Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: P2P on May 31, 2013, 06:32 pm
-
This is not a complaint or a request to increase vendor admission to some ridiculously high number (I already believe it is way too high. 150 was fine, in my opinion), but it is a wake-up call to all vendors out there. This is mostly addressed at the newcomers who are planning on being vendors, as well as any currently operating vendors who think they have everything under control just because they are successfully operating, presently. I am not a preacher, nor do I feel any sort of superiority over any member of this board, vendor or not. I do, however, feel a sense of obligation as a member of this board (long before most here today), to hopefully stop a new vendor (or future vendor) from destroying himself. I'm sure most don't care, and would rather see the ignorant behind bars, but I do not believe this is conducive to our furtherance as a community and as a marketplace. There will always be new individuals coming in every day; a lot of them will decide to be vendors. Eventually, all the vendors currently here will retire and will be replaced by a batch of newer, less-experienced ones (it's already happened a few times over the course of Silkroad's very brief existence).
We need to make sure these individuals are top-notch in their abilities to provide for the road. Therefore, I would ask that we implement a written test for all vendors, explaining their motives, what their prices will be, how they plan to obtain/manufacture, package, ship, launder money, carry out customer service, maintain the security of buyers, and maintain their own security technologically and otherwise. After a formal review by the administration, it would be decided whether or not the individual in question is prepared to vend on SR. Not only would this guarantee the competence of a capable vendor and remove the possibility of an inexperienced individual donning the vendor name, but it would also prevent scams as well. In addition, this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page anyway, so after all is said and done it would be a simple copy+paste job. You'd get the vendor started with a solid page full of information of how they plan to best serve the road, and you would confirm their legitimacy as a competent distributor.
I believe if we do not implement such a system, or a modified/similar version, SR itself will be directly contributing to the downfall of these individuals (and therefore putting its members at risk) by doing nothing about their ignorance. The fact that any fool can log on and immediately start vending just because they have $500 in their hand does not reflect the silkroad community's diligent attitude toward security. These individuals could have no idea how to package, how to ship anonymously, how to launder their money so as to avoid prosecution (and therefore seizure of data that could lead back to SR buyers), how to provide themselves with technological security so as to remain anonymous, they could be dealing excessively in their own local markets, and the list goes on. A vendor like this could even end up with positive feedback in certain cases, provided the packaging is not terrible and the shipping time is good. But these individuals, behind the scenes, could have no idea what they're doing in several of the many facets of what is required to be a competent vendor. This is evidenced by questions certain vendors will ask around the forums. And this is not to say a vendor asking questions is a negative thing, but if they are asking questions that directly apply to basic vending skills (while they are actively vending), this is definitely a problem.
An SR vendor needs to be one of the most trusted and competent individuals we have, because we literally have to trust them with our freedom. Any individual who cannot be trusted absolutely with this responsibility, should not be a vendor. And those who can be need to have their competence confirmed through testing or other similar means.
-
I understand what you are saying and I am going to remain neutral on the subject but I would like to say that it would be a horrible idea for a vendor to provide how they are going to obtain/manufacture, package, ship and launder money on their vendor profile for the world, including law enforcement, to see. I also believe that a $500 bond is far too small but that is just my opinion.
-
I wouldn't mind if it went to a grand tbh.
-
I understand what you are saying and I am going to remain neutral on the subject but I would like to say that it would be a horrible idea for a vendor to provide how they are going to obtain/manufacture, package, ship and launder money on their vendor profile for the world, including law enforcement, to see. I also believe that a $500 bond is far too small but that is just my opinion.
I think OP meant that the potential vendor would explain this to DPR and co. not put it on his page for the world to see.
I like the idea, make it harder even if it is just one thing at a time gradually that would help i believe.
-
I understand what you are saying and I am going to remain neutral on the subject but I would like to say that it would be a horrible idea for a vendor to provide how they are going to obtain/manufacture, package, ship and launder money on their vendor profile for the world, including law enforcement, to see. I also believe that a $500 bond is far too small but that is just my opinion.
I think OP meant that the potential vendor would explain this to DPR and co. not put it on his page for the world to see.
I like the idea, make it harder even if it is just one thing at a time gradually that would help i believe.
Therefore, I would ask that we implement a written test for all vendors, explaining their motives, what their prices will be, how they plan to obtain/manufacture, package, ship, launder money, carry out customer service, maintain the security of buyers, and maintain their own security technologically and otherwise. After a formal review by the administration, it would be decided whether or not the individual in question is prepared to vend on SR. Not only would this guarantee the competence of a capable vendor and remove the possibility of an inexperienced individual donning the vendor name, but it would also prevent scams as well. In addition, this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page anyway, so after all is said and done it would be a simple copy+paste job.
In addition, this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page anyway, so after all is said and done it would be a simple copy+paste job.
In addition, this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page anyway
this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page anyway
this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page
information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page
vendor SHOULD provide on their front page
on their front page
front page
-
But don't we want more vendors on here? That means more competition. Competition should help to lower prices and improve the quality of service you get from a vendor.
If you keep the barriers low, of course some bad vendors are going to get in sometimes, but they should get weeded out of the market by bad reviews or not having the right price.
Maybe if the requirements to get the bond back were tougher, it would encourage better vending, but I don't think that really solves any problems.
-
I understand what you are saying and I am going to remain neutral on the subject but I would like to say that it would be a horrible idea for a vendor to provide how they are going to obtain/manufacture, package, ship and launder money on their vendor profile for the world, including law enforcement, to see. I also believe that a $500 bond is far too small but that is just my opinion.
I think OP meant that the potential vendor would explain this to DPR and co. not put it on his page for the world to see.
I like the idea, make it harder even if it is just one thing at a time gradually that would help i believe.
Therefore, I would ask that we implement a written test for all vendors, explaining their motives, what their prices will be, how they plan to obtain/manufacture, package, ship, launder money, carry out customer service, maintain the security of buyers, and maintain their own security technologically and otherwise. After a formal review by the administration, it would be decided whether or not the individual in question is prepared to vend on SR. Not only would this guarantee the competence of a capable vendor and remove the possibility of an inexperienced individual donning the vendor name, but it would also prevent scams as well. In addition, this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page anyway, so after all is said and done it would be a simple copy+paste job.
In addition, this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page anyway, so after all is said and done it would be a simple copy+paste job.
In addition, this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page anyway
this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page anyway
this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page
information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page
vendor SHOULD provide on their front page
on their front page
front page
Lol Jack N Hoff, okay i skimmed-didnt read it all, haha! Okay and now take my idea into consideration that only DPR should be trusted with the vendors business plan and not have to have it posted on the main page.
DPR could read the potential vendors business plan and decide if they seem legit, but not post it on their page (unless they want to) for the entire world to see.
-
This wasn't meant to be a proposal, per say, but rather a call to action on the part of the administration. Any details that need refining could be ironed out, but I do think this would weed out any vendors BEFORE they ever would get a chance to touch the market. Yes, the market can do that itself over time. However, the amount of time is not always constant. Certain vendors can last a very long time doing the WRONG things, i.e. vendors who cash out to bank accounts in their name with no justified income or to prepaid cards with their name and SSN on them, or those that ship RC's that a drug dog would not pick up on and therefore don't bother to use foil or MBBs, or those that use kiosk-printed postage and are unaware their picture is being snapped by USPS every time they print. Vendors NEED to be aware of these kinds of things - everything, really - before they ever even think about starting a vendor account. Why allow them to destroy themselves just because of ignorance? Educate them; and if they don't want to be educated, don't give them any responsibilities to screw up. This plan is mainly to prevent vendors from destroying themselves and others, before they do something stupid at the start of their vending career. A lot of vendors rush in and start selling due to the enticing nature of the quick profits that can be made, and they don't take the time to take care all of the research that needs to be done. Then, they make mistakes. THEN they start to learn. But those mistakes can be in the form of electronic records that will never go away, and the vendor will always be vulnerable. The idea here is to prepare these men and women for what they are going to be facing - basic training, if you will, before going on the front lines where the consequences of ignorance is the loss of one's most basic freedoms, and imprisonment.
-
Just my 2 cents- giving one person (DPR) the knowledge of a few hundred people's criminal activities makes them a bigger liability. That would mean that DPR has approved all sales activity thru his site - right now its automated for a reason. DPR owns a website and its anonymous and doesn't control the content, posts or what is sold. Putting the liability in his hands is probably one legal aspect he doesn't want to take - and I as a vendor would feel greatly vulnerable knowing one person had this much information (power).
-
This is not a complaint or a request to increase vendor admission to some ridiculously high number (I already believe it is way too high. 150 was fine, in my opinion), but it is a wake-up call to all vendors out there. This is mostly addressed at the newcomers who are planning on being vendors, as well as any currently operating vendors who think they have everything under control just because they are successfully operating, presently. I am not a preacher, nor do I feel any sort of superiority over any member of this board, vendor or not. I do, however, feel a sense of obligation as a member of this board (long before most here today), to hopefully stop a new vendor (or future vendor) from destroying himself. I'm sure most don't care, and would rather see the ignorant behind bars, but I do not believe this is conducive to our furtherance as a community and as a marketplace. There will always be new individuals coming in every day; a lot of them will decide to be vendors. Eventually, all the vendors currently here will retire and will be replaced by a batch of newer, less-experienced ones (it's already happened a few times over the course of Silkroad's very brief existence).
