Silk Road forums

Support => Feature requests => Topic started by: Tower on April 13, 2012, 05:24 pm

Title: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Tower on April 13, 2012, 05:24 pm
Sorry, I don't know English slang for selling drugs via hiding.

It's a quite popular method in Russia when you pay to the seller somehow and then he hides your stuff somewhere in the city.

With Bitcoins this tactic becomes 99% secure:
1) buyer pays to his local seller via Bitcoin and SR
2) seller hides the package in non-crowded part of his city and sends details to buyer (also he can hide it in advance)
3) buyer goes to the stash and gets his stuff

This method have one more huge advantage: you can get the drugs easily while visiting some big city for a couple of days.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city!
Post by: PrettyinGreen on April 13, 2012, 06:01 pm
Lol.  But what if the seller doesn't actually hide the drugs for you?  Or someone else finds them?  Or seller is intercepted by cops?  Or, Or, Or...  This sounds like something out of a movie.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city!
Post by: Mitanox on April 13, 2012, 06:16 pm
Its called deathdropping. Doing a deathdrop is quite common here in the EU (atleast thats what I have heard) for Kilo's at a time. I guess in big cities like NY deathdrops for small amounts are feasible.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city!
Post by: Tower on April 14, 2012, 08:27 am
Lol.  But what if the seller doesn't actually hide the drugs for you?  Or someone else finds them?  Or seller is intercepted by cops?  Or, Or, Or...  This sounds like something out of a movie.
Let's look at traditional buying via post.
What if the seller doesn't actually send package? Or customs find drugs? Or cops collect addresses of packages' destination?

It's a very good method if a seller knows how to hide. And the buyer doesn't need to tell his real name and address to anyone.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: vlad1m1r on April 14, 2012, 03:09 pm
Who gets to choose where the deathdrop is? The buyer or seller?

V.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Limetless on April 14, 2012, 03:25 pm
Death/Dead-dropping also has major disadvantages in other ways.

1. You can never guarantee a civilian wont stumble across it.
2. If someone sees you dropping the package with the terror threat in the west people could call the police and the bomb squad will be all over your spot and you. Even if they don't assume that they will assume that something shady is going on.
3. You can never guarantee it isn't a sting, it leaves you way more exposed that if you are having a large amount of product shipped somewhere and then you can stake out the area before the collection from your PO box or you can have it delivered to a bent address which wont matter if it is hit anyway.

Just my thoughts on this.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jollymolly on April 14, 2012, 07:11 pm
Sort of like geocaching for drugs?

One major problem I see is maybe scammers ordering once to see where the vendor usually drops then waits there for other people's packages. Or if the vendor doesn't use the same spot then it would be pretty tedious finding a spot for every new customer.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: dolphinspeak on April 14, 2012, 07:28 pm
One major problem I see is maybe scammers ordering once to see where the vendor usually drops then waits there for other people's packages. Or if the vendor doesn't use the same spot then it would be pretty tedious finding a spot for every new customer.

Ah, you beat me to it. This is exactly the point I was going to bring up. Once people know the drop, they can steal other people's orders. Once LE know the drop (ie. after placing 1 successful order), they can stake it out. Also, if nosey neighbours notice a shady character sniffing about to find a unique drop for each order, they might call the police and the vendor might have drugs on his/her person. There are a lot of problems with this method of delivery.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Tower on April 14, 2012, 08:22 pm
Who gets to choose where the deathdrop is? The buyer or seller?
Seller.

Death/Dead-dropping also has major disadvantages in other ways.

1. You can never guarantee a civilian wont stumble across it.
2. If someone sees you dropping the package with the terror threat in the west people could call the police and the bomb squad will be all over your spot and you. Even if they don't assume that they will assume that something shady is going on.
3. You can never guarantee it isn't a sting, it leaves you way more exposed that if you are having a large amount of product shipped somewhere and then you can stake out the area before the collection from your PO box or you can have it delivered to a bent address which wont matter if it is hit anyway.

Just my thoughts on this.
1. It's about several hours between the drop and the pick. And the package is very small for most purchases.
2. It's not a huge box, but a tiny package. Even bombing-paranoid citizen will not see terrorist treat. :)
3. I don't think you can become exposed in really big cities like NY or Moscow by stopping at some place for several minutes. It's not a village. The only exception is London with its CCTV.

One major problem I see is maybe scammers ordering once to see where the vendor usually drops then waits there for other people's packages. Or if the vendor doesn't use the same spot then it would be pretty tedious finding a spot for every new customer.
I don't think it's very hard to find new spots for really tiny packages. Package for drugs in powder can be made almost invisible for anyone. The only really bulk (and smelly!) stuff is weed.

Ah, you beat me to it. This is exactly the point I was going to bring up. Once people know the drop, they can steal other people's orders. Once LE know the drop (ie. after placing 1 successful order), they can stake it out. Also, if nosey neighbours notice a shady character sniffing about to find a unique drop for each order, they might call the police and the vendor might have drugs on his/her person. There are a lot of problems with this method of delivery.
No repeating drop spots.
Neighbours? I traveled to Moscow, London, NY and SF. Nobody gives a fuck about your actions until you are quiet and dressed casually.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: vlad1m1r on April 14, 2012, 08:51 pm
Who gets to choose where the deathdrop is? The buyer or seller?
Seller.

