Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: Dread Pirate Roberts on August 08, 2013, 08:20 pm
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I've had to make many hard decisions in my time as DPR, and this is one of the hardest.
A few days ago, the vendor known as BlueGiraffe (BG) came to me and confessed that he had been saving the addresses of his customers. He said he did this for convenience when reships were in order. As is always the danger when data is retained, the data was leaked when the list of addresses was sent in clear text over tormail (edit: the addresses were sent with weak encryption, not in the clear). We are now fairly certain that tormail has been compromised and BG has done the right thing and warned all of his customers of the data leak.
On the one hand, BG committed a cardinal sin as a vendor that has always led to loss of vending privileges in the past. However, it was not done in malice and he did his best to minimize the damage as soon as he knew what happened. He put his customers ahead of himself in the end, and did so admirably. Part of his behavior must be punished, and the other part should not be and should even be encouraged.
I've decided to take the following action: The BlueGiraffe vendor account will stay demoted. It's official record and reputation will end. However, within the community, BG's good actions will not be forgotten and he will be allowed and even encouraged to open a new vendor account and continue serving the Silk Road community. I think we can all see how sincerely sorry he is for what he did and trust him never to breach his vendor contract again. I encourage his customers to give him a second chance and buy from whatever new account he sets up to help him get back to good standing as a top vendor on SR.
BG has set an excellent example of what to do and what not to do and I thank him for his contribution. I have no doubt that his reputation will quickly be restored and that his loss of business as he starts over with a new account will be adequate punishment, but not too severe.
It would be nice to hear from BG regarding this decision and to hear what we can expect from him going forward along with the name of his new account if he chooses to set one up.
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I've had to make many hard decisions in my time as DPR, and this is one of the hardest.
A few days ago, the vendor known as BlueGiraffe (BG) came to me and confessed that he had been saving the addresses of his customers. He said he did this for convenience when reships were in order. As is always the danger when data is retained, the data was leaked when the list of addresses was sent in clear text over tormail. We are now fairly certain that tormail has been compromised and BG has done the right thing and warned all of his customers of the data leak.
On the one hand, BG committed a cardinal sin as a vendor that has always led to loss of vending privileges in the past. However, it was not done in malice and he did his best to minimize the damage as soon as he knew what happened. He put his customers ahead of himself in the end, and did so admirably. Part of his behavior must be punished, and the other part should not be and should even be encouraged.
I've decided to take the following action: The BlueGiraffe vendor account will stay demoted. It's official record and reputation will end. However, within the community, BG's good actions will not be forgotten and he will be allowed and even encouraged to open a new vendor account and continue serving the Silk Road community. I think we can all see how sincerely sorry he is for what he did and trust him never to breach his vendor contract again. I encourage his customers to give him a second chance and buy from whatever new account he sets up to help him get back to good standing as a top vendor on SR.
BG has set an excellent example of what to do and what not to do and I thank him for his contribution. I have no doubt that his reputation will quickly be restored and that his loss of business as he starts over with a new account will be adequate punishment, but not too severe.
It would be nice to hear from BG regarding this decision and to hear what we can expect from him going forward along with the name of his new account if he chooses to set one up.
Yes, I think this is totally fair. I look forward to finding out what the new vendor account will be. :)
Thanks DPR and thanks BG for being so up front. These are the kinds of vendors SR needs, and this is what really makes the community what it is.
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I agree on this decision and BG sincerely deserves another chance since s/he has shown that s/he is a good vendor (no matter the error) and deserves to be here.
I hope the best for him/her and I'm sure this error will be a good lesson on which to grow even more. I also sincerely hope that no harm will come to the people who bought from BG and that everything will resolve with no trouble for anybody.
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The punishment fits the crime.
There are no winners in this scenario. (except LE)
However, the people involved handled an unfortunate panic fairly well.
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A good call and I'm sure BG will appreciate your vote of confidence. It's a situation that I hope no one else ever finds themselves in, particularly those vendors who are still keeping addresses, encrypted or not.
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I think its fair, BlueGiraffe i hope you dont make the same mistake twice.
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It's a situation that I hope no one else ever finds themselves in, particularly those vendors who are still keeping addresses, encrypted or not.
I actually hope that if there's still some vendors that do this that they will learn from what happened here and resolve the issue asap.
There are really no positives on keeping address since the too many possible drawbacks completely annihilate them as this occurrence demonstrated much too well; even without malice behind the act the outcome has been pretty dramatic.
Keeping addresses is simply put a too great responsibility to have on your shoulders and nobody could be able to sustain that weight.
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Sounds fair. I hope BG continues here. Im sure s/he rise his/her reputation back to where it was.
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BG is a great vendor and was honest enough to make a thread asap and let his customers know rather than sit quietly, shows character and honesty +1 BG :)
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The title of this thread seemed a little ominous but I'm glad BG might stick around. <3
Where's my Fate Of Brucecampbell Thread boss?
Oh. There's like three of them.
:D
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It's very unfortunate what happened but I'm glad you're encouraging BG to come back under another name, it's nice to see SR support vendors through mistakes as we are all only human :)
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I agree on this decision and BG sincerely deserves another chance since s/he has shown that s/he is a good vendor (no matter the error) and deserves to be here.
I hope the best for him/her and I'm sure this error will be a good lesson on which to grow even more. I also sincerely hope that no harm will come to the people who bought from BG and that everything will resolve with no trouble for anybody.
+1
I just want to say this is a great post and I support it completely.
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Sorry, DPR, but that reads like total bullshit.
His disclosure is admirable, I agree, and I do respect him for that but you are whitewashing his "cardinal sin" with your explanation.
He should be allowed to "continue serving the SR community"???
He did the greatest disservice he could possibly commit by handing over the addresses and identities of his customers to the FBI!!! And who knows how many other vendors kept the same type of records in Tormail accounts, and now, potentially, there are multiple instances of those very same addresses and personal info that the FBI is sorting through right now!
Lack of malice intent is fucking irrelevant when SR customers can potentially get fucked and their lives ruined! Servicing the SR community??? Or servicing your fucking BTC wallet?
I don't know if there can be any greater punishment, but it is not for you to forgive when it was not you he put in danger but the dozens or hundreds of customers he fucked! Your statement shows a genuine lack of understanding of the severity of the situation as it affects the backbone of the SR community, the buyers who line your wallet.
Bad form, DPR. Chastising but patting him on the back. You need a CTRL-Z on this one.
To bluegiraffe: Yeah, you did the right thing by coming clean but you're a dick for having to have to do it at all.
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Find myself agreeing in part with VinnieJones.
One of the central tenants of the road is about mitigating risk. To do that we use all manner of applications to hide our true identities. This ranges all the way from Tor to vendors using Mylar bags.
BG knowingly kept a list of vendors addresses not because he/she/they are assholes but to help make their job easier. For me I'd rather a vendor took longer to send out a package because they had to type in a new address then print it out rather than one that's already loaded into a system.
I value security over anything else. I'm trying to reduce risk as much as possible and I buy based on a number of provisos - one of them being that the vendor helps keep my identity anonymous.
BG has indicated they value making their job easier at the expense of the buyers anonymity.
Does closing their account but allowing them to make a new one act as enough of an example to ensure the safety of all those who use the road? I'm not sure it does but I'm also not sure that there is much else DPR can do.
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Not wanting to put words in other peoples mouths I am sure DPR appreciates the severity of BlueGiraffe's actions, keeping of buyers info is a very serious matter. I think it might be helpful for everyone to remember though this is an anonymous market place and there is nothing to stop a banned vendor returning and they do. Some people get very upset with SR when a banned vendor returns, however from an admins perspective it is better to know the new identify of a previously banned vendor because they know it will keep them on their toes and the first sign of trouble and they are gone.
BlueGiraffe fucked up in a very big way and they were big enough to admit that and own their fuck up, I haven't seen any posts from BlueGirafffe trying to downplay or minimize what they did and I am also confident they will never make that same mistake again.
I would rather have a contrite BlueGiraffe return than a sneaky scammer/rule breaker trying to fly under the radar and reinvent themselves only to pull another scam/fuck up further down the track.
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Not wanting to put words in other peoples mouths I am sure DPR appreciates the severity of BlueGiraffe's actions, keeping of buyers info is a very serious matter. I think it might be helpful for everyone to remember though this is an anonymous market place and there is nothing to stop a banned vendor returning and they do. Some people get very upset with SR when a banned vendor returns, however from an admins perspective it is better to know the new identify of a previously banned vendor because they know it will keep them on their toes and the first sign of trouble and they are gone.
BlueGiraffe fucked up in a very big way and they were big enough to admit that and own their fuck up, I haven't seen any posts from BlueGirafffe trying to downplay or minimize what they did and I am also confident they will never make that same mistake again.
I would rather have a contrite BlueGiraffe return than a sneaky scammer/rule breaker trying to fly under the radar and reinvent themselves only to pull another scam/fuck up further down the track.
I feel exactly the same and couldn't have put it better.
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Sorry, DPR, but that reads like total bullshit.
His disclosure is admirable, I agree, and I do respect him for that but you are whitewashing his "cardinal sin" with your explanation.
He should be allowed to "continue serving the SR community"???
He did the greatest disservice he could possibly commit by handing over the addresses and identities of his customers to the FBI!!! And who knows how many other vendors kept the same type of records in Tormail accounts, and now, potentially, there are multiple instances of those very same addresses and personal info that the FBI is sorting through right now!
Lack of malice intent is fucking irrelevant when SR customers can potentially get fucked and their lives ruined! Servicing the SR community??? Or servicing your fucking BTC wallet?
I don't know if there can be any greater punishment, but it is not for you to forgive when it was not you he put in danger but the dozens or hundreds of customers he fucked! Your statement shows a genuine lack of understanding of the severity of the situation as it affects the backbone of the SR community, the buyers who line your wallet.
Bad form, DPR. Chastising but patting him on the back. You need a CTRL-Z on this one.
To bluegiraffe: Yeah, you did the right thing by coming clean but you're a dick for having to have to do it at all.
What's SR supposed to do? Ban any new vendors selling the same things that BG used to sell? There is really no problem for you. This way you get the best of both worlds. BG got banned and if he posts his new username, you will know what his new account name is so that you can avoid buying from him/her in the future if that's what you want to do.
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Not wanting to put words in other peoples mouths I am sure DPR appreciates the severity of BlueGiraffe's actions, keeping of buyers info is a very serious matter. I think it might be helpful for everyone to remember though this is an anonymous market place and there is nothing to stop a banned vendor returning and they do. Some people get very upset with SR when a banned vendor returns, however from an admins perspective it is better to know the new identify of a previously banned vendor because they know it will keep them on their toes and the first sign of trouble and they are gone.
BlueGiraffe fucked up in a very big way and they were big enough to admit that and own their fuck up, I haven't seen any posts from BlueGirafffe trying to downplay or minimize what they did and I am also confident they will never make that same mistake again.
I would rather have a contrite BlueGiraffe return than a sneaky scammer/rule breaker trying to fly under the radar and reinvent themselves only to pull another scam/fuck up further down the track.