We need to make sure these individuals are top-notch in their abilities to provide for the road. Therefore, I would ask that we implement a written test for all vendors, explaining their motives, what their prices will be, how they plan to obtain/manufacture, package, ship, launder money, carry out customer service, maintain the security of buyers, and maintain their own security technologically and otherwise. After a formal review by the administration, it would be decided whether or not the individual in question is prepared to vend on SR. Not only would this guarantee the competence of a capable vendor and remove the possibility of an inexperienced individual donning the vendor name, but it would also prevent scams as well. In addition, this would all be information that the vendor SHOULD provide on their front page anyway, so after all is said and done it would be a simple copy+paste job. You'd get the vendor started with a solid page full of information of how they plan to best serve the road, and you would confirm their legitimacy as a competent distributor.
I believe if we do not implement such a system, or a modified/similar version, SR itself will be directly contributing to the downfall of these individuals (and therefore putting its members at risk) by doing nothing about their ignorance. The fact that any fool can log on and immediately start vending just because they have $500 in their hand does not reflect the silkroad community's diligent attitude toward security. These individuals could have no idea how to package, how to ship anonymously, how to launder their money so as to avoid prosecution (and therefore seizure of data that could lead back to SR buyers), how to provide themselves with technological security so as to remain anonymous, they could be dealing excessively in their own local markets, and the list goes on. A vendor like this could even end up with positive feedback in certain cases, provided the packaging is not terrible and the shipping time is good. But these individuals, behind the scenes, could have no idea what they're doing in several of the many facets of what is required to be a competent vendor. This is evidenced by questions certain vendors will ask around the forums. And this is not to say a vendor asking questions is a negative thing, but if they are asking questions that directly apply to basic vending skills (while they are actively vending), this is definitely a problem.
An SR vendor needs to be one of the most trusted and competent individuals we have, because we literally have to trust them with our freedom. Any individual who cannot be trusted absolutely with this responsibility, should not be a vendor. And those who can be need to have their competence confirmed through testing or other similar means.
This will never happen. Trust me. This will never happen in a million years. It would prove administratively impossible to process that kind of information, and even if it were possible, financially it would be suicide.
Piece, Love, and Fuck Haters.
-
I'm very new to the road but was hoping to slowly make my way to vending (I think I estimated a 6 month time line to allow for proper learning, set up, and to start removing myself from F2F operations) So please excuse me if I don't grasp something fully, in fact please enlighten me.
There seems to be a lot of buyer protection, buyer power and control. I realize the buyers need protection from scams, and dangerous activities that could result in jail time. However there is an inherent risk in doing this activity. Just like going to the street corner you could be robbed or busted. In fact I think its more likely to happen in F2F situations.
There also seems to be very little protection for vendors (at least I can't see much). I understand that once a vendor slips a package into the mail that it is unlikely they are going to be caught for that. That if they are cautious on the web and with their bitcoins it is also unlikely they are going to get busted. But this doesn't mean they don't face real problems and aren't in danger.
I also am uncertain of the process to become a vendor, it's to far away for me to look at it in detail as currently there is an immense amount of information for me to try to learn. But I have seen that it requires 1500 bond (returned after x number of sales). They are also vulnerable to scamming and to threats of poor feedback.
I don't think I would like to detail an operation to "strangers" so I'm not sure how a test would work, or who would grade it.
I do think there should be a newbie vendor forum (in the newbie forum there is a lot of help but there is also a lot of spam/missed questions) I would hope that the newbie vendor forum would act as an introduction of what to expect, what is expected and as much "how to" info as could possibly be laid out without compromising method and security. That being said, anytime a LE decides to order from a vendor they learn the vendors method. So methods to stealth are most likely not as secret as everyone hopes.
You state that you would ask what a persons motives are. I don't want to sound rude but the answer to this is either is going to be one of the following: a lie, money, or $^%# off it's my business. More importantly what does it matter what a persons motives are? If they are a scammer they are not going to state "to scam the community" if they are in it for the money they are going to say so, and I imagine that there is pretty much no one falling into the altruistic category just trying to spread free love.
I would also point out that if you make the requirements so stringent on vendors the road itself may fade away. if there are only 5 sellers of apples here and I was one of them I would quickly and quite openly say to the other 4 sellers "hey, there is no competition if we all price set. Gas companies do it. so lets agree on a price point and simply track each others pricing."
Another possibility is that they price rise as a result of harder entry requirements. If I have to do more work and prove myself then why should my time there after be worth more (this is similar to 2 people doing the same job but one having a university education. The one with post secondary will start at higher pay usually and have a higher salary cap)
Don't get me wrong, I believe that the vendor system and those entering into it can be improved ( my post on what I would like to consider doing IF i was to become a vendor http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=164656 )
You also speak about the problem of them vending locally. I imagine that if the road provides enough income it is unlikely they will vend locally. However I also believe that in this free society and free market it is almost hypocritical to start claiming that there is a limit to how much a person can vend locally. Again don't misunderstand I fully agree with your point, it is crystal clear what the risks would be and why they would grow. But again IF I decided to make the plunge to become a vendor after doing as much as possible to learn the various systems involved in being successful here, who has the right to tell me that I can or can't vend locally. The risks are mine to take, the rewards are mine to reap. Aside from that there is also no way to police this, and I don't think any vendor wishes to admit anything about themselves.
I'm not a vendor yet and perhaps never will be depending on how much I can learn and how much of an investment is required and for what return. But I feel bad for some of the vendors on here. I know it's a loose system that allows for scamming (but it's scamming from both sides). There seems to be a big emphasis on vendors being shady. Perhaps this has developed over time as vendors have been shady. I don't know the history.
It's also hard to receive answers as a vendor. Do remember it's a business and despite the community feel every other vendor is a competitor. The only reason for vendors to care slightly about any other vendor is if a vendor puts the SR itself at risk. I don't know if that is even possible? Is this system so fragile that one poorly educated vendor doing it wrong and getting busted would result in the whole system being shut down? So with that in mind I do hope for help and one day I hope to help others but there is a bottom line and competition will hurt "mine". So how much/detailed any help is, is questionable. A vendor may even consider giving bad information to prevent competition. You do recall that most people on the vending side have most likely come from a world of scams, shady people, violence, lies, and theft. It's a hard world that makes hard people capable of dehumanizing a person and reducing them to a balance sheet. You ever see a crack dealer catch up with someone that owes money and has been ducking? you ever seen a green team strip a grow ? These are violent actions. If you are capable of doing what is required to stay in the game, then you are more than capable of providing false info to a would be competitor. In fact in the real world you can fight over territory, this misinformation may be the same "fight" for territory. So where does a person like me find real and good information to provide service on the road?
this is long and bloated but I really do want to learn and I do view a lot of these things as issues. If you can point me to more information I will gladly read it (and please not another "so you want to be a vendor" thread. They are very informative BUT after reading more than a few it gets repetitive and fails to answer some key questions.)
-
I'm very new to the road but was hoping to slowly make my way to vending (I think I estimated a 6 month time line to allow for proper learning, set up, and to start removing myself from F2F operations) So please excuse me if I don't grasp something fully, in fact please enlighten me.
There seems to be a lot of buyer protection, buyer power and control. I realize the buyers need protection from scams, and dangerous activities that could result in jail time. However there is an inherent risk in doing this activity. Just like going to the street corner you could be robbed or busted. In fact I think its more likely to happen in F2F situations.
There also seems to be very little protection for vendors (at least I can't see much). I understand that once a vendor slips a package into the mail that it is unlikely they are going to be caught for that. That if they are cautious on the web and with their bitcoins it is also unlikely they are going to get busted. But this doesn't mean they don't face real problems and aren't in danger.
I also am uncertain of the process to become a vendor, it's to far away for me to look at it in detail as currently there is an immense amount of information for me to try to learn. But I have seen that it requires 1500 bond (returned after x number of sales). They are also vulnerable to scamming and to threats of poor feedback.
I wholeheartedly agree. Please do not misconstrue this as a self-righteous buyer with his blinders on to the vendors, as so many are. I do not think we are oppressed by vendors, or that vendors form an oligarchy with DPR at the head, pulling the strings, setting prices, selectively scamming buyers left and right, etc. What I would say to this is that there is a lot about the author of the OP you do not know, so please do not make assumptions.
Another thing about this: I don't know if you read my posts, but this was designed with VENDOR safety in mind, even more so than buyer safety. It's fairly obvious this may do little for the buyer, but could prove absolutely invaluable to the vendor by saving their life.
I don't think I would like to detail an operation to "strangers" so I'm not sure how a test would work, or who would grade it.
