Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: ForeverFamily on January 25, 2012, 12:17 am
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We really feel like it will draw much unneeded attention and could even possibly get agencies funding for an investigation they could not get as easily if it were strictly drugs and other minor things... Does this bother anybody else? It will make it much easier for them to label us as terrorists if we dabble in arms dealing and shipping. Any other thoughts on this?
--Foreverfamily
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SR is an agorist community, the admin identifies with the principles of agorism, and I do not believe he would prohibit them.
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I too agree. You would think people would be smart enough to figure that out on their own, but I guess greed prevails! There's already other places for that like Black Market Reloaded.
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I would like to see guns, as guns will prevent the head admins of this world from crushing us if they so please. I can see both sides of this debate but I fall on the gun toting side. Guns will be what saves America in the end. 8)
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As stated there are plenty of other places to get weaponry than the Silk Road..
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I could do without guns and a few other items but how much can we dictate the direction of an agorist community. Sure there are alternatives but none with all the perks of SR. Perhaps for some, certainly not all. Maybe a new community with a different ideology will rise, using a similar platform which SR has modeled so well. Who is to say?
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Unfortunately it would be strange to ban guns on SR. Once we start with guns, whats next? Banning is bad. Hopefully no one buys any of the guns and the demand will cease so there is no point to sell guns.
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I am a staunch supporter of the free market and for that matter free society. Having these values means that I must accept people to be self-governing, that my beliefs are not necessarily those that are shared by the people around me. Unfortunately, that means that I also have to accept that there are people in the world that would choose to harm me or worse yet, choose to harm children if given the opportunity.
The fact is, restricting people from things (drugs, alcohol, weapons, child pornography) never really results in positive social changes, what's required is a revolution of the mind, for everyone to stay to themselves "regardless of availability or profit, I choose not to buy/sell/view/do things that may cause harm to another".
Perhaps we shouldn't regard SR as the poster child for agorism or free market, rather we should just think of it as the cool little club where we come to hang out, chat shit, buy drugs and peace out. If that's the case we could happily remove weapons without seeming oppressive or hypocritical. Happy days. /end rant
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I totally agree that we should not ban guns on SR. That would go against what everyone on here stands for. That being said, for the small part of SR that guns will make up in comparison to drugs, what 99.9% of us are here for, I think people should think of the majority, and not do something that may ultimately lead to the demise of what we all love and support so very much. I know in the end greed and selfishness will win out, but I'd like to think in a rare community like this, people would have the decency to respect the majority. In my mind, this is a peaceful community of people just trying to be free, and do what they want without scrutiny, and as soon as you put guns in the mix, no matter what, it turns this place into a haven for supporting terrorism to anyone who doesn't know better, and the ABC's will have no choice but to make it a priority to take this place down. Just my .02 BTC worth
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The guns are what make this site an agorist community. As long as you aren't harming anyone and are engaging in voluntary exchange, then there can be no restrictions placed on that activity. I can't say what has already been said on this thread any better, especially blueangel and others, but I will add one thing. Guns are tools, just like a hammer. Both can be used for good or ill. In fact guns are the great equalizer and have saved many lives. Are we going to ban hammers? "God made all men. Samuel Colt made all men equal." Keep the guns!!! If you don't like them don't buy one!
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I've said it before and I will say it again, guns will be the end of SR. Selling guns sparks the emotions of LE unlike any dope we got here. If this gun trade starts up, you can kiss the "Revolution" goodbye.
Peace
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guns aren't going to "end" SR. the feds figuring out who runs this place will end SR.
here's the deal. i believe it everyone's right to own a gun. some of us are fortunate enough to live in countries where we can legally obtain one and have a legitimate use for it (protecting ourselves and the ones we love).
those who seek out to do harm are going to do harm with our without a high-velocity shaped soft-metal projectile. There are countries who ban guns so that the only the police/military and the criminal have them - quelling the population into a state of fear and non-rebellion.
I seriously think this is the path the US is headed...just give us another 20 years.
I believe in freedom. Freedom to protect myself from those who would do me harm. I can legitimately order a .40cal semi-auto pistol because I live in a country where the laws haven't subjected me to dis-ownership.
Please remember that not everyone is going to use a gun to kill someone, at least, someone who isn't trying to kill, harm or take what is not theirs.
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It doesn't matter if we know they're using them for the right purposes. The people who read the papers and watch the news won't. They'll just hear that their children cannot only buy drugs now on the Silk Road they can get guns too! Think how that's gunna spark em up! Watch how long it takes before this entire community is labeled as drug abusing weapon smuggling terrorists. It's not good guys... It's gunna bring a lot of heat I don't think we want..
--Foreverfamily
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We really feel like it will draw much unneeded attention and could even possibly get agencies funding for an investigation they could not get as easily if it were strictly drugs and other minor things... Does this bother anybody else? It will make it much easier for them to label us as terrorists if we dabble in arms dealing and shipping. Any other thoughts on this?
--Foreverfamily
Move 2 China you wont have to worry about having the freedom of guns. And to all the people that say guns would be the catalyst for the end of Silk Road, you need to review the federal budget and focus on money spent by the government to control drugs as compared to the money allocated for controlling guns. Guns are a big issue for some people in government but drugs are a huge issue for many more people in the government. Much more time and effort is spent combating drugs than trying to prevent criminals from owning/selling/distributing guns. For all the press Silk Road has got I just keep seeing drugs in bold letters and on the headline of the story. While guns are usually not even mentioned and when they are it isnt to the extent that drugs are mentioned.
Pissy liberals that have a problem with guns should go hang out in countries were the government doesnt allow citizens to be armed. Every citizen that has not been definitively proven to of committed a serious offense and is mentally stable should own a gun. I fear the government far more then I fear an armed citizen or even an armed criminal for that matter.
And for you people that say there are many other places we can buy guns so they shouldn't be sold on Silk Road I say there are many other places you can buy drugs so they shouldnt be sold on Silk Road. Do you understand how flawed that logic is?
Just say the truth, that the real reason you dont want guns on Silk Road is because they arnt something YOU buy so you dont care about them being sold here. Each one of you liberals will change your tune if you become the victim of a crime that could of been prevented had you been armed.
The US gov spends so much more money on LE for drugs than guns that its safe to say that any1 making these anti-gun statements must be a drug user because you gotta be high not to realize the low priority people selling guns are compared to the people selling drugs.
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i say it again: you're a fucking idiot :D
you impersonate all that i hate about america. i do not know you or your circumstances any further, but i'm sure you're the stereotype of an amerifaggot; fat, white, bored, stupid (well stupid should be in first place?)
i hope you die soon!
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.... For all the press Silk Road has got I just keep seeing drugs in bold letters and on the headline of the story. While guns are usually not even mentioned and when they are it isnt to the extent that drugs are mentioned.
Looking at it from a US perspective and reading US news, maybe. But SR is a global community and attracts global media interest. If gun availability and interest increases on SR, I can guarantee that certainly from a UK/EU perspective, gun sales would be the headline.
I can only hope there is limited interest. Otherwise, it's just another route of attack against SR. People interested in getting a quick personal fix is one thing, buying a gun is a complete new ball game.
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In this life, some things are absolute. Some things are relative. Wisdom is knowing which are which.
Killing people is never 'always wrong'. It usually goes against our instincts as a general principal we dislike the entire subject (whilst being weirdly fascinated by it in horror novels/films and murder/forensic mysteries).
However we have been killing each other ever since we existed. Hence to say that 'killing is unnatural' is idiocy. Doesn't fit the facts.
That doesn't mean indiscriminate violence is to be approved of. But it does mean that having a absolutist morality about murder is absurd.
There are clearly many situations in which killing people is entirely appropriate. I didn't shed many tears which Osama Bin Laden died because his plot to kill 3000 odd people who were regular civilians was wrong. So fuck that guy.
