morphine supply is simply flying in the face of the numbers and their distribution. The UN states that there is a severe morphine shortage in the developing world for some time now, only 6% of the morphine makes its way to 80% of the population. It's not as if they don't have the money, I mean these are some of the producer countries and their neighbors we're talking about, for them it should essentially be at rock bottom prices. Yet it is not, which is probably because they don't control it.
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Pine, you could just as easily try to say the British are controlling it, they have camp bastion in helmand province which is the largest opium producing region in afghanistan, and they've recently sent prince harry there. That proves that the British royal family is trying to take control of morphine supplies.
it's a retarded argument. The British and American forces are having a hard enough time keeping people from shooting at them (or each other), they certainly aren't controlling the regional drug trade or farming practices in any way.
Before the invasion the opium production was way down, the ruling Taliban clerics declared it Un-Islamic and were trying to wipe drugs off the face of Afghanistan. I've read that the punishment for non-compliance was severe.
Then the Americans & Brits came, and blew the holy heck outta the Taliban, the new government lacks the fanatical religious devotion of the Taliban and can't effectively enforce it's laws. And the British and Americans don't care what the locals do so long as the locals aren't causing trouble for them. So what'ya think happens?
No wealthy western nations want or need morphine, we have big-Pharma and synthetic and semi-synthetic opioids and a host of other fancy-ass painkillers and drugs (of which we have plenty), maybe poor people rely on morphine more than us, I dunno and I don't care because nobody cares about poor people.
So what's the lessons to be learned here:
1-that fanatical religious institutions with absolute power CAN win the war on drugs. (so vote taliban in the november elections everyone)
2-The military doesn't give a squat about drugs so long as our soldiers aren't on them.
3-nobody cares about poor brownish people. (sad but true)
4-conspiracy theories are generally BS because conspiracies require people to keep secrets, and most people can't keep their mouths shut
Bob
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Pine, you could just as easily try to say the British are controlling it,
Yep. America-lite.
they have camp bastion in helmand province which is the largest opium producing region in afghanistan, and they've recently sent prince harry there. That proves that the British royal family is trying to take control of morphine supplies.
Huh? I do believe that is what is known as a strawman my friend! Shame! Mind you, go back a century or three and you're on the money, look at the English East India company and their charter.
it's a retarded argument. The British and American forces are having a hard enough time keeping people from shooting at them (or each other), they certainly aren't controlling the regional drug trade or farming practices in any way.
So what are the Northern Alliance? My imagination at work? Or did they not take control of the majority of opium production with the fall of the Taliban? I mean, was that not the deal?
Control is the ability to influence supply in the future. It doesn't mean they are currently, right now, measuring and organizing every kilo of morphine/h/opium supplied. They are sitting on it, probably not doing anything more than mandating supply be cut off to certain countries. e.g. Iran, Russia.
Before the invasion the opium production was way down, the ruling Taliban clerics declared it Un-Islamic and were trying to wipe drugs off the face of Afghanistan. I've read that the punishment for non-compliance was severe.
Then the Americans & Brits came, and blew the holy heck outta the Taliban, the new government lacks the fanatical religious devotion of the Taliban and can't effectively enforce it's laws. And the British and Americans don't care what the locals do so long as the locals aren't causing trouble for them. So what'ya think happens?
I think we are thinking about this in very different ways.
No wealthy western nations want or need morphine, we have big-Pharma and synthetic and semi-synthetic opioids and a host of other fancy-ass painkillers and drugs (of which we have plenty), maybe poor people rely on morphine more than us, I dunno and I don't care because nobody cares about poor people.
Well that's the thing, I am not sure this is true. If there are cheaper synthetic painkillers that are as effective as morphine & co (there is probably a scale of some sort we could look up), then my argument is invalided. I said that already. I'm not sure why you find my comments inanely conspiratorial when I've laid down reasonable grounds for hypothesis falsification. Find me a cheaper, equally effective drug to morphine in widespread use and my argument is invalidated. Except that every painkiller I know that works, is a derivative of the poppy. I don't think there is a synthetic alternative that is anywhere close to being as good. But I'm not an expert on painkillers, so supply examples if you know them.
So what's the lessons to be learned here:
1-that fanatical religious institutions with absolute power CAN win the war on drugs. (so vote taliban in the november elections everyone)
2-The military doesn't give a squat about drugs so long as our soldiers aren't on them.
