Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: kmfkewm on May 16, 2012, 08:26 am
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anything $10,000 and over requires a report to be filed
keeping information like this exclusive to your secret vendors forum that is undoubtedly as infiltrated by LE as the entire public forum is just silly, you can look this shit up on Google stop keeping information from people. If a vendors packaging method can't stand being known by LE then that vendor is fucked up the ass because LE can order from them in the first place. Security by obscurity is stupid and its counter productive and its insane to think that LE can't get an account on the vendors only page considering vendor accounts are up for sale, you are just keeping this information from everyone else.
SR gets more an more restrictive by the day, how can an Agorist free market forum be so damn strict and quick to stifle conversations
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who made this secret?
this is pretty common information to most adults who have any sort of finacial responsibility
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Thats pretty common knowledge, sorry but what is the point of this post? i apologize if i am missing something but it seems to be put together with wet tissue
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A thread asking this question was locked on the grounds that it would reveal information that only vendors need to know
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=23271.0
The point of this post is to point out that it is stupid to lock such a thread for many reasons, one being that the information is pretty much common knowledge.
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A thread asking this question was locked on the grounds that it would reveal information that only vendors need to know
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=23271.0
The point of this post is to point out that it is stupid to lock such a thread for many reasons, one being that the information is pretty much common knowledge.
Limetless has made a category mistake. Probably an honest mistake rather than self interest. The threshold quantities for generating a SAR report are actually well known. It is even the subject of an episode of The Sopranos. And it has been mentioned before on this forum, I think I myself mentioned a while back that you ought to half the threshold quantity as a precaution with whatever laundering schema you're using.
There a very short list of things we can develop/work out that a LEO cannot figure out for themselves.
Dissemination of powerful, accurate information for all buyers and vendors is a big part of why this forum exists. As a general rule, a fluent network benefits us far far more than it does LE listening to the grapevine.
Some things ought to be censored, but these almost always come under the category of keeping anonymity.
e.g. If I told the forum:
- a specific buyer's address, even order details
- how a specific vendor packages his product
- how a specific person launders capital
- how a specific person synthesizes product
that would be a mistake. This is always secret sauce. That is why PGP.
However, general information about how to package product, launder capital or synthesize product ought to be spread as much as possible. Otherwise all of pine's tutorials ought to be locked as well. And the Polyfront should be a banned onion URL etc. (http://2po5jdzeffv2kyv3.onion/polyfront/)
Another example:
Let us say that we're talking about cashing out bitcoins by the use of some manner of credit card or debit card. In that case you should describe the process of making it work properly, but ideally you shouldn't prescribe a specific product on the market i.e. everybody else can just use search engines for the appropriate keywords and come to their own conclusions independently on what products to use. This is because mentioning the specific provider might result in LE red flagging everything to do with that provider if they are popular here, and not the other dozen providers with identical services that are less popular here.
Not asking for perfection, moderation is more art than science. Just don't do LEO's job for them - err on the side of being liberal.
btw: mad pine is very mad, its postcount is ruined >.<
btw2: haven't forgotten, hashing script is nearing completion
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I was aware of the $10k limit that you have to fill out forms to deposit or withdraw. Google searching also reveals that frequent cash withdrawals and deposits can also be flagged as "anomalies" and reported by both tellers trained in anti-laundering schemes as well as banking software designed to look for possible laundering. So the question pertained more to if anyone knew amounts and frequencies other than the $10k deposit/withdrawal limit that may get flagged as suspicious.
I also agree that this information is general and would have nothing to do with LE tracking you. The resulting information can only be used to help other vendors stay safe.
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pine is struggling with becoming more concise ;_;
Anyway;
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You have work to do. A lot. You will also need to acquire some new shelving for all the material you're going to have to read. I hope you can speed read, because now would be good time to learn.
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-> Read some money laundering case studies. The link is on the forums if you search for the Egmont Group.
