Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: nigge on January 05, 2012, 11:02 pm
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So the shit has hit the fan a little bit. The Finnish customs intercepted a few packages coming to my home address some months ago containing small amounts of class A drugs. A few days ago I received a phone call from them where they asked me if I knew anything about this going through the usual routine: "you probably know what this is about?". I responded that I had no idea what he was talking about. He asked me multiple times what I knew about the packages coming to me, everytime I answered telling him I didn't know what he was talking about, as simply as possibly. I was fairly calm and naturalistic on the phone.
Then they asked me to come to an interrogation. This will happen next week.
I'm curious as to what exactly they plan to ask me there. I'm wondering what kind of possible tricks up their sleeves they might still have as he already asked the basic questions on the telephone and I gave him my answers. How likely are they to ask about Tor or Silk Road specifically? What should I answer? Maybe they are even reading this very thread, so I'm keeping some things vague.
Any hints from people who have been in a similar situation?
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(luckily) I haven't been in a similar situation. (Using different fake addresses helps).
But if I would ever be in such a situation, I would try to convince the police that you don't know anything about the packages.
Everyone who knows your address can send you anything he/she wants. You can't avoid that.
Or simply say nothing. I don't know how your local laws deal with that, you should get some information about the situation.
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This is why using fake ID's to open post boxes is so important. I'm not familiar with Finnish law, but if you deny you had any knowledge of it you'll probably be ok considering it was small personal amounts.
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Every country is different, I can't comment on the specifics, but I would highly reccomend contacting an attorney and/or having them present during the interrogation. Like everyone said, do not admit to prior knowledge of anything. The legal system there is anything like ours, the burden of proof is entirely upon them. I'd be hesitant to try any further orders with the same name and/or address that you used previously as well.
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Get a lawyer. Show up with him. Let him do the talking. Tell your lawyers this when you meet up with him for the first time: Customs has contacted you about some kind of package. You're not sure what it's all about but apparently they want you to go down and do some sort of interrogation, and you think it's wise to exercise your right to a lawyer. That's it. Let the mouthpiece do the work.
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You NEED a lawyer. From my quick research it looks like the Finnish police may have the authority to compel you to attend, but they also have to tell you what you're suspected of. You definitely need to AT LEAST meet with a lawyer to discuss this and preferably have the same lawyer with you at the interrogation, if he or she suggests it.
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I'm with ChillyP and Anarcho47, tell your lawyer you have no idea.
Also, because I'm super paranoid, I would tell at least 3 loved ones your situation, in case you just disappear! Imagine if you just left, and no one knew, and they detained you indefinitely?!?!?
Don't allude to anything. It could be an enemy trying to set you up for all you know.
Lawyer up!
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Most people don't know this, but you CANNOT tell your lawyer if you are guilty. A lawyer's first duty is to the integrity of the court, and if he represents someone who is guilty and knows it, he can be disbarred. That's why your lawyer should always say "I don't want to know if you did it or not."
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Most people don't know this, but you CANNOT tell your lawyer if you are guilty. A lawyer's first duty is to the integrity of the court, and if he represents someone who is guilty and knows it, he can be disbarred. That's why your lawyer should always say "I don't want to know if you did it or not."
100% correct! If you tell them you're guilty, they will not take your case. But this case seems open and shut. If they were really trying to bust you, they would have done a controlled delivery, recon on your home, etc. Your prints aren't on the packages, and you have no clue. Cops got some free drugs, to put back out on the street, or do themselves.
Also, some people feel that just getting an attorney may make them seem guilty, but what they REALLY want, is for you to show up on your own, with no knowledge of law, protocols, procedures. They will lie and say they will reduce charges if you talk. NEVER talk, those are ALWAYS lies! ONLY your lawyer, speaking to the judge, and prosecution team, may make deals for you. The police can't. But they'll tell you they can!
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isn't hiring a lawyer a little overkill for something like this? At most I think I'd be looking at a fine of a few hundred euros.
I thought it'd be enough to deny/act oblivious to everything since they really can't have anything on me as far as hard proof. I just wanted to know if there was some unexpectable questions they might ask to throw me off from someone who's been in the situation before.
