Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: MrJoshua on February 04, 2012, 01:14 am
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Two articles about Silk Road hit major news outlets this week. First the second Gawker article and now the BBC piece. Both condemn SR for what they say is an unregulated marketplace for "Fake passports, guns - even child pornography. "-- Direct quote from BBC.
Really? I see mostly drugs, and even there it just seems like a whole lot of pot is being sold.
Last year the article in Gawker was a positive piece that brought a lot of new customers here, me included. I read that article on Gawker and didn't even know the deep web existed.
If the press is to believed today the deep web isn't a place to swap your local pot dealer for a digital one, but for "Fake passports, guns - even child pornography. "
Get this shit off Silk Road now!
These articles used to praise us, now they are vilifying us for something we barely sell. I mean how guns have sold, two, three maybe?
If you want to sell guns on the deepweb, and someone should, they should be separate or else Silk Road will continue to be villified in the press and the court of public opinion will begin to dissolve any goodwill Silk Road has.
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There is no CP and there hasn't been for months and fake passports and guns you can get on just about any street corner in the USA.
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Perception becomes reality. Like I said, guns aren't really selling here, they're FOR SALE.
If Silk road wants to convince the public to swap their local dealer for a digital one they have to get the public comfortable with Silk Road, and when article after article come out and lump SR in the same world as pedophilia and gun trafficking, it adds a corrosive element to our name and destroys our credibility.
These products have only been here for a few weeks and need to go to BMR, a more appropriate venue for gun sales.
It's not just an LE issue, it's about how to grow SR, by giving us a bad name in public? Think like a businessman, PR is everything for companies now, and SR is one too, like it or not.
Any paltry sum they earn from gun sale commissions will be washed away a thousand-fold every time the words Fake passports, guns - even child pornography are in the same sentence as Silk Road. This is a no-brainer.
SR management needs to send a strong clear message to Adrian Goldberg from the BBC and Adrian Chen from the Gawker. Where is Silk Road in this?
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Lexus has it RIGHT. Either SR is an anonymous agorist marketplace or it isn't. You can't dictate what is for sale here and call it a free market. As it is now it's just about the only TRUE free market in existence. STOP worrying about other people's business and clean up your own backyard and you'll see how smoothly everything goes from then on. It's obvious LE can't touch SR or they would have already. What's being sold here doesn't change LE's power to do anything about it, as some people seem to believe.
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Lexus has it RIGHT. Either SR is an anonymous agorist marketplace or it isn't. You can't dictate what is for sale here and call it a free market..
Yet we dictate quite a bit what can't be sold on Silk Road.
Why is the date-rape drug sold here openly, yet counterfeit currency is illegal on SR. Seems arbitrary and unevenly applied.
Child porn can't be sold but crystal meth can? These are all arbitrary decisions made according to what they think the public has a tolerance for. And what I'm saying is that the public has a lot more tolerance towards a site that sells small amounts of drugs vs one that is lumped into the Axis of Evil mindset thinking with gun trafficking and child porn, like the BBC just did.
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- think about this for a second, why would you continue to allow weapons to be sold here, how would it help you if you wanted to be a force to be reckoned with ?!
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The problem with your case: you're assuming that SR makes "arbitrary decisions made according to what they think the public has a tolerance for".
So Lexus, please tell me then, why can I buy the date rape drug here but I cannot sell counterfeit currency as a vendor? Why can I not sell child pornography but I can sell crystal meth? If this is agorist like the claim, then why are there many restrictions on what can be sold???
Silk Road is obviously drawing a line in the sand, and regardless of their motives--this one to allow guns-- is tarnishing their reputation with the public. And with a public lashing from both BBC and Gawker, and I remind you that Gawker was an ally of SR until the guns showed up. Hmmm......
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:-X
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first off, that article didn't even mention SR at all....it wasn't about this site. it was about the deep web in general. and second, have you seen any child porn on here? because I haven't....you should stop browsing child porn sites and silk road at the same time, you're confusing the two
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I like that people want to defend their SR.. I just think there might be more effective methods of doing so. Some suggestions: Cite historical events, cite law, evidence, SR mission statement..
Yo, we should put a cap in Goldberg's ass. Yo.
Peace all.
> How about No.
TTFM
Pine
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I'm horny, so horny horny horny
FTFY
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Two articles about Silk Road hit major news outlets this week. First the second Gawker article and now the BBC piece. Both condemn SR for what they say is an unregulated marketplace for "Fake passports, guns - even child pornography. "-- Direct quote from BBC.
Really? I see mostly drugs, and even there it just seems like a whole lot of pot is being sold.
Last year the article in Gawker was a positive piece that brought a lot of new customers here, me included. I read that article on Gawker and didn't even know the deep web existed.
If the press is to believed today the deep web isn't a place to swap your local pot dealer for a digital one, but for "Fake passports, guns - even child pornography. "
Get this shit off Silk Road now!
These articles used to praise us, now they are vilifying us for something we barely sell. I mean how guns have sold, two, three maybe?
If you want to sell guns on the deepweb, and someone should, they should be separate or else Silk Road will continue to be villified in the press and the court of public opinion will begin to dissolve any goodwill Silk Road has.
Funny - on NORMAL message boards there are usually people saying that the fake passports, guns, and kiddy porn should be ADDED and made more readily available. Especially near schools . .. .. And churches . . . .
And now for some inappropriate affect: :-*
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I'm horny, so horny horny horny
FTFY
Pronouce: sar·casm/ˈsärˌkazəm/
Noun: The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
Synonyms: irony
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I'm horny, so horny horny horny
FTFY
FTFY? Isn't that the guy from "In Da Cluh" ?
You know, with the bottle fulla buh?
... He got dat ex if yuh inna takuh druh!
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sarcasm
Synonyms: irony
You need to get a new dictionary, that one is wrong.
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sarcasm
Synonyms: irony
You need to get a new dictionary, that one is wrong.
If Google Define says it [define: sarcasm], then it must be true :P
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Yet we dictate quite a bit what can't be sold on Silk Road.
Why is the date-rape drug sold here openly, yet counterfeit currency is illegal on SR. Seems arbitrary and unevenly applied.
Jesus christ, you really are a moron, you probally read the daily mail and other anti drug articles and actaully believe them. You sound like a CNN article gone wrong.
you ever thought that people use the drug recreationally??
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If you don't like CP, guns and fake passports then don't buy them.
these things wouldn't even exist if there were zero demand for them..
It's like me saying "hey don't sell meth here cause i don't do meth and its bad"
like shut the hell up man.
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If it's illegal to sell, it should be allowed to sell here. whether or not you realize it, more people are impressed with guns and other weapons for sale, so to ban a product which can score 100+ bitcoins per sale and repeat customers makes no sense. Sure, we could all argue all these different points and reasons to be anti or pro guns, but the reality is this.. guns are already available everywhere if you have proper connections, but getting them through SR will speed things up and can make you feel safer since this person has no idea who you are and you aren't going to a guy who sells guns with 1800 cash who can easily take one of those guns and rob you, kill you, rape you, or worse... so let's be adults and let merchants be merchants. either way SR makes money, and any publicity is good publicity, cuz people pay attention..
the media will provide "bad" news and people spread the word. when the word gets around you can get some guns with your drugs you'll end up making a lot more money, and as long as everyone is secure and well protected it shouldn't be an issue. i'm sure if SR felt it was necessary they could easily add another login page to get into a guns selling part, so the people who can't cope with seeing guns but can snort heroin and cocaine all day will feel better.
USA, too many drugs can get you life in jail, too many guns get you no more than 3-5 years at 85%. so you tell me which one is worst to have since they both will be illegally owned..
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Yet we dictate quite a bit what can't be sold on Silk Road.
Why is the date-rape drug sold here openly, yet counterfeit currency is illegal on SR. Seems arbitrary and unevenly applied.
Jesus christ, you really are a moron, you probally read the daily mail and other anti drug articles and actaully believe them. You sound like a CNN article gone wrong.
you ever thought that people use the drug recreationally??
Thanks for saying it. One vendor (DubG) even specifically says do not mix with alcohol on his listings. Its not like he lists it as DATE RAPE DRUG. He has free GHB samples btw so you guys should hit that up if interested...
Anyway I think SR really has to think pragmatically here. I dislike government intrusion as much as any person on here. However you have to think about the agencies involved. The second we have guns here, you get the ATF involved. Child pornography will have more FBI teams involved (although I believe its banned on SR so I'm not sure why everyones bringing it up). I think the best thing would be to minimize the resources that will be used to fight SR. Just my opinion but a market that's available where I can get drugs for a long time means a lot more to me than a market where I can get anything for a year or two and it gets shut down.
Other markets will pop up over time. There is already another one for guns (forget the name). IMO, minimize the oppositions ability to gather resources by limiting the agencies who fight against us.
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Agreed
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well said sir 8)
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sarcasm
Synonyms: irony
You need to get a new dictionary, that one is wrong.
Haha pure fucking gold :P pine brings dictionary, does self-pwnage -> FTMFW
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crap... how can some of you people sit around thinking Child Porn should be sold on here with guns, fake passports or drugs? Many people who buy a gun online would be getting it for an area where they aren't allowed to own one and need it for self defense. There's no guarantee they will kill anyone with it. It's a physical object with no violent crime associated to it unless the user decides to, just like their fists or a baseball bat. You can kill someone with any number of household items. Drugs are a victimless crime, any harm to our health is done to our own bodies. We can make that decision for ourselves.
