Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: roygbiv on March 07, 2012, 08:17 pm
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I know the lulzsec guy was a douche, and ddos attacks lame, but the arrests are troublesome. What more proof do you need that the government is getting better at sleuthing? Furthermore, what more proof do you need that you are expendable and will be sold out when others are facing prison? I suppose the latter is nothing new. Ratting out is human nature.
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The dude made a rookie mistake. So the gov is not getting better, they are doing same ol shit. Catch one dude and squeeze his friends outta him.
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Not only that, these were VERY high value targets in the eyes of law enforcement. They'd happily ignore a thousand drug dealers to bust up a high profile hacking ring that has been constantly waving their dicks in the faces of law enforcement for quite some time.
But yeah, while their electronic surveillance was more sophisticated this time, this is still a bust that relied on an enormous amount of human intelligence from an informant. Take that away and this never happens.
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You ppl have an ABSURD amount of cognitive dissonance.
LE engaged in TOR correlation attacks against the target. Yeah they were 'high value' but so is so SR. LE is not gonna ignore 'drug dealers' ... and if you believe they will, my buddy has a bridge at Brooklyn to sell you.
Many people on here seem to rely on cognitive dissonance to help themselves sleep at night. Personally, I prefer xanax
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You ppl have an ABSURD amount of cognitive dissonance.
LE engaged in TOR correlation attacks against the target. Yeah they were 'high value' but so is so SR. LE is not gonna ignore 'drug dealers' ... and if you believe they will, my buddy has a bridge at Brooklyn to sell you.
Many people on here seem to rely on cognitive dissonance to help themselves sleep at night. Personally, I prefer xanax
I agree with your general point, but it's also true that we don't have as much of a media presence as Anonymous & Lulzsec.
Anyway, there is one critical difference between us and Lulzsec.
- We have capital. In the future we will have a lot of capital. Right now we're like the hairline crack in the dyke, but we have the weight of the world on the other side. Can you sense it? The DEA can, they've been having nightmares about 'precedent' ever since.
That makes all the difference in the world. We can keep going for the rest of our lives since it's in our direct self interest to, whereas Lulzsec was more of a fad, it was primarily dependent on the boundless energies of barely post-pubescent male mammals. Naive hunters! Morally flexible too, they turn on a dime. Sabu's ideology was extremely confused and internally inconsistent. But very exuberant about it all. The Silk Road is as ideologically driven as Anonymous, when DPR says we are revolutionaries he's not kidding, we want a new world too, we're just not using direct means to achieve it.
Anonymous's propaganda is their main weapon, which is precisely why the FBI decided to use a psychological operation attack. It all seems very impressive at the time, but in the end manipulating capital is the tool that produces permanent change.
Similarly, expect the DEA to attack our sources of finance through Bitcoin. They know that a dozen more Silk Roads can exist, but shutting down the source of exchange could have a lasting effect. However, they also know such an attack could rebound in their faces, which is why they are going to go for a Total Attack at some point. They'll put the hammer to all banks, exchanges, moneypaks, ukcash, you name it. That and a psychological operation attack simultaneously. They need to create a destructive narrative, I'm sure their industrial psychologists are working on some appealing scenarios as we type.
But in the end, they are doomed to fail, like I keep saying, in our economy, there is a perfect relationship between supply and demand. All buyers want some form of virtual currency and all sellers want cash. A perfect 1 to 1 mapping. Videogame currencies, mobile phone credit, the e-golds of the world, any of them can be used to implement.
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well said pine.
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Anyone read on how he got caught? Firstly someone (another hacker) started circulating rumours that this so called head of lulzsec was a IT technician from NY, then secondly he signed into a hackers chat room under his alias accidently without protecting himself it said in the paper.
The rest is pretty easy, help us close down the group or your going to jail for a long time, this guy dosent really know these people in person, hes going to rat. Thats how the rest got caught.
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You ppl have an ABSURD amount of cognitive dissonance.