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Well if you are so willing to pay a fine of a few hundred euro's I would most certainly spend a little cash to talk to a lawyer. Better to be prepared I say. Especially since you said a "few packages"....so it can't hurt to talk to a lawyer first. can it? But if you think you can pull it off and just deny deny deny then go ahead. Who would want to send drugs to me officers? Must be someone trying to get me in trouble or something else eh? Have you had packages delivered since those were caught? Good luck whatever you do.
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This is why using fake ID's to open post boxes is so important. I'm not familiar with Finnish law, but if you deny you had any knowledge of it you'll probably be ok considering it was small personal amounts.
Not really. Because if you get caught in this situation, you are going to be hit with at the least mail fraud, and probably a few others on TOP of the possible drug charges (and you have REALLY weakened your plausible deniability at this point).
At least when it comes to your home, under your name you can have your lawyer argue you had NO idea it was coming. That'd be hard to do when you get busted at a mail place with a fake name.
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Just act like you own them, and it will be fine... they can smell fear.
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Hey nigge.
Bummer man. Finland is tough.
This happened to a customer of mine in April or May. He/she didn't tell me the exact details of the interrogation but they did say that they just went in, denied all knowledge of anything, had no idea why anyone would try to send them drugs internationally, and eventually the cops said "get the fuck out of here."
They did show him a piece of paper that said something along the lines of "7.4 grams of high-quality cannabis." I blushed. Thanks for the compliment, Finnish customs!
Anyway, you sound like a cool customer and I'm sure you'll be fine. As is standard in policing across the world, they want you to convict yourself, and if you can withstand a surprise phone call from them you'll do fine in the interview.
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I would deny knowledge of anything.
- If you tell them "i didn't order those three packages" then they've going to tell you "who said anything about this involving three packages?" and they've got you.
- If you say "i didn't order any drugs" then they're going to say "who said anything about the packages containing drugs?" and they've got you.
You have to make them believe you really are clueless to the whole situation from every angle. If they do decide to arrest you, then close your mouth until you get yourself a lawyer.
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Thanks for the responses so far.
Any more experiences/hints from some people who have actually been in this situation? Or have second hand information even?
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Never sat in the hot seat myself but consider carefully what you post here publicly. DON'T tell us how it goes afterwards, don't leak any more information on this forum right away. They're reading it along with everyone else, or if they're not right now, they will someday. You want to minimize potential correlations between the IRL and Silk Road stuff.
If we don't hear from you we'll assume you are fine.:) Especially when you come back in six months when nobody gives a damn anymore and TELL us you are fine.
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Play dumb and deny everything.
If they say something like, "We're not interested in going after you. We just want to know the sellers information. Nothing bad will happen to you." The proper response is, "What!? I have no idea. How would I know? This sounds like someone is trying to black mail me!" but if you say something like, "I have no idea who sells the drugs." then you're admitting to there being drugs. What if they never said it was drugs? All of a sudden you're admitting guilt inadvertently.
You don't know anything: What country the package came from, what the package looks like (envelope or box? who knows?), what is in the package (could be a bomb!), or any details at all. Even if they give you a detail, like say it is drugs, don't fall into that hole and say, "I have no idea what drugs." because they could not remember admitting to you they said it was drugs. It is best to show absolute ignorance regardless what information you know or what information they give you.
Also, I'm a bit paranoid, but if something like this was happening to me anything I'm holding would be gone. No drugs or sign of drugs on my property.
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Albeit most of the good advice was already said. If I was you I would do the tactic of deny with a twist.
Plan A - I would order some benzos like etizolam (u can get next day delivery from uk vendors online, and its legal), and used it to stay chill and calm, its central nervous system depressor, it will give u confidence and calmness.
Plan B - If you dont want do do it, remember that even if u stress and get really nervous its normal, after all its ur first interrogation, and this would break nerves of anyone.
Conclusion: Deny like a mothafuka.
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Don't say anything in the interview!
Don't deny or confirm anything.
Just get your lawyer to say that you will make a statement when you are charged.