Death/Dead-dropping also has major disadvantages in other ways.

1. You can never guarantee a civilian wont stumble across it.
2. If someone sees you dropping the package with the terror threat in the west people could call the police and the bomb squad will be all over your spot and you. Even if they don't assume that they will assume that something shady is going on.
3. You can never guarantee it isn't a sting, it leaves you way more exposed that if you are having a large amount of product shipped somewhere and then you can stake out the area before the collection from your PO box or you can have it delivered to a bent address which wont matter if it is hit anyway.

Just my thoughts on this.
1. It's about several hours between the drop and the pick. And the package is very small for most purchases.
2. It's not a huge box, but a tiny package. Even bombing-paranoid citizen will not see terrorist treat. :)
3. I don't think you can become exposed in really big cities like NY or Moscow by stopping at some place for several minutes. It's not a village. The only exception is London with its CCTV.

One major problem I see is maybe scammers ordering once to see where the vendor usually drops then waits there for other people's packages. Or if the vendor doesn't use the same spot then it would be pretty tedious finding a spot for every new customer.
I don't think it's very hard to find new spots for really tiny packages. Package for drugs in powder can be made almost invisible for anyone. The only really bulk (and smelly!) stuff is weed.

Ah, you beat me to it. This is exactly the point I was going to bring up. Once people know the drop, they can steal other people's orders. Once LE know the drop (ie. after placing 1 successful order), they can stake it out. Also, if nosey neighbours notice a shady character sniffing about to find a unique drop for each order, they might call the police and the vendor might have drugs on his/her person. There are a lot of problems with this method of delivery.
No repeating drop spots.
Neighbours? I traveled to Moscow, London, NY and SF. Nobody gives a fuck about your actions until you are quiet and dressed casually.

Well on the face of it it sounds safer than having stuff delivered to your home address. Indeed if I were LE, I'd ask for the address to obtain proof linking an account on here with their identity.

My only worry would be as you say the possibility of a sting, the package being damaged or discovered and the possibility a crooked seller could photograph the buyer collecting the package and try to blackmail them.

I have said before I think the best method is to have an address to which you can safely send items like a Post Office or a PO Box in a false name.

V.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: mdmamail on April 15, 2012, 07:29 am
You can go to plant stores and buy those tubes you can shove into the ground. Take the GPS location and give it to somebody, or tell them where to look.

Cameras everywhere, so wear this special hat :)
http://hackedgadgets.com/2008/02/21/ir-leds-used-to-defeat-security-cameras/
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Tower on April 15, 2012, 09:03 am
My only worry would be as you say the possibility of a sting, the package being damaged or discovered and the possibility a crooked seller could photograph the buyer collecting the package and try to blackmail them.

I have said before I think the best method is to have an address to which you can safely send items like a Post Office or a PO Box in a false name.
In my opinion, sting and discovered package are more possible while getting stuff through post and customs.
And you can't blackmail a buyer if you don't know him personally. This type of deals will not display anyone's name or address.

I think the main difficulty is to get enough local sellers to Tor and SR to have several active sellers for each major city in different countries.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Tower on April 15, 2012, 10:34 am
Just get the information about Russian method of capturing deathdroppers.

LE order several drops and then searches through carrier databases for mobile phones that were at all drop spots. So, leave your phones at home. :)
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: lucas121212 on April 15, 2012, 10:45 am
this is a terrible terrible idea

too much risk and loss of anonymity
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Limetless on April 15, 2012, 11:36 am
this is a terrible terrible idea

too much risk and loss of anonymity

YUP!!!!!
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Tower on April 15, 2012, 04:38 pm
loss of anonymity
Lol, no. Where do you see it?
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: vlad1m1r on April 15, 2012, 05:29 pm
loss of anonymity
Lol, no. Where do you see it?

As I mentioned before if the seller asks the buyer to pick up some drugs for instance from a certain location, the buyer is taking it on faith that the seller isn't a cop who's going to arrest him/her as soon as the drugs have been retrieved.

As I mentioned before, the blackmail potential is enormous too. If someone were photographed/videoed in possession of drugs and the seller then threatened to provide the picture/video to the local Police, the buyer would have to choose between bribing them into silence or taking their chances the Police won't recognise their face or show it anyone who will.

While I agree you shouldn't use your home address to receive contraband there are safer methods. If a dead drop is being used I think the buyer should decide where it is.

V.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Limetless on April 15, 2012, 09:18 pm
loss of anonymity
Lol, no. Where do you see it?

Ok, Dead/Deathdropping was used by the Soviet/Western Spying networks hugely to pass information to networks and guess when those spies were caught most often....making the drops or collecting them. Same principle with drug dealing. That's why it jeopardizes your anonymity so much because unless skip the dog or innocent little Timmy wanders looks around the area ONLY you the buyers or the seller is going to be using that place to drop off the product. If someone catches you doing that then it's potentially game over.

And yes the package may be very small but then so was the shoe bombers bomb as well, the knives that were used to take control of the planes in 9/11, an ounce of C4 plastic explosive, an IED in Afghanistan or whatever the fuck ever. I mean Christ, have you ever seen the inside of a nuclear warhead? The Uranium/Plutonium ball inside it is tiny so with how OTT people are it wouldn't be an unreasonable leap for some paranoid geezer to think "Oh shit they are planting something sinister, ring the rozzers!"

