Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: thirdeye90 on March 06, 2012, 06:19 am
-
I've read a couple of post about people trying to develop these devices and other similar devices. I thought of the idea awhile ago also, but I'm not tech savvy enough to do so. Putting GPS trackers in packages can also be helpful, but being able to determine whether the package has been opened or not is obviously a foolproof way to avoid detection. I'd be more than happy to invest or just straight donate money into any products or research related to this.
-
itd be cool aswell if leo could easily track where the package came from too right
-
I think Interception Detection Chips are the kind of app that makes vendors want to go:
"STFU and take my damn money" :D
I tried throwing my money at the screen, but then I realized they only take B$
-
i've also made it clear i know a few good souls who would also be very willing to donate to such a cause. ;)
it would be nice if we could perhaps make this thread a place to post any ongoing advancements in this field and to discuss such concepts here on SR...?
but it's really seems at this point more a matter of, all those obviously much more knowledgable in the details of RFID technonolgy, ect, to perfect the concept. i am more than capable of commenting on concepts, ect. and more than likely capable of assembling such a concept. especially if the blueprints were to be released openly online..
i've also expressed concern's about the technology potentially being turned against us. but i feel there various ways to potentially circumvent this possibilty, as alwayz... ;)
peace
-
West and Pine honestly what's the need for the smart ass comments? I'm not even going to make a smart comment back, but get over the jealousy issues that I have enough money to put stuff like this into ... and who ever said I'm a vendor? Your both obviously oblivious to the fact that this is could be one of the most beneficial technologies in transporting contraband through the mail
-
These chips would cost so much as to be economically impractical for anything except major orders.
-
.... get over the jealousy issues that I have enough money to put stuff like this ....
::)
-
West and Pine honestly what's the need for the smart ass comments? I'm not even going to make a smart comment back, but get over the jealousy issues that I have enough money to put stuff like this into ... and who ever said I'm a vendor? Your both obviously oblivious to the fact that this is could be one of the most beneficial technologies in transporting contraband through the mail
You completely misinterpreted my comment.
-
an estimated $10-12 is what i've heard. that doesn't seem like an unreasonable projected cost, imo....for a wide variety of interested parties...
-
an estimated $10-12 is what i've heard. that doesn't seem like an unreasonable projected cost, imo....for a wide variety of interested parties...
Exactly, and if you were able to go to mass production and bring it down to $1, we'd be throwing one into every pack even if it were only 0.25g of opiates. Consumer confidence and so on.
-
of course. but how would anyone in this community know how to securely find legit sources to manufacture such a product at such cheap prices in an obscure, third-world country like like china? :P
</sarcasm>
-
I'd be willing to pay up to $500 for one. If its possible to make one for $10- $12 they'd be nice for international orders on SR. As far as small domestic orders on SR I don't have much of a desire for it. If your friends with your supplier you could just mail the detection device to them and get them to put it in the package and so forth.Th If anybody thinks they can pull this off please pm me
-
I'm not talking about using this for purchases off of SR. There's not a lot of reason considering the fact that almost all orders go through undetected. The ones that do occasionally get seized are almost always international, and the chips would be nice in these cases if they're around $10. Please let me know if anybody has the means to make a high quality interception detection device
-
right now the intention of those who seem most knowlegable and interested in developing the technology seem 2B leaning towards releasing the tek openly online. it would be up to you to build. for an estimated $10-12. with the potential of adding the ability to connect to a cell network or whatever at an additional cost.
tho im sure if it became so openly available some would jump on the idea of building, and selling them, to the community...
-
Ok, well unfortunatley I doubt you could get one made to the point where it's going to be in the $10 range.
You could easily build yourself one using a arduino board (basically a cheap mini computer on one little board), with a gps addon, however what everyone missed is how you actually remotely retrive the data.
If you want just a straight up gps logger, I imagine you could easily find one on ebay. But if you want something to track it, your going to need a data connection. So in this case you will have to get a sim card. And if your shipping international offers, it's going to be pretty pointless since your sim card won't work overseas once it's sent.