The reason for this is that you don't know anything. Wait until court (if it goes that far) and then you can see all of the evidence that they have collected (or lack of it) and respond accordingly. In interview you will be given the least amount of information and thoroughly interrogated, it will not be as simple as just playing dumb. You will be asked trick questions and ambiguous questions designed to trick you into saying something that can be misquoted or twisted when represented to a jury in court. Without this they don't have a case.
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watch this youtube video.... it really does wonders. Now since your in finland im not sure about how the government operates....so just watch this video and soak up some knowledge from it....very interesting lecture.
Dont Talk to Police
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
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cops typically use the 'we already know what you've done, tell us about it to save yourself' strategy. in other words they have no evidence until you give them some during interrogation.
you know nothing.
you hopefully encrypted your computer (with a decoy partition should they seize it and demand a key)
you show up with a lawyer
you never offer any information ever
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when are u getting the 4 aco dmt? i heard is a great mix with 2cb . any chance in getting peyote?
LMFAO. Some poor bastard waiting to get interrogated and you're asking him when peyote's coming. That is some funny shit. OMG, I can't stop laughing...
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Get a lawyer.
From that video above: A defense attorney has never said, "Gosh, if you had just talked to the police *more*, everything would have turned out fine."
They are there because you're a suspect. That is your role. Your role is not to play dumb, or casual, or smart. Your role in this movie is suspect.
If anyone ever asks me any questions, I think my answers would be:
1. Yes, that's my name. Who are you?
2. I need a lawyer. I will not answer any more questions. Anything I do until my lawyer shows up is under duress. I want this recorded.
You have all the time in the world to mount a defense, so take it.
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Thanks for the responses so far.
Any more experiences/hints from some people who have actually been in this situation? Or have second hand information even?
My very first order, a few grams of weed got intercepted by customs, following an invitation to the police for a "chat". The main things you have to be aware of:
- You never bought any of it
- You never owned any of it
- You never consumed any of it
That's basically all you got to tell them and these are the only thing that would warrant a penalty. I've told this about 10 times to the cop and in the end he finally got the message. Stay polite though. When I left the station I asked if this would have consequences and he said that I probably will get a fine. So I told him again:
- I never bought any of it
- I never owned any of it
- I never consumed any of it
2 weeks later I got a letter from the district attorneys office, saying that the case is closed and costs are at the expense of the state. However I have changed my address for deliveries since then and would advise you to do the same.
Btw, I know Suomi well and I'm living in a country that is as tough when it comes to these things.
Hope that helps.
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omg im a dumbass i was trying to do too many things at once too many browser tabs open.. sorry for that off-topic post . it was meant for another topic
thanks for pointing out how much of a dick i am PumpkinYeti LOL..,
let us know how this goes...... lawyer or not is a good question. i would say it all depends on how they asked you to come in. i would not go in with a lawyer straight up. but i would have one on speed dial if and when things get hairy. if you do show up with a lawyer it might be a red flag for them to pursue you more.. and be careful what you say in interview good luck
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you can delete your posts. just go up to it and hit "remove" - it's over on the right side.
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if someone asked me if i wanted to be interrogated my natural instinct would be to say no. I guess i'm weird.
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just tell cops to fuck off and suck your dick.
:D
j/k!!!!
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They call you on the phone, and give you notice about an interrogation? :o
Wouldn't an 'informal house interview' be a far more efficient way to conduct inquiries?
It seems that they are pretty half-hearted at best... but maybe that's the way they do things up there.
Get a lawyer! Even truly innocent people live to regret tangling with the forces of authority on their own. What is your clean record worth to you? Get help man!
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just remember this is a serious offense at least where im from it is. if u do not bring lawyer with you to interview.... at least talk to one before this and get advice , have him on retainer maybe so that he can accompany you in the interview if its needed...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
Look at this video never talk to any law enforcement office without a lawyer.
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saw that video and its good.. makes me wish i knew then what i know now.. :)
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Well pass that video around, also if you know a way to download it let me know I'd appreciate it. But let others know and share the info.
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@bsalt - you can get browser apps that let you rip the video right off of youtube. Check it out.
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Hey Nigge. I have no idea what the law is like in Finland, but in my country, the pigs have to issue a warrant. If they 'ask' you for an 'interview' and you 'agree,' you're waiving their need to procure a warrant in order to interrogate you. Refusing to agree to interrogation is not an admission of guilt.