Yeah on one hand they did the right thing and on the other they screwed up royally but where is the incentive to NOT do this ever again? How can BG help prevent others from doing this in the future? Some more thinking needs to be done around this I think.
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Yeah on one hand they did the right thing and on the other they screwed up royally but where is the incentive to NOT do this ever again? How can BG help prevent others from doing this in the future? Some more thinking needs to be done around this I think.
This decision creates incentive for people to be honest when they have compromised the security of their customers. Then at least buyers can be aware of the threat they have been exposed to. The alternative is to swing hammers and then no one will ever admit when they fucked up.
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I've had to make many hard decisions in my time as DPR, and this is one of the hardest.
A few days ago, the vendor known as BlueGiraffe (BG) came to me and confessed that he had been saving the addresses of his customers. He said he did this for convenience when reships were in order. As is always the danger when data is retained, the data was leaked when the list of addresses was sent in clear text over tormail. We are now fairly certain that tormail has been compromised and BG has done the right thing and warned all of his customers of the data leak.
On the one hand, BG committed a cardinal sin as a vendor that has always led to loss of vending privileges in the past. However, it was not done in malice and he did his best to minimize the damage as soon as he knew what happened. He put his customers ahead of himself in the end, and did so admirably. Part of his behavior must be punished, and the other part should not be and should even be encouraged.
I've decided to take the following action: The BlueGiraffe vendor account will stay demoted. It's official record and reputation will end. However, within the community, BG's good actions will not be forgotten and he will be allowed and even encouraged to open a new vendor account and continue serving the Silk Road community. I think we can all see how sincerely sorry he is for what he did and trust him never to breach his vendor contract again. I encourage his customers to give him a second chance and buy from whatever new account he sets up to help him get back to good standing as a top vendor on SR.
BG has set an excellent example of what to do and what not to do and I thank him for his contribution. I have no doubt that his reputation will quickly be restored and that his loss of business as he starts over with a new account will be adequate punishment, but not too severe.
It would be nice to hear from BG regarding this decision and to hear what we can expect from him going forward along with the name of his new account if he chooses to set one up.
whats about the rest of them or the buying and selling of data aka addressess >:( >:(
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The punishment fits the crime.
There are no winners in this scenario. (except LE)
However, the people involved handled an unfortunate panic fairly well.
Well, when you've got a nice stash of GHB, it's rather difficult to panic ;) 8)
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Yeah on one hand they did the right thing and on the other they screwed up royally but where is the incentive to NOT do this ever again? How can BG help prevent others from doing this in the future? Some more thinking needs to be done around this I think.
This decision creates incentive for people to be honest when they have compromised the security of their customers. Then at least buyers can be aware of the threat they have been exposed to. The alternative is to swing hammers and then no one will ever admit when they fucked up.
I understand the thinking behind the punishment but it feels very passive. Ban the account, create a new one and move on. We have sticky threads to highlight importance and remind people to stay safe, I feel this event is an opportunity to do something similar.
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Will he still have to walk the plank?
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I cannot understand why it is so difficult for a vendor to use SR as is. Which means print the fucking address and let the SR destroy it. If i return a thousand times do it again a thousand times. how difficult can it be.
This is pure danger for his customers. wtf, that case stinks. I am sure others vendors do it too, but i cant find a reason other than laziness to decrypt a PGP message. Which well deserves the punishment of the vendor.
I hope everyone stays safe and Silk Road stays alive.
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So has it been determined how long bluegiraffe should wait before starting a new vendor account? Shouldn't they have to wait a period of time before restarting? We should wait and see what the fallout from this is. Let's not forget they also compromised another vendor. I agree with the punishment. There is no point in banning them indefinitely because they could just start up on a different market. What's done is done. It was incredibly foolish but there is nothing that can be done now. I would suggest that anybody who bought off bluegiraffe lay low for a while.
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This really is a no win situation if I've ever seen one ...... BG couldn't have violated his customers trust in a worse way ...... can't say anything that hasn't already been said, and no sense in beating a dead horse to death. I am not not now nor have I ever been a customer of BG ( THANK GOD !! ) and I too felt like he did the stand up thing by warning his customers. Being that he could slip under the fence and start a new account any time he wants it seems prudent to just let him identify his new vendor account. I also think that anyone who thinks BG is the only Vendor retaining addresses needs to have their heads examined. Although I doubt that any of them could have had the implosion that BG had due to huge chain of events that went from bad to worse to just plain fucking ridiculous. BG ....you have many satisfied customers and I wish you no ill will ....But I would never use you as a vendor. Sad situation
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Let's face it... if there had been even the smallest hint that he had been forced to come out with it and confess to the sin then it would be different but he wasn't... he (or she.. whatever) could have just walked away whistling and kicking the ground never to say a word about it to anyone ever and there is a better than average chance no one would have ever known beyond the agents that will use it as Intel to attempt to impact the mid level distribution network for whatever this dude sold..
The fact they 'fell on their sword' and at least gave people some warning shit may be about to hit the fan is the only reason there is any consideration should be extended to BG. Not only should he get some consideration from us all but he MUST get that consideration if we ever expect anyone to be upfront and honest when they fuck up in the future.. and its a when not if situation. The reality is that there will be those who are malicious in their intent and those that are not but the one sure thing is that fuck ups and dodgy things are as sure as your ass pointing towards the ground when you look straight up at the sky..
So BG did something that if the truth is known most other vendors do and then compounded the issue by failing to give the data the proper level of care and diligence by transmitting it unencrypted over a email service that while on tor was always an unknown entity in terms of its security. The question I want to ask is why on gods green earth was he emailing it and who to? That aside though once the freedom hosting seizure become known they did the one thing that they could to ensure people had warning and a chance to get their affairs and house in order. Without this final step they surely would have had no ramifications for at least the foreseeable future as its in LE's interest to maintain the element of surprise and so would simply begin the process to act on the Intel they have managed to stumble upon. As it is that they did do this last step although the damage has still been done they themselves now face some consequences for their poor judgment. They seem to have been an honest and professional vendor in all previous dealings with customers and so its very sad to know they let themselves and us all with their real fuck up; not the retaining data so much as the irresponsible handling of that data that's left it on a silver platter for the FBI to have.. Seriously... if your going to hold my details I can't stop you but at least have the brains to protect your asset and my data by encrypting it and being careful with its storage and transmission..
So yeah.. I get it sounds like he is getting away with blue murder but realistically they have lost everything by this mistake and subsequent confession and have given warning to those that need it which may save someone from being locked up. They will have a hard road coming back from this but they are an honest and good human being and save this event are the exact type of people we will need to have selling here if we expect to survive and flourish in the future.
Thank you DPR for the announcement and all the best to BG. You have my respect for your conduct and my faith that you are smart enough to see the real lesson to be learned here and are strong enough to be able to come back from this. You must be to have the courage to face the music the way you did so weathering the the fall out should be something you can handle. Peace and fuck prohibition and the mercenaries that live fat on the misery of normal hard working folk like those in the DEA, FBI and so on... seriously guys its time to start using your powers for goodness and not evilness.. pedo's are evil... we are not... freedom is something we will notice is missing as you keep taking things away from us and one day we will decide enough is enough...
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Yeah on one hand they did the right thing and on the other they screwed up royally but where is the incentive to NOT do this ever again? How can BG help prevent others from doing this in the future? Some more thinking needs to be done around this I think.
This decision creates incentive for people to be honest when they have compromised the security of their customers. Then at least buyers can be aware of the threat they have been exposed to. The alternative is to swing hammers and then no one will ever admit when they fucked up.
Most rational way to look at it.
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I cannot understand why it is so difficult for a vendor to use SR as is. Which means print the fucking address and let the SR destroy it. If i return a thousand times do it again a thousand times. how difficult can it be.
This is pure danger for his customers. wtf, that case stinks. I am sure others vendors do it too, but i cant find a reason other than laziness to decrypt a PGP message. Which well deserves the punishment of the vendor.
I hope everyone stays safe and Silk Road stays alive.
???
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This is sad.
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I cannot understand why it is so difficult for a vendor to use SR as is. Which means print the fucking address and let the SR destroy it. If i return a thousand times do it again a thousand times. how difficult can it be.
This is pure danger for his customers. wtf, that case stinks. I am sure others vendors do it too, but i cant find a reason other than laziness to decrypt a PGP message. Which well deserves the punishment of the vendor.
I hope everyone stays safe and Silk Road stays alive.
Some vendors may keep names and addresses in an effort to protect themselves from scammers who change their username by starting new accounts or who may have multiple user names.
Most vendors sort of use SR "as is." They'll probably copy off all the order data needed then feed it into label making software after which point they delete the address. Only thing a vendor would need to keep until the order is finalized is at most the buyer's SR username, product ordered w/quantity, zip code and tracking number. Those would be necessary for resolutions. Simple to just keep TX#, Zip, tracking as SR has the rest of the details in the account log. But once finalized, they won't have much value.
The other thing that might make some vendors hold on to info longer than they should is in case a buyer changes feedback. Some sellers with perfect stats (100%) may want to protect that at all costs. And since the time allotted buyers to change feedback is a crazy long 3 months, some scamming buyers will change feedback to negative a week or so before they can't. And then they use it to black mail the vendor for free cash or drugs. Some buyers have gotten a rude awakening when pulling this type of scam.
I don't think that BG kept buyer's usernames, supposed or real names and addresses solely in case of a reorder since the majority of buyers do not encrypt addresses. Yes, decrypting lots of messages/addresses can be a PITA. But since most buyers don't use PGP, the 2 or 3 times out of 10 that you have to spend decrypting their PGP only adds about 20 - 30 secs more per order processed. If that. He probably kept it for running various metrics on his clientele to better gauge his business.
Anyway, most vendors want your address and order information gone ASAP because it's a liability. It's evidence. You can't readily tell if a vendor is keeping addresses unless when you negotiate or demand a reship and they send it without asking for your address again. A sure sign that they are keeping addresses. The key to minimizing the probability of a vendor keeping your addresses is not to make yourself memorable to the point a vendor might feel the need to protect him, her or themselves from you as a buyer. Be careful of what you put in feedback comments. Try to negotiate with vendors before leaving negative feedback. Even then be careful with leaving a 1/5. If you're going to be the one buyer to leave a 1/5 after a string of 5/5s, you might wnat to rethink it. Consider if it might be better to leave a comment that describes what happened rather that a 1/5 which will affect a vendor's rating. Affecting a vendor's rating might make them want to retain your address.
There were a lot of good points raised about how DPR responded. I can see the wisdom in his response. I feel bad for those who might be affected by this because it was through no fault of their own that they might now be at risk.
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So if he felt the need to keep this info why not keep it in a document file on an encrypted hard drive? I am not buying this story of it being in his tormail, unencrypted, for people to see. This is a complete bullshit story. Sounds like he sold his list to someone and emailed it without encrypting it, which is moronic, and then panicked when he found out tormail was compromised. You are being far too lenient and it makes me very angry that the staff here thinks buyers are sub 100 IQ morons that will buy whatever line of bullshit they hand out. Gee thanks for being honest that you saved my address in your tormail and the FBI got it. That makes it all better. But you'll try harder next time, you promise right? Laughable... The first time I had a problem with a vendor, Walmart, he flat out admitted he had saved my address and I reported him twice with no response and he is still vending here. I don't believe for a second you give a shit about safety here.
