Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: nawlinsx on August 02, 2012, 07:36 am
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We've been sellers here for about a month. Our experience with PGP in the past has been annoying, so we weren't terribly enthusiastic about using it here. We implemented it, however, and fucked something up - then we fixed it (maybe) but two people sent us their message incorrectly. We yanked it and we put on our user page that we would be implementing it soon... Sometime in the last week we decided to change our user page to say that we won't be using PGP in the foreseeable future. Since then we've received a number of messages from buyers saying "Why?" and "I never send my shipping details without PGP..."
Here's our response. Any and all feedback/advice are welcome!
We don't use PGP for several reasons:
1. It has proven to be a pain in the ass in the past, both with operator problems on our end and with people sending things incorrectly.
2. The SR system and/or privnote.com seem fine for the task for us.
3. The extra protection you think you're getting from "adversaries" because you're using PGP is illusory. If some law enforcement agency decides to sting SR buyers, they will open a seller's account - with full PGP - and harvest victims. Furthermore, once you successfully transmit a message to a legitimate seller using PGP, you have no idea how carefully they handle it (or not) upon receipt. I know of one popular seller on SR who receives addresses via PGP, then emails them with the corresponding order in CLEARTEXT through GMAIL to the people he has doing his fulfillment for him at another location.
If we're missing something fundamental here, please fill us in. We're not trying to be dicks.
We take address handling quite seriously. We do not record the addresses anywhere. They are retrieved from SR at the moment we are ready to print the label. Once the label is printed, we confirm and close the label printing software without saving any data.
Why do some people not like privnote? We think it is quite clever!
Here's an idea...
Privnote's utility could be strengthened by a simple convention between Buyers and Sellers on SR.
Buyers could split their shipping information into three separate privnote messages as follows:
1. First Name, House #, Zip & Town
2. Last Name, State
3. Street Name
Example:
privnote 1: Felipe, 2356, 92328/Death Valley
privnote 2: Wang, California
privnote 3. Main Street
An "adversary" would have to intercept all three messages in order to recreate the buyer's correct address.
Now - would receiving, opening and collating three privnotes be a bigger pain in the ass for us than receiving a PGP-encrypted address?
Only "The Shadow" knows.
Thoughts?
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have to agree with Guru there - you aren't going to make many sales without PGP. you will still make some from the more reckless buyers, but a lot of people, definitely people who have sway in the forums, will NOT buy from you
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Who is sending clear text addresses across GMAIL ? This needs to be stopped!
And what the fuck? Is typing a password in and then hitting a button really that difficult?
SR should be treated as if its run by the DEA, assume it is, do not trust SR to mix or delete any messages.
Just because bad vendors don't cleanup their addresses does not mean you need to become one, what the fuck kind of reverse logic is this?
Without the grease monkey script I posted back awhile ago PrivNote has a rather gaping hole, and even with it PGP is far more secure.
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Whenever a seller comes up with some poor rationalizing about why he doesn't use GPG my first thought is that they are lazy fucks.
The forums are FULL of people who help others with GPG. If complete computer newbies learned, you can too. If not, don't sell drugs.
Selling three messages to Privnote means nothing. Privnote.com still has all the messages. How do you know that they don't store them ? Or that they won't cooperate with the LE ?
Same for SR.
Read this.
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=24799.msg370503#msg370503
And for God's sake please stop using "we". You're not Siamese twins.
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=25501.msg274396
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My first draft of the above included a confession that I am, indeed, lazy. I replaced it with the confession that we fucked something up!
I am a newbie and since SR is so straightforward, I haven't felt compelled to participate in the forums beyond setting up a review thread.
Having read the responses above and followed the links provided and poked around the forums a bit this morning, it's clear that eschewing PGP is a big mistake. I will correct it.
Thank you for setting me straight!
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We've been sellers here for about a month. Our experience with PGP in the past has been annoying, so we weren't terribly enthusiastic about using it here. We implemented it, however, and fucked something up - then we fixed it (maybe) but two people sent us their message incorrectly. We yanked it and we put on our user page that we would be implementing it soon...
A shame your initial experiences weren't good, but we can fix that. Well, we can't chage the past, but we can help you for the future.
Sometime in the last week we decided to change our user page to say that we won't be using PGP in the foreseeable future. Since then we've received a number of messages from buyers saying "Why?" and "I never send my shipping details without PGP..."
Good. That means the message is spreading.
Here's our response. Any and all feedback/advice are welcome!
We don't use PGP for several reasons:
1. It has proven to be a pain in the ass in the past, both with operator problems on our end and with people sending things incorrectly.
That can be fixed with education.
2. The SR system and/or privnote.com seem fine for the task for us.
Privnote is a terrible idea (just search the forum for the other Privnote threads). Using the SR system on its own is better than using Privnote, but it is still open to compromise and OpenPGP messages will protect against this.
3. The extra protection you think you're getting from "adversaries" because you're using PGP is illusory. If some law enforcement agency decides to sting SR buyers, they will open a seller's account - with full PGP - and harvest victims.
As Guru said, that's always a risk. If a vendor is law enforcement then no amount of cryptography will defend you against them harvesting your address.