For a gps tracker, I don't think you would get a very good signal while it's packed up in some plane with all the noise and the fact that the gps radio waves won't be able to penetrate into a plane. You would need a big ass ariel, which is going to make the unit more bulky and probably more expensive.
Another issue is the battery. Sure a 9v battery would work alright, but that's just going to add to the weight if your only sending a little package. Retriving GPS and Cellular data uses a fair amount of power. Even if you are just sending the GPS coodarnites once every hour or so, a small hearing aid battery, even a AA battery would only last a couple of days max before it runs flat.
On the plus side, it wouldn't be hard to integrate a light sensor to a arduino chip and have it log every time the package is opened so you could tell if customs opened it or not but of course if you actually get the package, your going to notice a big bit of tape on the package to seal it up, so thats kinda pointless as well.
-
I would look more into these: http://www.tagsense.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=165:zt-500-mini&catid=51:active-tags&Itemid=119
there are really small active RFID tags that can broadcast hundreds of feet away. Some I have seen even have programmable memory, ability to attach sensors, etc. I would think something like that as the base with sensors attached to it is the way to go. Can't find a price for these right now but I have looked into them before and I think they were pretty cheap actually.
The point is that if you detect an interception you don't go in to get the pack. These chips are essentially worthless for people who have product shipped right to them, they are for people who use fake ID boxes so they can check for interception prior to even going inside the store. Active RFID claims that it can broadcast several hundred feet through doors and walls, so you would just need to go near the box and use an RFID scanner to try and pick up the signal. Being able to check the packs status with a cell phone would be a nice touch but it might make it infeasible, or at least more difficult.
There seem to be mini battery powered WiFi chips too that could be used, the key difference being that they broadcast with WiFi instead of RFID.
-
itd be cool aswell if leo could easily track where the package came from too right
The technology and algorithms available to us are so strong that we can minimize this risk almost to the point of elimination.
an estimated $10-12 is what i've heard. that doesn't seem like an unreasonable projected cost, imo....for a wide variety of interested parties...
Well it would cost around $10 to fabricate (less if the chip is smaller). My idea was to release two files, one of the PCB and one on how to actually build the thing. You'd fire off the PCB file to a fabricator, the one I use does flat-fee $30 fabs and you can put multiple copies of a single chip on one PCB to save money. (You'll also need inert traces to confuse their design auditor and need to be handy with a jigsaw but oh well.) For parts I'm shooting for $20 or so. Then there's the investment vendors will need to make into supplies but soldering irons/solder/flux/etc. don't cost that much. The bigger investments that are you and your customer will both need RF guns.
tho im sure if it became so openly available some would jump on the idea of building, and selling them, to the community...
Well hopefully nobody would buy something somebody else made. :/
You could easily build yourself one using a arduino board
Arduino is overkill imho (and it's a toy anyway). I was thinking more along the lines of something like the Microchip PIC16F676, which has a 5 MIPS CPU, 64b RAM, 128b EEPROM, two timers and some other useful stuff. It runs around a dollar and draws ~300 nA of current per 2 V iirc so there goes our cost and power problems (CR2032 ftw).
-
Plus the device can be reused. If you don't have a trust relationship with your source they wont want you to send them back so they will probably let you keep it yourself but make you pay extra for the added security. But there are some people with connects overseas who regularly import <-> send money back in both directions, and then you would only need a single device and send it back and forth with drugs/money until one of the packs is intercepted.
If these things are heavily tested prior to being used for actual illegal packs (as they should be!) and there are no problems detected it would make importation of bulk so much more secure. I would feel totally safe having multi kilo orders of MDMA sent to me if I knew close to 100% for sure that I would be able to tell if it was intercepted. Only issue is what if they don't open the pack until they arrest you picking it up? Would be a major change to their standard operating procedure though. They can verify the substances inside the pack without a dog hitting on it via use of terahertz radiation and such, but on the other hand there is potentially nothing stopping us from being able to detect if a pack is scanned with this sort of technology too.
-
Talked with a highly security competent friend about this and here is what he had to say:
'CCD sensor, GSM, GPS, Arduino nano. end.'
he also mentioned that
'CCD could be triggered by both being opened, but also by xray etc.'