I do think there should be a newbie vendor forum (in the newbie forum there is a lot of help but there is also a lot of spam/missed questions) I would hope that the newbie vendor forum would act as an introduction of what to expect, what is expected and as much "how to" info as could possibly be laid out without compromising method and security. That being said, anytime a LE decides to order from a vendor they learn the vendors method. So methods to stealth are most likely not as secret as everyone hopes.
DPR is a stranger, but not really. If you operate on a private site, such as his (just as a shop that operates on private real-estate), you are subject to his executive decisions and rules. Without him, there is neither a vendor, nor the money that comes with being a vendor, nor a SilkRoad. He and his associates are clearly competent enough to oversee a review of vendors for the site that they created. Not to mention the information you would provide would be nothing that you could not already reveal publicly. I don't know why detailing how you plan to ship, what you are selling, a vague overview of your laundering procedure, your hours of operation, whether or not you sell locally, etc. would make you a target. I gave a very brief, vague overview of how the "test" (if you'd like to call it that) would work. Basically a written description of how one plans to operate - I believe someone else described it as a "business plan," and I would think this to be a more accurate description than a "test." Like I said, this is not a proposal but a persuasive document that can hopefully lead to a more specific discussion and proposal on a pre-vending review procedure.
I agree that a newbie vendor forum would be beneficial. However, all the information is here on the board, it's just not centralized in one place (which I beleive to be a good thing).
You state that you would ask what a persons motives are. I don't want to sound rude but the answer to this is either is going to be one of the following: a lie, money, or $^%# off it's my business. More importantly what does it matter what a persons motives are? If they are a scammer they are not going to state "to scam the community" if they are in it for the money they are going to say so, and I imagine that there is pretty much no one falling into the altruistic category just trying to spread free love.
I meant "motives" in a more practical sense, such as "I am here to provide high quality organic medical cannabis to the SilkRoad." I did not mean motives in the sense of "ulterior motives" or anything of that sort.
I would also point out that if you make the requirements so stringent on vendors the road itself may fade away. if there are only 5 sellers of apples here and I was one of them I would quickly and quite openly say to the other 4 sellers "hey, there is no competition if we all price set. Gas companies do it. so lets agree on a price point and simply track each others pricing."
I can guarantee that this would never happen. If the potential for profit is there, vendors will always come to take a piece. Just because something is a bit more difficult to do does not mean that no one will do it. You need only look to the professional world. And most of these vendors are getting paid at least twice what those individuals make. We need professionalism and quality service here on SR. Just as I wouldn't want someone that didn't pass high school operating surgery on me, I do not want incompetent vendors on the road, for two reasons (as I have mentioned). 1. They are bound to destroy themselves and ruin their own lives (this is what I am most concerned about. Any convicted felon knows what I am talking about). 2. They may drag buyers down with them.
Another possibility is that they price rise as a result of harder entry requirements. If I have to do more work and prove myself then why should my time there after be worth more (this is similar to 2 people doing the same job but one having a university education. The one with post secondary will start at higher pay usually and have a higher salary cap)
Well, in the context of a labor market, this would just mean that the one with the university education would receive employment before the individual without. However, I think this is a weak argument (maybe a side thought you just wanted to throw in, I have no way of knowing). Having to prove your competence before being vendor will not raise prices, especially with the currently established market in place. Like I said, this would be most of the work a vendor would have to do anyway to set up their home page/listings. Why not do it in the form of a presentation to prove competency? I don't see what's wrong with it. Maybe you view vendor's haivng to study for six months to "pass" (like I said, it's not a test. Answers would be entirely subjective) like an MCAT/LSAT/GMAT standardized test. You may as well have just finished school, eh? No. That's not what this would be, at all. It would serve a practical purpose, killing two birds with one stone.[/quote]
Don't get me wrong, I believe that the vendor system and those entering into it can be improved ( my post on what I would like to consider doing IF i was to become a vendor http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=164656 )
You also speak about the problem of them vending locally. I imagine that if the road provides enough income it is unlikely they will vend locally. However I also believe that in this free society and free market it is almost hypocritical to start claiming that there is a limit to how much a person can vend locally. Again don't misunderstand I fully agree with your point, it is crystal clear what the risks would be and why they would grow. But again IF I decided to make the plunge to become a vendor after doing as much as possible to learn the various systems involved in being successful here, who has the right to tell me that I can or can't vend locally. The risks are mine to take, the rewards are mine to reap. Aside from that there is also no way to police this, and I don't think any vendor wishes to admit anything about themselves.
Like you said, correct you if you are wrong. In this case, you are wrong. Vendors have frequently gone outside the confines of SR to do their selling and it has usually resulted in problems. No one has the right to make you do anything, but it will be said to vendors who plan on vending locally that it is highly unadvisable to vend outside of SR and will put a very short timer on your career, guaranteed. Like I said, this is about informing the vendor. The idea is not to force or to make them do anything; the idea is to prevent incompetent vendors from hurting themselves and possibly their buyers.
I'm not a vendor yet and perhaps never will be depending on how much I can learn and how much of an investment is required and for what return. But I feel bad for some of the vendors on here. I know it's a loose system that allows for scamming (but it's scamming from both sides). There seems to be a big emphasis on vendors being shady. Perhaps this has developed over time as vendors have been shady. I don't know the history.
It's also hard to receive answers as a vendor. Do remember it's a business and despite the community feel every other vendor is a competitor. The only reason for vendors to care slightly about any other vendor is if a vendor puts the SR itself at risk. I don't know if that is even possible? Is this system so fragile that one poorly educated vendor doing it wrong and getting busted would result in the whole system being shut down?
Of course not. But you've got the attention it could attract, record keeping that could lead back to buyers, possibly LE interrogation that could result in information about bulk buyers being divulged, and so on and so forth. If the vendor has ever gotten the addresses of other vendors through sales to them (which would mean the other vendor shouldn't have gotten a vendor account, either), then another individual could be taken down. It could get very messy very fast. My policy is security before everything, especially money which will cloud one's judgment very easily. With proper training and knowledge of general procedures, a vendor should never even have to have any sort of encounter with LE, ever. The road does not need the attention, and the buyers do not need to be put at even more risk than they already are. If you misunderstood my post to say that a vendor getting busted would take down the whole road (and again, this may be a lack of experience here - plenty of vendors have, in fact, been busted all over the world - the whole point of me writing this, really), that is not at all what I meant.
So with that in mind I do hope for help and one day I hope to help others but there is a bottom line and competition will hurt "mine". So how much/detailed any help is, is questionable. A vendor may even consider giving bad information to prevent competition. You do recall that most people on the vending side have most likely come from a world of scams, shady people, violence, lies, and theft. It's a hard world that makes hard people capable of dehumanizing a person and reducing them to a balance sheet. You ever see a crack dealer catch up with someone that owes money and has been ducking? you ever seen a green team strip a grow ? These are violent actions. If you are capable of doing what is required to stay in the game, then you are more than capable of providing false info to a would be competitor. In fact in the real world you can fight over territory, this misinformation may be the same "fight" for territory. So where does a person like me find real and good information to provide service on the road?
All around you. Again, I think due to lack of experience here, you are not aware of how things work. People are helpful and friendly here, for the most part. Vendors won't go way out of their way to help you out of competitive spirit, but they WILL help you if you ask the right ones. Of course there are secrets of every trade. An SR marijuana distributor that is active and friendly in the community is not going to give you his grower, obviously, but he will learn you in the ways of proper packaging, the nuances of setting up a grow, and the like.
this is long and bloated but I really do want to learn and I do view a lot of these things as issues. If you can point me to more information I will gladly read it (and please not another "so you want to be a vendor" thread. They are very informative BUT after reading more than a few it gets repetitive and fails to answer some key questions.)
It's really the same as any forum. Just read everything. Eventually you will obtain "nack" for what is what, how things work, etc. And if you are not sure about something, it's not illegal to ask (although I'm sure no one here would care if it was).
-
Vendors should be paying $5000+ for the privilege of being a vendor on SR this would stop the riff raffing scammers and children vendors on SR to date etc etc plus vendors should have a probationary period also to see if they've got what it takes to be a buyer and seller on SR plus I'm pretty sure you sending good shit out and doing a great job will only result in 100% 5/5 feedbacks ok enough said here I think.
-
P2P... You are fucking stupid if you think every vendor should have to hand over a detailed description to ANYONE on how they plan to obtain/manufacture, package, ship, launder money, carry out customer service, maintain the security of buyers, and maintain their own security technologically and otherwise.
This is not a fortune 500 company. You aren't buying a franchise fucking McDonalds. People are selling drugs and committing felonies. You just simply aren't preview to that sort of information unless you're the one taking the risk. What in the fuck gave you the idea that this was even REMOTELY a good idea?
-
I'm with nacho on this one...I would have maybe worded it a little nicer lol... Anyways it is in nobody's best interest to have a vendor be revealing his packaging and shipping methods to anyone, ever.