Child Porn is sometimes recorded rape of children. A crime against a human was committed during its filming. The child was unable to make up any decision.
I'm a libertarian. But even in an anarcho-capitalist wet dream I imagine there would be a system (just not the government) to either lock up pedophiles or allow the private party (family of victim) to seek justice.
Just because we believe in freedom doesn't mean we should allow the promotion of a violent crime. The whole idea of SR is to allow people to easily buy substances they should have the right to posses for their personal use, isn't it?
Since when should we be promoting taking a child's freedom away through child porn?
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Absolutely, this is the underground, this is the black market, this is where you buy goods (guns included) that the gov't doesn't want you to have. As far as CP goes, that is a crime against humanity simply by existing no matter how you use it.
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Two articles about Silk Road hit major news outlets this week. First the second Gawker article and now the BBC piece. Both condemn SR for what they say is an unregulated marketplace for "Fake passports, guns - even child pornography. "-- Direct quote from BBC.
Really? I see mostly drugs, and even there it just seems like a whole lot of pot is being sold.
Last year the article in Gawker was a positive piece that brought a lot of new customers here, me included. I read that article on Gawker and didn't even know the deep web existed.
....
These articles used to praise us, now they are vilifying us for something we barely sell. I mean how guns have sold, two, three maybe?
If you want to sell guns on the deepweb, and someone should, they should be separate or else Silk Road will continue to be villified in the press and the court of public opinion will begin to dissolve any goodwill Silk Road has.
One needful correction is that the very first Gawker article did not praise SR. That was your recollection through nostalgia. After that first article, Sen Chuck Schumer launched a campaign to shut SR down. Nothing came of it though. *shrug*
Stop worrying.
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Everything that is grey or white market should be allowed here. Child porn shouldn't be allowed here because it will create a financial market (not that anyone would pay for CP when it is free and linked to all over hidden wiki). Although CP in and of itself is not immoral. Guns should be allowed here. All drugs should be allowed here. Counterfeit money shouldn't be allowed here because it is fucking stealing. What if some poor mom and pop shop gets stuck with your fake money, that comes out of THEIR pocket. Stealing is not acceptable agorist action. Selling CP is not acceptable agorist action imo (many agorists would argue against this and say that only production is immoral, not selling or possession or trading), although offering it freely isn't immoral.
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crap... how can some of you people sit around thinking Child Porn should be sold on here with guns, fake passports or drugs? Many people who buy a gun online would be getting it for an area where they aren't allowed to own one and need it for self defense. There's no guarantee they will kill anyone with it. It's a physical object with no violent crime associated to it unless the user decides to, just like their fists or a baseball bat. You can kill someone with any number of household items. Drugs are a victimless crime, any harm to our health is done to our own bodies. We can make that decision for ourselves.
Child Porn is sometimes recorded rape of children. A crime against a human was committed during its filming. The child was unable to make up any decision.
I'm a libertarian. But even in an anarcho-capitalist wet dream I imagine there would be a system (just not the government) to either lock up pedophiles or allow the private party (family of victim) to seek justice.
Just because we believe in freedom doesn't mean we should allow the promotion of a violent crime. The whole idea of SR is to allow people to easily buy substances they should have the right to posses for their personal use, isn't it?
Since when should we be promoting taking a child's freedom away through child porn?
Well you may be a libertarian on some issues but a true libertarian would be for the decriminalization of child porn possession and distribution, although not production. Some percentage of men rape females. Men look at pornography, you can find large numbers of men by tracing the IPs recorded on pornography websites. I propose that we find all of these men and lock them up to reduce rape rates. This is the logic you are using. The only difference is that the participants in legal pornography usually agree to participate, and the participants in much of child pornography do not consent or are incapable of consent due to their stage of mental development. However, you seem to believe in some magic voodoo process whereby the offenses commited in a picture are also commited by those who view the pictures (this voodoo is named "re-victimization" by the law enforcement agencies). If you really believe in revictimization you would think that those who view images of the holocaust should be tried for war crimes.
Also I'm a libertarian. But even in an anarcho-capitalist wet dream I imagine there would be a system (just not the government) to either lock up pedophiles or allow the private party (family of victim) to seek justice.
you are assuming that all pedophiles create victims. The most realistic statistics show that only ~16% of pedophiles who view child pornography molest children, and even this statistic is artificially inflated when you take into consideration the fact that some of those arrested were arrested for offenses like sleeping with their 17 year old girlfriend and then having naked pictures of her discovered after her parents flip out.
Child porn possession is just as much a victimless crime as drug use, or possession of holocaust images.
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Children can't consent to images of their rape being distributed all over the internet.. Therefore it's not a victimless crime, the victim is real and is in the picture. I also recall Blackmarket reloaded trying to sell CP when they first started and look what happened, massive boycott of their board. Nobody is going to sell wares beside CP, be associated with it, or want anything to do with it.
Feel free to go create your own illegal porn board see what happens to it. Hope you know how to sanitize php user inputs
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Dead holocaust victims can't consent to images of their genocide being distributed all over the internet.. Therefore it's not a victimless crime, the victim is real and is in the picture.
Feel free to go create your own illegal porn board see what happens to it. Hope you know how to sanitize php user inputs
Why bother I don't want to aid in the distribution of CP, I just don't think it is a victim causing crime to do so. And I know how to secure servers pretty damn well but thanks for the concern.
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Man I just can't believe what I'm reading. Did you know the latest thing is that online paedophiles can use computer programs that can actually make your keyboard release toxic vapours that make children more suggestible?
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"these men have chosen the way of the animal. They don't deserve punishment, they deserve GUNISHMENT!" ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLyLGrbKokI
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Paedophiles have got more DNA in common with a crab than with you and I. That's scientific fact. There's no actual evidence for it, but it *is* scientific fact.
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Ah I feel a Morris-a-thon coming on. I'm going to sniff a line of K and watch some Jam on Youtube. That be some dark, dark shit.
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*like*
Am pretty baked, gonna watch some Day Today before bed, Jam is too dark for a comedowny Sunday night :D
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I'm not sure why we're discussing CP, since Silkroad already made it clear they don't intend to allow it. But it's worth keeping in mind that the legal definition is quite a bit wider than "pictures of children being raped". It usually includes some or all of: 16 and 17-year-olds, who can legally have in most places; pictures of children someone decides are "too sexy", even though there are no sex acts; and in some places, even naughty drawing of Bart and Lisa Simpson. It's nowhere near as black-and-white as some would have you believe.
Alright, I better stop before everybody assumes I'm from Milit-Paed.
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Paedophiles have got more DNA in common with a crab than with you and I. That's scientific fact. There's no actual evidence for it, but it *is* scientific fact.
LOL @ "paedophile"
Thaut craucked mie up:)
Yay @ old-timey vowel adding! And yay @ levity while discussing the lowest ranking member of society!
YOU WANT COM MIT MENT? PUT ON YOUR BEST SUIT!
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LOL @ "paedophile"
Thaut craucked mie up:)
Yay @ old-timey vowel adding! And yay @ levity while discussing the lowest ranking member of society!
YOU WANT COM MIT MENT? PUT ON YOUR BEST SUIT!
My honourable colonial neighbour, I think you are labouring under some colourful misapprehensions. I shall endavour to do you a favour by analysing your titbits of dialogue and dispel these meagre rumours by organising a defence of my mother tongue (with some humour, I hope).
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You leave no Grey area!
Also, lol@ "my mother tongue" ... I speak AMERKUN!
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Do we want to be the amazon.com of drugs and all get wealthy while allowing consenting customers to save money in the process, or do we want to be some poorly defined agorist outpost with "values," like one day guns are bad for sale and the next they're okay; without any input from the vendors or buyers. This is not how agorism works; what you have here goes by another name.
- with the massive influx of visitors it has a price to pay off the top of my head :
more load on server resources
more bogus buyers to deal with
less of a good deal for "real" shoppers in cost and service
not being able to determine the "goody" from the "baddy" isn't good for vendor nor seller...cos some people value rep and principals..
- the bigger store is still here, just hopefully directing those that want certain items and services where to get them....
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- think about this for a second, why would you continue to allow weapons to be sold here, how would it help you if you wanted to be a force to be reckoned with ?!
That is sarcasm right? Or you live in some wolly European city? We will be a force if we are armed.
EDIT: I think I support the sentiment about we should be allowed to buy n sell pretty much anything as long as it is harming others. Guns are for self defense and legal in some parts, the fake passports are stupid if it's like Peach says because one controlled buy will reveal the contact inside of HM whatever it is, I think I agree with the idea that CP is not really harmful but I also agree that we shouldn't be associated with it, thats just asking for trouble. Pediatricians have been attacked just for sharing the same greek root.
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- think about this for a second, why would you continue to allow weapons to be sold here, how would it help you if you wanted to be a force to be reckoned with ?!
- sure its an observation from the outside looking in
That is sarcasm right? Or you live in some wolly European city? We will be a force if we are armed.
EDIT: I think I support the sentiment about we should be allowed to buy n sell pretty much anything as long as it is harming others. Guns are for self defense and legal in some parts, the fake passports are stupid if it's like Peach says because one controlled buy will reveal the contact inside of HM whatever it is, I think I agree with the idea that CP is not really harmful but I also agree that we shouldn't be associated with it, thats just asking for trouble. Pediatricians have been attacked just for sharing the same greek root.
- we aren't disagreeing here...
- self defence and preparing for what might come...
- at the moment, as little harm as possible.