He also pointed out that several sophisticated smuggling organizations are already using various sorts of technological interception detection devices, and have been doing so for quite some time.
-
however what everyone missed is how you actually remotely retrive the data.
From what I heard, the idea is that the chip broadcasts a dynamic timestamp. As soon as the LDR is exposed to light, the chip begins broadcasting something completely different. The idea is that if your package were to be opened, and the goods confirmed as contraband, the police may seal it up and attempt a controlled delivery. When you go to pick it up, you point your whatever gun at it, and read what it's sending out. If the message indicates it's been compromised, you tell them it's not yours and won't accept it. Walk out, with no crime commited.
-
I still think the best idea is to use a seed and a PRNG. The full output the PRNG will produce over infinite time can be entirely determined by anyone who has the secret seed, but without the secret seed the output appears to be randomness. Of course the seed is wiped if any of the sensors are triggered.
-
he also mentioned that
'CCD could be triggered by both being opened, but also by xray etc.'
isn't this a major problem? if a package wree to just get rountinely x-rayed, but not pulled aside? the device still gets triggered giving a false positive?
or am i missing something?
@QTC "The bigger investments that are you and your customer will both need RF guns."
got a link to such a thing? i'll look into what they are, but how much might they run then? and you're saying each separate source would need one in order to ship then?
-
he also mentioned that
'CCD could be triggered by both being opened, but also by xray etc.'
isn't this a major problem? if a package wree to just get rountinely x-rayed, but not pulled aside? the device still gets triggered giving a false positive?
No it is good because the same sensor can detect and differentiate between light hitting it and X-rays (and possibly other things) hitting it.
-
'CCD sensor, GSM, GPS, Arduino nano. end.'
he also mentioned that
'CCD could be triggered by both being opened, but also by xray etc.'
arduino nano is still overkill... I will have to look into CCD but GSM + GPS would eat up a lot of power, I will look into that too though. btw did you see my post on the other thread about measuring resistance? what are your thoughts on that?
@QTC "The bigger investments that are you and your customer will both need RF guns."
got a link to such a thing? i'll look into what they are, but how much might they run then? and you're saying each separate source would need one in order to ship then?
I have been thinking about this and have to look into something else possibly. The reason is that when programming the device the vendor will need some expensive toys to program the device. The person getting the pack would need something like this: http://www.tagmaster.com/filearchive/2/2969/LR6XL_product_sheet_09_140_03.pdf
-
I have been thinking about this and have to look into something else possibly. The reason is that when programming the device the vendor will need some expensive toys to program the device. The person getting the pack would need something like this: http://www.tagmaster.com/filearchive/2/2969/LR6XL_product_sheet_09_140_03.pdf
so a source would literally need to have one in their possesion the last second before closing the package? no chance they could be pre-programmed and sent out ahead of time perhaps? a even "ready-to-go" box if need be? just don't know the specifics behind this part is all..any thoughtz?
-
Greetings, I was intrigued by this thread and had a few questions and comments:
1. RFIDs would only notify you of interception once it's being delivered (RFIDs alone cannot call home) so If someone in the USA were receiving a package of a few kilos of cocaine during a controlled delivery, he whipped out a RFID scanner, read the field that said it had been opened and then refused to accept the package from LE would that prevent a search? Would that prevent any charges or arrest? Any LE or lawyers care to comment?
2. The first time that happens and the postal inspectors / FBI realize they've been had, you can damn well bet they're going to be looking for those RFID chips in the future and if they know opening them sets them off they can just stick a tiny needle in to get a microscopic sample for a mass spectrometer or some other analyzyer, that's all it would take to confirm contents and get a warrant. RFID may be small but both the chip and it's traces will show up bright as day on any x-ray or terahertz imager (good x-ray imagers in particular can see beter resolution than my eyes) ... then what? could they also hit you up on conspiracy charges or some other BS?