You are far better off just using as many different post offices as you can. For example I live in a city so I have about 20+ to choose from and that's being lazy. I never use the same one every time and I wear gloves. "What if they ask why you do that?" you may ask. Easy answer: Skin condition. :)
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: brutusk on April 15, 2012, 11:53 pm
No way I would do this, there are just too many what-ifs. Selling by post has fewer risks imo.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: 34tuforlunch on April 16, 2012, 03:10 pm
Le would be on this to hard. It only really works well for gangs and shit that are heavily watched 24/7 when they don't want to use mail and want to reduce the chance of getting caught by %50. They just use a car each person has a set of keys. Simple stuff.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 14, 2012, 10:42 am
As I mentioned before if the seller asks the buyer to pick up some drugs for instance from a certain location, the buyer is taking it on faith that the seller isn't a cop who's going to arrest him/her as soon as the drugs have been retrieved.

SR feedback, reviews, and such would still apply. You research before buying. Buyer is taking on faith when purchasing on SR that vendor is not a cop there to harvest your address.

Quote
As I mentioned before, the blackmail potential is enormous too. If someone were photographed/videoed in possession of drugs and the seller then threatened to provide the picture/video to the local Police, the buyer would have to choose between bribing them into silence or taking their chances the Police won't recognise their face or show it anyone who will.

OP responded to this problem already. You can only blackmail someone if you know something about them. The absolute anonymity of the dead drop makes this unfeasible, not to mention how do you blackmail someone for leaning down and picking up a barely visible square piece of paper? There are no visible drugs anywhere.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 14, 2012, 10:53 am

This method have one more huge advantage: you can get the drugs easily while visiting some big city for a couple of days.

I actually really like this idea Tower.  I think the vendor is a little more inconvenienced from having to scope out new drop points all the time instead of just dropping a bunch of mail in a mailbox somewhere. But it's main advantage is to the buyer who doesn't have to provide a name/address to anyone and can remain utterly anonymous and not have to be at the mercy of when the mail arrives. When a seller processes your order and sends you back a message with gps coordinates or whatever you can just go get it.

Since it's more an inconvenience to the vendor I can only see this making sense if it's for larger buys. That cuts down on the amount of scouting you'd have to do.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 14, 2012, 11:22 am
Death/Dead-dropping also has major disadvantages in other ways.

1. You can never guarantee a civilian wont stumble across it.

This is biggest risk IMO. But this risk can be minimized such that even if civilian stumbled across it he/she wouldn't recognize what it was so wouldn't think to pick it up and examine it further.

Quote
2. If someone sees you dropping the package with the terror threat in the west people could call the police and the bomb squad will be all over your spot and you. Even if they don't assume that they will assume that something shady is going on.

Really depends what part of town you're in. If you're dead dropping in the middle of upscale suburbia then yeah, that's gonna look a little suspicious. But there are plenty of sections of any big city where ballers are dead dropping inventory all the time for other ballers to pick up and anyone who sees it knows something shady's going on but would rather not get involved. Not that you'd want to be dropping on someone's turf but I can still think of sections of town that would be good candidates where most are trying to go about their business without making eye contact and neighbors aren't looking to interfere with dead drops.
Quote
3. You can never guarantee it isn't a sting, it leaves you way more exposed that if you are having a large amount of product shipped somewhere and then you can stake out the area before the collection from your PO box or you can have it delivered to a bent address which wont matter if it is hit anyway.

If it's a sting it would mean they're onto you already from other activities or lapses in judgement. As a vendor this method stands on its own as secure since no one knows where you're planting the stuff from drop to drop except you. As a buyer it's only more secure to do mail if you actually DO set up a PO Box or fake name/drop box. I would bet most don't though. Otherwise it's a lot less risky since you maintain total anonymity.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 14, 2012, 11:36 am
Ok, Dead/Deathdropping was used by the Soviet/Western Spying networks hugely to pass information to networks and guess when those spies were caught most often....making the drops or collecting them. Same principle with drug dealing. That's why it jeopardizes your anonymity so much because unless skip the dog or innocent little Timmy wanders looks around the area ONLY you the buyers or the seller is going to be using that place to drop off the product. If someone catches you doing that then it's potentially game over.

Okay, but those cold war stings went down in ways that I don't see how is applicable here. In those cases communication from a spy to, say his soviet handlers would be intercepted and decoded leaving western intelligence trying to determine the id of the spy. Dead drops would end up being dead giveaways. In this case, if your gpg messages are intercepted and decoded they'll already have your ID and you're sort of fucked anyway whether you drop mail or drop dead.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Raoul Duke on May 14, 2012, 02:21 pm

Cameras everywhere, so wear this special hat :)
http://hackedgadgets.com/2008/02/21/ir-leds-used-to-defeat-security-cameras/

i'm getting one of these :)
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: war on May 14, 2012, 02:28 pm
Death/Dead-dropping also has major disadvantages in other ways.

1. You can never guarantee a civilian wont stumble across it.
2. If someone sees you dropping the package with the terror threat in the west people could call the police and the bomb squad will be all over your spot and you. Even if they don't assume that they will assume that something shady is going on.
3. You can never guarantee it isn't a sting, it leaves you way more exposed that if you are having a large amount of product shipped somewhere and then you can stake out the area before the collection from your PO box or you can have it delivered to a bent address which wont matter if it is hit anyway.

