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Discussion => Security => Topic started by: bluedev1 on July 17, 2013, 02:29 am

Title: REMINDER: 'anything you say can or will be used against you in a court of law'
Post by: bluedev1 on July 17, 2013, 02:29 am
This is a thread about an issue that I think deserves more attention in general.  This is in regards to how we communicate OUTSIDE SR about illegal things.   The bottom line is do not use code language, don't even talk about anything related to the subject, anywhere except in person.  If you need to meet up with your dealer or buyer, just say 'can I see you?' or 'want to hang out?', nothing more.  Not, 'hey did you get those bananas?' or "i need something" or "thanks for introducing me to lucy, she is awesome" or anything like that. 

Example: you know someone who sells drugs, or you sell drugs, and you want to communicate via text msg, or facebook, or email, to someone you know, a friend, about them, so you 'stealthily' (NOT) use other language to conceal it.

e.g. 'hey bro, i was wondering if we could work on that project tonight.  let me know.'

Seems like a completely innocent message, right?  Well, it's not going to be used a primary evidence.  But it CAN be used as leading evidence, especially if you get asked about said 'project' that you supposedly worked on, and so does your friend, and your stories don't match.  Get it now? 

The less you say the better because anything, absolutely anything, can or will be used against you.

And if you don't want to be put in the awkward position of being questioned about YOUR dealer being busted, if your real-life dealer uses some kind of lingo like this, either don't respond, or say I don't know what you're talking about, or I'll talk to you later, so that at least you have plausible deniability.  If your dealer txts you and says 'Hey i got some fresh apples, want any?' and you reply as if you're actually talking about apples, you're now a suspect as well.  Have a talk with them in person and just tell them the same thing -- don't use code language at all, don't even talk about it.  If you need to 'hang out' keep it at that. 

This is possibly the most common thing I see with people dealing with drugs these days.  They think they are protecting themselves by using some lingo that would not raise any flags.  But they don't realize that they have no idea how evidence will be collected and used to try and prosecute them.  They will go after ANYTHING THEY CAN to prosecute you and they do it for a living so it's best to say nothing at all except in person.   (and even there, if you're doing "big things", keep all cell phones away while talking about stuff, because there have been profiled cases of drug busts where cell phones were turned into roving microphones for LE.  I wouldn't worry about that as much if you're just buying a gram of weed but if you think you'd make a good target for the DEA, you need to take this precaution seriously.)

Similarly, if you're arrested, tell them you're invoking your right to silence and won't answer any questions until your attorney is present.   No matter what a cop says, you have to know your rights and stick to them because they will lie to your face and threaten you and make up all kinds of bullshit to get you to talk.  Memorize a good drug lawyer's number because you won't be given your phone or wallet or any way to contact who you need to.   

Title: Re: REMINDER: 'anything you say can or will be used against you in a court of law'
Post by: Nightcrawler on July 17, 2013, 03:54 am
This is a thread about an issue that I think deserves more attention in general.  This is in regards to how we communicate OUTSIDE SR about illegal things.   The bottom line is do not use code language, don't even talk about anything related to the subject, anywhere except in person.  If you need to meet up with your dealer or buyer, just say 'can I see you?' or 'want to hang out?', nothing more.  Not, 'hey did you get those bananas?' or "i need something" or "thanks for introducing me to lucy, she is awesome" or anything like that. 

Example: you know someone who sells drugs, or you sell drugs, and you want to communicate via text msg, or facebook, or email, to someone you know, a friend, about them, so you 'stealthily' (NOT) use other language to conceal it.

e.g. 'hey bro, i was wondering if we could work on that project tonight.  let me know.'

Seems like a completely innocent message, right?  Well, it's not going to be used a primary evidence.  But it CAN be used as leading evidence, especially if you get asked about said 'project' that you supposedly worked on, and so does your friend, and your stories don't match.  Get it now? 

