Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: MySecretAccount on August 01, 2012, 07:55 am
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I originally wrote this post in response to a thread bitching about prices of c certain items, and it ended up being my master thesis on SR as a whole and honestly quite well worded. It's long, but I think that reading it might put the site in to context for those who seem frustrated with a site that has opened Pandora's Box and is nothing we should feel ENTITLED to. When you take out the raw functionality of the site and look at all of the moving pieces, it has to be apparent that there is so much more here going on than you really think about.
I normally don't put up walls of text, but - I feel like so many people have the wrong outlook when it comes to this site I had to put down my thoughts. To start off, there are 3 things that I think should be obvious but fly over the heads of lots of people:
1. Illegal items have massively varying worth from region to region (MDMA from NL to US, or Adderal from US to UK). This is one of the oldest truths in business, and especially black markets - the farther something illegally made has to travel, the more expensive it's going to be. This is why cocaine (when I did it 6, 7 years ago) was $500 an ounce in the border states but 100 quid a gram in the UK - coke in Europe has come a long way.
2. Given that these things are illegal and often not common in many regions of the world (I live in a major metro area in the US and I have not seen a press or MDMA that has shown even a hint of MDMA per Marquis testing for almost 3-4+ years in my city, and it's one of the biggest metro areas in the country. I hear about people who took E, but....it's not E. When (if) they finally try 100mg or so of something from the NL or a press from EU (Defqons), it blows their fucking mind and its value skyrockets. In a nutshell - we now have access to better quality anything and everything, at any time.
3. People are always willing to take risk to make money on illegal goods, with the most money being in the rarest items smuggled the longest distance (with few exceptions). The type of people who have this mentality, centered around profit, are often also prone to being selfish, arrogant, and want to argue. To be blunt - we're all not "the average Joes" of the world......we're people who somehow stumbled on to an encrypted private international black market with its own currency, laws, and worldwide reach.
These three themes have given me the following overall opinion/mindset about SR:
Silk Road in itself is a fascinating social experiment if you throw out its functionality as a black market. While the "message" or "goal" of the site is probably never going to EXACTLY be explained by the makers, it's clear that they wanted to open a Pandora's Box and start something that couldn't ever totally be stopped. While I'm not invited to any of them, I assume by now that there are at least several others site like this, each with the same function (drugs in the mail), but with different mindsets. The only one I know of is Black Market Reloaded, which is flaunting its illegality in its name. Naming your drug dealing site something that implies it's a site selling drugs isn't too bright IMHO. I'm sure there are plenty of others, all with their own message and "style/attitude." That's great, but it's not Silk Road. Silk Road is the neutral Pandora's Box of the future - now this it exists, it (or it's idea and function) will never go away.
TL;DR starts here:
My point is this - we're on a massive, semi-anonymous website acting as an international black market for goods and services illegal in nearly every corner of the world. The demographic here is going to be no different than your demographic of any large grouping of people, maybe even black-market specific people. Think of the items for sale here and the "IRL" people who normally would have, do have, or could get the drugs and items for sale here. You likely wouldn't like most of them.
Throwing SR's absurdly high quality products aside and reliability aside - I don't think any of us have the luxury of dealing with people half as intelligent, communicative, or interesting as we do here off the Road. SR opens the door to all types on purpose, including bad ones, because everything here builds on the ability to balance the market and improve every aspect of the idea and site.
Like every business scene:
You'll have your "in it for the cause" types who sell amazingly high quality goods at cost or just over types.
You'll have your "squeeze ever dollar out of these fucking customers as I can" types.
You'll have your "just a regular guy/girl who is just dabbling with buying some things or selling my prescription I don't take" types - these are the passive, profit-minded (but not greedy) types who aren't "drug dealers."
You'll have your scam artists, cons, long cons, and selective scammers. Their bullshit promotes communication amongst the legitimate members of SR.
And of course, you'll have your "total professional, highly reliable, slightly pricey but quality-centric steady-eddies." I could name examples, but I'm sure you know who some of them are.
