How to Keep the cops out?

[Sam I Am]

If you've looked at the Nod busts then you should realize that the cops were on some other website as Vendors and Buyers.

1) The cops would use their own Buyer accounts to prop up their Seller Accounts.

2) Then with the Seller accounts they would gather as many names as possible.

2a) The basic idea was that the buyers would buy from other (legitimate) vendors

3) Then the cops would lean on the buyer and try to triangle the dealer.

This is what happened to Nod. Not that I or anyone here is suggesting anything illegal. But there has to be a way around this system. Let's look at a system that is similar that the US government would actually support.

Think of a tor network server that hosts communications between Iranian dissidents. (US interests want Iran's oil more than the sweet virgin Mary herself).  This server allows Iranians to plan a coup, exchange ideas, trade secrets and share weapons. (Looky CIA -see there is a useful purpose for us afterall). How would such an exchange limit access by (in that case Iranian) law enforcement?

[Yoda]

From what I read, I thought it was him using actual return addresses of his drops to ship product.

Where are you getting this from? 

And how would people buying from legit vendors benefit LE and their fake vendor account?... are you saying LE is watching everyone's mailbox that tried to order from them?  Even if they did watch and we did order from other vendors, same CD rules apply... anyone can order anything to anyone's address.

[noc]

This is what happened to Nod.

It is not.

Have you read the entire indictment?

[Sam I Am]

This is what happened to Nod.

It is not.

Have you read the entire indictment?

"Agents in Seattle eventually connected Silk Road to Sadler after they intercepted a package addressed to someone in Alaska. The recipient told agents where he purchased the drugs from "NOD" on Silk Road."

If you have a link to the indictment -please share.

I've got news sites.

Clearnet http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Federal-drug-charges-for-Bellevue-man-involved-in-Silk-Road-226387671.html?mobile=y&clmob=y&c=n

Keep in mind that even in the indictment that the cops may lie or use "parallel discovery" at any time.

[Sam I Am]

And how would people buying from legit vendors benefit LE and their fake vendor account?... are you saying LE is watching everyone's mailbox that tried to order from them?  Even if they did watch and we did order from other vendors, same CD rules apply... anyone can order anything to anyone's address.

This is really not that hard to understand. If I am driving my car around a "drug neighborhood" then I might get pulled over, searched and ticketed. in these same neighborhoods cops routinely run stings and reverse stings.

Why are you claiming that the cops wouldn't do this?

[Yoda]

And how would people buying from legit vendors benefit LE and their fake vendor account?... are you saying LE is watching everyone's mailbox that tried to order from them?  Even if they did watch and we did order from other vendors, same CD rules apply... anyone can order anything to anyone's address.

This is really not that hard to understand. If I am driving my car around a "drug neighborhood" then I might get pulled over, searched and ticketed. in these same neighborhoods cops routinely run stings and reverse stings.

Why are you claiming that the cops wouldn't do this?

I'm not saying they wouldn't... but it would be a fishing expedition like any other CD.

And court wise, if you follow the proper protocol, you still win.   

[NotACop]

Hi guys!

is this where we talk about cops? What kind of crimes do you guys like?

[SmokesHisBroccoli]

While I had heard of LE making 100 controlled purchases as they called them, I never heard of LE making controlled sales through SR.  Can anyone confirm if this is true?  I'd like to assume that LE couldn't pose as sellers and actually ship product, but now that I think about it, what was preventing them from doing that?  Sure they can't setup as vendors, send the contraband and just say cya later and let you keep it.  But what was/is stopping them from getting a vendor account, pumping up the feedback, and then allowing buyers to place orders and setting up controlled deliveries of the goods?  The only logical answers to me are either 1. they don't have the time/money/resources 2. they don't care about buyers so much as to do this 3. it's somehow unlawful (entrapment).  What do you think?

[PrincessButtercup]

While I had heard of LE making 100 controlled purchases as they called them, I never heard of LE making controlled sales through SR.  Can anyone confirm if this is true?  I'd like to assume that LE couldn't pose as sellers and actually ship product, but now that I think about it, what was preventing them from doing that?  Sure they can't setup as vendors, send the contraband and just say cya later and let you keep it.  But what was/is stopping them from getting a vendor account, pumping up the feedback, and then allowing buyers to place orders and setting up controlled deliveries of the goods?  The only logical answers to me are either 1. they don't have the time/money/resources 2. they don't care about buyers so much as to do this 3. it's somehow unlawful (entrapment).  What do you think?