3. Passive tags have a resonant front-end that they harvest energy from to power themselves and they modulate a load on that antenna to essentially backscatter a portion of the TX energy. The reader then looks for the AM signal of the backscatter. Even if the chip is "off" or dead so long as the antenna is connected to the front-end you can get non-modulated backscatter. Basically you could excite the oscillator of the antenna look for ringing in the ISM band. then you know it's there but in some sort of "quiet" state. If I were leading LE in taking down SR and some passive tag design widely used on SR I'd work to implement a program nationwide to monitor for RF signatures of packages at drop boxes to find those tags. Get as much surveillance as possible and try to bring down SELLERS instead of buyers... I may be far overestimating the capabilities and dedication of the postal inspectors and LE though.
4. Active tags have better range, and more options for communication, data, etc, but still are much much larger, easier to detect, require batteries, and like any RFID they can be detected in the off state (but the 802.11 and bluetooth front-ends would look much like computers or phones that are turned off, thus target discrimination would be more difficult). You won't find it easy to hide the active tag.
5. Why would anyone share this info?? It is obvious that if you are a seller, and you hire an engineer to create a tracking or interception detection system that works for you, it makes no sense to share. Why share? If you give it to others and they use it, get busted with it, then LE will start to look for that detection system and you're not under the radar anymore.
6. GSM/GPS boards with very low power ARM microcontrollers are readily available (mediatek makes some relatively cheap ones for those of you interested) these have GPIO on them and a reverse biased photo-diode on a GPIO line is more than sufficient to act as a light sensor indicating it's time to "call home". So you can put in a GSM card of the destination country and have it regularly text you updates regarding it's location, as well as have it text you when it sees light. The nice thing about some of these off the shelf options is that you don't have to fiddle with hardware much. So long as you can program you can make it do whatever you want. I think mediatek also makes cheap (<$40) phones dev boards with 2-sim slots if you wanna track in 2 countries. You cannot hide these though, even the smallest GSM/GPS combo is gonna be bigger than a fifty-cent piece. I had an old demo board that used a lithium cell phone battery. I think battery life was around 3-4 days if I remember right.
7. I mentioned that a reverse biased photodiode can act as a light sensor, this is pretty straightforward and can directly couple to any digital input or GPIO of any microelectronic or computer. The same technique can be used to make a simple binary X-ray detector. If you reverse bias a PIN photodiode and coat it in thick black paint or dip it in black epoxy, it will no longer respond to light, but it will output a very small current when exposed to X-rays. If you chose a low noise diode with a small dark current you can easily pick up x-rays (google on "dose rate sensor PIN photodiode") I'm not going to sit here and clog up the forum with designs that you can copy off of google patents, but I will mention that the input resistance of these GPIOs and digital inputs is in the 10s of K-ohm. The light sensor can drive this, the X-ray may not, so for the x-ray diode use a phototransistor or better yet feed the photo-current into a FET with a high input impedance.
8. LE's response to X-ray detector that calls home: If LE ever finds one of these, you can damn sure bet that they won't get fooled next time. The govt will likely bring in engineering consultants to review the design. The fatal flaw in an X-ray sensor is that it is dose rate dependent, So they could do a longer exposure with a lower dose rate, get the same total dose (same image) and not set off the dose rate detector. Or just start opening suspicious boxes in dark rooms, or rely more on dogs, or just jab a needle in and use a mass-spec or simply look for the EM signature of a powered up mediatek ARM processor.... Even if the radios are off the processor clock is going to make a lot of EM noise. Hell, if I was a postal inspector I'd require all X-ray areas to be shielded well enough that no cell phones can call home (like fancy shielded movie theaters)
9. Law enforcement guys, postal workers, Lawyers, judges, people who are in the know. Chime in, what would happen to me if I got a 5 lbs of heroin sent to me from overseas and refused delivery after I scanned the box? If people started using these to outsmart LE could additional charges be brought against them?
also, advocates of RFID I'm not trying to crap on your ideas here, in fact maybe you've already got designs and info I don't (not sharing due to item-5), Im just thowing out food for thought.
sellers, how much would you pay for a GSM/GPS tracker with light sensor that texts status info to your phone so you can help protect buyers from a controlled delivery?