The less you say the better because anything, absolutely anything, can or will be used against you.

And if you don't want to be put in the awkward position of being questioned about YOUR dealer being busted, if your real-life dealer uses some kind of lingo like this, either don't respond, or say I don't know what you're talking about, or I'll talk to you later, so that at least you have plausible deniability.  If your dealer txts you and says 'Hey i got some fresh apples, want any?' and you reply as if you're actually talking about apples, you're now a suspect as well.  Have a talk with them in person and just tell them the same thing -- don't use code language at all, don't even talk about it.  If you need to 'hang out' keep it at that. 

This is possibly the most common thing I see with people dealing with drugs these days.  They think they are protecting themselves by using some lingo that would not raise any flags.  But they don't realize that they have no idea how evidence will be collected and used to try and prosecute them.  They will go after ANYTHING THEY CAN to prosecute you and they do it for a living so it's best to say nothing at all except in person.   (and even there, if you're doing "big things", keep all cell phones away while talking about stuff, because there have been profiled cases of drug busts where cell phones were turned into roving microphones for LE.  I wouldn't worry about that as much if you're just buying a gram of weed but if you think you'd make a good target for the DEA, you need to take this precaution seriously.)

Similarly, if you're arrested, tell them you're invoking your right to silence and won't answer any questions until your attorney is present.   No matter what a cop says, you have to know your rights and stick to them because they will lie to your face and threaten you and make up all kinds of bullshit to get you to talk.  Memorize a good drug lawyer's number because you won't be given your phone or wallet or any way to contact who you need to.

Excellent post!  +1

Nightcrawler
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Title: Re: REMINDER: 'anything you say can or will be used against you in a court of law'
Post by: tbart on July 17, 2013, 05:48 am
another trick they'll play, besides the 'good cop/bad cop" routine

this happened twice to me - one time, i had rented a garage (i was a landlord with 77 apts + garages) to someone who had given false ID
= well, he failed to pay any rent after the first month, when i called his place of work, they hadnt heard of him

talked to my attorney, and he said someone who didn't exist, couldn't be served so i'd be good to go to cut the lock and go into the garage. I did. What i found were four phone jacks with different phone numbers grease penciled on them. I wrote them down and called them. They were all to outcall escort svcs - same voice answering but each with different name, ie "charlie's angels" or AAA out call, etc

finally on the fourth call i realized why the 4 phone jacks were there. The garage was in the historic district of the city - back then, prostitution was big, and the outcall svcs were the way to go. They were renting the garage so they could get a city phone number close to the convention hotels, but they were call forwarding the calls to outlying county phones. The day before there was a big article in the paper about this very subject about the operators renting space on the wall in auto garages for a phone jack, for this very reason and the fact that there had been a big raid (a three munciipality task force - the two outlying counties + the city), netting 31 co-conspirators being indicted, including the VP of a major corp here in my city.

 So i called the city police vice dept, and told a detective named xxx, i think you missed one and told him what i'd found.

well, it's about april 15th, so i'm doing my taxes - i get a phone call asking for charlie xxx that owns the garage behind xxx Colonial ave - i respond, you've got him and they hand up. about 15 minutes later i get a similiar call and again respond the same and they hang up. 2 minutes later there's the doorbell ringing and i answer it - it's a vice detective from the county and the commonwealth's atty for that county at my door (those calls were from them making sure i was home). They wanted to talk to me - "sure i said, come on in" (mistake by the way, they had no authority in the city) - anyway, here comes the "trick"  or manuever - they're sitting down in my living room when the vice detective pulls a heavy chair and ottoman over so he could sit at one of my knees while the commonwealth's atty sat at the other - and they plied me with questions, rapid fire - after about 6-7 questions i felt like i was watching a rapid fire ping pong competition - my fucking neck hurt. I stood up and said - "gentlemen, i assume you wnat my cooperation - i'm going in the kitchen to pour myself a cup of coffee, and (turning to the vice detective) said "if you want it, you'll move that chair and ottoman back where it was (he was using the ottoman to put a small tape recorder on). If you don't, you can get the fuck out".

