Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: pine on August 02, 2012, 01:57 am
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Reposted from Lim's thread, perhaps I'm becoming guilty of hubris because it appeals partly to my self interest, but I think this is a good idea and want a broader selection of people to analyze and critique it.
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If markets like SR are to be regulated in any semi-legal/decriminalized government approved fashion in the distant future, it is imperative that some mechanism, much like Capcha for distinguishing between person/machine, is developed as a age restriction.
My own view is, if we're setting somewhat arbitrary limits, that it is 15+ for MDMA and weed, 18+ for opiates. The problem then becomes the same one that buggers our governments, which is that you're making an allure for hard drugs by designating them as "18+", suddenly h is cool and MDMA is drool. Not exactly the intention. But its results that count, not intentions. The government also sometimes uses price controls with alcohol in the UK for example such that usually only adults can purchase items. This is also severely retarded, you penalize everybody for the sake of a minority. I think it's more effective if enforced properly, but still completely retarded from a moral point of view.
However, there is a definitive difference between a human and a computer, not so much between an older human and a younger one. Therein lies the crux of the problem practically.
I also do not believe it's all about 'age'. Some people can be in their 30s or 40s or older, and still act immature. This has been frequently noted...
==>> What we really want, is a way then, to distinguish responsible SR users from non-responsible ones in a rigorous manner.
We can stipulate a "limit" system, but what will naturally occur is that it will be a failure because it doesn't address the problem. Essentially, when you get right down to it, everybody wants a distinction between "mature" and "moron", because if preventing somebody using a drug in the wrong way or taking too much of it is the goal here, then the Mature/Moron criteria is clearly the one you want to be using. It is simply a better approximation to reality than using age restrictions, which are altogether too crude.
We don't need to emulate the government, because they kind of cocked it up already. We can do it better than they can.
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I have a solution, which is that you give me money. :D
Only joking slightly, but I think this would be highly effective. Let me explain.
When a vendor discovers some half illiterate punk (punk <3) trying to nab some product, he becomes suspicious about the maturity of the said punk, as we can see from Lim's consternation.
What happens, is that you say to this punk. "You can buy from me". "No problem. I can't prevent you, this is an anonymous network, you could always register with a new alt."
However!
"First you must acquire this package from pine". says the wise and noble vendor. "What package" says the punk?
"Well it is simple, I sell MDMA, so you must acquire an MDMA support package from pine (and her competition) for *your first buy*" says the vendor.
This MDMA support package is a standard package signed off on by DPR. It contains two simple things.
1. A vial of MDMA testing reagent to ensure it is actually MDMA you're ingesting.
2. A informative letter explaining the correct dosage for males/female per kg in a simple and easily understood manner. Also included would be the half-life and directions on "best practices".
3. An identity number that Pine reports back to the vendor so they know they can stop putting the newb's order on hold.
Meanwhile, while they're waiting for product, they will be excited about their first SR buy, and will almost certainly read the letter and example the instructions for the vial as a result. They have nothing to lose, and neither do we, apart from a small quantity of money.
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What do you think?
It is entirely voluntary. No vendor is forced to do this. You simply join "Pine's Responsible Drug Consumption League" and take an oath where you (with complete discretion) decide whether or not to send a package outright, or whether to demand that the consumer acquire a "care package" from pine firstly. Perhaps on a first buy for opiates this ought to be mandatory.
THAT, I think, is what we want the newspapers to report on us. We find the irresponsible newbs (handily capturing both the morons in the adult market as well as a majority of immature kids).
Alternatively, the payment stategy would be that the care packages are FREE, but that DPR buys them on these newb's behalf from myself.
I think this is a good idea. Not only because I make money, but also from an ethical/moral/commercial point of view.
There is only one serious problem I can think of really. That is that I would be receiving the addresses of many SR newbs, so you would have to trust me doubly in comparison to a normal vendor. But... with competition that would arise naturally, a selection of trusted or random people could be preselected by DPR and that problem is solved.
<insert your thoughts into my thought experiment here>
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How does that prove anybody is mature? It just proves they are willing to buy a "permission slip" before they buy the real product. If an illiterate punk has an extra 10 bucks and a week of patience to spend on the process of acquiring mdma, he is suddenly mature?
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How does that prove anybody is mature? It just proves they are willing to buy a "permission slip" before they buy the real product. If an illiterate punk has an extra 10 bucks and a week of patience to spend on the process of acquiring mdma, he is suddenly mature?
I somewhat agree with this, technically your idea wouldn't disqualify anyone from buying drugs, it would just force them to buy something else first.
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o pine such a big thinker. very nice for you to be concerned for the rest of the community, wish more people cared as much about others safety. anyway my thoughts on the subject: good idea but i dont really see people being cool with an extra person having their address especially new guys as the first purchase is nerve racking enough, and i also think some of the new guys would be put-off by having to wait for approval, doing your idea on a voluntarily basis maybe could work that would be a way i guess of telling who more safety aware. alot of vendors would probably not like the extra wait for their order to finalize. but all good thoughts on your end very pro-active maybe theyre could be a better way to go about it im sure with enough peoples input something decent and respectible could be forged.
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How does that prove anybody is mature? It just proves they are willing to buy a "permission slip" before they buy the real product. If an illiterate punk has an extra 10 bucks and a week of patience to spend on the process of acquiring mdma, he is suddenly mature?
It proves several things.
1. The punk was not so impulsive he or she couldn't wait a week. Impulsively is directly connected to intelligence. Examine whitepapers on something called the Marshmallow Test to understand why.
2. More importantly, because punk could have read the exact same material online and acquired the testing vial separately with the same outcome, but this is useless to SR because *we cannot know this is the case*.