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I am not buying this story of it being in his tormail, unencrypted, for people to see. This is a complete bullshit story. Sounds like he sold his list to someone and emailed it without encrypting it, which is moronic, and then panicked when he found out tormail was compromised.
If he was willing to sell it to someone (I'm guessing you are implying the feds), why would he give a shit if it was compromised?
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I am not buying this story of it being in his tormail, unencrypted, for people to see. This is a complete bullshit story. Sounds like he sold his list to someone and emailed it without encrypting it, which is moronic, and then panicked when he found out tormail was compromised.
If he was willing to sell it to someone (I'm guessing you are implying the feds), why would he give a shit if it was compromised?
its all compromised with this shit :'(
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So far, we haven't heard anything pertaining to data on the Tormail server(s) so lets sit tight.
It take some guts to admit a serious mistake like that.
Obviously BG has some serious honor. I suppose any vendor with some time under their belt here has some honor (we hope).
In the dope world, even the anon dope world, that speaks volumes.
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This decision creates incentive for people to be honest when they have compromised the security of their customers. Then at least buyers can be aware of the threat they have been exposed to. The alternative is to swing hammers and then no one will ever admit when they fucked up.
Nonsense!
Firstly, BG didn't compromise the security of his customers just recently. He's been doing it since his first sale by keeping records, and committing that same sin with each subsequent sale. He's only recently disclosed how he's been compromising the security of his customers the entire time he's been vending.
Secondly, DPR's decision doesn't create any incentive for vendors to come clean. His account was taken away but he's free to come back. How is that different from a vendor who gets caught scamming and comes back under a different guise? The only difference is that BG is leaving but given explicit approval to come back. What incentive is that to come clean, really, when the net effect is the same?
Thirdly, you need to understand, precisely, why BG came clean and why that should have no bearing about providing incentives for disclosure for vendors that fuck up.
BG came clean because he's, without a doubt, a fucking really decent person!!! He's a horrible vendor but a really decent person. He put his customers in danger and he came here to try to mitigate the damage he might have caused by alerting them to the danger. The courage to make that disclosure comes from a person who has a fucking conscience and integrity, and that's why he's been so contrite and genuinely willing to "walk the plank." Vendors will disclose if they have a conscience and courage, not SR incentives.
Lastly, I haven't been writing to protest BG's punishment but DPR's sentiments regarding it.
How comfortable would you be right now if your name and address were on that spreadsheet? Would you have any idea how long you would have to wait before you find out if there are to be consequences of the spreadsheet? What about users who rarely frequent the forums or the market and are totally oblivious to the fact that their information may be in the hands of the feds? What if some of his customers have criminal liabilities and this would land them back in prison? Where do I stop?
So if you were one of those people, and you're here reading what, in effect, was DPR patting BG on the back and you, Astor, rationalizing his decision as the right thing to do for potential future indiscretions, I think it would be reasonable to think that DPR, you and others have lost sight of what actually just happened. That the screw up that has affected you, right here, right now, is being used to benefit some potential future victim(s). In what fucking world does that make sense?
DPR should have come down HARD on BG, like Old Testament Yahweh hard, for breaking his primary duty and responsibility to his customers. And he should have left it to those people, whose trust he betrayed, to forgive him and embrace him back into the community under another vendor account. It's not his place to 'forgive' by sending him on his way with a pat on his back when it wasn't him that was potentially affected in such a fucked up way.
And to same2butdifferent,
"I would rather have a contrite BlueGiraffe return than a sneaky scammer/rule breaker trying to fly under the radar and reinvent themselves only to pull another scam/fuck up further down the track."
I think if you asked those people whose personal information is floating around in a spreadsheet right now, I think they'd disagree; I think they'd rather have had been scammed out of hundreds or even thousands of dollars than have what's happening to them right now.
And for the last time, it is not your place to forgive when you were not the one harmed. That's beyond arrogant and incredibly inconsiderate to the victims of this mess.
To BG, you should understand that I'm not calling for your head, and I believe that your disclosure speaks volumes as to your character and integrity. I'm more railing against the people here who've been thoughtlessly commenting on this situation. Unfortunately, they're losing sight of who the victims are, and it's those people's forgiveness, I hope, provides any measure of peace.
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The first time I had a problem with a vendor, Walmart, he flat out admitted he had saved my address and I reported him twice with no response and he is still vending here. I don't believe for a second you give a shit about safety here.
SR appears to take corrective user actions in only two cases:
1 - Blatant violation of a rule continuously happening to many buyers all at once and being reported to SR via the main site report function by many users simultaneously.
2 - Any minor violation of any rule which the user admits to in a post on a forum.
So if you want Walmart kicked you'll either have to get more people to complain about him, or trick him into posting on these forums that he still has your address and point the gestapo (Libertas) to the post.
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The first time I had a problem with a vendor, Walmart, he flat out admitted he had saved my address and I reported him twice with no response and he is still vending here. I don't believe for a second you give a shit about safety here.
SR appears to take corrective user actions in only two cases:
1 - Blatant violation of a rule continuously happening to many buyers all at once and being reported to SR via the main site report function by many users simultaneously.
2 - Any minor violation of any rule which the user admits to in a post on a forum.
So if you want Walmart kicked you'll either have to get more people to complain about him, or trick him into posting on these forums that he still has your address and point the gestapo (Libertas) to the post.
Godwin's Law is a bitch sometimes.
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Nonsense!
Firstly, BG didn't compromise the security of his customers just recently. He's been doing it since his first sale by keeping records, and committing that same sin with each subsequent sale. He's only recently disclosed how he's been compromising the security of his customers the entire time he's been vending.
Secondly, DPR's decision doesn't create any incentive for vendors to come clean. His account was taken away but he's free to come back. How is that different from a vendor who gets caught scamming and comes back under a different guise? The only difference is that BG is leaving but given explicit approval to come back. What incentive is that to come clean, really, when the net effect is the same?
Thirdly, you need to understand, precisely, why BG came clean and why that should have no bearing about providing incentives for disclosure for vendors that fuck up.
BG came clean because he's, without a doubt, a fucking really decent person!!! He's a horrible vendor but a really decent person. He put his customers in danger and he came here to try to mitigate the damage he might have caused by alerting them to the danger. The courage to make that disclosure comes from a person who has a fucking conscience and integrity, and that's why he's been so contrite and genuinely willing to "walk the plank." Vendors will disclose if they have a conscience and courage, not SR incentives.
Lastly, I haven't been writing to protest BG's punishment but DPR's sentiments regarding it.
How comfortable would you be right now if your name and address were on that spreadsheet? Would you have any idea how long you would have to wait before you find out if there are to be consequences of the spreadsheet? What about users who rarely frequent the forums or the market and are totally oblivious to the fact that their information may be in the hands of the feds? What if some of his customers have criminal liabilities and this would land them back in prison? Where do I stop?
So if you were one of those people, and you're here reading what, in effect, was DPR patting BG on the back and you, Astor, rationalizing his decision as the right thing to do for potential future indiscretions, I think it would be reasonable to think that DPR, you and others have lost sight of what actually just happened. That the screw up that has affected you, right here, right now, is being used to benefit some potential future victim(s). In what fucking world does that make sense?
DPR should have come down HARD on BG, like Old Testament Yahweh hard, for breaking his primary duty and responsibility to his customers. And he should have left it to those people, whose trust he betrayed, to forgive him and embrace him back into the community under another vendor account. It's not his place to 'forgive' by sending him on his way with a pat on his back when it wasn't him that was potentially affected in such a fucked up way.
On further reflection, I think you are right. Vendors lose nothing by staying quiet anyway, and allowing BG to come back won't incentivize people to be honest, because it takes extraordinary character to do what BG did in the first place. Of course he could secretly come back under a different account if he was permanently banned, but so can every scammer, and that doesn't stop the admins from banning them.
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^^ of course a vendor can come back under a new name but that isn't a reason for DPR not to make a statement and defend the foundations of the road and its buyers.
Forgiving so quickly makes me think deeper about DPR'S motives and the level of seriousness he places on TRUST.
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This decision creates incentive for people to be honest when they have compromised the security of their customers. Then at least buyers can be aware of the threat they have been exposed to. The alternative is to swing hammers and then no one will ever admit when they fucked up.
Nonsense!
Firstly, BG didn't compromise the security of his customers just recently. He's been doing it since his first sale by keeping records, and committing that same sin with each subsequent sale. He's only recently disclosed how he's been compromising the security of his customers the entire time he's been vending.
Secondly, DPR's decision doesn't create any incentive for vendors to come clean. His account was taken away but he's free to come back. How is that different from a vendor who gets caught scamming and comes back under a different guise? The only difference is that BG is leaving but given explicit approval to come back. What incentive is that to come clean, really, when the net effect is the same?
Thirdly, you need to understand, precisely, why BG came clean and why that should have no bearing about providing incentives for disclosure for vendors that fuck up.
BG came clean because he's, without a doubt, a fucking really decent person!!! He's a horrible vendor but a really decent person. He put his customers in danger and he came here to try to mitigate the damage he might have caused by alerting them to the danger. The courage to make that disclosure comes from a person who has a fucking conscience and integrity, and that's why he's been so contrite and genuinely willing to "walk the plank." Vendors will disclose if they have a conscience and courage, not SR incentives.
Lastly, I haven't been writing to protest BG's punishment but DPR's sentiments regarding it.
How comfortable would you be right now if your name and address were on that spreadsheet? Would you have any idea how long you would have to wait before you find out if there are to be consequences of the spreadsheet? What about users who rarely frequent the forums or the market and are totally oblivious to the fact that their information may be in the hands of the feds? What if some of his customers have criminal liabilities and this would land them back in prison? Where do I stop?
So if you were one of those people, and you're here reading what, in effect, was DPR patting BG on the back and you, Astor, rationalizing his decision as the right thing to do for potential future indiscretions, I think it would be reasonable to think that DPR, you and others have lost sight of what actually just happened. That the screw up that has affected you, right here, right now, is being used to benefit some potential future victim(s). In what fucking world does that make sense?
DPR should have come down HARD on BG, like Old Testament Yahweh hard, for breaking his primary duty and responsibility to his customers. And he should have left it to those people, whose trust he betrayed, to forgive him and embrace him back into the community under another vendor account. It's not his place to 'forgive' by sending him on his way with a pat on his back when it wasn't him that was potentially affected in such a fucked up way.
And to same2butdifferent,
"I would rather have a contrite BlueGiraffe return than a sneaky scammer/rule breaker trying to fly under the radar and reinvent themselves only to pull another scam/fuck up further down the track."
I think if you asked those people whose personal information is floating around in a spreadsheet right now, I think they'd disagree; I think they'd rather have had been scammed out of hundreds or even thousands of dollars than have what's happening to them right now.
And for the last time, it is not your place to forgive when you were not the one harmed. That's beyond arrogant and incredibly inconsiderate to the victims of this mess.