when i came back with the coffee they'd move the furniture back where it had been, and asked me, what's your relationship with "xxx" and i said, it's a simple one, it's a cash relationship". The next question was "how" - and i said simple, he rented the garage and paid me rent in cash. Did you know what he was using it for? And i responded, not initally but i learned what the true purpose was not too long ago. That's when they asked " why didn't you report it?" and i said i did, to vice detective xxx, city of xxx vice division, don't you clowns talk to each other?"

point is two fold - the two "cops" sitting at each knee asking questions rapid fire and the trying to "sneak" their authority into the city when they were county, not city.

it happened again, one time in canada, when i put a fucking gas stove (THINK kerosun heater that runs on propane) up for sale on a radio talk show (The Swap show) - i'd bought it at a freight auction for $15, it was brand new with a dent on one side, and taken it to my hunting camp, only to find the fucking hissing noise it makes drove me crazy, so i put it up for sale for the grand total of $30 CDN (about $22 USD). They were investigating me for selling undeclared goods (and un taxed) - i hadn't declared it cause i intended to take it back to a camp i had in the states, but after discovering how noisy the damn thing was, decided to sell it. They pulled the same trick, moving some furniture in my cabin so one was sitting at each of my knees. After the first question from the junior detective i did the same thing, said i was going to make myself a cup of coffee, and that while i had offered them my cooperation if they wanted it to continue, they'd move the furniture back where it was when they came in.

it's a common trick, they'll try to rapid fire you with questions and catch you off guard - be knowedgeable of it, and don't loose your cool, fuck em - if they don't like it, tell em you want to talk to your atty

in fact, if you're guilty, the smartest thing is NOT TO SAY ANYTHING, but if you're on the edge of being guilty, keep the above in mind

they all study from the same book - and one thing funny about the canadian rcmp, keep in mind two detectives spent 3 days investigating me (traveling 1.5 hours from the big city to my camp) talking to my neighbors, OVER A FUCKING $30 CDN HEATING STOVE. Two cops spent nearly 3 full days (salary X 2) investigating a fucking yank advertising a $30 stove that might not have been declared and the tax on it paid. Point is, cops are bored, incognicent of cost vs recovery ratio, and hoping (desperately) this next case, or lead would be the "Al Capone" case that would make their career. Cops are usually dumber than a bag of bricks, and factor that into their zeal for career advancement, especially when there's no cost restraint in their investigations.

Layer on top of that the "sexyiness" of a big drug bust (nevermind you only bought 7G of cannabis) and you get the picture. When someone sez the cops will never follow the buyers, after raiding a vendor - remember the above
Title: Re: REMINDER: 'anything you say can or will be used against you in a court of law'
Post by: Veetano on July 17, 2013, 06:27 am
Using code language should be avoided if possibly but it does have it's uses. Of course it's not going to help when they have obvious evidence it is about drugs, as if they were working with your dealer and trying to bust you with conspiracy..... other than that, talking about something like apples would prevent any alarms from getting triggered such as some of the words on the NSA keyword list, where if certain phrases and what not are mentioned in texts your phone will be flagged and the message possibly investigated, though this is typically only for terrorism.

If your dealer or you gets caught and they have texts of you talking about apples, but your dealer nor you will talk, then they simply can't use that against you. They can't just say words in texts are referring to drugs unless they have some direct evidence stating other wise.