Anyone here who might know the fine details of this in Finland better than I?
Best of luck, Nigge.
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Nigge,
any updates? Did you have your meeting/interrogation?
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If you're not used to interrogation, you'd better get a lawyer.
Don't think "Oh, I can do this". You have no idea what tricks they might try on you.
You might think, "it's not big deal, I just deny everything and avoid paying a lawyer". Pay the lawyer. It's like insurance.
About news, he could be linked to this post. Maybe posting an "I'm fine" would be nice :)
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@bsalt - you can get browser apps that let you rip the video right off of youtube. Check it out.
or you can use savevid.com
easy!
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At this point, they have nothing on you. They want you to give yourself up....incriminate yourself, confess....they want to bust higher ups and they want your help.
someone posted earlier......you own them.
as far as youre concerned, someone is trying to use your mailbox as their pick up....you must be a scoped out drop point.
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Like everyone else is saying, deny deny deny. I had a friend who had to go to a customs office in the US, and he consulted a lawyer but chose not to bring him to the interrogation because he's cheap. Everything ended up alright because he never told them anything, just played dumb. But still, don't underestimate the meeting, be careful and choose your words wisely.
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Are you even obliged to go to the interrogation in the first place?
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Hey Nigge. I have no idea what the law is like in Finland, but in my country, the pigs have to issue a warrant. If they 'ask' you for an 'interview' and you 'agree,' you're waiving their need to procure a warrant in order to interrogate you. Refusing to agree to interrogation is not an admission of guilt.
No warrant, they can fuck off. Dunno about Finland though.
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Hey Nigge. I have no idea what the law is like in Finland, but in my country, the pigs have to issue a warrant. If they 'ask' you for an 'interview' and you 'agree,' you're waiving their need to procure a warrant in order to interrogate you. Refusing to agree to interrogation is not an admission of guilt.
No warrant, they can fuck off. Dunno about Finland though.
In Finland drug possession is enough to do a house raid. It does not need to go through any judge or legal processes, if they get you red-handed with anything stronger than cannabis, it´s 90% sure they will search your house. This has happened to me, luckily I did not have anything there at the moment but you should have seen the dog they used to search, it marked almost everything in my apartment and was so exited about the beautiful mix of smells of almost every drug known to man, like a little kid at christmas morning :D
Also interrogation is not something you can decline to do. Or yes, in theory you can, but it means that you will be spending time in jail. There are three "degrees of suspection" in Finland; reason to doubt, obvious reason to doubt and most likely guilty. First two will usually keep you locked up maximum of 3 days if you don´t talk, sometimes in second they can up it to 7 days. In the latter they will keep you locked up until the case is clear or the "most likely guilty" fades to the first or second option. Of course the maximum they will hold you equals to the maximum sentence of that crime. So no, they won´t lock you down and throw the key away if you possess small amounts and refuse to talk.
I have been in the exactly same situation than OP, and in the same country; I received packages to my home address and customs forfeited some of them. Their tactics was basically "just come here and let´s clear this thing up, you pay the fines and face whatever consequenses and everything will be okay :)". Of course all of this was said in a very friendly and comforting manner :-*. Didn´t bought their shit, told them that I have no idea what they are talking about and never heard them eversince the document what stated that packages sent to my name were forfeited and contents destroyed. So keep your cool OP, just deny.
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the poster above knows what he is talking about.
i decided to go with the naturalistic route of going there, acting normal and calm, denying everything and knowledge of anything. everything went smoothly and i was out in less than an hour total.
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Good to hear you're not locked up. I'd keep my house and any vehicles I owned clean for a while.