;)
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...But, has anyone noticed there's a definite shift or desire to distance themselves from weapons, CP are the 2 that stand out.
is this a knee jerk reaction to sudden media attention?!
does anyone know why and when they felt this recently?
the options here are :
1. to tolerate the agorist model of which i am new to myself -all-under-one-roof for sale, AND/OR
2. vent frustrations or energies to openness and legalisation, OR
3. further segregation of "items" which would come at a cost and too much fragmentation alienates ++ etc
i would say stick to the armoury and tolerate the rest.
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You leave no Grey area!
Also, lol@ "my mother tongue" ... I speak AMERKUN!
should be AMERIGUN! more like it
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...But, has anyone noticed there's a definite shift or desire to distance themselves from weapons, CP are the 2 that stand out.
is this a knee jerk reaction to sudden media attention?!
does anyone know why and when they felt this recently?
the options here are :
1. to tolerate the agorist model of which i am new to myself -all-under-one-roof for sale, AND/OR
2. vent frustrations or energies to openness and legalisation, OR
3. further segregation of "items" which would come at a cost and too much fragmentation alienates ++ etc
i would say stick to the armoury and tolerate the rest.
Is there something wrong with wanting to distance yourself from CP? I'm sorry but CP is something I personally find repulsive, and I think if you don't you may want to see someone about that, no offense (and yes I realize theres a gray area of 18->17 year olds blah blah, thats not what CP were talking about here).
Drugs are a choice, something you can do in private and harm no one. If you harm someone while high, by driving, or being fucking stupid, then you should pay the price for it.
Guns just simply draw more attention, it allows the media/congress to spin this much more as a terrorist threat, especially with the fake Passports/Currency/Documents being offered.
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...no i don't feel there is anything wrong raven, i never said i need it nor promote it..
- i read that SR / DPR said they wouldnt support it -which i assume means for "sale", i am looking for the banned list myself, but does that mean
its ok to make up for it by soliciting or discussing CP on the forum i am not sure...logic & common sense is it is to be deterred by flagging it up with a mod..fine
- if the above is accurate then there's nothing to worry about, and my previous post 2 up or so is making more sense, as there's no much of CP around here anyways....and tolerate the rest if that's the agorist model since i'm not in charge...
;)
this is from the sellers guide on SR:-
"Restricted items
Do not list anything who's purpose is to harm or defraud, such as stolen items or info, stolen credit cards, counterfeit currency, personal info, assassinations, and weapons of any kind.
Do not list anything related to pedophilia.
Practically speaking, there are many powerful adversaries of Silk Road and if we are to survive, we must not take them all on at once. Additionally, if you try to please everyone, you will wind up pleasing no one. So certain things are restricted just so we don't scare too many off.
On a moral level, we take the high road, pun intended ;). Those who seek to control the behavior of their neighbors through force are immoral. Silk Road exists to circumvent that force and provide a safe-haven where civilized people can come together in peace for mutual benefit. To allow listings of items designed to defraud or harm innocent people would be to stoop to the level of the very people we are standing up to.
If you are unsure about a listing, just drop us a line and we'll let you know. "
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...no i don't feel there is anything wrong raven, i never said i need it nor promote it..
- i read that SR / DPR said they wouldnt support it -which i assume means for "sale", i am looking for the banned list myself, but does that mean
its ok to make up for it by soliciting or discussing CP on the forum i am not sure...logic & common sense is it is to be deterred by flagging it up with a mod..fine
- if the above is accurate then there's nothing to worry about, and my previous post 2 up or so is making more sense, as there's no much of CP around here anyways....and tolerate the rest if that's the agorist model since i'm not in charge...
;)
this is from the sellers guide on SR:-
"Restricted items
Do not list anything who's purpose is to harm or defraud, such as stolen items or info, stolen credit cards, counterfeit currency, personal info, assassinations, and weapons of any kind.
Do not list anything related to pedophilia.
Practically speaking, there are many powerful adversaries of Silk Road and if we are to survive, we must not take them all on at once. Additionally, if you try to please everyone, you will wind up pleasing no one. So certain things are restricted just so we don't scare too many off.
On a moral level, we take the high road, pun intended ;). Those who seek to control the behavior of their neighbors through force are immoral. Silk Road exists to circumvent that force and provide a safe-haven where civilized people can come together in peace for mutual benefit. To allow listings of items designed to defraud or harm innocent people would be to stoop to the level of the very people we are standing up to.
If you are unsure about a listing, just drop us a line and we'll let you know. "
Sorry TWM, didn't mean to go off on you, was not warranted. I read with haste and I was in a pretty foul mood, not that that excuses me.
The whole thing is irritating, SR's getting a lot of negative publicity :(
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...no offence taken raven, your raised the point that i already suspected ..."negative publicity" -yes i understand so perhaps my initial observation
that forum readers are seeking a solution to "counter" the media's perception of us, mine is to ignore them...hahaha till some representative
of gov policy etc is prepared to partake & listen (perhaps) haaha
;)
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Im sorry if I offend anyone. But if you're posting child porn you're a sick fuck. end of story. I guess some people are into that kinda shit. but cmon. thats fucked up
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If Silk Road has made the decision to not allow child porn then it should be made clear on the home page---
The Boston Globe (Thursday March 8th) put on its FRONT PAGE the silk road page---did its story on TOR and focused on silk road and its allowing child porn, fake passports, guns and, um, drugs.
It's the cp that will raise more hackles and bring silk road crashing down more than anything else---so if it is really not allowed--please say so strongly.
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If Silk Road has made the decision to not allow child porn then it should be made clear on the home page---
The Boston Globe (Thursday March 8th) put on its FRONT PAGE the silk road page---did its story on TOR and focused on silk road and its allowing child porn, fake passports, guns and, um, drugs.
It's the cp that will raise more hackles and bring silk road crashing down more than anything else---so if it is really not allowed--please say so strongly.
IMO throw it back in their face "SR Charity Month on the fight against CP, 5% of all orders will anonymously be donated an anti CP organization." ;)
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The boston globe never said SR had CP on it. They said Tor has CP on it.
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uhhhm I never checked but if there is child porn and guns being sold on SR than I will NOT vend here. I have to draw a line somewhere. I don't want to click the xxx to see if it's true but really?
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uhhhm I never checked but if there is child porn and guns being sold on SR than I will NOT vend here. I have to draw a line somewhere. I don't want to click the xxx to see if it's true but really?
The Silk Road does not, and never will, vend child pornography.
Re: kmf
Yes, but the media is continually associating the two in a very loose manner calculated to get the public to infer just that. This is particularly the case in the European Media we are seeing.
Re: raven92
That might not be a bad idea propaganda wise. Certainly it would put a stop to the rumor-bird.
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IMO throw it back in their face "SR Charity Month on the fight against CP, 5% of all orders will anonymously be donated an anti CP organization." ;)
Is there an anti-CP organization other than the FBI? Maybe a survivors group or something to that effect.
That said, there are a couple things I feel need mentioning (that I didn't see posted otherwise). While the Silk Road is certainly a freer market than most, that doesn't require that the owners and operators of SR allow any and all products be vended through their website. If one is to call up the ideal "Free Market®©" as a reason for the Silk Road to allow any products or content, we have to realize the same ideal protects the rights of property owner to dictate his own rules; in this case the owners of the SR can decide on any rules they want. If the rules suck, we can go to another anonymous marketplace.
Second, and I think this was stated, CP is evidence of a crime against another person. It's immoral to virtually all well adjust people; a bag of pot or H is just illegal and very good arguments can be made to defend their use as amoral.
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I don't believe that anything, other than scamming should be disallowed on SR.
IF people have guns, passports and CP to sell and there are buyers I fully support that as long as customer and client both satisfied.
Now of course there is the whole moral debate about child porn, and for the record I'm defiantly not in support of the people who make it. But there are also many many "moral" debates about drugs and people who'd just as easily see you crucified for drug use as pedophilia.
In the end child porn is the result of slavery. It's slaves that are sold that end up being models for child porn nearly 100% of the time. Is preventing the trade of child porn going to slow the slave trade? no. Kids will be born, parents will be poor and sell. And the kid will be a slave. I could even go as far as saying that child slaves used in porn are treated BETTER than those that aren't, but I won't go that far as it could be misunderstood.
In the end it's up the the silk road creators what can and cannot be sold. But having my voice, I'd like to say that I'm happier to have a free market where anything goes, rather than a market where things are restricted on the basis of people's morality.
>inb4 someone gets mad and flames
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Maybe the people who created the setup for silk road should streamline it into things that people actually buy(?) hint hint.
Also, guns, in my opinion, are going to be the thing that gets this place destroyed.
a DIFFERENT website should be created for the things that us silkroad users find distasteful, if only to keep publicity OFF of here.
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If Silk Road has made the decision to not allow child porn then it should be made clear on the home page---
The Boston Globe (Thursday March 8th) put on its FRONT PAGE the silk road page---did its story on TOR and focused on silk road and its allowing child porn, fake passports, guns and, um, drugs.
It's the cp that will raise more hackles and bring silk road crashing down more than anything else---so if it is really not allowed--please say so strongly.
IMO throw it back in their face "SR Charity Month on the fight against CP, 5% of all orders will anonymously be donated an anti CP organization." ;)
+1 and I'd be happy to match it with a 5% of my own .
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Had to join up to show my utter disgust for people who think a free market means allowing CP. What next, hit men?
SR (I believe) was mainly set up because taking drugs is a personal choice one makes for themselves, and if they decide to buy/use a drug then it is their choice and they do not deserve to be punished for it.
