Silk Road forums
Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: John Keats on February 24, 2012, 03:53 pm
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A group within Occupy Wall Street named the "99% Declaration Working Group" has announced that they will be holding a convention composed of 870 elected delegates (one man and one woman from each congressional district) in Philadelphia on July 4th. The delegates will draft and ratify a "petition for a redress of grievances" (1).
However, several prominent Occupy Movement leaders and organizers do not support this event. They are concerned that it is a "representative model of government, as opposed to the consensus model that has characterized the Occupy movement from the beginning" (2). When the group's plans were brought to the General Assembly of Occupy Philly, their ideas were met with disapproval. "Rumors circulated through multiple Occupy sites that Pollok (the DWG's spokesperson) wanted to create his own party; there was vague talk of a power grab" (2).
Now moving on to some informed criticism. I personally think this plan will NOT pan out. It is fundamentally not in line with what the Occupy Movement represents. This could be the beginning of individuals looking to finally organize the movement and set it in the right direction, or simply a power-grab, as mentioned above. One could even take it to an extreme, saying that this Philly convention is an attempt by the corporate world to finally end the Occupy Movement; the fact that the "99% Declaration Working Group" is basically unknown and sprouting from nowhere gives evidence to this claim. HOWEVER, I believe that this could be the next phase of the Occupy Movement in that people will change their mindset from "WE ARE THE 99%, HIP HIP HOORAH" to "WE ARE THE 99%, WE DO NOT GIVE YOU OUR CONSENT TO GOVERN".
For those relatively new to politics, or for those looking to expand their knowledge, I strongly recommend watching this video: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sNWbiAMf80). In it Judge Andrew Napolitano discusses what the Constitution was MEANT to embody, and he explores the principles of natural law. Hopefully the Occupy Movement will advance these ideas in their future demands.
I would love to have an intellectual debate with someone on this and what possible solutions to our grievances could be implemented. Just reply here or PM me an e-mail and we can chat. =)
Lastly, I'd like to leave you guys with a quote: "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK
Sources:
(1) http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/occupy_wall_street_will_elect_delegates_hold_july_convention_in_philly
(2) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/23/philadelphia-convention-occupy-rift-michael-pollok_n_1297859.html
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Good Read,
I tend to agree with the larger Occupy "brass" a representative sentiment has been used to affect change in a negative fashion for the masses under the guise of utilitarianism. We need to become wholly democratic. As much as that could be possible
ggg
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Democracy is evil
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In its purest form democracy means that if 51 out of 100 people want to kill all of the Jews, that all the Jews should be killed. I really don't understand people who are pro democracy, but I think they must be insane.
Of course I do understand the general reason why people are pro democracy. Democracy is generally in favor of socialism because the majority of people have less than the minority of rich people, and they would like very much to democratically vote to take that wealth and give it to themselves.
Republics are bad too. Elected officials will just be bought off by corporations or their own special interests.
There is no good form of government. Everyone should voluntarily invest in private defense agencies until they get strong enough to kill everyone who wants to force government onto others. Government has no legitimate purpose and at its very fundamental core it is based around the evil of stealing, euphemistically known as taxation. Taxation is the defining characteristic of all governments. Governments are also horribly inefficient with the "services" that they "provide" (paid for with money that they steal so is it really providing? If I point a gun at you, take your wallet, buy an apple from my friends apple stand, and give it to you, did I just provide you with a free apple?), they really exist for the sole purpose of expanding their bureaucracies creating hierarchial systems with the people on top gaining more and more power as the hierarchy gains depth. Of course they also exist to fund these hierarchies with stolen money, and to divert stolen money to various corporate friends who then help them launder it when it ends up in the account of individual politicians.
Government is a cancer on the world regardless of what form it takes. Complete anarcho-capitalism is the only moral system, and Agorism and cryptoanarchy are the strategies that will bring it to be.
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The Occupy Movement. It's as if you got the people who know the least about the system and then got them to make a giant game of Chinese Whispers or Telephone Game.
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Good Read,
I tend to agree with the larger Occupy "brass" a representative sentiment has been used to affect change in a negative fashion for the masses under the guise of utilitarianism. We need to become wholly democratic. As much as that could be possible
ggg
How about no. The majority of people are the cause of the majority of problems in society.
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In its purest form democracy means that if 51 out of 100 people want to kill all of the Jews, that all the Jews should be killed. I really don't understand people who are pro democracy, but I think they must be insane.
Yes, technically that is the definition of democracy, but the example is a little silly. Democracy only comes after NATURAL LAW, which protects us, as Madison so famously wrote, "from the Tyranny of the Majority." Unfortunately these rights have slowly been taken away (look up NDAA). Personally I think our country has been going downhill ever since we passed the god forsaken 17th amendment, effectively taking the power away from the states and giving it straight to the federal government. Thomas Jefferson wrote of how it is the state's duty to NULLIFY any law they deem unconstitutional, we've forgotten that the federal government derives its power from the states and not the other way around.
Government has no legitimate purpose and at its very fundamental core it is based around the evil of stealing, euphemistically known as taxation. Taxation is the defining characteristic of all governments. Governments are also horribly inefficient with the "services" that they "provide" (paid for with money that they steal so is it really providing?
It really depends on the type of tax. Property taxes are moral because the land you reside on or own is within the jurisdiction of your government and it receives certain services, most notably protection from foreign invaders. Income and inheritance taxes, however, are completely unjust and literally stealing. They basically claim that the government has higher authority over YOUR property, which is completely blasphemous to any property law professor/student.