If we didn't have all of these types, I would find SR to be a failure in its goal. DPR - feel free to correct me. While the steady-eddie vendors of the Road are the best types for the average buyer (in my opinion), I find it sad to see so much goddamn fighting about shit on the forums of a black market drug dealing website with intelligence levels that SHOULD be higher than the average "scene." Everything that happens here, good and bad, brings balance and stability to the marketplace. It has its swings, it's "big cons" like Tony76, but - because of them, better vendors emerge, and more and more people get involved in securing this site, its users, and working to continue what's started here forever. Having too much trust in a place like this was the downfall of the The Farmer's Market, as they weren't they neutral bystander letting everything go down on its own. They had a share the love type message (which isn't bad in itself), but their belief in their non-neutral mindset caused them to make decisions that eventually put them in jail.
Maybe you all disagree, but SR was designed to welcome all types, and as a community we have to accept that by having that inherent design, we bring with it all of its pros and cons. DPR and SR are genius in that they're not TRYING to "spread the love" or do anything beyond be the functional eBay of the black market that in can't exist anywhere else.
By letting us police ourselves, we actually end up with a better community, better communication (even about the bad things and people), and most active and involved users working on their own time to make things safer, better, and more reliable. If all we had was perfect vendors who had perfect packaging, perfect products, and perfect communication, the forums would be just full of garbage posts where people talk about how fucking high they are and yeahhhhhhhhhhhh man SR rules!
We need the bad to create the good, and we need the balance created by our completely open scene to constantly keep things at their best. Lots of people don't see it this way, but in the end having overpriced vendors is good, as it leads to undercuts and an efficient, evolving marketplace that caters to its supply and demand. Those who have private needs or separate attitudes quite likely have their own sites or small groups off SR, and that's fine - in fact, that's ideal. Without a central message, SR is the perfectly designed home-base for an all out marketplace with no focus on any one vertical.
That's my rant, but - if you're smart enough to be here, do what you need to do, and walk away unharmed - what problem do you have with outliers who have no relation to your specific needs? Handle yourself like an adult, be smart (because you have to be halfway smart to be here), and enjoy the amazing creation that's been bestowed upon us.
Goddamnit that post was longer than I intended, but - stream of consciousness - I just boiled over seeing threads bitching about such petty things that I realized I wanted to post a thread not bitching, but praising and summarizing why we have absolute no right to bitch about anything here.
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Can I has some of what you're taking?
Seems good stuff.
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Sorry man but that is just way too long. Don't get discouraged just forget about 'tl;dr's, and get together a nice little digestible summary paragraph. You started me off on the wrong foot as I don't like threads where my kind are not welcome.
ilk Road in itself is a fascinating social experiment if you throw out its functionality as a black market. While the "message" or "goal" of the site is probably never going to EXACTLY be explained by the makers, it's clear that they wanted to open a Pandora's Box and start something that couldn't ever totally be stopped. While I'm not invited to any of them, I assume by now that there are at least several others site like this, each with the same function (drugs in the mail), but with different mindsets. The only one I know of is Black Market Reloaded, which is flaunting its illegality in its name. Naming your drug dealing site something that implies it's a site selling drugs isn't too bright IMHO. I'm sure there are plenty of others, all with their own message and "style/attitude." That's great, but it's not Silk Road. Silk Road is the neutral Pandora's Box of the future - now this it exists, it (or it's idea and function) will never go away.
I don't know man. I agree to an extent but I suspect anonymous commerce is going to grow and evolve in ways very difficult to predict and certainly much more profound than just various SR clones. Personally I see the start of something that's going to determine whether my grandchildren will truly own their own identities, or have chips in their head.
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I agree with the critique of my thoughts on SR - and I also agree that the publicity of THIS site (very IOP stuff or the other things earlier on) is different, as DB was much more obscure and the internet much less accessible than it is now, and SR is the first MAJOR site to allow the world black market to exist without restrictions and still function.
I also agree that more scammers are coming, as would be expected of a site like this growing in popularity. I hate them, and agree that with certain areas it's becoming harder and harder to control.
Then again - in 2002 there were MAYBE a half-dozen research chems of any interest that people could "swap" for something with a street name and function. With growth and progress also comes the introduction of new negative variables.
I used to know Erowid.org back and forth, and these days I don't even know what half of the RC families of chemicals do, let alone what could be "passed off" as something else. There are just too many, and like it or not, this is the future. The days of somebody buying 2ct7 and passing it off as LSD (as rare as that was) are gone.