Furthermore, once you successfully transmit a message to a legitimate seller using PGP, you have no idea how carefully they handle it (or not) upon receipt.
That's also a known risk. If a vendor is unable to enact secure communications procedures, it isn't too likely that they will be able to correctly handle and destroy any data they receive.
I know of one popular seller on SR who receives addresses via PGP, then emails them with the corresponding order in CLEARTEXT through GMAIL to the people he has doing his fulfillment for him at another location.
Have you reported this to SR's staff?
If we're missing something fundamental here, please fill us in. We're not trying to be dicks.
We take address handling quite seriously. We do not record the addresses anywhere. They are retrieved from SR at the moment we are ready to print the label. Once the label is printed, we confirm and close the label printing software without saving any data.
Not bad.
Why do some people not like privnote? We think it is quite clever!
It isn't. Seriously, go and search the forum for previous Privnote discussion.
Now - would receiving, opening and collating three privnotes be a bigger pain in the ass for us than receiving a PGP-encrypted address?
Yes, especially with the vulnerabilities it leaves you open to.
If you're willing to learn, there are people here, who can help you get PGP or GPG running.
Which operating system are you using and which version(s) of PGP or GPG have you tried to run? What are the problems you encountered?
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Thanks everyone for the encouragement.
I'll be back later with more complete answers to your questions.
As for the vendor I mentioned who has been forwarding orders in cleartext via GMail, I showed him this thread and he understands now why that is unacceptable. I pointed him to some resources and offered assistance with PGP running under Windows.. It is GPG on MacOS that has ME stumped this time around... The suite of applications it includes appears to support encrypting/decrypting of in/outbound emails... I don't understand what to do with the messages that come through SR? Where do I put them?
Again, thanks.
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If you don't like PGP, use GPG...
You can store your favorite (best) buyers public keys, reuse them whenever is needed, after the first 4 or 5 tries, you'll get used to it and it's lightening fast to do it...
keep your costumers safe.
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I'll reinstall the GPG bundle on my Mac sometime in the next 24 hours and attempt to articulate clearly where I hit a wall in the process.
You guys "schooled" me today with this - seriously. I'm glad I posted.
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Thanks everyone for the encouragement.
I'll be back later with more complete answers to your questions.
As for the vendor I mentioned who has been forwarding orders in cleartext via GMail, I showed him this thread and he understands now why that is unacceptable. I pointed him to some resources and offered assistance with PGP running under Windows..
Excellent.
It is GPG on MacOS that has ME stumped this time around... The suite of applications it includes appears to support encrypting/decrypting of in/outbound emails... I don't understand what to do with the messages that come through SR? Where do I put them?
Again, thanks.
If you're using Snow Leopard or Lion then you should have GPG Services installed with GPGTools which enables you to use GPG functions with standard Mac applications (e.g. Finder, Safari, TextEdit, etc.). Some details are available on the GPG Services page:
https://www.gpgtools.org/gpgservices/index.html
If you are on Leopard then unfortunately you don't have this option. If you are on Leopard then you might want to add another GUI frontend to obtain other functions. The main list of frontends for all operating systems is here:
http://www.gnupg.org/related_software/frontends.en.html
There may be other options depending on what software you have and which version of OS X you're using.
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nawlinsx, look into automatic encryption through an email system using nymservers. Any buyer who doesn't even use that once you serve it to him on a platter isn't worth bothering with.
BB
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I'm a lot lazier than I am dumb. :)
I don't think my head is going to explode - from this stuff, at least!
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I'm a lot lazier than I am dumb. :)
I don't think my head is going to explode - from this stuff, at least!
Sadly, there is no practical difference. But good news! You can join PGP Club for free! *pine gives you ticket*
Here is your ticket! It is 1 x free tutorial on how to encrypt and decrypt with PGP!
See the sig, follow Guru's instructions for Mac, or ask me for a tutorial on windows/linux.
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I won't be ordering from this vendor anytime soon.
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[nawlins' former public key removed]
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32)
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I'm ready to try...
Somebody please send me something here to decrypt.
Thank you.
Welcome to the PGP way, truth and the light! :)
Here is a encrypted message to you.
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=96wV
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Another one for you, just in case you want a little more practice.
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=Tw20
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glad to see your changing your mind nawlins :)
good work with the PGP club pine!
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I'm ready to try...
Somebody please send me something here to decrypt.
Thank you.
Sure.
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=uWGx
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----
-
Thanks, everyone - especially Guru.
The Hushmail address is indeed fake and no, I am not a hushmail user. (I am aware of them being compelled to respond to subpoenas at some point in the past two years or so).
I had everything working and then arrogantly moved some things around and of course set something off course - the decrypting is no longer working.
I will regroup and keep my act together before I ask for any resends. (I will also create a new public key with a more diabolical fake email address).
Thanks again.
-
Hello Again:
Thanks again, everyone - especially Guru.
Here's my new Public Key:
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
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=nugH
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Would anyone care to post something for me to decrypt?
Thank you very much.
-
Hello Again
Would anyone care to post something for me to decrypt?
Thank you very much.
-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
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=PrO+
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----