Just my thoughts on this.

+ 1

Especially #3, even if a seller was doing perfect deaddrops for a year on SR in a city like LA or New York lets say they get caught by police, boom that means that the next 5,10 and maybe even more orders will just be stings.
Yuck
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: cache on May 14, 2012, 02:31 pm

Cameras everywhere, so wear this special hat :)
http://hackedgadgets.com/2008/02/21/ir-leds-used-to-defeat-security-cameras/

i'm getting one of these :)

Cover it in tin foil and you will be everything-proof.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: RandomFellow on May 14, 2012, 04:16 pm
I had previously considered this method for retail distribution. The limiting factor is that you must have a very large number of potential dead drops such that the resources required by LE to stake each one out are prohibitive. Better still do not use the same one twice. However that also requires giving careful and different instructions to each buyer, and that is not practical. I haven't solve the problem yet.

By the way I saw someone mention telephones. Never take your phone with you for physical pick ups and drops offs. If you do switch it off and take the battery out before you leave home. An alternative that I have occasionally used is to slip it into a co-workers car or briefcase, switched on but silent, and then retrieve it later. It is better if your co-worker is out and about on a known route because then your phone will be leaving tracks all over the telephone network towers. This is probably overkill but I am old and paranoid. I am amazed at how many youngsters seem to forget they are dragging a GPS tracking device around in their pockets everywhere they go.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: cannaman on May 15, 2012, 01:24 am
Sorry, I don't know English slang for selling drugs via hiding.

It's a quite popular method in Russia when you pay to the seller somehow and then he hides your stuff somewhere in the city.

With Bitcoins this tactic becomes 99% secure:
1) buyer pays to his local seller via Bitcoin and SR
2) seller hides the package in non-crowded part of his city and sends details to buyer (also he can hide it in advance)
3) buyer goes to the stash and gets his stuff

This method have one more huge advantage: you can get the drugs easily while visiting some big city for a couple of days.

sounds cool but what if the cops are the sellers and they are waiting for you to pick up your stuff so they can bust you?
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: PlaneMode on May 15, 2012, 01:30 am
Dude, when did you come up with this idea?
did you re think it?
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 15, 2012, 04:32 am
sounds cool but what if the cops are the sellers and they are waiting for you to pick up your stuff so they can bust you?

What if your SR vendor is a cop and is waiting for you to take possession of your mail to bust you?

Like has already been said, you would have the ability to research vendors with good feedback and reviews just like you do now. How is risk you mention any greater than what you do now? If you're having it sent to your name and address that poses far greater risk than total anonymity you would have picking up a dead drop.



Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 15, 2012, 04:53 am
Especially #3, even if a seller was doing perfect deaddrops for a year on SR in a city like LA or New York lets say they get caught by police, boom that means that the next 5,10 and maybe even more orders will just be stings.
Yuck

If you're doing perfect dead drops for a year, how did you get set up in a sting? Not from your perfected dead drop protocol. It's because of other reasons that could just as easily apply as SR mail vendor. So what makes you think if you get set up in SR sting that you wouldn't have the same problem of next X amount of orders would just be stings?

It seems like a lot of posters on this thread try to shoot down this idea without bothering to read and notice that their concern was already addressed. Do most people only read OP before commenting in a thread? If so it's kind of rude to waste our bandwidth because you're too lazy to read.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Limetless on May 15, 2012, 05:06 am
Especially #3, even if a seller was doing perfect deaddrops for a year on SR in a city like LA or New York lets say they get caught by police, boom that means that the next 5,10 and maybe even more orders will just be stings.
Yuck

If you're doing perfect dead drops for a year, how did you get set up in a sting? Not from your perfected dead drop protocol. It's because of other reasons that could just as easily apply as SR mail vendor. So what makes you think if you get set up in SR sting that you wouldn't have the same problem of next X amount of orders would just be stings?

It seems like a lot of posters on this thread try to shoot down this idea without bothering to read and notice that their concern was already addressed. Do most people only read OP before commenting in a thread? If so it's kind of rude to waste our bandwidth because you're too lazy to read.

Re-read it, I never said I did. How the fuck would I have I live in the bloody U.K lol.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 15, 2012, 05:18 am
Especially #3, even if a seller was doing perfect deaddrops for a year on SR in a city like LA or New York lets say they get caught by police, boom that means that the next 5,10 and maybe even more orders will just be stings.
Yuck

If you're doing perfect dead drops for a year, how did you get set up in a sting? Not from your perfected dead drop protocol. It's because of other reasons that could just as easily apply as SR mail vendor. So what makes you think if you get set up in SR sting that you wouldn't have the same problem of next X amount of orders would just be stings?

It seems like a lot of posters on this thread try to shoot down this idea without bothering to read and notice that their concern was already addressed. Do most people only read OP before commenting in a thread? If so it's kind of rude to waste our bandwidth because you're too lazy to read.

Re-read it, I never said I did. How the fuck would I have I live in the bloody U.K lol.