To BG, you should understand that I'm not calling for your head, and I believe that your disclosure speaks volumes as to your character and integrity. I'm more railing against the people here who've been thoughtlessly commenting on this situation. Unfortunately, they're losing sight of who the victims are, and it's those people's forgiveness, I hope, provides any measure of peace.
Honestly you might be right. I did to BG exactly what I would have done to someone who was caught trying to get away with the same act, except I gave my opinion on the matter. I don't think we have only two types of vendors, honest and dishonest, and that their decisions are independent of precedent. If another vendor is faced with a similar situation and sees that BG was treated fairly and even praised for the honorable part of his behavior, then they too might follow his example and come clean. If that's the case, then my forgiving rhetoric will help keep people safe. Like I said in the OP, it wasn't an easy decision and it's hard to know the best path to take, but at some point you just have to act, learn as much as you can for the next tough decision, and eventually move on.
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Honestly you might be right. I did to BG exactly what I would have done to someone who was caught trying to get away with the same act, except I gave my opinion on the matter. I don't think we have only two types of vendors, honest and dishonest, and that their decisions are independent of precedent. If another vendor is faced with a similar situation and sees that BG was treated fairly and even praised for the honorable part of his behavior, then they too might follow his example and come clean. If that's the case, then my forgiving rhetoric will help keep people safe. Like I said in the OP, it wasn't an easy decision and it's hard to know the best path to take, but at some point you just have to act, learn as much as you can for the next tough decision, and eventually move on.
If you are indeed welcoming him back and you in fact encouraged it....then why take away his account in the first place? It is not about the money on your end....
It just seems really silly that SR (you) ban a vendor account like you did here( for the record I agree with everything you have said about this matter) but allow, and in this case want, him to resume vending.
It would make a lot more sense to suspend his account for 30 days or something like that then to take away his vendor account and then encourage him to just sign right back up. If it was about a "fine", as in opening a new vendor account will cost him a very little amount of money, then fine him also.
All you are doing essentially is taking away his original account name. And for what? I get what he did, I understand your position 100% and I happen to agree with it. I just do not understand at all you taking away his account. It seems silly.
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Nonsense!
Firstly, BG didn't compromise the security of his customers just recently. He's been doing it since his first sale by keeping records, and committing that same sin with each subsequent sale. He's only recently disclosed how he's been compromising the security of his customers the entire time he's been vending.
Secondly, DPR's decision doesn't create any incentive for vendors to come clean. His account was taken away but he's free to come back. How is that different from a vendor who gets caught scamming and comes back under a different guise? The only difference is that BG is leaving but given explicit approval to come back. What incentive is that to come clean, really, when the net effect is the same?
Thirdly, you need to understand, precisely, why BG came clean and why that should have no bearing about providing incentives for disclosure for vendors that fuck up.
BG came clean because he's, without a doubt, a fucking really decent person!!! He's a horrible vendor but a really decent person. He put his customers in danger and he came here to try to mitigate the damage he might have caused by alerting them to the danger. The courage to make that disclosure comes from a person who has a fucking conscience and integrity, and that's why he's been so contrite and genuinely willing to "walk the plank." Vendors will disclose if they have a conscience and courage, not SR incentives.
Lastly, I haven't been writing to protest BG's punishment but DPR's sentiments regarding it.
How comfortable would you be right now if your name and address were on that spreadsheet? Would you have any idea how long you would have to wait before you find out if there are to be consequences of the spreadsheet? What about users who rarely frequent the forums or the market and are totally oblivious to the fact that their information may be in the hands of the feds? What if some of his customers have criminal liabilities and this would land them back in prison? Where do I stop?
So if you were one of those people, and you're here reading what, in effect, was DPR patting BG on the back and you, Astor, rationalizing his decision as the right thing to do for potential future indiscretions, I think it would be reasonable to think that DPR, you and others have lost sight of what actually just happened. That the screw up that has affected you, right here, right now, is being used to benefit some potential future victim(s). In what fucking world does that make sense?
DPR should have come down HARD on BG, like Old Testament Yahweh hard, for breaking his primary duty and responsibility to his customers. And he should have left it to those people, whose trust he betrayed, to forgive him and embrace him back into the community under another vendor account. It's not his place to 'forgive' by sending him on his way with a pat on his back when it wasn't him that was potentially affected in such a fucked up way.
If you read what I wrote in the other thread you will understand that I agree with what you say here completely on the formal side but there is a caveat, and it is this:
- BG would be anyway free to come with another anonymous alter-ego anyway. You cannot really ban a person definitely here, so there's no even point on trying when the situation doesn't warrant it.
- This is a "one of a kind" situation because BG is a very respected member of this community and there was no malice behind the keeping of the addresses. When these things happened in the past it always happened the contrary and the vendor(s) doing it always kept shout about the issue until it came out or even worse threatened buyers with the info. For this DPR gave a chance to BG, to evidence the side of honesty and dignity of the individual so that others can understand how you should (and shouldn't, for what it concerns the purely "vending" side) behave in a situation like this and have a precedent. Yes, BG is not certainly an hero for what he did and every person with some dignity and honor should do otherwise but anyway since this is the first time a thing as this (with this particular occurrence) happened DPR sort of created a precedent of what you shouldn't along what you should do. What you shouldn't is about the vending part, what you should do is about the individual (the dignity and honesty, in little words the moral aspect) part.
- There's nothing you can do about the "keeping of the addresses" anyway at this point, so a permanent ban to BG will really change nothing on the issue (other vendors doing the same have been banned outright because they wanted to use the addresses to threaten the buyers); since BG has anyway always been a vendor in very good standing and always treating his/her customers to the utmost of his capability a permanent ban for a single fuck-up (even if a great one) would be excessive considering the points above. It would change nothing for the buyers and nothing for the market itself. Would it make an example of what you get by keeping addresses so that others would have fear of doing it in the future? A vendor should already know the consequences because the worst part is not breaking the rules but putting your customers' security at risk and on this point only your mentality can really make a difference. Breaking the rules is nothing in comparison to this aspect of the issue, and there's no deterrent there that will work apart your conscience.
- As for YHWH, the way that particular God behaved it is why He is considered the most blood loving and piece of shit God in all religion literature. If there is the epitome of a piece of shit loving blood, slavery, rape, homicide and general submissive behavior just out of fear that's YHWH, and I really hope DPR will NEVER follow that route.
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All you are doing essentially is taking away his original account name. And for what? I get what he did, I understand your position 100% and I happen to agree with it. I just do not understand at all you taking away his account. It seems silly.
I think the rationale behind this particular "punishment" is on the fact of losing all your feedback and privileges you obtained in this time frame with your hard work. BG has to start from beginning having all the work done since now reset (and even some customers would naturally be dubious no matter what of buying from him because of what happened). It's true that DPR is encouraging people to work with BG anew, but still losing all your feedback and status you acquired is anyway a sure blow to your vendor capabilities and everyone knows this.
Going from being a top 5% vendor with more than 500 transactions and full feedback (I'm making up numbers here because I don't know personally what it was the status of BG before the demotion, I'm just making an example) to become a newbie with no history is surely not a nice thing for a vendor, no matter what.
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Yeah on one hand they did the right thing and on the other they screwed up royally but where is the incentive to NOT do this ever again? How can BG help prevent others from doing this in the future? Some more thinking needs to be done around this I think.
This decision creates incentive for people to be honest when they have compromised the security of their customers. Then at least buyers can be aware of the threat they have been exposed to. The alternative is to swing hammers and then no one will ever admit when they fucked up.
Most rational way to look at it.
I fail to see how having your top vendor account demoted is an incentive for people to be honest.
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+1
I just want to say this is a great post and I support it completely.
Maybe I didn't express myself correctly last time but I NEVER wanted a ban (in the permanent sense) from the error of BG. When I talked about "ban" I meant a demotion, as in what DPR is doing here.
I never thought that what BG did in the way he did it deserved a definite ban, because that would have been (for the points I've explained) both too excessive and not appropriate. Still I thought that since he committed an error he should have been rightly punished for this (and this goes outside the moral part of the issue).
Probably for this you thought I was an anti-libertarian, because you thought I wanted BG to go away from this place altogether for what he did when I never wanted something like this and I would never like this to happen to anybody (apart naturally if they are pieces of shit and deserve it).
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All you are doing essentially is taking away his original account name. And for what? I get what he did, I understand your position 100% and I happen to agree with it. I just do not understand at all you taking away his account. It seems silly.
I think the rationale is on the fact that the "punishment" is on the fact of losing all your feedback and privileges you obtain in these years with your hard work. BG would have to start from beginning having all the work done since now reset. It's true that DPR is encouraging people to work with BG anew, but still losing all your feedback and status you acquired is anyway a sure blow to your vendor capabilities and everyone knows this.
Going from being a top 5% vendor with more than 500 transactions and full feedback (I'm making up numbers here because I don't know personally what it was the status of BG before the demotion, I'm just making an example) to become a newbie with no history is surely not a nice thing for a vendor, no matter what.
I understand completely what you said. And I **think** that has to be SR'S reason(s) for doing... taking.. the account name away..
But the facts are...and the truth is...that because he has the rep he does, that losing those stats is no big deal at all...I mean none. All his customers will go off what he has done in the past. And all he really loses is the feedback(and that will come right back in a little bit) and how long the account has been a vendor for...As to the the top %...let's go with your example of top 5%....that really means NOTHING......and he can recoup what ever number he was at ...within a few weeks.
The feedback, is almost the same thing...meaning he will have the same customers that he had with his old name and will for sure just mention he was xxx with xxx and that will work. He is no way at all will be treated like a new vendor.
He will not be a newbie with no history...he will be the vendor formally named xxx.
Since you are a vendor, you have to understand where I am coming from. Those "things" he loses, mean nothing. He will recoup it all very soon. And because everything is the exact same for him, he just needs to make all new listings and then list the items and he will be back to normal within a few weeks.
It would be a way better situation, if SR fines him, then suspends him for say ....30 days.That seems a lot better then to just take away his account. We all know that any vendor that loses his account can just sign back up. I realize that. But in this exact situation, DPR himself said that he hopes and assumes BG will get another account and keep vending. Just like Bruce Cambell(sp?) opened another account and kept vending.
***OFF TOPIC***
I think the issue people have is if DPR took the right action and I happen to agree with him in how he handled this situation...but I am not even talking about that in my argument above. I understand what DPR meant..and I understand that how BG handled this is a huge factor in his discipline. As he actually ratted himself out. He handled this fuck up...the best way anyone could and is clearly a stand up guy and a great vendor. BUT at the end of the day he kept addresses and this should be a black and white issue.. As Libby loves to state all the time .... a rule is a rule.
How Bruce was handled is terrible. And less then 10 days after that mess...this happens and I think that it is setting a bad precedent. And I think Bruce got fucked. Why in the world DPR made a post about how he handled this is beyond me. And the ONLY focus should be that he kept addresses!!!! The fact he handled this really good in the end, or that he ratted himself out...blah blah blah...makes NO DIFFERENCE! The fact is he kept addresses!!! THE NUMBER ONE RULE ON SR....DO NOT KEEP ADDRESSES!!! UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES!
