Silk Road forums

Market => Product offers => Topic started by: PuertoRico on May 16, 2013, 12:21 pm

Title: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: PuertoRico on May 16, 2013, 12:21 pm
So my mate sells on SR, he hasnt hit the 200 sales mark yet think he is close to 100, but cleared the $3000 mark very quickly and the account is 2 months old so he has had the sellers bond refunded and has 100% positive feedback. 5 out of 5 from every buyer including any refunded customers whose packages didnt make it or were reshipped etc...

We were discussing this at the pub and came up with a few key points -

Firstly who ever bought the account would not have to proof themselves using the seller bond as an asset to SR so this could encourage a scammer to buy the account and use the feedback to his advantage. (this could be avoided by only selling the account to trusted forum members) Again nobody FE's anyway not without doing a lot of trust buys and has the products would change it would be like a fresh start.

Secondly account history if LE bought the account the withdrawl information or original purchaser of the sellers bond? Not sure on this maybe it all is wiped after a certain time. Either way all private messaging would be wiped, sent and received. The account would have to announce it is for sale for a while to make sure fans are aware of this, he only has 30-50 fans. (not sure if this matters because of product changes)

So main problems are security issues for the original owner of the account and future buyers, but I have seen people state that their friend has taken over their account (Tunbear for example) so it does happen..

Reason for sale is just lack of sales really, it didnt really kick off like he imagined and his paranoia has got to a level where his mental health cant handle it. I advised him to sell the account as surely an account with 100% positive feedback has a value to it? Thats when we began to discuss the points raised above.

Thoughts please, I guess if someone trustworthy bought it, then it would be ok or another vendor? Then again what would it be worth? Would SR staff be happy about this? I am not sure..
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: Libertas on May 16, 2013, 12:30 pm
This was originally against the rules, but it's recently been clarified for me that this is now permitted, though ALL sales of ANY items or services must take place through the Silk Road ordering system on the main site.

A listing must be made on Silk Road for the vendor account that is for sale if your friend wishes to sell it.

MOVING: to Product Offers

Libertas
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: PuertoRico on May 16, 2013, 12:39 pm
Ok so he would list product under services or whatever - account for sale.

Take the payment but how could the escrow be released to my friend, as the buyer of the account would want the password and withdrawl code to work before releasing funds? or could this just be monitered by SR staff in resolution centre if it went wrong.

Alternatively I guess payment could be made to a new buyers account to give who ever purchases the account immediate access to the account but that would bypass the escrow but could be monitered by SR? A little confused on how this would take place using the escrow service.

What would you value a sellers account at? 100% feedback etc.. 

Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: Libertas on May 16, 2013, 01:36 pm
Ok so he would list product under services or whatever - account for sale.

Take the payment but how could the escrow be released to my friend, as the buyer of the account would want the password and withdrawl code to work before releasing funds? or could this just be monitered by SR staff in resolution centre if it went wrong.

Alternatively I guess payment could be made to a new buyers account to give who ever purchases the account immediate access to the account but that would bypass the escrow but could be monitered by SR? A little confused on how this would take place using the escrow service.

What would you value a sellers account at? 100% feedback etc..

I don't know how one would go about selling it; it would presumably have to be done through another vendor account - possibly if another vendor were to offer to oversee the sale, though they would then be leaving themselves liable if something goes wrong.

NO sales are permitted without going through the Silk Road order system - they MUST go through escrow.

I wouldn't offer to put a value on a seller's account at all as I don't really agree with selling them from a security perspective; from a libertarian perspective they should of course be allowed for sale, but there is just too much risk for buyers to be scammed when somebody buys an established vendor account. That being said, every person is responsible for their own actions, and if they choose to FE for an established vendor account despite knowing they could get scammed at any time, that is their own decision. We already recommend people stay within the safety of the escrow system, but if they wish to ignore those recommendations and they get burned, it is their own problem as there will be nothing Silk Road can do.

I would also like to state that a vendor account on Silk Road is essentially free as the $500 payment is a bond - not a fee - which is refundable when the terms of said bond are met.

Libertas
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: PuertoRico on May 16, 2013, 01:46 pm
Thanks for the info..

It is a difficult one and maybe pointless just seems a shame for an account to go to waste but I guess that doesnt really matter.