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This happened in Finland? I am really sorry to hear about that pal. I thought Finland was an enlightened liberal country with regards to drug use, but they are actually going to interrogate you? Although I am not a legal expert I have had years of involvement with anti-authoritarian organizations and have managed to avoid entanglements with the legal system. My first instinct would be to put any current SR orders on hold: getting a second package intercepted while they are currently investigating you would just be another 'nail in your coffin', so to speak. Physically move your computer to a friends place for a while just in case they intend to seize it and look into your hard drive. Get rid of any books on the subject of drugs,any handwritten notes that related to Silk Road or any e-mail or encryption passwords, get rid of any drugs and drug paraphernalia that you might have on your person or premises, and be very careful about what you say over the phone. Admit nothing and lawyer up asap. Maybe go to an internet cafe if you want to do any research your legal situation: you are not the first or last person who will have had to undergo this kind of harassment. Try not to panic or get all stressed out about it: they can sense fear.
It sucks having to be forced to be a criminal simply b/c I choose to use certain substances arbitrarily made illegal by the State: but it only makes my commitment to the services/community of Silk Road and resistance to the War on (some) Drugs that much greater. I wish you all the best friend. Peace.
"Those who control the present control the past. Those who control the past control the future." George Orwell
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So the shit has hit the fan a little bit. The Finnish customs intercepted a few packages coming to my home address some months ago containing small amounts of class A drugs. A few days ago I received a phone call from them where they asked me if I knew anything about this going through the usual routine: "you probably know what this is about?". I responded that I had no idea what he was talking about. He asked me multiple times what I knew about the packages coming to me, everytime I answered telling him I didn't know what he was talking about, as simply as possibly. I was fairly calm and naturalistic on the phone.
Then they asked me to come to an interrogation. This will happen next week.
I'm curious as to what exactly they plan to ask me there. I'm wondering what kind of possible tricks up their sleeves they might still have as he already asked the basic questions on the telephone and I gave him my answers. How likely are they to ask about Tor or Silk Road specifically? What should I answer? Maybe they are even reading this very thread, so I'm keeping some things vague.
Any hints from people who have been in a similar situation?
Cummon, expect me to believe that one ? What you do ? put your phone number on the package ? for real man !
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God , people on here are fucking idiots (not the Original Poster, some of the replies on Page 1) and the moron right above me --^ . Yeah, go ahead and disbelieve this ever happened you idiot! You'll be the 'low-hanging fruit' for LE that keeps the rest of us safe.
There are way too many stupid kids ages 16 to 22 on here (especially the ones who think sending illegal drugs through the mail is 'no big deal'.) But like I said, I consider them 'cop bait'.
Don't ppl know there are 7.2 million people rotting in prison in the United States, and well over half of them (over 3.6 million people) are in prison for drug offenses? And most of these sentences (80%+) are for possession?. That's about 3 million people rotting in prison for what these idiots think is 'no big deal'. Think about rotting in prison because you are careless. Reality check !
Don't Ever Talk to the Police : Lecture by Law Professor James Duane
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865
*EVERYONE NEEDS TO WATCH THE ABOVE VIDEO. IT MAY MEAN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JAIL AND FREEDOM* I noticed other people beat me to it and posted it as well ... That's great, I'm so pleased....
Do not EVER talk to the police . Generally, the reason they want to question you is because they have insufficient evidence. There is nothing good that can come from talking to the police except accidentally slipping up and incriminating yourself.
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OP, you should read the DEA Narcortics Investigators Manaul, there's a link posted to it on here. Search for [intel] and you'll find it, I think QTC posted it. In it, is a wealth of information about interrogation techniques etc.
Edit: Ah, just read the rest of the thread and problem is already solved.
Nonetheless, do it anyway, it's good to know.
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Hi!
Here in Finland defendant does not have to prove his innocence but the prosecutor has to prove his guilt. In this case I guess it's almost impossible to do so.
Deny all charges and it'll go just fine :)
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Don't know anything about the laws of Finland.
But I have to believe contacting an attorney is a good idea.
The business about the lawyer having his/her first duty to the court is only partly true. The attorney can't assist you is in testifying untruthfully. That doesn't mean if you tell your attorney you're guilty he can tell the police. He'd get disbarred for that.(in the US)
In the US any encounter with the police under these circumstances should be to say nothing. That you want a lawyer and you don't consent to any searches.
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the poster above knows what he is talking about.
i decided to go with the naturalistic route of going there, acting normal and calm, denying everything and knowledge of anything. everything went smoothly and i was out in less than an hour total.
Good news! Glad you can beat it.