I can't fathom how people are trying to justify the sale of CP. Buying CP is contributing to a market that destroys children's lives before they have even started and is fucked up on so many levels.
And yes, I know 16/17 year olds is borderline because in some countries it is legal for them to have sex, but we aren't talking about that.
I'm glad that CP is currently not allowed on SR but I agree with those who think a bigger deal should be made of this fact.
If it ever was allowed I would leave and never want to be associated with this place again. To the people who want to buy it who have posted on this thread (and I can't see how any reasonable person would ask for it to be allowed without having an interest in buying it), I feel sick that I've even posted on the same thread of a forum as you.
Hi to all by the way, have been a buyer for just over a month on here, been lurking about a week and am thinking of becoming a vendor although I only have a limited supply of product and am still not sure.
But yes, many thanks to all those who have set this place up and to all those honest and decent people who have contributed to it's growth. I would have thought objection to CP would be universal from this place, I feel uneasy that there are some here who want it, but hopefully a strong message will be sent out against it as it is something that would irreparably harm the reputation of this site.
(I probably shouldn't have started with a rant as my first post but I just can't believe this is even being discussed).
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I don't believe that anything, other than scamming should be disallowed on SR.
IF people have guns, passports and CP to sell and there are buyers I fully support that as long as customer and client both satisfied.
Now of course there is the whole moral debate about child porn, and for the record I'm defiantly not in support of the people who make it. But there are also many many "moral" debates about drugs and people who'd just as easily see you crucified for drug use as pedophilia.
In the end child porn is the result of slavery. It's slaves that are sold that end up being models for child porn nearly 100% of the time. Is preventing the trade of child porn going to slow the slave trade? no. Kids will be born, parents will be poor and sell. And the kid will be a slave. I could even go as far as saying that child slaves used in porn are treated BETTER than those that aren't, but I won't go that far as it could be misunderstood.
In the end it's up the the silk road creators what can and cannot be sold. But having my voice, I'd like to say that I'm happier to have a free market where anything goes, rather than a market where things are restricted on the basis of people's morality.
>inb4 someone gets mad and flames
I guess we have to agree to disagree. Even in prison where murders, thieves,drug traffickers, etc... are, they have a moral code. Any child rapist gets killed or lives in solitary confinement because even the worst of the worst so to speak have morals.
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People who are into the whole CP thing, aren't getting there fix on Silk Road. There are plenty of places where the shit is obvious and free. Guns.....where do I start. Any dumbass could walk to their local pawnshop and buy a fucking gun, it might take a few days but so would ordering shit here. and at least the pawn shop isn't going to scam your ass. And i think that anyone offering to sell and ship anything that you need a fed fire arms license for is lying to you. there are places for that shit also. Fake passports ? whats the problem with that ? Chances are some kid with a gluestick is making them and if you wanna take your chances paying for it, thats your problem. Terrorist can get documents that look real from established underground folks. I think its all a bunch of horseshit myself because even though those things have been tried here it doesn't really mesh and anyone with half a brain who looked into it would see that. The free market will take care of it.....lol, I can't believe i just said that.
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Had to join up to show my utter disgust for people who think a free market means allowing CP. What next, hit men?
SR (I believe) was mainly set up because taking drugs is a personal choice one makes for themselves, and if they decide to buy/use a drug then it is their choice and they do not deserve to be punished for it.
I can't fathom how people are trying to justify the sale of CP. Buying CP is contributing to a market that destroys children's lives before they have even started and is fucked up on so many levels.
And yes, I know 16/17 year olds is borderline because in some countries it is legal for them to have sex, but we aren't talking about that.
I'm glad that CP is currently not allowed on SR but I agree with those who think a bigger deal should be made of this fact.
If it ever was allowed I would leave and never want to be associated with this place again. To the people who want to buy it who have posted on this thread (and I can't see how any reasonable person would ask for it to be allowed without having an interest in buying it), I feel sick that I've even posted on the same thread of a forum as you.
Hi to all by the way, have been a buyer for just over a month on here, been lurking about a week and am thinking of becoming a vendor although I only have a limited supply of product and am still not sure.
But yes, many thanks to all those who have set this place up and to all those honest and decent people who have contributed to it's growth. I would have thought objection to CP would be universal from this place, I feel uneasy that there are some here who want it, but hopefully a strong message will be sent out against it as it is something that would irreparably harm the reputation of this site.
(I probably shouldn't have started with a rant as my first post but I just can't believe this is even being discussed).
I'm with you on Child Exploitation. I've never even seen it mentioned in the context of SR until I ran across this thread. The "date rape drug" is harmless in and of itself. What you choose to do with it is another matter. No women (or men) were raped during the manufacture of this molecule. CP, on the other hand, likely involves a child forced or cajoled into the most vile sexual exploitation known to the world. A "free market" means to be free from exploitation, tyranny, abuse, fear for your life, etc. Luring a child into lurid performances shouldn't sit well with any true free marketeer.
Hit men, however, I can make a case for. Particularly since Obama has claimed the right to assassinate any American citizen anywhere with no oversight. Actually, Obama doesn't have any influence over my moral compass. Nonetheless, if the President's declared it to be legal, it should probably be legal on SR.
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Wasn't there a poll on this? I would have to think that the vast majority of our members don't want to see heat on SR because we are selling guns. I mean, 99.999% of us didn't come here to buy guns. Is SR even needed to buy guns? The United States has gun stores everywhere, tens of thousands of guns easily available.
Lets face it, we are thrilled to have SR because we can buy harmless drugs here. I don't want to risk losing SR because someone is selling assault rifiles.
Finally, I think it could be some positive publicity for SR. If the papers mentioned that SR has a strict policy against CP and weapons, it might take some of the heat off of this site.
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The arrogance in these threads is always so jarring. : / For a community where so many people claim to be libertarians, we sure do like telling DPR what to do with his website. And for what? Because we want to shove our moral systems onto someone else? Wtf. I know you guys see the hypocrisy here.
I'm as disgusted by CP as anyone. If it were sold on SR, I would very likely never come back. But that's the only decision I have any right to make. Only DPR can decide what gets sold on here and what doesn't; luckily for us sane, well-adjusted members of the human species, CP is out.
If your beef is that guns, etc will bring more unwanted attention to SR, then I can at least respect that. I agree with it, even. But it is possible to express that opinion without making demands, and saying that "X and Y have to go RIGHT NOW." I mean, who the fuck do you think you are?
Ultimately, it isn't up to us. We can speak with our money, sure, but that still only amounts to arm twisting. You aren't actually making any decisions. This is not a democracy, and I am very fucking thankful for that.
EDIT: Oh, and for the record, I fucking love GHB. The OP doesn't even know that people take it recreationally? Why are we even listening to anything he has to say? What is he even doing here in the first place?
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I have been getting my child pornography from the internet for longer than I have been distributing & buying drugs. :o
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The arrogance in these threads is always so jarring. : / For a community where so many people claim to be libertarians, we sure do like telling DPR what to do with his website. And for what? Because we want to shove our moral systems onto someone else? Wtf. I know you guys see the hypocrisy here.
As a person who holds themselves to be a libertarian, I believe that we have no right to tell someone what they can/cannot do if they are not hurting the life, liberty or safety of another. With CP all three are being hurt in countless ways as the victim does not have an understanding (and is most likely being forced) of what is going on.
So, as a libertarian, I would think that we must speak up about it.
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If Silk Road EVER just becomes drugs then I wouldn't want anything to do with this place, drugs are way too easy to obtain.
I'm against Child Pornography, but everything else is alright with me.
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I'm horny, so horny horny horny
FTFY
FTFY? Isn't that the guy from "In Da Cluh" ?
You know, with the bottle fulla buh?
... He got dat ex if yuh inna takuh druh!
lol!
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The arrogance in these threads is always so jarring. : / For a community where so many people claim to be libertarians, we sure do like telling DPR what to do with his website. And for what? Because we want to shove our moral systems onto someone else? Wtf. I know you guys see the hypocrisy here.
As a person who holds themselves to be a libertarian, I believe that we have no right to tell someone what they can/cannot do if they are not hurting the life, liberty or safety of another. With CP all three are being hurt in countless ways as the victim does not have an understanding (and is most likely being forced) of what is going on.
So, as a libertarian, I would think that we must speak up about it.
It's the attitude that comes with it that grates on me. It must be the anonymous nature of the internet that makes people grow a phantom set of balls and start making demands on other people's property.
And CP was only a part of what the OP went on about. And it's already not allowed on SR. So wtf.
The arrogance in these threads is always so jarring. : / For a community where so many people claim to be libertarians, we sure do like telling DPR what to do with his website.
The way the subject line of this thread was written may have been a little arrogant but the subject under discussion is important to the community for philosophical and security reasons. I don't think it should be taboo to discuss and ultimately, DPR doesn't have to listen to any of it.
And for what? Because we want to shove our moral systems onto someone else? Wtf. I know you guys see the hypocrisy here.
It doesn't have to have anything to do with morals (but it can). Child porn and terrorism are two hot button issues today and by disassociating them from SR it makes SR less of a target.
I understand that it isn't about morals for many people (although for many, it clearly is). Like I said in the part of the post you decided not to quote (for whatever reason), I can at least respect where you are coming from. I just think there is a way to go about discussing it without making demands.
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Hateful, horrible things exist, and they always will. My pet peeve or my utmost horror is someone else's passtime, or even bread and butter. I would still hate them, but I must ask myself, isn't everything symmetrical? In the highest order of things, isn't all relative, at least to a degree? Then how can I purport to dictate what others do or may do with their time, money or psychic energy?