What I do not understand is how this was a hard decision for DPR. According to everything I know...if you break a rule ....and this happens to be the number one rule!!!.....you lose your account. PERIOD. Though I agree that BG handled this at the end awesome...in the beginning ...he saved addresses and he did it for a really stupid reason. And the rule he broke and what he is getting disciplined is for keeping address. And DPR made it sound like this was a hard decision because of how BG handled this in the end. But BG was not getting disciplined for the actions at the end!
The problem lies in the fact SR takes the stance.....if you break a rule you are out. And because of that...in the last two examples we all know about,(though there have been other vendor deletions in between these two, they are just getting no press) BG and BC... silk road (DPR)... had to take the stance where he deletes both vendor accounts. And CLEARLY he had troubles doing it and in fact said so...and in both these cases he said he hopes they just get new accounts...and that is what I am talking about.
And because DPR takes this stance...why delete their accounts in the first place? I mean, I totally agree with your reasons as to what happens by them having their accounts deleted...but the truth is ...it takes less then 1 hours and they are back up...and so it just seems like a silly thing.
Fort the record...I think Bruce should never have had his account deleted. I also only know that BG kept addresses...and that is a HUGE...I mean a major NO,NO...and his reason for it...(and the fact is... there is never a reason to justify it)...was REALLY FUCKING STUPID. But I do LOVE how he acted like a professional golfer and did the honorable thing...he told on himself.
And clearly because of the way he handled it...DPR did not want to discipline him at all...but he had to. And the same go's for Bruce. And I think this community would be a lot better served if neither had their account name taken away... as this looks bad for silk road.
If you do not agree with me that a fine and 30 day account suspension would have been a lot better...then what about a fine, 30 days, and they take away all the stats and feedback and just make them re-earn it all??? That would look better for silk road. As it looks bad IMO that they take away the account, then encourage them to just rejoin under a new name.
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On a side note, it is fair to assume that MOST, if not all, vendors who have a reship policy keep names, usernames and addresses for the record. Not doing so would require a tremendous amount of trust in buyers who are claiming a reship...Since transaction history is only kept for a month or so, so many buyer can say past that time that their order didn't arrive or something.... Vendors need to ensure that such and such buyer bought from them, what and how much, and where.
So I don't really blame BG for keeping that info, but I blame him for sending it unencrypted to some third party.
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I fail to see how having your top vendor account demoted is an incentive for people to be honest.
The "incentive" part is about the fact that BG got not banned permanently (as it happened in other cases) but only had his vendor privileges removed and he is still welcome to be a member of the community.
If BG would have kept his mouth shout and the thing would have come out (and it would, sooner or later) then he would have lost all the respect of this community being permanently banned and not welcomed again and even worse he would have lost the respect of his customers so that nobody would have bought no more from him knowing who he is.
BG was to be punished for what he did, naturally, because he did commit an error as a vendor. However as an individual he has been an example of what must be done and for this DPR gave him another chance. The "incentive" is, given this, to be individuals behaving with honesty and dignity because this modus operandi is what gives the best chances even in case you can commit an error as a vendor.
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I fail to see how having your top vendor account demoted is an incentive for people to be honest.
The "incentive" part is about the fact that BG got not banned permanently (as it happened in other cases) but only had his vendor privileges removed and he is still welcome to be a member of the community.
BG was to be punished for what he did, naturally, because he did commit an error as a vendor. However as an individual he has been an example of what must be done and for this DPR gave him another chance. The "incentive" is, given this, to be individuals behaving with honesty and dignity because this modus operandi is what gives the best chances even in case you can commit an error as a vendor.
I understand and agree to most of your points, sure, BG has been a stand-up guy, but sorry Black Iris, since coming back under a different name and opening a new vendor account is possible for anyone, I still don't see where the incentive is. The only message here for other vendors is "if you're honest, you'll have the community's respect, but still, I will ruin your hard-gained top seller vendor status and you'll have to start again from scratch, so feel free to be honest".
And as I said in another thread, DPR should be more worried about trying to correct BG's mistake than to worry about his punishment: now hundreds or thousands of SR users are compromised, and if nothing is done about it (changing incriminated usernames for instance), this might result in a crackdown and subsequently, extremely bad publicity for the Road which the media will love.
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But the facts are...and the truth is...that because he has the rep he does, that losing those stats is no big deal at all...I mean none. All his customers will go off what he has done in the past. And all he really loses is the feedback and how long the account has been a vendor for...the top %...let's go with your example of 5% means NOTHING......and he can recoup what ever number he was at ...within a few weeks.
Maybe this is what DPR wants: i.e. giving a sort of formal punishment that in practical terms however it is not a punishment. Sort of like a symbolic gesture but with no repercussion in action attached to it. This btw would go hand in hand with the type of motivation that DPR gave (as of creating a sort of precedent of both what shouldn't - as a vendor - and should - as an individual - be done, i.e. a symbolic precedent going hand in hand with a symbolic punishment).
I understand what you are saying and I agree with your particular point of view, but I suspect that DPR thought about this issue for some time and he has a particular motivation to go on this route, and one particular explanation can be what I said.
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On a side note, it is fair to assume that MOST, if not all, vendors who have a reship policy keep names, usernames and addresses for the record. Not doing so would require a tremendous amount of trust in buyers who are claiming a reship...Since transaction history is only kept for a month or so, so many buyer can say past that time that their order didn't arrive or something.... Vendors need to ensure that such and such buyer bought from them, what and how much, and where.
So I don't really blame BG for keeping that info, but I blame him for sending it unencrypted to some third party.
Just asking...( I as a vendor have never offered to reship and for me it is not even something I would ever have to do. But I understand that for some vendors it is a must)
Why would a vendor that offered to reship have to keep addresses? If a vendor offers reship, I would assume that means the buyer did not receive the item. If the buyer did not receive the item, then the order was not finalized, therefore all the information is still there except for the address. So when the vendor needs to reship...all he would have to do is ask for the address again. It is that simple....correct?
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The only message here for other vendors is "if you're honest, you'll have the community's respect, but still, I will ruin your hard-gained top seller vendor status and you'll have to start again from scratch, so feel free to be honest".
I think you are not considering here what RxKing also is saying (and that I didn't consider too well at beginning myself): what you think is a "great" punishment (i.e. losing feedback and vendor status) it not really that much of an issue in practical terms. Given how BG has anyway already a solid customer base at his back and given how DPR is asking everyone to fully trust him again and help him to establish anew, the losing of the stats it is just symbolic in nature more than anything else.
It will take BG at most a month of time to recover everything he has "lost" and the thing will be soon forgotten by everybody. The only thing that will remain is the symbolic gesture and the precedent, nothing more. It is not a blow on the practical vendor capability of BG, it is just a symbolic blow all in all. He has his customer base still intact and those customers even more now know the honesty of their contact; probably many will willingly incentive the re-enter of BG and so on and so forth.
I really think, as RxKing said, that the impact on the vendor capability of BG from this punishment will be nothing to seriously worry about. He will be on his feet soon enough as if nothing did really happen.
Before I thought myself that the rationale behind the punishment could have been the impact of the vending stat and feedback removed, but pondering on what RxKing said I must admit that the punishment in practical terms is very low; so, all in all, the "punishment" here is much more of a symbolic nature and I actually think this can build a bridge on both sides:
- For the side that would want a greater punishment for the act a symbolic punishment representing a precedent for the community can seem a little thing, but sometimes a symbolic act is more powerful than a practical one and given the circumstances of the issue I think that asking for a strong punishment is not deserved. Given what happened and given the very particular circumstances (ad BG behaving completely irresponsibly on the vendor side but the opposite on the moral aspect) the nature of the issue acquires a symbolic aspect and as such a symbolic punishment is the most appropriate act.
- For the side of those that would not want BG punished they have to consider the fact that in practical terms the blow to BG and his vendor capability is really low, and so no harm has been really done to him. However a punishment is clearly deserved because he committed an error (and a grave one at that) and broke a rule as such and so, as a vendor, he must be punished for what he has done.
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On a side note, it is fair to assume that MOST, if not all, vendors who have a reship policy keep names, usernames and addresses for the record. Not doing so would require a tremendous amount of trust in buyers who are claiming a reship...Since transaction history is only kept for a month or so, so many buyer can say past that time that their order didn't arrive or something.... Vendors need to ensure that such and such buyer bought from them, what and how much, and where.
So I don't really blame BG for keeping that info, but I blame him for sending it unencrypted to some third party.
Just asking...( I as a vendor have never offered to reship and for me it is not even something I would ever have to do. But I understand that for some vendors it is a must)
Why would a vendor that offered to reship have to keep addresses? If a vendor offers reship, I would assume that means the buyer did not receive the item. If the buyer did not receive the item, then the order was not finalized, therefore all the information is still there except for the address. So when the vendor needs to reship...all he would have to do is ask for the address again. It is that simple....correct?
In theory you are correct. However, in BG's case, and in many other vendors' case who only reship to the same address, if you only reship to the same address, then you obviously need a record.
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Maybe this is what DPR wants: i.e. giving a sort of formal punishment that in practical terms however it is not a punishment.
BINGO! And that is my only point. It is nothing. And I think in fact it looks bad for SR. It is saying "hey you lose this account name..but just go sing up and give us some more money and you can vend again in 1 hour. I just cant let you keep this account name because you broke the rules, I know it is silly but if we do not take this stand it opens up a whole can of worms ..we are sorry"
Where as when the suspend another vendor for keeping addresses, they have said " if we find out you are vending again we will delete that account too"
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The only message here for other vendors is "if you're honest, you'll have the community's respect, but still, I will ruin your hard-gained top seller vendor status and you'll have to start again from scratch, so feel free to be honest".
I think you are not considering here what RxKing also is saying: what you think is a "great" punishment (i.e. losing feedback and vendor status) it not really that much of an issue in practical terms. Given how BG has anyway already a solid customer base at his back and given how DPR is asking everyone to fully trust him again and help him to establish anew, the losing of the stats it is just symbolic in nature more than anything else.
It will take BG at most a month of time to recover everything he has "lost" and the thing will be soon forgotten by everybody. The only thing that will remain is the symbolic gesture and the precedent, nothing more. It is not a blow on the practical vendor capability of BG, it is just a symbolic blow all in all. He has his customer base still intact and those customers even more now know the honesty of their contact; probably many will willingly incentive the re-enter of BG and so on and so forth.
I really think, as RxKing said, that the impact on the vendor capability of BG from this punishment will be nothing to seriously worry about. He will be on his feet soon enough as if nothing did really happen.
So we agree :)
In the end,
1) DPR punishment has not much of an impact
2) Incriminated buyers and the Silk Road are still in danger.
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In theory you are correct. However, in BG's case, and in many other vendors' case who only reship to the same address, if you only reship to the same address, then you obviously need a record.