-
Really? The vendors are the ones taking the greater risk. Asking them to take even MORE of one by submitting a business plan (esp one that includes descriptions of how they plan to launder their profits) makes you sound either like LE or laughably removed from the reality of criminal enterprise- in which case you might want to reconsider what you're doing here. Besides, it makes no sense. Any vendor who agreed to such stipulations I'd avoid like the plague, as they'd obviously lack any sense of security.
Besides, what's wrong with Darwinism? It's worked so far.
-
As is constantly reiterated at every opportunity, DPR et all. are very much committed the idea of extremely lassiez faire free market economics, and silk road is a free market. The idea is pretty much you turn up, pay your $500 and off you go. Making everyone undergo a detailled interview process kind of goes against the spirit of the thing.
The idea is that market forces and consumer pressure will keep a lid on bad vendors and scammers. It seems to work pretty well.
Besides this, such a system would require huge amounts of admin and manpower.
The $500 bar discourages casual scammers. Its always going to be difficult to prevent vendors pulling exit scams.
-
Perhaps a higher bond amount would deter a lot of new vendors coming in and ruining the market by offering ridiculously low prices just to under cut existing, trusted members.
-BB
-
I wanted to say thank you for answering my in such detail and for your original post. Though I still disagree with some of the ideas (or at least how they might be implemented) I do understand where you are coming from. Though I think perhaps I worded some of my thoughts and questions a little poorly to not express what I specifically meant, and you are correct some thoughts were merely side tracked and added in, I appreciate the time you took.
-
Really? The vendors are the ones taking the greater risk. Asking them to take even MORE of one by submitting a business plan (esp one that includes descriptions of how they plan to launder their profits) makes you sound either like LE or laughably removed from the reality of criminal enterprise- in which case you might want to reconsider what you're doing here. Besides, it makes no sense. Any vendor who agreed to such stipulations I'd avoid like the plague, as they'd obviously lack any sense of security.
Besides, what's wrong with Darwinism? It's worked so far.
Both of those initial assumptions are incorrect. Transaction to transaction, vendors are not taking a greater risk. However, by being uneducated or inexperienced in the vending process, they are taking a huge risk. The fact that very few individuals on the Silkroad seem to have any interest in the welfare of their fellow human beings here actually attests to the fact that THEY are in fact too far removed from any sort of criminal enterprise to sympathize. If you had ever been in a situation where you were facing hard time in prison (maybe some of you have, but I would assume most of you have not), you would understand how serious a matter this is, and how by simply educating people it can be avoided.
And as for the free market argument I keep hearing: The idea is this - DPR is at the top. He has already passed down executive decisions banning the sales of firearms, CP (I am making a point with this one, please no baseless accusations), counterfeit currency, or anything that could harm another human being. Therefore, this market is not 100% free. There is a head that can regulate it. That is already in place, and the people are fine with it. YOU are fine with it, as far as I can tell. He acts as the highest overseer of the market as we speak, and all of his decisions are final. Not a presidency, not a constitutional monarchy - a dictatorship, albeit a benevolent one. So let's take a step down off our high moral chariots and speak about reality, for a minute, if you will indulge me.
The fact is that it is simply irresponsible and, quite frankly, tacitly malicious to allow incompetent individuals to become vendors. It is the same in all walks of life. I do not know why someone should get a free pass to jump right in just because they chose to distribute illicit substances. It's insane to have no prerequisites in this business, especially when you are talking about a business that controls what you think it is that you are putting into your body. I understand the position of some is, "Well, then let them start up. Even if they fail, who cares, right?" But we're not talking about CPAs or lawyers or someone working at starbucks here. We're talking about individuals involved in numerous ongoing criminal activities, who may or may not have any idea what they are doing.
I do not doubt the ability of the free market to weed out these incompetent vendors - that was not at all the subject of this discussion, and I completely agree with you on that point. What I am talking about is protecting vendors from themselves by educating them before they do something foolish, and having a way of evaluating whether or not they are prepared to vend in a safe and efficient manner.
And for the third time, I am not handing down a mandate of what this method would be. I am simply asking that serious steps be taken to propose an evaluation method that would both benefit the vendor and the Silkroad by preparing the vendor for vending and by ensuring the Silkroad that the vendor is prepared. I do not see anything wrong with this, in theory. However, I am seeing people coming in here to pick apart the individual parts of my completely hypothetical, brief, and vague description of what a method would be like. This is a pointless exercise. Look at the merit of the idea as a whole, and think how you would practically implement it. It is a practical suggestion, can be implemented within the rules of the Silkroad, and would save several vendors from the serious repercussions of ignorance in this very unforgiving business.
-
By the time I finally reply the topic has changed. :-\ Well, at least my pets are no longer following me around after every post I make and then locking the thread, so thank god for small favours. ::)
Piece, Love, and Fuck Haters.
Stop acting like an infant, Razorspyne. You're only succeeding in making yourself look foolish. You don't have to agree with moderator decisions, but they are what they are - there's no legitimate reason to troll other threads crying about it simply because other threads got locked for the reasons stated in them.
My reason for locking a thread you started was given in it.
That reason is available here:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=160934.msg1184275#msg1184275
It devolved from a legitimate discussion into ongoing personal attacks on each other, thus I deemed it off topic - and detrimental enough to this community - to lock it.
Libertas
-
Vendors may not be taking a greater risk at the moment they are sending something. There is very little risk in dropping a package in a box.
However vendors take outside risks, theft, violence, scam, and are far easier to target for legal action. To be fair they are most likely the intended target for investigation and prosecution. There are risks to everyone involved but the buyer is receiving (generally) a personal amount that doesn't offer a great bust for LE.
I would argue that on terms of risk the vendor takes far larger risks than any buyer.
Depending on amount, I don't know if a person without prior convictions, purchasing a personal amount would actually face any hard time. I doubt a judge would give someone months of jail for a gram of anything.
As stated before I'm new here and I mean no disrespect but you assume what you believe to be someones intent (DPR or anyone else). From my stand point it might be a simple risk analysis. Perhaps fire arms and CP would create to much negative publicity, or be higher on a priority list than small amounts of drugs. Your definition of "not selling anything that could harm another human" seems some what lacking. Counterfeit money seems to be fairly harmless (on scale of things that cause damage to a person) where as meth seems to be fairly destructive. To be blunt most to all drugs sold here are more than likely some how dangerous and detrimental to a persons health and well being. All I'm trying to point out is your assumptions about the intent of someone else may not be correct.
I believe the market determines who is a vendor and who isn't. It is a simple system. The better the vendor the better the feedback the better the reputation the more sales the more reviews (upward spiral). The opposite is also true. Negative feedback results in fewer sales, fewer reviews (except for the previous negative) and eventually they are out of business. There may be casualties along the way. That is unfortunate. But there are casualties on all sides of this business. To limit this use a trusted vendor. Just as as a vendor is unlikely to make large sales to a new buyer.
If someone has no idea what they are doing it is likely that they will fail on several fronts. But buyer beware is also a part of this. I get the impression you are trying to almost stream line and idiot proof purchasing. I hate to say this but if "you" (not actually you) want to be a buyer on here then "you" need to do your research as well. Not only how to receive and safety measures on and off line but also to research each vendor that you wish to purchase from. To be horribly blunt. If a buyer is to lazy to spend 10-30 minutes reading up on a vendor, policies, practices, reviews and what not then that buyer is exactly the same as what you are claiming of some vendors.
Everyone needs to take personal responsibility for themselves. If you can't research a vendor and you get scammed it is most likely a risk that you chose to take. I have doubts that any long time reputable vendors are out there just randomly scamming people. Yes I recognize that it is possible, but I think unlikely. At any rate I think this comes down to mostly personal responsibility. Vendor need to be responsible in their learning and research. Buyers need to do the same. Purchase responsibly.
That's my 2 cents anyways.
-
When you buy drugs off the street do you tell the dealer "Hey I'm gonna need a spreadsheet of your entire operation so we can conduct business?" No. Why? Because no one would be that stupid. Stop P2P. The system isn't broke. And what you're suggesting wouldn't fix it if it was - it would implode the entire system!
-
This doesn't even require that much debate.
Simply put; it's black market. Emphasis on *black*. It also a free market.
So it's a free BLACK market.
It's a virtual version of the street scene, only it's anonymous. It's all about shared and accepted risk.
Don't over think it. Well I mean, if you're going to spend time over thinking it, might as well start up a rival site. Then you can test your ideas to see how right or wrong you are and make adjustments along the way. Another site to rival SR would be an awesome thing.
-
Yes it should, in fact it should be more. Firstly, it's not an 'admission' it's a 'bond' once you have achieved 30 transactions, $1500 worth of sales, have been a vendor for six + weeks, and have proved yourself to be an asset to this community (not a scammer) than you can apply for your bond to be refunded, so in actual fact once you've proved yourself your vendor membership is free. If you wish to read up on this you can do so via the SilkRoad wiki dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/wiki/index.php?title=Seller%27s_Guide#Bond I am in full support of the $500 vendor bond, it weeds out scammers, and it's a pittance compared to what the average vendor earns here.
