Silk Road forums

Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: tootiefruitie on July 08, 2012, 04:07 pm

Title: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: tootiefruitie on July 08, 2012, 04:07 pm
first, i know i've read this before, but i've never seen a thread dedicated to it.  so, sorry if this is "beating a dead horse" for some people.


in review threads and a even elsewhere lately, a very large number of people have been posting things like "just received X specific package in Y specific region, it took exactly Z amount of time"  or even worse, "my order for X was marked in transit today.  it's being shipped to Y, when do you think it will be here?"

when you post things like this, especially the second example, it helps LEO, postal inspectors, customs, whatever.  they already know the country of origin usually, and now you have provided them with a relatively small time frame and area of delivery to look for.  this severely degrades one of the things that keep our packages most safe:  the ability to blend in. 

my main concern (since i don't really care if morons like this received their package or not) is that if you cause a vendor's package to get intecepted, anyone else who orders between that time until the vendor changes shipping/packaging methods is likely to not receive either.

so please please please be a little less vague, ESPECIALLY about orders you have recently made, or that have recently been sent.  it's not a secret that LE wants to hurt SR any way they can, so let's not give them what they're looking for! 
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: spacewasp on July 08, 2012, 04:11 pm
good point
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: HeadDoc on July 09, 2012, 01:09 am
i always wondered why people put just a tad bit too info out there for everyone to see. I am new to the forum and have been on SR for about two months, but under a different name. Great post!! i would like to see SR last longer than the other sites i use to deal with. But no site touches the Road b/c we are all out to help one another "well most of us are". Lets keep this thing as quiet as possible, b/c i think it's more than enough established already. i see noobs ever other time i log onto SR and i don't wanna get pinched by no dweeb
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: NFHC on July 09, 2012, 01:38 am
wise words unfortunately they will be unread by many of the main site users
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: grahamgreene on July 09, 2012, 03:56 am
Lets keep this thing as quiet as possible, b/c i think it's more than enough established already. i see noobs ever other time i log onto SR and i don't wanna get pinched by no dweeb

Are you serious HeadDoc?! May I ask how YOU found out about Silk Road? Hypothetically speaking, if it were possible, would it be just to wipe every trace of Silk Road from clearweb tweets and news reports?! I myself found out about SR after the very first Gawker article and have since spent many thousands of US $ here. The publicity that surrounds us is the best possible thing for ALL of us. Just because YOU now know about Silk Road, does that mean your peers shouldn't be afforded the same opportunities as you?

Everybody was a 'noob' once. Given your viewpoint I would hazard a guess that you remain a 'noob.'
We don't need to keep SR quiet, we need to shout it from the rooftops. We need to convince others to start using it to purchase their product of choice. We need to allow the masses to enlighten themselves through the purchase of personally enlightening subtstances. We need to allow those of us who are addicted to substances to purchase peer reviewed products without risking being robbed or being supplied with bunk / dangerous product. We need to allow our experimenting teens purchase products which are vouched for, tested, and for which they have some degree of recourse rather than sending them out onto the street looking to score who knows what from their neighbourhood dealer, with the risks inherent therein.

Ladies and gents, if you cannot see the value of Silk Road beyond the fact that it caters very well to your choice of substances, you're missing the entire point of what Silk Road / Dread Pirate Roberts envisioned. Sure, Silk Road is a money-making entity, but it HAS to be in order to finance it's security. I don't think anybody would begrudge DPR his/her/their rightful cut of the earnings either.

Silk Road is revolutionary in the extreme, but not just for personal choice. Every product we purchase stands for something. Every Dollar/Euro/Pound/Rand/Franc we spend here makes a statement. A statement that we support freeing our brethren from the shackles of their forced criminality. A statement that we need to breathe life into those who are being destroyed by 'the system.' A statement that we need  to and WILL offer a lifeline to those who are forced into local 'criminality'. We need to support those who CHOOSE to enlighten their communities and customers by supplying the BEST product in their locality. We need to move away from punishing personal choice. We need to move away from government thinking they 'know what's best." WE ARE ALL BORN FREE. WE ALL DIE FREE. It is the constraints of bondage of GOVERNMENT that take away our free will during the course of our lives. EVERY SINGLE HUMAN IS BORN FREE.