Sorry I didn't mean you with that comment despite adding it onto the end of my reply.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Limetless on May 15, 2012, 05:23 am
Ah ok lol, no worries mate. :)
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: pine on May 15, 2012, 09:50 am
The correct term in English is dead drop, it's the subject of an infinite number of spy movies ;-)

Polyfront has a great resource on the subject of dead drops:

http://2po5jdzeffv2kyv3.onion/polyfront/organization.html

Quote
Product Transfer Topologies:

Smuggling organizations use one or more of the following product transfer topologies; face to face, dead drop or double dead drop.



The face to face (live drop) topology involves a person either going to a source or going to a destination, exchanging money for product, and then returning to their base location. This topology is commonly used by inexperienced networks and low level dealers. The face to face topology is insecure for a variety of reasons. The primary reason that face to face transactions are insecure is due to the risk of dealing with an undercover or an informant and controlled buys (stings) or sells (reverse stings). In a face to face transaction, a vendor must hope that they never deal with an informant or undercover agent because if they do they have zero security to protect themselves from being arrested or identified for further intelligence gathering. Another serious disadvantage of the face to face topology is the fact that product may be vulnerable in transit for significant periods of time. This is the case both with large buys being brought from one geographic area to a more distant geographic area, as well as smaller amounts of product being brought to many destinations within the same geographic area.



The dead drop topology is an improvement on the face to face topology and is ideal for secure local distribution. In a dead drop model, Alice drops (usually shoves a hollowed out spike filled with product into the fround) the product at a given location and records the GPS coordinates. Alice can now give Bob the coordinates, and by using a GPS device Bob can quickly locate the product and make a pick up. GPS is a receive only technology so there is no risk of Alice or Bob being subjected to geopositioning attacks due to the use of a GPS device.

If Alice maintains her pseudonymity/anonymity in other areas (EX: Tor for communications, Bitcoin for financial) , dead drop product transfers offer her tremendous advantages over face to face product transfers. As Bob can no longer determine Alices real identity, or even come into contact with her, Alice is significantly protected from all human intelligence based attacks (informants and undercovers) and the threat model changes to focus on the harder to exploit technical security models (signals intelligence, financial network analysis, etc). Although a malicious Bob can not easily identify Alice if dead drops are used, a malicious Alice can identify Bob. This can be expressed as follows; 'an attacker can move down, but not up'. However, dead drops also have advantages for Bob; for one there is very little risk of interception compared to the double dead drop topology. Also, dead drops do not require Bob to open a box with fake identification or get product sent to an otherwise limited number of boxes in his geographic area. Dead drops also have disadvantages over double dead drops, primarily they are only suited for local product transfers. Long distance dead drops have the same risk of interception in transit as face to face product transfers.



Another product transfer topology is the double dead drop (parasitic smuggling). In this model, Alice will drop product (at a mail box, for example) and then a neutral carrier (mail delivery service) will bring the product to another drop location (mail box) where Bob will pick it up. Double dead drops maintain the primary benefits of single dead drops; Alice is largely protected from human intelligence attacks if she otherwise maintains her anonymity. As with single dead drops, the attacker can move down the network but not up.

Double dead drops also have a variety of advantages and disadvantages as compared to single dead drops. One of the disadvantages for Bob is his requirement to either open a box with fake identification or otherwise locate a box or location suitable for having the product shipped to. Bob may do surveillance on a random house and determine the occupants schedules, by doing this Bob may be able to determine a suitable shipping location with out the requirement of opening a box himself. An advantage of double dead drops over single dead drops is their ability to transfer product over large geographic distances. Another disadvantage of the double dead drop is that the product is vulnerable to interception while it is in transit, customs and postal inspectors actively screen for contraband in the mail system (although due to the very large volumes of mail, they are incapable of detecting much of it, particularly if it does not pass through customs).

The increased risk of interception may be countered by having the ability to detect interception. This can in some cases be accomplished by monitoring the tracking however it is a bad idea to rely on this method of interception detection. A more sophisticated method of detecting interception is the use of technology. By creating RFID devices attached to photovoltaic cells with volatile memory chips, interception can be detected prior to picking up product. The interception detecting devices store a state in memory which can be made to transmit after a period of time. Battery powered RFID tags can transmit a signal over one hundred feet. By configuring the devices to wipe the volatile memory if the photovoltaic cell is triggered, we can detect interceptions. If customs opens the package, the photovoltaic cell triggers a wipe function and clears the key stored in memory. By using a wand to scan for the signal produced by the key, you can thus determine if your package was opened between the vendor sending it and your box (No transmit = opened or RFID tag removed ... Transmit = not opened and RFID tag in place). Customs will not be able to replace the state of the volatile memory after triggering the wipe sequence. More sophisticated devices can also be made in order to trigger upon oxygen and other stimuli. These devices can be created for small sums of money and are quite small.

   
(Note: It is more precise to say that product moves 'outwards' away from the source, and money moves 'inwards' toward the source)

Product transfer can be seen as taking place over a hierarchial pyramid, from top level suppliers to bottom level consumers. This is true of all distribution networks. A vendor can securely transfer product by using either the dead drop or double dead drop topologies. Additionally, measures can be taken to protect the customer (EX: Avoid mail flags, interception detection technology, fake documentation to open boxes, etc).
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: pine on May 15, 2012, 10:58 am
I think a lot of people have made good points here, it seems clear that a naive dead drop is a foolish idea, but I also think it's wrong to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Some points:

-> Like the RandomFellow says, using mobile phones or carrying them is an enormous no-no.
-> I very much like the fact that the buyer doesn't have to give his address to the vendor.
-> But on the other hand setting up dead drops for 5 grams of weed or 10 MDMA pills seems a bit James Bond.
    Clearly this makes most sense with larger quantities, esp. the kind vendors are likely to pick up.