-
Respectfully, vendors are taking a bigger risk transaction to transaction. Their feedback, offerings, etc are visible for anyone who signed up to SR to see. You can get a good sense how much business a vendor is doing from their feedback which puts a great liability on the vendor. Vendors can't actually see a buyer's transaction history until they purchase that vendor's product so they are much more protected. And even then its only visible to that vendor- not the entire SR community. Not to mention vendor reviews on this forum which are helpful to buyers but also place much more liability on the vendor if 200 people are saying they are a great vendor and what sort of quantity they bought.
-
The OP is reasonable enough, but I completely disagree and it'd be bad for the Road.
Simple reason:
The more vendors, the more products, the more competition, the lower the prices. True? True.
Now, certain types of buyers are willing to take chances with new or untested vendors; they're doing us a service. Others only feel safe ordering from the big dogs on the Road. As the buyers who don't mind risk buy from a new vendor, especially if the noob starts with low prices to draw business, the more risky buyers will soon find out if the vendor is legit or not, and if the vendor is great, then they eventually become a big dog and it's a win-win-win. But if that same potential vendor was scared off or just didn't want to deal with testing, or was put off by the fee, then that's a potential loss for the community.
Think of it this way... in human evolution, some were more prone to eat everything in sight that seemed edible. If they lived and didn't start convulsing, the people more concerned about safety then try the berries, and they weren't poisoned.
-
StEXOs vendor tracking app listed about 1000 active vendors on the Road.
Wraithe's post about listing suspicious vendors is only a week old and there are already 16 vendors who have broken bad just in the past couple weeks alone.
Last month the body count was equally high.
The scam is becoming obvious. Rogue vendors are simply revolving doors in here, opening up a new shop, faking feedback, and raping the buying public. Rinse, repeat. $500 entry fee is a joke for them, they are clearly paying it without pain to their bottom line. They open their new vendor account the day DPR shuts down their old one.
So, is the vendor bond working? Is it protecting the buyers?
Why not make it $5,000? You still get it back and it would stop this revolving door of scammers who are simply getting more and more sophisticated in their attempts.
This post comes up a lot, and the consensus is clearly moving toward raising it. I've seen very little opposition to this, and as rogue vendors continue to multiply, it's time to give this a fresh look IMO.
In my little corner of SR selling mushrooms, Good Drugs came in two weeks ago with tons of listings and stole tens of thousands before his account was closed. You think he has a measly $500 left to do it once more? You bet. I'd also bet he already has another vendor account up and running, just waiting for you.
-
StEXOs vendor tracking app listed about 1000 active vendors on the Road.
Wraithe's post about listing suspicious vendors is only a week old and there are already 16 vendors who have broken bad just in the past couple weeks alone.
Last month the body count was equally high.
The scam is becoming obvious. Rogue vendors are simply revolving doors in here, opening up a new shop, faking feedback, and raping the buying public. Rinse, repeat. $500 entry fee is a joke for them, they are clearly paying it without pain to their bottom line. They open their new vendor account the day DPR shuts down their old one.
So, is the vendor bond working? Is it protecting the buyers?
Why not make it $5,000? You still get it back and it would stop this revolving door of scammers who are simply getting more and more sophisticated in their attempts.
This post comes up a lot, and the consensus is clearly moving toward raising it. I've seen very little opposition to this, and as rogue vendors continue to multiply, it's time to give this a fresh look IMO.
In my little corner of SR selling mushrooms, Good Drugs came in two weeks ago with tons of listings and stole tens of thousands before his account was closed. You think he has a measly $500 left to do it once more? You bet. I'd also bet he already has another vendor account up and running, just waiting for you.
I also believe $500 is too low but your argument is invalid because it is the buyers fault every time. You are instructed not to finalize until you receive the product so if they were following the rules of the road then this couldn't happen.
Don't finalize early. ::)
-
I also believe $500 is too low but your argument is invalid because it is the buyers fault every time.
Blaming the victim doesn't help to solve the problem. Not everyone is as sophisticated a buyer as you are, and not every buyer comes to the forums first. Fuck them, fool and their money right? Well, that's one attitude, sure, this is a drug site after all. But think about this, since Wraithe's post on May 23rd, there have been 16 vendor accounts shut down for fraud. IN THE PAST 8 DAYS. You do realize that each rogue vendor erodes SRs credibility a tiny little bit and this trend is accelerating because each banned vendor is just coming right back in and ponying up his $500 graft fee.
All 16 followed the same path. They bought a vendor account, made some listings, actually mailed a few small-priced items out, and then the scam is on. The pattern is not hard to discern and the only real weapon against this is a hefty vendor bond.
Step away from fraud for a moment and think about how many vendors you would say are professional? It's less than half for me, and it's these marginal players who come in, get in over their heads and out of anger they decide to break bad.
-
I also believe $500 is too low but your argument is invalid because it is the buyers fault every time.
Blaming the victim doesn't help to solve the problem. Not everyone is as sophisticated a buyer as you are, and not every buyer comes to the forums first. Fuck them, fool and their money right? Well, that's one attitude, sure, this is a drug site after all. But think about this, since Wraithe's post on May 23rd, there have been 16 vendor accounts shut down for fraud. IN THE PAST 8 DAYS. You do realize that each rogue vendor erodes SRs credibility a tiny little bit and this trend is accelerating because each banned vendor is just coming right back in and ponying up his $500 graft fee.
All 16 followed the same path. They bought a vendor account, made some listings, actually mailed a few small-priced items out, and then the scam is on. The pattern is not hard to discern and the only real weapon against this is a hefty vendor bond.
Step away from fraud for a moment and think about how many vendors you would say are professional? It's less than half for me, and it's these marginal players who come in, get in over their heads and out of anger they decide to break bad.
You are supposed to read the instructions. Do not finalize your order until you receive the product. That is 100% their fault. You are never supposed to finalize your order early. It just makes no sense. When a customer finalizes they are signing off on the order and saying that they are satisfied and the deal is complete so really they were not even scammed. They said the deal is done.=
-
Its awful that some people come on SR with the intent to defraud the system and customers. However, rather than focusing on making the entry into SR more difficult by increasing the bond or implementing restrictive procedures - perhaps the focus should be on educating the buyers. No Finalizing Early on any vendor. Or no FE on any vendor that does not meet a certain criteria (50 transactions, $5k worth of product sold, etc). Protect the buyer without limiting vendor inclusion into the free marketplace of SR.
-
fivestargirl and others, I don't know if you fully read this thread, but in the future it would be wise to do so since your comments have been addressed. A lot of you are completely missing the point. This is about protecting the vendors, and the buyers (but not as much). The vendors are what I was focusing on here. My argument about buyers taking more immediate direct risk stands, but that was a digression from the main point of the original post. Take CHROOTS comment about the buyers, and replace the word "buyer" with "vendor."
Blaming the victim doesn't help to solve the problem. Not everyone is as sophisticated a buyer as you are, and not every buyer comes to the forums first. Fuck them, fool and their money right?
What everyone here is arguing is that competition will weed out bad vendors. For the second time (and this is the second time I have had to say "for the Xth time" by the way - please read the thread), I agree with you. I agree. Free market competition is great. The bad vendors will not prevail. They won't. They may make a bit of money, but they will not last and the market will always stabilize. I agree. Should I say I agree one more time? I'm not going to, because I've said it enough - in this post, and I believe one or two others on this same thread.
Protecting buyers, though, is not as much of what I was talking about as protecting VENDORS. Vendors. Protecting vendors. I apologize if the redundancy seems condescending but I assume if I say the main concepts of the post three times in the same post (as opposed to three different posts), people may grasp what I am saying better. I am either a terrible linguist, or no one read all of what they should have to be able to respond accurately to this thread.
So it's not that I am saying, "Place restrictions on vendors because there are bad vendors that will hurt buyers." I am saying, "Make sure (by whatever means you like) that the vendor is 100% competent before selling so they do not hurt themselves or others. Mainly, so they do not hurt themselves. And by "hurt themselves" I mean ruin their own lives simply due to ignorance." Everyone here seems to want to focus on the "or others" portion of my assertion when it only slightly pertains to the entire point. Yes, buyers get scammed. I am not suggesting a method to stop all buyers from getting scammed, because that will never happen. However, less scamming may be an indirect result of this method. I am suggesting that a vendor should be properly educated on the procedures that are required to be successful and secure here on the Silkroad before ever starting, because mistakes made at the start can last forever (in the world of computer databases that we live in today). I do not know why evaluating vendors for competency would be seen as an inappropriate step to take toward improving the Silkroad. Less busted vendors, less lives ruined, less buyers put at risk.
