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Discussion => Security => Topic started by: britishone99 on November 15, 2012, 12:47 pm

Title: UK Legal Advice
Post by: britishone99 on November 15, 2012, 12:47 pm
Hi people,


Ok so as the title goes, I need a little legal advice for the UK.


A friend of mine has been caught by the police with drugs with intent to supply (not sure how much he was carrying, but I imagine under 1oz but more than half an oz). The problem here is that I supply him with his wholesale amounts (namely ketamine and mdma). The police have confiscated his phone and have had access to all his texts/calls, many are from myself regarding transactions and drugs etc (weak on my part I know), nothing too detailed but obviously this means they have my full name as he saved it in his phone which is the worrying part to say the least.

So here are the facts;

1. The police have my first name and surname attached to a pay as you go phone I use (not my main phone), so untraceable, correct?

2. I have been in trouble with the police before for other petty crime (nothing drug related) could this pose a problem?

3. Would you advise me to switch numbers ASAP and phones (tracing IMEI numbers etc)?

4. The police have informed him not to speak to me or anyone else for that matter as he will be charged with interferring with the “ongoing case” they have.

5. Given all this information, am I worrying about nothing?

6. Lastly, currently for obvious reasons giving up dealing at the moment is not an option. Is there a safer way I can go under the radar and continue my business safely?

If you need to know anything more (that isn't sensitive) please ask!



Thanks guys :)
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: KazushiS58 on November 15, 2012, 02:43 pm
Hopefully more people with experience will chip in on here to help you out, until then...

As long as its a pay and go phone and you haven't got your name assigned to it anywhere then that should be fine. If you bought it with a card or topped it up with one then they can link it to your bank details, although that's not an easy thing for them to do,  so hopefully you do all that with cash where possible.

But I would still say get rid of the phone.
First off they have to find out who this 'John Smith' is on your mates phone. If he won't tell them (hopefully he won't) then they will ask his relatives or acquaintances during questioning or they may be able to search your name on the system and your previous petty crimes could show up.
The thing is they have to tie you to the messages with solid evidence, its not enough that your name matches and you're known acquaintances. Without your phone they only have speculation and coincidence. He could have saved that number under any name without your phone they can't say you're definitely the same 'John Smith'.
I'd suggest taking it apart, damaging the pieces (SIM, memory card ) and then throwing them in a public bin, maybe separate bins.

Before you do check your texts to him, at any point did you:
-Give out a street name (meet me on green lane)
-describe your car (i'll be there, look out for a white ford)
-arrange to meet anywhere that may have had cameras? (meet me on Tesco car park at 8 ) They'll go to Tesco and try to review any CCTV from the date of the text at the time
-mention any email addresses, other phone numbers or other peoples names

If you did any of the above then there is not much you can do now but you need to be prepared.

Regarding the police telling him not to talk to anyone and using the term 'ongoing case' I'd guess they are looking to get hold of anyone he has worked with. They usually try to move up and get the supplier where possible. I can't say for sure as I don't know the details of his arrest.

You say giving up dealing is not an option but a temporary shutdown would be a good approach. If not I'd say get rid of your gear from anywhere that could be linked to you. I don't know your set up but you need to put some space between you and the stuff. People always worry about being followed by the police but in reality that's not something that happens often. It costs too much in time and man power to have them following you in the hope they see you doing something. Generally they'll push for a search warrant if they can. So they'll turn up when you least expect it to search your house and/or car. Nowadays they'll also bring a sniffer dog as well so it has to be properly cleaned not just look it but smell it as well, throw some bleach around or something.

I'm sure you already are doing this but you should try to find info on search warrants, how the UK police approach an issue like this, what can they/can't they do and how to clean somewhere that formally had a stash. If you've got money then sound out a solicitor/lawyer for advice. It'll cost you but they'll tell you everything you need to know and they are legally obliged to keep everything you say a secret.
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: Revolutionista on November 15, 2012, 03:36 pm
Ditch the phone and sim immediately. Police detectives are the police you rarely see but should fear the most. If they go down the legal route of accessing his phone (which is a very time consuming one) rest assured theyre looking to use the information found in it. They wouldnt build a case around trying to prove those texts were proof of a transaction going down theyd simply get a warrent to tap future calls and texts and let you seal you own coffin. Monitoring calls is only possible if they are already listening to you. ie they dont store them whereas networks keep messages months. its common practice if your stupid enough to have a del phone with no lock on it a detective WILL look in your phone despite the fact he has no legal right to. Any info he gets he simply uses 'unnamed sources' as his excuse to investigate further until he has probable cause to make it valid in court.
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: Triangle on November 15, 2012, 03:45 pm
Hi people,


Ok so as the title goes, I need a little legal advice for the UK.