On the other hand, if Osama Bin Laden killed 3000 soldiers, then that is not wrong in the same way. Soldiers have signed up for that risk. They know they are targets of killers and are prepared for it. In some sense, this is fair. I'm not advocating killing soldiers here, I don't like war because it frequently disrupts social and economic progress for the worse. I'm saying playing the game by the rules is completely different to mass indiscriminate slaughter of civilians for their nationality, ethnicity, belief system etc.
You takes your ticket and you takes your chances. You shouldn't hurt 3rd parties to weaken the enemy because that is cowardly. It's a basic principal of justice i.e. one should not punish the son for the sins of his father.
Killing the enemy on the other hand, is always legitimate when they are seeking your demise.
So, in response to the Gun Question. It depends.
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100% American nailed it. Let me get this straight, FF.... So guns, inanimate objects which have no potential for addiction, are bad. But drugs, which cause untold levels of suffering through addiction and the destruction of babies in utero and the collapse of the family unit, are good? The level of hypocrisy it takes to make an assertion like that is astounding. This site is about FREEDOM. Whatever floats your boat without sinking mine. That's what it's all about. Personal choice! If we were to start making rules and banning things then there is literally no end to it. Next it will be ban the porno, then ban the smack but coke is ok. You are opening a serious can of worms with your own mental hang ups. I don't think FF and others are proper agorists or libertarian anarchists. This isn't the site for you guys.
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Exactly, this is a free market. It should and must remain free. If you stick up for drug sales, you MUST also stick up for gun sales. No cherry picking. Don't like it, don't buy it. But you are obligated to defend the right of another to both sell and buy guns. Otherwise, you become a hypocrite of the worse kind.
I personally, would not buy a gun off silk road. But I sure as hell am going to support and defend those who wish to engage in such trade. Or for any other illicit type of trading.
Why? There is a great saying...
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I was Protestant.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Meditate on that before you worry so much about your own self interests and worldview.
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.... So guns, inanimate objects which have no potential for addiction, are bad. But drugs, which cause untold levels of suffering through addiction and the destruction of babies in utero and the collapse of the family unit, are good?
Oh my god. Did you really just say that? :o
Drugs are responsible for all sorts of crime and suffering, no argument. But I have a feeling that those cute little innocent "inanimate objects which have no potential for addiction" may also be responsible for a tiny bit of suffering as well. No?
I don't think anybody is saying guns are bad, drugs are good. But it will not help this site if the gun trade increases here, that's what concerns most people. So if freedom at all costs is acceptable, then fine. Accept the cost.
Like the majority on here, I came to SR so I can get some nice quality recreational drugs for occasional personal use. Not guns. But I understand the political ethos of SR, so if that means gun sales increase here, I just think it will be it's downfall. And that would be a shame.
And what's with this argument that if you stick up for drug sales, you MUST stick up for gun sales? That makes no sense at all. Using that argument we must also stick up for child porn. Freedom of choice right? No, I don't think so. Moral limits do exist don't they? Don't they?? If that makes me a hypocrite, then fair enough. I can live with it.
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Yep, I personally detest child porn. But a free market must be free. That's the price paid for freedom.
There are some who want this place shut down for the sole reason that drugs are being sold. That is their moral "cutoff" point or limit. Even though it is not yours personally. Or some that think selling coke or LSD is just way too over the top, but are OK with weed.
Morality is relative. And in a true free market morality has no place except in the individual's mind.
And think about it. Society at large is not OK with you buying drugs. It's dirty and wrong in their POV. But here you are buying drugs because someone made a way for you to do that. Don't you think it's pretty stupid and hypocritical after being shunned by society at large to come up in here and do what you don't like being done to you by society at large to someone else?
If selling guns attracts more attention, then so be it. It would only hasten the inevitable. LEO and the powers that be don't want this place to exist, period. They'll use any excuse to get the resources necessary. They could even use a kid who overdoses on a drug bought here as a poster child call to arms.
As I said prior, no cherry picking. It's all or none at all. Otherwise you're just here for your own self interests and don't really care about the movement and what it represents.
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You couldn't pay me 2 million to receive a gun in the mail... Lot different than a lil L or hash... No hash or L i ever got has been involved in a crime or a murder. That's what I'd be most worried about.
And... With all the gun shows EVERYWHERE in the USA, you'd have to be a moron to pay these guys prices anyhow... Cash transactions between people that attend the gun show are common place, no names get recorded or even exchanged. Go a state away from where you live if you want to be sure you avoid detection. Guns are the easiest "illegal" thing to buy legally. I could walk out of a gun show with 4 guns, maybe more, for what one of the guns on SR sells for.
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You couldn't pay me 2 million to receive a gun in the mail... Lot different than a lil L or hash... No hash or L i ever got has been involved in a crime or a murder. That's what I'd be most worried about.
And... With all the gun shows EVERYWHERE in the USA, you'd have to be a moron to pay these guys prices anyhow... Cash transactions between people that attend the gun show are common place, no names get recorded or even exchanged. Go a state away from where you live if you want to be sure you avoid detection. Guns are the easiest "illegal" thing to buy legally. I could walk out of a gun show with 4 guns, maybe more, for what one of the guns on SR sells for.
Which is precisely why most of the guns are actually going from America to Europe. Europeans are willing to pay $1000 - $10000 USD for a gun that probably costs $300 in the USA.
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You couldn't pay me 2 million to receive a gun in the mail... Lot different than a lil L or hash... No hash or L i ever got has been involved in a crime or a murder. That's what I'd be most worried about.
And... With all the gun shows EVERYWHERE in the USA, you'd have to be a moron to pay these guys prices anyhow... Cash transactions between people that attend the gun show are common place, no names get recorded or even exchanged. Go a state away from where you live if you want to be sure you avoid detection. Guns are the easiest "illegal" thing to buy legally. I could walk out of a gun show with 4 guns, maybe more, for what one of the guns on SR sells for.
Which is precisely why most of the guns are actually going from America to Europe. Europeans are willing to pay $1000 - $10000 USD for a gun that probably costs $300 in the USA.
It's true...cheapest gun price on the street I ever got quoted was 1200 ($1900-ish) for some shitty looking handgun..not really worth buying one over here unless you deal coke.
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Interesting debate.
I have to say when I was browsing the other day I saw guns and my first thought was - that arms being dealt will get a lot more international focus to bring this place down than drugs.
It may not in the USA where you can get guns easily, but other countries will react differently.
Really, people are not that bothered about a few drugs being sold, they will be about guns.
But then, if this is meant to be a free market then I guess it would be hypocritical to say yes to one illegal thing and not another.
But for me personally, I would like this place to be somewhere to buy drugs. I don't like the guns and I certainly would not like to see child porn sold and things like that. I t would probably put me off the place for good.
I may be a hypocrite, but I would rather sale of things that are specifically harming others or meant to do so was not part of this place.
But as someone said - there is a price to freedom?
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Yeah, it is an interesting debate, no matter what side you sit.
One thing that effects my (UK) point of view though....things are obviously different over here where guns are banned, so we have a different attitude. If someone from the UK were to buy a gun from here, it would be meant for violent use without a doubt. In fact I would assume 99% of weapons sold here are for violence. Whats' the point in taking the huge risk just to shoot rabbits? And most folks from the US could go buy one anyway. So it's not just about gun sales, it's there obvious intended use.
It's one thing supporting a free market at all costs, but another to support something that will no doubt, at some point, be used to take away somebody's ultimate freedom. And that would also make me a hypocrite.