What it all comes down to is, do I want someone, anyone (i.e., the entrenched hierarchical power structure), to dictate to me what I can do or not do, as long as I don't ***directly*** harm anyone or anything?
Then how can I do the same? We have to just swallow hard and move on, that is all.
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As far as I am aware Silk Roads owner(s) do NOT allow child porn - its part of the terms and conditions.
As a drug user and seller I still have a sense of morality and think child pornographers ought to be put into jail for life.
As for fake passports - it might help someone have a better life - who can blame them for trying? Exploiting this would be cruel though - so maybe its best to ban passports.
As for guns - for the price of them I would sooner secure my home against intruders. Plus even if you repel an attack you will be going to jail just for having the gun. Of course - owning a gun is ok for anyone protecting the government. The rest of us have no protection. Selling guns here would bring the security services on the scene eventually. The ordinary cops have not the resources to go fishing here but security services would likely link gun sales online to terror which is my opinion is not worth the risk of selling guns.
And all it takes is for one idiot to do something really bad and Silk Road mentioned by the perp and so on.
So I would agree with banning the sales of guns and passports. Selling ID so college kids can drink seems fair as we can drink aged 18 in the UK and generally have the first drink aged 13 or so!
If child porn was available/ here I would not be here. As stated by another wise user - those sick bastards have their own little websites and would not use Silk Road as even this is too open for them.
I think Silk Road is like any other place were people gather to trade. We all hate pedophiles.
May they rot in hell.
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If child porn was available/ here I would not be here. As stated by another wise user - those sick bastards have their own little websites and would not use Silk Road as even this is too open for them.
I think Silk Road is like any other place were people gather to trade. We all hate pedophiles.
May they rot in hell.
[/quo]
I respect and value your opinion, but I'm sorry, man, I can't agree with you, which doesn't mean I want to ban you. You're welcome to your position. But by saying that, you are only trying to raise your own sense of morality, by saying "they are horrible, I am not; therefore I am better than they". Being holier than thou does not prove a single thing, you may or may be not an exemplary human being, but by trying to rise up by proxy as it were, you don't get anywhere. And remember, a lot of people are thinking, may they rot in hell referring to drug users, for chrissake.
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I think you guys are mixing it up very badly.
Fake Passports, Guns and Child Pornography?
All three categories are as illegal as selling illegal drugs.
But both Passports and Guns do assist the drug business, but child pornography is absolutely unjustifiable in any sense.
Pedophilia is a paraphilia that harms innocent kids.
Just to make things clear: pedophilia is sexual attraction to pre-pubescent kids, kids under 13.
From 14 to 16 is called hebephilia (pubescent), and 17 to 18 is called efebophilia (post-pubescent).
Efebophilia is biologically normal, as the kids in that age are biologically fertile, and girls at that age are absolutely in the peak of their fertility.
Hebephilia is very controversial.
But Pedophilia is absolutely not justifiable psychologically, it is definitely deviant and extremely harmful for the kids who are victimized or lured into having sex. There are tons of studies about the effects of child abuse.
The only thing out of place is CP.
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Well guns are pretty fucked up too IMHO. They are part of the drug trade, in a bad way (thanks SR for making our lives a little safer). But now they have there own special place and I feel better because of that:) I like what you do though....very cool...me want! can't afford:(
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Every time CP comes around the hysteria goes sky high with "child paladins" eager to go commit vandalism in the name of... well... their own dumbness.
CP is so common at Tor due to a simple reason, the same anonymity which allows SR to exist allows pedos to be anonymous. You can't change that, if you figure a way to stop and identify CP servers at Tor you had figured a way to shut down SR, and all other Tor sites in the process.
Keep talking about CP also does the Streisand effect, when you talk to a friend of yours you think is "normal" to say how shocked you are about CP at Tor you may actually being pointing a pedophile to this network. Often pedos disguise themselves as people who gets "ultra-upset about/against pedophilia" and even overreact in words about what should be done to pedophiles... it's a way they find to shield themselves from the suspicion of others.
Amazed? Open a fake profile as if you were a 12 yo girl and go try some friends, you may get some... interesting (or disappointing) results.
For trauma, it's controversy about what is causing trauma to who. At many places were child sex was taken as normal they didn't develop any trauma... so where does it come from? Are today's westerns different? Or is it the society who inputs the trauma? I was talking with a friend the other day and she was shocked because Natasha Kampusch was laughing in an interview speaking about her captor. She was shocked because she was... laughing?! Yes... reverse trauma! Say you've trauma or the society will look at you like a freak. Be pitied or be scorned!
This said if you intend to fight pedophilia for real, it's a no way to go harassing THW or TD or DDoS pedo sites and act as a brainless hooligan overall, it's by USING YOUR BRAIN. There're ways to do it, not in Tor, technology here just lets you know it can't help at all, but by identifying details. If you get a video and listen to the child or the pedo speaking and if you're from their country you may be able to recognize the accent, background details may give you clues on the filming location, etc... that may help you to ID some pedos and put them out of commission.
Back OT: there's no CP at SR, so maybe BBC's journalists are getting as good as those of The Sun...
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@DaMan let me make you few corrections.
For trauma, it's controversy about what is causing trauma to who. At many places were child sex was taken as normal they didn't develop any trauma... so where does it come from? Are today's westerns different?
It would be absolutely irresponsible to say that "at many places" child sex was taken as normal.
I challenge you to bring me any anthropological evidence to sustain that claim.
"they didn't develop any trauma", I strongly challenge you to bring me a psychological study to support that claim.
I even bet you a free ID card of any state if you bring me non-anecdotal evidence: scientific, empirical and longitudinal study that proofs that child sexual abuse doesn't harm psychologically.
As I explained pre-pubescent are not ready for sex and their bodies are not designed to have sex, in no culture in the world would consider PEDOPHILIA normal, because we are NOT biologically inclined to find a children sexually attractive, because they are not fertile.
A whole different story is in the case of Ephebophilia, who ARE in the prime fertile periods of their lives, regardless of underage laws, once they are post-pubescent it is natural to feel sexually aroused to 16 or 18 years old girls.
Although they are biologically mature, that doesn't mean that they are psychologically mature.
But if we talk about Ephebophilia, yes, we will find countless of historical cases of "underage" love and marriages in a whole range of cultures, but you must have a clear distinction between the types of underage relationships. Hell, even my grandma married when she was 15.
PEDOPHILIA describes sexual attraction to pre-pubescents, from 0 to 12 years old, and this is deviant, and it is abhorrent anywhere. There are no culture in the world that accepts sexual relations with pre-pubescents.
In any case child abuse psychologically leaves deep scars. Kids who were sexually abused tend to become borderline, violent, self-loathing, suicidal, depressed, having a lot of emotional problems, and a lot of issues developing trust.
Or is it the society who inputs the trauma? I was talking with a friend the other day and she was shocked because Natasha Kampusch was laughing in an interview speaking about her captor. She was shocked because she was... laughing?! Yes... reverse trauma! Say you've trauma or the society will look at you like a freak. Be pitied or be scorned!
It is not like Natasha enjoyed it, obviously she despised him, and yet after being in confinement when your only social interaction possible is with your captor strange things happen.
It is a phenomena called Stockholm syndrome.
Also, getting to much attention is extremely stressful. It is stressful when you are famous for doing cool stuff, like being a celebrity. Imagine how stressful it would be when you are famous for being raped.
I've analyzed Natasha's facial expressions and she definitely has trouble expressing emotions appropriately.
By the way, there are several types of laughs, most people can't tell the difference a laugh from real joy from a fake laugh or a nervous laugh.
My specialty is to dissect them and classify them to understand with greater accuracy the real emotions behind a face.
In any case, I think that we went way offtopic, and the OP was pointless from the very beginning.
Silk Road doesn't allow Child Porn, and there are no offering of Child Porn.
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@DaMan let me make you few corrections.
For trauma, it's controversy about what is causing trauma to who. At many places were child sex was taken as normal they didn't develop any trauma... so where does it come from? Are today's westerns different?
It would be absolutely irresponsible to say that "at many places" child sex was taken as normal.
I challenge you to bring me any anthropological evidence to sustain that claim.
"they didn't develop any trauma", I strongly challenge you to bring me a psychological study to support that claim.
Now, I've never been good with history at all, but, if I'm not mistaken, adults in Ancient Greece would have sex with their own kids. And it was normal. And those kids grew up to be the best soldiers ever.
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You took a step too far Peach. The rational thinking always should make you QUESTION and NEVER make ASSUMPTIONS. Assumptions are part of the Dogmatic belief, the "supreme, uncontested and divine truth" which exists nowhere. I don't make assumptions there, I questioned and gave my opinion.
Studies can, and most of those are, biased. A psychologist a "doctor" who didn't made it to med school and very often they start their "studies" upside down: with the desired outcome forethought and just trying to prove that point.
But it's easy to take your challenge even without resourcing ancient cultures: Muhammad, the prophet, not that French guy in the news, married Bibi Ayesha when he was 54 and she was 6, consummating (means did her) when she was 9. Up to our days the "example of the prophet" is taken throughout most of the Islamic World. Gay pedophilia isn't ok with Islam just because the "gay" part, for "pedophilia" they've no issues with.
More widely open and for both ends, straight and gay, there was the Feudal Japan.