Taxation, however, is not the defining characteristic of government... take a look at Saudi Arabia, a.k.a. a "rentier state". Because the government reels in so much revenue from its nationalized oil industry, it does not tax its citizens. Thus the classic maxim of "no taxation without representation" is turned on its head and Saudi leaders assert that their citizens do not get any rights because they do not pay any taxes. This creates a huge barrier to democracy and really the civil rights situation is 100 times worse in Saudi Arabia than it ever was in Iraq or Iran, but of course the United States just averts its gaze because we're really good friends with the oil shahs!
Branching off on your last point, I'd love to see an experiment in anarcho-capitalism, in which the state loses its monopoly on force and the services of security, justice, and other defense will be subject to competition, effectively making the prices cheaper and the quality higher. More on that concept here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_anarchism
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It really depends on the type of tax. Property taxes are moral because the land you reside on or own is within the jurisdiction of your government and it receives certain services, most notably protection from foreign invaders.
First of all, I do not recognize the legitimacy of any government or any of their claims to jurisdiction. Second of all, if I want to protect my property from foreign invaders I should just be able to voluntarily pay a fee to a private defense agency, instead of have the government force me to pay them to provide that service.
Taxation, however, is not the defining characteristic of government... take a look at Saudi Arabia, a.k.a. a "rentier state". Because the government reels in so much revenue from its nationalized oil industry, it does not tax its citizens. Thus the classic maxim of "no taxation without representation" is turned on its head and Saudi leaders assert that their citizens do not get any rights because they do not pay any taxes.
Okay I will concede that taxation is not what defines government, hmm need to think of something else that defines it. A monopoly on 'legitimate' violence I guess? This would mean government inherently has the ability to tax, but may not implement it.
Branching off on your last point, I'd love to see an experiment in anarcho-capitalism, in which the state loses its monopoly on force and the services of security, justice, and other defense will be subject to competition, effectively making the prices cheaper and the quality higher. More on that concept here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_anarchism
I would love to see an experiment in anarcho-capitalism too :).
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Good Read,
I tend to agree with the larger Occupy "brass" a representative sentiment has been used to affect change in a negative fashion for the masses under the guise of utilitarianism. We need to become wholly democratic. As much as that could be possible
ggg
How about no. The majority of people are the cause of the majority of problems in society.
Utility is the most equitable way to make these decisions, Harm is what must be reduced to the basest possible minimum.
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Great post Keats! Occupy is the only thing that gives me hope here in Amerika. I do not understand why anyone would play be the rules anymore? the system is rotten to the core. Only a Mass movement like an Arab Spring will jolt this country out of its ma laze. And honestly I don't see that happening. But that being said, my car sure stands out in my city:) 99% all the way. And now there beating the drums of war yet again? here is a quote for you.........In the face of this approaching disaster, it behooves men and women not yet overcome by war madness to raise their voice of protest, to call the attention of the people to the crime and outrage which are about to be perpetrated on them......Emma Goldman.......Peace....:L
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First of all, I do not recognize the legitimacy of any government or any of their claims to jurisdiction.
Hmm... that's a really interesting thought. I think I'll try and develop it next time I'm on shrooms.
Okay I will concede that taxation is not what defines government, hmm need to think of something else that defines it. A monopoly on 'legitimate' violence I guess? This would mean government inherently has the ability to tax, but may not implement it.
You're spot on, that's EXACTLY what defines government.
Only a Mass movement like an Arab Spring will jolt this country out of its ma laze.
*THIS IS IMPORTANT READ THIS.
Oh gosh, not the Arab Spring haha. Sorry to burst your bubble but... Egypt is worse off after the Arab Spring then it was before. It's difficult to understand this when literally all media outlets have been championing the cause and describing the great advances made in civil liberties but really its bad over there.
When Mubarak was in power, he compromised a little with pressure from the western world to allow NGOs (non-governmental organizations such as the red cross, religious groups, etc) to organize. Now Mubarak's resignation has been headlining everywhere but in case anyone hasn't noticed, SCAF (Supreme Council of the Armed Forces) has taken over, and they've taken away ALL compromise. If you thought Mubarak was bad, imagine a room full of 70/80 year old war-hawks who will do anything to retain their power. SCAF has eliminated all NGOs that they fear threaten their power.
Now Congress is trying to pass through legislation to cut off all funding to Egypt because its now a dictatorship (it was before too) that doesn't listen to them. However, this isn't as noble as it seems. Its actually a ploy by the Republican controlled Congress to get Obama to alienate his constituency on the issue of Egypt because they know he can't back out of the area. Oh politics...
My dear friend is a professor who's studied the situation in Egypt for the last 14 years, we talk about this stuff all the time. Oh and lastly, don't trust any mainstream media. This includes magazines too... I would still recommend reading The New Yorker for their splendid cartoons! Z.net should be everyone's first source on world issues.
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+!
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FUCK the 1%
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+!
I wasn't comparing Egypt to America? I'm just saying that we need millions of ppl on the street. Voting is a joke, whoever has the most money wins now? some fucking democracy:( and yes mainstream media propaganda machine is profiting the most off the ma laze." Democracy Now" maybe reaches a million if there lucky? not sure and I'm talking world wide, "FSRN" is great at KPFA.org (please support) It feels good to get out and hold a sign, but really now! I think its way to late for America to ease out of empire. Its either the easy way? or the hard way? we seem to be taking the latter? Have you seen what a joke all this distraction has been?" The Worlds on Fire for Christs Sake" were debating issues from the 50s? Bizarre? Here's a news flash for you! Obama wins in 2012 because hes up against an out of touch 1%er and a demagogue! He plays ball with the Military Industrial Complex and the Financial sector. Hes bought and sold too! He looks great though! that's something!