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Gaia you have it all wrong! Your euro world view and school indoctrination has warped your sense of the truth. Guns AND drugs are INANIMATE objects. They don't DO anything to anyone. It takes a human being to use either one for nefarious purposes. A person in Europe could order a gun they have have no intent of ever using except for home defense, just the reason I keep mine. I raise my hand ONLY in defense! Trap and target shooting is BIG FUN and that is what the overwhelming majority of guns are used for in Europe as well as the US. Additionally, an armed populace has always been the only thing that has kept tyranny in check. In most European countries the real reason the populace has been disarmed is to maintain the political status quo, not to keep people safe. The elite could give a flying shit if the poor kill each other. But those same guns the poor use on each other can be used to take out a monarch, and the elites aren't having that. And about the child porn thing- the assertion that child porn must be allowed in a free society is absurd. The whole purpose of agorism and libertarianism is to have the freedom to do as you like as long as no one else is victimized. Research the non-aggression principle (NAP)! Child abuse does NOT fit into this model. In fact, that would be the one case where I WOULD use my weapon in a situation where I was not in personal danger- in defense of helpless children. Chomos = shit.
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I don't want to see guns here either. I am not going to give my view on if guns should be sold or not, but lets pick our battles guys... This is the perfect opportunity for media to blow this place way out of proportion and get the funding they need to come after us.
and the thread in the product offers section for "weaponized plutonium for sale" ??!? Even though it's obviously bullshit, something like that can bring a lot of unwanted eyes..
those are just my thoughts..
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Boy oh boy, I see some slippery slope thinking going on.
Let's go with banning guns because it offends some sensibilities. Fine. Yay we did it! Whoo hooo.
Then some think Crystal Meth is just so nasty and harmful. If offends the sensibilities. Hey, have you seen the documentaries about what happens to those hooked on crystal meth? We must therefore ban it. Ummph!
Then some think, OMG, opiates are evil nasty shit. With H being the worst of the lot. It's so harmful. Have you seen what someone on withdrawal has to go through. I don't want to associated with that. Let's ban it.
Then perhaps another will think, weed destroys the mind. I read this article and it shows what happens to the frontal lobe of a pothead over time. My god that's harmful. We must ban that also.
Mmm Hmmm... you see where this is going don't you? All your subjective nonsense is exactly what happened in society such that you need to turn to a place like this. And then you have the audacity to try to enforce your will on those in this community? Come on people. Get real.
It's a free market. Sales must dictate what can and can't be sold. Not your personal sensibilities.
As stated, I personally object to child porn. Makes me sick. But so what? That's my personal issue. If people want to trade in a free market, child porn, I'll simply pass over it and get to the illicit drugs I like. I have no desire whatsoever to trade in firearms or explosives. So? I simply don't.
The argument that guns will bring more heat down on this place is valid in part. But again, if a teen overdoses on drugs bought off silk road, you can believe that will also have the same effect. I can dream up other scenarios that will lead to a call of arms against this place. American LEO would love, love, love to take this place down simply for selling drugs and using virtual currency. Adding guns won't get them any more hot and bothered than they already are. In Europe perhaps it will. So what? It means now you have an international effort to take the place down. But we all know American law enforcement is the one to worry about.
As for NAP, it's arbitrary. One man's harm is another's pleasure. See my examples above. Everything sold on SR can and does cause harm.
Stop being silly and so concerned about your own self interests and sensibilities. Remember, there are many more that think this place shouldn't exist because they are simply offended by the drug trade that goes on here. Don't be like them. Free yourself. Free your mind. Live and let live is the price you are going to have to bear. In that is no relativity or subjectivity bullshit. It's purely objective and holistic.
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you liberals need to stop whining.
guns>drugs
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You guys that want guns off of SR aren't getting it. YOU AREN'T GETTING IT!
Banning ANYTHING for sale on SR would go against the constitution of SR. It is a FREE market. Banning guns won't solve anything, it will in fact make it worse. I don't advocate violence, but banning is not the right choice of moderation. Society is the problem, not guns. There are plenty of people that own guns and are very kind and loving people.
Okay lets do a little philosophy here. This is the argument against guns:
Guns are bad because they kill people.
Bad things must be banned.
Guns must be banned.
What else kills people? Drugs.
Drugs kill people.
Therefore drugs are bad.
Bad things must be banned.
Drugs must be banned.
See your logic here? It's not sound, unfortunately. I really wish it would be as easy as not selling guns on SR to make everyone feel better, but that wound solve ANYTHING.
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I don't think people don't "get it". They may just not all like it.
The reason I don't like it is because there is no doubt in my mind it is what will get this place shut down.
That doesn't mean i don't "get" what a free market means - it just means I don't think there will be one much longer.
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I don't think people don't "get it". They may just not all like it.
The reason I don't like it is because there is no doubt in my mind it is what will get this place shut down.
That doesn't mean i don't "get" what a free market means - it just means I don't think there will be one much longer.
The thing that got this site in the news so far was drugs, not guns. They can't get this place down since it's decentralized anyway
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I don't think people don't "get it". They may just not all like it.
The reason I don't like it is because there is no doubt in my mind it is what will get this place shut down.
That doesn't mean i don't "get" what a free market means - it just means I don't think there will be one much longer.
The thing that got this site in the news so far was drugs, not guns. They can't get this place down since it's decentralized anyway
I "get it" . I'm leaving personal beliefs out of it when i say i don't like seeing guns here. I'm just saying, that i love this place, and i think we need to be careful about how we go about things.
Maybe we can specialize in a drug market place, and let another market take care of the weaponry stuff? So not take a stance on whether we are for or against guns, but just that it is sort of off topic for this marketplace
I don't know... I'm just worried that having threads in the product offers forum for "weaponized plutonium" can only be harmful for the forum, regardless of how much of a troll thread it was...
my 0.02
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Gotta disagree about allowing everything to be sold in a free market...
Guns can be used in ways that do not involve criminal activity. No crime equals no victim. If I want to buy a gun to hunt, shoot skeet, or simply to add to my collection, I should not be subject to governmental restriction because some people MIGHT commit crimes with them. I could use my car to kill someone, but cars aren't illegal.
Drugs can be used in ways that aren't criminal. No crime equals no victim.
Illegal drugs, while criminal by definition, are examples of consensual crimes. Consensual crime has no victim. A drug user gives informed consent when he takes a drug. He is responsible for his own actions, and for whatever effect the drug has on him.
Child pornography is a different beast entirely. It is illegal, and victimizes the children involved. One cannot posses child pornography without a child having been victimized in the process of making it. Below a certain age, a child simply cannot give informed consent. Below what age? Who knows... It probably depends on the child, but I'm not talking about "teen porn" here, I'm talking about kiddie porn.
While I am against all forms of censorship by government, I do not find it objectionable for a free market like Silk Road to maintain a certain standard, and for such a standard to be policed by the community at large. I don't consider the victimization of a child in order to produce a product to be concentric with the principles of agorism.
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every US citizen has the right to bear arms. In california it takes forever with background checks, etc before you can even get one. I'd rather have one delivered to my door than travel to Nevada or Arizona to a gun show. The bad guys already have guns. I'm a good person who has the right to protect myself and my family from someone who threatens my life or home. Heroin can kill a person just as easily as a gun.
On a side note i was thinking of buying the grenade launcher thats for sale on SR, but decided against it after researching what kind of carnage that weapon could cause if it backfires.
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Would somebody please care to explain to me how in the fucking world you even ship a gun?
How do you get something like this through international customs?
Personally, you could not pay me money to receive a gun in the mail. I am positive that if a gun was found being sent to you, it would surely be followed up by law enforcement unlike drugs which are easily disregarded.
I would prefer if we did not allow gun sales because I too think it attracts an unnecessary amount of unwanted attention but I do understand that this a free market and can also see why we allow it.
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There's a lot of shit that I DON'T want to see on SR, and I agree that if SR gets a reputation for being a source of guns (which, really, will only take one European murderer admitting he got his gun from here - Americans can't really fathom it, but shootings in Europe are so rare that they're typically jaw-dropping-OMG-front-page news) that this site will be in trouble. America might rant and rave about drugs, but most of the world doesn't give two shits, and as much as they'd like, America can't bring this site down by itself. Guns will bring a worldwide crackdown and a vast international effort to find SR and shut it down by any means necessary.