A friend of mine has been caught by the police with drugs with intent to supply (not sure how much he was carrying, but I imagine under 1oz but more than half an oz). The problem here is that I supply him with his wholesale amounts (namely ketamine and mdma). The police have confiscated his phone and have had access to all his texts/calls, many are from myself regarding transactions and drugs etc (weak on my part I know), nothing too detailed but obviously this means they have my full name as he saved it in his phone which is the worrying part to say the least.

So here are the facts;

1. The police have my first name and surname attached to a pay as you go phone I use (not my main phone), so untraceable, correct?

2. I have been in trouble with the police before for other petty crime (nothing drug related) could this pose a problem?

3. Would you advise me to switch numbers ASAP and phones (tracing IMEI numbers etc)?

4. The police have informed him not to speak to me or anyone else for that matter as he will be charged with interferring with the “ongoing case” they have.

5. Given all this information, am I worrying about nothing?

6. Lastly, currently for obvious reasons giving up dealing at the moment is not an option. Is there a safer way I can go under the radar and continue my business safely?

If you need to know anything more (that isn't sensitive) please ask!

Poster above has it covered pretty well:


1. If you purchased the SIM card from a shop it won't be connected to your name, if you bought it online it will be registered to you and the phone company will have your address. Though if you're saved in his phone as your full name it won't matter because of number 2:

2. If you have been in "trouble with the police" i.e you've spent any time in a cell regardless of for how long, your information (finger prints, address etc) will be on the system. Though this doesn't cause a problem, it does make it easier for them to find you if they want to.

3. Stop using that phone and sim card immediately. Bin it away from your house.

4. If they've informed him not to speak to you that suggests they're pursuing investigation. You should stop what you are doing, clean your house and wait. As you say though you're not gonna do this so:

Remove any drugs, paraphenalia and large amounts of cash from your house and car. Do not stash things in your garden/in the vicinity of a house as UK police stop and search powers allow the immediate area surrounding you to be searched.

Use a different phone for all deals and avoid the guy that got arrested at all costs. You may trust him but if he's been threatened with a prison sentence he could still grass.

 
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: britishone99 on November 15, 2012, 03:52 pm
Hi,

Thanks for the prompt and informative replies guys.

Just to address some issues:

There are no personal details on the texts i.e. Streets, cars, meeting places numbers or names to my knowledge just things like "meet at my place" or "meet usual place" or I'd call him/her to arrange a meet again always stating "usual place" etc so I don't think this should pose a risk.

Regarding ditching the phone and SIM card, I think this goes without saying. However there is a big BUT here. That number is linked to many of my customers (my financial lifeline) so I cannot simply "get rid" of the number as it's probably my most valuable tool, however replacing the phone with a new one is no problem. To combat this, would it be wise to buy a new number/SIM and when I receive calls/texts on the "compromised" phone I then ignore those calls/texts and call back on my new number asking them to save the new one etc if you catch where i'm coming from (i.e. as a slow process, switching all customer to the new number)?

Thx :)
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: danknugsdun on November 15, 2012, 03:53 pm
Not weak on your part so don't beat yourself up about it. When I used to transact in street deals sms/phone calls were main points of contact, no encryption etc...

Being from the UK I hope some of this can help;

1. Depends where the sim was bought, if you bought it online then yes your name and address are attached. If from a corner shop then no you are ok.
2. Usually they will bring up your past if you are arrested and go to court. Certain crimes are dealt with by Crown courts and some by the Magistrates.
3. Yeah, ditch the sim and phone, dispose of it AWAY from your locality.
4. ???
5. Of course you will be worried, but that's what lawyers are for
6. I've never dealt with MDMA, but I'm sure vacuum bagging and good concealment wouldn't go a miss. There are many encrypted sms services available for smartphones.

Finally remove/conceal everything drug related in your home. Any cash you have lying around take to one of your pals to hold on to for a while.
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: britishone99 on November 15, 2012, 03:58 pm
Not weak on your part so don't beat yourself up about it. When I used to transact in street deals sms/phone calls were main points of contact, no encryption etc...

Being from the UK I hope some of this can help;

1. Depends where the sim was bought, if you bought it online then yes your name and address are attached. If from a corner shop then no you are ok.
2. Usually they will bring up your past if you are arrested and go to court. Certain crimes are dealt with by Crown courts and some by the Magistrates.
3. Yeah, ditch the sim and phone, dispose of it AWAY from your locality.
4. ???
5. Of course you will be worried, but that's what lawyers are for
6. I've never dealt with MDMA, but I'm sure vacuum bagging and good concealment wouldn't go a miss. There are many encrypted sms services available for smartphones.