Though I am atheist, to those of you who are of a religious persuasion, and your governments who blindly follow the the same ideals: did God not grant every individual free will?! Did He/She/It not afford you the opportunity to make your own choices in life?! Who is your government to take away your NATURAL, FREE rights?! Who is your government to say that you cannot partake in something simply because they consider it to be 'bad'?! WHO IS ONE MAN, OR ONE WOMAN, TO TELL YOU THAT YOU MAY OR MAY NOT DO SOMETHING WITH *YOUR* BODY?! Rise up. Fight the tyranny inherent in the system you've come to rely on. Never allow yourself to be instructed by another entity, especially an entity with self-preservation on it's mind.

The system isn't going to change because of our small actions. We need to TAKE CONTROL of the system in order to change it. We have the ways and means to do this through mass revolt. Unfortunately a HUGE number of us couldn't be bothered. As much of a hypocrite as it may make me, I must include myself there. I have no shame in admitting that, because it is the truth. We must force out the lies, both from ourselves and from our governments. We must eliminate governmental self-preservation, and we must eliminate personal ideals of self-preservation. We must - together and in complete agreement - fight for the right of the individual to govern him/herself.

HeadDoc, tell your friends about Silk Road. Foster their potential anti-government sentiment. Encourage them to fight for what is naturally RIGHT. Never let anyone tell you that you are doing wrong by fostering the spirit of rebellion. Without rebellion, our people as a whole would have been crushed under some flag or another centuries ago.

Keep up the good fight. Never give in. Never give up. Never capitulate to those whose sole purpose is to take away your freedom.
To quote someone FAR wiser than I: be the change you wish to see in the world.

- grahamgreene
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: opi on July 09, 2012, 04:35 am
hey GG, I rather people tell their FRIENDS and increase membership that way, then a journalist write an article about it and everyone and their dog knows about it. Which makes politicians and more LEO's know about it and actually want to try to do something about it.
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: tootiefruitie on July 09, 2012, 08:08 am
graham, while i appreciate your oh-so-eloquent diatribe against oppresive governments, and completely agree, i think the logic most likely to be listened to by someone like HeadDoc is:

as buyers, we NEED "noob" vendors to find this place.  if every time a vendor left, he was never replaced, silk road would become bad very fast. 


i do agree with opi, that media can definitely put pressure on law enforcement to do something, even if that something is just intercepting more packages. (still not good)

but depending on the media outlet, i do believe that some might do more good than harm.



Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: LouisCyphre on July 09, 2012, 11:02 am
Keep up the good fight. Never give in. Never give up. Never capitulate to those whose sole purpose is to take away your freedom.
To quote someone FAR wiser than I: be the change you wish to see in the world.

Well said! +1

Also, awesome nick.
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: brutusk on July 09, 2012, 05:33 pm
Lets keep this thing as quiet as possible, b/c i think it's more than enough established already. i see noobs ever other time i log onto SR and i don't wanna get pinched by no dweeb

Are you serious HeadDoc?! May I ask how YOU found out about Silk Road? Hypothetically speaking, if it were possible, would it be just to wipe every trace of Silk Road from clearweb tweets and news reports?! I myself found out about SR after the very first Gawker article and have since spent many thousands of US $ here. The publicity that surrounds us is the best possible thing for ALL of us. Just because YOU now know about Silk Road, does that mean your peers shouldn't be afforded the same opportunities as you?

Everybody was a 'noob' once. Given your viewpoint I would hazard a guess that you remain a 'noob.'
We don't need to keep SR quiet, we need to shout it from the rooftops. We need to convince others to start using it to purchase their product of choice. We need to allow the masses to enlighten themselves through the purchase of personally enlightening subtstances. We need to allow those of us who are addicted to substances to purchase peer reviewed products without risking being robbed or being supplied with bunk / dangerous product. We need to allow our experimenting teens purchase products which are vouched for, tested, and for which they have some degree of recourse rather than sending them out onto the street looking to score who knows what from their neighbourhood dealer, with the risks inherent therein.

Ladies and gents, if you cannot see the value of Silk Road beyond the fact that it caters very well to your choice of substances, you're missing the entire point of what Silk Road / Dread Pirate Roberts envisioned. Sure, Silk Road is a money-making entity, but it HAS to be in order to finance it's security. I don't think anybody would begrudge DPR his/her/their rightful cut of the earnings either.

Silk Road is revolutionary in the extreme, but not just for personal choice. Every product we purchase stands for something. Every Dollar/Euro/Pound/Rand/Franc we spend here makes a statement. A statement that we support freeing our brethren from the shackles of their forced criminality. A statement that we need to breathe life into those who are being destroyed by 'the system.' A statement that we need  to and WILL offer a lifeline to those who are forced into local 'criminality'. We need to support those who CHOOSE to enlighten their communities and customers by supplying the BEST product in their locality. We need to move away from punishing personal choice. We need to move away from government thinking they 'know what's best." WE ARE ALL BORN FREE. WE ALL DIE FREE. It is the constraints of bondage of GOVERNMENT that take away our free will during the course of our lives. EVERY SINGLE HUMAN IS BORN FREE.