Everything has really come down to how intelligent you are, and how diligent you are in doing your homework in every way. Again - if and when SR hits the point of no return, lost in a sea of ambiguity so large that people with "in it for the cause" mentalities break off and form their own communities, the mission continues and it goes on.
SR will reach a breaking point, but it's also been the site responsible for opening up the world of self-choice (and self-imposed risk) to the everyday person.
Anyway - I'm just saying I'm glad it exists, got as big as it did, and has created a snowball effect that very likely can't be stopped. The niche sites (I'm sure) are out there, and people truly in it for the cause have their keychain/contacts and will go on to create whatever they need. Scamming being more common is the unfortunate sacrifice DPR (or whoever) has to and had to allow to let the site accomplish its end goal.
As far as the admin's cut - I'd say they're more than entitled to it, as they took on the world and kickstarted all of this, and just like all of us, what "type of mentality" they have is irrelevant. The site has a purpose, will run until it can't, and by then everyone who belongs in a specific place will be exactly where they should be.
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There are scammers in ever facet of society, especially in the online markets. That's just the way it is and we just have to live with it and use our common sense and hope all go's well.
Silk Road is a very special place and we should be proud to be a part of it. This is only the beginning of Anonymous trading and all each of us can do is our part to keep the integrity of such a thing going... It's a beautiful thing, cherish it.
Off topic: I watched this documentary last night called The Union, I highly recommend it, it's probably the best marijuana DOC I've ever seen, and trust me, I've seen a lot. Check it out!
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I originally wrote this post in response to ............ seeing threads bitching about such petty things that I realized I wanted to post a thread not bitching, but praising and summarizing why we have absolute no right to bitch about anything here.
Thank you for that wonderful read. I think somebody has been doing some reading on Hegel's dialectical progression ;). Respect....and well some karma to you sir.
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I agree with the critique of my thoughts on SR - and I also agree that the publicity of THIS site (very IOP stuff or the other things earlier on) is different, as DB was much more obscure and the internet much less accessible than it is now, and SR is the first MAJOR site to allow the world black market to exist without restrictions and still function.
I also agree that more scammers are coming, as would be expected of a site like this growing in popularity. I hate them, and agree that with certain areas it's becoming harder and harder to control.
The difference between DB and SR is that DB was a community that traded sources 'for the good cause' and SR makes a profit on connecting buyers with sellers. DB was just the better or more consumer-friendly concept imho. By no means perfect, but better for the buyer than SR.
You had to at least lurk the forums to get to your sources. So if there was a scam users would notice pretty quickly. This mechanism doesn't exist or is completely broken here. For the most part it works like this: "1/5 you sent me shit" - if you change to 5/5 you get 50% refund - "5/5 best vendor ever". Even I am doing that at times because I just can't afford to get burnt that often. I keep my Integrity by staying completely honest on the forums.
To put this into context: In the last 2-3 months I have been ripped off more often than in all my years that I used DB to get to my sources. I posted this yesterday, funny fact: I used to give out my real name and home address to IOPs, knowing those were professionals, here I wouldn't trust any vendor with my personal details.
With DB the community solved the scam-problem. Here the community can't. So it got out of hand. Those who could do something don't care. The crux is that even scammers create profit for SR. So no intent to stop it. Doomed to fail, eventually.
Those good-guy-vendors are here, without a doubt. Those few guys is what keeps me here after all. What's this place worth if you have to make 10 orders to receive a legit one?
Scams are part of the game, yes. Everyone should be aware of this. I never expected otherwise. The amount of scams/rip-offs going on here is ridiculous though and in no healthy proportion anymore. And for the community there is no method to fix it. One of the few things a member can do is point out or troll the shitty vendors and make people aware how shady they are. But you will get shit from the very users you are trying to protect. Who can keep this up long-term?
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How the hell do you guys get scammed so often? I have made over 40 purchases on SR and have never been scammed once. Do you really just FE to new vendors that often?
It's simple... don't FE unless it's an established vendor. Other than that I don't really know how you can get scammed.
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I've been underwhelmed a few times, but I've never gotten completely ripped off. Just buy from established vendors. Simple as that.
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Like every business scene:
You'll have your "in it for the cause" types who sell amazingly high quality goods at cost or just over types.
You'll have your "squeeze ever dollar out of these fucking customers as I can" types.