Also you assume you know how Natascha feels, but if you've the chance to speak with her, know her and she insists she doesn't feel bad or want any sort of revenge of her former captor? Will you start to doubt of those biased "studies"?
Being personal, my nany used to put me to do oral sex on her when I was about 5. Do I hate her? No, we're still friends, thous she doesn't put me to the same now. Do I have Stockholm Syndrome? Get real! Back in the 70's~80's pedophilia was widely spread and most of those who were kids back them hadn't developed anything... Remember the pedophile Dutch magazines of such time? Are all or most of the Dutch 30~40 y.o. under trauma?
What generates trauma isn't sex by itself, it's YOU telling the kid how disgusting was what s/he did and that s/he must feel bad about her/himself for had doing it.
There's also no such thing as "physically prepared but mentally no".
BTW, thanks for the ID offer, but I'm in no need for fake ID's ATM. I'll let you know if that changes ;D
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You took a step too far Peach. The rational thinking always should make you QUESTION and NEVER make ASSUMPTIONS. Assumptions are part of the Dogmatic belief, the "supreme, uncontested and divine truth" which exists nowhere. I don't make assumptions there, I questioned and gave my opinion.
Studies can, and most of those are, biased. A psychologist a "doctor" who didn't made it to med school and very often they start their "studies" upside down: with the desired outcome forethought and just trying to prove that point.
But it's easy to take your challenge even without resourcing ancient cultures: Muhammad, the prophet, not that French guy in the news, married Bibi Ayesha when he was 54 and she was 6, consummating (means did her) when she was 9. Up to our days the "example of the prophet" is taken throughout most of the Islamic World. Gay pedophilia isn't ok with Islam just because the "gay" part, for "pedophilia" they've no issues with.
More widely open and for both ends, straight and gay, there was the Feudal Japan.
Also you assume you know how Natascha feels, but if you've the chance to speak with her, know her and she insists she doesn't feel bad or want any sort of revenge of her former captor? Will you start to doubt of those biased "studies"?
Being personal, my nany used to put me to do oral sex on her when I was about 5. Do I hate her? No, we're still friends, thous she doesn't put me to the same now. Do I have Stockholm Syndrome? Get real! Back in the 70's~80's pedophilia was widely spread and most of those who were kids back them hadn't developed anything... Remember the pedophile Dutch magazines of such time? Are all or most of the Dutch 30~40 y.o. under trauma?
What generates trauma isn't sex by itself, it's YOU telling the kid how disgusting was what s/he did and that s/he must feel bad about her/himself for had doing it.
There's also no such thing as "physically prepared but mentally no".
BTW, thanks for the ID offer, but I'm in no need for fake ID's ATM. I'll let you know if that changes ;D
You make a shit ton of assumptions yourself. With nothing to back it up besides your own circular logic about "ASSUMPTIONS" or whatever.
Your total disregard for scientific study makes it pretty much impossible to have any actual back and forth discussion. If studies are always biased and useless, then we should just accept being ignorant. Just live our lives based on our own uneducated assumptions, right? Because no one can possible know more than you about any subject under the sun. There's no need to even go and look. Am I right?
Anti-intellectualism is so fucking frustrating.
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"Scientific study"... in social matters?! Where?!
If you go on personal detail you can find samples to support whatever you want.
What maths can you apply to social behaviors? You see, gravity attracts us all to the ground the same way, that's "scientific", but people does not act or react the same way for the very same thing.
I don't make "assumptions", I make doubts. I don't assume Natascha is happy, traumatized, with difficulty to deal with anger or what bullshit else, because only she knows what she feels, and it's not because some fucking bullshitter who pretends to be a "social scientist" comes with "a study" that I may assume I can know what the fuck she feels, for an instance.
And where in Hell did I said there's no need to go look? Of course it's needed, of course I can be wrong... but the whole nature of the subject is twisted to a sort of Dogma, where no objective sight takes place but external forethought instead.
Society seams to have a weird need for Devils. Back on the 60's there were the gays, and you could probably find someone casting the very same "Paraphilia" comments you see today on pedophiles about gay people. Today you probably would get arrested or harassed by "discrimination", go figure!
By the late 70's~80's, gays were no longer a paraphilia, suddenly they all got cured thanks to WHO, and the "junkies" became the new Devil, by 90's junkies became pitied and the new Devil became their dealers, by 2000's terrorism all the way, the new boogeyman in town, by the last half of 2000's to our days it's the pedophiles... who comes next? Maybe your "social scientists" can come up with the next group to demonize, I don't know.
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Wow, you're really mad.
Just because you don't understand how something applies doesn't mean that it doesn't. Reality doesn't require your comprehension.
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Mad?! For what? Not accepting «studies»? Get real!
Put things this way: When something happens to someone, if that person tells s/he's OK with it and s/he's happy, I just believe it. Despite what whatever «study» says in such grounds. It's her/his life, her/his body, her/his feelings, I'm nobody to judge that or make any assumption based either on «studies» or «what I would feel on her/his place». And certainly will not come with such a stupid argument as «you must now have a trauma»...
Does that makes me mad?
And no, it does NOT apply, may apply to the majority, after all is what we take for "normality", act as the "majority", because there's no such thing as "normality", but it doesn't mean it applies everywhere to everybody.
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Obviously we can't tell her how she feels. That would be rude and condescending. But you and I can have a intellectual discussion between ourselves, and others, about the possibilities and likelihoods of the whys and hows. I think we even have a responsibility to do it. We need to try and understand the impact of things like this, to try and figure out what is harmful behavior and what is not. It benefits us as a society, and as a species, to understand as much as we can.
You even admit that something may apply to the majority. So then a study must have some validity, even if it is not applicable across the board. It is still a valid attempt at understanding. It's still somewhat reliable. Just because your experiences affected you differently than the majority does not invalidate the majority. It simply makes you an anomaly.
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A study can measure what the majority thinks, or in sexual activity what the majority ASSUMES, as no study actually can get inside someone's brain to know if what you say is what you think or not.
But still a study or studies have a limited validity and legitimacy.
Take gay community, they were chased, murdered, arrested, compulsively put to mental institutions, tortured... in the past under that idea that if the majority is heterosexual and you're not you're an abnormal suffering of some disease.
And society took a shit load of centuries to come to realize that being different isn't necessarily bad and... it's a right you actually have.
From my sexual experience, I never did kids so I've no idea how or what they perform, but the most inept and mentally unprepared women in my bed one was 50 y.o. and the other a 26 y.o. virgin, the most magical, as it was discovery to us both, a 14 when I was 15.
Nevertheless already found my older daughter masturbating, I'm father of 2 one of 6 and other 10. My reaction was to look the other way and leave her in peace to explore her own body, as I'm her father not her owner. Should I take her as abnormal because accordingly to the fucking studies a 10 y.o. isn't prepared for sex, even own sexuality? GTFO!
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Dude, you are so far out in left field, I'm not even sure where to begin.
Homosexuals have been treated like shit because of religion. Not because science is evil and wants to make you conform. That's religion, tainting science. Does that mean we should throw science out the window? No, it means we should get religious values and morals out of the way, so that we can explore the issues without bias.
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Wrong dude. Most people just feel more comfortable into blame religion, even if religion was part of it, but it was psychologists of mid 1900's to support that same religious view. WHO (World Health Organization) is not a religion, you know? Proving exactly what I said early: "studies" are way too often started upside down, with the outcome forethought.
As for science, it isn't either good or bad, "pure science" is just that, science. Cold, it doesn't tell you want you want to hear, just tells you what it is.
The problem is that society is relative in all the ways, nothing can be taken as truth as today's truth is tomorrow's lie. So the human mind dodges science and no science can be done about it, you can come up with studies for whatever you want on such grounds but other than physiological functions all of them are tight to views and beliefs that can be that or otherwise, bound to a specific timeline and current World understanding.
Obviously we need some "line to follow", but we must be willing and always ready to relearn or reshape what he had learn... because what we do is more "go with what we have until something better comes along" other than "follow science" as "social sciences" are no science at all. Take fashion for an instance. WTF is that? Who the fuck dictates what color to use now? Or next season? Any possible logic can be applied there? No...
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If you're going to try and call fashion a social science, then I don't think we have anything more to talk about.
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"Social sciences" are like fashion, they answer to momentary beliefs or based on it. What can "social science" tells you? What immutable rules applies to make it a science? You can't change the laws of physics, they're the very same today as they were in the beginning of the Universe, and will remain so far beyond our existence. What can resemble it in a social context? "Social" bullshitters like to stick the word "science" just to give themselves credibility they otherwise know they don't have are not even entitled to.
You call me mad, but your irrationality and dogmatic arrogance is somewhat stupid... you can't contest or question the base or even seek rational grounds, you just go personally against me.
Let's start by a very simple thing: where are "social sciences" based on? Values, social values. And those are merely arbitrary. What you want? What value prevails over others? And why? Is pursuit of happiness a n "übber alles" value? Or is it security? Or love God? Our understanding keeps changing, so does our values or how much we prize them... so does "social science". Don't get me wrong, I don't say sociology or psychology are useless, they suit a purpose, just can't be read as real immutable scientific facts, because they aren't. They are mere generalizations and stereotypes, attempts to understand our World somehow... a noble purpose we seek from the beginning of times, but without any success so far.
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Science is just a method. There's nothing more to it than that. If you use that method, it's science.
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Let's start by a very simple thing: where are "social sciences" based on? Values, social values. And those are merely arbitrary. What you want? What value prevails over others? And why? Is pursuit of happiness a n "übber alles" value? Or is it security?