If they received the care package and didn't read it. That's now the ball firmly in their court and nobody with a modicum of intellect is going to disagree with that. Some will, but the majority of parents will relent into a grey area where they may disapprove of SR, but they know it is way, way, way safer than acquiring product on the streets. This is important.
If people want a perfect world where nobody takes drugs < 18. Good luck with that. Those people are clearly mad.
This idea is completely opt-in, and gives SR street cred politically with anybody who thinks about the alternative for 10 microseconds.
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How does that prove anybody is mature? It just proves they are willing to buy a "permission slip" before they buy the real product. If an illiterate punk has an extra 10 bucks and a week of patience to spend on the process of acquiring mdma, he is suddenly mature?
I somewhat agree with this, technically your idea wouldn't disqualify anyone from buying drugs, it would just force them to buy something else first.
Actually it doesn't even do that. Because any kid could continually reregister on SR with new alts until they got to a vendor willing to overlook their immaturity.
This is voluntary from the point of view of the drug consumer and the drug vendor. It cannot work any other way.
Think of it as a psychological speed bump, not a road block.
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How does that prove anybody is mature? It just proves they are willing to buy a "permission slip" before they buy the real product. If an illiterate punk has an extra 10 bucks and a week of patience to spend on the process of acquiring mdma, he is suddenly mature?
I somewhat agree with this, technically your idea wouldn't disqualify anyone from buying drugs, it would just force them to buy something else first.
Exactly. Paying someone to be middle man? Uhh no thank you. ;D
And aside from that, What makes your judgements seem so correct? If you ask me any fifteen year old who can access SR through Tor on their own should have a bit of competence to not get caught. I'm not condoning this action, but I'm not against it either. In my opinion though I a kid buying ecstasy here would avoid allot of the problems that come with scoring on the streets (purity, hassle, danger, etc...). ;D
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o pine such a big thinker. very nice for you to be concerned for the rest of the community, wish more people cared as much about others safety. anyway my thoughts on the subject: good idea but i dont really see people being cool with an extra person having their address especially new guys as the first purchase is nerve racking enough, and i also think some of the new guys would be put-off by having to wait for approval, doing your idea on a voluntarily basis maybe could work that would be a way i guess of telling who more safety aware. alot of vendors would probably not like the extra wait for their order to finalize. but all good thoughts on your end very pro-active maybe theyre could be a better way to go about it im sure with enough peoples input something decent and respectible could be forged.
Yes, but that issue is solved if pine has enough competition, because you're not relying on 1 supplier of care packages.
Really, what is the difference between a SR buyer going to 2 different vendors, and this proposal?
It's the pretty much the exact same thing in terms of address security, it's not inherently insecure as it sounds at first if you think about it. I mean, a LE agent can simply make a series of fake accounts and collect address information of first time buyers that way too.
Finally, the price point is something like $5. Not high. Super fast delivery & a tiny package.
SR requires that new vendors stump up $150 for vending to deter scammers.
I propose a rather similar concept, but a much smaller speed bump and for buyers. I mean, seriously if I were LE I'd be trying to obtain the addresses of vendors by offering them things like precursor, think about it.
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Right we go and see the customer if we suspect them being under 18 and hook them up to a car battery and put their hand splayed on a table and also a polygraph. If it buzzes for evil lies when you ask if they are 18 or not they get zapped and you break their finger with a hammer.
We just need plane tickets, a hammer, a car battery and some wires and a suitcase that can fit all three but would be small enough to get a weight reduction on the baggage costs....
Doable? Yes. Practical? Definitely......
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How does that prove anybody is mature? It just proves they are willing to buy a "permission slip" before they buy the real product. If an illiterate punk has an extra 10 bucks and a week of patience to spend on the process of acquiring mdma, he is suddenly mature?
I somewhat agree with this, technically your idea wouldn't disqualify anyone from buying drugs, it would just force them to buy something else first.
Exactly. Paying someone to be middle man? Uhh no thank you. ;D
And aside from that, What makes your judgements seem so correct? If you ask me any fifteen year old who can access SR through Tor on their own should have a bit of competence to not get caught. I'm not condoning this action, but I'm not against it either. In my opinion though I a kid buying ecstasy here would avoid allot of the problems that come with scoring on the streets (purity, hassle, danger, etc...). ;D
Nobody apart from the vendor is actually making a judgement call. Read through my posts slower!
If a new buyer of drugs can't afford $5.00... Come on people! Seriously?
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Right we go and see the customer if we suspect them being under 18 and hook them up to a car battery and put their hand splayed on a table and also a polygraph. If it buzzes for evil lies when you ask if they are 18 or not they get zapped and you break their finger with a hammer.
We just need plane tickets, a hammer, a car battery and some wires and a suitcase that can fit all three but would be small enough to get a weight reduction on the baggage costs....
Doable? Yes. Practical? Definitely......
I just bought the plane tickets mother fucker.
edit: Oh, and pine, if anything it would be much more efficient to force vendors themselves to send care packages with their products and just cut out the extra shipping costs of a middle man, but you're just too sexy to argue with unfortunately.
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Right we go and see the customer if we suspect them being under 18 and hook them up to a car battery and put their hand splayed on a table and also a polygraph. If it buzzes for evil lies when you ask if they are 18 or not they get zapped and you break their finger with a hammer.
We just need plane tickets, a hammer, a car battery and some wires and a suitcase that can fit all three but would be small enough to get a weight reduction on the baggage costs....
Doable? Yes. Practical? Definitely......
Just don't forget a mask or a spoon to gouge their eye's out. Don't want any facial recognition now do we? ;D
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I can't see how this does anything... Aside from create our own bureaucracy. I'm of the opinion that if they can access SR, get BTC, get a package delivered that no one opens, then they are good to go. Perhaps throw in a PGP requirement is all I would ask, but that's it. We don't want to be like the establishment we're trying to subvert... do we?