I feel like I just have not made my position very clear, and therefore everyone is taking the argument in a completely different direction. I know for a fact none of you (who are not sadists) are against vendors educating themselves. All I am arguing is that there needs to be a system in place to confirm they are educated properly and therefore ready to sell to you, the buyers, without setting themselves up for a serious downfall. Yes, the free market will take care of you as the buyers if you are educated, I understand, but the vendors do not get this sort of security. They have to do everything themselves, from nothing. They don't pay a competent person to do everything for them as the buyers do. Therefore, it is very likely that they could slip up in one or more of the several areas over which mastery is required to be a successful vendor. Why not prevent this? I've displayed my arguments covering how this would help the road, but what are the arguments against it? So far I have only seen misdirected arguments that are not specifically aimed at what I said, but rather a misunderstanding of what I said, or those that have just said "I disagree" (likely under the same pretense). So hopefully this clears up my position on this matter for most of you and we can actually rationally discuss things instead of being on two very different pages.
P.S. A $5000 bond would, I believe, deter most nefarious activities, but it would not at all mean the vendor was well educated and it could actually deter otherwise competent people from starting vendor accounts simply due to it being too much of a financial reach.
-
This (general) idea could be discussed in much more detail and a ton of variations could be discussed (before potentially putting any of them into action)
For example
An initial vendor account could be kept at $500usd and but their 'SR tax" is higher than higher rated vendors, therefore the harder you work and better your rating the lower you will pay eventually.
The best vendors should be rewarded with less payment(s) and the noobs should have to earn their low taxes by gaining better ratings.
-
My .02btc
I believe that the sentiment here is earnest. That the feeling is truly one of protecting the community. But it seems to me that this is the same kind of reasoning that has led to the host of bureaucratic nonsense that plagues business IRL. At some point "Protecting Vendors" and "Protecting Buyers" becomes "Protecting the Privileged Incumbents". Are we at that point right now? No. But the point is it's a very slippery slope past this point.
$500 is a lot to someone just starting out selling. But it's arguably an obtainable hurdle.
$5000 can feel like a lifetime away.
And I think that while it COULD scare away some of the riffraff. The more likely scenario would be that it would scare away, hardworking, entrepreneurs, who just want to find a stable customer base outside of the street. You could order 1 Kilo of Research Chemicals from china for $1000 pay your $500 vendor bond and be up and running servicing a need on this community.
If you had to pay more. You might simply walk away. And that sucks.
And the worst part is, a higher bar to entry wouldn't stop the scamming. It would just make the scams of higher caliber and ultimately more damaging to the community. People would falsely feel more secure that people had a higher bar to entry.
Regulated industry in America has to pay a shit load to get started. And no ones ever heard of an American Company scamming anyone, right?
But what do I know.
-
The system is fine the way it is. Vendors don't need any more vendor protection.
P2P, everything you say if from the perspective of someone who forgot that 99% of what goes on here is illegal and can get you locked up for participating in it.
It's supposed to be risky at all times. Every person is responsible for their own risk management. No none of that nanny state stuff to protect people from themselves. Keep it real, keep it raw. Some of these vendors are part of organized crime syndicates. Some connected to street thugs. Some got rap sheets.
SR ain't an Ivy league of drug dealing.
I see some newbs coming up in here acting as if they bought some gear from a third party, mom and pop op, on eBay or Amazon. Having all kinds of false expectations because they never bought off a street dealer. The very fact that newbs easily FE shows they have the wrong idea about vendors and who they are. CHROOT is right... fuck 'em. They have to learn somehow.
@ shamelessharvey... yup.
-
Perhaps a higher bond amount would deter a lot of new vendors coming in and ruining the market by offering ridiculously low prices just to under cut existing, trusted members.
-BB
I think this is the entire point of a free market.
If a seller can sustainably market a comparable product at a lower rate and at the same level of customer service, then they should take market share. If they do it on a lark to make money, they won't last very long.
I think the market should decide who to buy from. Setting an arbitrarily high bond to "Deter New Vendors" is really just "Deterring Competition"
-
The system is fine the way it is. Vendors don't need any more vendor protection.
P2P, everything you say if from the perspective of someone who forgot that 99% of what goes on here is illegal and can get you locked up for participating in it.
It's supposed to be risky at all times. Every person is responsible for their own risk management. No none of that nanny state stuff to protect people from themselves. Keep it real, keep it raw. Some of these vendors are part of organized crime syndicates. Some connected to street thugs. Some got rap sheets.
SR ain't an Ivy league of drug dealing.
I see some newbs coming up in here acting as if they bought some gear from a third party, mom and pop op, on eBay or Amazon. Having all kinds of false expectations because they never bought off a street dealer. The very fact that newbs easily FE shows they have the wrong idea about vendors and who they are. CHROOT is right... fuck 'em. They have to learn somehow.
@ shamelessharvey... yup.
I completely understand this viewpoint, and I respect it. I believe there is plenty of room for improvement, though, without disrupting the natural order of things. I suppose it is a bit naive to think you can turn a black market into a civilized exchange of illicit goods, where professionalism is cornerstone. But I believe this was somewhat DPR's vision. That is, to take us off the street; to allow us to obtain our products in a less barbaric, impractical, and expensive manner. Delete the violence and prison bars. I realize for some this is a lifestyle that they are proud to live, but it is not conducive to a stable marketplace and the longevity of the business that occurs there.
-
I completely understand this viewpoint, and I respect it. I believe there is plenty of room for improvement, though, without disrupting the natural order of things. I suppose it is a bit naive to think you can turn a black market into a civilized exchange of illicit goods, where professionalism is cornerstone. But I believe this was somewhat DPR's vision. That is, to take us off the street; to allow us to obtain our products in a less barbaric, impractical, and expensive manner. Delete the violence and prison bars. I realize for some this is a lifestyle that they are proud to live, but it is not conducive to a stable marketplace and the longevity of the business that occurs there.
You can't have a "stable" marketplace when it comes to illicit goods. Transaction risk is way too high for all involved.
That and there's no quality control or any third party to oversee quality control.
Every aspect of SR is risky. Obtaining BTC, maintaining anonymity, ordering products of truly unknown composition, packaging stealth, laundering coins before converting to fiat... and on and on.
There is no room on the upside for fundamental improvement. Any improvement is strictly lateral until the illicit nature of business transactions here is no longer illicit.
-
Really? The vendors are the ones taking the greater risk. Asking them to take even MORE of one by submitting a business plan (esp one that includes descriptions of how they plan to launder their profits) makes you sound either like LE or laughably removed from the reality of criminal enterprise- in which case you might want to reconsider what you're doing here. Besides, it makes no sense. Any vendor who agreed to such stipulations I'd avoid like the plague, as they'd obviously lack any sense of security.
Besides, what's wrong with Darwinism? It's worked so far.
Both of those initial assumptions are incorrect. Transaction to transaction, vendors are not taking a greater risk. However, by being uneducated or inexperienced in the vending process, they are taking a huge risk. The fact that very few individuals on the Silkroad seem to have any interest in the welfare of their fellow human beings here actually attests to the fact that THEY are in fact too far removed from any sort of criminal enterprise to sympathize. If you had ever been in a situation where you were facing hard time in prison (maybe some of you have, but I would assume most of you have not), you would understand how serious a matter this is, and how by simply educating people it can be avoided.
And as for the free market argument I keep hearing: The idea is this - DPR is at the top. He has already passed down executive decisions banning the sales of firearms, CP (I am making a point with this one, please no baseless accusations), counterfeit currency, or anything that could harm another human being. Therefore, this market is not 100% free. There is a head that can regulate it. That is already in place, and the people are fine with it. YOU are fine with it, as far as I can tell. He acts as the highest overseer of the market as we speak, and all of his decisions are final. Not a presidency, not a constitutional monarchy - a dictatorship, albeit a benevolent one. So let's take a step down off our high moral chariots and speak about reality, for a minute, if you will indulge me.
The fact is that it is simply irresponsible and, quite frankly, tacitly malicious to allow incompetent individuals to become vendors. It is the same in all walks of life. I do not know why someone should get a free pass to jump right in just because they chose to distribute illicit substances. It's insane to have no prerequisites in this business, especially when you are talking about a business that controls what you think it is that you are putting into your body. I understand the position of some is, "Well, then let them start up. Even if they fail, who cares, right?" But we're not talking about CPAs or lawyers or someone working at starbucks here. We're talking about individuals involved in numerous ongoing criminal activities, who may or may not have any idea what they are doing.
I do not doubt the ability of the free market to weed out these incompetent vendors - that was not at all the subject of this discussion, and I completely agree with you on that point. What I am talking about is protecting vendors from themselves by educating them before they do something foolish, and having a way of evaluating whether or not they are prepared to vend in a safe and efficient manner.
And for the third time, I am not handing down a mandate of what this method would be. I am simply asking that serious steps be taken to propose an evaluation method that would both benefit the vendor and the Silkroad by preparing the vendor for vending and by ensuring the Silkroad that the vendor is prepared. I do not see anything wrong with this, in theory. However, I am seeing people coming in here to pick apart the individual parts of my completely hypothetical, brief, and vague description of what a method would be like. This is a pointless exercise. Look at the merit of the idea as a whole, and think how you would practically implement it. It is a practical suggestion, can be implemented within the rules of the Silkroad, and would save several vendors from the serious repercussions of ignorance in this very unforgiving business.