Though I am atheist, to those of you who are of a religious persuasion, and your governments who blindly follow the the same ideals: did God not grant every individual free will?! Did He/She/It not afford you the opportunity to make your own choices in life?! Who is your government to take away your NATURAL, FREE rights?! Who is your government to say that you cannot partake in something simply because they consider it to be 'bad'?! WHO IS ONE MAN, OR ONE WOMAN, TO TELL YOU THAT YOU MAY OR MAY NOT DO SOMETHING WITH *YOUR* BODY?! Rise up. Fight the tyranny inherent in the system you've come to rely on. Never allow yourself to be instructed by another entity, especially an entity with self-preservation on it's mind.

The system isn't going to change because of our small actions. We need to TAKE CONTROL of the system in order to change it. We have the ways and means to do this through mass revolt. Unfortunately a HUGE number of us couldn't be bothered. As much of a hypocrite as it may make me, I must include myself there. I have no shame in admitting that, because it is the truth. We must force out the lies, both from ourselves and from our governments. We must eliminate governmental self-preservation, and we must eliminate personal ideals of self-preservation. We must - together and in complete agreement - fight for the right of the individual to govern him/herself.

HeadDoc, tell your friends about Silk Road. Foster their potential anti-government sentiment. Encourage them to fight for what is naturally RIGHT. Never let anyone tell you that you are doing wrong by fostering the spirit of rebellion. Without rebellion, our people as a whole would have been crushed under some flag or another centuries ago.

Keep up the good fight. Never give in. Never give up. Never capitulate to those whose sole purpose is to take away your freedom.
To quote someone FAR wiser than I: be the change you wish to see in the world.

- grahamgreene

True.d It's also a good place to score dope  :P
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: jpinkman on July 09, 2012, 05:57 pm
first, i know i've read this before, but i've never seen a thread dedicated to it.  so, sorry if this is "beating a dead horse" for some people.


in review threads and a even elsewhere lately, a very large number of people have been posting things like "just received X specific package in Y specific region, it took exactly Z amount of time"  or even worse, "my order for X was marked in transit today.  it's being shipped to Y, when do you think it will be here?"


Of the two examples you used I have no problem with the former posted to seller feedback. It's description comes after the fact and it really helps inform prospective buyers whether to use a vendor or not since it narrows down how many days they're taking to ship and how long it takes to get to what region. In fact, I would encourage such descriptive feedback.

I'm really not sure what you're so paranoid about when describing ex post facto.
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: Wazup7 on July 09, 2012, 06:07 pm
In reply to the OP--I agree.  I limit my feedbacks to "continent of origin to continent of receipt" if its even relevent, and don't get specific as to where in the continent the package was shipped to.  I also (***unlike so many other***), use the edit feedback feature of this site, and typically don't post that kind of information until a week or two after I've received, tested, and enjoyed the product.  I think that information, and the timeframe of posting it, not only gives LE very little to work with, but is also somewhat valuable to the other members on this site.

If I'm out of line, feel free to call me on it.  I'd like to know what others think.

As for GG's reply--

Spreading the word is a great idea in principle.  The only thing I don't like about the media publicity is it's blatant bias and disregard for truthful reporting.  A few threads down, there is a thread about ASSHOLE reporters writing about Silk Road, and one of them said in the intro sentence that you can get drugs, weapons, and child porn on Silk Road.  That is wrong and sends the entirely wrong message to government officials, who, let's be honest, will take that report on it's word and will proceed under the assumption that SR does indeed make CP accessible to all

Word of mouth seems to be good enough for me to allow this community to grow.  I've been here for over a year, and I used to "keep real quiet" about this site, until the original Gawker article was released.  After seeing the feedback from community members, I realized that it's "safe" to keep SR a secret, yes, but in order for SR to grow and become THE go-to marketplace for our favorite substances, the word needs to be spread.  Since that article was released, I've referred probably 10 new users to this site.

But don't get me wrong, I don't just go around preaching about this place to everyone I think might be interested.  I only tell people who I know are trustworthy, resourceful, and have a good enough head on their shoulders to be upstanding members of this community.  I'm not trying to get tons of newbs on this site who have no idea what its all about.  Everyone I've "brought in to the loop" already knew about PGP, security, anonymity, and most of all, respect and patience.  I'm not even sure who they've gone and told after that--but we discussed it and I trust them enough to make good decisions if they are actually inclined to share this site with others.