I find that most people who use that term don't understand its meaning, and this is a clear example of misuse. You may think I'm wrong, you may think I'm delusional, but I'm not suffering from contradicting cognitions.
LE engaged in TOR correlation attacks against the target.
Yes, when they already knew who the target was, they confirmed it by correlating hit TOR traffic. That is a HUGE leap away from examining TOR traffic and determining that Joe Homeboy in San Fran is dealing drugs on the Silk Road. To wave your hands and try to pretend otherwise is to be disingenuous.
Yeah they were 'high value' but so is so SR.
SR is not committing public acts of aggression, flaunting those acts publicly in the face of law enforcement, bragging about them to the media, going after the military-industrial complex, etc. SR is merely a marketplace, one that exists on many levels throughout the world, with or without SR. Lulzsec was a destructive force bent on promoting agenda through overt criminal attacks.
They are NO WHERE NEAR each other in terms of priorities.
LE is not gonna ignore 'drug dealers' ... and if you believe they will, my buddy has a bridge at Brooklyn to sell you.
Of course they aren't, you're taking what I said out of context. My point remains: the FBI would happily ignore a thousand drug dealers if it meant busting a high profile hacking ring. That is not equivalent to saying "LE is gonna ignore drug dealers" as you suggest.
Many people on here seem to rely on cognitive dissonance to help themselves sleep at night. Personally, I prefer xanax
Do us a favor and educate yourself before you start using big words.
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Similarly, expect the DEA to attack our sources of finance through Bitcoin. They know that a dozen more Silk Roads can exist, but shutting down the source of exchange could have a lasting effect. However, they also know such an attack could rebound in their faces, which is why they are going to go for a Total Attack at some point. They'll put the hammer to all banks, exchanges, moneypaks, ukcash, you name it. That and a psychological operation attack simultaneously. They need to create a destructive narrative, I'm sure their industrial psychologists are working on some appealing scenarios as we type.
Now we're talking about something much more probable, in my mind.
This is in fact what I've been saying since last June: The Silk Road, and the inevitable future offshoots from it, will lead to the US cracking down on the use of alternate forms of currency. If you can't exchange USD for bitcoins legally, this whole situation collapses on its head without the enormous, arduous task of trying to play whack-a-mole with all of the participants.
Perhaps that will not be the end; plenty of counter arguments. However, the point is, I think this is the most likely avenue of attack that we would see from the US Government. Not attacks on TOR. Not LEO posing as vendors so they can bust buyers. They know that is a huge waste of time that will only serve to make the problem worse. The only way to truly deal with this is to try to close pandoras box and eliminate the ability for your average citizen to acquire pseudonymous crypto currency. Can they do that? Do they have the political will?
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Anyone read on how he got caught? Firstly someone (another hacker) started circulating rumours that this so called head of lulzsec was a IT technician from NY, then secondly he signed into a hackers chat room under his alias accidently without protecting himself it said in the paper.
The rest is pretty easy, help us close down the group or your going to jail for a long time, this guy dosent really know these people in person, hes going to rat. Thats how the rest got caught.
I heard he didnt mask his ip one time. and thats all it takes.
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It is cognitive dissonance to realize that LE arrest personal use buyers IRL via undercover operations while simultaneously thinking that LE will not arrest personal use buyers on SR via undercover operations
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I'm not aware of the FBI doing undercover operations IRL to bust personal use buyers. Links?
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the fbi has run a sting operation before where they set up a drug market like sr and then harvested addresses which didn't use gpg, those people got visits. it was called "drug zone forum"
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I've read about the DZF situation.
As I understand it, they went after low hanging fruit, and even then, how many end users were arrested?
Look, it would be very easy. All the FBI would have to do is bust one of the vendors on here through some other means, find all of our mailing addresses on their computer, and then the knock on the door would come.
I'm not saying that won't happen. What I'm saying is, the FBI has bigger priorities. They will invest considerable resources for high value targets such as lulzsec. They will not invest considerable resources for low value target like purchasers of personal amounts of controlled substances.