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Right we go and see the customer if we suspect them being under 18 and hook them up to a car battery and put their hand splayed on a table and also a polygraph. If it buzzes for evil lies when you ask if they are 18 or not they get zapped and you break their finger with a hammer.
We just need plane tickets, a hammer, a car battery and some wires and a suitcase that can fit all three but would be small enough to get a weight reduction on the baggage costs....
Doable? Yes. Practical? Definitely......
Just don't forget a mask or a spoon to gouge their eye's out. Don't want any facial recognition now do we? ;D
I was just gunna wear a scarf or something but if you wana get all Hostel about it then fuck it bring a blowtorch too then I spoze.
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Pine, you think too much - this is a solution to a problem that I"m not at all concerned with. And I"m sure very few vendors would be either.
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Thanks Lim, Shannon, I knew I could count on you guys ::)
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What about everyone has to submit a picture of their genitalia with a timestamp on it to confirm their age
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Right we go and see the customer if we suspect them being under 18 and hook them up to a car battery and put their hand splayed on a table and also a polygraph. If it buzzes for evil lies when you ask if they are 18 or not they get zapped and you break their finger with a hammer.
We just need plane tickets, a hammer, a car battery and some wires and a suitcase that can fit all three but would be small enough to get a weight reduction on the baggage costs....
Doable? Yes. Practical? Definitely......
Just don't forget a mask or a spoon to gouge their eye's out. Don't want any facial recognition now do we? ;D
I was just gunna wear a scarf or something but if you wana get all Hostel about it then fuck it bring a blowtorch too then I spoze.
Good idea we can weld their mouths shut so the fuckers won't even be able to speak! ;D
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While I'm all for harm reduction (hence my work here, for which I profit less than probably any other established vendor on the 'road), I just can't see many vendors going through the process of directing the user towards your item, and then confirming the identification number a week later, for what is probably a small order anyway. Furthermore, nothing's stopping the user from buying the same item from another vendor, which nearly all of them would do, so the net effect would be to funnel the ostensibly 'immature users' towards those vendors who would sell to them anyway.
That said, I still think you should sell those harm reduction packages, it'd be a great service to newbies who do care enough to buy one themselves.
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Thanks Lim, Shannon, I knew I could count on you guys ::)
If you crossed the two ideas you end up with damaged kids for sale, this is what Standard and Poor would call a AAA rated bond lol.
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I can't see how this does anything... Aside from create our own bureaucracy. I'm of the opinion that if they can access SR, get BTC, get a package delivered that no one opens, then they are good to go. Perhaps throw in a PGP requirement is all I would ask, but that's it. We don't want to be like the establishment we're trying to subvert... do we?
When has any government in history supplied the correct drug testing kits and drug consumption information @ the point of sale?
I'll be waiting... because although they have clinics and even some might supply free testing kits, they cannot do so at the point of sale, which is precisely where it really matters to the consumer, less cognitive load/effort for the most gain.
As for what this does, this is not all about making drugs safe to consume.
It is also damage control for SR's reputation among the chattering classes. That is seriously important if SR wants to make this fly for more than a couple of years.
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What about everyone has to submit a picture of their genitalia with a timestamp on it to confirm their age
Right eighteen rings around the vulva for women. And someone else can look at the male genitalia. Now remember ladies no forgeries! ;D
And the same goes for you "other females" too! You know who you are. ;D
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Pine, I'm not talking about governments per se - or about harm reduction.. Just about needless red tape....
Without ID verification, this is all a pipe dream - and since that is out of the question = pipe dream
You may be able to get a few vendors on board - but I know if I was a vendor, I'd just use my own judgement on allowing orders, and not force them to jump through this needless hoop...
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I'm going to jump out now... Somehow I feel like I was trolled...
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What exactly makes everyone think the Gov legalizing or providing test kits or anything like that would be such a benevolent action? Because it sure-as-shit wouldn't.
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I can't see how this does anything... Aside from create our own bureaucracy. I'm of the opinion that if they can access SR, get BTC, get a package delivered that no one opens, then they are good to go. Perhaps throw in a PGP requirement is all I would ask, but that's it. We don't want to be like the establishment we're trying to subvert... do we?
When has any government in history supplied the correct drug testing kits and drug consumption information @ the point of sale?
I'll be waiting... because although they have clinics and even some might supply free testing kits, they cannot do so at the point of sale, which is precisely where it really matters to the consumer, less cognitive load/effort for the most gain.
As for what this does, this is not all about making drugs safe to consume.
It is also damage control for SR's reputation among the chattering classes. That is seriously important if SR wants to make this fly for more than a couple of years.
Haha, ok, I hardly think any of that will change the opinions of any of the so called chattering masses, "OMG HEROIN CAN BE SOLD TO KIDS? but wait.. they tell them how to use it correctly, that's ok I guess." Anyway, don't want to sound mean or anything, I'm glad you posted your idea, I just don't think that it would be beneficial, sorry.
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Pine, I'm not talking about governments per se - or about harm reduction.. Just about needless red tape....
Without ID verification, this is all a pipe dream - and since that is out of the question = pipe dream
You may be able to get a few vendors on board - but I know if I was a vendor, I'd just use my own judgement on allowing orders, and not force them to jump through this needless hoop...
I think supplying educational information (fun activity of using the testing kit + reading the letter) is something, not nothing.
This is about harm reduction, not a perfection, an absolute rule for all to follow. People who've tried banning alcohol of the bias of age, or price point, have clearly completely failed.
I think active education, not in school books, but in the marketplace, is a good stab at a solution. I am sure that 90% of the people who receive the care package will use it correctly and take a lesson from it. The rest, well, it's too bad that some people can't think for themselves, but they'd get the drugs anyway, at least this way we're on the moral high ground here. The ball is in the government/consumer's court if you had a setup like this. They would be forced to respond to this, and thus to recognize a distinction between SR and the street.