Well then they should never say "we only reship to the same address". As that seems stupid too. So you didn't get it once...so I will reship it again to the same address. How dumb is that??? (meaning how dumb is it to SAY you only reship to same address)
Also the way you say it means that somehow they must offer to reship only to same address. Well we have just exposed how doing so, would force a vendor to keep addresses, and they can not do that. And since it is impossible to remember if the new address is the same address, and you can not keep addresses, it shows everyone how dumb it is to offer reship only to same address!
So common sense says that if you want to offer reship...you never say only to same address! PERIOD!
In theory...I am 100% right.
Also BI....I totally know you are just giving me the info and giving me counter points to my points..Thanks btw :)...and I hope you can see where I am coming from.
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I think you are not considering here what RxKing also is saying (and that I didn't consider too well at beginning myself): what you think is a "great" punishment (i.e. losing feedback and vendor status) it not really that much of an issue in practical terms. Given how BG has anyway already a solid customer base at his back and given how DPR is asking everyone to fully trust him again and help him to establish anew, the losing of the stats it is just symbolic in nature more than anything else.
DING DING DING DING!!! EXACTLY!!!!
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BINGO! And that is my only point. It is nothing.
It is nothing in practical terms but in symbolic terms it is instead an important punishment because of the motivation and the rationale behind it.
Think about it: good punishments are not necessarily only factual in nature, sometimes a symbolic punishment is called for instead given the nature of the issue. Given the fact that DPR clearly wanted to evidence the symbolic aspect of the issue (as in what shouldn't be done as a vendor but what should be done as an individual) and given that anyway now the thing is done and factually punishing BG or not will not change anything on what happened - a symbolic punishment imo is appropriate.
Naturally there will be people that will disagree and people that will agree, and that's how things must be because anyway every decision you will take, of whatever nature it may be and no matter what, will have sides agreeing and sides not agreeing.
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In theory you are correct. However, in BG's case, and in many other vendors' case who only reship to the same address, if you only reship to the same address, then you obviously need a record.
Well then they should never say "we only reship to the same address". As that seems stupid too. So you didn't get it once...so I will reship it again to the same address. How dumb is that??? (meaning how dumb is it to SAY you only reship to same address)
Also the way you say it means that somehow they must offer to reship only to same address. Well we have just exposed how doing so, would force a vendor to keep addresses, and they can not do that. And since it is impossible to remember if the new address is the same address, and you can not keep addresses, it shows everyone how dumb it is to offer reship only to same address!
So common sense says that if you want to offer reship...you never say only to same address! PERIOD!
In theory...I am 100% right.
Yeah, maybe my above post left the impression that I thought that requiring the same address was a smart idea, but I agree with you that it's not. You should tell that to BG and other vendors. Let's see if BG changes that in his future career and let's take it as a lesson learned: if a vendor only reships to the same address, it is fair to assume that he's keeping your address somewhere.
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2) Incriminated buyers and the Silk Road are still in danger.
And giving an hard punishment to BG for what he did (not considering at all the other part, the individual aspect) will change this someway?
At this point what will it change on the issue by for example banning BG permanently? Nothing. The security of those buyers is already compromised and banning or not banning BG will change nothing on it.
What it can change is only on the moral aspect of the occurrence and since BG there behaved correctly it's good at this point to make a symbolic stand out of this matter so that there is a precedent both for the bad part and both for the good one (with their respective specifics).
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@BlackIris
I'm glad we can put our comedy spat to rest, I misunderstood you and you're clearly closer to my kind of thinking that I had thought.
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2) Incriminated buyers and the Silk Road are still in danger.
And giving an hard punishment to BG for what he did (not considering at all the other part, the individual aspect) will change this someway?
At this point what it will change to for example ban BG permanently on the issue? Nothing. The security of those buyers is already compromised and banning or not banning BG will change nothing on it.
What it can change is only on the moral aspect of the issue and since BG there behaved correctly it's good at this point to make a symbolic stand out of this matter so that there is a precedent both on the bad part and both on the good one.
Bro, I'm not saying and I've never said that DPR should go hard on BG, I'm just saying that instead of worrying about how to punish BG, the community & DPR should be more worried about what to do with the leaked data, that is, as I suggested, changing usernames of incriminated buyers. On the latest news, DPR said it was not really possible (I?m sure it is, it would just require a few weeks of annoying work) and on the other hand, it was not "in their policy to do so", which is absolutely unintelligible for someone so cautious about safety and the community's future such as DPR.
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@ CHILL AND BLUE
+1 to both of you for the conversation! I enjoyed it...I am done with this thread...My point has been made :)
Also chil, I didn't get the impression that YOU thought it was smart..I got the impression that you pointing out there stupid policy (that we exposed as 100% dumb) of only reshipping to the same address is/was somehow a SR rule/policy...when in fact... it is just something those vendors made up. When I first read what you said about reship to same address only.....it read to me that you were pointing out "rule/policy" of SR...when in fact you were just stating what "they" (the vendors that say/do this) were doing.
You should tell that to BG and other vendors
I do not know the vendors that offer this, I would not even know how to find that out besides going to every vendor profile..and I would never do that. Also if they can not figure this out on there own..I really can not help them.This is such a simple rule to follow(not keeping addresses) I actually think any vendor that does it..should be banned for being stupid. Because this is something that is not an option for the buyer to except or decline. Such as using a vendor that does not use PGP, as a buyer you understand that BEFORE you place an order and it is your freedom of choice to use them or not. If a vendor keeps addresses then he is a huge liability to all his buyers and to SR.
I am done with this thread boys..thanks for all the post with me... You BOTH were great as usual...i'm out.
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Bro, I'm not saying and I've never said that DPR should go hard on BG, I'm just saying that instead of worrying about how to punish BG, the community & DPR should be more worried about what to do with the leaked data, that is, as I suggested, changing usernames of incriminated buyers. On the latest news, DPR said it was not really possible (I?m sure it is, it would just require a few weeks of annoying work) and on the other hand, it was not "in their policy to do so", which is absolutely unintelligible for someone so cautious about safety and the community's future such as DPR.
Ok, I agree in part with this but still a punishment must be adopted because BG as a vendor has clearly broken a rule he willingly adhered to when joining and he also put his customers' security at risk on doing what he did as a vendor. So, as a vendor, he certainly must be punished for the error he committed. For this I think this sort of punishment is appropriate because it harms the vendor "external" aspect of BG (in his vendor alter-ego) without however harming BG as an individual (that's where he has actually done no wrong and actually acted well).
As for what you are saying about taking steps for the leaked data etc. on that I agree completely but sadly I don't know if there's much to do about it apart for the individuals involved taking personal precautions and steps to prevent possible harm as much as they are able to. They must prepare for the worst hoping for the best; but what can SR do about the issue? You say changing usernames but if LE has full addresses and names what changing an username will provide? An username can provide linkability with an individual but if they already know the individual and where s/he lives and that s/he bought drugs why they should care about the username they used?
But we can naturally discuss better about this in another thread, and probably it would be appropriate to do it at this point and I can agree.
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I'm glad we can put our comedy spat to rest, I misunderstood you and you're clearly closer to my kind of thinking that I had thought.
I'm glad too we have put the thing to rest and understood ourselves. Sadly english is not my mother language and sometimes the particulars of the things I express can not be exactly what I would like them to mean in the specific with all the subtleties. This is even more a burden for myself because in my mother language I'm a perfectionist and I'm always tied to the details of words and subtle meaning and with english it is not possible for me to do it at this point but given my propensity on doing it the outcome can become a mess.
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So if he felt the need to keep this info why not keep it in a document file on an encrypted hard drive? I am not buying this story of it being in his tormail, unencrypted, for people to see. This is a complete bullshit story. Sounds like he sold his list to someone and emailed it without encrypting it, which is moronic, and then panicked when he found out tormail was compromised. You are being far too lenient and it makes me very angry that the staff here thinks buyers are sub 100 IQ morons that will buy whatever line of bullshit they hand out. Gee thanks for being honest that you saved my address in your tormail and the FBI got it. That makes it all better. But you'll try harder next time, you promise right? Laughable... The first time I had a problem with a vendor, Walmart, he flat out admitted he had saved my address and I reported him twice with no response and he is still vending here. I don't believe for a second you give a shit about safety here.
Brethren,
I intend to make formal response in this thread soon. For now I am just receiving it all while of course dealing with the practical necessities that have arisen as a consequence.
I do need to respond to this post immediately however - not to defend my actions, or to diminish the potential effects for all those involved - but to keep this dialog based in truth.
I fucked up, in the most royal way that someone in this business can, and I have no delusions about that. I am also prepared to take all the consequences that flow from this.
But I have been honest in all my communications about this and I want to keep this conversation in that mode. So to address AbuNazir's comments:
1. I did keep the info - and it was ALWAYS stored encrypted on a hidden volume. It was wrong to keep the information but I did not store it casually. It was only unencrypted while being worked on.
2. The reason it was on Tormail when it was compromised is as follows:
a) My assistant was meant to email me the day's orders. Tormail to tormail as a PGP file (both email accounts not associated with BlueGiraffe).
b) For some reason PGP was refusing to encrypt the document (it required a re-install later).
c) In light of that, she decided to send it another way that she believed was safe, and so she encrypted the document using another (less secure) method. Please see kmfkewm's analysis of the encryption used on it here: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=196608.msg1426619#msg1426619
(I originally believed that the encryption used was even weaker than kmfkewm has suggested, which is why I chose to treat it "as compromised" without questioning - and thus issuing the advisory urgently to protect my clients.)
d) Additionally, she made the (horrendous) mistake of encrypting the entire shipping history document, rather than making a separate file with just the day's entries, and she mailed that.
e) Tormail went down very shortly after that with the document still on its servers.
The infinitely bizarre timing of the related incidents - PGP failing, the decision to encrypt differently, sending ALL the data by mistake and Tormail being compromised, all happening within a number of hours has a divinely diabolical quality to it. And yet it happened.
3. I would NEVER share my client information nor sell it for ANY amount of money to anyone at all. I have more integrity than that, and I of course know that any buyer could be an adversary. That is definitely not what was going on here.
I just want to clear and correct this one issue. I am guilty as charged on everything else. And I will ultimately be guided by the collective feeling of all of you as to my next move. If I can regain my honour as part of this crew even after having fucked up to the degree that I have, then I will work very hard to honour that gesture and find my place amongst you all again. If I can not, then walking the plank has always been the noble choice that we all can make in these moments.
I will make a full response in this thread soon.
BG
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Honestly you might be right. I did to BG exactly what I would have done to someone who was caught trying to get away with the same act, except I gave my opinion on the matter. I don't think we have only two types of vendors, honest and dishonest, and that their decisions are independent of precedent. If another vendor is faced with a similar situation and sees that BG was treated fairly and even praised for the honorable part of his behavior, then they too might follow his example and come clean. If that's the case, then my forgiving rhetoric will help keep people safe. Like I said in the OP, it wasn't an easy decision and it's hard to know the best path to take, but at some point you just have to act, learn as much as you can for the next tough decision, and eventually move on.
In the words of Tony Soprano, "You have no idea what it's like to be number one." I think the appropriate actions were taken and you made the best decision you could with what you were given. Honest vendors are too few and far between around here. I've personally never ordered from BG but I have talked to him in passing here and there. I think I may have asked him why he was blue... something along those lines. But he should stick around. Again though, I may have a slightly different opinion than others since my name and address didn't get compromised.