That is my claim, and that is where you would have to find some sort of cognitive dissonance. Otherwise, you're just reading into my words.
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I think there were valid points to most of those posts. Should we not take into consideration how the laws seem to be changing quicker than one can keep up ( at least for a commoner such as myself)? for instance "entrapment" That one seems to be a joke? most all the terrorism cases in the last 10 years have been just that. Once your busted and have to get a lawyer and what not, your pretty much already fucked by then it seems to me. I do agree that if you give them a chance they will take it? I hate snitches just on a side note! and we need some push back anyway. don't be so quick to to bad mouth Anonymous. I kinda like that there out there monkey wrenching the system. if not them then who?
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I've read about the DZF situation.
As I understand it, they went after low hanging fruit, and even then, how many end users were arrested?
Look, it would be very easy. All the FBI would have to do is bust one of the vendors on here through some other means, find all of our mailing addresses on their computer, and then the knock on the door would come.
I'm not saying that won't happen. What I'm saying is, the FBI has bigger priorities. They will invest considerable resources for high value targets such as lulzsec. They will not invest considerable resources for low value target like purchasers of personal amounts of controlled substances.
That is my claim, and that is where you would have to find some sort of cognitive dissonance. Otherwise, you're just reading into my words.
FBI might not but ICE and DEA and USPI might.
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I'm not aware of the FBI doing undercover operations IRL to bust personal use buyers. Links?
Here's a great one.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/cert/08-192
tl;dr FBI does substantial undercover op to bust a guy for less than 1g of personal cocaine. Even tried to hit him with a second felony because he used a cellphone to to set up the deal, which the prosecution argued was its own offense under a different statute. Made it all the way to the Supreme Court, luckily they rejected the cellphone+drugs=felony charge.
!!!The case is worth reading just to see how the government may respond in the future to 'criminal' use of technology!!!
The Supreme Court is being asked to interpret the terms of the Controlled Substances Act ("CSA"), written by Congress as part of the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970. Section 843(b), the section at the center of the controversy, states that it is "unlawful for any person knowingly or intentionally to use any communication facility in committing or in causing or facilitating the commission of any [drug crime prohibited by the CSA]." Amici in favor of Abuelhawa claim that Congress did not mean for this language to ensnare the buyers of illegal drugs for personal use, but instead intended to increase the penalties for drug dealers. Amici's argument is that Congress wanted drug dealers who tried to increase their productivity by using technology to face harsher penalties, but not necessarily drug users. The United States, on the other hand, feels the statute should be interpreted to include drug buyers as well as drug dealers, because possession of drugs for personal use is not always a misdemeanor, and Congress wanted the penalty to be increased for any person that uses technology to enhance the likelihood of a successful drug deal. Quoting the Fourth Circuit, the United States argues that "communication facilities makes it easier for criminals to engage in their skullduggery, and Congress may reasonably have desired to increase criminal penalties for those who use such means to evade detection by law enforcement."
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Heh, if my name was Salman Khade Abuelhawa and I was buying drugs from a dealer named Mohammed Said, I probably wouldn't talk about it with him on the phone.
That said, thanks for the link. Definitely some food for thought. Fortunately, the SCOTUS overturned that bullshit. Felony my ass.
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local police agencies do reverse stings all the time.
http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2011/05/46_arrested_in_two-day_reverse.html
don't think that local police agencies wont target SR, or that intelligence from feds will not be spread to local agencies. That is sort of the point of fusion centers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_center
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eww that wikipedia article was horribly written
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_Crime_Drug_Enforcement_Task_Force
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Uggg yes fusions centers! Its a "Brave New World"
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This is most likely a supremely ignorant question, but, regardless of the implications found on your PC, what can happen to you if they find no illegal substances or objects in your residence or on your person?