That being said, to ban guns (or, for that matter, banning anything) would instantly end this experiment in a truly free market. It may mean that Silk Road gets shut down someday. It may mean that we have to tolerate things we find immoral, like date rape drugs and the aforementioned child pornography. But I really don't want to see Silk Road lose its lofty ideals.
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Gotta disagree about allowing everything to be sold in a free market...
While I am against all forms of censorship by government, I do not find it objectionable for a free market like Silk Road to maintain a certain standard, and for such a standard to be policed by the community at large. I don't consider the victimization of a child in order to produce a product to be concentric with the principles of agorism.
Think deep about what you're saying. You are most definitely missing the point and are being hypocritical. Policed by the community? That's exactly what society at large has done making a place like this necessary. Where does it stop? Ban guns then ban what else next? Some other thing people decide is no longer acceptable? Silk Road must never be dictated to by the whims and changeable sensibilities of any one person or group. Otherwise we're right back to where we started except it will just be an alternate society which mirrors the one at large.
Realize that there are people here who may take objection to H or cocaine being sold. If enough of them with similar sensibilities were to band together to make their voice heard, those things could potentially be banned. And so on and so forth until the only thing agreed upon is the sale of weed.
The point of SR is not to have your voice heard as in a democracy where a slight majority can disenfranchise a large or small group of others based on their sensibilities or beliefs. The point of SR is a free market. Where sales dictate what is sold.
I love SR also. But if selling guns increases the likelihood of it being shut down (which has no substantiated basis other than fear). So be it. At least it died standing for something unique, noble and pure and not some mere subset of society at large with slightly differing rules.
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Having some experience in the markets of Mogadishu and the likes, I'll say nobody is buying a $2000 USD AR on here who can get it for $15, freshly dug up from the desert. As far as Europeans go... Well, if they're so afraid of guns then they should at least be able to catch them on xray through the post. It's not about where you get them, ask any dealer worth half a shit and he can get you a ghetto blaster. Guns aren't going anywhere and if they don't come from here, they'll come from somewhere else. Or has there been some sudden skyrocket in Euro shooting deaths since SR began offering guns?
Tor, and SR in general are all or nothing. You are free, or not free. You accept other people's wants and needs and they accept yours. There are plenty of gun enthusiasts who would never dream of touching illicit drugs and would probably label them just as evil. They aren't trying to take away your rights.
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........ At least it died standing for something unique, noble and pure and not some mere subset of society at large with slightly differing rules.
You can cut it both ways. there is nothing "noble and pure" about selling videos of children being abused. The ideology you are saying is noble and pure is very happy to do just that.
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........ At least it died standing for something unique, noble and pure and not some mere subset of society at large with slightly differing rules.
You can cut it both ways. there is nothing "noble and pure" about selling videos of children being abused. The ideology you are saying is noble and pure is very happy to do just that.
No, you can't cut it both ways. Remove your sensibilities from the equation and you'll see it for what it is.
There are many, many who think there is nothing noble about selling illicit drugs. But because your particular sensibility finds nothing wrong with it, you're fine with it. See? Silk Road as it is, removes varying and changing personal sensibilities from the equation and let's only market forces dictate what is viable or not. And that's the way it is supposed to be.
Hey, if a certain drug falls out of favor, guess what? It won't be sold anymore. And that has happened. We didn't need the vocalization of variable and changeable sensibilities and individual morals to make that happen. They simply weren't selling in a quantity enough to make it worth the seller's while.
In that is the noble effort of Silk Road. It allows only market forces to dictate. Where else in the world can you say that is the case without outside artificial intervention?
Now do you understand? If not, oh well. Likely it won't matter because those who run Silk Road will stick to their ideal and protect it as best they can from outside and internal forces that would seek to dictate to it.
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BenJesuit - I understand and have understood all along. But I am here because I can buy good quality drugs - not for any political reasons and not to support any notion of freedom.
The reasons I personally would rather it was just for that are selfish, not ignorant.
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I really don't want to see guns in Walmart. So I don't shop there.
It's a free market people.
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There are many, many who think there is nothing noble about selling illicit drugs. But because your particular sensibility finds nothing wrong with it, you're fine with it. See? Silk Road as it is, removes varying and changing personal sensibilities from the equation and let's only market forces dictate what is viable or not. And that's the way it is supposed to be.
It's clear this is a divisive topic and we will never agree. But I'm curious, lets get this clear...in your view, anything should be up for grabs in the 'free' market that is SR yes? So lets follow your logic in a literal/hypothetical sense;
Drugs: OK
Guns: OK
RPG's: OK
Semtex: OK
Nuclear waste: OK
Long range nuclear missiles: OK
Biological weapons: OK
Child porn: No problem
The doomsday bug that will wipe humanity off the earth: Fine and dandy; make me an offer.
All OK with you because in a literal sense it falls within the free market ideology.
OK, I'm being a tiny bit facetious. But you have to agree with all of the above, because if you follow your argument through, that's where it could take you - there is no end to it's madness.
So it would seem freedom at any cost, even at the cost of other people's freedom? Nah, I don't buy that kind of twisted ideological hypocrisy at all.
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There are many, many who think there is nothing noble about selling illicit drugs. But because your particular sensibility finds nothing wrong with it, you're fine with it. See? Silk Road as it is, removes varying and changing personal sensibilities from the equation and let's only market forces dictate what is viable or not. And that's the way it is supposed to be.
It's clear this is a divisive topic and we will never agree. But I'm curious, lets get this clear...in your view, anything should be up for grabs in the 'free' market that is SR yes? So lets follow your logic in a literal/hypothetical sense;
Drugs: OK
Guns: OK
RPG's: OK
Semtex: OK
Nuclear waste: OK
Long range nuclear missiles: OK
Biological weapons: OK
Child porn: No problem
The doomsday bug that will wipe humanity off the earth: Fine and dandy; make me an offer.
All OK with you because in a literal sense it falls within the free market ideology.
OK, I'm being a tiny bit facetious. But you have to agree with all of the above, because if you follow your argument through, that's where it could take you - there is no end to it's madness.
So it would seem freedom at any cost, even at the cost of other people's freedom? Nah, I don't buy that kind of twisted ideological hypocrisy at all.
Yep, all of it. Nothing twisted about it. It's logically pure if you don't intermix your or my sensibilities into it.
Even though I'm personally opposed to all those things on the list, I know it's not my call to say what can and can't be sold here. You really need to understand that. You will eventually because there's nothing you or I can do about it. Except perhaps we can leave and start our own market. Or buy drugs elsewhere.
There are certain types of drugs that I am opposed to that are sold here. So what? Do you really care? doubtful. You may in fact enjoy some of those drugs. I don't know. But I don't try to impose my sensibilities on you or those who buy the drugs I am personally opposed to.
Hopefully you understand the point now. Sure you can dislike guns being sold here. No problem, no issue. I don't care for it either. But if you try to stop them from being sold here, then you do so based on your own sensibilities which you are trying to hypocritically impose on another. How is that right? This place exists because people in society imposed their sensibilities on you preventing you from acquiring drugs by ordinary means. Now you're going to turn around and do the same to others simply because your sensibilities are offended? Wow. I sure hope not.
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OK, I'm being a tiny bit facetious. But you have to agree with all of the above, because if you follow your argument through, that's where it could take you - there is no end to it's madness.
So it would seem freedom at any cost, even at the cost of other people's freedom? Nah, I don't buy that kind of twisted ideological hypocrisy at all.
That argument is a straw man. There is a clear line stated in the seller's guide:
http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/index.php/silkroad/sellers_guide
Please do not list anything who's purpose is to harm or defraud, such as stolen items or info, stolen credit cards, counterfeit currency, personal info, assassinations, and weapons of mass destruction (chemical/bio weaponry, nukes, and anything used to make them).
Please do not list anything related to pedophilia.
Read the link for more details.