That opens up the door to meaningful political dialogue and possibly decriminalization for the Silk Road. Ok, that is being very optimistic, but why not?
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What exactly makes everyone think the Gov legalizing or providing test kits or anything like that would be such a benevolent action? Because it sure-as-shit wouldn't.
I'm not arguing for the legalization of drugs. In fact I made a entire thread on that subject which you can view here:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=14722.msg144103#msg144103
I think the key place to provide harm reduction services, is at the point of sale. That's why most government campaigns with harm reduction are utterly ineffective. Some things work, but mostly it just fails because the association between drug and relevant drug infomation isn't there with correct timing. It's classic problem that afflicts many industries, which is why they advertise in specific spots to create associations between them and something else. e.g. energy drinks and sports activities.
It's logical!
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What exactly makes everyone think the Gov legalizing or providing test kits or anything like that would be such a benevolent action? Because it sure-as-shit wouldn't.
I'm not arguing for the legalization of drugs. In fact I made a entire thread on that subject which you can view here:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=14722.msg144103#msg144103
I think the key place to provide harm reduction services, is at the point of sale. That's why most government campaigns with harm reduction are utterly ineffective. Some things work, but mostly it just fails because the association between drug and relevant drug infomation isn't there with correct timing. It's classic problem that afflicts many industries, which is why they advertise in specific spots to create associations between them and something else. e.g. energy drinks and sports activities.
It's logical!
Ah ok I jumped the gun a bit there then. Yeah I agree with certain levels of harm reduction although I prefer state-funded but ran by NGOs.
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While I'm all for harm reduction (hence my work here, for which I profit less than probably any other established vendor on the 'road), I just can't see many vendors going through the process of directing the user towards your item, and then confirming the identification number a week later, for what is probably a small order anyway. Furthermore, nothing's stopping the user from buying the same item from another vendor, which nearly all of them would do, so the net effect would be to funnel the ostensibly 'immature users' towards those vendors who would sell to them anyway.
That said, I still think you should sell those harm reduction packages, it'd be a great service to newbies who do care enough to buy one themselves.
Thanks Tryptamine. That's something I intend to do soon anyway.
As for the users, perhaps we aren't giving them enough credit, maybe we've got to have a little faith here?
It's important, I think, from PGP Club's experience, to create positive peer pressure to do the right thing even if it's a pain in the ass to do the first time around.
My point is that it's the moral/market equivalent of a lump sum investment for harm reduction. It is hardly a tax and miles of red tape like has been suggested! I mean seriously, it's not as if pine could get to be a millionaire this way.
But... It would generate enormous social capital for the Silk Road. And THAT alone (sorry for the caps, need more emphasis than usual), would be more than worth it.
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Haha, ok, I hardly think any of that will change the opinions of any of the so called chattering masses, "OMG HEROIN CAN BE SOLD TO KIDS? but wait.. they tell them how to use it correctly, that's ok I guess." Anyway, don't want to sound mean or anything, I'm glad you posted your idea, I just don't think that it would be beneficial, sorry.
I actually agree with you. That is the first reaction. At first...
I just think that once "the scare" is over, and the collective's sense of outrage has run it's course, then they will reflect a little on the implications of such concepts. It happens whenever the media raise up somebody to fame. They make them appear to be strong and beautiful, and then they drag them down into the gutter with various attacks.
The opposite is also true. The tide turns, and the media alternates its position, that is the logic of the mainstream media.
It doesn't force anybody to change their minds about what they think about drugs! Not one little bit. That's the beauty of this potential project. Conservatives will agree it's a better alternative due to the opportunity cost of the alternative. Today they're all about 'alternatives' because everybody knows the drug war has been, in modern teen parlance, an Epic Fail.
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OK look, the title is how to solve the kid problem and it does absolutely nothing to stop any kids from buying drugs, since the origin of your idea you had which was, according to the title, to stop kids from buying drugs, you've completely gone out of control and you've stated widely varying justifications.
Originally it was to stop kids from buying drugs, then just unworthy people in general, now your idea doesn't stop ANYONE from buying drugs, now it's a harm reduction policy, oh wait what you're really doing is changing the general public's opinion of silk road. Clearly you didn't spend a lot of time weighing the pros and cons of your idea.
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Ah ok I jumped the gun a bit there then. Yeah I agree with certain levels of harm reduction although I prefer state-funded but ran by NGOs.
> state funded
What happened to individual responsibility and non-reliance on the state? You're saying you prefer somebody else to pay for another person's ignorance here. That can't be right. I mean, if that were the case then the UK would be broke... oh wait...
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I think we need to encourage kids to take more drugs! Hear hear!
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OK look, the title is how to solve the kid problem and it does absolutely nothing to stop any kids from buying drugs, since the origin of your idea you had which was, according to the title, to stop kids from buying drugs, you've completely gone out of control and you've stated widely varying justifications.
Originally it was to stop kids from buying drugs, then just unworthy people in general, now your idea doesn't stop ANYONE from buying drugs, now it's a harm reduction policy, oh wait what you're really doing is changing the general public's opinion of silk road. Clearly you didn't spend a lot of time weighing the pros and cons of your idea.
Eh? I'm not even trying to ensure a certain age category doesn't receive product. I'm trying to prevent idiots from ODing. That's what all my entire first post was about. So by definition "The Kid Problem" doesn't refer to literal children, but to harm reduction instead. I'm not even sure why you thought I had a single objective here.
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OK look, the title is how to solve the kid problem and it does absolutely nothing to stop any kids from buying drugs, since the origin of your idea you had which was, according to the title, to stop kids from buying drugs, you've completely gone out of control and you've stated widely varying justifications.