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Honest vendors are too few and far between around here.
To be honest I would be hard-pressed to cite a vendor that I have interacted with that did not maintain a high degree of professionalism, honesty, and generosity even in many cases.
Ultimately I agree with DPR's decision. It is too often observed that making the noble decision gives moral contentedness but few real rewards. The mantra "nice guys finish last" is surely familiar to us all, and I think that in a community that focuses so much on trust and reputation, we should try our best to provide some sort of incentive for vendors to act in the best interest of their clients rather than cover their own asses.
However, while I do believe DPR made the best choice, how BG should be punished should be last on our list of priorities right now. I think it is critical that we focus on the legitimate impact of his fuck-up and act accordingly, rather than bitch at each other over how long he should sit in time out.
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I think it is critical that we focus on the legitimate impact of his fuck-up and act accordingly, rather than bitch at each other over how long he should sit in time out.
Agreed. I think for the most part though everyone of BG's customers were messaged and informed of the situation and told to clean house accordingly. So I don't know if there is anything else anyone can do at this point... except bitch at each other over how long BG should sit in timeout for.
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@ CHILL AND BLUE
+1 to both of you for the conversation! I enjoyed it..
Me too ! I'm actually glad that you and the others are being reasonable people, not contradicting each other just for the fun of it, and trying to understand what one is saying. At least that's my feeling. Sometimes these forums suck, but sometimes it feels great to be part of it.
+1 to you too !
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You say changing usernames but if LE has full addresses and names what changing an username will provide? An username can provide linkability with an individual but if they already know the individual and where s/he lives and that s/he bought drugs why they should care about the username they used?
So they won't be counting me as a controlled customer buying from possibly multiple LE vendor accounts and organize some CDs to bust me. At least they wouldn't have access to my stats if usernames are changed. That's called harm reduction.
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I think BG will recover his reputation soon, I know he is an excellent seller.
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I made the following edit to the OP:
"As is always the danger when data is retained, the data was leaked when the list of addresses was sent in clear text over tormail (edit: the addresses were sent with weak encryption, not in the clear)."
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I wish the disclosure had been a little less public. Could BG have gone to DPR first? I would rather that SR had released an announcement that didn't drop an explicit goal into the forensics peoples' lap. "HEY - IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE TO START, TRY LOOKING FOR THIS FILE."
Presumably GB still had the original file - encrypted or otherwise. The community could have been alerted to the security failure generally and each buyer affected could be contacted privately through email.
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I wish the disclosure had been a little less public. Could BG have gone to DPR first? I would rather that SR had released an announcement that didn't drop an explicit goal into the forensics peoples' lap. "HEY - IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE TO START, TRY LOOKING FOR THIS FILE."
Presumably GB still had the original file - encrypted or otherwise. The community could have been alerted to the security failure generally and each buyer affected could be contacted privately through email.
It was a considered decision...
I did go to DPR first to ask him if we could do a mass mail to all our clients using the SR system, but the capability was not there (privately was my first choice).
I knew it would take some time to individually PM all our clients, and I wanted each of them to have the information as quickly as possible so that they could take evasive action - which is why I decided to do a forum post and then begin the PM's.
There would have been mass discussion on the forums in any case I am sure...
BG
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balls shit mcgee BG i hope you come back with a proper head on your shoulders. Was looking forward to starting up a relationship with you.
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YOU FUCKING BROKE RULE NUMBER 1....NEVER SAVE PERSONAL INFORMATION...YOU FUCK....I NEVER ORDERED FROM YOU, BUT STILL, I WILL BAD FOR ALL THE PEOPLE THAT DID...
WHY DID YOU DO SUCH A STUPID STUPID STUPID THING BG.
YES, I FORGIVE YOU, BUT I'M SURE THE BUYERS WHO BOUGHT FROM YOU WILL HAVE A HARD TIME FORGIVING YOU FOR BREAKING THE CARDINAL RULE OF NEVER SAVING PERSONAL INFORMATION..
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On a side note, it is fair to assume that MOST, if not all, vendors who have a reship policy keep names, usernames and addresses for the record. Not doing so would require a tremendous amount of trust in buyers who are claiming a reship...Since transaction history is only kept for a month or so, so many buyer can say past that time that their order didn't arrive or something.... Vendors need to ensure that such and such buyer bought from them, what and how much, and where.
So I don't really blame BG for keeping that info, but I blame him for sending it unencrypted to some third party.
I'm not sure just why one would assume that; "it is fair to assume that MOST, if not all, vendors who have a reship policy keep names, usernames and addresses for the record"
We for 1 don't, because it isn't necessary.
And on a side note . . . If LE didn't know just what all was on a particular server . . they're certain to now!
NCK
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This was a very noble thing of you to do, BlueGiraffe.
While it was a "fuck up" per-say, it is clear that you care for your customers, and other people in general. So thank you for that.
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I like how DPR says hes 'allowed' to reopen a new account. As if anyone can stop anyone from opening a new account. I wander who tony76 is today?
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SR is setup in such a way as the administration does not know who the vendors are. This means that while you can demote a vendor account you cannot "ban" a vendor from coming back, any such ban would be meaningless and unenforcable.
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How about setting up a new address box for SR reships in resolution? Maybe it already exists but if we were all willing to follow the proper channels this can be a non issue. HOWEVER vendors who publish addresses on the forums out of anger need instant banning.
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The first time I had a problem with a vendor, Walmart, he flat out admitted he had saved my address and I reported him twice with no response and he is still vending here. I don't believe for a second you give a shit about safety here.
SR appears to take corrective user actions in only two cases:
1 - Blatant violation of a rule continuously happening to many buyers all at once and being reported to SR via the main site report function by many users simultaneously.
2 - Any minor violation of any rule which the user admits to in a post on a forum.
So if you want Walmart kicked you'll either have to get more people to complain about him, or trick him into posting on these forums that he still has your address and point the gestapo (Libertas) to the post.
Snitching? :-X
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Okay so now that this has blown over, have you decided what your new vendor name will be?
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& wether or not the Mescaline will return with you?
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Anyone affected by this look here > http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=201020.msg1442424#msg1442424
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http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=196608.msg1444019#msg1444019
I explain fully in the other thread but the fact that my address(s) were saved at all after making it very clear to him that I never meant to order from him to begin with(because he was overseas) is pretty damn shitty regardless of any honesty that has followed.
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I noticed this had been asked earlier but no definitive answer was given.
What is stopping you continuing using the account if you use a new name and drop? Seems like a real waste to delete an account that's got good stats (seems like a lot of you feel the same) when there's no real reason.
If someone can chime in as to why it would be much appreciated ;)
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Okay so now that this has blown over, have you decided what your new vendor name will be?
^^^this^^^
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More importantly, were is the cacti?
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.... and, moxy?
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At least he stuck his neck out and was honest about it!
..Giraffe, neck...
Terrible joke I know and haven't read through this thread so don't know if it was already used! :)
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He was an treasure to the community & forums...A very helpful friend.
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I was not involved in the address issue, however, I will be placing an order when they return.
Hurry back BlueGiraffe! Let us know your new name.
I do wish they had a tad bit better pricing than I was used to with TommyG on here (he was domestic), but product is top notch from BG for sure!
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I was not involved in the address issue, however, I will be placing an order when they return.
Hurry back BlueGiraffe! Let us know your new name.
I do wish they had a tad bit better pricing than I was used to with TommyG on here (he was domestic), but product is top notch from BG for sure!
Keep an eye out, they might have a nice sale to make up to their customers! ;)
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BlueGiraffe is one of the most professional, reliable, and QUALITY vendors on SR... it would be a damn shame not to see him down the road. I believe you made the right decision, Mr.Roberts :)
Much love to you, BG <33
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Many have been asking what the status of our "new" vending account is.
Firstly, thank you for that vote of confidence, and for your support. And thank you DPR for the mature, considered and gracious way you dealt with this. I feel honored to work in the space you have created, and I have much respect for your judgement and moral wisdom.
This is an interim announcement just to put everyone in the picture for now.
Although none of our own information (nor our account) was compromised at all, we have none-the-less done what is wise to do in these kinds of moments; we have dismantled, cleaned, wiped, changed, closed and moved everything - lab, shipping facility, staff, computers, bank and Bitcoin accounts. Everything has been moved to new locations, and it has been a major exercise - but we feel a necessary and important one.
There is no rush to create a new account immediately, as there is still much to consider about this business. What has just happened is on a life-changing scale, and as a professional of many years, has given me major pause and a need for serious re-evaluation.
I can say with some certainty that once our lab and shipping facility has been fully re set up (different country altogether) and our security protocols thoroughly re-built from the ground up, the good stuff will flow again.
We recognize the real need for high quality pharmaceutical GHB to be available in the world, and so feel a sacred obligation to make sure that continues happening.
However, we have also seen (in a more stark light than ever before) the potential for serious consequence - and our clients being put at risk, as what has just happened, is simply not acceptable. So everything must change, and be done better.
Thus far no heat as come to any of our clients (that we have heard off) - and we are very happy for that. (If any kind of situation does happen with anyone please report it here so that all may be informed.)
So please be patient, our GHB will definitely flow again, and hopefully within a few weeks at most. Whether I will be personally involved is still a question - and one to be considered very carefully.
Blessings to your all,
BlueGiraffe
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-
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Many have been asking what the status of our "new" vending account is.
Firstly, thank you for that vote of confidence, and for your support. And thank you DPR for the mature, considered and gracious way you dealt with this. I feel honored to work in the space you have created, and I have much respect for your judgement and moral wisdom.
This is an interim announcement just to put everyone in the picture for now.
Although none of our own information (nor our account) was compromised at all, we have none-the-less done what is wise to do in these kinds of moments; we have dismantled, cleaned, wiped, changed, closed and moved everything - lab, shipping facility, staff, computers, bank and Bitcoin accounts. Everything has been moved to new locations, and it has been a major exercise - but we feel a necessary and important one.
There is no rush to create a new account immediately, as there is still much to consider about this business. What has just happened is on a life-changing scale, and as a professional of many years, has given me major pause and a need for serious re-evaluation.
I can say with some certainty that once our lab and shipping facility has been fully re set up (different country altogether) and our security protocols thoroughly re-built from the ground up, the good stuff will flow again.
We recognize the real need for high quality pharmaceutical GHB to be available in the world, and so feel a sacred obligation to make sure that continues happening.
However, we have also seen (in a more stark light than ever before) the potential for serious consequence - and our clients being put at risk, as what has just happened, is simply not acceptable. So everything must change, and be done better.
Thus far no heat as come to any of our clients (that we have heard off) - and we are very happy for that. (If any kind of situation does happen with anyone please report it here so that all may be informed.)
So please be patient, our GHB will definitely flow again, and hopefully within a few weeks at most. Whether I will be personally involved is still a question - and one to be considered very carefully.
Blessings to your all,
BlueGiraffe
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Thanks so much for the update, BG. I will be happily waiting for your return in its due time.