Above all, members need to be RESPECTFUL to every other member, period.  I find that there are many users who take this place for granted, and have the idea in their head that since they got here, they have a right to act like they own it.  I hate that attitude.  So unrestricted growth, in my opinion, is a slippery slope for tihs site to go on
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: tootiefruitie on July 10, 2012, 06:41 am
first, i know i've read this before, but i've never seen a thread dedicated to it.  so, sorry if this is "beating a dead horse" for some people.


in review threads and a even elsewhere lately, a very large number of people have been posting things like "just received X specific package in Y specific region, it took exactly Z amount of time"  or even worse, "my order for X was marked in transit today.  it's being shipped to Y, when do you think it will be here?"


Of the two examples you used I have no problem with the former posted to seller feedback. It's description comes after the fact and it really helps inform prospective buyers whether to use a vendor or not since it narrows down how many days they're taking to ship and how long it takes to get to what region. In fact, I would encourage such descriptive feedback.

I'm really not sure what you're so paranoid about when describing ex post facto.

you're right that it doesn't pose nearly as much of a risk.  i should have emphasized more clearly that one is much more serious than the other.

but, i'm sure i'm not the only one who has noticed feedback on certain bulk vendors' websites that is region specific, and repeats verbatim in set intervals of 6-10 or 12-18 days, etc.  it's not extrememly common, but it definitely sticks out. if we truly want everyone to stay safe, these are the things we must pay attention to.  if i can tell by just a quick look through a couple months of feedback that there is  a reseller in a certain area, and even pinpoint a relatively specific window of the next likely shipment along with its country of origin, i'm sure any LE interested in harassing SR users could do the same. 

call me paranoid all you want, but it's only a matter of time until LE does SOMETHING.  it behooves us to do our best to prevent everything we can.
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: jpinkman on July 10, 2012, 09:43 am
but, i'm sure i'm not the only one who has noticed feedback on certain bulk vendors' websites that is region specific, and repeats verbatim in set intervals of 6-10 or 12-18 days, etc.  it's not extrememly common, but it definitely sticks out. if we truly want everyone to stay safe, these are the things we must pay attention to.  if i can tell by just a quick look through a couple months of feedback that there is  a reseller in a certain area, and even pinpoint a relatively specific window of the next likely shipment along with its country of origin, i'm sure any LE interested in harassing SR users could do the same. 

Uh, I don't think you've properly thought this through. When LE decides to crack down, there are far easier ways to do what you're suggesting than deciphering ambiguous seller feedback and try to time interception of packages to a particular region. To pinpoint a vendor, they need only open an account and start buying from that vendor. I'm sure they've got a map somewhere where they've narrowed each major vendor down to postal code & area they ship from both domestic and international. To find out buyer info they can either flip a current vendor they bust or get someone they've already busted to play narc to just setup shop with a vending account and just start collecting names and addresses in the process of making sales. They could just start monitoring these addresses for incoming shipments. Far easier than trying to find a needle in a haystack intercepting a package they think might be going to a certain region.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about how the buyer experience can be improved since it can be like navigating a minefield with so many shady and flakey vendors, and including in seller feedback of how long it took to arrive to what region and how long it took seller to ship would go a long way in helping buyers make better informed decisions. I would encourage every buyer to include this information. Then it wouldn't "stand out" but instead be the norm. :)

Quote
call me paranoid all you want, but it's only a matter of time until LE does SOMETHING.  it behooves us to do our best to prevent everything we can.

It's smart to be paranoid if you smartly focus your paranoia on what to be paranoid about. It's a waste to be paranoid about things that don't matter. I just don't see the risk you think is there by posting in seller feedback how long it took to get to a certain region.
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: tootiefruitie on July 11, 2012, 03:07 am
but, i'm sure i'm not the only one who has noticed feedback on certain bulk vendors' websites that is region specific, and repeats verbatim in set intervals of 6-10 or 12-18 days, etc.  it's not extrememly common, but it definitely sticks out. if we truly want everyone to stay safe, these are the things we must pay attention to.  if i can tell by just a quick look through a couple months of feedback that there is  a reseller in a certain area, and even pinpoint a relatively specific window of the next likely shipment along with its country of origin, i'm sure any LE interested in harassing SR users could do the same. 