Originally it was to stop kids from buying drugs, then just unworthy people in general, now your idea doesn't stop ANYONE from buying drugs, now it's a harm reduction policy, oh wait what you're really doing is changing the general public's opinion of silk road. Clearly you didn't spend a lot of time weighing the pros and cons of your idea.
Eh? I'm not even trying to ensure a certain age category doesn't receive product. I'm trying to prevent idiots from ODing. That's what all my entire first post was about. So by definition "The Kid Problem" doesn't refer to literal children, but to harm reduction instead. I'm not even sure why you thought I had a single objective here.
Then having vendors send any buyer a single internet link showing dosage and telling them to start low would have the exact same effect that you're having unless they're shipping fake product.
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Then having vendors send any buyer a single internet link showing dosage and telling them to start low would have the exact same effect that you're having unless they're shipping fake product.
Yes, but this plan works much better because you can't download a drug kit and because not even some vendors know the correct dosages/procedures because they haven't all read the most recent scientific whitepapers on that subject. Some vendors are pros because they have access to labs.
Basically this has at least two things going for it that an individual vendor can't offer by themselves.
1. Standardization of information.
2. Human Psychology. People take letters to them more seriously than a link to a website.
Not to mention less hassle fiddling with this stuff when they could be packing product, so there is that division of labor and opportunity cost to be recouped as a result.
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Ok, I semi give-up. Nobody seems to think it's a good idea, although I still think it has something much more than it appears to have at first glance, so it's never going to lift-off anyway. -.-
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Well that's good, I was sick of arguing :(, after all, according to the posts I've read from you in the past you're still the smartest coolest girl on the planet.
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Ok, I semi give-up. Nobody seems to think it's a good idea, although I still think it has something much more than it appears to have at first glance, so it's never going to lift-off anyway. -.-
Poor Pine thinking too much again :-*
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Ok, I semi give-up. Nobody seems to think it's a good idea, although I still think it has something much more than it appears to have at first glance, so it's never going to lift-off anyway. -.-
I don`t think its a bad idea, but it needs some revision. I really doubt anyone or DPR will shell out the expenses to cover the cost of this kit though. I know some people who supply these tests, and I`ll see if we can arrange something. I think there is potential for this project to lift off, but don`t think it will become a part of SR on the whole. If you want feel free to PM me or arrange a CCC. Don`t give up on it.
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YUP
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Poor Pine talking too much again :-*
There fixed it for ya.
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Meh, similar has crossed my mind, keep thinking about it for longer and you'll understand //in a pissy mood
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I agree with all of your analysis but also think the idea does not have much merit.
While it might be doable you have to look at the costs versus the benefits
the costs have been talked about (slower orders, extra hassle, more costs, giving your address to two people)
so what are the benefits? a prospective drug buyer get's HR information and a reagent test
This benefit is not worth any sacrifice to be honest:
Harm reduction leaflets can be found everywhere online and offline and they are of questionable use anyway: often copied&pasted together by social workers from internet sources, sometimes containing factually wrong information (no, crystal meth is NOT methamphetamine freebase for the 10000th time).
Making Marquis reagent widely available would be great but it has limited reliability and allows no quantitative analysis anyway, therefore not helpful in preventing ODs.
Anyway, harm reduction is something you cannot force on people they have to pursue it out of their own volition. And I think that works better than you assume.
The funny thing is that most of the illegal drugs peddled here have a better safety profile than many OTC pharmaceuticals but still they have such a horrible reputation that most kids will be scared when trying them the first time. There was a girl in Britain that took MDMA and because she was scared shitless of the "MDMA dehydrates you horribly"-myth she drank so much water she died of fucking WATER POISONING (see (2)). You could also say it was a harm reduction overdose death.
Even the evil, highly toxic killer drug from hell, heroin is very hard to die from alone. According to experimental data (poor monkeys), It would take 500 milligrams pure H or more in a single IV injection to kill an unaddicted human adult." (see (1)). H users die of an "overdose" because they combine it with alcohol and benzos to get a better buzz.
And if someone orders heroin here, cooks it up with moldy lemon juice and then injects it in a vein on his forehead with a syringe he found in the trash bin... yes he might have serious health complications. But a person that retarded is probably unable to use TOR and PGP, let alone read and comprehend any HR leaflet you send them.
So, Pine, just keep on convincing everyone to use PGP and you might solve two problems at once :)
and because I am feeling scientific today here are the references:
(1) Lawrence Kolb and A. G. Du Mez, U.S. Public Health Reports, 46 (1931): 698.
(2) http://thedea.org/hyponatremia.html
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Or how about this for a punk filter:
Rule #8 of Silk Road: If it's your first time at Silk Road, you HAVE to sell.
Honestly though, I don't think the "Kid Problem" CAN be solved on the supply side. I am not one of those free market fanatics, but one thing that life and history has tough me is that it is pointless to fight the market. The market is always stronger than some well-meaning attempt by do-gooders to "correct" it. Those attempts more often than not have unintended consequences.
If kids want drugs, they are going to get drugs. Where I live, the government has come up with all sorts of draconian measures to restrict the sale of cigarettes to under-16s, yet the demographic with the biggest percentage of smokers are 14-16 year old females. All they need to do is to ask their over 16 boyfriend/sibling/friend to buy a pack for them and all the sales restrictions are nullified.
Even people working in legal industries do not worry where eventually their arms/oil/pharmaceuticals/vehicles are going to end up. So why should SR sellers?
Consequentialist ethics is a dangerous thing when applied to markets. Go far enough downstream, and EVERYTHING you sell has nasty consequences, even products that appear harmless.
PS. Pine, you've managed to craft quite the text-mining proof web persona there! Not only do you claim to be a woman, you even taught yourself to write like a woman. In case you actually ARE a woman then I take that back and apologize for any offense caused.
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Ah ok I jumped the gun a bit there then. Yeah I agree with certain levels of harm reduction although I prefer state-funded but ran by NGOs.