I don't think evidence exists of LE running vendor accounts (yet), but as the FBI set up a site to distribute child porn I consider it a possibility.

... and as for the nod story: hand writen addresses, seriously! Something I find encouraging about the busts so far is they all stem from really sloppy, exceedingly poor opsec in IRL - Tor and PGP are not antedotes for laziness and incompetence.

Does anyone remember StExo's investigation a few months back?

[ds]

While I had heard of LE making 100 controlled purchases as they called them, I never heard of LE making controlled sales through SR.  Can anyone confirm if this is true?  I'd like to assume that LE couldn't pose as sellers and actually ship product, but now that I think about it, what was preventing them from doing that?

American LE has a long history of actually selling actual drugs while pursuing significant drug dealers. They can get away with almost anything they want.

[FriendlyChemist]

I wonder how FriendlyChemist "hacked" a vendor account?

[Callisto]

I wonder how FriendlyChemist "hacked" a vendor account?

^^^ This is the one piece that jumps out at me the most. It just sounds too phony.

Apparently DPR was shown a sample of this so called hacked list which led him down that dangerous path.

But how was DPR to know that these names and addresses were legit? How the hell could he check the authenticity of these address's.

I remember some time ago on the other forum some yo-yo was posting names and quantities but they were just random names.

Any ideas?

~ C

[notmyname]

... and as for the nod story: hand writen addresses, seriously!

Let me just remark that printer ink can possibly be traced to batches of ink / vendors / date purchased. The Secret Service has a database of all ink from pens going back to the 70s. Gel pens might defeat some of this forensics magic. Or pencils. (Due to the fact that you cannot put it through chromatography as the gel is not separable via these means.)

How about an anti-forensics sub-forum?

[monoxide]

Personally I never bought of NOD but you would think a seller of that caliber and magnitude would be a little more professional about his operations...

Now I am not a vendor and am defiantly no expert but you would think he would have changed his packaging style a little bit and used fake return addresses(losing a bit of product is better than what he is facing now). Also, hand written packages....COME ON...Anytime I have received hand written letters I have messaged the vendor and told them it would be in their best interest to make them look a tad bit more professional.

[mixology]

And how would people buying from legit vendors benefit LE and their fake vendor account?... are you saying LE is watching everyone's mailbox that tried to order from them?  Even if they did watch and we did order from other vendors, same CD rules apply... anyone can order anything to anyone's address.

This is really not that hard to understand. If I am driving my car around a "drug neighborhood" then I might get pulled over, searched and ticketed. in these same neighborhoods cops routinely run stings and reverse stings.

Why are you claiming that the cops wouldn't do this?

There's a big difference between the IRL drug market and SR, and this one difference is key to the safety of SR buyers.  IRL, one of the main methods used by LE for rolling up drug networks is to bust low level users, get them to give up their low level dealer, and then move up the chain as far as possible. Under the right circumstances, one low level user bust could result in taking down a major drug supplier, and that is the motivation to spend the resources to bust occasional users. In the SR case, this does not apply.  Busting a small time SR buyer doesn't lead to anything; the buyer knows his/her SR source only by the SR name and LE already knows the SR names of all of the SR vendors. Spending any significant amount of resources to bust an individual buyer won't lead to anything. No one at FBI headquarters will even get an attaboy by fucking around with small scale SR buyers.

Obviously, taking DPR and the entire SR structure down was a LE priority (senators are bitching!), and an easy bust of a large scale vendor and a few of their customers serves to instill some fear into all of us. I'm sure LE is happy about that, but I don't see then spending any time or effort on the average buyer. They'll maybe spend their energy on SM, BMR, and whatever new SR appears, although I predict that the next focus for the government will be wiping out Bitcoin. Don't kid yourself that they can't and won't do that.

Also - no one is going to be doing ballpoint pen ink lot analysis to bust anyone.

A little paranoia and a large helping of good safe practice is well worth it, but let's all keep some perspective.

[oldschool]

If a vendor sent me a weight purchase with a handwritten tag, I would never have ordered again. Part of securely vending is making your packages look official. Printed addresses, with a return address that is genuine, an genuinely not yours. There is a whole thread on vendor security on the dkn255 forum, and it details all types of things that are mistakes. From packaging materials, to package appearance.

[frosty@frosty]

I wonder how FriendlyChemist "hacked" a vendor account?

