Silk Road forums
Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: AverageDude84 on May 15, 2013, 07:48 am
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Just something I've been mulling over and thinking about, I'm sure somebody would probably have a clear cut answer so I thought I'd ask!
1) Navigating to the website?
2) Creating an account on the website?
3) Depositing BTC's into your account on the website?
4) Placing an order / the exchange of currency for an illegal substance?
5) Only when the illegal substances are in your possession?
I understand this may be highly subjective to different countries / states and whatnot, for arguments sake lets say under your own jurisdiction (as this is most likely where you will have the most knowledge).
Again for arguments sake, let's say you were under constant video surveillance by the LE which was unbeknownst to you!
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+1 Great question! I've often wondered that myself. Would love a qualified answer
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Im in no way 'qualified', but if i had to put my self in the laws shoes, id say its the moment you make a buy.
Yes, im sure technically, by buying coin and registering, your some how guilty of attempt of some sort, but with out making a buy, you havnt actually broke the law.
In any case, i wouldnt worry, unless your buys are very large and or frequent, in which case you would have to tighten up your operation and never cut a single corner on anonymity and precautions safety measures. Much love.
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+1
I'd like someone to give an answer to this! Would be good to know.
I doubt the first 3 would be illegal unless tor or BTC were illegal in your country.
I've always wondered if it is making an order or getting the illegal substance. I'd probably say making an order since police often have illegal porn honey pots which would never actually distribute illegal porn but attempting to access it seems to be a crime. I think it would be similar here.
Hope someone can give a good answer!
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Legally, there is no law against navigating the internet except for CP. That is really the only material that is outright criminal.
Now, there are people on the far Right (think Bush Administration, but don't neglect high ranking officials under Obama that wanna make a name for themselves) that feel that logging onto SR constitutes a crime. While they may think this--and might even convince an AG or prosecutor to back their totalitarian thinking--this is NOT a crime.
Visiting a website out of curiosity is a freedom of speech. Books have not been outlawed. I can legally own texts and handbooks on military grade explosives, molestation, kidnapping, murder, etc.... Every criminal investigator, at one point, has done the same thing as a student in college or as a professional in their career. Curious people also do the same thing.
Do you know how many teenagers own a copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook? Probably in the tens of thousands. The crime begins when you start making threats to other people or authorities, or when you start making bombs.
Ordering from SR? No, this is not a crime, because there are at least a 100 items on SR that are not criminalized.
This is when it gets sticky, however.
1. Do authorities know what you order? Possibly. It is not likely that they care who you are if you're buying an ounce or less at a time. QP and up might start raising flags, but this is still IF they have hacked or intercepted SR traffic. If SR is run by the CIA, they are not required to report their intelligence to anyone but the president....
2. Have they intercepted your mail? You probably won't know, unless packages don't show up. In which case, you might wanna invest your time in an airtight scrimmage where mail does not arrive at your personal address. Or just take a break for 6 months until you feel safe again, but that doesn't mean you haven't been listed and put into a file.
3. Federal authorities are more concerned with high profile cases. They have a career to protect, which is the nice thing about federales. They are predictable, most of the time, and their arrogance makes them dangerously stupid. Remember also that at the federal level, there is so much political bullshit, that it makes bureaucracy look like a fast food service.
4. Internet security. If you are having second thoughts about your safety and legality, then you might want to balance the paranoia by learning more about computer security: encryption, GPG/PGP, TOR, firewalls, etc....
Good Luck.
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In the UK, it would be at the moment you are depositing bitcoins into your SilkRoad account as this shows a clear step towards intending to purchase and as such you can be charged with conspiracy to import a controlled substance. How it turns out in court will be another matter all-together though.
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In the UK, it would be at the moment you are depositing bitcoins into your SilkRoad account as this shows a clear step towards intending to purchase and as such you can be charged with conspiracy to import a controlled substance. How it turns out in court will be another matter all-together though.
I'm not so sure on that, StExo; Silk Road is simply a marketplace - it is not solely a drug marketplace (nor was it intended to be solely drug marketplace!) and there are legal items for sale on it. This situation would be similar to logging on to a site such as eBay if it had it's own wallet system: even though there may be items that are illegal in your jurisdiction (stun-guns, firearms etc.) simply loading your eBay account with funds would not be breaking the law.
Actually adding an illegal item to your cart (or showing intent to purchase it in any other way) would *imply* intent to import a controlled item, though it would not *prove* intent so they wouldn't win in court. I think that an actual "crime" is committed (as in one they could actually prosecute for) once you have hit the 'place order' button and purchased an item that is illegal in your jurisdiction, or sent an address for delivery of same, as that would constitute direct intent to import a controlled item.