If you'd actually studied any social science at a higher level than wikipedia browsing then you'd know that these questions are raised within each subject. I don't think there is a single social science that actually tries to lay down scientific laws on the way people behave, in part due to the questions you raise. But that does not mean that studying human behaviour is completely useless, and as I've said most social sciences (Sociology for example) are well aware of the objections and questions you have posed, and people a lot smarter than you have written thousands and thousands of pages of research relating to them.
You don't really sound like you have a clue what you are talking about, and come across as rather ignorant to be honest. I'm guessing you didn't concentrate or get anywhere in school but now spend many late nights reading wikipedia and other websites and think the knowledge you have gained from this puts you on the same level as people who have actually spent years studying human behaviour.
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A psychologist a "doctor" who didn't made it to med school and very often they start their "studies" upside down: with the desired outcome forethought and just trying to prove that point.
lol after reading this I can see it is absolutely pointless to read the rest of your post.
A psychologist is not a doctor, and is never considered a doctor anywhere.
You are confusing with a psychiatrist who is in fact a doctor who finished med school and specialized in psychiatry.
Also you are absolutely ignorant about the vast spectrum of specialties in psychology, which is in fact a science.
If you ignored such basic facts, it is going to be pointless to be debating with you.
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@Locrian;
Yes, science is not a method, but science has a method, it's called the scientific method. And social sciences can't qualify for such by a simple reason, they fail in a required step. You see, for something to abide the scientific method I must be able to replicate your results using the same method you used. A plane doesn't take of differently at China than it does as US, they use the same data, the same knowledge to take of. Now... a "social scientific fact" at US doesn't verify at China. Where's the replication? Doesn't work...
@asymmetric;
"social science at a higher level"... whatever! Many years studying human behavior? Sure, they do... and still didn't make it to be scientists, go figure how complex we're. I contest the use of their data in rational discussions, not by being useless, but by being taken as supreme incontestable truths or even factual data, as they're neither. They qualify at best to determine what a majority thinks or a majority assumes to think.
@Peach;
Psychiatrists are for receipt you hard drugs cheap and in a legal manner. They don't usually look to defend "social sciences", for those you've mainly psychologists and sociologists, which, as stated above, can't provide scientific data, can't use the scientific method and, bottom line: Are not sciences.
@nomodeset;
From where in Hell do you think I'm a pedophile? Just because I rather discuss that thing instead of plainly and blindly condemn it? You make swift judgements as it seams...
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This guy really knows his science! I have to wonder what he's doing here, when he could be out curing cancer like a real, honest-to-god doctor. Not one of those ridiculous "psychologists" that everyone calls "doctors." Haha. Lunatics and posers, that's all they are! DaMan has opened my eyes.
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@DaMan
You are a joke and you are such an ignorant that I see that it is absolutely pointless to continue this discussion with you.
The worst part is that I used to be a smartass know-it-all like you, just like you, until I actually learned what's the reality out there.
You barely grasp a sophomoric level of understanding. If you ever manage to finish college and grasp a bit of graduate school studies, you will feel embarrassed when you look back at this thread and realize how pathetic were yourself.
Join academia and learn what science is really about, or become an armchair philosopher.
That's your choice.
Goodbye
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What a bunch of black & white minds!
So, if they are not "scientists" they're "good for nothing lunatics"...
Peach, other than your baloney about this is ok, the other is somewhat ok and the other yet is all ok, I heard nothing from you other than personal attacks.
I'm done with you too...
I'd to say I would think to find some rational discussion on the issue here, after all the same "social scientists" that state "any kid exposed to sex will develop traumas fair and square" are the same who states that "drug addicts are good for nothing who will do their lives thinking on nothing else than the drugs they do and can expect a very short life spawn with less than 10% of chances of recovery" or "everybody doing weed will jump to H later on", which are the basis of why drugs are forbidden or why some got their kids sized by the social services (or child salesman, which is what they resemble more these days)... if these are "scientific facts", then SR is wrong, being at SR is wrong... or, which I still DEFEND to be the case, they're NOT scientists, they've NO scientific facts, they just go on what they think or got paid to think or say.
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To the OP..."Yes Sir.....we'll do that right away Sir" What are you? A state shill? A cop? A fed or a politician? A "master of men"?
Funny how a person who is hiding behind an anonymizing system to avoid persecution by his government for his "crimes" wants to make fake ID's unavailable to those who might need them to escape persecution from THEIR governments.
Guns? Same thing. And SR has made concessions to his customers who would rather not see them on the main board in the case of guns. A best compromise to be sure.
It's the classic "My differences with "authority" (I just threw up a little in my mouth) are OK but yours need to be stopped" syndrome.
Has it occurred to you that the things SR allows can be used for purposes that do not absolutely constitute victimization or fraud and the things not allowed do?
Child porn? Its hard to say that is consensual, you would be really stretching things to even try so that is assault....a victimizing crime and therefore an actual crime.
Counterfitting? A clear cut case of fraud by claiming to hold value for exchange that you do not.....it can only lead to ripping someone off. Like the central banks do to us all.
Date rape drugs? Is that the ONLY use? Are there not people who take them to get high themselves? I really don't know but I wouldn't doubt it.
Meth? What's wrong with meth being used by a person who does not go out and attack others, steal from them or peddle it to school children? Isn't this person as OK with his choice in highs as you are with yours?
There is a clear cut pattern. It is NOT arbitrary. It is about natural rights. Some things only facilitate aggression or fraud, others are useful for self defense and private leisure, even if they might be used otherwise. Steak knives can be used for assault. That doesn't meant they will.
As far as social science goes I recognize only one capable of not falling victim to arbitrary interjections and outright manipulations by state influenced intellectuals....Praxeology.
It starts with the fact that by our very nature we MUST continually consume and we must do it within a framework of scarcity.
This, when close to said scarcity, tends to make our values VERY similar. When we are further out from the line of scarcity, or more wealthy, we have much more flexibility in how we rank a given set of goods from person to person.
This basic truth can allow any human with a mind to understand, a will to research, and a discipline of logical consistency to know truth in "social science" or human action and interaction (catallactics) without believing the voodoo put out by state apologists and cheerleaders.
Read Ludwig Von Mises. Arguably the greatest mind in "social science" left conspicuously absent from the pages of mainstream academia. His conclusion don't glorify the state but rather show it for what it is and its true effects on society. No wonder state textbooks don't have him there next to Lincoln or Wilson, two of the worst people to ever hold office for the power they collected in the executive, now being used to kill people all over the world.
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Nice text bp, you clearly come with some questions and points of view, some I'd never even though about.
What happens to von Mises however I believe is the same reason why someone decided to give me -2 karma, and a reason why I don't like "karma" or "opinion rating" systems: The majority has a huge difficulty to "unlearn", even if they learned it wrong, they will stick to their wrongness for as long as they could and will take anybody challenging their dogmas as "wrong". And this goes from "social sciences" to physics, to astronomy and basically all fields, except that unlike "social sciences" (and "economic sciences") where everything is arguable, physics and astronomers have a way to prove their points.
Bottom line: The major issue on take the red pill, is that most already took the blue one.
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What happened to Mises, and all other Austrian School adherents of his time, with the exception of FA Hayeck (dubious stuff there) is that they circled the wagons of academia and would not allow him a paid post. He was allowed to teach, in minimal fashion and with the constant berating of other faculty who often "warned" students to steer clear of his classes, but his salary had to be paid by the Volker Foundaition or he would not have got that far. Same with Murray Rothbard and Henry Hazlit.
Hayeck "won" the Noble Prize for his work on Austrian Business Cycle Theory but was made to share it with anonther economist who was a complete socialist, something very strange indeed.
Coincidentally enough, this happened the year after Mises died. Well, I don't think so, nor was it a coincidence that Hayeck chose NOT to demolish Keynes General Theory, which he could easily have done just as he flatlined Keynes previous work. Not a coincidence was Hayeck's less harsh take on government intervention, the reason he was chosen as the poster boy for the "new" Austrian school by Charles and David Koch and Lew Rockwell was threaten with "destruction" by said billionaires when he asked them for help starting the Mises Institute.
www.mises.org for you home players.
No, it wasn't merely falling out of fashion.....fashion was being manipulated and he needed to be silenced as best as possible for that to happen.
And your wrong that everything is arguable. Praxeologists do have a way to prove their point.
We must eat and food is scarce. Without maintain a constant supply of food mass starvation will happen. Is that arguable?
A human will make certain predictable choices, on average and depending on all other circumstances, when faced with death by scarcity. How do I know this to be true. Easy.....I'm human.
I'll give you difficulty unlearning, or more important how easy it is to hoodwink the masses sue to how little they seek ALL of the facts and are usually willing to accept what seems to be the prevalent beliefs. But that is cultural. Change the culture and you change that behavior.
Now, that culture, one of acceptance, usually of propaganda being handed down by authority, that the government has your back....and they are providing you with protection from bad guys and are keeping you feed the most current truths, is EXACTLY what was being manipulated into existence (or synthesized for you Hegelian fans) in the first place. And exactly what the (real) Austrians were warning about.
They seek to stamp out any sense of "buyer beware" because a strong culture of that doesn't bode well for them when they are pouring snake oil down our throats.
So please, help them do it by reinforcing their lies about vagary in economics and social sciences.....