Presumably by guessing a weak password. The question is why DPR would feel responsible for this and be willing to resort to murder , when it was not a fault in the silk road system at all. The whole FriendlyChemist / redandwhite saga sounds like DPR was scammed , probably by the same person who sent him some kind of staged photo of the victim. Its worth noting that this whole series of events apparently took place well after the fake hit arranged by the UC FBI agents (for which DPR paid 80k from a bank account in Australia) . Maybe DPR had gotten used to thinking he could get away with having people killed.

[aussieoutlaw]

Is this where I state something as fact and have absolutely no proof? I just want to fit in here.

[NotACop]

Is this where I state something as fact and have absolutely no proof? I just want to fit in here.

I hope you are talking about confession! Because if you confess something and the police hear about it -it will be used against you in court!

Of course any evidence to the contrary that is -showing your innocence is merely hearsay evidence and not allowed. So go ahead and confess it here.

I love to hear stuff like this.

[OperationsSecurity(OPSEC)]

Cops were already on to him, for importing drugs to his PO boxes which he stupidly also used as a return address for mailing cash and drugs. They assumed he was small time and kind of ignored it until NOD shipped to a guy in Alaska who was busted and promptly ratted where he got it from and showed investigator's NOD's SR listings.

Cops noticed he was a major vendor who had multiple reviews, decided to bust him (DPR opsec violation: police use reviews as evidence you are a major supplier).

Caught him and his g/f on video dropping off packages by going inside the post office and mailing them. He/She was using fake ID but eventually they got his g/f's license plate number and found them both, then they got busted.

Lesson learned: don't go into post offices to mail shit. Don't use your PO box as a return address, steal somebody else's identity for each package. Don't use similar packaging materials and methods. Don't drive directly there and get your plates on camera. Park a block away and physically walk there if you absolutely have to go inside. They both got bail surprisingly. I would be leaving the country right about now.

[Mr.X]

the best way to avoid the cops is to walk backwards when leaving a crime scene. This way, when the police attempt to track your footprints, they will go the wrong way

[Jeks]

Cops noticed he was a major vendor who had multiple reviews, decided to bust him (DPR opsec violation: police use reviews as evidence you are a major supplier).

Is there a way to solve that opsec problem and still have vendor/buyer trust?

[OperationsSecurity(OPSEC)]

Cops noticed he was a major vendor who had multiple reviews, decided to bust him (DPR opsec violation: police use reviews as evidence you are a major supplier).

Is there a way to solve that opsec problem and still have vendor/buyer trust?

Plenty of flaws in the old review system. Especially a free-form customers can enter which almost always told everybody where they are "Received 5 days to Miami, FL" and other OpSec problems. Some sort of rating system that doesn't list all your transactions, or the number of ratings like ebay does and instead just gives a rating as reliable or not reliable would be better. Copying eBay and listing every single transaction was a completely bad idea. DPR had it set for 4 or 5 months pruning, but still the feds could see NOD sold x amount of heroin and x amount of coke into the thousands thus he was bigtime.

[Not looks like. Is]

Yeah I think that was part of the thinking with the new feedback system that was just introduced, making it so not everyone would leave review. The original system was like a real time readout of vendor activity. Its hard to design a system that is informative to customers but not informative to LE.
        Ah those were the days.....when all we had to bitch about was the rating system tweaks! I guess a lot of us had become complacent, I know I had. It just seemed normal to be able to order drugs online.

[mixology]

The review system is fucked anyway - huge pressure to leave 5/5 or the vendor blacklists you. Would it be better to just use the # of transactions as resolution %?

[Sam I Am]

I wonder how FriendlyChemist "hacked" a vendor account?

Presumably by guessing a weak password. The question is why DPR would feel responsible for this and be willing to resort to murder , when it was not a fault in the silk road system at all. The whole FriendlyChemist / redandwhite saga sounds like DPR was scammed , probably by the same person who sent him some kind of staged photo of the victim. Its worth noting that this whole series of events apparently took place well after the fake hit arranged by the UC FBI agents (for which DPR paid 80k from a bank account in Australia) . Maybe DPR had gotten used to thinking he could get away with having people killed.

I know this is going to sound stupid but I don't believe it. I don't believe the fbi's evidence. I think they are liars and I think the evidence they have is too easy to fake.