Finally remove/conceal everything drug related in your home. Any cash you have lying around take to one of your pals to hold on to for a while.

Hi,

Thanks for the input!

To quote you and the poster/s above, I bought the SIM a while back from a large well know supermarket chain and as far as I can remember I paid cash for it (however this said supermarket would have had CCTV) however, as I say it was probably 3-4 months ago.

Thx
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: danknugsdun on November 15, 2012, 04:03 pm
Not weak on your part so don't beat yourself up about it. When I used to transact in street deals sms/phone calls were main points of contact, no encryption etc...

Being from the UK I hope some of this can help;

1. Depends where the sim was bought, if you bought it online then yes your name and address are attached. If from a corner shop then no you are ok.
2. Usually they will bring up your past if you are arrested and go to court. Certain crimes are dealt with by Crown courts and some by the Magistrates.
3. Yeah, ditch the sim and phone, dispose of it AWAY from your locality.
4. ???
5. Of course you will be worried, but that's what lawyers are for
6. I've never dealt with MDMA, but I'm sure vacuum bagging and good concealment wouldn't go a miss. There are many encrypted sms services available for smartphones.

Finally remove/conceal everything drug related in your home. Any cash you have lying around take to one of your pals to hold on to for a while.

Hi,

Thanks for the input!

To quote you and the poster/s above, I bought the SIM a while back from a large well know supermarket chain and as far as I can remember I paid cash for it (however this said supermarket would have had CCTV) however, as I say it was probably 3-4 months ago.

Thx

Yeah I wouldn't worry too much about the sim and phone. Main thing is to secure your home/stashes and try to lay as low as possible.

Wish you all the best!

Dank
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: Oompaloompa on November 15, 2012, 04:04 pm
Note the numbers of your contacts on your compromised phone
Destroy compromised phone, smashing/burning/etc simcard & phone
Call your customers & let them know your new number
Destroy your note of phone numbers
Remove all drugs/scales/baggies/etc from your home or locations/vehicles linked to you.
Thoroghly clean area where said drugs were kept/prepared.
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: britishone99 on November 15, 2012, 04:12 pm
Hi,

Seems wise, however I have a very old beat up Nokia that doesn't store call logs/texts older than a few weeks (and I don't ever save numbers or texts, ever) as I have to clear it often so even though that sounds like the best option it may be impossible unless I want to alienate a lot of my customer base :P

Would it really pose a problem holding onto the phone/SIM for the next few months while I do gradual transfer (i.e. are the police able to track your location and use with just a pay as you go anonymous number?) I wouldn't text out/call outbound ever. Only receive unanswered/dead texts as mentioned before (and then call them back on new untraceable number soon after) the idea is to basically migrate slowly and then dispose of the phone when I decide it's no longer of valuable use.

Also I forgot to mention, said incident was probably ~3 weeks ago. I've had nothing until I was informed this had all happened very recently!

Thx :)
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: KazushiS58 on November 15, 2012, 04:28 pm
That number is linked to many of my customers (my financial lifeline) so I cannot simply "get rid" of the number as it's probably my most valuable tool, however replacing the phone with a new one is no problem. To combat this, would it be wise to buy a new number/SIM and when I receive calls/texts on the "compromised" phone I then ignore those calls/texts and call back on my new number asking them to save the new one etc if you catch where i'm coming from (i.e. as a slow process, switching all customer to the new number)?

Thx :)

Well its not ideal but you may have to do that. As you say pulling a list of numbers from a message or call log is not possible so you need to wait for them to contact you.
One other option is to give the phone to someone you trust and ask them to just text your new phone with any numbers that come in on the old phone (preferably with their own pay and go or 'safe' phone). That may seem like over complicating it or being excessively paranoid but  the main issue is to distance yourself from the phone so if its someone smart enough not to do something silly with it this could be a safer way of doing what you outlined above.
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: AbraCadaver on November 15, 2012, 11:46 pm
Would it really pose a problem holding onto the phone/SIM for the next few months while I do gradual transfer (i.e. are the police able to track your location and use with just a pay as you go anonymous number?) I wouldn't text out/call outbound ever. Only receive unanswered/dead texts as mentioned before (and then call them back on new untraceable number soon after) the idea is to basically migrate slowly and then dispose of the phone when I decide it's no longer of valuable use.

It is indeed possible to track cellphone location with some accuracy, and it doesn't require you to send an SMS, make a call or switch GPS on to trace the location; all cellphones have their locations visible to the service provider at all times. Otherwise, how would the cell company know where to try and direct your incoming calls and SMS messages to? It would be a bit of a waste of time to try every cell tower in the country at random until they found your phone!