3-nobody cares about poor brownish people. (sad but true)
4-conspiracy theories are generally BS because conspiracies require people to keep secrets, and most people can't keep their mouths shut
Bob
I'd like to pick you up on No.4 there, because I don't really disagree with the others, and also because it slightly irks me.
There have been plenty of conspiracies in real life that did enormous harm to humanity, but almost none of them I can think of were 'secret' per se.
e.g. The concentration camps. Secret? To a majority of the civil population perhaps. But hundreds of thousands of people outside of them doubtless understood what was going on. There is such a thing as an 'open secret', which is just information that belongs to a niche group. The American government for example, knew about the concentration camps long before the European Invasion was on the cards. They may not have known how bad it was getting, but lots of people knew about them.
In just the same way we all know about Guantanamo Bay for example. It is a concentration camp and it is not an especially secret one. It is also not news to folk that America has a large quantity of secret prisons throughout Europe, the Middle East and America. If e.g. the Chinese suddenly took over the world and opened those secret prisons, and found the kind of dreadful conditions and brutality seen in post war Nazi Germany, then what do pine and bob have to say for themselves?
Are we members of the conspiracy because we may know that they exist and didn't do anything about them, that we didn't inquire further to find out what the situation is in these state facilities? Remember how German corporations cooperated to turn the camps into well oiled machines, not merely German ones, but also American ones like IBM. This may have given a false sense of normality to observers, that these were just typical war camps. A difficult life perhaps, but not cruel and murderous.
Similar conspiracies went on in Europe later, with the Stazi spying on just about every single person in East Germany, with the records to prove it. Again, an open conspiracy. Nobody knows here. Some know there, but they spread the message about it in vain because most people don't want to hear it.
In short, your idea that conspiracies require tightly held secrets in order to function is evidently completely wrong. Those conspiracies are rare, and are in fact a good sign in a government because they prove the participants know they need to hold their cards close to their chest in order for their plan to succeed. Most real world conspiracies match my description of them.
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Pine you're a cool guy and everything and I have a lot of time for you but sometimes you come across a bit condescending man. People are allowed to disagree and think differently to you yano. :)
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Pine you're a cool guy and everything and I have a lot of time for you but sometimes you come across a bit condescending man. People are allowed to disagree and think differently to you yano. :)
Of course they are. Perhaps I should be more diplomatic, but I shall never make a good equivocator. I don't think tearing apart somebody's argument qualifies as rude. Calling people names or attacking them personally, yes. It is true that by use of word play you can get far more people to agree with your ideas, but that always seemed a bit* dishonest to me. Surely if an idea is good, it ultimately ought to stand on its own merit. So, straight talking has the downside of appearing unfeeling sometimes, but it also takes away linguistic fluff and fuzzy logic.
* See! I said "a bit dishonest". Diplomacy! Actually I think it's completely dishonest.
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The merit of an idea is solely judged by the individual. Whether they see the merit where you do is a different thing altogether. :)
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Pine you're a cool guy and everything and I have a lot of time for you but sometimes you come across a bit condescending man. People are allowed to disagree and think differently to you yano. :)
Of course they are. Perhaps I should be more diplomatic, but I shall never make a good equivocator. I don't think tearing apart somebody's argument qualifies as rude. Calling people names or attacking them personally, yes. It is true that by use of word play you can get far more people to agree with your ideas, but that always seemed a bit* dishonest to me. Surely if an idea is good, it ultimately ought to stand on its own merit. So, straight talking has the downside of appearing unfeeling sometimes, but it also takes away linguistic fluff and fuzzy logic.
* See! I said "a bit dishonest". Diplomacy! Actually I think it's completely dishonest.
So you're not an ends justify the means person? If people are stupid enough, and believe me they are, why stunt your progress trying to reverse their thoughts by logic when you can do it with emotion? The average American has an IQ of 90. The average chimp is at 65, which is closer to the average American if you're even mildly intelligent (No wonder the upper class look down at them). You wouldn't use logic to enlighten a chimp, would you?
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Fuck me, don't be retards guys.
Dumb people are dumb because not everyone can be smart. You got ya Gods and ya Clods and the clods are your cash cows and workers. Simple. What the fuck are we trying to liberate people for? They don't wana be.
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WOW, I have to say WOW, because I absolutely love the chaos that is happening here. lol
I've read all of the 8 pages and this has been a good past time and I thought that adding my 2 cents to the pile of 100s will do good. :)
I won't be bothered to quote every said sentence, but I'll do my best to address some of the debate that is going on here.