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If you want a gun, get a license. They're available legally just about everywhere. Most drugs are not. When people get hurt or die from guns, unless it's suicide, it's because someone else shoots them. When people get hurt or die through drug use/abuse, it's usually their own fault. Personally, I'd rather not see guns sold here on SR but a free market is a free market.
Regarding LEO finding even more reason to try to shut this place down (if they can even do that), this whole enterprise is so tenuous that it amazes me that SR even exists in the first place. And all of us drug users should not be naive to think that purchasing illegal drugs is so innocent. We have no way of knowing where and to who exactly our drug money goes. I'm sure plenty of our dollars flow to some kind of syndicates/cartels that are responsible for thousands of murders. I only buy weed myself but there is no way to know whether that friendly cannabis farmer is some enterprising cultivator or part of some Mexican cartel.
In terms of child porn purveyors, I do advocate for gun usage on them (I'm only kind of kidding). Call me a prude but scum is scum and there is no way to justify the exploitation of children.
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The sellers guide is a clear indication that SR does NOT blindly support a free market, it imposes it's own restrictions on pedophilia and contract killing so many arguments of the protection of freedom and liberty are already relatively moot.
The fact remains that if we want to protect our community we must also protect the public's perception of said community. Put it this way, if I told my mum "yeah there's this site you can buys pills and weed on" she'd be like "meh, you kids today don't know anything about drugs... i grew up in the 60's ffs". If I said "hey mum you know there's this site you go and buy grenade launchers on" she would probably have the internet disconnected from her house. This might be a slight exaggeration but you get my point.
The other interesting thing I've noticed is the clear pro gun attitude of US citizens, and slightly cautionary attitude of EU, AUS ones... I think that's funny, because given the right licenses and no criminal record you can basically buy any weapon you desire legally in the US, the only reason you'd want to buy an illegal firearm is because you are likely to commit illegal actions with it?
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Even though I'm personally opposed to all those things on the list, I know it's not my call to say what can and can't be sold here. You really need to understand that. You will eventually because there's nothing you or I can do about it. Except perhaps we can leave and start our own market. Or buy drugs elsewhere.
There are certain types of drugs that I am opposed to that are sold here. So what? Do you really care? doubtful. You may in fact enjoy some of those drugs. I don't know. But I don't try to impose my sensibilities on you or those who buy the drugs I am personally opposed to.
Hopefully you understand the point now. Sure you can dislike guns being sold here. No problem, no issue. I don't care for it either. But if you try to stop them from being sold here, then you do so based on your own sensibilities which you are trying to hypocritically impose on another. How is that right? This place exists because people in society imposed their sensibilities on you preventing you from acquiring drugs by ordinary means. Now you're going to turn around and do the same to others simply because your sensibilities are offended? Wow. I sure hope not.
Yeah, I get you, I always have. I do understand your argument, I just don't agree. You yourself argue that there should be no limit to what is advertised and sold here, yet the link to the buyers guide (thanks bozangles, I really should have read that first!) states that there are indeed limits. So most of the list I facetiously made, and that you agreed to, is actually not allowed.
So the argument that this place should be a free and unrestricted market is actually not part of SR's policy after all.
I repeat myself here when I say that irrespective of my opinion on guns, my problem is with the dangers some items pose to SR. Again Their guidelines seem to support this:
Practically speaking, there are many powerful adversaries of Silk Road and if we are to survive, we must not take them all on at once. Additionally, if you try to please everyone, you will wind up pleasing no one. So certain things are restricted just so we don't scare too many off.
So like others, I just fear for the future of SR should things get out of control.
As for gun sales...we will always have different views on this because here in the UK, it's just not a part of our culture. And our perceptions are that apart from gun clubs and farmers, most guns are used in crime. If the UK press got wind that SR was selling guns to UK residents, there would be a hell of a lot more negative exposure than any site selling drugs could ever do. There is an unspoken tolerance to drugs here, far, far more than there is for guns anyway.
Anyway, I've enjoyed this debate. We will have to agree to disagree I suppose. But it's been fun.
Well argued anyway BenJesuit et-al :)
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Would you guys try and stop me if I bought a gun to kill Glenn Beck?
I would kill that motherfucker in a second if I had the chance to get away with it.
EDIT: I'll carry Catcher in the Rye on me if I get caught.
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Yep, the SR should be free argument is somewhat moot given the polite suggestion that certain things shouldn't be sold here. (It's polite not just because of the word "please" but because those things can be sold irrespective of the heading of "prohibited.")
And that's what's great. The creators respect the free market aspect of it, going so far as calling sellers "revolutionaries", all the while admonishing a perspective seller that while they might sell something like that, doing so may lead to undue scrutiny of the powers that be. There's no speak of banning.
Now, we would hope that those buying guns never commit some act that leads to heightened scrutiny of SR in as much as those the buy GHB don't use it to victimize a non-consenting person. But, that's the risk we face in an open market. Just as unscrupulous persons come here to victimize trusting people just looking to self-medicate and/or enjoy all that life has to offer.
In closing, I see everyone understands and I even better understand the POV of everyone while sharing the same fear of losing SR. Thanks to all for the discourse. It was a good and necessary thing to flesh out.
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I am not one those "pissy liberals", as america so eloquently stated, I'm all for gun ownership. I'm not even going to say that I haven't bought a gun on the streets myself - some people seriously need one for protection! However i sold that gun. Why? because guns bring heat!!
Which brings me to my point, and the one I think others are missing, it's not a question of morality or sesiblities or whatever, the real problem is that GUNS=PUBLIC ATTENTION, PUBLIC ATTENTION=BAD.
I too wish that people would stop selling guns on here (mayb they make their own anonmyous marketplace or something), but we can't very well prevent them selling guns either as that would contradict SR.... The ol' catch-22
@redforeva
You don;t honestly believe that whole "best defense against tyranny is a well armed populous" crap, do you? I mean c'mon! They have tanks and nuclear weapons! You really think a 9mm is going to be the difference maker?
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There is plenty of other places to get guns in amerika there legal for the most part and you can get them on every street corner in metro areas of any big city, and OMG in rural areas there everywhere! I think it brings added heat and who know where some of those guns have been? do you really want to buy a hot piece? Drugs good! Guns bad!.......Peace....long live the SR.....:L
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@ theradblur I will BUY you the gun if you use it on Glenn Beck! lol jk.
Public attention to this site, despite what most in this thread think, is not bad! Even SR says it themselves. They WANT more attention because more attention means more buyers and sellers. More buyers and sellers mean a better selection and a more competitive market. That's good for everyone. Everyone on this thread needs to study the NAP (non-aggression principle). As long as you don't hurt anyone and only enter into voluntary exchange, everything is all good! It's basically that there is nothing inherently good or bad, it is the intention of the human being that makes it so. Everyone is talking about guns and drugs as if they are human beings with motivations and they AREN'T! Censorship is WRONG, and SR seems to get it.
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Very well put adubois.
You're quite right about NAP. After looking over it again, yes you're correct. It's not simply about things that could do harm, but rather persons who seek to do harm. Because if it literally were against things that do harm, drugs would fall under that category. Yes, drugs can and do harm - medical and scientifc fact. Though if used properly, may not cause harm or the harm can be greatly minimized.
And yes, we can't assume intent to buy a firearm is to harm because intent may also be to deter harm.
The argument that it will draw unwanted attention is invalid for sure. But what is valid is that should a firearm bought off SR is used in a crime in Europe, it would draw the ire of Law Enforcement. However valid the fear is, it leaves out one important thing - how likely would it be proven that the firearm was bought off SR? The one who bought it could say they got it off some guy and leave it at that. Or they could stay mum. Who knows. He may have practiced excellent security such that if his computer used to do the transaction were taken to forensics, they'd find nothing.
So in the end, the fear is just that, fear. It's not substantiated in the least. So perhaps the fear is also intermixed with personal sensibilities against guns in general.