Libertas
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In the UK, it would be at the moment you are depositing bitcoins into your SilkRoad account as this shows a clear step towards intending to purchase and as such you can be charged with conspiracy to import a controlled substance. How it turns out in court will be another matter all-together though.
I'm not so sure on that, StExo; Silk Road is simply a marketplace - it is not solely a drug marketplace (nor was it intended to be solely drug marketplace!) and there are legal items for sale on it. This situation would be similar to logging on to a site such as eBay if it had it's own wallet system: even though there may be items that are illegal in your jurisdiction (stun-guns, firearms etc.) simply loading your eBay account with funds to would not be breaking the law.
Actually adding an illegal item to your cart (or showing intent to purchase it in any other way) would *imply* intent to import a controlled item, though it would not *prove* intent so they wouldn't win in court. I think that an actual "crime" is committed (as in one they could actually prosecute for) once you have hit the 'place order' button and purchased an item that is illegal in your jurisdiction, or sent an address for delivery of same, as that would constitute direct intent to import a controlled item.
Libertas
Agreed - although technically, I reckon if you load your account with BTC with the sole intention of buying some illegal drugs, then you are breaking the law at that point. You're both right, depending on how you interpret it - because there is no way to prove in court that you had intended to use the BTC in that manner. But still, thats intent, I think.
If, hypothetically, you wrote some dumbass status on your facebook (and shame on your for using facebook, hypothetical person) beforehand, saying "OFF TO BUY SOME BTC TO GET SOME DRUGS ON SILK ROAD LOLZ", then loaded your account with BTC, then got caught even before the purchase... that would probably be enough for a legal slap on the wrist...
Im just splitting hairs though because im bored ;)
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That's where I note the reasoning of whether it stands in court. See taking a significant quantity of cash to meet a dealer who possesses drugs is enough for conviction in court, it's happened many times before. Now the law is the law and they still must prove guilt, but it is not what is on show with the movies about some tiny "what if" scenario, it is merely beyond reasonable doubt so yes, you may purchase some things legally here, PlutoPete is a good example of a wide variety of legal items - but it gets difficult at that stage because if they can prove you have funded the account, you're going to have to show somehow it was not your intention to purchase illegal items since most items here are readily available elsewhere at a more reasonable cost.
At the end of the day, although SilkRoad is a marketplace, it is an illegal one here in the UK so at the same time, accessing it is not illegal nor is browsing, but it's use will contribute towards facilitation.
I don't know if you're from the UK Libertas, but there have been a string of high profile operations in recent years whereby people have been charged and found guilty on very loose definitions of the term intention or significant step towards it unfortunately. I've had my own nasty run-ins with the law before and they really do go to some extreme lengths to place a charge on your head when they have little proof and the fact that bitcoins are a new concept, especially if put before a court of law, leaves plenty of influence which could be exerted over the judges and jury so having a lawyer unfamiliar with how bitcoins and Tor work will make your case very hard to defend.
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Damn good question Id say if they can link account to you directly (which is hard for them to do) then any purchase of something illegal in the district you live in and the address you provided for shipping.
Otherwise it is probably the moment when you realize what was in your package is not something you ordered. I suppose someone could send a package to their neighbor intending to get it without them knowing, but if the neighbor gets there first he has still not committed a crime, even if he opens the package and turns it into LE immediately he would probably not be found guilty of a crime, if they even charged.
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As far as I am aware, in the UK (and probably the US too) it is only illegal to sell or to possess drugs, but it is not illegal to buy them (which is why if you got busted during a deal the buyer would get a charge for 'possession' and the dealer would get a charge for dealing). It's also not illegal to actually take drugs, so if you get caught after you got high they can't charge you (unless it was DUI or summink)...
So, to answer the OP, it becomes illegal when you become a seller or when you take possession of the drugs. At least, AFAIK....
Check out drugscope [clearnet] - http://www.drugscope.org.uk/resources/faqs/faqpages/what-are-the-uk-drug-laws
Offences under the Misuse of Drugs Act can include:
Possession of a controlled drug.
Possession with intent to supply another person.
Production, cultivation or manufacture of controlled drugs.
Supplying another person with a controlled drug.
Offering to supply another person with a controlled drug.
Import or export of controlled drugs.
Allowing premises you occupy or manage to be used for the consumption of certain controlled drugs (smoking of cannabis or opium but not use of other controlled drugs) or supply or production of any controlled drug.
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I study legal theory and I will try to give a brief answer. In legalism the term or action that is deemed illegal is possession, importation and manufacturing. Manufacturing is the growing of cannabis, importation is the vendors mailing it and possessing is once and only once the buyer possesses the product. Any stage before possession is completely legal (the purchasing of bitcoins, registering on SR). Within the law the word "consumption" is not written anywhere. That's how celebrities and politicians can openly admit to doing drugs in the past, without any repercussions.
