Quote from: AnOn.edu on August 19, 2012, 05:29 amPine,The scary thing about swarming tech is that if it ever becomes a threat (real, imagined, or as propaganda) western governments will respond with Blitzkrieg tactics and the only way to really stop e-swarms are EMP or thermo.Well, I don't think nation states will face each other head on, but rather through proxy wars via cyberspace or cats paw conflicts i.e. geographical spaces that serve as a jousting area, just as Vietnam did. So, a whole lot of 'artillery' which would be unthinkable to use in a densely populated area in your own states, would become possible when territories and their peoples become expendable without serious political blowback. I think of them as Guinea Pig States.I don't think thermonuclear weapons make much sense vs swarming, it's like taking a sledge to a bunch of nails. Maybe miniaturized nuclear devices, but frankly swarms are predicated on being made out of cheap mass manufactured materials so they are disposable, so the accounting is against you there. You may have heard that uranium and plutonium aren't getting any cheaper on Tera Firma.EMP protection is likely something swarms would have from the get-go, I don't know much about this science, but I don't think it takes anything better than metal shielding or even a couple of layers of alum foil to protect internal electronics. Maybe I'm wrong about very strong EMP pulses, but I guess we're going to find out in either case.I think the only way to realistically counter swarms, is to use swarms i.e. interception bots. This ultimately takes warfare directly to a battle over comms, hi-tech geekry and the use of pervasive/ubiquitous networks not exactly miles removed from Tor. A combination of the human network using low-fi tech e.g. UV tagging somebody's door who's a suspect, and somebody else delivering a micro-explosive device the size of a dime in a simple envelope, or piloting a tiny insect sized bot with a poison needle through a catflap at night. Sci-fi? No, the technology already is here, we're just waiting on the application.Imagine a war in which there is no distinguishing marks to tell a solider from a civilian because that would be intelligence for the enemy, where war becomes based more on ideologies other than nationalism, and you have dudes piloting different kinds of drones from their suburban homes, maybe fighting against their next door neighbors for all they know.Sounds surreal, but when WMD cancels out the possibility of direct conflict maybe proxy warfare and swarming is the natural thing that follows. In one respect I think the videogame 'Command & Conquer' was on the money, and that is that future nation state wars may not be fought on the basis of geographical boundaries anymore. I mean, people simply don't identify with political parties any more, people who strongly do are almost seen as anachronistic by their peers in some places in the West. On the other hand, people still *feel* strong emotions about political *events*, so the potential for conflict certainly hasn't dissipated. This has a lot to do with the mass media providing bandwidth for such organization, I see a lot of similarity between modern flash mobs and the genocide in Rwanda for example, there are a lot of parallels. I don't think you could realistically say the governments were in control in any way of that situation that went down there.What happens, when somebody can print off handguns on their 3D printer? It's not like they're particularly complex devices. It makes the concept of Assassination Markets much more accessible. What happens when people are opting to pay their taxes using untraceable cryptographic currencies to organizations that truly represent them as opposed to today's complacent tax gouging states? Then the state's power gets hollowed out with within, it could result in them abruptly collapsing. For centuries, the number of nation states has declined over time, maybe that trend is going to reverse.The future, whichever way you look at it, in my opinion, is a vast dissolution of State power. This is the zenith of State power today. From here on out, those dinosaurs are going to be shown the door. China, for all its hard power, struggles to keep a lid on simple organic sentiment among its populace, even with its mass surveillance technology and cold war mindset. They can't even garner support from their own nationalists! The Western powers too, their use of soft power has been dramatically curtailed by the Internet. Witnesses wikileaks and look at the contrast between the blogosphere and the editorial lines of major news corporations. Looks to me like the Libertarians have the upper hand and the States are just reacting, reacting, reacting, ineffectively as ever.