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Guess it would depend on what evidence they have on you, and say goodbye to your computers and what ever they want to confiscate from your home, after they trash it, and freak out you neighbors, and make you landlord think twice when the lease comes up. And it sounds like your going to court over what they find on your computer?and if your me you can't afford a rel lawyer( no offense to public defenders) God bless them! And then if you get off ? If your lucky you can put your life back together, and explain to your peers it was all just a big mistake. All because you want to use a controlled substance in your own home to your own body! shame on you for not wanting to be one of their robots! Must Control The masses!
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This is most likely a supremely ignorant question, but, regardless of the implications found on your PC, what can happen to you if they find no illegal substances or objects in your residence or on your person?
NB: I'm not an attorney. I just read stuff and I don't care to have my due process violated. So maybe an attorney type will come discuss and give you a real answer.
My understanding is that, depending on what is found or what traces are found, there is the potential for charges of conspiracy, intent, fraud, collusion/racketeering (I always get tangled up in those two, the definition, I mean). It's relatively difficult to prove that you committed a crime - but it's not as difficult to show that you were conspiring based on what's on the computer, perhaps.
If you then inadequately delete your tracks, you get into obstruction (and felony obs of justice is a nastier charge than a misdemeanor 'unauthorized use of a computer or access device.') I think it was US v Hicks; this was a Big Thing last year. The alleged etc. had a hard drive with suspected CP on it, destroyed it, and was then charged with obstructing under the Sarbanes-Oxley act. What?
Hurray for search engines:
Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States or any case filed under title 11, or in relation to or contemplation of any such matter or case, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.
I continue to be confused as to how you are supposed to tell the difference between "going to a straight path and wiping the drive" and "knowingly altering, destroying," etc. (I probably need to go read a lot more on Sarbanes-Oxley as it has major implications.)
The reason this case was a Big Thing was because it was NOT solely related to financial crimes.
Here's where it gets creepier to me:
http://www.cybercrimereview.com/2012/01/6th-circuit-affirms-conviction-under.html
The distinction with these cases is that they specifically knew an investigation was in progress. Kernell, on the other hand, only suspected that a federal investigation would soon begin.
I guess this means that we should leave an online trail which states our complete confidence that there will be no investigation and describing our newfound commitment to not being around drugs or even strong coffee.
If the communications are attached to someone who's somehow involved in something deemed terroristic, which is a loose term these days, I would imagine the list of charges expand.
As far as the whole exciting array of things that -can- happen to you at that point, I'll defer that to wiser and more experienced people. YMMV.
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i suspect very few people really know the extent of LE work on this unless they are actually involved.
however i do not doubt that if you are worth it, they will probably get you - eventually - its just the resources required would make targeting any old hash/coke/pill head a bit of a waste of time and money when theres Anonymous folk hacking fbi, others plotting 'acts of terror' not even to mention the CP.
however stopping btc has to be a real possibility.
if they can ban internet poker....
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Internet poker and Edollars claimed to be backed by gold. FTC can't legally form an opinion on bitcoin... as far as i know
ggg
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...The Silk Road is as ideologically driven as Anonymous, when DPR says we are revolutionaries he's not kidding, we want a new world too, we're just not using direct means to achieve it.
While theorizing in a haze of bong smoke, that might seem to be the case. From another perspective, SR might seem more like a regression or an atavism. There is nothing new about a dictatorship or cult-like devotion to a charismatic leader. The goal is to make money. The well-being of people is not even secondary. People will be hurt. This is a hit-and-run operation not some grand new institution of freedom and happiness - those feelings probably have more to do with the drugs and the excitement of doing something taboo.
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OMG, it's like you read my mind. I, myself, find the pixels far beyond charismatic. I keep getting all flushed and breathless. It's like being in the presence of a young [redacted for an attempt at anonymity, insert idol name here].
Wait, that would be the drugs. Wait, no, it's just me. Huh. [no interwebs while intoxicated, house rule]
While theorizing in a reserpine-induced haze, it might be an idea to consider that the world is a diverse place and that the set SR of people who are online includes people who identify as {vendors, ideologues, casual users, dependent users, scammers, the terminally bored, LE pro, LE con, observers/researchers/writers/students, security/privacy aficionados, BTC investors, psychopharmacologists, cat owners, people who want start vending shipping product, defense attorneys, trolls, whatEVER}.