Most importantly, the thing missing from this conservation we're having is that there's at least five additional methods of securing the buyer's anonymity or security in a very big way. The first three are only applicable for smaller quantities of product, and the others are for larger quantities.

1. You can 'fake' a dead drop. That is; you can just walk up relatively close to the dead drop area e.g. within 10 feet, and pick up the 'contraband'. Then you can just walk off.

Of course, you picked up nothing except some object you carried along which was the same size/appearance as the item you expected to really pick up.

Then, you can wander away. Content in the knowledge that if you're going to get arrested then you've nothing on your person and there is no evidence that you picked up contraband. Once you're happy, having waited a few minutes, hours, days, even weeks, you can pick up the real cache later. This stretches any LE resources to the absolute zenith. Simple but highly effective.

2. You can 'double-fake' the dead drop. That is; you can either do No.1 more than once, or you could send a pal to fake the dead drop in the first place. They can't possibly be implicated so there's no reason for them to worry.

3. You need not really worry about CCTV, hidden cameras etc. Use a hat, sunglasses and swop your clothes + get a new cover bag for your things in a toilet somewhere. Simple, but highly effective, esp. in densely populated metropolitan areas. There is no image recognition technology I am aware of that can circumvent this. Even human eyes trained on you from A to B find it almost impossible to counteract. And did I mention that your pal could be awaiting you in the same restroom? (you could swop clothes/bag here for yet another red herring).

4. You can use technology too! If the seller puts a cheap RFID chip into the cache, you can use a scanner to detect whether the cache is legitimate. Basically the tag is sensitive to interference (shop lifting tech) in some manner, so that it is only if the vendor is in cahoots with LE that the cache could be compromised. There is an entire universe of technology which could be adapted to this method, only imagination is the limit. This has been discussed many times on this forum, just search for RFID.

5. Let's say the RFID tag thing fails completely and there is a tracking device in the cache (a very likely attack vector against dead drops once LE wises up). This is actually trivial to circumvent, you just need to pop the cache into a Faraday Bag. These devices look like regular bags, except that they prevent *any* signal from getting in or out of them. Microwaves, radiowaves, you name it. It's the communications equivalent of carrying a lead safe around, but much more fashionable. *Boom*, off the radar. This in combination with with restroom swop mentioned before would bamboozle even highly tech proficient and intelligent LE.

6. For large deliveries, you can of course deposit fake caches and real caches and mix them up.

--

And I'm sure there's plenty of other ideas out there too.

The only problem I can see with this is some kinds of tracing technologies that aren't about communication e.g. dyepacks, radioactive markers etc

However, all of these technologies I can think of seem very local, you'd need to be quite close by in order to detect their presence by sight, geiger counter etc. 
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Cpt. Meow on May 15, 2012, 12:40 pm
Thanks for spreading the polyfront knowledge and for adding your own ideas, duly noted :)

as pine said, depending on how safe your dead drop location is, you could wait a random amount of time before picking up your order and thus making permanent surveillance by LE very cost intensive.

Also, be mindful of possible compartmentalisation of your operation (where and how do you pick up the substance, how do you transport it, where do you go afterwards, where and how do you transfer GPS co-ordinates etc.) Ideally there are no traces back at any stage of the operation.

Use taxi or public transport, be aware of foot prints and tire marks, etc. when travelling by car.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: oscarzululondon on May 15, 2012, 04:44 pm
Having drugs posted to your home is WAY more secure than using a dead drop.

If you have drugs posted to your address, using some random name, you can always say "hey I never requested these. they aren't for me". Especially if you don't open them for a few days and the package isn't in your name.

However if you actually go to a dead drop, you are already admitting your guilt, because you are actually going to a specific place to collect a specific package which you know must contain drugs.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 18, 2012, 04:53 am
Having drugs posted to your home is WAY more secure than using a dead drop.

If you have drugs posted to your address, using some random name, you can always say "hey I never requested these. they aren't for me". Especially if you don't open them for a few days and the package isn't in your name.

However if you actually go to a dead drop, you are already admitting your guilt, because you are actually going to a specific place to collect a specific package which you know must contain drugs.

That's if you live in a house. If you live in a condo/apartment postman won't deliver unless it's in the name of the occupant printed and taped at the mouth of the mailbox as soon as you open it. So yes, if you have a secure way of having stuff sent to you without your name anywhere as a recipient, then yeah it's more secure. But just going to a dead drop alone is not admitting guilt. They would actually have to nab you after you make the pickup else how would they even know it was you in a semi public place? And plenty of the techniques described by pine to throw off LE could work wonders to protect yourself as a buyer.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: nameless2 on May 19, 2012, 06:38 pm
Sorry, that's simply a bad idea, because the only advantage is not having to hand out your name and address.
Deaddrops implies that vendor and buyer live in the same city. This would be a domestic shipping and domestic shippings are barely seized. So what?
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 19, 2012, 06:43 pm
Sorry, that's simply a bad idea, because the only advantage is not having to hand out your name and address.
Deaddrops implies that vendor and buyer live in the same city. This would be a domestic shipping and domestic shippings are barely seized. So what?