Once you've a feel for how red flags work, it is time to do some serious work. All the information you need is publicly available but not that accessible even with search engines. Reading wiki pages will only take you so far. There are jobs which are all about money laundering on the market. Some classical examples are AML software programmers, credit fraud analysts, AML industrial psychologists, offshore bankers etc. Frequent yourself with the jargon of these fields. There are even courses you can go on.
-> Then read their books and literature. They are obscure journals and heavy tomes that hardly anybody reads apart from (maybe) the authors.
Nice things: Learning this information is a 'transportable skill', like being a good communicator. So even if your plan doesn't work out...
Bad things: It's a ton of work. It'll take at least a year to get good at this. There is no 12 step program.
In any case, you can't scale up any black market business without being proficient at money laundering.
Protip: I don't mean to be flippant, but AML penalties *are* extremely draconian. So -> don't get caught. There's no second chances. There can be no trial and error.
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Flags get thrown at the 3k level much much lower than 10k.
Just because it doesnt actually require paperwork doesnt mean that much.
If you think your cool at $9999.99 think again.
That's true too. There's a wide range of circumstances that generate SAR reports, not simply 10k.
btw: didn't you have a higher post count? What happened? Or are you playing games with unicode.
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Flags get thrown at the 3k level much much lower than 10k.
Just because it doesnt actually require paperwork doesnt mean that much.
If you think your cool at $9999.99 think again.
That's true too. There's a wide range of circumstances that generate SAR reports, not simply 10k.
btw: didn't you have a higher post count? What happened? Or are you playing games with unicode.
moon likes to delete his account to keep people on their toes.
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anything $10,000 and over requires a report to be filed
keeping information like this exclusive to your secret vendors forum that is undoubtedly as infiltrated by LE as the entire public forum is just silly, you can look this shit up on Google stop keeping information from people. If a vendors packaging method can't stand being known by LE then that vendor is fucked up the ass because LE can order from them in the first place. Security by obscurity is stupid and its counter productive and its insane to think that LE can't get an account on the vendors only page considering vendor accounts are up for sale, you are just keeping this information from everyone else.
SR gets more an more restrictive by the day, how can an Agorist free market forum be so damn strict and quick to stifle conversations
This post to me doesn't seem to have a lot of point, other than you're annoyed with SR. I don't think Limetless was trying to stifle general knowledge about money, just more specific things that really shouldn't be on the forums. Also getting a spot in the vendor forums doesn't simply come with buying an account.
My opinion on the whole thing is there should be no reason to discuss much of anything related to packaging or money ANYWHERE in the forums. As most of these things however small actually hurt rather than help our community.
just my 2 cents,
Rocker
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financial security is for both buyers and sellers alike. it isn't just sellers who are moving that amount of money around rocker, and why not have it as public knowledge. as for packaging, specifics about safe packaging should also be publicly available. that isn't to say that posting something like vendor A ships packages in red birthday card envelopes with a labels made from a typewriter that has a raised letter b, and they are postmarked from x-zip code, and he uses hello kitty stamps. like it has been said before, if LE wants to know how a specific vendor ships, they will simply place an order with that vendor. it is that simple. and since it requires more than just having a seller account to get access to the seller section, are you saying that new sellers who have not yet gained access to that section should have to learn shipping info the hard way? The Vendor only section should be used to make the road better in general, not keep information from the buyers here. identifying scams (both buyer and seller) Is the only real reason I see for the secret road. Well I guess working together on group buys and such would help lower prices, but I doubt much time is spent there doing that. My estimation is that there are lots of threads trying to prove who among us are cops (but if you are taking care of your business correctly, it doesn't really matter who they are) and probably alot of calling out of scam buyers trying to get away without paying for their 3.5g of weed or whatever, but probably not alot of work on preventing tony76 from happening. In fact, he is still listed as a vendor, so if he does log back on, he can access the secret area. maybe they need to create a new group for called SR scammers, so people like him can apply and have their own secret area.