People can identify with a lot of these groups at once. I don't see most of the above as being mutually exclusive. In fact, I don't see your post and Pine's as being mutually exclusive.
There's nothing wrong with making money as a goal, last I checked, but, your gaggle of strawmen aside ("grand new institution" - wtff, is there a building campaign on here somewhere?), why is it incompatible with ideology? I think I can say safely that I've combined 1) supporting myself and 2) working towards specific social goals and change.
I agree that the odds that people will be hurt are high. They're also high when people ride in cars or take ibuprofen or become romantically involved. I'm thinking most people on here have metaphorically read the back of the ticket. It would be so awesome if you would clarify your statement, because I'm missing something.
Also, if you could outline how this is a regression or atavism, I would appreciate it. I'm a little dim today. I'm not following the train of thought there. Thanks for your patience.
--f.
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What about dog owners? :)
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What about dog owners? :)
You think it won't throw LE off and confuse them into thinking this is a cat fancier board if I just mention cats, huh? OK, consider it invisibly amended to imply a diverse array of critter ownership.
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...The Silk Road is as ideologically driven as Anonymous, when DPR says we are revolutionaries he's not kidding, we want a new world too, we're just not using direct means to achieve it.
While theorizing in a haze of bong smoke, that might seem to be the case. From another perspective, SR might seem more like a regression or an atavism. There is nothing new about a dictatorship or cult-like devotion to a charismatic leader. The goal is to make money. The well-being of people is not even secondary. People will be hurt. This is a hit-and-run operation not some grand new institution of freedom and happiness - those feelings probably have more to do with the drugs and the excitement of doing something taboo.
The scene has no leaders, dread pirate roberts merely operates this mix / communication server and has implemented a system that allows him to be paid for providing it to us. I am sure you are aware that when the hyrda has a head cut off, more grow back in place of it? Why do you seem so fixated on the current network topology of scene communications servers (and administrators), and not the massive social all channel network that the scene in itself is? It will only take an advancement in utilized communications technology for the two to become one and the same.
The goal is to have a free market, which has the direct effect of creating wealth. We celebrate both. The well being of people is the responsibility of individuals. Anyway, even the DEA doesn't care about the well being of people from drugs, when is the last time a cigarette company was raided? How many DEA agents smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol, lol. Such an ironic group of people, their cognitive dissonance is either clinically significant or they are evil Nazis (perhaps both, after all most Nazis indeed thought that the extermination of the Jews was the morally correct thing to do).
Websites like Silk Road can increase safety in many ways. And the safety of individuals from themselves is the sole responsibility of the individuals themselves.
Drug forum scene has been going stronger and stronger for over a decade. SR may be hit an run operation, but I am pretty sure that SR is a communications server. The network that uses it is inherently an institution of freedom. And it seems to me to be growing substantially more powerful and harder to kill (in reach, total amounts moved, technical security, etc)...............in fact it has taken to operating entirely in the open, and thus far the federal police of the most powerful country in the world seem incapable of stopping it, or the broader cryptoanarchist revolution that it is merely a small part of.
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...The Silk Road is as ideologically driven as Anonymous, when DPR says we are revolutionaries he's not kidding, we want a new world too, we're just not using direct means to achieve it.
While theorizing in a haze of bong smoke, that might seem to be the case. From another perspective, SR might seem more like a regression or an atavism. There is nothing new about a dictatorship or cult-like devotion to a charismatic leader. The goal is to make money. The well-being of people is not even secondary. People will be hurt. This is a hit-and-run operation not some grand new institution of freedom and happiness - those feelings probably have more to do with the drugs and the excitement of doing something taboo.
The scene has no leaders, dread pirate roberts merely operates this mix / communication server and has implemented a system that allows him to be paid for providing it to us. I am sure you are aware that when the hyrda has a head cut off, more grow back in place of it? Why do you seem so fixated on the current network topology of scene communications servers (and administrators), and not the massive social all channel network that the scene in itself is? It will only take an advancement in utilized communications technology for the two to become one and the same.