Uh, I don't think you've properly thought this through. When LE decides to crack down, there are far easier ways to do what you're suggesting than deciphering ambiguous seller feedback and try to time interception of packages to a particular region. To pinpoint a vendor, they need only open an account and start buying from that vendor. I'm sure they've got a map somewhere where they've narrowed each major vendor down to postal code & area they ship from both domestic and international. To find out buyer info they can either flip a current vendor they bust or get someone they've already busted to play narc to just setup shop with a vending account and just start collecting names and addresses in the process of making sales. They could just start monitoring these addresses for incoming shipments. Far easier than trying to find a needle in a haystack intercepting a package they think might be going to a certain region.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about how the buyer experience can be improved since it can be like navigating a minefield with so many shady and flakey vendors, and including in seller feedback of how long it took to arrive to what region and how long it took seller to ship would go a long way in helping buyers make better informed decisions. I would encourage every buyer to include this information. Then it wouldn't "stand out" but instead be the norm. :)

Quote
call me paranoid all you want, but it's only a matter of time until LE does SOMETHING.  it behooves us to do our best to prevent everything we can.

It's smart to be paranoid if you smartly focus your paranoia on what to be paranoid about. It's a waste to be paranoid about things that don't matter. I just don't see the risk you think is there by posting in seller feedback how long it took to get to a certain region.

in that scenario, the LE target would have been the buyer who is also a reseller in his local area.  the assumption that there is a record of shipping postal codes for all major vendors is very likely.  just as likely, if not even more, is that a record of the most recent known packaging method used by each vendor.  packaging and country of origin alone would only be enough for customs to intercept a package if they got pretty luckly.  knowing a destination a smaller window of time could chop it down to a much smaller "haystack" but still a huge one.  and also, interception alone wouldn't be enough to arrest a person.  however, if they had reason to believe it was a local reseller, it could warrant the needed surveillance for a major charge.   the sharing of region and a regular pattern like a mentioned isn't a highly ranked security issue.  it would be smarter and require no more effort, to simply wait a random period of time before completing the feedback containing this information.

i should also add that when i posted about this stuff last night, i had been doing meth for a while.  i guess all of those jokes on threads like these were actually for a reason.  it essentially made me view a 1% chance of rain as a confirmed high category hurricane waiting to strike.  thank you for balancing it  to reduce any unnecessary fear.

with that said, i still think that sharing any details on the forum about packages not yet received IS a significant risk.  the destination country alone can make a difference, especially if it is a vendor shipping very large numbers of the exact same package from a relatively small country.  without this information being shared, a vendor's origin postcode, return address and packaging being changed at a sufficient frequency  would successfully keep LE/customs in the dark for what to look for. For example if a new prodcut is released, and 10 people say theyre expecting something that would be in a specific size parcel or envelope from indonesia, the amount of items arriving from indonesia through customs each day is probably small enough that 20 or 30 or more matching parcels would be much more easily found and suspected if a heads up was provided, even if the packaging, return address, etc were all new.   i'm sure there is someone (or multiple) like a DEA agent whose  job is to advise customs on current red flags and specific areas to watch for SR packages. there is no reason to give them any extra for the list.

again, thank you jpinkman for pointing out what was rational and what was not.  i'm a bit embarassed that i let my drug induced state make my tinfoil thick enough to overtake logic. but your name is hilariously appropriate for the drug that caused the issues. :D
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: BenJesuit on July 11, 2012, 03:26 am
At most one could say, "took x days to arrive to East Coast." That's the absolute max that could be said. After all, east coast is comprised of 13+ states (depending on whether you count states that don't exactly border the "coast"). Massive geological area that wouldn't tip LEO off to anything specific. Just never mention state or county. And never mention the Seller's state.

Pretty much first class mail or Priority mail only takes 1-4 days to anywhere in the US. It may seem longer because some sellers mark "in transit" when in fact it's not actually in transit on the day they marked it as such.

So in the end, no one really needs to leave feedback about how many days in transit the package was. If anything that would be helpful, say, "took seller x days to ship after order." (Just compare your postmark with the day they marked in transit). This way your fellow buyers can see if there's a pattern to the seller's shipping time and can decide if it's worth the wait or the probability that the package will make it by the weekend. ;)
Title: Re: actions that WILL compromise shipping methods. please STOP them.
Post by: tootiefruitie on July 11, 2012, 05:20 am
time in transit does vary significantly with international orders.  it is good to have an idea of recent shipping times, especially so you know if you should be worried it's late.  like i said above, it may not be much risk at all after the fact, but just wait a random period of time before leaving the feedback (still finalize of course) and if it's something you receive regularly, don't post the same thing verbatim every time.  maybe it will never be used against you, but why knowingly leave any pattern to follow?