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It doesn't matter if we know they're using them for the right purposes. The people who read the papers and watch the news won't. They'll just hear that their children cannot only buy drugs now on the Silk Road they can get guns too! Think how that's gunna spark em up! Watch how long it takes before this entire community is labeled as drug abusing weapon smuggling terrorists. It's not good guys... It's gunna bring a lot of heat I don't think we want..
--Foreverfamily
I agree with you 100% at first SR did have a ban on guns, a friend of mine was vending them on here but the SR admins told him it was not allowed. Then all of a sudden the rules changed without notice and they are allowed to be sold? There are plenty of other markets as others have said where you can purchase guns and what not so why not just leave the guns to those boards and take them off ours.
-anon1
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No Guns!
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It doesn't matter if we know they're using them for the right purposes. The people who read the papers and watch the news won't. They'll just hear that their children cannot only buy drugs now on the Silk Road they can get guns too! Think how that's gunna spark em up! Watch how long it takes before this entire community is labeled as drug abusing weapon smuggling terrorists. It's not good guys... It's gunna bring a lot of heat I don't think we want..
--Foreverfamily
I agree with you 100% at first SR did have a ban on guns, a friend of mine was vending them on here but the SR admins told him it was not allowed. Then all of a sudden the rules changed without notice and they are allowed to be sold? There are plenty of other markets as others have said where you can purchase guns and what not so why not just leave the guns to those boards and take them off ours.
-anon1
That the admins have let guns be sold should tell you something, no? If they are not seemingly worried, means they must have things under control and likely reasoned that imputing a ban on items is a slippery slope that goes against the point of SR to begin with. So what seems to be the issue, really?
Can't be the fear of SR being closed down since the owners of SR don't appear to share that fear.
Could it be that you just don't like guns? What if a bunch of people on here all of a sudden dislike the sale of your drug of choice and start calling for its ban for whatever reason? I know if that happened to my drug of choice, that would be a sad day for me.
I don't particularly like guns being sold here. But the owners/admins of SR are living true to their creed of freedom and that has to be respected. No?
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Great, another "More "democracy" (mob rule) on the private property that is Silk Road" thread ::)
Good luck.
We will see if he has changed his mind about the balance of liberty vs probable success of Silk Road continuing I guess.
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Can we just let this die now? Groundhog Day is alive and kicking on SR it seems....jeeez.
If you have nothing new to add, then let it be. You're repeating yourself now Ben. You gave a fairly good argument, but it's tired now.
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the silk road admins are just stupid.
How many gun transactions do they do? How many other transactions do they do? It is just FUCKING STUPID. Now the ATF/FBI will be involved only because of the gun issue.
Take the fucking guns down and quit being so fucking young, cocky and stupid.
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I said this on another thread somewhere:
yea, drugs are one thing (an awesome thing) - but guns...? I mean common. With drugs, it's all about the escape, the happiness, subconscious exploration, and feeding the black market. With guns, yea it can be about protection - but if you're buying illegally, chances are it's not just for fucking protection. If that were the case, why not just buy one from a gun store - or better yet, a gun show? All of this damn gun talk is going to do is bring the wrong type of people here (LE, violent criminals, etc.). And for what cost? So some dudes can get a damn Uzi sent to their door?? You don't need a fucking semi-automatic - let alone a full-automatic or a damn grenade launcher - to protect your family. By allowing this type of traffic, will only fuck over the peaceful members in the end. And none of us want that.
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With guns, yea it can be about protection - but if you're buying illegally, chances are it's not just for fucking protection. If that were the case, why not just buy one from a gun store - or better yet, a gun show? All of this damn gun talk is going to do is bring the wrong type of people here (LE, violent criminals, etc.). And for what cost? So some dudes can get a damn Uzi sent to their door?? You don't need a fucking semi-automatic - let alone a full-automatic or a damn grenade launcher - to protect your family. By allowing this type of traffic, will only fuck over the peaceful members in the end. And none of us want that.
It's not about YOU deciding what SOMEONE else "can have." It's about THEM being able to decide what THEY need. That's called respect, and the recognition of that is the foundation of peace and human harmony. What if I want to own a gun and I'm not in any government database, or I've fled my home country's unjust laws and arrest warrants in order to live a quiet life inside another nation? Humanity is not a race meant to be herded, surveilled, and reaped. We can do better than that, much better, and that begins with respect.
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This argument is pretty stupid. Everyone for the sale of guns keeps talking about how this site should be a free market and this is against everything we stand for blah blah. Yet this site has been against CP for the exact reasons of not bring more attention then necessary to this site and not promoting such disgusting material. This is not the first time the we've decided to not sell something for the good of the site and illegal guns should be no different. There is another black market website for that and personally I'm more then happy to allow that site to take the brunt of the heat while we respectfully and safely use our personal drugs that don't harm other people. What this site is for is for allowing people to decide for themselves what they put in their own body and allowing people to experiment with things that should never be illegal in the first place as they do not cause harm to others. This site should be a safe haven for that and that alone.
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With guns, yea it can be about protection - but if you're buying illegally, chances are it's not just for fucking protection. If that were the case, why not just buy one from a gun store - or better yet, a gun show? All of this damn gun talk is going to do is bring the wrong type of people here (LE, violent criminals, etc.). And for what cost? So some dudes can get a damn Uzi sent to their door?? You don't need a fucking semi-automatic - let alone a full-automatic or a damn grenade launcher - to protect your family. By allowing this type of traffic, will only fuck over the peaceful members in the end. And none of us want that.
It's not about YOU deciding what SOMEONE else "can have." It's about THEM being able to decide what THEY need. That's called respect, and the recognition of that is the foundation of peace and human harmony. What if I want to own a gun and I'm not in any government database, or I've fled my home country's unjust laws and arrest warrants in order to live a quiet life inside another nation? Humanity is not a race meant to be herded, surveilled, and reaped. We can do better than that, much better, and that begins with respect.
what an idealistic world you live in, where i can get tickets to visit? i think i might extend my vacation and check it out after i finish up at the ron paul amusement park
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This argument is pretty stupid. Everyone for the sale of guns keeps talking about how this site should be a free market and this is against everything we stand for blah blah. Yet this site has been against CP for the exact reasons of not bring more attention then necessary to this site
yeah you're right, the morality of selling guns anonymously is completely besides the point, most of us aren't here to make a moral or political statement, or to buy or sell firearms, most of us are here to buy and sell drugs. is it worth being significantly more conspicuous for such a small subset of users?
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Well I'll say this, if selling guns on SR brings the wrong kind of attention and puts it at a higher risk to be shut down then by all means ban the gun trade.
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what an idealistic world you live in
I was talking about respect, I'm sorry you don't live there, and I'm more so sorry you think that's a crazy idea.
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This argument is pretty stupid. Everyone for the sale of guns keeps talking about how this site should be a free market and this is against everything we stand for blah blah. Yet this site has been against CP for the exact reasons of not bring more attention then necessary to this site and not promoting such disgusting material. This is not the first time the we've decided to not sell something for the good of the site and illegal guns should be no different. There is another black market website for that and personally I'm more then happy to allow that site to take the brunt of the heat while we respectfully and safely use our personal drugs that don't harm other people. What this site is for is for allowing people to decide for themselves what they put in their own body and allowing people to experiment with things that should never be illegal in the first place as they do not cause harm to others. This site should be a safe haven for that and that alone.
No, there's quite a simple distinction between the two; CP inherently causes harm, whereas gun sales don't necessarily.