So, Imho, this thread is more about conspiracy theories than it is about the facts that we have. We all love to debate about topics that are bigger than us and what could be a better topic than a worldwide conspiracy theory?? The answer is simple: NOTHING!
But what comes to me as a surprise is that so many people in this "debate" have forgotten the sound of reason and aren't thinking objectively nor rationally. It comes to me as a shock that people tend to forget their wits when it comes to topics that don't even touch them nor hurt them in any way.
I get it that some people here are for the better of all human kind. What comes to mind, is what pine said, and what I'd say to her/him, "Do as I say, don't do as I do." I find it simply contradicting when at one point people are saying that: "Oh I want to help the world and I want to help it prosper!" and it the following sentence: "I've made a lot of money manipulating the system and NOW(after I've made the money) I wish to help it!" It's like USA when they told the developing countries to stop polluting at the rate they're at the moment and to level their polluting levels with USA's(a developed country).
Why are people even talking about the opium or the heroin when this topic is created to show something entirely different?
I guess that's the wonder of a debate(not a well organized one, at least).
~~sitamaja
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Lol if you think I want to help it I don't, I don't want to help anything. I do what's best for me. :)
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My cat's breath smells like cat food.
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bump thread
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/look-on-the-bright-side-theres-a-roaring-heroin-trade-in-afghanistan-and-its-all-thanks-to-us-8601260.html clearnet
At last, amid all the bleak news that comes from Afghanistan, there’s a success story to justify the British and American presence there.
Because one of the main aims of Western intervention in foreign affairs is to establish the sort of small-business, entrepreneurial spirit that can rescue a struggling economy. And according to the United Nations, there’s been another 18 per cent growth in the heroin trade, in just the past year.
It goes to show that, even in the most difficult circumstances, with a popular product and thoughtful marketing, there are always business opportunities for those with a flair for entrepreneurial vision. At the time of the initial invasion in 2001, Tony Blair insisted that one of the reasons for occupying Afghanistan was because “the Taliban are causing the deaths of young British people who buy their drugs on the streets”. But clearly some people misunderstood what Blair meant. They were saying that the Afghan heroin trade wasn’t fulfilling its potential, and with the right management they could treble it.
It will probably turn out Blair is getting £4m a year to sit on an advisory board to help them maximise growth. Spokesmen from companies with names like Kwik-Fix Global will appear on the business section of Sky News, explaining how their quarterly report reveals a 35 per cent rise in dividends, boasting about surveys that show that the Afghan brand earns positive feedback with 95 per cent of junkies, and hinting at diversification into other markets such as its own brand of needles so customers can enjoy the full Afghan warlord poppy experience.
Maybe the plan is that, by the time British troops leave, every district of Afghanistan has a thriving garden centre, where couples from Helmand province can potter around on a Sunday, arguing about which seeds will produce the most effective skag and enquiring about how to set up a poppy rockery.
Then there’ll be an Afghan Gardeners’ Question Time, with the audience asking: “This year, my poppy window-box became susceptible to mildew around springtime, so the opium was disappointingly soggy and hard to burn in the spoon. Has the panel any suggestions for how to prevent a recurrence?”
It could be claimed that the growth in heroin production would be even greater if the occupying forces hadn’t been in the country. But this would be to deny them the credit they’re due. Because it was also revealed this week that the office of Afghan leader Harmid Karzai has been regularly receiving envelopes stuffed with cash from the CIA, for the past 11 years. The New York Times reported that the money has come in “backpacks, suitcases and plastic bags”.
The allegations are denied by a Foreign Ministry spokesman, but Karzai explained the purpose of these payments was to “secure the support of those leaders who have been loyal”. One of the other reasons for the invasion, you may recall, was to stamp out corruption. That makes sense, because you can’t stamp out corruption without the support of honest, reliable officials, and you can’t expect them to stay honest and reliable for nothing so it makes sense to hand them envelopes stuffed with cash every couple of weeks.
The people the money has been handed to are local warlords, who won’t stay loyal unless they’re also allowed to carry on their legitimate business of growing poppies, so it all completes a neat business circle. To make it seem even more like a typical business arrangement, some of them have complained that the amount that the local farmers receive for their poppies is only 1 per cent of the eventual market value. You’d think that at least our Government would insist on an ethical poppy policy, encouraging dealers to pay a decent price so they could stand behind the bins on a council estate wearing a sticker saying “All our smack is Fairtrade”, next to a picture of a smiling warlord.