> state funded
What happened to individual responsibility and non-reliance on the state? You're saying you prefer somebody else to pay for another person's ignorance here. That can't be right. I mean, if that were the case then the UK would be broke... oh wait...
Yeah because I don't wana pay for junkies lol. I'm not a charity. :P
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Pine,
You are quite an intelligent thinker, I must say.. Reading your post got me thinking myself. Although I am strictly a MMJ Vender ONLY with a strong belief in "Keeping it Green", I don't think differently of people who are into other drugs, I am very much for providing them with safer access to what they most likely would be getting off the streets anyway.
With the huge amount of newcomers now registering due to the recent media coverage it does seem reasonable to want to limit irresponsible individuals from obtaining substances which they could harm themselves or others with if they do not use said products appropriately.
Just a few things I thought of, when I read your post:
1) The issue of all new buyers having to submit their addresses to other individuals. If you aren't the only vender offering this service, and one new vender somehow begins offering this 'verification service', and is somehow not genuine- (I am not at all saying not to trust you, if you were to offer this service)- I would say buyers should be concerned if anyone else started offering it, for all we know, they could be LE, just collecting addresses of individuals who want to buy hard drugs off SR, while in fact still sending the kits, and that could pose a security threat. Obviously, it would put you at an extremely great risk too.
2) Honestly, 'kids', if they really are kids, are mostly all (id say 95%) extremely impatient- they don't want to spend the time to even figure out how to encrypt their own address-if they were even patient enough to figure out how to first get their cash into BTC, install and use tor.. take all the steps, then be waiting for a package to arrive just to have what they really want sent- which brings me to my third concern-
3) If the "kid" decided to use a bogus, or other known address they knew the kit would successfully be delivered to, claim they got it, then have what the really want sent to them right away.. there is no way to ensure its really them receiving, opening, and using it. The seller and "verification vender" would need to cross verify addresses, which again, would result in a customers address being exposed to additional security concerns..
It is a very thoughtful and responsible idea though, with the huge amount of new customers potentially being irresponsible it would seem like a smart thing to offer, but then again, *this is a free market*...
I think, if we want to be a free market, sorry to be blunt, we cant "mess with Darwin"- but it would be great if we could at least educate those who want to obtain hard drugs.. maybe we could have a link to a page/ or a page ON SR itself, easily accessible, all about different drugs, their effects, safe dosage, harm reduction in general.
I agree with Pachang, Harm reduction info leaflets/ webpages can be found everywhere... if admins maybe consider just placing some basic info on SR itself or linked to SR I believe it would make the marketplace come across as a more serious, responsible "adult" thing, which it really is, with potential consequences and risks. IMO, for a while still at least, Every time we are on the news, we unfortunately will be referred to as "a marketplace kids can buy crack"
If we put up the potential consequences right out there, in the open, there is no excuse, its still a free market, yes, idiots can still buy off here, that's still true, however you cant say we didn't take the time to warn them..
A lot of random thoughts, yes, but exchanging ideas is the only way we can strengthen this community for the long term.
Have a nice weekend everyone,
Peace,
-Rx420
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Kids in my area are more capable of purchasing drugs in real life than on the internet. I think getting bitcoins is the retard test. If you can get them to your account that you have passed.
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Looks like Pine is harvesting addys of people that will be purchasing MDMA in the coming week. :o
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I would think the security implications alone would be enough to discourage the idea in its present form. Having just one person would be bad enough, but having competition would be even worse from a security and logistical standpoint. It would create an entire separate layer of security that you would have to worry about. You would have to check up on the vendor you actually want to buy from, and then check up on the "verification" vendor as well to make sure they take your security seriously.
From a logistical standpoint, it would create delays that most vendors and users would be unwilling to wait for. Aside from that, if their "verification vendor" of choice was held up for whatever reason, then it would hold up that vendor's orders, potentially resulting in bad feedback.
Finally, it could easily create a subclass of vendors catering to the following: "Don't want to be babysat? Order from me, and don't wait be given permission to do what you want!". I suspect these vendors would be _especially_ prone to scamming, since they'd be preying exclusively on new users that may not be able to tell a scam when they see it, and would likely be expected to finalize early. A combination of a cheap product + less wait time would be _exactly_ what irresponsible, unsafe drug users would be looking for. If they're not outright scams, then they'll be funneled the risky users we're trying to protect. We'd then be left in a situation in which safe, responsible users are being forced to pay extra and wait longer for a product they already know how to use responsibly.
A better option, I believe, would be a community funded, voluntary program that vendors can enroll in.
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It's not really our - the vendors - issue. I don't mind havin a chat about my products with custies like stuff to do with doses and ROAs but that's as far as it goes, you take responsibility from individual and they forget to think of themselves altogether.
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It's not really our - the vendors - issue. I don't mind havin a chat about my products with custies like stuff to do with doses and ROAs but that's as far as it goes, you take responsibility from individual and they forget to think of themselves altogether.
With any job comes bullshit Lim. The point of no return is when the bullshit outweighs the profit of the operation. I'd imagine it'd take quite a shitstorm to outweigh the profit for a vendor like yourself. Any "job" (legal or illegal) has shitty moments, being a SR vendor is no exception. I agree that the kids gotta go, but who in the hell is going to give a non drug vendor their address where likely that same address will be used only days later as a drop for MDMA?
If you don't want to vend then quit, otherwise keep running your shit the way you want to and the children will fall into place.
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if we all sold our children as food to the rich this problem wouldn't exist, the kids would stop being a burden on vendors and make themselves beneficial to the public
hehehe, what a modest proposal you have here. ;D
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Ultimately the final responsibility lies with the buyer. But any responsible vendor would provide some information on their product, or at the very least a simple link.