[OperationsSecurity(OPSEC)]

I think 'FriendlyChemist' is unfriendly LE and set up DPR for a big scam. Why else would he disappear after being "killed" by redandwhite. They are the same people: confidential informants or cops. Probably thought they could follow the money trail but DPR paid out Technocash through 3rd party and they got nothing, so cops tried again a few months later.

[Rastaman Vibration]

While I had heard of LE making 100 controlled purchases as they called them, I never heard of LE making controlled sales through SR.  Can anyone confirm if this is true?  I'd like to assume that LE couldn't pose as sellers and actually ship product, but now that I think about it, what was preventing them from doing that?  Sure they can't setup as vendors, send the contraband and just say cya later and let you keep it.  But what was/is stopping them from getting a vendor account, pumping up the feedback, and then allowing buyers to place orders and setting up controlled deliveries of the goods?  The only logical answers to me are either 1. they don't have the time/money/resources 2. they don't care about buyers so much as to do this 3. it's somehow unlawful (entrapment).  What do you think?

I don't think evidence exists of LE running vendor accounts (yet), but as the FBI set up a site to distribute child porn I consider it a possibility.

Except for that package of "a mixture of substance containing a detectable amount of cocaine" the feds sent the SR "employee".

[OperationsSecurity(OPSEC)]

While I had heard of LE making 100 controlled purchases as they called them, I never heard of LE making controlled sales through SR.  Can anyone confirm if this is true?  I'd like to assume that LE couldn't pose as sellers and actually ship product, but now that I think about it, what was preventing them from doing that?  Sure they can't setup as vendors, send the contraband and just say cya later and let you keep it.  But what was/is stopping them from getting a vendor account, pumping up the feedback, and then allowing buyers to place orders and setting up controlled deliveries of the goods?  The only logical answers to me are either 1. they don't have the time/money/resources 2. they don't care about buyers so much as to do this 3. it's somehow unlawful (entrapment).  What do you think?

I don't think evidence exists of LE running vendor accounts (yet), but as the FBI set up a site to distribute child porn I consider it a possibility.

Except for that package of "a mixture of substance containing a detectable amount of cocaine" the feds sent the SR "employee".

Secret Service and FBI ran multiple sting boards for a while handling escrow, taking payments for listings and then waited a year or so before busting everybody. http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/06/fbi-hauls-in-24-credit-card-hackers-in-online-sting/

They also were an ID vendor for 4 years http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/07/open-market/

and if you go on hackforums  you'll probably find them selling money laundering services to catch booters and bot makers/affiliates.

[thecreep3r]

Nod and his girlfriend used post offices all over the city and they still had so many dropoffs that the postal workers remembered them.

Had they been dropping pkgs. anonymously, postal workers would not have been handed the opportunity to A--remember them making drop offs and B--take down their tag number.  The mistakes NOD made that lead to his demise are of the same variety DPR made.   

[Energo]

If you've looked at the Nod busts then you should realize that the cops were on some other website as Vendors and Buyers.

1) The cops would use their own Buyer accounts to prop up their Seller Accounts.

2) Then with the Seller accounts they would gather as many names as possible.

2a) The basic idea was that the buyers would buy from other (legitimate) vendors

3) Then the cops would lean on the buyer and try to triangle the dealer.

This is what happened to Nod. Not that I or anyone here is suggesting anything illegal. But there has to be a way around this system. Let's look at a system that is similar that the US government would actually support.

Think of a tor network server that hosts communications between Iranian dissidents. (US interests want Iran's oil more than the sweet virgin Mary herself).  This server allows Iranians to plan a coup, exchange ideas, trade secrets and share weapons. (Looky CIA -see there is a useful purpose for us afterall). How would such an exchange limit access by (in that case Iranian) law enforcement?

LE can't openly sell drugs to people in the mail unless they plan on doing controlled deliveries.



For personal amounts, it's a pretty slim chance they'll actually get off their asses to pull of some CD's. They are after the big dogs on here.


I get where you're coming from but as long as the buyer doesn't go buying bulk from a brand new vendor, then it's not going to happen.

[Energo]

Might I also add that it will be almost impossible to keep the cops out. These guys are good at what they do.



Instead, commerce only with people you trust.

[NotACopsDog]

<sniff>

[Flemish Master]

LE can't openly sell drugs to people in the mail unless they plan on doing controlled deliveries.

Bollocks. You know what an undercover narcotics officer is? A liar.

Don't trust them to follow the law, they certainly don't trust you.

[ULW981]

LE can't openly sell drugs to people in the mail unless they plan on doing controlled deliveries.