Dude you're not making much sense. Dead drops are NOT domestic shipping. You're not sending anything in the mail so what are you talking about? The advantage is that you can buy and sell your product in the same day while keeping total anonymity. You can't do that through the mail.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: nameless2 on May 19, 2012, 06:52 pm
Sorry, that's simply a bad idea, because the only advantage is not having to hand out your name and address.
Deaddrops implies that vendor and buyer live in the same city. This would be a domestic shipping and domestic shippings are barely seized. So what?

Dude you're not making much sense. Dead drops are NOT domestic shipping. You're not sending anything in the mail so what are you talking about? The advantage is that you can buy and sell your product in the same day while keeping total anonymity. You can't do that through the mail.

LOL. Dead drops equal to domestic shipping or are the pendants, okay?
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 19, 2012, 07:06 pm

LOL. Dead drops equal to domestic shipping or are the pendants, okay?

Try speaking English okay?
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Fried Rice on May 19, 2012, 11:38 pm
You can go to plant stores and buy those tubes you can shove into the ground. Take the GPS location and give it to somebody, or tell them where to look.

Cameras everywhere, so wear this special hat :)
http://hackedgadgets.com/2008/02/21/ir-leds-used-to-defeat-security-cameras/

Awesome hat, do you rekon I could get a whole body suit made and a sickle and people would think I was a glowing grim reaper.

I had been thinking of this idea a couple of weeks ago I was suprised to see it come up. It could work, at least for the buyer if it isn't in too much of a public place you can drive/walk around as much as you want and really scope out the area to make sure its safe, and like someone else said don't rush and pick it up play it cool take your time. Also this would only be for items that are awkward to post or large items, if you did it for 10 pills you would be non stop hiding shit 24/7, it also means other thing that are really hard to post could now become available to buy I like makin mushroom tea and freeze it in 1litre bottles but that would be a bit hard to post. So I think it could work but you only want to do it for a few select things and when buyer and seller feel comfortable
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: RickyRango on May 20, 2012, 07:46 pm
It sounds like a good idea, but it's way too easy to exploit by law enforcement.  All the pigs would have to do would be to sell some drugs and get a good rep, then do a couple of dead drops to pickup buyers.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: _M4LW4R3_ on May 21, 2012, 09:41 pm
one of the videos in the Never Get Busted Again video shows how to perform a safe deathdrop for both the buyer and seller
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 23, 2012, 02:40 am
It sounds like a good idea, but it's way too easy to exploit by law enforcement.  All the pigs would have to do would be to sell some drugs and get a good rep, then do a couple of dead drops to pickup buyers.

Kind of like they could do right now through SR. What makes it more inherently risky than an SR buy?
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Limetless on May 23, 2012, 03:02 am
It sounds like a good idea, but it's way too easy to exploit by law enforcement.  All the pigs would have to do would be to sell some drugs and get a good rep, then do a couple of dead drops to pickup buyers.

Kind of like they could do right now through SR. What makes it more inherently risky than an SR buy?

Because they hope that you hit the same spot over and over again. What's more suspicious, hiding a package in a random place in a city where someone could accidentally see you, discover it....or posting a letter....
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on May 23, 2012, 05:15 am
It sounds like a good idea, but it's way too easy to exploit by law enforcement.  All the pigs would have to do would be to sell some drugs and get a good rep, then do a couple of dead drops to pickup buyers.

Kind of like they could do right now through SR. What makes it more inherently risky than an SR buy?

Because they hope that you hit the same spot over and over again. What's more suspicious, hiding a package in a random place in a city where someone could accidentally see you, discover it....or posting a letter....

That's from a vendors perspective, which I've already admitted is more hassle than dropping it in a random mailbox. But just as they might hope you use the same drop spot over and over again, they could also do the same by staking out the same mailbox hoping you use it over and over again. The sloppy put themselves inevitably at more risk.

But RickyRango was posing it from a buyer's perspective of getting setup via sting.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: logistica on June 27, 2012, 10:34 pm
i know i read a drug report form the EMCDDA (european union drug research institute) that it happens in finland or lituania. so it's not that crazy, not for small amounts though...

how about an unmanned aerial vehicle, with camera and GPS and a dropoff system. communicate with the buyer trough smartphone... he goes outside his house or wherever at the right time. UAV waits, flies buy drops off...

crazy? they use UAV for mail deliveries in south africa (basically small helicopter)
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on June 27, 2012, 11:07 pm
Well to start with using UAV's sounds not just prohibitively expensive, but pie in the sky just about impossible since you'd have to try and purchase one from one of the two sovereign nations that have capably developed and deployed them in the field at present; the US or Israel. And it's not like either country would sell a UAV to just anyone since the tech used is highly classified.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jpinkman on June 28, 2012, 11:48 pm
Deathdropping may work in some principles but it's not worth!

Let me tell you about someone I used to know.



Moral of the story: DON'T do deathdroppimng, it'll be the death of you one day!

Yeah but that wasn't because dead dropping was a flawed distribution process, but because the guy was idiotic for using the same drops over and over again like you noted.