Also, (minor point) the ultra careful/paranoid don't even use their own cash to buy phones, SIMs or credit top-ups. Most banknotes have a serial number on them, and although it's not an absolute guide to what an individual purchases, a broad pattern can be established by looking at the entire history of where the bills you withdraw from an ATM end up getting banked.

This whole situation depends entirely on how much they want to catch you, which again depends on the politics of the situation, believe it or not. So, depending on "who" your supplier is, it may not make a lot of sense for them to bust you. Your supplier, or theirs, may be well connected, and if they're the kind of big fish that can cause problems for the senior police commanders in your local force, nothing will happen. True story. They might just be really overstretched on their resources, and aren't confident they have enough evidence that will stick to you, so don't make any assumptions about why it hasn't happened until you happen upon some conclusive proof (and don't search for proof, at least not overtly)
Title: Re: UK Legal Advice
Post by: Nightcrawler on November 16, 2012, 12:49 am
Hi,

Seems wise, however I have a very old beat up Nokia that doesn't store call
logs/texts older than a few weeks (and I don't ever save numbers or texts,
ever) as I have to clear it often so even though that sounds like the best
option it may be impossible unless I want to alienate a lot of my customer
base :P

What your phone stores (or not) is not what you should be worrying about. Rather, what you should be worrying about is what the carrier stores, as required by law.

See: http://www.ashurst.com/publication-item.aspx?id_Content=4167

Quote
Forthcoming changes to data retention regime set to increase ISP costs but government may foot bill (Communications newsletter, January 2009)

Internet service providers have expressed concerns over the proposed implementation of the remaining part of the Directive on data retention (2006/24/EC), relating to internet data.

The EU data retention regime

Under the 2004 EC Declaration on Combating Terrorism, member states are required to ensure that public communications providers retain "communications data" for a period of at least six months to at most two years, and the Data Retention Directive was adopted by the EU on 15 March 2006 to formalise this requirement.

Specifically, the term "communications data" embraces the "who", "when" and "where" of a communication but not the content, nor what was said or written. It includes the manner in which, and the method by which, a person or machine communicates with another person or machine. This data must be made available to competent national authorities for the purpose of "investigation, detection and prosecution of serious crime". The parameters of such crimes are defined by each Member State in its national laws.

The Directive covers the retention of data relating
to:

    fixed telephony;
    mobile telephony;
    internet access;
    internet email; and
    internet telephony.

Member States were required to transpose it into national law no later than September 2007 in respect of fixed and mobile telephony. However, many Member States, including the UK, took advantage of the right to postpone the application of the Directive to internet access, internet email and internet telephony for a further 18 months after this date to 15 March 2009.

The UK approach to implementation

The retention of communications data in the UK has been recognised as a valuable and important measure for a number of years. Systematic data retention has been UK policy since 2001 under part 11 of the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 and has been in practice since 2003, following publication of the code of practice on voluntary retention of communications data.

The Data Retention (EC Directive) Regulations 2007 (SI 2007/2199) implemented the Directive in relation to fixed and mobile telephony data with effect from
1 October 2007. The 2007 Regulations require telecommunication companies to store communications data for fixed and mobile telephones for 12 months. The proposed new Regulations which will extend the current scope to internet data, proposes the same timeframe for retention.

The retention of communications data relating to the internet is a complex issue involving much larger volumes of data and a considerably broader set of stakeholders. The hardware and software required to store the data is extremely costly. Moreover, it has been argued that the retention period is excessive and disproportionate, undermining an individual's right to privacy under Article 8 of the ECHR.

The new Regulations, which are due to replace the 2007 Regulations, are expected to come into force before March 2009 in line with the 18-month extension period referred to above. The Home Office is currently consulting on a draft of these new Regulations; the submission deadline for comments to the Home Office ended on 31 October 2008, but the results are yet to be published. Views were invited on the ability of internet service providers (ISPs) to apply the new regulations and in particular whether the new regulations provide a framework suitable for the internet aspects of the Directive.


Would it really pose a problem holding onto the phone/SIM for the next few months while I do gradual transfer (i.e. are the police able to track your location and use with just a pay as you go anonymous number?) I wouldn't text out/call outbound ever. Only receive unanswered/dead texts as mentioned before (and then call them back on new untraceable number soon after) the idea is to basically migrate slowly and then dispose of the phone when I decide it's no longer of valuable use.

Also I forgot to mention, said incident was probably ~3 weeks ago. I've had nothing until I was informed this had all happened very recently!

Thx :)

Don't forget most phones these days have built-in GPS transceivers, so the owner of the phone can be tracked down to within a few metres. I don't know about the UK, but location information is routinely stored and retrievable upon demand by American police.

Nightcrawler