Controlled deliveries are a way for police to catch you possessing the drug, that's why all the other stages are legal or they would have nabbed you for it.
Tor is legal. SR is legal to browse (think of researchers), legal to obtain and trade in btc's, etc.
Theoretically purchasing would be illegal if it could indisputably be proven that you placed an order because you "conspired to import drugs, with or without intent to supply" so you could be done with importation and intent to supply which are two big strikes in the law books. But this stage can't practically be proven either way because of the anonymous nature of TOR.
So to answer your question technically purchasing is the illegal stage but would be very difficult to prove in court. In order to prosecute you police must catch you in possession through controlled delivery, or another technique. So play it smart and you won't have any issues.
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I study legal theory and I will try to give a brief answer. In legalism the term or action that is deemed illegal is possession, importation and manufacturing. Manufacturing is the growing of cannabis, importation is the vendors mailing it and possessing is once and only once the buyer possesses the product. Any stage before possession is completely legal (the purchasing of bitcoins, registering on SR). Within the law the word "consumption" is not written anywhere. That's how celebrities and politicians can openly admit to doing drugs in the past, without any repercussions.
<SNIP>
So to answer your question technically purchasing is the illegal stage but would be very difficult to prove in court. In order to prosecute you police must catch you in possession through controlled delivery, or another technique. So play it smart and you won't have any issues.
That is until they tack the word conspiracy onto the front of any of it.
Such as
Conspiracy to traffic in a controlled substance
Conspiracy to manufacture a controlled substance
etc
etc
See, one word and you do not even have to have the item. ::)
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That is until they tack the word conspiracy onto the front of any of it.
Such as
Conspiracy to traffic in a controlled substance
Conspiracy to manufacture a controlled substance
etc
etc
See, one word and you do not even have to have the item. ::)
Spot on there, which is where the terms "Reasonable step towards" and "Clear intention" come into play. You may still be charged for ANY crime for taking reasonable steps towards doing.
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They could arrest us all for conspiracy right now just for being on the forums or marketplace. :-X
Fuck LEO and his little bitch RICO
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I will answer this question as a law school drop out, I did take Criminal Law too :p
Anyway.....
The answer to your question is all of the above, but it depends....
Navigating to SR could be enough, IF, it could be proved your intent was to purchase drugs when you got there.... As could creating a membership, or getting your BTC..
Conspiracy charges require a PLAN to do something illegal, with an overt act toward accomplishing this goal.
The last two, placing the order, and receiving the contraband are both beyond the conspiracy stage, however, the laws at current are not written with anything like SR in mind. Typically when one exchanges money for drugs, he comes into possession of the drugs immediately, or shortly there after. Here is where a good defense attorney would make a difference for you.
Getting caught with the drugs in your possession, is the same as if you had bought them from your friend down the road or on here its the same...
So, in summation, theoretically, all are illegal, if your intent is to buy drugs with the site, actually making the exchange is illegal also.
But here is where the rubber meets the road, only the last one, where you get caught with the drugs, is the only one where realistically you would get into trouble. The other ones there is just very little way to prove it.
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What is illegal doesn't matter.
What they can prove and what can get you in trouble is what matters.
Having this in mind: Don't sign for any packages and don't go and pick them up from the post office.
If you have a large quantity of drugs, do not keep them at your house.
Don't get caught with drugs on yourself (this is not just silkroad related but applies to everything involving drugs so this is pretty clear)
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Thank you all for the replies, this has been an extremely interesting read so far. I asked the question out of pure naivety and curiosity so I haven't replied, as I have had nothing to contribute to what others have said.
Thought I'd chuck a quick reply and if I work out how to give / receive karma some of these posts would definitely be receiving some!
It sounds like a tech savvy defense attorney who put a lot of time into learning about Tor, SR and bitcoins could make quite the bundle of money if anything did happen to SR and their clients were somehow caught pre-possession.
Another question:
Do conspiracy charges generally carry the same weight of the law as committing the conspired activities themselves?
Again, thanks for the replies.
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Thanks for the qualified opinions, ArmTrax and sharonneedles! Much appeciated. +1!
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Just something I've been mulling over and thinking about, I'm sure somebody would probably have a clear cut answer so I thought I'd ask!
1) Navigating to the website?
2) Creating an account on the website?
3) Depositing BTC's into your account on the website?
4) Placing an order / the exchange of currency for an illegal substance?
5) Only when the illegal substances are in your possession?
I understand this may be highly subjective to different countries / states and whatnot, for arguments sake lets say under your own jurisdiction (as this is most likely where you will have the most knowledge).
Again for arguments sake, let's say you were under constant video surveillance by the LE which was unbeknownst to you!
Only when you get convicted of a crime is the committed act deemed illegal.