That's like advertising to anyone he's sold to that he's a fat mark just waiting to get ripped off. If one his his buyers noticed that he was using the same drop more than once they need only stake out the drop, find out what he looks like, then follow him through his other drops and clean him out. Pure stupidity. 
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Kappacino on June 30, 2012, 10:04 am
I used to do this ages ago with people that I couldn't trust to not be police. Like if someone rang me up and they had a sketchy story as to where they got my number/they didn't sound right.

I'd have them give me cash, and then tell them the location of an envelope containing the drugs (it was always within about 30 seconds of where we were).

Retrospectively it seems pretty dumb, I wonder how this would hold up in a court of law?



Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: breathe on July 04, 2012, 03:17 am
I just don't see any advantage over the mail system unless you were ordering kilos
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: purenectar on July 04, 2012, 07:06 am
I just don't see any advantage over the mail system unless you were ordering kilos

But that's entirely the point. No one would go through the effort of this unless they needed that level of security.

Hell, the cartels do it every day in the Gulf of Mexico and over near Baja California dropping off cocaine, they have some crazy fucking ways of dead-dropping product.

With the extra layer of protection one could take using Bitcoin and Escrow, well shit that's a pretty damn good game if you ask me.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Jannis on July 04, 2012, 09:00 pm
The title of this thread is very representative of the quality of some of the posts here :) If you have just come up with the amazing new way of dead drops, read the polfront. It's a good read.

IMHO dead drops are secure, more secure than mailing. Nevertheless there's no point to them. The time consumption is only justified for +10k deals. And for +10k deals, your better trust your seller with your life anyway. And if you trust your seller with your life, meet him.

Some people forget that if the vendor is under observation or cooperating with LE, then you're fucked either way. Whether you get your drugs via mail, a dead drop or if you pick them up from his front door doesn't matter. The drug's path needs to find it's way to you and it's an easy path for LE to follow once they know where it starts.
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Bungee54 on July 30, 2012, 01:48 pm
here in Germany we always use deaddrops..

of course it only for worth 10k+ up..we used drops in the woods and in cities..you ALWAYS use new ones.

often persons attics are used in big appartment buildings or rooms accessible to anyone..

Just exchanging keys..of course payment after the drop in person or 50/50 before after.

and yes only with people you know for years..


BUT with BTC and rfid tags this will become very useful.. escrow is helpful

and you can get 10kg in 10 deadrops around the targetzone (which you can scout with gmaps through tor )


only thing you need to build up is trust..

random people finding it?

now chance ..one in a million..  when dropped the buyer has 3 hrs max to get his ass moving..of yourse the date is clear in advance etc.

our opinnion..everything up to 100g perr mail (swarmed depending on the product) everything else through deaddrops with trusted clients.

Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: masterblaster on July 30, 2012, 07:30 pm
Umm...wouldn't this involve the seller publicly disclosing what city they're in? Doesn't take a whole lot to narrow it down from there....
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: Bungee54 on July 30, 2012, 09:34 pm
dont think so..alone in our city there are dozens of high level dealers..
and just narrowing it down doesnt help LEO much..

there is a difference to what they know and what they can prove in court..

and as i said..we will for example only drop for high rep profiles
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: jagfug on August 06, 2012, 01:48 am
Not sure if it's feasible on SR, but I'm from NY and we've been doing it since the 80's at least. I'm in upstate NY originally from Long Island near NYC + a buddy of mine has much better weed than the rednecks up here, so I just call for my ounce a month. I drive down for a visit, and "stop by" his house. If he's at work, he leaves it in the bottom of a clean trash can in a bag full of plastic shopping bags. I then knock on the door, and while waiting for him, I clean some trash out of my car, ( more clean plastic shopping bags), and go to the garbage pail, take out my weed, and throw in my "garbage", leaving the money under a brick under my "garbage". It's safe from view, so it's been a good method for some time now.

Maybe you could work it on here, in a "stealth" way. Have it mailed to someone or someplace, and then they in turn hide it for you.

Interesting concept, and not a bad idea.

In an apartment building my neighbor and I were OXY fiends for a while, and we'd leave each other pills in the handle of a fire extinguisher. When she was out, I'd leave a few for her and same for me. She'd call and ask for some, and if I wasn't going to be there, I'd just say "James Bond", and she knew where to look. It was fun.

Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: eleusis on August 06, 2012, 06:15 pm
There is some great info on deaddrops here but its hardly a new concept, it was used a lot by the operation julie crew!
Title: Re: New method of buying: via LOCAL stash in your city! (deathdropping)
Post by: d29sps3mj9sl on August 09, 2012, 05:31 am
I think this would be a very good idea if done properly.  I would to the caching with maps.   Pick some reasonable area of the city and divide the map into zones, such as a large tesselated pattern, and each zone is assigned two numbers at random.  One is chosen by the dealer, the other by the buyer.  That way neither has control over the ultimate location.  I assume we are talking about something the size of a film canister or something.  And ideally it would be disguised as a double a battery or a C cell battery that has been run over by a car or something else that is innocuous yet almost no one else will pick up.  Maybe an old dirty juice box for instance. 

Make it so no matter which numbers each party picks, there are hundreds of options for the other party, far to many to set up surviellance at.   Thus as long as one party is not an informant/fed, survielling the sites becomes highly uneconomical.

The first dealer to try this will probably  make good money off it...