All I can think is it would have to FE for buying the account the funds then are moved to a new buyers account and held there until the new owner of the account is happy. I know this isnt official escrow but atleast that way the funds are still in the system and can easily be taken back via the resolution centre if the buyer isnt able to login. (another seller could list it etc but this may add complications)

As you said an account is essentially free, so really its just the feedback of the account thats worth anything and that wouldnt really be worth anything once the account changes hands.. so really the buyer of the account gets the account name, some fans (who will need re-convincing and some feedback that will need re-proving)

Cant be worth too much really can it.. but it would relief the mental stress and paranoia my mate is going through so maybe he can just practically give it away or take offers. I'll discuss all this with him further.
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: Libertas on May 16, 2013, 02:05 pm
All I can think is it would have to FE for buying the account the funds then are moved to a new buyers account and held there until the new owner of the account is happy. I know this isnt official escrow but atleast that way the funds are still in the system and can easily be taken back via the resolution centre if the buyer isnt able to login. (another seller could list it etc but this may add complications)

If a buyer chooses to FE against our recommendations that is their choice, but funds cannot be taken back once a buyer finalises on an order. Silk Road does NOT get involved in situations where buyers make the ridiculous decision to FE. One a buyer finalises, the possibility of taking the situation to resolution is impossible as the transaction is considered finalised (item has been received and the buyer is 100% satisfied with it) - hence 'finalise'.

As you said an account is essentially free, so really its just the feedback of the account thats worth anything and that wouldnt really be worth anything once the account changes hands.. so really the buyer of the account gets the account name, some fans (who will need re-convincing and some feedback that will need re-proving)

Cant be worth too much really can it.. but it would relief the mental stress and paranoia my mate is going through so maybe he can just practically give it away or take offers. I'll discuss all this with him further.

Why doesn't your friend just complete all current orders (if any), take down all listings, go into stealth mode and forget about it? ???

Libertas
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: Tellemetree on May 16, 2013, 02:18 pm
Is there any way at all that the potential buyer will be vetted to ensure they aren't just going to immediately scam 30 times the amount.

All it does is allow the new buyer to fool potential customers, I don't see any real upside here for SR as a whole.

Sets a shitty precedent imho.

I get it might not break the rules, but unless its declared its a new owner (and then there is no real value) then its only upside to the new owner is to scam or mislead, right?

Am I missing the point here?
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: Libertas on May 16, 2013, 02:30 pm
Is there any way at all that the potential buyer will be vetted to ensure they aren't just going to immediately scam 30 times the amount.

All it does is allow the new buyer to fool potential customers, I don't see any real upside here for SR as a whole.

Sets a shitty precedent imho.

I get it might not break the rules, but unless its declared its a new owner (and then there is no real value) then its only upside to the new owner is to scam or mislead, right?

Am I missing the point here?

As far as I know, no, potential buyers will not be vetted. It goes against the unregulated nature of the free market to regulate the sale of accounts, so I presume that is why it is allowed here, and I fully agree with that. From a security point of view it is a bad idea, but everyone is responsible for their own security and risks that they wish to take. Some may argue that it could cause harm to people, but so can a drug overdose; both have legitimate uses rather than their intent being to cause harm, so neither are restricted.

I fully agree with you that it's fraught with risk for buyers, but Silk Road recommends that buyers do not Finalise Early. If they choose to do so despite those recommendations, who is at fault but themselves when they fall for a FE scam? ??? Personal responsibility is a prerequisite for operating in a free market. People need to take responsibility for their own actions, and not blame their misfortunes on the actions of others when there is an escrow system put in place to mitigate the risk of such misfortune.

Libertas
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: Tellemetree on May 16, 2013, 02:39 pm
Is there any way at all that the potential buyer will be vetted to ensure they aren't just going to immediately scam 30 times the amount.

All it does is allow the new buyer to fool potential customers, I don't see any real upside here for SR as a whole.

Sets a shitty precedent imho.

I get it might not break the rules, but unless its declared its a new owner (and then there is no real value) then its only upside to the new owner is to scam or mislead, right?

Am I missing the point here?

As far as I know, no, potential buyers will not be vetted. It goes against the unregulated nature of the free market to regulate the sale of accounts, so I presume that is why it is allowed here, and I fully agree with that. From a security point of view it is a bad idea, but everyone is responsible for their own security and risks that they wish to take. Some may argue that it could cause harm to people, but so can a drug overdose; both have legitimate uses rather than their intent being to cause harm, so neither are restricted.

I fully agree with you that it's fraught with risk for buyers, but Silk Road recommends that buyers do not Finalise Early. If they choose to do so despite those recommendations, who is at fault but themselves when they fall for a FE scam? ??? Personal responsibility is a prerequisite for operating in a free market. People need to take responsibility for their own actions, and not blame their misfortunes on the actions of others when there is an escrow system put in place to mitigate the risk of such misfortune.

Libertas

You see what I mean though Libertas, right?

There is no need for a legit vendor to pay a premium and get past the rules, only legit purpose I can see it to scam.

FE rules aside, I know thats correct, but, reality is this sort of thing WILL catch newbies. We all know that.

I think rep and good feedback and so on is something a vendor should have to EARN and it counts for alot in decision making on the buyers part. Most vendors are PROUD of having good stats and to know they could just buy those same stats (a years hard work say) for a few hundred bucks kind of undermines the whole thing imho.

Sucks you can't do anything to prevent it as it seems you fundamentally agree.
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: Libertas on May 16, 2013, 03:11 pm
You see what I mean though Libertas, right?