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anything $10,000 and over requires a report to be filed
keeping information like this exclusive to your secret vendors forum that is undoubtedly as infiltrated by LE as the entire public forum is just silly, you can look this shit up on Google stop keeping information from people. If a vendors packaging method can't stand being known by LE then that vendor is fucked up the ass because LE can order from them in the first place. Security by obscurity is stupid and its counter productive and its insane to think that LE can't get an account on the vendors only page considering vendor accounts are up for sale, you are just keeping this information from everyone else.
SR gets more an more restrictive by the day, how can an Agorist free market forum be so damn strict and quick to stifle conversations
This post to me doesn't seem to have a lot of point, other than you're annoyed with SR. I don't think Limetless was trying to stifle general knowledge about money, just more specific things that really shouldn't be on the forums. Also getting a spot in the vendor forums doesn't simply come with buying an account.
My opinion on the whole thing is there should be no reason to discuss much of anything related to packaging or money ANYWHERE in the forums. As most of these things however small actually hurt rather than help our community.
just my 2 cents,
Rocker
No I wasn't trying to stifle any knowledge per se and the more that is available that is relevant to the needs to the buyers the better.
HOWEVER my point is that what is NOT beneficial to the vendors (whom you purchase your lovely drugs from) is that discussion of ML and how to cash out is becoming more and more open and that isn't going to do anything but help people get fucked over. I made whole post about this in the Vendor forum and it is detrimental to be blatantly talking about how to cash out because all it does is feed LE info as to how shit gets done. You are just passing them the keys to your own demise doing this.
If you look at the FBI report on BitCoin you can see that LE already has fairly decent idea about how shit gets done, we don't need to feed them more.
Nobody is restricting knowledge here, in fact I encourage people to take responsibility for their security (be it digital, financial, whatever the fuck ever) but discretion is the better part of valor here. Ask vendors that have been around, mods, whatever for help directly especially when it comes to money because the dark magic is OURS and we should keep it for US. This forum is public remember, and we all know what kind of eyes watch it.
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who made this secret?
this is pretty common information to most adults who have any sort of finacial responsibility
thats what I was thinking:)
hell, my bank had me fill out papers for w/ding $5000+ from my acct....
totally legit funds of course but seemed odd to me at the time since it wasnt 10K
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who made this secret?
this is pretty common information to most adults who have any sort of finacial responsibility
thats what I was thinking:)
hell, my bank had me fill out papers for w/ding $5000+ from my acct....
totally legit funds of course but seemed odd to me at the time since it wasnt 10K
LOL that isn't the part I am taking issue with. In the thread I locked questions were being asked about how to cash out BTC in quantity and openly discussing that is the problem.
Think about this for a second. A vendor discusses openly how he cashes out on this forum and LE sees it, LE then orders from said vendor and then has the general locality in which he lives, then lets say the anonymous debit card was used (fuck it, everyone has spoken about this so much it's public knowledge anyway) and LE an easily trace the transactions of all ATM's in a specific day lets say. From there you take the data and then narrow down the withdrawals taking out the 100s or 1000s of transactions that were done with cards from regular current accounts to the ones that are from anonymous (and yes, they can differentiate between the two). Already you have narrowed your search down hugely and then all you have to do is monitor that information from those cards to pull out withdrawal habits of those who consistently withdraw a lot at a time. Even if you switch up cards you can still see that as an anomaly because they can just pick up on which ATM's have the most 1-time transactions with anonymous credit cards.
With all this in mind you may understand my position a little more.
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The 10k info is correct but it is far more complicated than that. In the banking industry it is referred to as AML (Anti Money Laundering) and there are a lot of things that will set off the reporting.
For example:
Two 5k transfers to another account or two 5k checks to the same person.
9999$ is a big key off that sets off a report.
several checks or transfers in the same week that equal a total greater that 10k
Large cash deposits or several small uniform cash deposits. IE: $1000, $1000, $1000, etc. This is why the mob often ran vending companies. It is not unusual for companies that run vending machines to make large cash deposits.