Now, if there were only some way, somewhere, a person who might not be OK with all that "authority" claims to have a right to do to him.....a place where a person of this mindset might "unlearn" some of the cultural brainwashing and have a very strong sense of "buyer beware" beaten into him, the hard way if need be, and he will slowly learn to STOP running to big brother, STOP trying to form a "democracy" and vote his will onto others every time someone does something he doesn't like. Something HE sees as bad.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you....The Silk Road ;)
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I have never seen any CP here ever.
Fake passports aren't immoral or unethical in anyway, and guns are sold in The Armory, not here in the silk road.
I might be the only one, but it's troubling when people say "deep web".
Nothing about the .onion sites, or surfing with the onion-route technique makes it seem like a dark place filled with violent criminals.
I think that if you want to help a cause, let's say "decrease the use of meth" or "less guns" try to actually help the people in need rather than complain about the place where people get what they want.
This is a marketplace[, needs are met here.
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@DaMan
You can't even differentiate a psychologist from a psychiatrist.
Please, there is no point in continuing a debate with you, clearly your only source of information are random pages from the internet.
And that's not an ad-hominem attack, that's the fact that can be extrapolated from your incoherent rants.
Your seem to ignore the most fundamental epistemological knowledge, and debate of an area that you are absolutely oblivious of its actual scientific advances.
You absolutely ignore all the diverse ramifications of the social/psychological sciences and all the spectrum from Neuropsychology to Etology.
Please, next time you rant, at least have the decency of learning something.
Your biases impedes to see what is really going on, and your beliefs are in fact turning yourself in your worst enemy: a dogmatic... of his own lucubration.
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peach,
You keep jumping in conclusions way of hand... from where in hell did you took this one: «You can't even differentiate a psychologist from a psychiatrist.»?! Your own mind?
As for epistemology is even ridiculous that you come up with that, all your statements are full or certain, you can't and won't question anything, as everything that you know to you is a "scientific fact", therefore a "certain". If you know the basics of the Theory of Knowledge you would avoid it at all cost taken your early statements, as those are exactly the points I bring forward: What we know? How do we know it? What do people know? From where we know it?
These basic questions leads to yet another one: "Based on what know or think or believe to know what certain can we have?". I'd already learn enough to void a substantial percent of the knowledge I got from school... and hope to learn and "unlearn" much more.
Often people sticks to "old knowledge" based on the premise that that was knowledge acquired from people they like and trust, their parents, their teachers... well, "unlearn and re-learn" doesn't make your old folks or teachers looks dumb or taken as negative for giving you misleading data. They just passed what they knew at the time, it's your duty to seek more knowledge and eventually discard old knowledge which doesn't check anymore, you just managed to go beyond what they knew... it's called evolution.
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Mistakes or misinterpretations of results can be made at any area. We're not perfect or even close to it, so shit happens.
But some issues are way too erratic to can be "scientific", under the atomic theory some got it wrong, but the atomic behavior itself hadn't change, we just got it wrong... as probably we do about many other things. Under "social behaviors" however is not the calculation which is wrong, it's the subject itself that is a moving target, changing beliefs and behaviors in the blink of an eye, making it impossible to calculate.
Philosophy is way older than any of those "social sciences" working in the same ground, understanding or trying to understand human behavior, and never a philosopher had the need to call himself "scientist" for being a philosopher. So where did those Einsteins came from? Was humanity just wasting time with "non-scientific philosophers" whereas it can have "social scientists"?
«The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell»
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The portion of human action that is scientific and predictable is dubbed Praxeology by the Austrian School.
They were very much aware of the shortcomings of applying the epistemology gained from working in the physical sciences to human behavior, as well as the history of human analysis as mostly a psychiatric approach, if not a morality based one.
Probably the most concise and easiest reading work laying this out is the first section, summed up in the appendix A ad B, of Rothbard's "Man, Economy and State.
https://mises.org/rothbard/mes.asp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man,_Economy,_and_State
Now available in free audio for those who don't have a lot of reading time.
Itunes, rss, etc....
Well worth reading as it clears up exactly what has been the subject of the last several posts.
Can human action be a science? The Austrian School, the Misesian branch, clearly proves yes, but one must be careful to stick to Praxeolgy and not get drawn into psychology and morality based lines of argument if he wishes to keep it scientific. The IS and the OUGHT are 2 different things, though politicians and theologians would rather we didn't know that.
For fake ID's and kiddie porn, though covered to some degree by Rothbard in "The Ethics of Liberty" I would refer one to Walter Block's "Defending The Undefendable".
He would defend all the self depravity we want but nothing that directly aggresses against the rights of another. A fake ID only does that if it is someone elses ID and you steal it. CP always hinges on whether an undeveloped mind can be truly consensual in such matters.
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I'm horny, so horny horny horny
FTFY
FTFY? Isn't that the guy from "In Da Cluh" ?
You know, with the bottle fulla buh?
... He got dat ex if yuh inna takuh druh!
Nah nigga, he wannuh hah seh he ain intuh makin luh
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Spare us the indignation, OP. Who gives a fuck about some articles from BBC. The only thing that their coverage does is give the site publicity.
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Spare us the indignation, OP. Who gives a fuck about some articles from BBC. The only thing that their coverage does is give the site publicity.
Indeed McGoober - and there is no such thing as bad publicity!
Speaking as someone who doesn't deal in drugs but money I'm quite happy with SR offering a diverse range of services. Fake ID in the nature of things is necessary for drug users to safely entertain their personal habits - obviously if the law were to change then there would be no need for them, it's necessity that dictates our actions, not choice!
As for Child Pornography this is a difficult one - I have seen sites advertising this as well as couple of thinly veiled adverts on other forums offering it. I try to take the "gardening gloves" attitude to such matters.
A person buying a pair of gardening gloves could want to use them to prune their hedge. They could equally want to use them to conceal their fingerprints to commit a robbery. If however you said the answer was to ban the sale of gloves, I'm sure you'd find most people saying it's ridiculous!
We had problems with child abuse and indeed CP long before the internet came along (hell it was even legal in the Netherlands for a spell in the 70's!) and frankly I have seen more paedos and offers to view CP in public chatrooms like Yahoo than I have on here. To be frank they're not our problem!
V.
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I don't think there's child pornography or guns anymore on this site.
Just wait a little for the media to realize they're not there actually lol
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I jump here in the debate a lil' late on CP, because I'm kinda surprised of how naive you guys can be.
I mean, come ON, you are drug users, you KNOW how the medias can give you a bad name by taking the worst scenarios and make everyone believe it's the way it works for everyone.
Just like not all drug users are wasted junkies with 3 months to live, not all CP is about children being raped by careless adults and not all CP watchers are child abusers.
CP is a very wide thing that goes from two 17yo teenagers having consensual sex, filming it and posting it on the internet (or trading it privately actually, if they're caught, they'll be busted for CP), to sick fucks raping babies. And you have about EVERYTHING in between.
Just like you have about EVERYTHING between smoking a few weed joints once in a while and having your arms completely bruised because of repeated heroin injections.
Examples of child porn that are not about kids being raped are :
- Videos filmed by kids or teenagers themselves, usually videos of them fooling around, filmed with their webcam or their cell phone. Is way more usual than one might think, including staring young kinds (10yo or under).
- Videos of a child or teen (either girl or boy) masturbating in front of his or her webcam for someone else : sometimes they know the person watching them is an adult, sometimes they believe it's a kid their age. Sometimes they know it'll be posted on the internet, sometimes they don't. I've even seen kids actually going on pedo boards to post vids of themselves, including timestamp and all which proves that it was really them, their idea, and that they knew where they were posting this vids. I've also seen quite a few underage "camwhores" on 4chan too : don't tell me they didn't know what they were doing. Yet, it IS child pornography.
- Videos of CONSENSUAL sex between children, or between a child and an adult. Believe me or not, that exists. I'm pretty sure it would be frown upon if I did so I'm not going to link you to an example, but there are some videos in which you really can't believe, if you're being honest with yourself, that the kid is in any way forced, or endangered, or unhappy, or abused. Now of course I'm not talking about preschoolers getting it in the ass. I'm talking about, for example, boys aged 10-12, on the verge of puberty, being horny as a boy can be. Believe me or not : you can tell they're having a good time. Heh, weren't you never horny at age 11 ? I know I were...
There are also videos where consent is more questionable : for example old videos from the 70s staged in Denmark at a time where CP was legal : the kids are doing porno for a market, and they're pretty much like child actors... except for porn. Well they don't seem to be hurt, some actually seem to have a good time, but as soon as there's a market and money involved, it's not only fun and games anymore.
Now, there are also of course a whole lot of videos of non-consensual sex, or videos where the kids are like "meh" but will probably feel bad about it later. But you just can't say all the CP world is about that. It's simply not true.
But anyway, I agree with CP not being sold on SR. Actually I agree on CP not being sold at all. As soon as CP becomes a market, one creates incentive for people to make CP even if they wouldn't have done it otherwise, and even if kids don't agree, just to make some money. If there's no market, if everything's free, then there's no incentive. If there's no incentive, it means no abuse just for the sake of creating CP.
In other words : if you can sell/buy CP, then CP will be a CAUSE of child sex, including sometimes child abuse. Which is clearly unacceptable. If you can't, if there's no market thus no incentive, then CP will only be a mere CONSEQUENCE of child sex, including sometimes child abuse. Not a cause. Which makes it much less immoral because even if it hadn't been posted anywhere, that sexual relationship (whether you find it moral or not) would have happened anyway.
So yeah, CP on SR ? Hell no! Clearly wrong. I'm glad they don't allow that. But CP only being about child abuse? Sorry, but that's as false as drugs only being about broken families and ODing junkies.