If you really wanted to put something in place to help with harm reduction. When someone buys a product you could have a pop up window saying, 'As the buyer of this product I have read all relevant information (provide link) and I understand that using this product is MY choice and I take responsibility for myself when doing this' Tick YES/NO. Although I think even this is a step too far.
It's like DPR states in his 'a few words' statement;
The old saying, “with freedom comes responsibility,” couldn't be more true here. You will find easy access to things that could get you in trouble with your authorities and are downright terrible for your health. So, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. However, I'm not your daddy and it's your job to judge what is good and bad for you. No one else can do that.
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Reposted from Lim's thread, perhaps I'm becoming guilty of hubris because it appeals partly to my self interest, but I think this is a good idea and want a broader selection of people to analyze and critique it.
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If markets like SR are to be regulated in any semi-legal/decriminalized government approved fashion in the distant future, it is imperative that some mechanism, much like Capcha for distinguishing between person/machine, is developed as a age restriction.
My own view is, if we're setting somewhat arbitrary limits, that it is 15+ for MDMA and weed, 18+ for opiates. The problem then becomes the same one that buggers our governments, which is that you're making an allure for hard drugs by designating them as "18+", suddenly h is cool and MDMA is drool. Not exactly the intention. But its results that count, not intentions. The government also sometimes uses price controls with alcohol in the UK for example such that usually only adults can purchase items. This is also severely retarded, you penalize everybody for the sake of a minority. I think it's more effective if enforced properly, but still completely retarded from a moral point of view.
However, there is a definitive difference between a human and a computer, not so much between an older human and a younger one. Therein lies the crux of the problem practically.
I also do not believe it's all about 'age'. Some people can be in their 30s or 40s or older, and still act immature. This has been frequently noted...
==>> What we really want, is a way then, to distinguish responsible SR users from non-responsible ones in a rigorous manner.
We can stipulate a "limit" system, but what will naturally occur is that it will be a failure because it doesn't address the problem. Essentially, when you get right down to it, everybody wants a distinction between "mature" and "moron", because if preventing somebody using a drug in the wrong way or taking too much of it is the goal here, then the Mature/Moron criteria is clearly the one you want to be using. It is simply a better approximation to reality than using age restrictions, which are altogether too crude.
We don't need to emulate the government, because they kind of cocked it up already. We can do it better than they can.
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I have a solution, which is that you give me money. :D
Only joking slightly, but I think this would be highly effective. Let me explain.
When a vendor discovers some half illiterate punk (punk <3) trying to nab some product, he becomes suspicious about the maturity of the said punk, as we can see from Lim's consternation.
What happens, is that you say to this punk. "You can buy from me". "No problem. I can't prevent you, this is an anonymous network, you could always register with a new alt."
However!
"First you must acquire this package from pine". says the wise and noble vendor. "What package" says the punk?
"Well it is simple, I sell MDMA, so you must acquire an MDMA support package from pine (and her competition) for *your first buy*" says the vendor.
This MDMA support package is a standard package signed off on by DPR. It contains two simple things.
1. A vial of MDMA testing reagent to ensure it is actually MDMA you're ingesting.
2. A informative letter explaining the correct dosage for males/female per kg in a simple and easily understood manner. Also included would be the half-life and directions on "best practices".
3. An identity number that Pine reports back to the vendor so they know they can stop putting the newb's order on hold.
Meanwhile, while they're waiting for product, they will be excited about their first SR buy, and will almost certainly read the letter and example the instructions for the vial as a result. They have nothing to lose, and neither do we, apart from a small quantity of money.
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What do you think?
It is entirely voluntary. No vendor is forced to do this. You simply join "Pine's Responsible Drug Consumption League" and take an oath where you (with complete discretion) decide whether or not to send a package outright, or whether to demand that the consumer acquire a "care package" from pine firstly. Perhaps on a first buy for opiates this ought to be mandatory.
THAT, I think, is what we want the newspapers to report on us. We find the irresponsible newbs (handily capturing both the morons in the adult market as well as a majority of immature kids).
Alternatively, the payment stategy would be that the care packages are FREE, but that DPR buys them on these newb's behalf from myself.
I think this is a good idea. Not only because I make money, but also from an ethical/moral/commercial point of view.
There is only one serious problem I can think of really. That is that I would be receiving the addresses of many SR newbs, so you would have to trust me doubly in comparison to a normal vendor. But... with competition that would arise naturally, a selection of trusted or random people could be preselected by DPR and that problem is solved.
<insert your thoughts into my thought experiment here>
Pine I love the idea, I'm all for spreading harm reduction information however I dont think your plan is effective as others have mentioned. If you think back to highschool, you may recall that (at least where I'm from) all students were provided with the proper reading material, and were in theory forced to at least be in the class room learning. And yet the dumb fucks would still fail all the tests.
So I think the simpler and more effective option would be to create standard tests for each specific drug sold on SR(along with a pre-test information page). Much of it could be the same for an entire class of drug other than dose and such. Vendors could require that each buyer has passed the test for that specific drug. For examble I sell MXE. I'd like each buyer to know the dose range, potential risks, what to do if ODing, and how fast it hits how long it lasts etc. At least this way there is some method to show that they have the knowledge necessary to safely use the drug they intend to buy and didn't just ignore all the info presented to them.
Perhaps if sellers thought this was too much to ask there could be a broad drug test that would at least test buyers on things every drug user show know such as where to get accurate drug info or dispelling some dangerous drug myth or hell, even simple stuff like not talking to the police without a lawyer. It can still go in one ear out the other and be forgotten as soon as the test has been passed but they'd at least have seen the info before.
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==>> What we really want, is a way then, to distinguish responsible SR users from non-responsible ones in a rigorous manner.