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what an idealistic world you live in
I was talking about respect, I'm sorry you don't live there, and I'm more so sorry you think that's a crazy idea.
i know you were talking about respect what's your point
i was just saying that you seemed to be of taking it to an extremely black and white utopian extreme, world aint that simple
This argument is pretty stupid. Everyone for the sale of guns keeps talking about how this site should be a free market and this is against everything we stand for blah blah. Yet this site has been against CP for the exact reasons of not bring more attention then necessary to this site and not promoting such disgusting material. This is not the first time the we've decided to not sell something for the good of the site and illegal guns should be no different. There is another black market website for that and personally I'm more then happy to allow that site to take the brunt of the heat while we respectfully and safely use our personal drugs that don't harm other people. What this site is for is for allowing people to decide for themselves what they put in their own body and allowing people to experiment with things that should never be illegal in the first place as they do not cause harm to others. This site should be a safe haven for that and that alone.
No, there's quite a simple distinction between the two; CP inherently causes harm, whereas gun sales don't necessarily.
you missed his point
he was saying that the discussion shouldn't be about what goods are moral or immoral, but what goods are going to draw unnecessary attention
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and, gonna play devils advocate here, who says that CP inherently causes harm?
a 13 year old can decide to strip in front of a webcam of their own volition, is there necessarily a victim being harmed here?
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And for what cost? So some dudes can get a damn Uzi sent to their door?? You don't need a fucking semi-automatic - let alone a full-automatic
That "Uzi" is not a fully automatic firearm. Uzis can be semi or full auto. And the aemi-auto versions are a differant system from the FA ones. This makes converting one VERY hard.
The Uzi Dbush has listed is a semi-auto firearm.
Dbush himself has said that he does not believe that civilians require or need machine guns (in a PM)
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I don't mind guns personally, but they don't belong on SR. We would get a bad reputation, and as the sellers guide states we don't need to take on too many enemies at once.
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I don't mind guns personally, but they don't belong on SR. We would get a bad reputation, and as the sellers guide states we don't need to take on too many enemies at once.
Guns>drugs . Guns belong on here just as well, it's a free market and I don't care about reputations
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With guns, yea it can be about protection - but if you're buying illegally, chances are it's not just for fucking protection. If that were the case, why not just buy one from a gun store - or better yet, a gun show? All of this damn gun talk is going to do is bring the wrong type of people here (LE, violent criminals, etc.). And for what cost? So some dudes can get a damn Uzi sent to their door?? You don't need a fucking semi-automatic - let alone a full-automatic or a damn grenade launcher - to protect your family. By allowing this type of traffic, will only fuck over the peaceful members in the end. And none of us want that.
It's not about YOU deciding what SOMEONE else "can have." It's about THEM being able to decide what THEY need. That's called respect, and the recognition of that is the foundation of peace and human harmony. What if I want to own a gun and I'm not in any government database, or I've fled my home country's unjust laws and arrest warrants in order to live a quiet life inside another nation? Humanity is not a race meant to be herded, surveilled, and reaped. We can do better than that, much better, and that begins with respect.
yea, I get you - but what would you rather have: a site where we have the freedom to buy drugs with less threat of getting shutdown OR a site where we have 100% freedom to sell whatever the fuck people want with a MUCH larger threat of being shutdown? I will definitely forfeit a few damn guns for the betterment of the community. We have such a good thing here already, why is there the need to get greedy? there are dozens of other outlets to purchase guns at - there is only ONE silk road.
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guns are more important as your stupid drugs, guns save lifes drugs destroy them. And anyway they can't put this site down since it's decentralized, go do some reading on how TOR works before you want to take away our guns
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.....guns save lifes drugs destroy them....
guns save lives?? thats fucking retarded. Yea they save your life from someone else who also has a gun who is trying to fucking kill you with said gun. Have you invested any research into America's death related gun stats vs. Europe's? You should.
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I don't mind guns personally, but they don't belong on SR. We would get a bad reputation, and as the sellers guide states we don't need to take on too many enemies at once.
Guns>drugs . Guns belong on here just as well, it's a free market and I don't care about reputations
Guns are more taboo than drugs. Even though people kill people, the public sees guns as the problem. So basically your selling murder. Religion says murder is one of the worst sins. Most people who see guns as a problem are religious. See where I'm going? I don't give a fuck who you shoot, but guns don't belong here as we cannot fight against everyone. And I disagree on your guns>drugs statement, guns were an awful invention. It gave the weak man power.
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Guns can used to intimidate too and end a conflict without a shot being fired. Gun control doesn't work, there's enough statistics that prove that
.....guns save lifes drugs destroy them....
guns save lives?? thats fucking retarded. Yea they save your life from someone else who also has a gun who is trying to fucking kill you with said gun. Have you invested any research into America's death related gun stats vs. Europe's? You should.
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This argument is pretty stupid. Everyone for the sale of guns keeps talking about how this site should be a free market and this is against everything we stand for blah blah. Yet this site has been against CP for the exact reasons of not bring more attention then necessary to this site and not promoting such disgusting material. This is not the first time the we've decided to not sell something for the good of the site and illegal guns should be no different. There is another black market website for that and personally I'm more then happy to allow that site to take the brunt of the heat while we respectfully and safely use our personal drugs that don't harm other people. What this site is for is for allowing people to decide for themselves what they put in their own body and allowing people to experiment with things that should never be illegal in the first place as they do not cause harm to others. This site should be a safe haven for that and that alone.
No, there's quite a simple distinction between the two; CP inherently causes harm, whereas gun sales don't necessarily.
Really? Downloading CP causes harm to who? The porn has clearly already been made so no extra harm is caused by the downloading of it. The sale of an illegal unregistered gun has much more potential to cause future harm then an already existing video. Regardless, this website is about a community for buying and selling drugs safely for personal use, why is it worth it to bring these other items into the mix that will jeopardize this amazing community?
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Guns don't kill people, people kill people. They're tools, they cant kill themselves. Guns enable a weak woman to defend herself against a much stronger male assailant which is a reason why they save life
I don't mind guns personally, but they don't belong on SR. We would get a bad reputation, and as the sellers guide states we don't need to take on too many enemies at once.
Guns>drugs . Guns belong on here just as well, it's a free market and I don't care about reputations
Guns are more taboo than drugs. Even though people kill people, the public sees guns as the problem. So basically your selling murder. Religion says murder is one of the worst sins. Most people who see guns as a problem are religious. See where I'm going? I don't give a fuck who you shoot, but guns don't belong here as we cannot fight against everyone. And I disagree on your guns>drugs statement, guns were an awful invention. It gave the weak man power.
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This argument is pretty stupid. Everyone for the sale of guns keeps talking about how this site should be a free market and this is against everything we stand for blah blah. Yet this site has been against CP for the exact reasons of not bring more attention then necessary to this site and not promoting such disgusting material. This is not the first time the we've decided to not sell something for the good of the site and illegal guns should be no different. There is another black market website for that and personally I'm more then happy to allow that site to take the brunt of the heat while we respectfully and safely use our personal drugs that don't harm other people. What this site is for is for allowing people to decide for themselves what they put in their own body and allowing people to experiment with things that should never be illegal in the first place as they do not cause harm to others. This site should be a safe haven for that and that alone.
No, there's quite a simple distinction between the two; CP inherently causes harm, whereas gun sales don't necessarily.
Really? Downloading CP causes harm to who? The porn has clearly already been made so no extra harm is caused by the downloading of it. The sale of an illegal unregistered gun has much more potential to cause future harm then an already existing video. Regardless, this website is about a community for buying and selling drugs safely for personal use, why is it worth it to bring these other items into the mix that will jeopardize this amazing community?
BAN GUNS BAN DRUGS CP IS THE MORAL HIGH GROUND AND HAS BEEN SILK ROADS DESTINY ALL ALONG
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guns save lives?? thats fucking retarded.
So then explain to me why we give them to police and other people who are meant to stop crime and or save lives.
You sir, are retarded.
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I am a survivor of the 80s and the potent combination of what happens when guns and drugs mix under loose police controls and where the murder rate skyrocketed to where in New York City alone there were 2200 murders a year. A lot of people are a little bit younger and can't remember this time....but it really is LESS VIOLENT these days.