There is no need for a legit vendor to pay a premium and get past the rules, only legit purpose I can see it to scam.

FE rules aside, I know thats correct, but, reality is this sort of thing WILL catch newbies. We all know that.

I think rep and good feedback and so on is something a vendor should have to EARN and it counts for alot in decision making on the buyers part. Most vendors are PROUD of having good stats and to know they could just buy those same stats (a years hard work say) for a few hundred bucks kind of undermines the whole thing imho.

Sucks you can't do anything to prevent it as it seems you fundamentally agree.

I do completely see where you're coming from, but at the same time, when you start regulating a free market, where do you stop?! It becomes a very slippery slope. :-\

Yes, this sort of thing likely will catch newbies; however, as I stated, each and every person here is responsible for their own actions - whether they are new members or not.
DPR's welcome message (http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/about) even states:

Quote
Always use the escrow system! This can't be stressed enough. 99% of scams are from people who set up fake vendor accounts and ask buyers to pay them directly or release payment before their order arrives. This behavior should be reported immediately. If you do choose to do this, we will be completely unable to help you in the event of fraud.

So whilst I fully agree with you from a security and anti-scam perspective, I fully agree with DPR from a libertarian perspective; the latter must always take precedent over the former: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Libertas
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: PuertoRico on May 16, 2013, 03:14 pm
for the hassle its worth, the paranoia its caused, it seems a much smarter move to just take the listings down (once orders are complete) and forget about it. It does seem that its only going to cause trouble for an account that cant really be worth anything to anyone but a scammer who is trying to bypass the bond.

For those reasons wdf is the point, fuck scammers no way im going to allow anyone to help potential scammers.

One last question actually, how long until the account is just deleted?

*if put into stealth with no activity, no listings and no logging in? just so to know its gone for good would help him. (basically dont deal in real life and SR if your not pro enough the paranoia will kill your soul as I am seing in a friend I hold dearly to me so really gota sort this out for him)


Thanks for all the input, I will pass the information on. Cheers
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: Libertas on May 16, 2013, 03:26 pm
for the hassle its worth, the paranoia its caused, it seems a much smarter move to just take the listings down (once orders are complete) and forget about it. It does seem that its only going to cause trouble for an account that cant really be worth anything to anyone but a scammer who is trying to bypass the bond.

For those reasons wdf is the point, fuck scammers no way im going to allow anyone to help potential scammers.

One last question actually, how long until the account is just deleted?

*if put into stealth with no activity, no listings and no logging in? just so to know its gone for good would help him. (basically dont deal in real life and SR if your not pro enough the paranoia will kill your soul as I am seing in a friend I hold dearly to me so really gota sort this out for him)


Thanks for all the input, I will pass the information on. Cheers

The SR Wiki has this to say on the matter:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/wiki/index.php?title=Frequently_Asked_Questions#Will_my_account_be_deleted_for_inactivity.3F

Quote
Will my account be deleted for inactivity?

Accounts with zero balance will be archived if not logged into for several months. If you suspect your account has been archived, try creating a new user with the same name. If you cannot, then the account still exists.

A former vendor just brought the issue up today in support though, a topic which you can find here:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=160157.0

Libertas
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: PuertoRico on May 16, 2013, 03:30 pm
Thanks again. Everyone who inputted to this, especially Libertas. You have been a great help.

Thread finished here really. I will book mark the links and give them a read.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: Libertas on May 16, 2013, 03:43 pm
Thanks again. Everyone who inputted to this, especially Libertas. You have been a great help.

Thread finished here really. I will book mark the links and give them a read.

Cheers.

You're very welcome! :)

Libertas
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: scout on May 16, 2013, 04:30 pm
To clarify - this has never been against the rules.  Past moderators were incorrect on this, and that lead the rest of us to think it was prohibited as well, but upon clarification from DPR and inigo, it has apparently always been allowed.
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: Libertas on May 16, 2013, 04:48 pm
To clarify - this has never been against the rules.  Past moderators were incorrect on this, and that lead the rest of us to think it was prohibited as well, but upon clarification from DPR and inigo, it has apparently always been allowed.

Thanks for the clarification, scout! Though I could've sworn I read in the original Seller's contract back in early 2012 that sale of SR accounts was not permitted.. Hmmm.. Maybe I'm just getting too old!! :-X
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: bbbaac on May 16, 2013, 04:54 pm
dont you think this would just increase scammin on the site.....
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: scout on May 16, 2013, 04:58 pm
dont you think this would just increase scammin on the site.....

Yes, it absolutely could, but we aren't the ones who make the rules.
Title: Re: Vendor account for sale, if you Ccan you sell a vendors account?
Post by: Libertas on May 16, 2013, 05:10 pm
dont you think this would just increase scammin on the site.....

Please see my earlier post in this very thread:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=160406.msg1134072#msg1134072

Libertas