As far as the free market goes, you could probably tell from the tone of my first post that I agree with you: no market can be 100% free, particularly one owned and curated by a private individual. There are already a number of rules in place, chief among these is the mandated use of bitcoins as currency on the site. Still, I think the idea is to run the site with as little regulation as possible, and vetting vendors for competence in the way you suggest seems like it would be alien to everything SR stands for. The whole point of an online marketplace is to provide a space for people to buy and sell. Its like pirate bay,you don't expect the owners of TPB to vet every torrent and it would be impractical for them to try.
I'm not sure why anyone would want to protect vendors from their own incompetence? If someone chooses to avail themselves of the high profits available in the illegal drug business (profits which are high due to the very risks involved) then they should be responsible for the risks themselves. Why should I expend time and money (restricting entry to SR for vendors would increase prices, definitely!) insuring them.
Poor vendors cannot incriminate anyone but themselves. That's the beauty of SR. And as far as how other vendors should react, there's an old joke:
Two men are hunting when they are attacked by a hungry bear. One stops to tie his laces. His friend says
"What are you doing you can't outrun a bear?"
He replies
"I don't need to outrun a bear, I just need to outrun you!"
-
yeah $500 is pretty low..
Plus a vendor can just give themselves 30 fake transactions.. obviously it will cost them a little bit, but not much if they just buy the initial $1500 worth...
The bond refund thing is automated so its not gonna have a clue anyone is giving fake feedback.
On some new vendors its retarded.. They have been a vendor for 1 day and on the feedback they already have like 2 of 3 people who sumhow managed to receive the items... on the same day the vendor started..
and the "F.E for trusted vendor" when the vendor has like 6 transactions is absolutely retarded... like some of the vendors, it really makes you wonder.
-
Make it 2k. I wouldnt want some lower level drug dealer to have my infomation
-
it used to be like 150 to become a Vendor...
and before that you could just turn your account into one, lol.
there should be a level reached and obtained here...
but at the same time it looks like scammers are consistently getting 10k+ in scams..
so it's not hard for them to open up another account and hit you for another 10k..
not to mention the profit they are making from being legit... until they hit and dip.
sigh.. the human race.
/thumbs
-
Vendors should be paying $5000+ for the privilege of being a vendor on SR this would stop the riff raffing scammers and children vendors on SR to date etc etc plus vendors should have a probationary period also to see if they've got what it takes to be a buyer and seller on SR plus I'm pretty sure you sending good shit out and doing a great job will only result in 100% 5/5 feedbacks ok enough said here I think.
It would stop less scammers, but would attract larger scams. If people were just more careful it'd be fine
-
I also believe $500 is too low but your argument is invalid because it is the buyers fault every time.
Blaming the victim doesn't help to solve the problem. Not everyone is as sophisticated a buyer as you are, and not every buyer comes to the forums first. Fuck them, fool and their money right? Well, that's one attitude, sure, this is a drug site after all. But think about this, since Wraithe's post on May 23rd, there have been 16 vendor accounts shut down for fraud. IN THE PAST 8 DAYS. You do realize that each rogue vendor erodes SRs credibility a tiny little bit and this trend is accelerating because each banned vendor is just coming right back in and ponying up his $500 graft fee.
All 16 followed the same path. They bought a vendor account, made some listings, actually mailed a few small-priced items out, and then the scam is on. The pattern is not hard to discern and the only real weapon against this is a hefty vendor bond.
Step away from fraud for a moment and think about how many vendors you would say are professional? It's less than half for me, and it's these marginal players who come in, get in over their heads and out of anger they decide to break bad.
It does help solve the problem in this case though. Don't FE, and you can't be left empty-handed.
Jesus Christ it's like telling someone 'if you walk in that room you will get raped and there is nothing we can do about it'.. Then they walk in the room, get raped, and then come out crying asking for help when it's already too late.
-
I understand what you are saying and I am going to remain neutral on the subject but I would like to say that it would be a horrible idea for a vendor to provide how they are going to obtain/manufacture, package, ship and launder money on their vendor profile for the world, including law enforcement, to see. I also believe that a $500 bond is far too small but that is just my opinion.
I think OP meant that the potential vendor would explain this to DPR and co. not put it on his page for the world to see.
I like the idea, make it harder even if it is just one thing at a time gradually that would help i believe.
No respectable vendor would ever give up all that information to anyone, that would be very naive if a vendor does that and those are the vendors who get caught sooner or later. Also is sad to see how many people dont seem to understand what Silk Road is about, it sure isn't about using force to make vendors conduct their business a certain way and taking away their freedom to conduct their business as they see fit. SR is not a bureaucracy, DPR is an anarcho capitalist, everyone here should research austrian economics and anarcho capitalism.
People need to do their research before they order and pick a vendor with a good rep period and occasionally things will go wrong but that is the price you pay for freedom, nobody should sacrifice security for freedom bc you will end up losing both in the end.
-
Jesus Christ it's like telling someone 'if you walk in that room you will get raped and there is nothing we can do about it'.. Then they walk in the room, get raped, and then come out crying asking for help when it's already too late.
I think that is the best analogy for this I have ever read on here. Bravo good sir.
-
[quote author=P2P link=topic=166678.msg1192372#msg1192372 date=137021702
I completely understand this viewpoint, and I respect it. I believe there is plenty of room for improvement, though, without disrupting the natural order of things. I suppose it is a bit naive to think you can turn a black market into a civilized exchange of illicit goods, where professionalism is cornerstone. But I believe this was somewhat DPR's vision. That is, to take us off the street; to allow us to obtain our products in a less barbaric, impractical, and expensive manner. Delete the violence and prison bars. I realize for some this is a lifestyle that they are proud to live, but it is not conducive to a stable marketplace and the longevity of the business that occurs there.
[/quote]
This makes the most sense of everything you have stated thus far. ::)
I can agree with the fact that most of the vendors don't have near the amount of need intelligence to function for a long and safe time here. Don't take this as there are none there certainly are some that are more than capable of longevity here and they stick out quite easily if you know what your looking for. ;D
Just as others have stated "fuck the buyers they are supposed to read and learn..." so too the sellers. If they don't take the time to learn what is needed to survive then they don't. As for the point that it puts others a risk, whether it be buyers or sellers, well then they did not do their needed learning in order to protect themselves and it is PLAY at your own risk here. :P
Enjoyed the read P2P, nice writing and thought skills... ;)
@Mr A & ShamelessH, SERIOUS, COMPARED TO BEING RAPED? Not even close!! >:(
-
Although I commend you on your effort to improve the quality of vendors on SR I also think it would be stupid if I was a vendor to hand over they key to my castle so to speak. One thing that I do believe should be implemented that all new Vendors should samples to a Quality Assurance Team designated by SR or by the general public of SR forums. Like maybe long time Forum members who have contributed alot. This way we can assure that the product they plan on selling is authentic and good. I've seen too many times people falling for fake products that are so obvious. One example of this would be 'greendaddy' selling fake pills from India. It's so obvious to me from the pictures that they're fake. However I'm pretty good at finding and researching stuff on the internet. Some people see a good deal, a new vendor and just have faith in them. That's probably the only thin I would like to see implemented into the current Vendor requirements. This would ensure that only authentic and quality products are sold on SR.
-
True that... non disclosure
-
IMO a new vendor must pass a PGP test showing that they know how to use it before getting a vendor account.
-
IMO a new vendor must pass a PGP test showing that they know how to use it before getting a vendor account.
IMO anyone with an IQ of 80 can figure out PGP in under a half hour.
-
IMO anyone with an IQ of 80 can figure out PGP in under a half hour.
For real they;re should be a PGP test before you're allowed to enroll on SR as a buyer or seller, lol... but then again why should SR do that? After all it's your safety if you're risking your freedom by not using PGP. I put off using it for so long cause I kept seeing so many posts with ppl having trouble with it. Took me about a whole 15mins to learn it after reading a very good tutorial by Pine.
-
I believe that people in this game don't just jump into being a vendor without thorough consideration of their own well being, I just don't see it. There are tons and tons of "street" dealers and I believe that the ones without common sense stay there. Just to get to SR takes a little time to figure out. Then you have to figure out BTC. Then you have to figure out PGP. Then you have to figure out how to ship a package. Then you have to figure out time management. Then you have to figure out the bond. Then you have to figure out how to please anonymous people. Then you have to figure out how to repeat. Then, and only then do we get to figure out if you are worth it and possess integrity and do what you type that you will do. Competition is the only ability to control prices, without competition there would be extreme price gouging, which I believe already goes on pretty ramped!! Yes other sites are cheaper but there is nothing like the Road and never will be!
-
Fuck me are you serious?
$500 is the right price and has weeded out the shit, otherwise you will find a mass migration to Atlantis for new vendors and others deterred from starting up vending here altogether as a result of such ridiculous practices.
I find it hypocritical that people who are vendors on here who paid the original price of vendorship such as Limitless want to prevent others from getting a startup on here who may not be as affluent and are trying to build their bankroll or may just have a little extra here and there and you can be rest assured that if they were to charge the price of that as with commissions it would be relayed onto the customer who will be the eventual person to suffer.