You'll have your "just a regular guy/girl who is just dabbling with buying some things or selling my prescription I don't take" types - these are the passive, profit-minded (but not greedy) types who aren't "drug dealers."
You'll have your scam artists, cons, long cons, and selective scammers. Their bullshit promotes communication amongst the legitimate members of SR.
And of course, you'll have your "total professional, highly reliable, slightly pricey but quality-centric steady-eddies." I could name examples, but I'm sure you know who some of them are.
I'd say there is a much more diversified demographic. I'd never buy illegal substances IRL. Where I am in life doesn't lend itself to hanging with this kind of crowd, IRL. Here, I'm completely comfortable. And my motivations are perhaps somewhat unique as well. As an official yuppie, I am sure that nobody - including those living in my house, have any idea. For obvious reasons, I don't want to go into any detail, but the point here is I am sure we have people from every walk of life here. It would be difficult to categorize honestly.
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How the hell do you guys get scammed so often? I have made over 40 purchases on SR and have never been scammed once. Do you really just FE to new vendors that often?
Speed and LSD Market. Example? Read link in my sig.
I never FE for serious orders, meaning non-test orders >3-4BTC. But you have to go through approx. 10 test-orders to find 1 valid vendor. Sad but true.
edit: So all of these 40 orders of yours were as described? You tested all 40 orders at time of arrival and then finalized?
I guess we need to define scam here. when would you consider being scammed? if you get promised high quality 70% speed and you receive 1% speed, it's technically still speed. But I still consider this a scam. Or a rip-off. Whatever you like to call it.
I have not quite 30 orders completed on the Road and haven't been ripped off yet either.
It seems to me that there are a lot more scammers in the "Chem" area than the "Weed" area.
Out of my 30, or so, transactions I had about 4-5 "experimental" transactions. All was good quality. One was poor packaging. I have found my 3 or 4 vendors that I trust and deal with. I pay a little more for my product but, the product is top quality and I don't have to go out on the streets and "hunt anything" down. I have to sit at home and it just sorta' comes to me.
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By letting us police ourselves, we actually end up with a better community, better communication (even about the bad things and people), and most active and involved users working on their own time to make things safer, better, and more reliable. If all we had was perfect vendors who had perfect packaging, perfect products, and perfect communication, the forums would be just full of garbage posts where people talk about how fucking high they are and yeahhhhhhhhhhhh man SR rules!
We need the bad to create the good, and we need the balance created by our completely open scene to constantly keep things at their best. Lots of people don't see it this way, but in the end having overpriced vendors is good, as it leads to undercuts and an efficient, evolving marketplace that caters to its supply and demand. Those who have private needs or separate attitudes quite likely have their own sites or small groups off SR, and that's fine - in fact, that's ideal. Without a central message, SR is the perfectly designed home-base for an all out marketplace with no focus on any one vertical.
A very well considered and interesting read, thanks.
Also, +1 karma! :)
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I loved every god damn word OP just spat out.
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It seems to me that there are a lot more scammers in the "Chem" area than the "Weed" area.
Out of my 30, or so, transactions I had about 4-5 "experimental" transactions. All was good quality. One was poor packaging. I have found my 3 or 4 vendors that I trust and deal with. I pay a little more for my product but, the product is top quality and I don't have to go out on the streets and "hunt anything" down. I have to sit at home and it just sorta' comes to me.
Yes, chem is a much better target. It's hard to cut weed with a research chemical. Or even an xtc pill (every single one I received was good so far).
But open powders like mdma, amphetamines, meth, coke, research chemicals (vendors don't even bother to write the contents on the ziplock. if they sell 50 of these how should I ever know I got what I ordered?) and even LSD are very good targets for scammers. And they flourish here.
I totally agree on finding the best vendors and becoming a regular customer. But it's not about that as I mentioned earlier, it's the unusually high amount of (selective) scammers. And I find it even more annoying that people (Hello Holly!) defend that practice because they themselves were never ripped off. Yes, that's how selective scamming works. But this attitude ruins the whole purpose of the community.
Also staff just doesn't give a shit - it's all about the money here. I guess I am just disappointed by this place and it's community. It's nice, yes. But it would have so much more potential to be totally awesome, if it were not for those greedy bastards and the guys who only care about themselves (why bother joining a community at all? go troll on 4chan).
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I loved every god damn word OP just spat out.