Keep doing what you do and taking care of what needs to be done.
All the best :)
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HURRY ! Patiently waiting for your return. Or take your time. Or hurry. But yeah.....hurry. Or something.
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HURRY ! Patiently waiting for your return. Or take your time. Or hurry. But yeah.....hurry. Or something.
:)
There will be an announcement within the week...
BG
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Well, I've read through all 7 pages of this tome and I have a few comments from a buyer's perspective. We're fucked. That's right. As buyers on the Road, we're fucked. You know why? If a pro like BG was doing this, how many others are too. And how long is it going to be before LE starts to really apply the pressure here. Me? I think it's coming real soon. A concerted effort to blow up the darknet is underway right now. It's been a nice run but I'm out. I wish you all the best.
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They're not blowing up the darknet because BG was flogging a bit of GHB.
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YESSSS more BG goodness :D
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I've had to make many hard decisions in my time as DPR, and this is one of the hardest.
A few days ago, the vendor known as BlueGiraffe (BG) came to me and confessed that he had been saving the addresses of his customers. He said he did this for convenience when reships were in order. As is always the danger when data is retained, the data was leaked when the list of addresses was sent in clear text over tormail. We are now fairly certain that tormail has been compromised and BG has done the right thing and warned all of his customers of the data leak.
On the one hand, BG committed a cardinal sin as a vendor that has always led to loss of vending privileges in the past. However, it was not done in malice and he did his best to minimize the damage as soon as he knew what happened. He put his customers ahead of himself in the end, and did so admirably. Part of his behavior must be punished, and the other part should not be and should even be encouraged.
I've decided to take the following action: The BlueGiraffe vendor account will stay demoted. It's official record and reputation will end. However, within the community, BG's good actions will not be forgotten and he will be allowed and even encouraged to open a new vendor account and continue serving the Silk Road community. I think we can all see how sincerely sorry he is for what he did and trust him never to breach his vendor contract again. I encourage his customers to give him a second chance and buy from whatever new account he sets up to help him get back to good standing as a top vendor on SR.
BG has set an excellent example of what to do and what not to do and I thank him for his contribution. I have no doubt that his reputation will quickly be restored and that his loss of business as he starts over with a new account will be adequate punishment, but not too severe.
It would be nice to hear from BG regarding this decision and to hear what we can expect from him going forward along with the name of his new account if he chooses to set one up.
Yes, I think this is totally fair. I look forward to finding out what the new vendor account will be. :)
Thanks DPR and thanks BG for being so up front. These are the kinds of vendors SR needs, and this is what really makes the community what it is.
If your name and address were one that were vulnerable to LE, would you still say that "These are the kinds of vendors SR needs?" It's good he came forward but I dont think he should be getting any praise.
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To above, you can have your opinion. I'm sure many will agree, and likely those affected may thoroughly....
OR
they might recognize what many do: Mistakes mean you're growing. And apparently they did enough upstanding work to warrant praise. They were not asking for it. They gained it by others perception of merit.
So, there you go.
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So basically what you're saying is there's no repercussions for breaking the rules? I understand he loses his vendor account, but like someone else said earlier, he can easily regain the feedback. He should have to refund all the people who were affected. I'm sure any person that gives a fuck would of gone to you about this, because with a clean conscience most people couldn't keep quiet and know they fucked 100's of people that trusted them over.
Whoever else that is out there doing stuff like this, STOP being fucking greedy. You're already getting rich off this site, there's no need to put 100's of peoples lives in jeporady (people that trust you, and are paying customers) because you want to take 10-15 minutes off your day. You have one of the easiest jobs in the world, you're literally getting paid to sit at your house and send shit to people in the mail with practically no additional risks to drug dealing in person.
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While I've never had any interaction at all with BG, I've seen the name around in the forums and from much of what I've read throughout this thread, BG was a well liked and trusted vendor. As well as I don't really know what all it must take to be DPR, I'm sure it's a huge responsibility that carries many risks as well as there must be many, many decisions on a wide variety of issues that must be made and be made as fairly to everyone as possible. So, with my lack of personal knowledge of anyone involved (if I know some who were possibly affected as customers, I don't know who they are... but that's neither here nor there), I suppose DPR made the decision he felt was the most fair thing to do and probably also knowing that in any community, no leader can please every member with any decision.
I'm actually replying here though because of the issue brought up in general - vendors possibly not disposing of buyer's personal info immediately upon sending the item. While I've made several transactions here, all which have gone very smoothly afaik, still, every time I place an order and send the vendor my encrypted details, I never have entirely shaken the nagging concern that I don't know if they have really gotten rid of the info that I send them or not. Some vendors state on their vendor page that they delete the info upon shipping, some don't meniton it at all. But it doesn't really matter if the say they dispose of the personal info or not as the buyer really has no way of knowing what they really do or don't do, and it seems as if the buyer is really put at risk this way while the vendor needs to disclose no personal details to the buyer nor do they have to or even probably have a way to prove absolutely that they have indeed disposed of the buyers info.
I don't know if there is a solution to this. If there is, I sure can't think of one. But... maybe someone else can?
Anyway, the only other thing I have to say on this is that DPR said that BG said he kept the customer's info for convenience for re-orders. This I don't understand as being any reason to put the buyer(s) and even the vendor (by way of if ever investigated and having a bunch of shipping addresses in their possession) at risk. I've ordered from various vendors and sent (as is mandatory to get through the order form anyway) the necessary info with the order, and so far, none have seemed to have been delayed by getting the correct info from the order form and the item shipped off. So, why would or should a vendor even consider keeping any customer's details "for convenience" when any customer (including repeat customers) still have to go through the ordering process and that includes sending their info through with the order form?
Now please remember that I'm not a vendor nor have I ever been an online vendor, so I'm sure it's possible that there are aspects of this that I don't see as being strictly a customer and if I've overlooked a good reason for a vendor (not speaking in particular of any vendor including BG) to keep the buyer info if they keep it in a very secure place, please understand that I only overlook what I can't see in the first place....
That's all... I just hope that there are some sort of underlying precautionary measures in place to keep SR as safe as possible for buyers and sellers alike.
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So has it been determined how long bluegiraffe should wait before starting a new vendor account? Shouldn't they have to wait a period of time before restarting? We should wait and see what the fallout from this is. Let's not forget they also compromised another vendor. I agree with the punishment. There is no point in banning them indefinitely because they could just start up on a different market. What's done is done. It was incredibly foolish but there is nothing that can be done now. I would suggest that anybody who bought off bluegiraffe lay low for a while.
What other vendor did they compromise?
ACE
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So basically what you're saying is there's no repercussions for breaking the rules? I understand he loses his vendor account, but like someone else said earlier, he can easily regain the feedback. He should have to refund all the people who were affected. I'm sure any person that gives a fuck would of gone to you about this, because with a clean conscience most people couldn't keep quiet and know they fucked 100's of people that trusted them over.
Whoever else that is out there doing stuff like this, STOP being fucking greedy. You're already getting rich off this site, there's no need to put 100's of peoples lives in jeporady (people that trust you, and are paying customers) because you want to take 10-15 minutes off your day. You have one of the easiest jobs in the world, you're literally getting paid to sit at your house and send shit to people in the mail with practically no additional risks to drug dealing in person.
Are you RETARDED? Easiest job in the world? Driving through customs controls at european ports with kilos of hash in the car? Working weeks with only a few hours sleep collecting opium in tick infested, heavily guarded fields, dragging yourself across the floor cutting poppies one by one? Meticulously prepping hundreds of packages a week, checking and double checking everything from hairs in the packages, to marks on the package, to leaks in the mylar, all whilst keeping up your forum presence and answering every one of the 100+ messages that come in a day?
Its not easy, easy is what I did before selling in bars. This is hard, very very hard. You stress every time anything under a 4/5 comes in, you stress every time you hear sirens down the street, you stress every time the customs agent spends longer than a second before handing back your fake papers, you stress every time you read about the next big thing to be hacked / DOS´ed / fucked up.
Your entire life depends on BTC fluctuations and the whims of Pharma companies and law makers.
Its not easy, easy is getting up at 7 am, traveling to work and doing something legal.
This is stressful, risky and very very dangerous. And we do it all so YOU can do the EASY bit, which is sit on your comfy sofa and have the government deliver your drugs to you. All so that you don´t have to go to the ghettos and risk getting shanked because you said something without thinking.
ACE
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So basically what you're saying is there's no repercussions for breaking the rules? I understand he loses his vendor account, but like someone else said earlier, he can easily regain the feedback. He should have to refund all the people who were affected. I'm sure any person that gives a fuck would of gone to you about this, because with a clean conscience most people couldn't keep quiet and know they fucked 100's of people that trusted them over.
Whoever else that is out there doing stuff like this, STOP being fucking greedy. You're already getting rich off this site, there's no need to put 100's of peoples lives in jeporady (people that trust you, and are paying customers) because you want to take 10-15 minutes off your day. You have one of the easiest jobs in the world, you're literally getting paid to sit at your house and send shit to people in the mail with practically no additional risks to drug dealing in person.
Are you RETARDED? Easiest job in the world? Driving through customs controls at european ports with kilos of hash in the car? Working weeks with only a few hours sleep collecting opium in tick infested, heavily guarded fields, dragging yourself across the floor cutting poppies one by one? Meticulously prepping hundreds of packages a week, checking and double checking everything from hairs in the packages, to marks on the package, to leaks in the mylar, all whilst keeping up your forum presence and answering every one of the 100+ messages that come in a day?
Its not easy, easy is what I did before selling in bars. This is hard, very very hard. You stress every time anything under a 4/5 comes in, you stress every time you hear sirens down the street, you stress every time the customs agent spends longer than a second before handing back your fake papers, you stress every time you read about the next big thing to be hacked / DOS´ed / fucked up.
Your entire life depends on BTC fluctuations and the whims of Pharma companies and law makers.
Its not easy, easy is getting up at 7 am, traveling to work and doing something legal.
This is stressful, risky and very very dangerous. And we do it all so YOU can do the EASY bit, which is sit on your comfy sofa and have the government deliver your drugs to you. All so that you don´t have to go to the ghettos and risk getting shanked because you said something without thinking.
ACE
I'm positive that most of the people that sell on here don't do that. For the people that do, why would you work by yourself anyway? Have you ever heard of drug runners? And for the money that people make here every year, you shouldn't have a problem with working with one or two people. I'm sure as hell if it were easy as getting up at 7am and going to a 9-5 job you'd be doing that instead.
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Although I have personally retired from involvement in this business, the flow of highest quality GHB powder was just about to be restored (within the next couple of days) on SR through a team of highly professional people who's integrity I absolutely vouch for.
In light of what has just happened, all is being reviewed and alternate plans are being considered. In the meantime feel free to engage or do business here: temporary-giraffe@safe-mail.net (only PGP communication please).
Sheep and BMR are being looked at, though neither is ideal. Once there is clarity on the way forward, an announcement will be made here if the forums are still up.
Be safe everyone - what is right and true will always prevail - and our adversaries are simply here as our agents of growth. Used with awareness they help us hone the integrity and clarity of our spirits. It's all good...
BG
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