We can debate all day whether guns are necessary for society or not, but the fact is we all have a cause being part of this site, whether we like it or not... and 99.9% its not for gun legalization or looser gun controls. Its for free trade of goods in an agorist community/structure.
If we want to convert non-believers and normal people to that cause and possibly have them join us, we should make them feel better about it by showing that we have limits. Then they will generally agree that we have a right to exist, rather than try to eliminate us (if we were child pornographers)
We have all agreed that child porn is off limits. If we agree that guns are off limits and only drugs (or other banned contraband which doesn't hurt other people other than the user) than that would make us heroes rebelling against an unjust society, rather than creeps who need to be eliminated by the police forces.
Right now the media and public opinion (which matters) is swinging in the other direction against us.... people can accept drugs, because everyone uses drugs. But not everyone understands or likes guns.
So we should decide what matters more - building this community or being right on principle.
So even though its against principle, we should BAN GUNS.
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Guns are more tolerated in the US as drugs, drugs will get you into prison, open carrying a gun in certain states won't and is your right
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Can we just let this die now? Groundhog Day is alive and kicking on SR it seems....jeeez.
If you have nothing new to add, then let it be. You're repeating yourself now Ben. You gave a fairly good argument, but it's tired now.
Indeed, I am repeating myself and also expanding. And thanks for the compliment in regards to my position on the matter. But I don't see how my continued participation in the thread is a problem. Especially when new posters to the thread who understandably haven't read all the posts preceding their own, continue to post similarly. Whether pro or con. Are only new posters to the thread allowed to echo the same opposing sentiments as my own in countering other new participants with the opposite position?
If others post similarly to my position, why can't I also be granted the freedom to continue to participate? Perhaps new thoughts can blossom on the matter. A slight variation on the theme can do that sometimes.
So I find it to be quite a strange request on your part? Think about it for a second. Think about what you are asking.
You don't like seeing my continued posts because they " tire you." And for that, you would have me to stop? Moreover, you'd like the issue to "die" but how can it when there's no official expressly stated opinion on the matter. That gun sales persist only implies the official position. So you're also asking those who would like to see guns banned to stop voicing their concern also.
It seems as if whatever you don't like, you want gone or stopped. Why didn't you opt to simply stop reading the thread if it tires you? It seems you'd rather impose your sensibility on others than to let others have the freedom to express themselves and converse as they may.
I mean, I'd like to oblige you seeing as my continued participation appears to harm you. But that you have other alternatives to reduce or even eliminate the harm caused by having to read or even see my posts, I'm not as inclined to oblige your request as I would be if those other alternatives did not exist.
:)
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i would like to see guns somewhere else but at the same time this is SR's shit. he made it and he can do whatever the fuck he wants to with it. ill keep buying my drugs and hope that their introduction doesn't ruin the site. he seems pretty confident in his abilities, hope its not hubris.
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i would like to see guns somewhere else but at the same time this is SR's shit. he made it and he can do whatever the fuck he wants to with it. ill keep buying my drugs and hope that their introduction doesn't ruin the site. he seems pretty confident in his abilities, hope its not hubris.
That's an important point. The owners/admins of SR obviously don't see gun sales as a threat to SR. The fear that gun sales will rouse LE into certain action is an unsubstantiated fear no matter how reasonable the fear may seem. The owners/admins of SR have a good thing going and they know it and they don't want to lose it. So we should probably trust that they know what they are doing by holding firmer to the principle of what SR represents. That being a free market where what sells or not is dictated by trade between parties and not by the imposition of one's or a group's sensibilities.
It seems there are two main positions against gun sales.
1. Fear that gun sales will hasten the demise of SR.
2. Having a sensibility that opposes firearms in general.
I share both as I'm sure others do also. But I would rather hold to the ideal that SR is to be a free market. So I wouldn't want to impose my sensibilities on another. I simply won't buy any firearms off SR. And if enough people don't, the market for gun sales will likely wane.
I apologize to Gaia for making another post and hope that gaia is not harmed by reading this post. if perhaps Gaia could skip over it, that would please us both. (Tongue in cheek).
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I mean, I'd like to oblige you seeing as my continued participation appears to harm you. But that you have other alternatives to reduce or even eliminate the harm caused by having to read or even see my posts, I'm not as inclined to oblige your request as I would be if those other alternatives did not exist.
:)
Haha...translation: "I'm going to continue to contribute to this thread". ;D
My point was not that I want you to stop. Why would I? Just stop making the same points over and over. 'Expand' as you put it, but don't regurgitate.
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shit's gonna get serious
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I apologize to Gaia for making another post and hope that gaia is not harmed by reading this post. if perhaps Gaia could skip over it, that would please us both. (Tongue in cheek).
No, that last post was acceptable to me. You had at least one new sentence in it. ;)
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This argument is pretty stupid. Everyone for the sale of guns keeps talking about how this site should be a free market and this is against everything we stand for blah blah. Yet this site has been against CP for the exact reasons of not bring more attention then necessary to this site and not promoting such disgusting material. This is not the first time the we've decided to not sell something for the good of the site and illegal guns should be no different. There is another black market website for that and personally I'm more then happy to allow that site to take the brunt of the heat while we respectfully and safely use our personal drugs that don't harm other people. What this site is for is for allowing people to decide for themselves what they put in their own body and allowing people to experiment with things that should never be illegal in the first place as they do not cause harm to others. This site should be a safe haven for that and that alone.
No, there's quite a simple distinction between the two; CP inherently causes harm, whereas gun sales don't necessarily.
Really? Downloading CP causes harm to who? The porn has clearly already been made so no extra harm is caused by the downloading of it. The sale of an illegal unregistered gun has much more potential to cause future harm then an already existing video. Regardless, this website is about a community for buying and selling drugs safely for personal use, why is it worth it to bring these other items into the mix that will jeopardize this amazing community?
It causes harm by contributing to the demand which provides a market for CP production. You're focusing on the past rather than what has actually caused the vast majority of CP videos to exist; sufficient demand.
And I guess because it's against the spirit of the website to disallow guns. Also, this is a great PR stunt that will mainly attract more drug customers, if this move really does generate a lot of heat then guns can be removed from sale giving SR another PR opportunity to express a new found moral stance on the issue.
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I mean, I'd like to oblige you seeing as my continued participation appears to harm you. But that you have other alternatives to reduce or even eliminate the harm caused by having to read or even see my posts, I'm not as inclined to oblige your request as I would be if those other alternatives did not exist.
:)
Haha...translation: "I'm going to continue to contribute to this thread". ;D
My point was not that I want you to stop. Why would I? Just stop making the same points over and over. 'Expand' as you put it, but don't regurgitate.
Gotta love your selective dictatorial spirit. Even though other posters are doing the exact same "regurgitating" as you unflatteringly put it, you single me out. Interesting.
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..what about cyanide?
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I'd buy that for a dollar. Who sellin'?
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Perhaps we shouldn't regard SR as the poster child for agorism or free market, rather we should just think of it as the cool little club where we come to hang out, chat shit, buy drugs and peace out.
That is what its been all along?
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..what about cyanide?
What about it? Your sentence needs more work and time. Put more time into your wording and people will understand you. Maybe you are just having a bad week. ;-)
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- the thread you are commenting on is titled "Really don't want to see guns on SR... :( "
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I'm in Canada and there is huge demand for blackmarket guns. Typically American truckers stop in Arizona, or Virginia or some other state where you can legally buy a dozen handguns all at once and stash them in their truck for sale once they drop off their load in Ontario/BC/wherever at 5x the price.
The punishment for weapons smuggling out of the US is basically nothing. I read a news article on how one US trucker was caught numerous times selling guns in Canada but nothing happened to him back home. US does not care if you smuggle guns out of the US but they sure as hell do care if you're illegally selling within the borders.
Police in my city claim 22 homicides last year were all traced back to the same gun store in VA who refused to give out any info, and legally don't have to give any buyer info to foreign countries. So for exporting American's that know what they're doing you are safe.