I always prefer phone calls... it would simply be unrealistic to meet up with somebody on a unconfirmed buy... big time waster.. you don't know what they want... etc, no need to carry with you excess product, etc.
Title: Re: REMINDER: 'anything you say can or will be used against you in a court of law'
Post by: Rastaman Vibration on July 17, 2013, 07:37 am
Good info here, thanks for posting!
Title: Re: REMINDER: 'anything you say can or will be used against you in a court of law'
Post by: c13hqPX7d on July 17, 2013, 08:32 am
I always thought you use code lingo to prevent saying keywords that might alarm any kind of surveillance system. Of course it sounds very suspicious when you always write about apples, a project or whatever with one person. But does that matter? As long as you say nothing to LE, all hard info they have is that you are an apple connaisseur who works a lot on an endless project. And why not? :)

Personally, I dont like talking about illegal things on the phone as well, it just doesnt feel right. I still do it, because it is the fastest and easiest way to "place an order" IRL.
Title: Re: REMINDER: 'anything you say can or will be used against you in a court of law'
Post by: zxydwx3 on July 17, 2013, 08:45 am
It's been a long time since I dealt with any dealers, but we used to just ask "are you happening?" on the phone, then follow a coded system for explaining what I wanted.  Certainly never sent any SMS/text messages. Not sure how much protection this provides, but my experience is that when you're at the point of having the police on your doorstep, plausible deniability is only going help in court, not keep you from getting arrested.
Title: Re: REMINDER: 'anything you say can or will be used against you in a court of law'
Post by: bluedev1 on July 17, 2013, 10:09 am
my experience is that when you're at the point of having the police on your doorstep, plausible deniability is only going help in court, not keep you from getting arrested.

exactly right.  i'm not saying that if you txt your dealer and say 'got any apples?' that this is going to justify a warrant or an investigation.  this is really for protecting yourself in cases where something else goes wrong outside your purview and there is an investigation going on unbeknownst to you. 

also to answer some of your questions -- if you trust that the other person will say nothing to LE about the 'apples' or the 'project' and they trust you to do the same, that's one thing.  personally, i do not trust anyone except myself in these matters. 

also consider when multiple parties are involved, you are asking for trouble by using lingo.  let's say the dealer calls their drugs 'apples' to everyone they talk to, and just one of the people the cops question spills and admits it is about drugs.  now, without you or your dealer saying anything, you have become a prime suspect.  trust me, there are a million angles to gather evidence from and they will figure out where the weakest link is and attack it using every trick in the book, usually with some level of success when dealing with people who are scared, don't know their rights, have never had to consult with an attorney, are being threatened with jail time (legitimate or not), etc..

the point is, code language might avoid raising automatic flags of some kind, but it's a mistake to think this is all one should be worried about.  if other evidence has been obtained to warrant an investigation, all evidence will be considered by the prosecutors and they will decide which pieces to use to make their case.   do you really want to deal with having cops questioning you?  do you really want to be a suspect?  absolutely not.  this is not just about making sure you don't go to jail.  this is about making sure you do not foolishly give them evidence to use unnecessarily. 

it's the same reason you say NOTHING to a cop when being arrested without your attorney present.  because even if you say something like 'i didn't do anything wrong' the cop could then write on the affidavit that you seemed anxious and combative or some other bullshit.  trust me on this one -- they only want to arrest people they feel they have a decent chance of prosecuting successfully.  don't help them in court.  you have to consider that each piece of evidence could potentially be dismissed, so the less they have the better your odds are.

if you absolutely have to develop a code for what you need from your dealer so if they're meeting you they only carry what they need to, i suggest you keep any and all talk about an exchange of anything out of it.  do not say do you need this, or i need that.   it may not get you arrested but the point is you don't even want to be on the radar to begin with.  you can still do what you need to do and not foolishly put yourself at risk.

anyways, this is just my advice as someone who has witnessed how the legal system prosecutes people and they literally will piece together all kinds of stuff you would think is innocuous until you put it next to this, that, and the other thing, and then there is literally zero doubt about what is going on.  again, if you're a dealer, it might not be used as primary evidence, but it could be used as leading evidence to justify questioning certain people.  why give them the ammo?

stay safe out there =)