Bollocks. You know what an undercover narcotics officer is? A liar.

Don't trust them to follow the law, they certainly don't trust you.

I agree, LE will do what ever they need..This is their JOB this is what they do everyday...if your good at it you know how you can push the system..Just think of your job and if someone came by and started to tell you what to do ...you would be like ..STFU....same here..the best thing to do is keep your mouth shut and ask for a lawyer...because they can take ..i don't know,  and make it sound like YES i have drugs buried in my back yard under the tree next to the shed.......please just be quit and get someone  who knows the game...

[OperationsSecurity(OPSEC)]

LE will say on the stand that their confidential informant sent the drugs.

[oracle]

I think 'FriendlyChemist' is unfriendly LE and set up DPR for a big scam. Why else would he disappear after being "killed" by redandwhite. They are the same people: confidential informants or cops. Probably thought they could follow the money trail but DPR paid out Technocash through 3rd party and they got nothing, so cops tried again a few months later.

FriendlyChemist and redandwhite were the same person. It was not LE. It was a scam. And completely unrelated to the staged "hit" in Maryland.

[Sam I Am]

There still is no satisfactory solution. Merely asking someone "Are you a cop" doesn't work because well, cops are liars.

Another problem which does not occur in real life is that if your friend gets taken down -you know the cops face and therefore there is nothing which would convince you to do business with them... not so on the anonymous web.

There are so many of these problems which need to be overcome.

[dont worry be happy]

If you've looked at the Nod busts then you should realize that the cops were on some other website as Vendors and Buyers.

1) The cops would use their own Buyer accounts to prop up their Seller Accounts.

2) Then with the Seller accounts they would gather as many names as possible.

2a) The basic idea was that the buyers would buy from other (legitimate) vendors

3) Then the cops would lean on the buyer and try to triangle the dealer.

I agree this might be a method LE could use.

Accumulate a bunch of addresses of prospective buyers.
Watch their mail and intercept package from legitimate vendor.
With co-operation from buyer, continue to order from vendor.
Use return addresses, post office it was sent from, style of packaging, whatever they can to try to find vendors.

I was new to SR, only had half a dozen transactions. 2 of those were cancelled by the vendor after I placed the order and sent my address.
I thought at the time they must have just not wanted to do business with me cause I was a newbie, but now I'm not sure, maybe they were LE collecting addresses.

I wouldn't put anything past these sneaky bastards.

[RedNight]

Wouldn't these methods by LE be pretty useless for international orders? For example if they had one of my post boxes or safe houses under watch and found a lot of packages containing large orders coming from the same post office in Germany, or France or Spain or even Columbia, it's not so simple for those cops to fly over to that PO, or give the local police a call and explain what's going on. They have a kinds of barriers - language, jurisdiction, whether the cops on the other end even give a shit about this online drug trading.. Realistically, it would have to be Feds to get anything done wouldn't it?

[NotACop]

Wouldn't these methods by LE be pretty useless for international orders? For example if they had one of my post boxes or safe houses under watch and found a lot of packages containing large orders coming from the same post office in Germany, or France or Spain or even Columbia, it's not so simple for those cops to fly over to that PO, or give the local police a call and explain what's going on. They have a kinds of barriers - language, jurisdiction, whether the cops on the other end even give a shit about this online drug trading.. Realistically, it would have to be Feds to get anything done wouldn't it?

Unfortunately no. Wait a minute, I forgot my place...

Hey Guys!

Don't worry about international cops because they never cooperate with American cops.  In fact, having your shipment jump borders is an excuse for customs to look at it.

So don't ever, worry about buying something illegal if it's shipped overseas and don't do drugs.

NAC out!

[Synergy]

Wouldn't these methods by LE be pretty useless for international orders? For example if they had one of my post boxes or safe houses under watch and found a lot of packages containing large orders coming from the same post office in Germany, or France or Spain or even Columbia, it's not so simple for those cops to fly over to that PO, or give the local police a call and explain what's going on. They have a kinds of barriers - language, jurisdiction, whether the cops on the other end even give a shit about this online drug trading.. Realistically, it would have to be Feds to get anything done wouldn't it?

^^^ This is terrible advice, please refrain from offering your subjective opinion on matters that could cost somebody their liberty.

[rasputin]

Might I also add that it will be almost impossible to keep the cops out. These guys are good at what they do.

Instead, commerce only with people you trust.

Great advice.

It's not like Nod had the trust of the community or anything.