Once you add in the other reasons for occupying the place, the scale of the occupation’s success becomes even clearer. There was the Taliban’s “appalling record on human rights”, whereas Saudi Arabia, with which we’ve just concluded a £15bn arms deal, is just a constant hubbub of feminist this and lesbian that.
It is so liberal that it’s the only country where women get no extra penalty if they’re caught drinking and driving, as they get put in jail for either so they might as well do both at the same time. And the invasion was supposed to stop Afghanistan being a centre for al-Qa’ida, which has gone exceedingly well. Because now Afghanistan is only one place for the militant Islamist organisation, as they’ve grown in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Mali, and a variety of places where they didn’t exist before. Once they’ve taken control of Dorset County Council, I suppose the job will be complete.
When British and US forces first occupied Kabul in 2001, there was jubilation from those who’d supported the invasion, especially those who saw it as a humanitarian policy. Some day soon, I suppose they’ll accept it hasn’t all gone to plan as much as they thought. Or they might stick it out, following the Government’s line that we’re leaving because we’ve done an excellent job, and now the Afghans we’ve been giving stuffed envelopes to have learned enough from us that they can carry on from here.
If only Napoleon had thought of this tactic. He could have said: “Right, it’s all gone very well, but, if you Russians don’t mind, we’ve got other stuff to get on with, so you’re jolly well going to have to get on without us. Bye then, thanks for having us.
QFT
Exactly the sort of contempt our western leaders deserve for this epic clusterfuck. As Machiavelli would appreciate, there is something worse than being unpopular for a nation state, and that is being seen as being utterly incompetent. If our modern day Praetorian guard actually had any balls they would have executed the upper echelon of the previous administrations for treason. In fact that can still happen.
It comes down to this: what is the practical difference between fucking up on purpose and fucking up through inability to function? There isn't one. The result is the same. Libertarians, despite not usually having a country specific nationalism in common with the military, think in similar ways, we both think that discipline is necessary for freedom e.g. the freedom to take heroin does not imply you should take it. Pleasure is not the highest goal in life by a long shot.
The socialists are always afraid of a military dictatorship, with reasonable cause too. It can turn into a bloodbath. But they often overlook the fact that the central reason why practically every military dictatorship comes into existence is because the central administration is seen as weak, ineffectual, treasonous by default through ineptitude. It is very easy to argue that there have been times in history where a military dictatorship was preferable to the alternative. Democracy supporters find such a topic abhorrent, but military dictatorships have become democracies before now. The history of the world is not an easy reading for an unsophisticated democrat.
Putting it as bluntly as possible: if the democracy camp does not manage to get its shit together in the USA and UK, the far right wing is going to do it for them. This is a hypothesis with great explanatory power for the changes in politics over the last few years.
To reiterate, Pine is not a nationalist and stands by the non-aggression principal as the line in the sand, but this is just how it is on the world stage, the world does not share my philosophy. This is the logic the West is trending towards more and more. Guantanamo Bay and other secret prisons the previous democracy based administrations have built are an absolute abomination on the face of the West. It goes against all our cultural values, including that of our armed forces. Either the enemy dies honorably on the field of battle when he doesn't surrender, or he is captured and given a strict but fair military trial. Again, I will be blunt. The ONLY reason we have that concentration camp is democracy. All data supports that claim.
Our armed forces from the ground floor to the highest echelons of strategic cognition are in an awful catch-22. They have accomplished their jobs with great skill, their institutions have by and large done precisely what they are supposed to. To anybody who takes umbridge at this: the object of the armed forces and their strategic masters can only be either defense or invasion. Keeping the peace, making the economy prosper and all those infinite other necessaries is simply way out of their jurisdiction. To make them responsible for these others is tantamount to encouraging them to think about politics, which isn't their job, but which they are almost certainly going to now think it is. I mean Jesus Christ, just join the dots, the consequences of putting a military force in charge of governance overseas should not be rocket science. You think those patterns wouldn't reestablish themselves when they are back on home territory? Of course they will, it's just a matter of time. Bush and Blair have laid down the seeds for the potential future destruction of their countries.
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So are you saying you were not aware that the CIA is one of the biggest drug smuggling operations?
Next thing you know you will say that you are not aware that the CIA put Osama Bin Laden, Castro, and Saddam Husein in charge of their respective countries. Not to count that they are responsible for the current state of the Iranian government.
Um... why do think there's never any biological weapons in our keys? Because it's an American-run operation for an American market...