The goal is to have a free market, which has the direct effect of creating wealth. We celebrate both. The well being of people is the responsibility of individuals. Anyway, even the DEA doesn't care about the well being of people from drugs, when is the last time a cigarette company was raided? How many DEA agents smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol, lol. Such an ironic group of people, their cognitive dissonance is either clinically significant or they are evil Nazis (perhaps both, after all most Nazis indeed thought that the extermination of the Jews was the morally correct thing to do).
Websites like Silk Road can increase safety in many ways. And the safety of individuals from themselves is the sole responsibility of the individuals themselves.
Drug forum scene has been going stronger and stronger for over a decade. SR may be hit an run operation, but I am pretty sure that SR is a communications server. The network that uses it is inherently an institution of freedom. And it seems to me to be growing substantially more powerful and harder to kill (in reach, total amounts moved, technical security, etc)...............in fact it has taken to operating entirely in the open, and thus far the federal police of the most powerful country in the world seem incapable of stopping it, or the broader cryptoanarchist revolution that it is merely a small part of.
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When looking at the two occurrences (Sabu's apprehension and SR's life) I think its important to remember the scopes in which these subject fall. They are independent. And within the eye of US law, both are handled by very different agencies. The DEA and the FBI have different priorities and incompatible methods for dealing with these priorities. The concept of illicit drug purchases (amongst other contraband) through electronic means is a foreign concept to the masses, most will not understand the concept of TOR for many years. And the cessation of these illegal activities is a foreign area for most law enforcement. Lastly I would add, attention towards SR will be hard pressed. Most drug amounts sent out would fall under the attention of a local police force, which doubtfully has tech capabilities to track down any of these people. In most cases the local pushers themselves would be higher priority.
P.S. - The opinions I hold reflect current affairs, I doubt things will be same in 5 years. Who knows, perhaps by then a Cyber-Narcotics division will have developed.
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Interpol already has a cyber narcotics division, but they primarily manage international operations against online pharmacies that pull in millions of dollars and compete with the pharmaceutical industry by disregarding intellectual property laws and FDA regulations. They generally are a major source of botnet funding / activity too, considering the massive amounts of spam they are behind.
The FBI has done some major international operations against for profit CP sites, that are similar to adult porn sites but charge a membership fee. Reading about the security of these sites is always fun, they tend to use pretty shitty tactics but some are mildly impressive. The last really interesting one I read about used reverse proxies and money mule networks but the operators still were located and pwnt, I think they pulled in a few million in membership fees. When LE pwns one of these sites they tend to first covertly pwn the operators and then they gather customer intelligence for a period of months, followed by a massive internationally (usually interpol/europol) coordinated raid that pull in thousands or tens of thousands of buyers simultaneously. In the grand scheme of things the people using these sites almost never are pwnt with much CP compared to the trade groups, and they very rarely are part of distribution, but it doesn't stop LE from arresting them even if they bought a single picture.
I guess it might not be a perfect analogy since CP is CP and drugs are drugs, but in for profit CP cases they do indeed carry out massive international operations that target even small time personal use customers. Part of me recognizes the difference between the two things, and part of me recognizes that mirror imaging is a common mistake in intelligence analysis, and that DEA agents may very well have a mentality that drug dealers and users are no better than CP purchasers. In my mind I can see a clear moral distinction, but it is probably not good to assume that the moral compass of the average DEA agent will mirror mine. Not to mention it is usually FBI pwning these CP sites and DEA has the *job* of pwning sites like SR, why should I think they will carry out their job to a lesser extent than the FBI carries out theirs?
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So wouldn't Interpol only be interested in clearnet Online pharmacy ops, rather than darknet ops dealing primarily in personal amounts. Speaking from a US point as well.
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protecting human dignity through providing safe use of high quality items is a good thing
ggg