Thanks you ...it's actually somewhat cool to have long-timers have similar opinions to me. SR is a complex complex experiment in itself, with the actual product being no more important that what the site is doing.
I just wish there was less nitpicking, but also less scammers. However, to have the real marketplace, you have to have both, and the users and buyers only make things better over time, as the good people here for the right reasons eventually balance out the negatives.
I'm very curious to see where it ends up.
Cheers everyone - enojoy it, however long it lasts in THIS form.
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I agree that there's a more diversified demographic. I too, am in a place in my life that is not open to the possibility of buying drugs IRL or to hang out with people who do. I think there are more like me but keep a low profile. No one in my life knows what I do here, and there would be no way for me to continue if SR were to shut down and I didn't find another source.
About the scammers etc, it's really no different here than on other commercial sites like ebay. You have to choose wisely, and the old, much used adage of 'if it's too good to be true, it probably is' very much applies.
This to me is by far the most personally beneficial aspect of the site (if we're getting in to the function and products). I'm older and a working professional (well, not super old, but too old to be asking people I know if they've got molly/lsd/whatever). No matter what you're in to, this site makes the social engineering and/or embarassment/stigma of asking around for whatever drug you're in to non-existent.
I would never ask people I know (even stoners or burnouts I grew up with) if they could get me whatever, because it's detrimental to my image and I don't include other people in my private business and personal consumption. It's not their business and by going through here, it stays that way.
I honestly am very on the fence about allowing the sale of hard drugs like heroin/meth/coke to be sold (and am glad the armory is closing - that's just asking for federal problems). However, I understand the mindset of "to each his own" and "it's all fair game, or it's all off limits."
As I might have noted already, if I'm looking at a vendor, I check to make sure they don't also sell some sort of hard drug - that's indicative of supporting a habit, and means they're more likely to be sloppy or less careful then the professional vendors who charge that small tax for solid packaging, guaranteed delivery, and complete reliability.
It's similar to the sellers - for better or worse, we have the following buyer types:
1. Stupid teenagers/college kids who want to get fucked up on CRAZY DRUGS (this is bad, as they aren't responsible enough to handle what's available here)
2. Working middle/upper class professionals like myself who want to be able to get what I want without having to put my name out IRL and in public as "somebody looking for whatever," as being labeled a druggie, regardless of what I'm looking for, is just not reasonable at this point in my life.
3. People who buy to resell, and make a business out of this. They're typically the ones willing to take the risk of ordering some crazy amount from the NL to US and will (if it comes and they don't get busted) mark it up and either support their habit by getting their money back, or who realize that a large portion of buyers are willing to pay 20% for security of domestic shipment.
4. Curious people who are "experimenting" with things that they maybe don't have access to, do to location or social circle. In my opinion, SR is ideal for these types, as half a brain you can find the reliable vendor who has what they're looking for and is able to carefully ensure their dose/experience is proper.
I expect that SR will break in to sub-sections soon, as it seems that scamming is becoming more common, and with scamming comes private groups with niche interests (hallucinogens, RX, etc). It's unfortunate that so many vendors require FE, but at the same time, as long as SR exists, everyone should be able to do their homework and pick the right vendor.
As much as I love what I by from SR - I love that I can go to SR to buy it just as much. The products are higher quality, equal or lower price to local prices, and involve nobody but yourself.
I'm curious to see if a trend emerges over the next 6 months or so where lots of SR products flood markets, causing some level of chaos with LE, wondering how all of these HTGs just appeared out of nowhere, in increasing amounts
But - thanks for all the kind words. The active community keeps things going at the rate they should be. SR isn't erowid, isn't Ebay, and isn't AliBaba (but with drugs) - it's an opportunity for lots of people (myself included) to receive fantastic end products without involving anyone but themselves, which is how any respectable buyer of "fun" drugs wants it to be.
The stigma of just putting an IRL feeler out when you're past the age of "getting fucked up" is just something I'd prefer to opt out of, and SR gives me that opportunity. You're all on the right track.
The floodgates are open, and I'm hoping DPR and the gang are proud of what they've started, as if it's not SR, it's other sites with specific fans of whatever product, and god forbid SR goes down, we've moved in to the next level.
So - tip of the cap to the admins/founders, and I hope that SR stays around for a while, or if there are specialized sites that are based around one or two products.
Cheers gents - glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way.