Then there are a list of watched locations like off shore accounts.
I would assume that large transfers into or out of known bitcoin providers sets it off as well however the last AML training I had was prior to bitcoin existing. I do know that at the time they were scrutinizing paypal transfers over 4k
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who made this secret?
this is pretty common information to most adults who have any sort of finacial responsibility
thats what I was thinking:)
hell, my bank had me fill out papers for w/ding $5000+ from my acct....
totally legit funds of course but seemed odd to me at the time since it wasnt 10K
LOL that isn't the part I am taking issue with. In the thread I locked questions were being asked about how to cash out BTC in quantity and openly discussing that is the problem.
Think about this for a second. A vendor discusses openly how he cashes out on this forum and LE sees it, LE then orders from said vendor and then has the general locality in which he lives, then lets say the anonymous debit card was used (fuck it, everyone has spoken about this so much it's public knowledge anyway) and LE an easily trace the transactions of all ATM's in a specific day lets say. From there you take the data and then narrow down the withdrawals taking out the 100s or 1000s of transactions that were done with cards from regular current accounts to the ones that are from anonymous (and yes, they can differentiate between the two). Already you have narrowed your search down hugely and then all you have to do is monitor that information from those cards to pull out withdrawal habits of those who consistently withdraw a lot at a time. Even if you switch up cards you can still see that as an anomaly because they can just pick up on which ATM's have the most 1-time transactions with anonymous credit cards.
With all this in mind you may understand my position a little more.
my post wasnt directed towards you .... I understand fully about your reasons
was just making a random pointless post cause I fingers were feeling froggy:)
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my post wasnt directed towards you .... I understand fully about your reasons
was just making a random pointless post cause I fingers were feeling froggy:)
Haha fair play g. :)
To be fair the big paragraph was addressing the thread to explain my reasoning in general.
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Disclaimer: My only connect with money laundering is through movies.
Since money laundering is a big part of organized crime groups, I would take it LE knows way more about it than the average vendor ?
Even more, Drachma was asking about practical limitations and not "how to cash out BTC in large amounts". Maybe Limetless was thinking ahead but I don't see the harm of explaining the AML system. There are probably official guidelines posted somewhere so in a way, we're just sharing government's knowledge.
In the thread I locked questions were being asked about how to cash out BTC in quantity and openly discussing that is the problem.
I'm looking for information on how much and how frequently electronic deposits can be made. As well as the amount and frequency that cash can be withdrawn without tripping flags for suspicious behavior. Primarily I'm wondering if $1,000/week being deposited and withdrawn as cash would be suspicious activity.
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Disclaimer: My only connect with money laundering is through movies.
Since money laundering is a big part of organized crime groups, I would take it LE knows way more about it than the average vendor ?
Even more, Drachma was asking about practical limitations and not "how to cash out BTC in large amounts". Maybe Limetless was thinking ahead but I don't see the harm of explaining the AML system. There are probably official guidelines posted somewhere so in a way, we're just sharing government's knowledge.
Yes of course but my point is the the alphabet mafia are still getting used to and working out how to deal with implications of the black economy and all information past the level of "buy some bitcoins at Mt Gox" should be discussed very low key. You have to understand that ML is not one of those "Right, it's banned" subjects like say....heroin is. Money Laundering evolves constantly because of the different laws that open up and create/close loop holes so what you may think is old may be old but then some bright spark adapts it and then just shouts about it on the forum then he may as well have jotted it down on paper and forwarded on.
If you think about how many different vendors on here who have their own method each one will have their own system that they have adapted over time and is most convenient. If LE crack this place through finance which is the most likely method considering they can't take down TOR every time someone talks openly about how they receive funds openly is basically handing them a bit more of the puzzle.
That's why I locked it.
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Limetless my point is that OP was asking about flags (amount, frequency) and not specific solutions to the system meaning "10K" would answer his questio (but it seems more complicated than that).