Why not add math captcha before registration, say:
Integral of exp(-x²)
The example is simple and will not cause problems for adults. It is also possible to write some tasks on Fourier series or Bessel functions. If the kids will get used to solving simple math tasks, we can take some selected tasks from Donald Knuth. One must write the answer in TeX and submit it in given time. Kids would not answer, yet there will be another problem: the number of Silk Road users would decrease 10 times.
Some simple tasks from Donald Knuth huh? At least if you get busted when you get out of prison you'll be able to hack into the government's computer networks and schedule a demolition order on DEA HQ in between unifying all of physics with a field theory and somehow making Justin Bieber less annoying.
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Ultimately the final responsibility lies with the buyer. But any responsible vendor would provide some information on their product, or at the very least a simple link.
If you really wanted to put something in place to help with harm reduction. When someone buys a product you could have a pop up window saying, 'As the buyer of this product I have read all relevant information (provide link) and I understand that using this product is MY choice and I take responsibility myself when doing this' Tick YES/NO. Although I think even this is a step too far.
It's like DPR states in his 'a few words' statement;
The old saying, “with freedom comes responsibility,” couldn't be more true here. You will find easy access to things that could get you in trouble with your authorities and are downright terrible for your health. So, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. However, I'm not your daddy and it's your job to judge what is good and bad for you. No one else can do that.
Yet another war on drugs complete failure. Many of the RC vendors will not talk about consumption as all for fear of the analogue act. RC are the hardest to find accurate info on and the gov makes it impossilble for the vendors to keep the users safe. If they want to ban the drug jsut fucking ban it but the analogue acts makes it legalish to sell RCs as long as you dont give out any hard reduction info :(
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in our humble opinnion..
just put a disclaimer with a link to erowid.org and let anybody confirm that he knows the risks associated etc.
If you put in a text about degrees of pureness , possible death..not use it with heard dysfunctions or whatever ..
we could pay a doctor to create a really cool disclaimer :)
if SR admins agree we probably know a few who could produce a good disclaimer..just open up a bitcoin bounty 8)
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in our humble opinnion..
just put a disclaimer with a link to erowid.org and let anybody confirm that he knows the risks associated etc.
If you put in a text about degrees of pureness , possible death..not use it with heard dysfunctions or whatever ..
we could pay a doctor to create a really cool disclaimer :)
if SR admins agree we probably know a few who could produce a good disclaimer..just open up a bitcoin bounty 8)
I hate to sound apathetic but I believe it is each parent's responsibility to police their child's own internet activity, just as they're responsible for making sure they're not allowed to be alone late at night, or go off with strangers, drink too much beer etc. I've had clients who were under 18 but I feel what goes on in their household is between them and their parents/guardians, why do we need to be the moral custodians of youthful innocence after all? :-D
V.
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We think a disclaimer will of course never stop kids from buying drugs BUT at least it goes to show that people here indeed care and this marketplace is going to change all the factors which in the end are responsible for deaths etc.
It will bei more of a "sign" than actually preventing much.
Maybe parents come here to buy the substances for their kids ..show them the dangers and help them to achieve responsible drug use. 8)
at least nobody can scream "unmoral drug dealers" all over the place..we all know 90% of the problems with drugs are because they are illegal.
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Gom jabbar.
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Yea, the free market! Let's regulate the shit out of it with re-hashed governmental harm prevention strategies!
;)
I haven't been on here forever, but it seems obvious to me that this idea is impractical...
Granted, there are probably vendors who are so ethically concerned about the type(s) their product is reaching... But on the whole I just don't see the point in having an unregulated market-place just to go slap a load of preventative precursors on the act of trading.
The initiative came from a good place, and I understand you don't want people getting hurt and want to improve the MSM's opinion of SR.
The reality of the situation, at least from my standpoint, is that people are responsible for themselves, teen punks (<3) included.
I can see a lion. I can see that the lion has big strong paws and huge teeth. It is my choice whether I want to go and pet that lion, and I alone suffer the consequences. Awful metaphor, but you know whaddamean.
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I hate to sound apathetic but I believe it is each parent's responsibility to police their child's own internet activity, just as they're responsible for making sure they're not allowed to be alone late at night, or go off with strangers, drink too much beer etc. I've had clients who were under 18 but I feel what goes on in their household is between them and their parents/guardians, why do we need to be the moral custodians of youthful innocence after all? :-D
V.
I agree with this. I'm sure media and LE would try to vilify SR for enabling youth or some nonsense but if a kid is on here, that's the parent's responsibility. If you're a fuckup and can't raise your kid, it's not anybody else's fault. And if you're an open-minded (not a total tosser of a parent) who will let your kid go try things as long as they're careful, then it's still not on us that they're getting their youthful grubby hands on drugs.
And honestly, if you really want to keep youth as safe as we can, letting them shop here is sure as hell a lot better than their local dark alleyway dealer.
Cheers
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Through all these years, despite scandals and misfortune, the Silk Road continues to succeed. And there's a secret to it. It's one that's been emphasized to all of you because it's part of SR philosophy. It's the secret of letting the consumer or the marketplace, not bureaucratic planners, make the ultimate decision about what is on the shelves of our vendors or in the ships that carry products across the seas.
The centralization of `power` while noble in its intent, likely would be as effective as the pamphlets that are included with all Controlled Substances in the US, they are largely ignored and those that are read are either frighteningly technical, or overly cautious. In either situation the warning is seldom heeded nor fully understood, and through centralizing the process it opens up the possibility for ever-widening deviations from the `free market` that is the Silk Road.
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Pine, in another life you surely had the King's ear.
I tell my customers, right on my profile page. This shit is straight from the devil. If you are not in need of it or already addicted, stay the fuck away.
For all others, let them again prove that evolution is not a theory or a threat, it's a permanent work in progress.
Join the Darwin club, idiots... More room for my kids to spread their wings
I am here to exploit the natives.
Natives, be warned.
I, myself, prefer red wine.