Prices won't stop scamming since it will probably do the opposite and instill more confidence in buyers that vendors won't scam them being that they have paid a higher price and the reason it is the price it is is as a deterrent and vendors get it back after X amount of sales anyway.
Fuck some people make me wonder what the fuck they are thinking and it's clear DPR's thought it through thoroughly and $500 the exact right price it should be!
- JWM
-
I wish it was back to 150. 500 is pretty steep.
Besides, the protections are in place if a vendor gets in for free or pays 5000 dollars. It changes nothing. Don't finalize early. Get your product, inspect it, then finalize. How the hell could you get scammed that way?
SR needs an update in design to be more user friendly. There should be lots and lots of warnings about FE...
-
Fuck me are you serious?
$500 is the right price and has weeded out the shit, otherwise you will find a mass migration to Atlantis for new vendors and others deterred from starting up vending here altogether as a result of such ridiculous practices.
I find it hypocritical that people who are vendors on here who paid the original price of vendorship such as Limitless want to prevent others from getting a startup on here who may not be as affluent and are trying to build their bankroll or may just have a little extra here and there and you can be rest assured that if they were to charge the price of that as with commissions it would be relayed onto the customer who will be the eventual person to suffer.
Prices won't stop scamming since it will probably do the opposite and instill more confidence in buyers that vendors won't scam them being that they have paid a higher price and the reason it is the price it is is as a deterrent and vendors get it back after X amount of sales anyway.
Fuck some people make me wonder what the fuck they are thinking and it's clear DPR's thought it through thoroughly and $500 the exact right price it should be!
- JWM
You need to learn how to right a persuasive essay. Before you say this isn't an essay, the same concepts apply.
Limitless didn't pay $500, he only paid $150 as he was here before the change. In the beginning it was free to be a vendor and anyone could sell anything, thus making that account a vendor account. Anybody who'd LISTED anything prior to the change was grandfathered into a vendor account.
Yeah, DPR has thought it through, but he has thought it through numerous times and revised it at least three times. Why do you think that is? Maybe it's a work in progress like this entire place. Where did he get the idea that it should maybe be changed? By people talking about it and hashing out problems. DPR is likely on the forums quite often, just not posting. I'd assume that's where he gets ideas about how to fix things or make them better.
-
Fuck me are you serious?
$500 is the right price and has weeded out the shit, otherwise you will find a mass migration to Atlantis for new vendors and others deterred from starting up vending here altogether as a result of such ridiculous practices.
I find it hypocritical that people who are vendors on here who paid the original price of vendorship such as Limitless want to prevent others from getting a startup on here who may not be as affluent and are trying to build their bankroll or may just have a little extra here and there and you can be rest assured that if they were to charge the price of that as with commissions it would be relayed onto the customer who will be the eventual person to suffer.
Prices won't stop scamming since it will probably do the opposite and instill more confidence in buyers that vendors won't scam them being that they have paid a higher price and the reason it is the price it is is as a deterrent and vendors get it back after X amount of sales anyway.
Fuck some people make me wonder what the fuck they are thinking and it's clear DPR's thought it through thoroughly and $500 the exact right price it should be!
- JWM
You need to learn how to right a persuasive essay. Before you say this isn't an essay, the same concepts apply.
Limitless didn't pay $500, he only paid $150 as he was here before the change. In the beginning it was free to be a vendor and anyone could sell anything, thus making that account a vendor account. Anybody who'd LISTED anything prior to the change was grandfathered into a vendor account.
Yeah, DPR has thought it through, but he has thought it through numerous times and revised it at least three times. Why do you think that is? Maybe it's a work in progress like this entire place. Where did he get the idea that it should maybe be changed? By people talking about it and hashing out problems. DPR is likely on the forums quite often, just not posting. I'd assume that's where he gets ideas about how to fix things or make them better.
First of all I'm not trying to persuade anyone, Lim paid $130 possibly less since he's been here longer and further more who the fuck are you to talk to me like I'm some sort of SR n00binator I've been here since the beginning which I would wager was well before you butt-dumpling?
Go talk down to some n00b and GTFO of quoting my comments like I give a fuck what you have to say cuntey I never asked for your opinion or criticism and won't be spoken to like I'm an idiot!
- JWM
-
I believe that people in this game don't just jump into being a vendor without thorough consideration of their own well being, I just don't see it. There are tons and tons of "street" dealers and I believe that the ones without common sense stay there. Just to get to SR takes a little time to figure out. Then you have to figure out BTC. Then you have to figure out PGP. Then you have to figure out how to ship a package. Then you have to figure out time management. Then you have to figure out the bond. Then you have to figure out how to please anonymous people. Then you have to figure out how to repeat. Then, and only then do we get to figure out if you are worth it and possess integrity and do what you type that you will do. Competition is the only ability to control prices, without competition there would be extreme price gouging, which I believe already goes on pretty ramped!! Yes other sites are cheaper but there is nothing like the Road and never will be!
I beg to differ, I find Atlantis is on par with SR and actually surpasses it in some ways except it has no where near the traffic for the obvious reasons. I think there are a few things they have on that site that should have already been implemented here such as Litecoin and also automatic PGP encryption among others since if SR had LTC it would skyrocket the value IMO.
My $0.02!
- JWM
-
Fuck me are you serious?
$500 is the right price and has weeded out the shit, otherwise you will find a mass migration to Atlantis for new vendors and others deterred from starting up vending here altogether as a result of such ridiculous practices.
I find it hypocritical that people who are vendors on here who paid the original price of vendorship such as Limitless want to prevent others from getting a startup on here who may not be as affluent and are trying to build their bankroll or may just have a little extra here and there and you can be rest assured that if they were to charge the price of that as with commissions it would be relayed onto the customer who will be the eventual person to suffer.
Prices won't stop scamming since it will probably do the opposite and instill more confidence in buyers that vendors won't scam them being that they have paid a higher price and the reason it is the price it is is as a deterrent and vendors get it back after X amount of sales anyway.
Fuck some people make me wonder what the fuck they are thinking and it's clear DPR's thought it through thoroughly and $500 the exact right price it should be!
- JWM
You need to learn how to right a persuasive essay. Before you say this isn't an essay, the same concepts apply.
Limitless didn't pay $500, he only paid $150 as he was here before the change. In the beginning it was free to be a vendor and anyone could sell anything, thus making that account a vendor account. Anybody who'd LISTED anything prior to the change was grandfathered into a vendor account.
Yeah, DPR has thought it through, but he has thought it through numerous times and revised it at least three times. Why do you think that is? Maybe it's a work in progress like this entire place. Where did he get the idea that it should maybe be changed? By people talking about it and hashing out problems. DPR is likely on the forums quite often, just not posting. I'd assume that's where he gets ideas about how to fix things or make them better.
First of all I'm not trying to persuade anyone, Lim paid $130 possibly less since he's been here longer and further more who the fuck are you to talk to me like I'm some sort of SR n00binator I've been here since the beginning which I would wager was well before you butt-dumpling?
Go talk down to some n00b and GTFO of quoting my comments like I give a fuck what you have to say cuntey I never asked for your opinion or criticism and won't be spoken to like I'm an idiot!
- JWM
You're not trying to persuade anyone? Did you read what you initially wrote? Also, why do you have to be insultory, derogatory, and reduce yourself to name calling? I'm kinda embarrassed for you.
Lim only paid $130? Is that so? Where did you get that information. The price for a vendor account has never been $130. Well just looking at basic profile information, it would appear you are the most recent to join. I joined the forum more than a full year before you did and my associated account on the market has been around for well over 2 years now. In fact, it looks like you haven't even been a member for a single year.
Have you read the last utterance you wrote here? It's not a sentence or even an intelligible thought.
I don't enjoy 'talking down to people', let alone 'n00bs'. You'd like me to 'Get the fuck out' of 'quoting' your 'comments'? You mean, you would prefer if I didn't quote you so you can delete your posts after you've realized how foolish and juvenile you've been? I don't care if you 'give a fuck what I think'. 'Cuntey' isn't a word, but if a person did want to use incorrect grammar and alter the foul word 'cunt' to an adjective or an impolite reference to a person, the proper way to conjugate it would be 'cunty'.
You're right, you never asked for my opinion or criticism. I'm freely offering my opinion, and my 'criticism' is really just me pointing out how dumb what you're saying is. You've made several conjectures about other's motives and are generally just making an ass of yourself(note: I'm not being derogatory, just making an observation/describing your behavior).
Well, I didn't think I was talking to you as if you were an idiot. However, saying that you won't be talked to like an idiot can't possibly be a true statement. Perhaps what you mean is that you won't put up with being spoken to like an idiot? Well, how do you plan on enforcing that? It just seems a ridiculously amusing amalgam of things to attempt to jumble or group together.
Oh, perhaps you could explain how a 'n00b' like me has a user ID of 2,517, and an old hand who's "been here since the beginning" has a user ID of 43,908?